Diver Qualification by Schools

[Gordon Archer]

From what I understand of diver qualifictions within BSAC, it is only the Ocean Diver grade that can be signed off in the divers Blue qualification book by the dive school system.
All other grades can only be signed off by a BSAC club Diving Officer, after being satisfied all elements of the course have been covered and appoved by instructor or SDC signatures.

I have come across several occasions where a diving school in Malta has signed off the Sports diver grade for divers who have taken some training dives with them.
(Please note I have nothing against divers taking outside club training). But for the dive school in question to qualify the divers takes away some fundamental checks that only can be made at the club level.(Club fees, BSAC current membership, etc).

This dive school in Malta use the fact that they can qualify BSAC Ocean Divers so can qualify other grades as well.

Is this true?
Have the rules changed?

[david lisk]

Looking at the BSAC web page

<a href="http://www.bsac.com/learn/scgrade1.htm" >http://www.bsac.com/learn/scgrade1.htm</a>

it would appear BSAC schools can offer Ocean diver, Sport Diver and SDC's.

I have also seen some UK schools offering Dive leader and Advanced diver.

Regards,

David



From what I understand of diver qualifictions within BSAC, it is only the Ocean Diver grade that can be signed off in the divers Blue qualification book by the dive school system.
All other grades can only be signed off by a BSAC club Diving Officer, after being satisfied all elements of the course have been covered and appoved by instructor or SDC signatures.

I have come across several occasions where a diving school in Malta has signed off the Sports diver grade for divers who have taken some training dives with them.
(Please note I have nothing against divers taking outside club training). But for the dive school in question to qualify the divers takes away some fundamental checks that only can be made at the club level.(Club fees, BSAC current membership, etc).

This dive school in Malta use the fact that they can qualify BSAC Ocean Divers so can qualify other grades as well.

Is this true?
Have the rules changed?

[Mike Halligan]

I have also seen some UK schools offering Dive leader and Advanced diver.


Unless things have changed dramatically in the last 6 years (and for part of that time I was an Acting DO and know that they didn't), then schools can offer the instruction but the DO awards the qualification after such quality asurance as (s)he may wish to impose. [NB: I am =not= saying what is or is not reasonable]

At the time I went down this route, some DOs went so far as to oblige the student to repeat the theory test and all the practicals. This caused some schools to open associated Special Branches for their students. Others took the school chief instructor's signature at face value (often because they'd met him/her). The middle course was a checkout dive, only what would be given a DL or AD arriving from another Branch. Which reminds me, I'm diving with my then DO this weekend, I wonder what he wants me to do for my DL assessment?

I have always recommended that the student thinking of the school route explains to the DO what is being contemplated, where and why. The invitation to discuss places a moral obligation on the DO to be open and honest about the likely outcome. Any hangups should then emerge and thus true BSAC training rules apply - no surprises sprung on the student later.

HTH

Mike

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Hi Gordon

Note that there are also school branches of the BSAC, there is indeed one such branch in Malta, there are several in the UK. School branches operate in exactly the same way as ordinary branches with the same structure, members may join the branch and pay full BSAC and branch fees, the DO of that branch could ratify qualifications as any branch DO can.

I believe that only a DO can formally ratify qualifications above OD (I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong on that!), but what you could be seeing is members of a school branch being granted qualifications by their DO.

HTH

Keith L

[Rob Kelly]

Hi Gordon

Note that there are also school branches of the BSAC, there is indeed one such branch in Malta, there are several in the UK. School branches operate in exactly the same way as ordinary branches with the same structure, members may join the branch and pay full BSAC and branch fees, the DO of that branch could ratify qualifications as any branch DO can.

I believe that only a DO can formally ratify qualifications above OD (I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong on that!), but what you could be seeing is members of a school branch being granted qualifications by their DO.

HTH

Keith L

I did Sport Diver through a school. Because I wasn't a member of a branch I had to join BSAC direct in order to take the course. This made it a bit difficult to get a DO to sign anything so the Instructor did it. He seemed to be of the opinion that he could do this.

Rob.

[Dominic Humphries]

Unless things have changed dramatically in the last 6 years (and for part of that time I was an Acting DO and know that they didn't), then schools can offer the instruction but the DO awards the qualification after such quality asurance as (s)he may wish to impose. [NB: I am =not= saying what is or is not reasonable]

Are you sure about this part?

Cus on my IFC a while ago, one of our scenarios was: "A not-too-skilled diver goes away on holiday, returns to the branch with all the training dives for their next grade signed off, explains they were done on holiday, and wants to be signed off. What do you do?"

Most groups suggested some kind of check-out dive and/or repeating some of the training dives to prove they were up to it.

We were informed that this was not acceptable, as BSAC policy is that no instructor can require anything above and beyond what the syllabus calls for to achieve a diving grade, and requiring repeats of training dives or even a check-out dive before awarding a grade was therefore against the rules - the DO HAD to award the qualification as it stodd.

He could subsequently refuse to allow the diver to do any dives beyond their previous qualification level if he chose, but he couldn't actually make them do any training or checkouts before signing off the book.

[iainmsmith]

I did Sport Diver through a school. Because I wasn't a member of a branch I had to join BSAC direct in order to take the course. This made it a bit difficult to get a DO to sign anything so the Instructor did it. He seemed to be of the opinion that he could do this.

My understanding was that members of BSAC Direct were supposed to submit their QRBs to the DO of BSAC Direct. This used to be Jim Watson - don't know if it still is.

Iain

[BSACHQ]

To All,
In response to the thread about BSAC schools signing off qualifications I can confirm that BSAC Schools should only be signing off the qualification page for Ocean Diver. They are able to provide training for the full range of BSAC courses and SDCs but only sign the individual modules completed.

It is the responsibility of the branch Diving Officer to sign off the final qualification page for other grades above Ocean Diver. Branch DOs must accept training completed by approved BSAC School's instructors and should not add or subtract from that required before signing off the qualification page.

If you require any further details, please contact me directly at HQ to discuss the matter.

Alistair Reynolds
BSAC Technical Manager

[Rob Kelly]

To All,
In response to the thread about BSAC schools signing off qualifications I can confirm that BSAC Schools should only be signing off the qualification page for Ocean Diver. They are able to provide training for the full range of BSAC courses and SDCs but only sign the individual modules completed.

It is the responsibility of the branch Diving Officer to sign off the final qualification page for other grades above Ocean Diver. Branch DOs must accept training completed by approved BSAC School's instructors and should not add or subtract from that required before signing off the qualification page.

If you require any further details, please contact me directly at HQ to discuss the matter.

Alistair Reynolds
BSAC Technical Manager

Well there seems to be some confusion about this at the schools.

Mines signed off by the instructor so perhaps it might be worth pointing it out to them as he didn't think he was doing anything wrong.

HTH
Rob.

[Paul Nield]

From what I understand of diver qualifictions within BSAC, it is only the Ocean Diver grade that can be signed off in the divers Blue qualification book by the dive school system.
All other grades can only be signed off by a BSAC club Diving Officer, after being satisfied all elements of the course have been covered and appoved by instructor or SDC signatures.

I have come across several occasions where a diving school in Malta has signed off the Sports diver grade for divers who have taken some training dives with them.
(Please note I have nothing against divers taking outside club training). But for the dive school in question to qualify the divers takes away some fundamental checks that only can be made at the club level.(Club fees, BSAC current membership, etc).

This dive school in Malta use the fact that they can qualify BSAC Ocean Divers so can qualify other grades as well.

Is this true?
Have the rules changed?

Gordon,
I completed my Sport Diver training in Malta at Dive Deep Blue. The instructor signed off my traing but my DO back in Runcorn signed off my Sport Diver qualification.

Paul

[edward haynes]

I have extracted the relevant text from the next edition of the Branch Officers Handbook - which is today being sent to HQ for issue.

The second paragraph gives the guidance you're looking for.

HTH

Edward

----------------

Dual Membership:
It is not unusual for very active divers to be members of more that one Branch. Their main Branch shall be responsible for collecting the BSAC membership subscription and is identifiable from the prefix letter ?A? printed at the beginning of their membership number on the membership receipt issued by BSAC Headquarters. Other Branches they are members of are identifiable by the prefix ?B?, ?C?, etc. on their BSAC membership receipt, will collect the Branch subscription only.

Only the Branch Diving Officer of their main (?A?) Branch shall grant diving qualifications to this type of member. Branch Diving Officers of this type of member?s other Branch(s) shall refer the member to the main (?A?) Branch Diving Officer.

[Gordon Archer]

To All,
In response to the thread about BSAC schools signing off qualifications I can confirm that BSAC Schools should only be signing off the qualification page for Ocean Diver. They are able to provide training for the full range of BSAC courses and SDCs but only sign the individual modules completed.

It is the responsibility of the branch Diving Officer to sign off the final qualification page for other grades above Ocean Diver. Branch DOs must accept training completed by approved BSAC School's instructors and should not add or subtract from that required before signing off the qualification page.

If you require any further details, please contact me directly at HQ to discuss the matter.

Alistair Reynolds
BSAC Technical Manager

Thanks Alistair..
This is exactly as I understood how it should be.
However the schools do not seem to understand this.

[Gordon Archer]

I have extracted the relevant text from the next edition of the Branch Officers Handbook - which is today being sent to HQ for issue.

The second paragraph gives the guidance you're looking for.

HTH

Edward

----------------

Dual Membership:
It is not unusual for very active divers to be members of more that one Branch. Their main Branch shall be responsible for collecting the BSAC membership subscription and is identifiable from the prefix letter ?A? printed at the beginning of their membership number on the membership receipt issued by BSAC Headquarters. Other Branches they are members of are identifiable by the prefix ?B?, ?C?, etc. on their BSAC membership receipt, will collect the Branch subscription only.

Only the Branch Diving Officer of their main (?A?) Branch shall grant diving qualifications to this type of member. Branch Diving Officers of this type of member?s other Branch(s) shall refer the member to the main (?A?) Branch Diving Officer.

Thanks Edward, the answer is definitive and also answers the question of divers joining the school branch whilst training.

Thanks to every one for the information and discussion on this thread.

Gordon Archer
DO, Moreton & District Diver's(MADD)

[Mike Halligan]

:=Unless things have changed dramatically in the last 6 years (and for part of that time I was an Acting DO and know that they didn't), then schools can offer the instruction but the DO awards the qualification after such quality asurance as (s)he may wish to impose. [NB: I am =not= saying what is or is not reasonable]

Are you sure about this part?

Cus on my IFC a while ago, one of our scenarios was: "A not-too-skilled diver goes away on holiday, returns to the branch with all the training dives for their next grade signed off, explains they were done on holiday, and wants to be signed off. What do you do?"

Most groups suggested some kind of check-out dive and/or repeating some of the training dives to prove they were up to it.

We were informed that this was not acceptable, as BSAC policy is that no instructor can require anything above and beyond what the syllabus calls for to achieve a diving grade, and requiring repeats of training dives or even a check-out dive before awarding a grade was therefore against the rules - the DO HAD to award the qualification as it stodd.

He could subsequently refuse to allow the diver to do any dives beyond their previous qualification level if he chose, but he couldn't actually make them do any training or checkouts before signing off the book.

Yes, Dominic, I am entirely sure within the context I stated. 6 years ago this was the fact of the matter in some Branches. It was not the case in my own Branch, my DO discussed the experience, examined the signatures, signed the book and suggested he would do a checkout dive with me (and no, we didn't do it last weekend, either).

QA may comprise a 'phone call to the school, similar to HQ or a canter through "What did you get up to, then?" with the student. The DO defines QA, not the member, and certainly not the school.

During my tenure as ADO, nothing changed. Beyond that, I know nothing and care even less.

Regards,

Mike

[Philip Smith]

I have extracted the relevant text from the next edition of the Branch Officers Handbook - which is today being sent to HQ for issue.

Edward, this passage is in need of copy-editing before going to the printers.

Philip

[edward haynes]

Philip

If you could explain where and why then we can do something about it. I accept those involved can be too close (the wood for the trees etc), but without some guidance what you think is wrong ...

Edward

Edward, this passage is in need of copy-editing before going to the printers.

Philip

[Philip Smith]

If you could explain where and why then we can do something about it. I accept those involved can be too close (the wood for the trees etc), but without some guidance what you think is wrong ...

Sorry if my minimalist comment appeared unhelpful. I have sent an e-mail with suggested corrections/changes.

Philip

[edward haynes]

Sorry if my minimalist comment appeared unhelpful. I have sent an e-mail with suggested corrections/changes.

Philip

Did you use <a href="mailto:edward.haynes@bsac.com">edward.haynes@bsac.com</a> as nothing as yet received.

Edward

[Philip Smith]

Did you use <a href="mailto:edward.haynes@bsac.com">edward.haynes@bsac.com</a> as nothing as yet received.

Yes, that's the address I used -- no error messages so far. I have re-sent.

Philip