Recent Threads [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

neil carter

26-09-2003, 12:47

Primarily for Keith, as he is the only Council Member who regularly monitors/contributes to our Fora.

The recent postings seen here, growing out of the original membership numbers posting, have not only revealed deep disquiet among some very seriously concerned contributors, but have also expressed these concerns "more in sorrow than in anger" , and with a burning desire to see our BSAC heal itself, and move back into today's reality. It should perhaps be borne in mind, that it wasn't the ten per cent o f the iceberg above the surface which sunk the unsinkable Titanic. For every member or ex-member who can be bothered to take the time and effort to express their concerns herein, many more have already voted with their feet, and many more are increasingly likely to do so.

So, Keith, do these very deepseated concerns even impinge on Council or the NDC? Are our posts ever read by Council, or heaven forbid, that that our concerns are ever discussed - formally by Council, as an actual Agenda item? (I hesitate to ask if not, why not??) If so, is any action proposed, or are Council not really concerned about the ravings of a bunch of unfortunately computer literate geeks? Strange thing is, we write because we care.

Do Council???????

Neil Carter

Andy Nye

26-09-2003, 13:05

TerryH

26-09-2003, 14:12

some good points there neil,

shame BSAC coldn't set up a members core committee and ran by people like kieth L , terry H , vic etc........ then perhapswe could have a club running for members run by real members, and NO thats not me slagging off he hard workers at bsac hq.

bit like PR in a way,,, or marketing personal.

i would if it was my club

Andy

It all comes down to BSAC's continued inabilty to utilise its
greatest assest, its members.

Take the DTP as one very basic example. Seems that many large
sections were proof read by (your not going to believe this)
those who wrote it!

So not only did we (the Instuctors/members who are going to
have to use it) not given the chance to make objective
comments, but it wasnt even given a third party glance to check
for basic errors.

Committee? Well not really, IMO smacks of elitism and we might
soon end up as a clone of BSAC council (heaven forbid), but an
informed email group of club committee members & NQI's well
that would be more than welcome.

Exams are a good example. We say that they need re-writing and
could post info on here, but unless we know the NQI and grade
we cant for fear of giving out the awnsers (BTW what bright
spark thought of giving the exam corrections on an open
website!).

If we had a NQI/Advanced email group/authorised forum/login
etc. then issues like this could be discussed at the appropraite level and pretty soon you would have defiantive awnsers that BSAC could adopt and put back into the DTP etc.

Result: Informed members targetted at the right level. Happy
technical staff as the members no longer need to bother them with "interpretation". Looks like a win, win.

Just needs BSAC to accept that we have more to offer than just
a mechanism for raising membership receipts.

TerryH

jens hucke

26-09-2003, 14:14

Just a few observations:

Council should be formed by "normal" core members, which as I understood it are often still active within the BSAC and their own branches, or region and beyond. I have come across them on SDCs, ITS events... even as students sitting in on a RYA GMDSS course for example. The difference between them and some of us, is that BSAC activities might empide on their personal diving even more than Branch duties might on ours.

As Keith has demonstrated, what you call "core" members can make a huge impact and contribution to the BSAC. When elections come, I wouldn't say that we are overwelmed with core members applying to do the job for us to vote for. In fact the choice is limited. I am unsure whether a core member council would be any different. I would have thought that Terry for example has plenty too much to do already, and wouldn't have any more time to sit on a members council than on the NDC. However I am sure he would be glad to know he and his view are represented at Coucil meetings. Shouldn't this be already the case?

In this case the real questions to ask are: Is the BSAC Council representative of it's members. It Should Be.
Maybe it is already representative, it is just that we fail to always see it, or they fail to communicate it effectively.

Maybe it is because we think that our personal views are the general view. They often aren't. Be it trimix or rebreathers, these areas are very important for the future of the BSAC and it' s members, but proportionaly only affect a very small, yet very important, minority. A core members committe like you suggest of let's say 10 divers, should only have a maximum of 1 diver who is a rebreather users, and 1 who uses Trimix in order to be proportionaly representative of the membership. I think in truth that the NDC has already more RB and Trimix users than that.

As a side line, I would be very happy to see a new class of membership: BSAC Technical membership. This could have a higher insurance premium, allow higher ppo2 for those trained and so on...

regards,
jens

Vic

26-09-2003, 14:24

TerryH

26-09-2003, 14:24

As Keith has demonstrated, what you call "core" members can make a huge impact and contribution to the BSAC. When elections come, I wouldn't say that we are overwelmed with core members applying to do the job for us to vote for. In fact the choice is limited. I am unsure whether a core member council would be any different. I would have thought that Terry for example has plenty too much to do already, and wouldn't have any more time to sit on a members council than on the NDC. However I am sure he would be glad to know he and his view are represented at Coucil meetings. Shouldn't this be already the case?

I did think about it for a millisecond, but am all to aware
that my club would suffer if I split my time.

In this case the real questions to ask are: Is the BSAC Council representative of it's members. It Should Be.
Maybe it is already representative, it is just that we fail to always see it, or they fail to communicate it effectively.

Not representative and not communicative.
If they were then these "issues" would have been sorted years
ago.

Maybe it is because we think that our personal views are the general view. They often aren't. Be it trimix or rebreathers, these areas are very important for the future of the BSAC and it' s members, but proportionaly only affect a very small, yet very important, minority. A core members committe like you suggest of let's say 10 divers, should only have a maximum of 1 diver who is a rebreather users, and 1 who uses Trimix in order to be proportionaly representative of the membership. I think in truth that the NDC has already more RB and Trimix users than that.

Sorry, although there is a major beef with technical issues, my
main gripes are the basic inaccuacacies and continued
misinformation at grass roots level.

As a side line, I would be very happy to see a new class of membership: BSAC Technical membership. This could have a higher insurance premium, allow higher ppo2 for those trained and so on...

Good idea. It's only an underwriting issue after all.

Rgds
TerryH

TerryH

26-09-2003, 14:32

> If we had a NQI/Advanced email group/authorised forum/login

The technical side to this is *trivial* - we've already demonstrated it working on the BSAC web server. The personal side of list management is a little trickier, but that remains the case for any "interest" group.

I dont see this as a technical issue, but one of BSAC finaly
realising that we (the members) can be part of the "larger
picture" by accepting our imput and assitance in BSAC media.

At the moment it really seems that it's a closed shop with the
only way of getting any action, is by staging a cout-de-tat at
the elections.

TerryH

Adrian Kelland

26-09-2003, 14:45

Jens

Just a few observations:

Council should be formed by "normal" core members, which as I understood it are often still active within the BSAC and their own branches, or region and beyond. I have come across them on SDCs, ITS events... even as students sitting in on a RYA GMDSS course for example. The difference between them and some of us, is that BSAC activities might empide on their personal diving even more than Branch duties might on ours.

I'm sure thats the case. If there is a whole day NDC meeting once every month, that starts to get close on the time I spend on Branch duties every week or so. I realise there is more than these meetings.

As Keith has demonstrated, what you call "core" members can make a huge impact and contribution to the BSAC. When elections come, I wouldn't say that we are overwelmed with core members applying to do the job for us to vote for. In fact the choice is limited. I am unsure whether a core member council would be any different. I would have thought that Terry for example has plenty too much to do already, and wouldn't have any more time to sit on a members council than on the NDC. However I am sure he would be glad to know he and his view are represented at Coucil meetings. Shouldn't this be already the case?

You'd think so, but it seems to me that the vocal members here think this is not the case.

In this case the real questions to ask are: Is the BSAC Council representative of it's members. It Should Be.
Maybe it is already representative, it is just that we fail to always see it, or they fail to communicate it effectively.

Hmm, the on line NDC bulletins stopped in 2001.

We have raised many points here, to get no reply. Keith L does an excellent job responding to us, but he is not on the NDC, which is where most of the answers have to come from. Maybe none of them have web access, but I find that hard to believe. While the number of members here is small, we ARE members. I have never worked out why some of them don't take part. These forums are instant feedback. While Council have done an excellent job regarding fiscal survival of the club, the diving ethos would appear to have been lost.

Maybe it is because we think that our personal views are the general view. They often aren't. Be it trimix or rebreathers, these areas are very important for the future of the BSAC and it' s members, but proportionaly only affect a very small, yet very important, minority. A core members committe like you suggest of let's say 10 divers, should only have a maximum of 1 diver who is a rebreather users, and 1 who uses Trimix in order to be proportionaly representative of the membership. I think in truth that the NDC has already more RB and Trimix users than that.

If these views are typical of the advanced divers who may or may not be instructing, then we have a problem. New blood helps, but it's useless wothout a heart.

As a side line, I would be very happy to see a new class of membership: BSAC Technical membership. This could have a higher insurance premium, allow higher ppo2 for those trained and so on...

What does technical mean? Is 40% Nirox in a single 12l technical? What about twin 7s on air? I don't think another membership type is required, especially if it has to cost more. That single issue may be enough for divers to say 'why bother?'.

Will I need technical membership to use my TDI blending qual. to fill my own cylinders with 32% for a 20m bimble?

I would like to see club members diving within the limits of the training within a buddy pair. Perhaps a few 'recommendations' along the lines of 'If one can use 100% deco, and one trained upto %80, then both are limited to 80%'. This is similar to a SD and AD together, the limit is the SD quals. However this may not be workable if one still has a full 7l of 100% form last time. More detailed planning required.

regards,
jens

Adrian

PeteM

26-09-2003, 15:31

:=Maybe it is because we think that our personal views are the general view. They often aren't. Be it trimix or rebreathers, these areas are very important for the future of the BSAC and it' s members, but proportionaly only affect a very small, yet very important, minority. A core members committe like you suggest of let's say 10 divers, should only have a maximum of 1 diver who is a rebreather users, and 1 who uses Trimix in order to be proportionaly representative of the membership. I think in truth that the NDC has already more RB and Trimix users than that.

Sorry, although there is a major beef with technical issues, my
main gripes are the basic inaccuacacies and continued
misinformation at grass roots level.

I think the two issues are fundermentally related and come down to lack of communication.

Pete

matt

26-09-2003, 16:44

Just a few observations:

And interesting ones as always.

Council should be formed by "normal" core members,

Council is elected and generally I think they are doing a very good job. I am sure like every other club committee I have come across they have their shakers, movers, shirkers and shifters.

The difference between them and some of us, is that BSAC activities might empide on their personal diving even more than Branch duties might on ours.

I have never questioned the commitment or good intention of anyone working at the National or Regional level. I am sure they work as hard as we do at local level. As you indicate, if you work at National level there is a danger that you may not appreciate exactly what problems are being faced locally. Just as at the local level we do not always appreciate the problems higher up. If we are to work together we must listen and respect each other. I fear those higher up are not doing the listening and respecting as well as is needed. While those lower down are getting bored listening to the outpourings of the apparently out of touch.

As Keith has demonstrated, what you call "core" members can make a huge impact and contribution to the BSAC. When elections come, I wouldn't say that we are overwelmed with core members applying to do the job for us to vote for.

That is not in question. If I thought I could do the job of the elected officials better than any are doing I would stand.

The problem is not with council. The problem is with council's advisors on diving matters the NDC.

This is the NDC as far as I can ascertain
LIZZIE BIRD
CLARE PEDDIE
JIM WATSON
ALISTAIR REYNOLDS
ANDY BOORER/PAUL SMITHSON
SEAN GRIBBEN
MAGGIE COWING
DEREK COWAN
TREVOR DAVIES
ROBIN ECCLES
JACK INGLE
BOB BRADING
BRIAN CUMMING
MIKE TODD

Not one of them is tasked to represent branch members. I propose that the reason no one is representing us is that it is no ones job to represent us.

Maybe it is because we think that our personal views are the general view. They often aren't.

I have contributed to this forum from it's first day and I have never seen so much agreement on a single issue before. The fact that our common foe is our own organisation is truelly unforgivable. I think it is safe to say that it is the general view of those that give a damn.

As a side line, I would be very happy to see a new class of membership: BSAC Technical membership. This could have a higher insurance premium, allow higher ppo2 for those trained and so on...

Completely agree. I would have no qualms about paying a higher subscription if it ennabled me to stay diving in the branch.

Regards
Matt

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

26-09-2003, 17:27

The average forum participants liking for self flagellation never ceases to amaze me ;-) The idea of these threads was for constructive comment, we?ve had some but I?m still left with this feeling that it would be nice when you stop hitting me!

OK, from the top ?
Do Council, HQ, NDC etc. etc. monitor these forums? Yes they do, in fact there is (or was) a ?forum watch? function at HQ which highlighted important threads and passed them on, I frequently get emails about posts and threads. What turns a lot of people off is the negative ?pounced upon? feeling that they get, you?re not helping your own cause here guys. Now I don?t care whether you tell me whether that?s right or wrong, I?m just telling you the way that it is. Me? I?m immune, as the Council geek I?ve been around the internet for too long and this one isn?t afraid to bite back. Also remember that I?m pretty much the odd one out on Council [careful ? I?ll censor further comments :-)] in that I don?t have other BSAC interests such as regional, ITS, NDC and other such time consuming activities. I?m always around the internet, that?s what I do, that?s why you see me here.

The idea of another committee of members. Well, I?m reminded of the definition of a committee : ?A collection of people who individually can do nothing, but as a group can collectively decide that nothing can be done?. Cynical? Not really, call it experience. We have a members committee, it?s called Council. There is a word that describes the notion that there is nobody on Council to represent the branches interests but this forum software wont let me use it and I?ve have to moderate my own post. I?ve been doing this for the past three years, I have =NEVER= come across anything where the interest of the branches have been sacrificed for something else, it doesn?t happen.

NDC. I also completely and utterly reject the notion that there is nobody on NDC to represent branches. Some are Council, some are Coaching, some are ITS, all of them do (or have) contributed massively to the branch/region/club nature of the BSAC. But I?ll agree that they are not that communicative, this is partly due to the massive volume of email that they receive and there was also an element of ?burn out? after the huge effort on the DTP.

I?ll agree that overall we have a communication problem, we?ve always had one and we just can?t seem to crack it. Forums are only a very small part of it. So OK, you?ve had your moan, I?m feeling battered ? now how about some positive suggestions? Small, simple bullet points ?communicate better? isn?t that helpful. Stop knocking us down, start building us up.

Keith L

jens hucke

26-09-2003, 17:42

My definition of Technical would be anything above and beyond BSAC recreational limits.
So 1.4ppo2, 80%, or 70m Trimix would be recreational, but 100% mix, 1.6ppo2...Trimix rebreathers to 80+ metres and so on would be under BSAC Technical, if you are qualified to use them under another agency.

As for 2 divers, one Technical and the other recreational diving together, the plan should be based around the recreational diver's limits, but the Technical diver could be able to use any ppo2 or mix he chooses and is qualified to use, as is the case with an air diver diving together with an advanced nitrox diver carrying a deco mix of 50%. Maybe set a recommenda

Mike Halligan

26-09-2003, 17:44

I?ll agree that overall we have a communication problem, we?ve always had one and we just can?t seem to crack it. Forums are only a very small part of it. So OK, you?ve had your moan, I?m feeling battered ? now how about some positive suggestions? Small, simple bullet points ?communicate better? isn?t that helpful. Stop knocking us down, start building us up.

Keith,

Thanks, as ever, for the part you play.

For what it's worth, I recognise four names in the list of NDC members. I should state clearly and with total honesty that all four consistently demonstrate with the greatest care that they represent as much as lead the BSAC rank and file.

Perhaps it is that great tin-god, perception and not intent after all? We do live in a spin-obsessed autocracy, after all. :-)

Mike

PeteM

26-09-2003, 18:27

Keith

I really don't think you personally have anything to feel battered about. I think everyone here considers the amount of feed back we get from you is exemplary.

I can understand that others may feel "pounced upon" but this is partly a function of the perceived lack of visibility of the rest of council. If I as chairman of Chelmsford Branch or my wife as TO don't go down the pub or pool for a couple of weeks then we get pounced upon when we do appear, because everyone wants to talk to us about something and they have not had a chance for a while. Exactly the same thing happens with other council members when they do put their heads above the parapet.

Pete

matt

26-09-2003, 19:15

Hi Keith

You say that another committee is not needed I completely agree.

You say "What turns a lot of people off is the negative ?pounced upon? feeling that they get" and "I?m just telling you the way that it is."

Well the negative comments are also the way it is. The people charged with running things have to accept criticism from time to time, founded or unfounded, else yes there is a communication problem.

If you are not willing to respond to people unless they wrap their opinion in cotton wool, you are ignoring valid opinion. If you aren't going to listen to what people are complaining about how can you possibly start to fix things for them? If people complain it tends to mean they think you will do something to help. I hear far more complaints in our club these days as a result of our current growth, people are active they find things wrong and complain. When they stop complaining, bickering, whinging I will be worried because it will mean they are no longer diving.

NDC. I also completely and utterly reject the notion that there is nobody on NDC to represent branches.

So how have we got here then? Why are those at the bottom, including people that can't agree on anything else, all expressing the same view? Why are branch officers finding it increasingly harder to run branches with almost every new rule that comes out?

Some are Council, some are Coaching, some are ITS, all of them do (or have) contributed massively to the branch/region/club nature of the BSAC.

This is not being debated by me.

But I?ll agree that they are not that communicative, this is partly due to the massive volume of email that they receive and there was also an element of ?burn out? after the huge effort on the DTP.

These NDC meetings, are there minutes, can we see them or what about a summary? Is it any wonder we feel isolated from the NDC, they appear to work in isolation. I am simply not allowed to do that in a branch committee, it would be easier, but I am not allowed to do it.

I?ll agree that overall we have a communication problem, we?ve always had one and we just can?t seem to crack it.

Until you (BSAC) can take the rough with the smooth you are unlikely to (IMO).

Forums are only a very small part of it. So OK, you?ve had your moan, I?m feeling battered ? now how about some positive suggestions? Small, simple bullet points ?communicate better? isn?t that helpful. Stop knocking us down, start building us up.

Well they are very easy to ignore however.
1. Give branches a single and dedicated point of contact to the NDC
2. Publish NDC minutes or a summary each month.
3. Allow all divers certified by HSE approved agencies to dive to the limit of there qualification
4. Increase the number of resources capable of progressing ODs / CDs
5. Increase the number of resources capable of progressing SDs / DLs / ADs
6. Increase the number of resources capable of holding DO / TO positions
7. Make the ITC more accessible
8. Make BSAC regional coaches more accesible
9. Proactively seek out the problems and fix them.
10. MAKE IT EASIER FOR ME TO GO DIVING AND RUN A BRANCH

Regards
Matt

AndyCarroll

26-09-2003, 19:35

These NDC meetings, are there minutes, can we see them or what about a summary? Is it any wonder we feel isolated from the NDC, they appear to work in isolation. I am simply not allowed to do that in a branch committee, it would be easier, but I am not allowed to do it.

Is this what you are looking for?

<a href="http://www.bsac.org/services/minuteslist.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/services/minuteslist.htm</a>

Kindest Regards

Andy

Adrian Kelland

26-09-2003, 19:54

:=
:=These NDC meetings, are there minutes, can we see them or what about a summary? Is it any wonder we feel isolated from the NDC, they appear to work in isolation. I am simply not allowed to do that in a branch committee, it would be easier, but I am not allowed to do it.
:=
Is this what you are looking for?

http://www.bsac.org/services/minuteslist.htm

Andy

Andy

The minutes are almost too basic, and can refer to things we cannot read. It is a shame the NDC bulletins stopped 2 years ago. <a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/ndcbltn1.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/ndcbltn1.htm</a> BSAC talk <a href="http://www.bsac.org/services/talk/index.html" >http://www.bsac.org/services/talk/index.html</a> does not make too much mention of the NDC. Athough the August one does make mention on being interested in our feedback...

Adrian

john kendall

26-09-2003, 21:58

:=As a side line, I would be very happy to see a new class of membership: BSAC Technical membership. This could have a higher insurance premium, allow higher ppo2 for those trained and so on...
:=

Good idea. It's only an underwriting issue after all.

Er, No it's not. The insurers couldn't care less what you do as long as BSAC say it is OK. Can't blame the insurers this time

John

john kendall

26-09-2003, 22:00

My definition of Technical would be anything above and beyond BSAC recreational limits.
So 1.4ppo2, 80%, or 70m Trimix would be recreational, but 100% mix, 1.6ppo2...Trimix rebreathers to 80+ metres and so on would be under BSAC Technical, if you are qualified to use them under another agency.

Hmm, To dive to 70m on Trimix you have to be qualified by another agency. BSAC don't teach Trimix. No one really cares much that the 70m limit is set on Trimix, what we care about is being told that BSAC regognise our training, but want us to dive differently to it.

John

TerryH

26-09-2003, 23:49

:=
:=Good idea. It's only an underwriting issue after all.
:=

Er, No it's not. The insurers couldn't care less what you do as long as BSAC say it is OK. Can't blame the insurers this time

No. I meant that it's a underwriting admin issue. They just
need to rewrite the odd clause etc.

TerryH

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

27-09-2003, 00:35

Matt

Thanks for that! That?s more like it. Some of these may be down to communication, people just don?t know where to go. Some others maybe we should be looking at. I?ll answer all of your points with my ?take? on the situation.

1. Give branches a single and dedicated point of contact to the NDC

You?ve got one, it?s called HQ. Both Alistair (Technical) and Jim (Coaching) at HQ are NDC members. Now if you?re saying that HQ are not responding properly then that?s something we should be looking at, but I know from personal and reported experiences the vast amount of traffic that HQ do handle successfully. Maybe we could improve in this area, possibly some delegation to a named individual? But the primary thing you are asking for, a single point of contact, I believe that we already have. I?m willing to be told otherwise.

2. Publish NDC minutes or a summary each month.

NDC, like Council, don?t hold formal meetings that often, meetings are expensive things. An awful lot is done by email and telephone. I note from other comments the declining usefulness of Council minutes, that?s because we?ve moved to reporting by exception and the associated paperwork can be a pile an inch thick!

But maybe this is something that Lizzie can pick up on, more visibility/communication from NDC would at least let you know (in summary) the issues currently in progress. I see from another thread that members want the NDC and various issues discussed at DOC this year, this is one positive suggestion that I think should be put forward.

3. Allow all divers certified by HSE approved agencies to dive to the limit of there qualification

That?s an NDC issue, see above.

4. Increase the number of resources capable of progressing ODs / CDs
5. Increase the number of resources capable of progressing SDs / DLs / Ads

By this are you referring to who can teach?

If you are then I am sorry to have to tell you that the current NQI only ruling is not as a result of BSAC introduced rules but as a reaction to very strong external influences. Primarily to blame is the ?anybodies fault but mine? claim culture that we have inherited from our friends over the pond, we have to provide insurance cover for our members.

Don?t blame the BSAC for this one, blame modern society and the ever encroaching rules and regulations on our everyday lives. It?s the way that we live today. Long gone are the days when it is acceptable to say ?I?ve done a bit of diving, I?ll teach you?? and expect to get insurance for it. Go ahead, be my guest ? you go and try to get an insurance company to cover you for teaching in such circumstances, if you find somewhere (you wont) then we would be very interested to hear about it! With the modern blame culture we have to protect our members, we can only do that if they follow the rules forced upon us by society. That?s the way that it is Matt.

6. Increase the number of resources capable of holding DO / TO positions

I am not aware of any practical limitations, please elaborate. We already have procedures that, with the assistance of others, allow virtually anybody to hold these formal posts within a branch. I?m certainly aware of SD?s holding DO positions and non NQI?s holding TO positions, as you are well aware there?s one hell of a lot more to such positions than your diving/NQI grade! Where do you see the problems here Matt?

7. Make the ITC more accessible

In what way is it inaccessible? Where are people experiencing problems?
I believe that we have put on extra ITS events this year due to demand, but others we have had trouble filling. Be more specific here, how could we make it better?

8. Make BSAC regional coaches more accessible

In what way are they inaccessible? What problems have you had with regional resources? If you are saying that the regional resources aren?t responding then yes I will agree that there may be local problems, contact Jim at HQ, he?s in charge of coaching. Our coaches have an awful lot of skills but being psychic isn?t a prerequisite for the job ;-) You contact them with an issue/problem and they should get back to you and help if they can.

I know what they face, I see it all of the time when I visit branches unannounced, it goes like this?
Branch : ?Well! We?ve never seen the likes of YOU down here before, we never see anybody from Council/HQ/Region?
Me : ?Really? Have you ever asked for a visit then??
Branch : ?Well? no? we?ve never actually asked??

So exactly where are you seeing the problem here Matt? What should we be doing? When I turn up at a branch I often get ?are you checking up on us then?? (no, it?s normally a social visit). People don?t ask for assistance, I know that a lot of DO?s would take exception to frequent visits from coaching that they haven?t asked for.

So where is the problem and fix? If I waited to be invited to a branch I would never visit any, if I just turn up then the branch is immediately on the defensive. I know that our coaches face exactly the same dilemma. Solutions please!

9. Proactively seek out the problems and fix them.

We could even use the forums for that :-)

10. MAKE IT EASIER FOR ME TO GO DIVING AND RUN A BRANCH

Would love to, that?s what we?re trying to do. But until we can identify the problems, be they communication, information or practical, then there?s not a lot that we can do. Simple practical points such as those you have raised go a long way towards doing that.

HTH

Keith L

iainmsmith

28-09-2003, 23:53

:=As a side line, I would be very happy to see a new class of membership: BSAC Technical membership. This could have a higher insurance premium, allow higher ppo2 for those trained and so on...

Completely agree. I would have no qualms about paying a higher subscription if it ennabled me to stay diving in the branch.

Actually, I would disagree with a higher insurance premium for tehcnical divers because it reinforces the image of "technical" diving as being more dangerous. Properly executed technical diving is many times safer than "top end" recreational diving (eg air to 50m, single tank diving below 30m, etc). Our "Governing Body" perpetuating such an image would only make it harder to get other forms of insurance...it's bad enough trying to negotiate life assurance when one has to admit to a) diving below 30m b) doing dives requiring mandatory stops c) penetrating wrecks and d) being trimix qualified.

However, I too would be prepared to pay up if it meant a resolution of the various issues.

Iain

iainmsmith

28-09-2003, 23:58

matt

29-09-2003, 03:07

:=:=As a side line, I would be very happy to see a new class of membership: BSAC Technical membership. This could have a higher insurance premium, allow higher ppo2 for those trained and so on...
:=
:=Completely agree. I would have no qualms about paying a higher subscription if it ennabled me to stay diving in the branch.

Actually, I would disagree with a higher insurance premium for tehcnical divers because it reinforces the image of "technical" diving as being more dangerous.

Well I guess you could look at it like that. As it is I have no problems paying a premium [pun] as I am in the minority. If I can buy the cover I need without having to buy the same cover twice it will be cheaper overall.

However, I too would be prepared to pay up if it meant a resolution of the various issues.

So we agree then.

Regards
Matt

matt

29-09-2003, 03:13

> 3. Allow all divers certified by HSE approved agencies to
> dive to the limit of there qualification

Out of interest, how many "HSE-approved agencies" are there? I can think of one - GUE. I'm pretty sure the rest escaped formal HSE assessment under grandfather clauses (ie they were there before the HSE were).

Good try LOL.

AIUI the HSE must approve all courses taught in the UK. Which is why Izzy 'wasn't teaching GUE' for a year or so. HSE were formed in 1975 so pre-date IANTD, TDI, ITDA etc.

Regards
Matt

neil carter

29-09-2003, 11:07

Matt said:-

Loads of snips

"I have contributed to this forum from it's first day and I have never seen so much agreement on a single issue before. The fact that our common foe is our own organisation is truelly unforgivable. I think it is safe to say that it is the general view of those that give a damn."

Matt also said:-

Loads more snips from a separate post

"If you are not willing to respond to people unless they wrap their opinion in cotton wool, you are ignoring valid opinion. If you aren't going to listen to what people are complaining about how can you possibly start to fix things for them? If people complain it tends to mean they think you will do something to help. I hear far more complaints in our club these days as a result of our current growth, people are active they find things wrong and complain. When they stop complaining, bickering, whinging I will be worried because it will mean they are no longer diving."

And in my original post at the top of this thread I said:-

"Strange thing is, we write because we care."

There have now been, in the space of less than a week, nigh on two hundred separate posts expressing many different threads of opinion, but all concentrating on one particular area, concern that there are major fault lines in the relationship between BSAC and our most senior and experienced, and committed and Branch involved, Committee Members, Instructors, and divers. In the main this is NOT whinging, it is expression of very deep concern, and that that concern is being neither acknowledged, nor considered for future solution.

The constant reference to Insurance problems is a red herring. It is always trotted out as a reason why we can't actually do "xyz". The insurance, while vital, is our servant, not our master. When we solve whatever problems, then the insurance can simply (sorry for the simplistic approach) be tailored to match what BSAC requires. It is not a reason for not solving or accepting the problem(s) in the first place.

I say again, we are not simply whinging, we write because we care. Once again only Keith is responding, and then mainly in a non-Council capacity. Even a simple acknowledgement that these concerns are under active consideration, would go along way towards soothing the troubled brows. Ignoring a problem never has made it go away. Or are 200 considered postings within a seven day period not enough to get the message across that some of the great unwashed are truly concerned about BSAC and it's lack of response to what they perceive to be problems worth expending time and energy bringing to the forfront of discussion??

Neil Carter

SFX. Thinks deeply. Furrows brow. Can't afford to go away for weekend and return to 45 minutes catch-up on this Forum alone

vice-chairman

29-09-2003, 12:00

neil carter

29-09-2003, 12:58

Hi Allan

"Strange, the 200ish postings appear to come from the same dozen or so people that seam to believe that virtual sniping rather than actually contributing is the way to move BSAC forward."

Can't disagree with the first part of your sentence, but seriously,this really isn't "virtual sniping". In my case, as you know, I've raised these and similar points, face to face, both with yourself, and with Phil, Lizzie, and Keith, amongst others.

"What I do say however, is that if you want to make a difference and feel that you have something to contribute then stick your head above the parapet and volunteer to do something rather than blaming people that are making an effort. Remember the basis of BSAC is that we are a members club. It is not a case of them and us, it?s your club, if you want to make a difference then do something about it, we can always use more people prepared to give up there weekends and most evenings."

OK, I'm not involved at a National level, nor am I as busy as Terry H and his Uni Club, but having previously been a Club Sec, and currently serving my second term as a DO, I have been known to spend the odd half hour of my so called leisure time working for "OUR" BSAC. (And I'm now taking some of my own "self-employed" time to respond to Forum Posts)

I'm sorry if your interpretation of my own posts has suggested that I'm "blaming" anyone, I'm not. In fact, as a "non-technical" Club Nitrox diver, most of the problems raised are of no day to day diving concern to me personally. I throw in my odd two penn'orth, because I am concerned that at Branch level, for want of a better catch-all classification, senior and/or experienced BSAC divers are leaving the Club because , in their perception, BSAC is not keeping up with their requirements for their own diving activities, and yes, as DO, I have seen members leave my Branch for just these reasons. I am thereby concerned. I have expressed these concerns face to face, but as I think Vic mentioned in an earlier post, ( <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/1522.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/1522.html</a>) when no acknowlegement seems to be made, and no action seems to take place, what then should we do, rather than discuss our concerns on the "Club Matters" section of our own Forum??

I haven't in fact joined in many discussions recently, but when Matt's original posting ( <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/1371.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/1371.html</a>) appeared - and as the cri-de-couer of an obviously committed Branch Chairman, his post should be required reading for ALL Council Members - I felt that it was a topic to which I could usefully contribute.

To make but one quote from Matt's post:-

"To summarise please BSAC stop excluding our most passionate people, because they are the ones that drive the branch. They are the ones that create the involvement. They are the ones that command the influence. Without them we have very little to offer. Pursueing a route which encourages only average divers is IMVHO dangerous as the people that run branches are anything but average divers."

This is not virtual sniping, this is deep concern from the very bedrock of BSAC.

Maybe your "same dozen or so people", just a few of Matt's "passionate people" should be summoned before Council, or the NDC, rather like appearing before a Commons Select Committee, to collectively work together to find 2003 answers to 2003 problems.

Virtually Yours
Neil Carter AI AD

DO
ISIS Divers

PeteM

29-09-2003, 13:30

Strange, the 200ish postings appear to come from the same dozen or so people that seam to believe that virtual sniping rather than actually contributing is the way to move BSAC forward. The vast majority of council do monitor the forum pages, I personally view them every day but don?t respond to each and every one. What I do say however, is that if you want to make a difference and feel that you have something to contribute then stick your head above the parapet and volunteer to do something rather than blaming people that are making an effort.
Remember the basis of BSAC is that we are a members club. It is not a case of them and us, it?s your club, if you want to make a difference then do something about it, we can always use more people prepared to give up there weekends and most evenings.

I think that is really out of order. Those not "making an effort" are as far as I can see all NQI's and include at least 3 DO's, 2 TO's and a chairman, plus most of the rest have held similar positions. I work b****y hard for my branch, I've tried to contribute at a national level but pressure of work saw that fail and those others doing the "virtual sniping" that I know all work as hard, some like TerryH work a darn site harder.

Unfortunately there are only 24 hours in the day so I have to make a choice where my contribution will be most effective; for me that is at the branch level.

To imply that those in the branches are not making an effort is insulting to say the least.

Pete

neil carter

29-09-2003, 13:39

Those not "making an effort" are as far as I can see all NQI's and include at least 3 DO's, 2 TO's and a chairman, plus most of the rest have held similar positions. I work b****y hard for my branch, I've tried to contribute at a national level but pressure of work saw that fail and those others doing the "virtual sniping" that I know all work as hard, some like TerryH work a darn site harder.

"Bedrock"

QED

Neil Carter

matt

29-09-2003, 13:58

Strange, the 200ish postings appear to come from the same dozen or so people

How many people voted for you Allan, out of a 50,000 membership. How many cared?

that seam to believe that virtual sniping rather than actually contributing is the way to move BSAC forward.

That is very understanding of you.

What I do say however, is that if you want to make a difference and feel that you have something to contribute then stick your head above the parapet and volunteer to do something rather than blaming people that are making an effort.

Like I said, very understanding of you.
It is so nice to know the volunteer effort of those at the coal face is valued so highly by those in the BSAC board room.

Remember the basis of BSAC is that we are a members club. It is not a case of them and us, it?s your club, if you want to make a difference then do something about it, we can always use more people prepared to give up there weekends and most evenings.

Now here is a concept. Just maybe the people doing the 'virtual sniping' already have their weekends and evenings full operating their branches. Just maybe they are getting frustrated by a 'management' that appears neither to appreciate their day to day problems nor their contribution.

IMVHO When someone does something for you for no direct reward, the last thing you want to say to them is 'not good enough', they will never help you again. OTOH take a minute to say 'thanks, how can we make that easier', you may find them more willing both to help again and take on further responsibilty.

Working together is a two way street and comes at the cost of listening to peoples problems. If the guy that cleans the boat tells me he needs a new brush I ask the Boats Officer to buy him one. Before you know it he tells you what is wrong with the engine. I could of course tell him he is not scrubbing hard enough or that he must stand for Boats Officer...and end up cleaning the boat myself.

Whether you feel this is a snipe or constructive advice is your decision. In turning our branch around I have had to allow people to help on their own terms. To further encourage them often means listening to their frustrations however they choose to articulate them.

Cheers???.Allan

You have summarised what I personally dislike about BSAC very well indeed. Maybe you would prefer I left quietly as so many have.

Regards
Matt

Andy Nye

29-09-2003, 15:03

Remember the basis of BSAC is that we are a members club. It is not a case of them and us, it?s your club, if you want to make a difference then do something about it, we can always use more people prepared to give up there weekends and most evenings.

*** Exactly ***

Now here is a concept. Just maybe the people doing the 'virtual sniping' already have their weekends and evenings full operating their branches. Just maybe they are getting frustrated by a 'management' that appears neither to appreciate their day to day problems nor their contribution.

*** Part reason for me leaving ***

IMVHO When someone does something for you for no direct reward, the last thing you want to say to them is 'not good enough', they will never help you again. OTOH take a minute to say 'thanks, how can we make that easier', you may find them more willing both to help again and take on further responsibilty.

*** You have been on a man management course, haven't you . ***

Working together is a two way street and comes at the cost of listening to peoples problems. If the guy that cleans the boat tells me he needs a new brush I ask the Boats Officer to buy him one. Before you know it he tells you what is wrong with the engine. I could of course tell him he is not scrubbing hard enough or that he must stand for Boats Officer...and end up cleaning the boat myself.

*** You have hit the nail on the head....Yesterday, we have an elderly member of our club , that comes along to cook the ' Famous Dover Divers bacon sarnies ' whilst crossing the harbour to leave for a training dive in shallow waters , he calls everyone into the wheelhouse,,,, presenting me with a T cup ( NO i won't tell you the slogan on it )on behalf of the club and made a short speech in thanking me for all my help within the club and wishing me all the best of luck in my new venture.( I'm buying a dive charter business and running it from Dover ).Now , i am a member of the Dover Sub Aqua Club to which i am not leaving , just because i have my own dive boat to run , however i'm always there to help/ instuct new people wishing to train up to be coxswains of the clubs 41 ft hard boat.

However , this means alot to me as he spent his money from his pension rather than getting money from club funds. ******

You have summarised what I personally dislike about BSAC very well indeed. Maybe you would prefer I left quietly as so many have.

**** Matt , this is what i did, but you have the skills of a instructor and people need you, think long and hard about it before making any rash dicissions ****

Andy

vice-chairman

29-09-2003, 15:52

Well Chaps,

No real surprises here are there? You?ve all sat up, preened your feathers and taken umbrage that someone can actually be critical of your best intentions and tireless work as volunteers but you don?t think twice about slagging off those that you perceive to be the hierarchy of BSAC that are also volunteers.

Lets make just one thing very clear, all of council are volunteers, just like you. Most of them like myself are active in our own branches, the coaching scheme, the instructor training scheme as well as holding down full time and demanding jobs. People have put their heads above the parapet because they care and for no other reason.

The main problem, and we have a few, is that the vast majority of these postings seem to imply that everyone on council, NDC, ITS, etc has some kind of hidden agenda. They don?t - it?s our BSAC (all of us) and it?s as good or as bad as we make it or want to make it.

Yes, I agree that not everyone can give up time for council, etc in addition to their branch and holding down a full time job but for Gods sake, at least try to make it just a little easier for those that are. We do listen but cannot do everything at once. Look at the council reports on the web site to see just what we are trying to do. Look at the annual reports to see how the BSAC has improved, look at the AGM reports and DOC reports, look at the new Diver Training Scheme, the new Dive Manual and the revised Instructor Training Scheme as well as the travel club, AA and Sea Start to name but a few.

There are ways of communicating and ways of listening. Snips on the forum do not work but a sensible discussion or even better, a sensible discussion document outlining problems and proposing solutions will work. The upcoming Birmingham Dive Show or DOC is a good place to talk ? I?ll be at both, will you?

Finally, it is our BSAC and it?s up to all of us to work together to make it a success.

Best????.Allan

matt

29-09-2003, 17:46

Thankyou for the reply Keith

:=1. Give branches a single and dedicated point of contact to the NDC

You?ve got one, it?s called HQ. Both Alistair (Technical) and Jim (Coaching) at HQ are NDC members. Now if you?re saying that HQ are not responding properly then that?s something we should be looking at

Have a look at my post <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/instforum/posts/2223.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/instforum/posts/2223.html</a>
I wrote to its.chief about this and got a very nice reply to the effect, nothing can be done.

I also wrote to jimw and ndo a couple months back when a letter from jimw to Horsea lake resulted in members being declined entry. This caused a _great_ deal of upset amongst our training team, opened old wounds and generally undid much of the work I had put in over the last 5 years promoting BSAC. I was asked to write to HQ by said unhappy BSAC members. I have yet to recieve a response.

Now don't get me wrong, its.chief responded quickly and accurately. The letter from jimw to Horsea was also Jim doing his job. However both these issues are highly important to our branch operation but there is currently no (effective) method I know of to esculate them. I guess what I would like to see is a role we can turn to and say 'I understand what has been said but this is REALLY important to us'. So I guess, an impartial role with influence on the NDC who is responsible for carrying the sword for the branch. Much as you do on non diving matters Keith.

:=2. Publish NDC minutes or a summary each month.

NDC, like Council, don?t hold formal meetings that often, meetings are expensive things. An awful lot is done by email and telephone.

Nothing wrong with being efficient. IMVHO however the NDC choose to operate there needs to be some reporting mechanism back to the members they are ultimately working for. AFAIC that is basic committee obligation.

:=3. Allow all divers certified by HSE approved agencies to dive to the limit of there qualification

That?s an NDC issue, see above.

If one of the instructors that it currently effects chooses to leave BSAC over it diver training in our branch will virtually stop. It is very much a branch issue as well.

:=4. Increase the number of resources capable of progressing ODs / CDs
:=5. Increase the number of resources capable of progressing SDs / DLs / Ads
:=6. Increase the number of resources capable of holding DO / TO positions
:=7. Make the ITC more accessible

By this are you referring to who can teach?

Only partially. I am referring to the ease by which people progress through the branch and the BSAC. This is the single largest issue that I face each week. It is the single issue that keeps me awake at night wondering if we can maintain our current growth. It is also the single issue that leaves me thinking BSAC are unwittingly making my life more difficult.

If you are then I am sorry to have to tell you that the current NQI only ruling is not as a result of BSAC introduced rules but as a reaction to very strong external influences.

Keith the reason I continue to be a BSAC member is that at a very fundamental level I believe that mixing the inexperienced with the experienced is the safest possible way to go diving. In light of managing an open club I am becoming convinced that this access to progressive experience is also the key to BSACs future success.

Many of the changes since 1998 have significantly undermined our ability to mix the inexperienced with the experienced. Of course if you had been looking at ways to commercially exploit the BSAC membership, that would be a good thing. As the membership have rejected the commercial route, it appears to me a very bad thing.

In our branch there is now a significant divide between those that train or are being trained and those that just go diving...and yes I have tried pretty much everything to try to stop the divide widening, it is there all the same. To make our branch growth sustainable we need to close this gap. If we can close this gap we increase the involvment of our branch members and diving is safer. How we go about closing this gap may require some original thinking.

Primarily to blame is the ?anybodies fault but mine? claim culture that we have inherited from our friends over the pond, we have to provide insurance cover for our members.

Absolutely. But surely we are the Governing Body, do we not have some ammunition to claim our way is the safest way. The incident figures for BSAC members diving in clubs are significantly lower than those for people outside clubs.

Don?t blame the BSAC for this one, blame modern society and the ever encroaching rules and regulations on our everyday lives.

Lets just lose the blame culture, I don't care, I just want to move forward. BSAC could be more aggressive in fighting regulation or possibly we find a way to operate in spite of it.

For instance, if ODs diving with whatever grade require surface cover as they do not have surface AV skills, teaching them surface AV skills would appear to negate the requirement for dedicated surface cover.

It?s the way that we live today. Long gone are the days when it is acceptable to say ?I?ve done a bit of diving, I?ll teach you?? and expect to get insurance for it.

If a DL can not teach because they have not been shown how to teach, add a basic teaching module into the DL course, pretty much what has happened with O2.

Go ahead, be my guest ? you go and try to get an insurance company to cover you for teaching in such circumstances, if you find somewhere (you wont) then we would be very interested to hear about it!

Well there is the whole definition of what is and isn't teaching for a start. Is a DL showing a SD how to do a CBL from 10m rather than 6m teaching, for instance. Possibly if we say it is, possibly not if we say it is not.

With the modern blame culture we have to protect our members, we can only do that if they follow the rules forced upon us by society. That?s the way that it is

I would suggest that we have to enable our members to get on as they want in a way that is acceptable to society.

To summarise these points. If we (BSAC) believe that mixing the inexperienced with the experienced is both, safer for the individual and beneficial to the club as a whole, we must find a way to do it. The problems of insurers and regulators are challenges to overcome not reasons to say it is too difficult.

:=6. Increase the number of resources capable of holding DO / TO positions

I am not aware of any practical limitations, please elaborate. We already have procedures that, with the assistance of others, allow virtually anybody to hold these formal posts within a branch.

AIUI we are one of the largest branches in the country yet it is becoming increasingly difficult for us to fill these vital positions. As a large, established, eclectic branch I would see it as a failing if we have to go outside the branch.

I?m certainly aware of SD?s holding DO positions and non NQI?s holding TO positions, as you are well aware there?s one hell of a lot more to such positions than your diving/NQI grade! Where do you see the problems here Matt?

The problem is that people are not coming through the grades fast enough to be eligible for these positions while they are still enthusiastic enough to take them on. In fact I have probably nabbed them for some other task long before they get through to AD or NQI. There is also the matter of the exposure that branch officers and DOs face in regard to negligence claims.

:=7. Make the ITC more accessible

In what way is it inaccessible? Where are people experiencing problems?
I believe that we have put on extra ITS events this year due to demand, but others we have had trouble filling. Be more specific here, how could we make it better?

Sorry Keith I only see the problem. I don't claim to know the answer. We do not have enough instructors to operate effectively. We did operate effectively prior to 1998. That leads me to think the ITS is not accessible enough. Note I am not saying it is inaccessible, I am saying it is not serving it's purpose.

I know why I started on the ITS, I wanted to dive >35m and make deco stops! The main objection to going on an IFC is 'not interested in instructing' Then we come down to; too far, too expensive, too inconvenient. It is unfortunate but the active divers that would in the past have gone onto the ITS through DL and AD are the people that are diving to the limits of their wallets and free time. Go on an ITS 80 miles away or go diving 5 miles away...difficult choice!

What would help us is if we knew exactly where events were being held. I was told by a regional coach that an IFC was being held in Gosport, rounded up half a dozen people, some agreed to go BECAUSE it was in Gosport, they booked, the course is in Devizes, I look a pratt.

It might be an idea for regional coaches to ask specific branches how many people they are likely to send to a local event and target courses where and when they are likely to get filled.

:=8. Make BSAC regional coaches more accessible

In what way are they inaccessible? What problems have you had with regional resources?

My branch has no problems. I believed that members would benefit from regular access to the regional team. So we came up with a way to persuade them to visit. It has helped us to attract members and specifically to persuade PADI members to cross over to BSAC.

I know what they face, I see it all of the time when I visit branches unannounced, it goes like this?

I like your description. Having been in the position I can tell you that contacting a regional coach can be just as intimidating for a branch officer. In the past when seeking assistance I have got a lot of complaining, a lot of whinging the odd personal snipe and finally some assistance. The way forward is to lose the mistrust, respect we are all trying to do our jobs and they are all important.

So exactly where are you seeing the problem here Matt? What should we be doing?

From my branch point of view there aren't any problems. From BSACs point of view they would do well to ensure that those joining have met their regional coach. It encourages involvement. IIRC it was 5 years before I met our regional coach!

When I turn up at a branch I often get ?are you checking up on us then?? (no, it?s normally a social visit). People don?t ask for assistance, I know that a lot of DO?s would take exception to frequent visits from coaching that they haven?t asked for.

Well I doubt the mistrust will go away unless something is done to break it down. BSAC are losing members it may help to find a way to show all your members (not just DOs) that BSAC has a human face.

So where is the problem and fix? If I waited to be invited to a branch I would never visit any, if I just turn up then the branch is immediately on the defensive. I know that our coaches face exactly the same dilemma.

LOL consider the lot of a rep. I never want to see them. The first 30 mins I burden them with whatever is wrong with the company they represent...and only then...'of course there is one thing you might be able to help me with.' Don't discount the value of the preamble ;-)

Solutions please!

I actually think that BSAC have a good case for insisting that regional coaches are allowed in now and again, once a year maybe. Talking to DOs would appear to be a good way to start working together and to ensure they know what changes have been made. More importantly it allows ordinary members to see BSAC has a human side. However maybe there is a compromise, what about coaches setting themselves up on neutral ground, dive sites, dive shops, BSAC schools, once in a while in order to provide an opportunity for members to meet them.

Of course we could just do the school disco thing. We both sit on opposite sides of the room looking uneasy waiting for the other to make the first move.

:=9. Proactively seek out the problems and fix them.

We could even use the forums for that :-)

Careful people might disagree ;-)

:=10. MAKE IT EASIER FOR ME TO GO DIVING AND RUN A BRANCH

Would love to, that?s what we?re trying to do. But until we can identify the problems, be they communication, information or practical, then there?s not a lot that we can do. Simple practical points such as those you have raised go a long way towards doing that.

I have a very good idea of where the problems are in my branch. Some are not simple, they are down right scary complex interdependancies. But they still need fixing and you have to start sometime.

Regards
Matt

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

29-09-2003, 18:44

Thanks Matt

I can't reply to that, I have no detailed knowledge of the individual events and all are outside of my personal remit. But it shouldn't be happening, if it is then it is ultimately Councils responsibility for the systems and procedures that let it happen. Therefore it is partly my fault.

I have escalated it to Council, not as any kind of immediate fix for your particular problems, but as indicative of the type of things that I believe we should be looking at within the Shaping Our Future initiative. By working together, all of us, I don't think that there's anything that can't be fixed or at least made easier. I just hope that we can all make it happen.

Regards

Keith L

PeteM

29-09-2003, 19:26

Well Chaps,

No real surprises here are there? You?ve all sat up, preened your feathers and taken umbrage that someone can actually be critical of your best intentions and tireless work as volunteers but you don?t think twice about slagging off those that you perceive to be the hierarchy of BSAC that are also volunteers.

Lets make just one thing very clear, all of council are volunteers, just like you. Most of them like myself are active in our own branches, the coaching scheme, the instructor training scheme as well as holding down full time and demanding jobs. People have put their heads above the parapet because they care and for no other reason.

And we are trying to get things changed because we care - it would be less effort to walk away

The main problem, and we have a few, is that the vast majority of these postings seem to imply that everyone on council, NDC, ITS, etc has some kind of hidden agenda. They don?t - it?s our BSAC (all of us) and it?s as good or as bad as we make it or want to make it.

I've not seen any postings implying a hidden agenda, can you point these out please.

There are ways of communicating and ways of listening. Snips on the forum do not work but a sensible discussion or even better, a sensible discussion document outlining problems and proposing solutions will work. The upcoming Birmingham Dive Show or DOC is a good place to talk ? I?ll be at both, will you?

But from here it seems the communications is all one way, from the trenchs to generals. For example questions were raised at the last DOC regarding long hose use, the question was dismissed with a flipant reply and despite requests for clarification non has been forthcoming. This is an example of communication problems with NDC.

I can give plenty of other examples poor communication regarding many aspects of branch life but I'll probably get accused of sniping if I bring them up.

Finally, it is our BSAC and it?s up to all of us to work together to make it a success.

Agreed, so lets start talking rather than ignoring

Best????.Allan

Regards

Pete

Vic

29-09-2003, 19:40

> You?ve all sat up, preened your feathers and taken umbrage
> that someone can actually be critical of your best intentions
> and tireless work as volunteers but you don?t think twice
> about slagging off those that you perceive to be the hierarchy
> of BSAC that are also volunteers.

Stop right there.

No-one's slagging off anyone in "the heirarchy".

We're reporting on reasons why members are leaving.

If you choose to see that as personal criticism, then that is your own inference, and your own problem. It was neither stated nor implied.

If you would rather no-one reported such problems, then make sure the last person turns off the lights.

Vic.

vice-chairman

29-09-2003, 20:49

I rest my case. There is not one example of a properly detailed problem or proposed solution. Of course we know members are leaving and we?re doing something about it. There?s a whole bunch of people looking into why members are leaving and yes, the membership are being contacted for their opinion but not everyone, it would be far too expensive.

Communication is an issue that I and many others feel is important and one of the reasons why I first came on to council. The olive branch has been extended. Give me a proper discussion document with proposed solutions and we?ll look at it.

Allan

neil carter

29-09-2003, 20:50

Well Allan,

I've held off replying earlier because I'm not sure I like being accused of slagging off anyone, least of all people I respect for doing a job which I doubt I would be able to do in their place. Certainly my posts, and my references to others postings have contained no element of slagging off, and if I had time to re-read all the postings that have swirled through in the last 7/10 days, I doubt there has been any evidence of slagging off. Pete says it would be easier to walk away, it would. Vic says we're reporting on why (experienced) members are leaving, we are. Pete says there is no suggestion of a hidden agenda, there is not.

But you feel that when as senior Branch people we express our concerns about problems we are facing with "OUR" BSAC, we are "virtual sniping", "slagging off", and accusing of a "hidden agenda". Are we somehow failing to communicate here. I say again, re-read Matt's original post. No "virtual sniping", no "slagging off", no suggestion of a "hidden agenda". Just concern for his Branch and concern for his BSAC. Doesn't read like a "preening of feathers" to me.

It just seems so sad when legitimate concerns can be dismissed so ---- dismissively

Neil Carter

Vic

29-09-2003, 21:04

> I rest my case.

If that's your case, then I hope it's not you that will be dealing with this.

> There is not one example of a properly detailed problem or
> proposed solution.

We appear to be reading different fora. I've seen one within <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/1497.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/1497.html</a> for example; if you can't see that then I know where to get some cheap reading glasses...

> Of course we know members are leaving and we?re doing
> something about it.

Maybe you are, maybe you aren't. But these issues have been kicked around for several years, and *are* costing us some of our more experienced members - yet to date, we've been unable even to have a discussion. I was actually quite hopeful that these threads were beginning to blossom into such a dialogue - we've had an enormous amount of agreement from those "at the coal face", it wouldn't exactly take a miracle for some considered posting from HQ/Council/NDC/whoever to turn this into a real opportunity to sort things out. It was therefore something of an unpleasant surprise to see childish insults and sarcasm from the Vice Chairman, no less. Does your posting represent your official position as a BSAC officer, or your personal misapprehension, Allan? I respectfully submit that the title you use on these fora should reflect this...

> The olive branch has been extended.

You call that an olive branch? Slagging off a concensus opinion bsaed on actual situations as "sniping"? Then there really is no hope for us.

> Give me a proper discussion document with proposed solutions
> and we?ll look at it.

You've had a discussion of the problem. you've had a few tentative proposals to address the problem. If you refuse to accept these as material for discussion then we are all wasting our time.

Vic.

AndyCarroll

29-09-2003, 21:42

Hello Allan

Could you change the Safe Diving Practices to allow 1.4 ppo2 for bottom gas and 1.6 for deco please ?

The reason being that I would then be able to use my future Technical Training Certs with other likeminded BSAC members. I understand there are many other BSAC members who would like this also, particularly those with nitrox and trimix qualifications.

If you are not able to do that right now then could you advise me how it could happen and a possible timescale?

Thanks

Andy

TerryH

29-09-2003, 22:14

Allan.

We are both volunteers and should be agreed that an hour of my
time is no more or less valuable (to us as individuals) than an
hour of yours. The difference is not of time, but of effect.

The best I can manage in that hour is another training dive or
to be able to service some kit. Beneficial to my club yes, but
to BSAC, i'm just one of many.

In your hour you can make a decision or ratification that will
effect BSAC as a whole and the ultimate recipient of those
dictates are me and my fellow club members.

To that end it is imperative that we have a reliable and
effective means of supplying feedback, so you can recognise and
act on our concerns at the highest level.

Whether you personally think that this communication breakdown
(cue for a song) is a perceived problem or actual one. To us and
the other named club officers on here it is very real.

We have issues. They need listening to. We need a process where
we can at least feel that our BSAC is acting on our behalf.
To that end I think it is very important that these be raised
at DOC.

TerryH ? A672287 AD/OWI 1503 TO/EO SUCS ? BSAC 1624. Yes.

PS:
Quote: Allan Bretherton on TerryH 27/09/98
?You have a very approachable attitude which put your students
at ease?

All we are asking is that BSAC have an approachable attitude,
then maybe we might feel at ease.

TerryH

29-09-2003, 22:26

Allan

1. Could you change Advanced Nitrox to Allow acelerated deco.
This is a recognised (by all the other agencies) and a safe
technique for shortening the deco time (thus saving air and
reducing fatique/cold etc). Yet even if we use a richer mix
for deco, BSAC say we cannot reduce our stop times, even though
our calculations and computers say we can.

This is bad practice and negates the whole point of carrying
the gas in the first place.

2. Change 80% to a 100%. We are able to hold a stop at 6m!

TerryH

matt

29-09-2003, 22:57

Well Chaps,

No real surprises here are there?

Oh right, it was a little reverse psychology experiment. That makes it all alright then.

You?ve all sat up, preened your feathers and taken umbrage

I haven't! I am bitterly disapointed that someone in authority is willing to talk to the rank and file in such a demoralising way. IMO it has no place in the workplace and no place in diving clubs.

that someone can actually be critical of your best intentions and tireless work as volunteers but you don?t think twice about slagging off those that you perceive to be the hierarchy of BSAC that are also volunteers.

These threads have covered a lot of ground. I suggest that some people have at times 'gone off on one' it happens frequently in committee meetings. Now personally as a chair I tollerate it to an extent, thank people for the input and get back to the point.

BTW I think it is fair to say that most of the contributors on this thread are used to having their best intentions and tireless work slagged off on a regular basis.

Lets make just one thing very clear, all of council are volunteers, just like you. Most of them like myself are active in our own branches, the coaching scheme, the instructor training scheme as well as holding down full time and demanding jobs. People have put their heads above the parapet because they care and for no other reason.

Where exactly in the discussion has this been questioned? IMVHO sitting about whilst slapping each others backs and telling each other what a wonderful job we are doing achieves very little. Can we please get back to the original point of discussing the 'problems' of experienced divers leaving, a declining membership, declining instructor numbers, difficulties running branches and any connection between them.

The main problem, and we have a few, is that the vast majority of these postings seem to imply that everyone on council, NDC, ITS, etc has some kind of hidden agenda.

Sorry where do you get this from, I thought we moved on from that years ago.

They don?t - it?s our BSAC (all of us) and it?s as good or as bad as we make it or want to make it.

Exactly, can we please go about making it better wihout having to tip toe around. Let us assume we are all doing a good job. We all have our own priorities. That we are in fact equal. Maybe we can do the group hug thing when we have solved some problems.

Yes, I agree that not everyone can give up time for council, etc in addition to their branch and holding down a full time job but for Gods sake, at least try to make it just a little easier for those that are.

How? By saying everything is fine. That does not make life any easier for my branch officers or instructors. We have reversed a declining membership and now our lives are harder than ever. They are likely to remain like that until some specific areas are addressed by our chosen agency who's guidelines we attempt to implement. Now if you would like to help me build a successful dive club please help.

We do listen but cannot do everything at once. Look at the council reports on the web site to see just what we are trying to do.

<a href="http://www.bsac.org/services/minutes0503.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/services/minutes0503.htm</a>
Item 13. I see that 'multi-agency' clubs are being discouraged. A mistake IMVHO.

Opening up has been vital to our branch turn around. The majority coming through the door are now PADI qualified. They come to join a pro-active dive club. We explain that as a BSAC member they get access to training, 3rd party insurance and a self-cert medical. BSAC membership enables them to have a greater involvement in the club. Put like that most join BSAC about 10 mins after joining our club, a few leave it until after a couple dives just to make sure we are not going to follow them around with a clip board (a genuine concern of a recent PADI joiner). IIRC we have 2 non-BSAC members in our cosmopolitan 'multi-agency' club.

Still I am sure NDC know all this, I am sure they have contacted the minority of branches that are increasing their memberships and asked how they are doing it. I am sure there is a good reason why they have decided not to assist in making multi-agency dive clubs easier to run.

Look at the annual reports to see how the BSAC has improved, look at the AGM reports and DOC reports, look at the new Diver Training Scheme, the new Dive Manual and the revised Instructor Training Scheme as well as the travel club, AA and Sea Start to name but a few.

I am sorry Allan but none of the initiatives are of much interest because they fail to address my number one problem, progression. The new courses are excellent, but I do not have the instructors to deliver them. The new ITS has many benefits but is long winded. The AA and Travel clubs are useful extras but are unlikely to hold people.

There are ways of communicating and ways of listening. Snips on the forum do not work

Your opinion. I have implemented all sorts of things as a result of heated debates and odd comments made on these fora. IMVHO they have prooved very useful. They provide access to a cross section of divers and the clubs they belong to.

but a sensible discussion or even better, a sensible discussion document outlining problems and proposing solutions will work.

I appreciate the sentiment. I would ask you to consider that we are not always in a position to go straight to the answer. Sometimes it has to be worked out.

Finally, it is our BSAC and it?s up to all of us to work together to make it a success.

I write from the point of view of one chairman attempting to run one club which is currently on the rise. Thats all I know. I would very much like to get to the point where I feel as if I am indeed working with BSAC rather than largely inspite of them. Whichever my current priority is to my branch and their priority is simply to go diving.

Regards
Matt

vice-chairman

30-09-2003, 11:13

Hi Terry,

You know that I can?t do this for 4 very good reasons

1. There is a technical group set up to look at issues of this nature

2. We are a democracy. Proposals would come from the technical group to the NDC. NDC would then present to council outlining all the pros and cons and any cost implication

3. Council, as with any proposal, would debate this and, if approved, release the information to the membership

4. Perhaps a little long winded but better than an autocratic regime don?t you think?

However, what I can do is forward your request to the appropriate people and get the ball rolling

Best????.Allan

andycarroll

30-09-2003, 11:52

Hi Allan

So we have a technical group chosen to discuss technical matters. They make a proposal to the NDC ? and they then represent it to the non technical council who then redebate it and put it to the members. If that is true then what is the purpose of the technical group if what they advise is then redebated and why would there be a need to 'represent' the proposal to the NDC ?

I am not being negative Allan, but I am beginning to understand why it is so hard to change things.

Do you have details on the 'technical group' and who to contact with regards to these matters?

Thanks

Andy

matt

30-09-2003, 12:13

Hi Terry

1. Could you change Advanced Nitrox to Allow acelerated deco.

BSAC have an accelerated deco course, ERD.

This is a recognised (by all the other agencies)

IANTD do not sanction accelerated at Advanced. ITDA do not have an Advanced grade.

and a safe
technique for shortening the deco time (thus saving air and
reducing fatique/cold etc).

There are risk and decompression strategy issues which are not taught on the Advanced course, baleout comes to mind.

Yet even if we use a richer mix
for deco, BSAC say we cannot reduce our stop times, even though
our calculations and computers say we can.

Yes you can, but you must do the correct course, ERD.

This is bad practice and negates the whole point of carrying
the gas in the first place.

AIUI, IANTDs thinking is that decompression diving is inherrently riskier in DCI terms than no-stop diving. Breathing 50% on stops calculated for your weaker bottom gas gives you a safety margin and is a progressive step to making the more critical gas switches required at ERD. ITDAs approach is that anyone using Nitrox and going into deco will have a twinset, so you teach them an ERD course. None of the Advanced courses teach twinset skills, they are single tank qualifications.

2. Change 80% to a 100%. We are able to hold a stop at 6m!

Agreed. I can go cave diving and even solo dive (on a rope) with BSAC as long as I have the relevant training and experience. But apparently switching to my 80% stage at 9m as I was taught to, is far too dangerous!

If people are trained let them use their training. Nothing very technical about that.

Regards
Matt

vice-chairman

30-09-2003, 12:58

Hi Andy,

I will explain this if only to clarify the position.

NDC is a sub-group on council and like council, is split into working groups. The working groups have agreed tasks and responsibilities. Within NDC some of the working groups are:

? Re-breather working group
? R & D Technical Group
? ITS & BOE
? Diver Training Group

Plus others as and when necessary.

Each group of 3 or 4 or 5 or what ever is needed work on their specific project then reports back to NDC, the technical authority of the BSAC.

To state the obvious, we are a members club and council is nothing more than the custodians of the club. Council is responsible to the membership for the good management of the club and its finances.

Now, as you and others want to decompress on 100% O2 (or any other change for that matter) council have to consider the impact on the other 40,000 members. This, or any other change could (emphasise could) have a cost effect, safety effect, legal effect and a whole plethora of other possible effects. As custodians of the club it is our duty to manage the club for the benefit of the vast majority of the members. If this is long and dragged out then so be it.

Council, NDC and the working groups are actively pursuing quite a number of projects and each has to be financially viable and justifiable. As you know, in the last year or so we have launched the new diver-training scheme, the new dive manual, revised the instructor-training scheme and are continuing to work on re-breather and trimix projects. All, without exception, have be financially justifiable and produced a small but useful profit for the benefit of all members, not just a few.

I trust this clarifies the position

Regards?..Allan

andycarroll

30-09-2003, 13:47

vice-chairman

30-09-2003, 14:12

Hi Allan

I really wasn't trying to cause a ruck, if the info was on the website then I would never have asked. I read through the constitution, Articles, and rules before I posted here. (Oops, actually just found it here <a href="http://www.bsac.com/about/structur.htm" >http://www.bsac.com/about/structur.htm</a> Sorry :o) )

I am trying to read through the structure and SDP to find a way around my request without BSAC having to change anything at all, as I understand that what maybe suitable for me is not necessarily suitable for others, hence my question. I really have no gripe with the BSAC council at all, and I am happy to be a BSAC member.

Thankyou for clarifying that for me.

Andy

Hi Andy,

Thanks for this. The clarification was for all forum users benefit. Your right about the web site though, just 1 or 2 omissions. I've already spoken to our technical department this morning and the details you require (NDC structure, etc) will be up-dated and posted during October

Cheers.........Allan

Philip Smith

30-09-2003, 14:30

:=> 3. Allow all divers certified by HSE approved agencies to
:=> dive to the limit of there qualification
:=
:=Out of interest, how many "HSE-approved agencies" are there? I can think of one - GUE. I'm pretty sure the rest escaped formal HSE assessment under grandfather clauses (ie they were there before the HSE were).

AIUI the HSE must approve all courses taught in the UK.

Careful here -- HSE regulates diving instruction given on a commercial basis. HSE has no control over amateur BSAC training or diving and in my view should therefore have nothing to do with deciding which qualifications should be accepted at face value for branch dives. If your request for diving to be allowed to the limit of non-BSAC qualifications were to be granted, it should be the BSAC NDO/NDC who decides which qualifications qualify.

Philip Smith

Chris Cherrington

30-09-2003, 15:12

Andy Nye

30-09-2003, 15:30

Have a trawl in this

TerryH

30-09-2003, 16:41

:=1. Could you change Advanced Nitrox to Allow acelerated deco.

BSAC have an accelerated deco course, ERD.

And it takes three days, is very involved. Costs over ?200 +
other expenses and for what?
So I can carry a pony/stage with upto 80% in it?

:=This is a recognised (by all the other agencies)

IANTD do not sanction accelerated at Advanced. ITDA do not have an Advanced grade.

TDI, DSAT, ANDI, ETA ........
Some do, some dont. Wasnt being specific about the level either.

:=and a safe
:=technique for shortening the deco time (thus saving air and
:=reducing fatique/cold etc).

There are risk and decompression strategy issues which are not taught on the Advanced course, baleout comes to mind.

Then limit the percentage. What's wrong with a bottom mix
of say 27% and an accelerated deco mix of 50%? There is plenty
of scope in the current course to include bailout issues as
part of the redundancy section.

:=Yet even if we use a richer mix
:=for deco, BSAC say we cannot reduce our stop times, even though
:=our calculations and computers say we can.

Yes you can, but you must do the correct course, ERD.

As above.

:=This is bad practice and negates the whole point of carrying
:=the gas in the first place.

AIUI, IANTDs thinking is that decompression diving is inherrently riskier in DCI terms than no-stop diving. Breathing 50% on stops calculated for your weaker bottom gas gives you a safety margin and is a progressive step to making the more critical gas switches required at ERD. ITDAs approach is that anyone using Nitrox and going into deco will have a twinset, so you teach them an ERD course. None of the Advanced courses teach twinset skills, they are single tank qualifications.

As a Nitrox Instructor I have to teach the BSAC syllabus, but
when we get to the best bit (what the gas can do for you), I have to ignore or gloss over what to me is one of the main
advantages.

The reduction of deco time by using a richer mix.

As for the 80%/100% buisness. Far to risky.
BSAC divers cant hold stops, dont you know that?

Rgds
TerryH

Philip Smith

30-09-2003, 20:42

Just a thought - BSAC courses are taught for profit by schools like Andark. This makes BSAC an "HSE Approved Agency" surely??

Yes, but that has nothing to do with branch activities.

Philip Smith

Nigel Hewitt

30-09-2003, 22:20

Post removed by request.

nigelH

matt

30-09-2003, 22:21

:=:=> 3. Allow all divers certified by HSE approved agencies to
:=:=> dive to the limit of there qualification
:=:=
:=:=Out of interest, how many "HSE-approved agencies" are there? I can think of one - GUE. I'm pretty sure the rest escaped formal HSE assessment under grandfather clauses (ie they were there before the HSE were).

:=AIUI the HSE must approve all courses taught in the UK.

Careful here -- HSE regulates diving instruction given on a commercial basis. HSE has no control over amateur BSAC training or diving and in my view should therefore have nothing to do with deciding which qualifications should be accepted at face value for branch dives. If your request for diving to be allowed to the limit of non-BSAC qualifications were to be granted, it should be the BSAC NDO/NDC who decides which qualifications qualify.

Phil I have never condoned the idea of any qualification being accepted at face value. Every diver should be required to do a checkout. I would also suggest that following the SDPs on adventurous diving (work up, with a buddy you know etc) is good and sensible diving practice.

The buddy has to accept the qualification, the marshal, the checkout diver, the DO, the committee, the branch membership and yes the NDO. You can exclude someone at any of those points because you don't like their qualification. What I am suggesting is that the NDO excludes very few people at the top end.

Seems to me if you want to be an inclusive organisation you need a very very very good reason to start excluding people. What do you think?

Regards
Matt

Philip Smith

01-10-2003, 00:18

Phil I have never condoned the idea of any qualification being accepted at face value.

Ok Matt, perhaps "face value" wasn't the best way of paraphrasing you. You suggested, "Allow all divers certified by HSE approved agencies to dive to the limit of their qualification". You've now qualified that with sensible precautions. The only point I am taking issue with here is the need to rely on the HSE's approval of other training agencies. My view is that the decisions on which agencies' qualifications and limits to accept for branch (non-commercial) diving should be made within BSAC, without being tied to any restrictions imposed or allowances made by the statutory regulator of commercial diving.

Philip Smith

Chris Cherrington

01-10-2003, 12:56

Have a trawl in this

Well the HSE Diving home page reads "(including recreational diving)".

My view is that branch activities and training are subject to HSE regs just as much as anything done by a pay-for school.

Chris

PeteM

01-10-2003, 13:45

My view is that branch activities and training are subject to HSE regs just as much as anything done by a pay-for school.

There was a big discussion on the instructor forum recently about this see this link
<a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/instforum/posts/2242.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/instforum/posts/2242.html</a>

The second item in the thread (mine) is a link to a quote from a non connected individual that has been in contact the HSE and gives thier view on the matter

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

01-10-2003, 13:46

Well the HSE Diving home page reads "(including recreational diving)".

My view is that branch activities and training are subject to HSE regs just as much as anything done by a pay-for school.

Can we knock this old chestnut on the head please folks, we?ve been through this enough times already. Your view is wrong Chris, simple as that.

HSE regulations do =NOT= apply to ordinary branch member to member activities. The HSE is responsible for the implementation of the Health and Safety At Work Act (1974), the key phrase is ?At Work?. Branch members on branch activities are not at work, HSE regulations do not apply. Although that does not excuse anybody from standard best practice such as assessing risks and taking due care.

There are some activities within the BSAC, our schools for instance, that do fall under the HSE remit. But normal branch activities do not.

HTH

Keith L

Chris Cherrington

01-10-2003, 14:46

There are some activities within the BSAC, our schools for instance, that do fall under the HSE remit. But normal branch activities do not.

HTH

Keith L

The original question was about HSE "approved agencies" Sorry to revisit the 'old chestnut' which HAS been done to death that was not my intent.

Chris

TerryH

01-10-2003, 15:03

:=Well the HSE Diving home page reads "(including recreational diving)".
:=
:=My view is that branch activities and training are subject to HSE regs just as much as anything done by a pay-for school.

Can we knock this old chestnut on the head please folks, we?ve been through this enough times already. Your view is wrong Chris, simple as that.

HSE regulations do =NOT= apply to ordinary branch member to member activities. The HSE is responsible for the implementation of the Health and Safety At Work Act (1974), the key phrase is ?At Work?. Branch members on branch activities are not at work, HSE regulations do not apply. Although that does not excuse anybody from standard best practice such as assessing risks and taking due care.

There are some activities within the BSAC, our schools for instance, that do fall under the HSE remit. But normal branch activities do not.

Agreed it has been done to death, yet it still keeps surfacing.

This is exactly the sort of thing that we have been bleating on
about for at least 3 years now.

If I go onto the BSAC website put in HSE, I get this:
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/news/hse120201.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/news/hse120201.htm</a>

I am sure I read somewhere about a meeting between BSAC and
HSE. I also remember a newsflash about Instructors being
questioned at Inland sites by HSE.

So to finaly clarify this issue in the public domain (or at
least the BSAC domain) can we please have the person
responsible for this (sorry Keith not you) in BSAC. make a
definative statement on the website?

Once done this topic is forever closed because we have the
offical BSAC view. Anybody asks and they just get reffered to
that page. If matters change then the page can be updated.

This is absolute common sense. It is not involved and the
information does exist at BSAC HQ. It does not need a technical
solution or stacks of work. Just a simple one page detailed
description of BSAC's position.

Want an example of what should be on the website?
How about this not perfect example, but covers all the relevant
points with most importantly, refferences and good advice.

"HSE INSPECTORS
A notice from the HSE recently landed on my desk at home, explaining that HSE inspectors were going to start checking dive plans and other safety related features at various dive sites up and down the country.
All xxxx divers, either Instructors or Dive Leaders should be aware that the HSE Inspectors are only concerned with commercial operations.
As volunteers we are not subject to their control, and if approached please be polite to the Inspector but inform him that you are xxxx, diving in a club environment and not in a commercial capacity.
It would be prudent to have some form of proof - your membership card or qualification book should suffice.
It is highly probable that the Inspector will want to talk through your planned activities, please take a little time and listen to any comments they have to make, none of us are so good we cannot learn.
There are various HSE documents, which form the basis for diving guidelines one such ACOP is HSC - Recreational Diving Projects ISBN-0-7176-1496-4.
It is available through any HMSO bookshop, and any Club DO would be well advised to get and read a copy."

You can probably guess where it came from, but Keith; If you
want to stop these posts, the only way is to make sure the info
is on the site and bang up to date.

TerryH

matt

01-10-2003, 16:42

My view is that the decisions on which agencies' qualifications and limits to accept for branch (non-commercial) diving should be made within BSAC, without being tied to any restrictions imposed or allowances made by the statutory regulator of commercial diving.

Phil we appear to be in agreement.

I used the HSE list as a simple point of reference. What I would like to see is BSAC finding a place for anyone that is qualified, wants to dive and join a club. Maybe you could suggest more acceptable wording that achieves that.

Regards
Matt

Philip Smith

01-10-2003, 23:22

What I would like to see is BSAC finding a place for anyone that is qualified, wants to dive and join a club. Maybe you could suggest more acceptable wording that achieves that.

I don't think the problem is one of wording. Anyone who has a qualification from an agency recognised by BSAC can join a branch and dive -- but within BSAC limits. The powers that be simply seem not to agree with the principle you're suggesting of letting divers with non-BSAC qualifications dive to the limit of their qualification on BSAC branch dives.

Philip Smith

matt

02-10-2003, 00:32

:=What I would like to see is BSAC finding a place for anyone that is qualified, wants to dive and join a club. Maybe you could suggest more acceptable wording that achieves that.

I don't think the problem is one of wording. Anyone who has a qualification from an agency recognised by BSAC can join a branch and dive -- but within BSAC limits. The powers that be simply seem not to agree with the principle you're suggesting of letting divers with non-BSAC qualifications dive to the limit of their qualification on BSAC branch dives.

Then I think they are failing in their duty to encourage people to dive.

I would agree that there needs to be an amount of protection at the lower and intermediate ends. But there needs to be the freedom to allow those that can to excel.

Any thoughts?

Regards
Matt

Philip Smith

matt

02-10-2003, 01:25