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Iain Paul
28-09-2003, 22:45
As a longstanding member of BSAC and someone who frequently reads the forums, I have become increasingly frustrated and annoyed by the constant negative whinging attitude of the very small number of members and even NON members who have dominated them. Those who post must remember that they are a TINY MINORITY of the membership whereas, fortunately Council must represent all members including the apparently silent (so far as the forums are concerned) majority. Though I have never previously posted on any forum I do so now to say enough is enough. I also do so because I am one of those who has privately expressed my concern to Keith and seen him being questioned over his reference to myself and others of similar mind. If I over step any generally accepted protocols or miss-use "geek" language in making this post I make no apologies for doing so (other than to Keith). Whilst some may think "the shoe fits" it is not my intention that any individual should take offence. Come on guys BE POSITIVE. Stop slagging off BSAC especially in the public domain. Those of you who are not in membership are taking a very great liberty when doing so.

Reading many posts I am left thinking that there are a number of schizophrenics making them. For those of you who are actually in membership YOU ARE BSAC so don?t go saying "BSAC get your act together". For those of you who are making criticism or helping to fuel it from out with the current membership quite frankly, personally, I couldn't care less about your views and I don?t like paying for you to shoot MY organisation down in flames. Whilst accepting that there will always be room for improvement BSAC is an excellent organisation which allows everyone to have their say - perhaps currently to our overall detriment !

I would also make the following personal observations

As someone who struggled for some years to complete AD on SDC's due to lack of courses running within easy travelling distance -150 miles - I still believe that a great deal more was gained by having to do the courses out with my branch than would have been within it. Closed in Branch training can become very incestuous and often creates or perpetuates myths and half truths which are be quickly exploded when exposed to input from outsiders through the Regional Coaching schemes. Similar applies with ITS courses. Rather than arguing to do courses in house get your members to go out for them and gain experience from others, you'll be surprised what you/they will learn?... Or is that what you are afraid of?

Many supposed problems are not directly BSAC ones but come from the same place as BSAC's main strength- the Branch. Some of these emanate from the barrack room lawyers in clubs or else "long standing members" who are not prepared to move with the times (eg SALT) or have invented their own rules and qualifications over and above BSAC.

Having made my feelings known within the Region, and eventually achieved the qualifications, I was encouraged to get involved on the other side of the fence, something which I have since been heavily committed to (in addition to my Branch efforts) in order to try and improve the situation for others following in my footsteps. Strangely enough this has also had a major positive effect on my own Branch as my members meet, train and dive with members from other clubs.

It will no doubt never have been considered by the whingers that those organising courses (SDC or ITS) suffer the same frustration as would be participants but from the other side. It is however worse than this- ever considered the costs for an IFC? Facilities alone can be approaching ?500 and can be VERY hard to get hold of, even when booked months in advance. Imagine the pressure the LO is under when courses look doubtful with only weeks to go. Fortunately I have so far been able to get away without cancellation fees, but?? The answer to the problem lies with the membership. BOOK EARLY and encourage others to do so, not just within your branch but all the local branches. I have known SDC's go from 2 people signed up to oversubscribed within the week before it was due to run. This is not on but who's fault is it if the course is cancelled?

I suspect that many of the problems are not directly BSAC ones but come from the same place as BSAC's main strength- the Branch. Some of these are no doubt from the barrack room lawyers in clubs or else "long standing members" who are not prepared to move with the times (eg SALT) and have invented their own rules and qualifications over and above BSAC. To all I say wake up to what BSAC is a welcoming organisation, make sure your club is fit to be part of it. Get out in to the wider BSAC or invite the wider BSAC in, you might be surprised.

Having said my piece, I have two hopes, firstly that the whingers curtail their efforts and more importantly bove, but more importantly I hope that more of the silent majority will follow my lead and show their head above the parapet and help turn these forums into positive developmental tools.

Iain

AD/AI
DO EllonSAC 1193

Vic
28-09-2003, 23:05
Woah, woah, woah!

> Come on guys BE POSITIVE.

Whilst positive proposals are always more welcome than negative criticism, it is vital for us all to realise the true state of opinion - if that is negative, then we need to know that. To limit discussion to praise of BSAC would really be sticking our collective head in the sand. We have a problem with retaining members - this is part of it.

> Stop slagging off BSAC especially in the public domain.

As someone who spent a very long time battling BSAC in the private domain - only to be ignored - I take exception to that. The criticisms currently being voiced here *have* been made privately; we haven't even achieved a discussion yet. Going public is a natural escalation; I have no qualms whasoever about going public with this sort of thing.

> For those of you who are actually in membership YOU ARE BSAC
> so don?t go saying "BSAC get your act together".

So how do we go about influencing what the officers of this club do? Do we sit back and wait for them to determine our will through psychic means? That doesn't work. Do we try to talk to them privately and express our concern at the way things are going? Recent experience shows us that that doesn't work either. Do we oust them altogether and start afresh? That really would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. All that remains is to make a fuss in public so that these problems can no longer be ignored. That is what you are seeing here.

> BSAC is an excellent organisation which allows everyone to
> have their say

And that is what we are doing.

> ever considered the costs for an IFC?

I have considered the costs for an ITC - the predecessor of the IFC - because I was part of a group that organised one. Want to know the story? It does not show BSAC in a particularly positive light.

> I hope that more of the silent majority will follow my lead
> and show their head above the parapet and help turn these
> forums into positive developmental tools.

We all want these fora to be constructive tools, but I suspect those members of the "silent majority" that break their silence will be more likely to voice their complaints than anything else. I hope to be wrong in this...

Vic.

iainmsmith
28-09-2003, 23:26
Iain,

Are you by any chance the Iain Paul who was on the 1999 BSAC West of Scotland Expedition?

If so, hello!

Iain Smith

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)
29-09-2003, 00:31
Thanks for that Iain, you have very succinctly echoed the sentiments of several such emails that I have received about these forums. IMHO the single most important point in your whole post is this ?

?those of you who are actually in membership YOU ARE BSAC?

We?re all in this together, we?re a members club, we help each other out. I certainly don?t want these forums to turn into a good news only self appreciation society, that wouldn?t help the club either. But the negative and adversarial tone that is sometimes present creates a very poor image and actually puts people off contributing, that is a fact borne out by many conversations and emails that I have had on the subject.

I am not going to pretend that the BSAC is perfect, to do so would be arrogant and it would mean that I was wasting my time trying to improve it. But simplistic barrack room lawyer solutions and chants from the other side of the playground are not the way to go about improving things. We don?t need any more problems, we?ve got enough of those and we recognise a lot of them thank you, what we need are SOLUTIONS.

Where do these solutions come from? They come from you, the membership. There have been several very welcome and very constructive points and initiatives that have come out of these recent discussions, people have put a great deal of thought into some of the replies and observations, some members are beginning to work together to try to improve their club. THAT is the way that things get done, those are the things that get listened to, we just have to try and make sure that this constructive criticism and comment doesn?t get lost in the forum froth and noise that many people find objectionable.

This is =OUR= club, all of us, instead of trying to perpetuate a ?them and us? mentality let?s build on our greatest strength, that of being a members club, and stop fighting each other and working together to improve the BSAC for all of us.

Regards

Keith L

Andy Nye
29-09-2003, 13:05
As a longstanding member of BSAC and someone who frequently reads the forums, I have become increasingly frustrated and annoyed by the constant negative whinging attitude of the very small number of members and even NON members who have dominated them. Those who post must remember that they are a TINY MINORITY of the membership whereas, fortunately Council must represent all members including the apparently silent (so far as the forums are concerned) majority. Though I have never previously posted on any forum I do so now to say enough is enough. I also do so because I am one of those who has privately expressed my concern to Keith and seen him being questioned over his reference to myself and others of similar mind. If I over step any generally accepted protocols or miss-use "geek" language in making this post I make no apologies for doing so (other than to Keith). Whilst some may think "the shoe fits" it is not my intention that any individual should take offence. Come on guys BE POSITIVE. Stop slagging off BSAC especially in the public domain. Those of you who are not in membership are taking a very great liberty when doing so.

Hi Iain

I take that as a finger pointiung exercise at me , because i have openly admitted that i am NO longer a member of BSC, if you care to read my rason where for leaving , i hope you get the bigger picture.

You do come across as the ' I'm a DO and i ammmmmmmm God ' like person,i maybe wrong ...


Andy

Philip Smith
01-10-2003, 23:37
Thanks for that Iain, you have very succinctly echoed the sentiments of several such emails that I have received about these forums.

A "silent majority" can hardly complain about bias in the views expressed on these forums if they don't participate in discussions. I expect there are lots of members who read these forums and disagree with the majority views expressed. Let's see their opinions.

Philip Smith

dave covey
02-10-2003, 11:18
I take that as a finger pointiung exercise at me , because i have openly admitted that i am NO longer a member of BSC, if you care to read my reasons were for leaving , i hope you get the bigger picture.

You do come across as the ' I'm a DO and i ammmmmmmm God ' like person,i maybe wrong ...

I'd like to make a couple of points;

As an occasional visitor to these boards I have a policy of only posting when I feel I know what i'm talking about, usually with a liberal dose of humour or a stark warning to back my text.

These boards (and other like them) seem to attract a percentage of "Serial posters" who'll argue tooth & nail against whatever is being debated. Others will answer every post for the sake of it. I left AOL boards when this became too much & to prove a point I asked "has anyone seen my car keys"............& my targetted 'serial poster' answered within the hour lol!!

BTW-BSAC is an excellent organisation & has given me 2 decades of fun/exitement all over the world. I ask anyone to save the "Oh no its not's" for Panto season!

(not aimed at you Andy. These are general observations for EVERYONE)

David Humm
08-10-2003, 02:49
Hey fellow divers and freinds..

I'm an ex-member of BSAC ('79-'90) Part of that time spent with the Rothwell & Stanley Branch Nr Leeds, I'm currently an SAA member with suplimental qualifications from TDI... Guess what (!!Revelation!!) Non of these organisations are perfect.

I read these forums with great favour, sometimes with some dismay at the content of 'public laundering'. That said; as an outsider with some 'experience' of BSAC matters I fully understand why issues get aired in public. I'm a champion of free speech, however, don't beleive for one minute that many (if any) member of your organisation would actively attempt to 'put off' potential new members through negative posts here or elsewhere. Perhaps there is a very strong need for Keith L to set up a dedicated members secure forum that caters for organisational/political matters.

Finally Keep up the excellent work that everyone contributes to. I know I'm no longer a 'confirmed' member of BSAC but, at the end of the day we are just divers doing our thing - Diving.

Stay safe.

Dave