The experienced diver and the branch. [Archive]

Andy Nye

25-09-2003, 17:39

Just a insight to why i left BSAC but still stayed with my branch, this is propably the same as most other divers of my BSAC standard... I was a member of BSAC for 5 years gaining Dive Leader/ advanced nitrox and assist club instructor.In that time i was DO & TO for 2 years , EO for 2 years,boat officer for a year ( had to give this up due to being away for work ).

The reason i left BSAC was due to many changes into what i can do and what i can't, mainly on the teaching side and being the DO, which at the time i took position was that the only NQI we had was never there due to work, and the committee thought that because of the dives i did, working as a commercial diver on a dive vessel aswell that i was suited..I did attempt to pass the CI exam , but was not up to standard.But thats another story.Then being told that if i leave BSAC that any quailifications that i had gained were then void IE Nitrox ticket. i thought, think NOT, ( if you pass your car test, you have a licence til your 70,unless health or a ban takes it away from you ).. i passed o levels at school, i took a test and got a certificate saying i passed, so when i left school, they can't and didn't take them away.... See where i'm comming from .*** May not be good at putting myself across with words , like Terry H ***

So, what can BSAC offer me to stay,,,,,,, NOTHING

a) I can read as many dive mags i want to during t-breaks.
b) Have personal insurance to a high level,which the yearly
direct debt is only ? 7.73 a year more than a BSAC
membership fee.
c) I don't require any training or cheap courses to improve my
grading to have more badges on my undersuit.
d) Can dive with whom i like , when i like without having to
ring the DO or submit dive plans .

**** This is also some views i get when chatting to some PADI divers, which i might add can join our branch as it is open to any agency ****

WHY DO I STAY AT MY BRANCH. well i don't really know to be honest.

My branch charges ? 80 for membership, to which we have a hard boat, compressor , 6 sets of club kit... we hire pool at local sports centre.

I don't need the boat to dive from ( i dive during the week from boats if i want to,i dive at work plus i am in the process of buying a dive charter business ) i do however give up my freetime and cox the boat at weekends to let others dive to which is cheap as they are only charged ? 7.50 a wreck dive. How our boat is berthed actually costs me money for my services , that i never claim for or been offered any payment in return.

I pump my cylinders at work or my mate has a compressor, so ther again i don't need the clubs one.
Don't need kit,so no point there.
i'm not quailified & a member of BSAC to train people, so i don't go in the pool, unless my kids are on half term and want a swim.

Although, this is my me and can't speak for other members.

So i can see why the likes of Terry H can get the hump with BSAC very easily, the hours they put in they should get something back in return for thier efforts,,, especially when they put the hours in to help others.

Come on BSAC pull your fingers out, open your eyes and ears and act on advise that Terry h & team are putting to you.

Andy

Andy Nye

25-09-2003, 19:34

Sorry , forgot to put that i am trained in SAA and HSE

Never been PADI

Don't dive under anyones banner whilst recreational diving except my own.

Andy

TerryH

25-09-2003, 19:44

Come on BSAC pull your fingers out, open your eyes and ears and act on advise that Terry h & team are putting to you.

Now I know something is wrong when I agree with Andy!

What I find increasingly frustrating is not so much the issue
with alternate agencies (although that's bad enough), but the
complete lack of importance attached to correcting, inacurate
and misleading information.

Yet again seems that parts of an important document have
been "tweaked" without informing the membership. Please tell me
how difficult it is to add a date and source to each page as
its changed and add the amendments to an update list?

It's exactly the same circumstances as when they "tweaked" the
SDC standard. We have Advanced divers who are NOT Advanced
divers. Why? Because they were PADI Rescue and got PRM signed
up after the SDC eqivilent was changed to Divemaster. Took
about a year to filter through that this had changed. Pity the
BOH was printed in that year, with the incorrect information.
Think how much easier it would be if the website had a BOH
ubdate section!

So what's different in it now? What has changed? Dont ask me
I'm still in 2002 (the date on the book).

Diving is changing. The club needs to change with it. If they
stagnate and follow the doctrine of the past then BSAC will end
up as a shadow of it's former self.

My real fear is that those entrenched within the BSAC heirarchy
dont really want this change and are prepared to carry on
regardless as long as there status is maintained.

TerryH

Andy Nye

25-09-2003, 19:50

:=
:=Come on BSAC pull your fingers out, open your eyes and ears and act on advise that Terry h & team are putting to you.
:=

Now I know something is wrong when I agree with Andy!

Oh i'm honoured now Terry. am i now on your list of Dive Buddies,,,,,,, please, i'll give ya my number ... ;-)

Andy

keep up the good work mate .... hey SDC's ,,, is that Save Diving club Campain ?

TerryH

25-09-2003, 22:19

:=

Oh i'm honoured now Terry. am i now on your list of Dive Buddies,,,,,,, please, i'll give ya my number ... ;-)

:

Always were Andy. we might not agree on many things, but will
always apreciate a diver that helps other divers (that's you
by the way).

=
keep up the good work mate .... hey SDC's ,,, is that Save Diving club Campain ?

No it's ******** Duff Coursenotes (again).

Rgds
TerryH

[Carefull... Keith L]

edward haynes

25-09-2003, 22:31

Andy

Congratulations for taking on the responsibilities of DO, TO and EO. It sounds like you put a fair bit back into your Branch.

When you were a DO, I take it you happily allowed non-BSAC people (and I don?t mean those looking to join your old Branch) to dive on Branch dives. The risk you took was that if something had gone wrong, you as DO, would not have been supported by the BSAC Public Liability Insurance as you ?knowingly? allowed practices which were contra to BSAC guidance.

Now you are a non-BSAC person diving with your old Branch you are putting the current DO in the same situation. ?I have insurance?, I hear you say! All well and good, but your insurance doesn?t cover the Branch DO ? it covers you. If something happened to you and you made a claim against any Branch member they would find themselves having to conduct their own defence and finance any damages from their own pockets.

:- So, what can BSAC offer me to stay,,,,,,, NOTHING
a) I can read as many dive mags i want to during t-breaks.

So can anyone.

:-b) Have personal insurance to a high level,which the yearly
direct debt is only ? 7.73 a year more than a BSAC
membership fee.

That?s great, but it won?t protect BSAC Branch members if you make a claim.

:- c) I don't require any training or cheap courses to improve my grading to have more badges on my undersuit.

After 25 years diving I still learn something when I attend training courses, even the ones I?ve done before. Technology and practices move on.

:- d) Can dive with whom i like , when i like without having to ring the DO or submit dive plans .

So can any member of BSAC, there called ?private dives?.

[snip] I?m not interested in hearsay ? good first record though.

Edward

PS. I take it when you joined BSAC your SAA and HSE where recognised via SALT to enable you (if you wanted) to train to the next BSAC diver grade?

Andy Nye

25-09-2003, 23:10

Hi Edward

Congratulations for taking on the responsibilities of DO, TO and EO. It sounds like you put a fair bit back into your Branch.

**** Thanks , but i enjoyed it as it filled in spare gaps of my spare time. I wasn't looking for praise to to gain brownie points with any one. ****

When you were a DO, I take it you happily allowed non-BSAC people (and I don?t mean those looking to join your old Branch) to dive on Branch dives. The risk you took was that if something had gone wrong, you as DO, would not have been supported by the BSAC Public Liability Insurance as you ?knowingly? allowed practices which were contra to BSAC guidance.

**** We only had BSAC persons in the club at the time,it was after my runnings with the Instructor scheme that i got the SAA involved, which turned the branch into a multi agency one , very quickly ****

Now you are a non-BSAC person diving with your old Branch you are putting the current DO in the same situation. ?I have insurance?, I hear you say! All well and good, but your insurance doesn?t cover the Branch DO ? it covers you. If something happened to you and you made a claim against any Branch member they would find themselves having to conduct their own defence and finance any damages from their own pockets.

**** I'm insured ok, to cover my back fully and any diver i dive with. but as 99 % of my diving is solo and outside of club dives, it's not an issue ****

So, what can BSAC offer me to stay,,,,,,, NOTHING
a) I can read as many dive mags i want to during t-breaks.

So can anyone.

b) Have personal insurance to a high level,which the yearly
direct debt is only ? 7.73 a year more than a BSAC
membership fee.

That?s great, but it won?t protect BSAC Branch members if you make a claim.

c) I don't require any training or cheap courses to improve my grading to have more badges on my undersuit.

After 25 years diving I still learn something when I attend training courses, even the ones I?ve done before. Technology and practices move on.

*** And your point is ?, are you saying that i will learn more from doing BSAC courses run by volenteer instructors than anywhere else ,,,,,,,, i think not..... if i need to do a course or want to progress, then i'll seek out where the course is, is it run on my time off,.... ***

d) Can dive with whom i like , when i like without having to ring the DO or submit dive plans .

So can any member of BSAC, there called ?private dives?.

**** I was always led to believe that if you dive a private dive then you are NOT insured via BSAC if the DO is not informed. ****

Andy

PS. I take it when you joined BSAC your SAA and HSE where recognised via SALT to enable you (if you wanted) to train to the next BSAC diver grade?

**** i don't want to be up another level, i'm happy being a BSAC DL, which to my mind is the best grade that any diver can get in BSAC, it is a great shame that when old ADVANCED diver was taken away from in branch training, that our club lost alot of experienced DL's AD's ,,, mainly by them clubing together and getting own boats ,,,, but there again at the time we had lots on in branch and anti BSAC politics ****

ric morte

25-09-2003, 23:26

...Then being told that if i leave BSAC that any quailifications that i had gained were then void IE Nitrox ticket. i thought, think NOT, ( if you pass your car test, you have a licence til your 70,unless health or a ban takes it away from you ).. i passed o levels at school, i took a test and got a certificate saying i passed, so when i left school, they can't and didn't take them away.... See where i'm comming from...

So the moment I leave BSAC or even fail to renew my subscription on time, all my BSAC diving qualifications are worth diddly squat?????

If so, is this true with other certifying bodies (PADI, SAA, SSA, CMAS, NAUI)

Ric

Vic

25-09-2003, 23:52

> Now you are a non-BSAC person diving with your old Branch you
> are putting the current DO in the same situation. ?I have
> insurance?, I hear you say! All well and good, but your
> insurance doesn?t cover the Branch DO ? it covers you. If
> something happened to you and you made a claim against any
> Branch member they would find themselves having to conduct
> their own defence and finance any damages from their own
> pockets.

That's the sort of thing we're talking about.

The other members of Andy's club are faced with a fairly stark choice - break BSAC procedures, or banish a useful and respected member of the club. If it were my club, I know what I'd do...

So then we go on to the fact that the club needs its own liability insurance. So it gets it.

And all the while, that branch is getting less and less value for money from its subscription to BSAC; sooner or later, the club (or at least significant portions of it) think "stuff that, it's no longer worth my while".

It would be *trivial* to enable clubs to accept a list of "approved" qualifications *at face value*. It might cost us a smidge more in insurance - that's a price worth paying, when you consider the alternative. Instead, we get protracted arguments about the BSAC way, interspersed with disingenuous ideas of "private dives". And we're losing members. Spot the correlation...

C'mon BSAC, the clock's ticking...

Vic.

TerryH

26-09-2003, 01:16

I think you are very much missing the point Edward.

Andy wants to dive with his BSAC friends, they are after all his
mates and I think (like an awful lot of us) he has earned the
right to choose the sort of diving he wants to do.

Instead of belating him for (shock gasp) diving outside BSAC
(Isnt this what some members of council do?) wouldnt it be more
helpful to consider why he feels this way and how we might
accomodate him.

If Insurance is the issue then why not approach the
underwriters and clarify the issue. So we pay a few extra quid
in premiums to facilitate "guest" divers. Cant see many
objecting as it really does have quite an effect on many clubs.

Imagine this as a scenario.
Club member comes up to the DO and asked permission to dive.
He tells the DO that he is diving within his TDI standards and
will be using 100% O2 for accelerated deco.

As TDI is now a fully BSAC sancioned agencie, he gets full
permission from the DO and is fully insured by BSAC.

Result, happy club member diving within the fold and BSAC
retains another senior diver. Bedsides isnt it preferable to
have properly sancioned (and safe dives) than the rediculous
fudge we have at the moment of calling it a "private dive" to
get round the issue.

TerryH

TerryH

26-09-2003, 01:27

C'mon BSAC, the clock's ticking...

What BSAC seem to forget is that many of us dont work for BSAC,
but our club and our friends. Its those divers, not HQ
that motivate us to put in all these hours.

If a another agency provides us with a similar or better
backup, but accepts other agency qualifications without
reservations, the so called loyalty factor would evaporate.

There is a growing number of us (many are DO's TO's etc.) who
are very disatisfied with BSAC's approach.

As Vic says "the clock's ticking".

TerryH

matt

26-09-2003, 02:21

Edward

I have a lot of respect for the time and effort you have put into BSAC. You have often been the voice of reason in a storm of confusion. I have one simple question to ask.

Why did you join BSAC?

Regards
Matt

Paul B

26-09-2003, 08:16

That (as far as I see it) is one of the main problems - BSAC is now run by the lawyers & accountants not by Council!

BSAC should be facilitating diving not restricting its self out of existance by more & more rules (sorry guidelines)& regulations.

We should be encommpasing divers & their qualifications from other organisations & allowing them to dive with us, they would then see how the club enviroment works & hopefully join.

Finally? In the future if the EU or national goverment tries to control recriational diving BSAC as the national body should fight any proposals they are supposed to represent us the branches! Not control us the branches!

Just my ramblings!

Paul

edward haynes

26-09-2003, 09:37

Why did you join BSAC?

Matt

25 years ago, BSAC where the only guys on the military scene. I had seen JC?s Undersea World and had the opportunity to experience it. My first dive cost US$10.00 to the hotel and they took us diving. Then an adventurous training place game up, for 2 weeks diver training, finishing with a dive in the Blue Hole ? all for ?7.50.

When I returned to the UK I visited the 3 local clubs, one was BSAC the other two independents. SAA were in existence, but not in my area.

Why am I still a BSAC member?

The BSAC has enabled me to do the type of diving I wish to do. I have no desire to dive professionally ? commercial diving or dive instruction, to me neither of these activities sounds like fun. Current diving involves both Branch diving and private dives.

I get a lot of pleasure from seeing people develop new skills or mastering ones they are struggling with. I?m an AD/OWI, but not currently active in a Branch. Having spent the best part of 10 years helping to develop a Branch, which now contains a number of ?home grown? individuals who are involved in the Regional Coaching Scheme as Coaches, I?m taking a rest.

With the spare time I?ve now got I can assist BSAC, as an organisation, to develop and refine its practices and procedures. My latest contribution is a re-write of the Branch Officers Handbook (which should have been issued last May ? as the Project Manager the buck stops with me).

Have I ever disagreed with BSAC? Yes. I thought computers where dangerous and couldn?t understand why they where accepted (until I bought one). This taught me a valuable lesson ?just because it?s new doesn?t make it bad?. I now consider how new technologies or practices would work in an ordinary Branch (if there is such a thing) before forming an opinion. After all it?s the support a Branch gives that makes it worthwhile being a member. In the early days of Nitrox I saw a Branch collapse because 4 members commandeered Branch equipment to do their diving, the remaining 25 just gave up, as they weren?t doing any. The Branch folded, 2 of the 4 also had to give up because they couldn?t finance the backup required without a Branch.

Is there anything I would change? Yes. The first would be co-ordination of communication (as far as I can tell) no one Council Member has taken on this responsibility. All Council members are approachable and talk to Branches etc, but what about the conflicting advice (and old articles) on the Web? Keith is doing a great job with the IT infrastructure, but I don?t see Web content as falling into his remit. Rather than complain I?m prepared to do something about it, if you remember this was one of the topics I stood for as Hon Sec ? and I will do so again next year.

Will I leave and follow another organisation? Unlikely, each is servicing a different market.

Hope that answers your question?

Edward

edward haynes

26-09-2003, 09:56

Hi Andy

**** I'm insured ok, to cover my back fully and any diver i dive with. but as 99 % of my diving is solo and outside of club dives, it's not an issue ****

I?m sorry I haven?t explained my point well. I have no issue about you being insured, what I am attempting to say is your insurance company will not cover the actions (or inaction) of others which give rise to injury or damages to you. This applies whether you?re diving with a Branch or just as a group of friends.

So can any member of BSAC, there called ?private dives?.
**** I was always led to believe that if you dive a private dive then you are NOT insured via BSAC if the DO is not informed. ****

Providing the diving is not going to involve training, assessment or any other activity counting towards a diver qualification, and it doesn?t involve trainees or Ocean Divers, no the DO doesn?t HAVE to be informed, but it is courtesy.

BSAC Public Liability cover will still apply provided Safe Diving Practices are followed and a Risk Assessment is conducted (unless its recorded how do you prove one took place?).

Branch equipment and Branch Dives is, IMHO, a red herring.

Edward

Andy Nye

26-09-2003, 10:14

Edward

I don't know what your position is in BSAC,but after reading a couple of posts here i did have a quick trawl though the threads and saw you name, having said that i would only say that KIETH L is the only council member that spends great time on these boards controlling us lot , and YES i agree with some of his agruements and some intresting replies.If he can read the boards and make replies then why can't the REST OF THE COUNCIL........ people have put and counted the times the chairman / vice chairman reply and in my mind it's disgusting being the so called LEADER OF THE PACK and not getting involved.

I take it you ex forces,,, so put it like this chairman
( Platoon cdr ),,,,,Vice chairman ( Platoon sgt ), the members ( troops on the ground )......... well the troops are not getting the relevent orders, so what happens ,,,,,,,,, all hell breaks loose..

getting my drift..

The BSAC has enabled me to do the type of diving I wish to do. I have no desire to dive professionally ? commercial diving or dive instruction, to me neither of these activities sounds like fun.

**** Commercial diving is fun , trust me ,,,, you want to come and have a day at work with me ? ****

With the spare time I?ve now got I can assist BSAC, as an organisation, to develop and refine its practices and procedures.

**** wouldn't it be worth well, getting with the troops on the ground and getting what they want , making a plan and then carrying it out ****

My latest contribution is a re-write of the Branch Officers Handbook (which should have been issued last May ? as the Project Manager the buck stops with me).

**** I don't know whats involved , but it's late...as PROJECT MANAGER,surely if this was in your work place , your business would start to go under, no project = no income ;-) ****

Have I ever disagreed with BSAC? Yes. I thought computers where dangerous and couldn?t understand why they where accepted (until I bought one).

**** The likes of terry and others did a survey a few months ago, stating how many people in there branch had e:mail address, today this is the best method of keeping people up to date...My young lad ( who is 8 )is a member of the RNLI stormforce,he gets bi weekly e:mails from them with games , puzzles,colouring,competions etc to which he always looks forward to getting. now he has his own e:mail address at school so othr schools can chat to them, home e:mail address.......... so who is behind the times.****

Is there anything I would change? Yes. The first would be co-ordination of communication (as far as I can tell) no one Council Member has taken on this responsibility.

**** You now have the ammo, now go shoot the bullets ****

edward haynes

26-09-2003, 10:54

I think you are very much missing the point Edward.

Always possible when we only have text to go on.

Andy wants to dive with his BSAC friends, they are after all his mates and I think (like an awful lot of us) he has earned the right to choose the sort of diving he wants to do.

I don?t think this is quite what is being said. Andy wants to dive with his old Branch without joining it. If as a group of friends they just want to go diving, that?s up to them, but when the Branch gets involved in, say, planning ? top cover ? supplying a boat, then it?s no longer ?private? diving.

Instead of belating him for (shock gasp) diving outside BSAC (Isnt this what some members of council do?) wouldnt it be more helpful to consider why he feels this way and how we might accomodate him.

Sorry if I gave that impression.

If Insurance is the issue then why not approach the underwriters and clarify the issue. So we pay a few extra quid in premiums to facilitate "guest" divers. Cant see many objecting as it really does have quite an effect on many clubs.

Are you happy to pay for a non-member to use your Public Liability Insurance against yourself, sorry I?m not.

Your scenario:
Firstly must, IMHO, make the assumption that BSAC have agreed particular ?technical? (for want of a better word) standards that TDI align with, therefore a SALT would apply. Why should we BSAC pay for insurance cover for courses that don?t meet our specifications? There?s nothing preventing an individual taking out additional cover, but why should the whole membership pay.

Secondly, as it currently stands, the DO can only sanction diving to BSAC guidelines. If he/she knowingly authorises activities outside these then the Public Liability Insurance company MAY decide not to defend him/her if there was a claim. Its all hypothetical, because (to my knowledge) it?s not happened in BSAC, yet.

Edward

edward haynes

26-09-2003, 11:04

I'm only a voluntry helper, not on Council.

I don't know what your position is in BSAC,[snip]

**** Commercial diving is fun , trust me ,,,, you want to come and have a day at work with me ? ****

Each to their own.

With the spare time I?ve now got I can assist BSAC, as an organisation, to develop and refine its practices and procedures.

**** wouldn't it be worth well, getting with the troops on the ground and getting what they want , making a plan and then carrying it out ****

I issued a questionnaire this time last year and got 85 responses from a posible 15000 Branch committee members.

My latest contribution is a re-write of the Branch Officers Handbook (which should have been issued last May ? as the Project Manager the buck stops with me).

**** I don't know whats involved , but it's late...as PROJECT MANAGER,surely if this was in your work place , your business would start to go under, no project = no income ;-) ****

When dealing with volunteers, meeting timeframes becomes 'interesting'. Anyhow the BOH will be free.

Is there anything I would change? Yes. The first would be co-ordination of communication (as far as I can tell) no one Council Member has taken on this responsibility.

**** You now have the ammo, now go shoot the bullets ****

I would only have the bullets if the membership vote.

Edward

edward haynes

26-09-2003, 11:18

That (as far as I see it) is one of the main problems - BSAC is now run by the lawyers & accountants not by Council!

No, Council are aware that lawyers could make a killing (excuses the pun) if proper, safe guidance wasn?t in place and working.

BSAC should be facilitating diving not restricting its self out of existance by more & more rules (sorry guidelines)& regulations.

We live in an age where the ?No Win No Fee? culture is growing, if there where no ?rules (sorry guidelines)& regulations? dive buddies and/or Branch committee members would find themselves defending claims of negligence without an approved system to refer to.

We should be encommpasing divers & their qualifications from other organisations & allowing them to dive with us, they would then see how the club enviroment works & hopefully join.

You don?t know about the Welcome campaign or Statement of Alternate Training (SALT)?

Finally? In the future if the EU or national goverment tries to control recriational diving BSAC as the national body should fight any proposals they are supposed to represent us the branches! Not control us the branches!

So who do the think protected (and is still fighting) your ?rights? to dive on wrecks.

Edward

edward haynes

26-09-2003, 11:34

Ric

So the moment I leave BSAC or even fail to renew my subscription on time, all my BSAC diving qualifications are worth diddly squat?????

Not true. Your BSAC Public Liability insurance ceases the day your membership expires; there is no period of grace. But your diver qualification(s) will still be recognised even years later.

If so, is this true with other certifying bodies (PADI, SAA, SSA, CMAS, NAUI)

CMAS is not in itself a training agency, but a body of national agencies. To get a CMAS card you would have to prove you where a qualified diver with one of national bodies, like SAA. (BSAC members can get a CMAS card via HQ through the SAA).

PADI is slightly different in it conducts courses; it?s not a members organisation.

Edward

Dominic Humphries

26-09-2003, 11:39

:=We should be encommpasing divers & their qualifications from other organisations & allowing them to dive with us, they would then see how the club enviroment works & hopefully join.

You don?t know about the Welcome campaign or Statement of Alternate Training (SALT)?

But the point being made is that a SALT is worthless if it DOESN'T allow someone trained with another agency to dive within their qualifications - you might as well not have one at all as have one that only recognises partial qualifications.

Either way you wind up with a diver qualified to do something and BSAC telling him not to.

If somebody is qualified to use pure Oxygen to do deco, he either:
Doesn't get a SALT and can't use O2 to deco.
Gets a SALT that recognises he's trained, but forbids him from using pure O2 anyway

Same outcome - if you want to retain this member, waving the SALT flag won't help you. Accepting his qualifications in total is the only thing that will help, but BSAC refuses to do this.

PeteM

26-09-2003, 11:45

Firstly must, IMHO, make the assumption that BSAC have agreed particular ?technical? (for want of a better word) standards that TDI align with, therefore a SALT would apply. Why should we BSAC pay for insurance cover for courses that don?t meet our specifications? There?s nothing preventing an individual taking out additional cover, but why should the whole membership pay.

Now this is the heart of the matter - BSAC do not recognise TDI training as it stands, we take TDI qualifications and fiddle with them by adding additional restrictions. So does the TDI course meet our specifications or not? If it does not why do we allow people to use that qualification in BSAC? If it does meet our specs why are we fiddling with it?

At the moment we are in a horrible half way house of saying yes you can use your TDI ticket but you are not allowed to follow all the TDI recommendations. Can you imagine what a good lawyer would do with that if it ever got to court?

Pete

TerryH

26-09-2003, 11:56

Your scenario:
Firstly must, IMHO, make the assumption that BSAC have agreed particular ?technical? (for want of a better word) standards that TDI align with, therefore a SALT would apply. Why should we BSAC pay for insurance cover for courses that don?t meet our specifications? There?s nothing preventing an individual taking out additional cover, but why should the whole membership pay.

Edward. It's a scenario!
That means the gloves are off and you can do what you like.
That also includes going against current BSAC rules.

Awnser me this. Do BSAC think TDI are a respectable and
professional organisation? Yes? So why on earth dont they
accept there qualifications across the board?

Do we really need to vett each course, just to put the BSAC
stamp on it? Isnt the fact that these are pro (have lots of
money) organisations mean that we will always be playing
catchup?

I have no qualms about paying a few quid in premiums to let
non-BSAC standards (including SALT) guest divers, dive with our
club.

TerryH

Dave

26-09-2003, 12:21

Ric

:=So the moment I leave BSAC or even fail to renew my subscription on time, all my BSAC diving qualifications are worth diddly squat?????

Not true. Your BSAC Public Liability insurance ceases the day your membership expires; there is no period of grace. But your diver qualification(s) will still be recognised even years later.

My Advanced Diver card explicitly states

"This card is valid only whilst the holder is a current member of the BSAC"

It doesn't just say that there is no 3rd party insurance (woop). That says to me that BSAC count qualifications as not valid if the diver leaves. The fact that anywhere that you would want to go diving would accept them is irrelevent.

Dave

TerryH

26-09-2003, 12:43

:=Ric
:=
:=:=So the moment I leave BSAC or even fail to renew my subscription on time, all my BSAC diving qualifications are worth diddly squat?????
:=
:=Not true. Your BSAC Public Liability insurance ceases the day your membership expires; there is no period of grace. But your diver qualification(s) will still be recognised even years later.

My Advanced Diver card explicitly states

"This card is valid only whilst the holder is a current member of the BSAC"

It doesn't just say that there is no 3rd party insurance (woop). That says to me that BSAC count qualifications as not valid if the diver leaves. The fact that anywhere that you would want to go diving would accept them is irrelevent.

Dave

This post directed towards Edward.

Dont you think that it is precisely these sort of inaccuracies,
anomoiles, confused issues etc. that should be fully explained
in the BOH?

TerryH

ric morte

26-09-2003, 13:18

:=:=So the moment I leave BSAC or even fail to renew my subscription on time, all my BSAC diving qualifications are worth diddly squat?????
:=
:=Not true. Your BSAC Public Liability insurance ceases the day your membership expires; there is no period of grace. But your diver qualification(s) will still be recognised even years later.

My Advanced Diver card explicitly states

"This card is valid only whilst the holder is a current member of the BSAC"

To Dave, thanks for that. I hadn't looked at the small print on my card half hard enough.

OK, I'm going to split hairs here, but the devil is always in the detail... "This card is valid only... etc". Do I need to make a distinction between the *card* not being valid and my *qualification* not being valid? Does anyone know of any other places in the regs/BOH, etc, where it states that *qualifications* are valid ONLY for the period the diver is a (paid up) member of BSAC? I'd like to get this fact straightened out before adding anything else to this thread. Black and white definitive answers only please [I always live in hope... :^) ].

To Edward: re my original post. Yes, I understand the difference between these organisations. I very carefully used the term "certifying" agencies, because that's what they do, issue certificates/qualifications. I didn't want to divert this thread into the debate about the differences between training / assessing / club (membership) organisations.

Andy: I think you have raised some very important issues here. Well done. Apologies if you think my post is taking your thread in a direction different to the one you intended. Only that I really would like to know where I stand with respect to all my BSAC certs.

Ric

It doesn't just say that there is no 3rd party insurance (woop). That says to me that BSAC count qualifications as not valid if the diver leaves. The fact that anywhere that you would want to go diving would accept them is irrelevent.

Dave

Andy Nye

26-09-2003, 13:36

Hi Ric

"This card is valid only whilst the holder is a current member of the BSAC"

it says it all, i didn't go to grammer school or anything like that, but i can read and write. so if i see "This card is valid only whilst the holder is a current member of the BSAC" on my BSAC ADVANCED NITROX DIVER card , then i'm not a member of BSAC , so i am not a advanced nitrox diver.......... well, i am, coz i did the course , did the exam , did the dives,got the ticket..........how many shops have sold me nitrox for showing the card ? lots , how many have refused me , coz i couldn't prove i was a current member of BSAC ? None...... says it all really , don't it .

Andy: I think you have raised some very important issues here. Well done. Apologies if you think my post is taking your thread in a direction different to the one you intended. Only that I really would like to know where I stand with respect to all my BSAC certs.

No problems mate,glad to have shed some light and bring the creepie crawlies out the closet ,,, opp's cupboard.

Andy

:=It doesn't just say that there is no 3rd party insurance (woop). That says to me that BSAC count qualifications as not valid if the diver leaves. The fact that anywhere that you would want to go diving would accept them is irrelevent.
:=
:=Dave

john kendall

26-09-2003, 22:09

Your scenario:
Firstly must, IMHO, make the assumption that BSAC have agreed particular ?technical? (for want of a better word) standards that TDI align with, therefore a SALT would apply. Why should we BSAC pay for insurance cover for courses that don?t meet our specifications? There?s nothing preventing an individual taking out additional cover, but why should the whole membership pay.

But we already recognise TDI courses. Otherwise how might we dive to 70m on Trimix in the Branch? Unless BSAC have launched a Trimix course recently, we have to recognise the standard from other agencies. But then we say, "No hang on a minute, we don't think that these divers who have been trained, and assessed to use 100% O2 at PPO2 1.6 can be trusted to do it safely, let's limit their options"

Because that is what it all boils down to.

edward haynes

27-09-2003, 20:02

But we already recognise TDI courses. Otherwise how might we dive to 70m on Trimix in the Branch? Unless BSAC have launched a Trimix course recently, we have to recognise the standard from other agencies. But then we say, "No hang on a minute, we don't think that these divers who have been trained, and assessed to use 100% O2 at PPO2 1.6 can be trusted to do it safely, let's limit their options"

Because that is what it all boils down to.

If something goes wrong and one of your Trimix divers suffers injury or damage when diving outside BSAC guidelines on Branch dives then. The Dive Marshal and/or Branch Diving Officer COULD find the company that provides the BSAC Public Liability Insurance MAY not support them. It hasn?t been tested yet to my knowledge, what I do know is life-cover companies are now looking at ?get-outs? as a way of not paying out on mortgages.

Edward

TerryH

27-09-2003, 21:15

If something goes wrong and one of your Trimix divers suffers injury or damage when diving outside BSAC guidelines on Branch dives then. The Dive Marshal and/or Branch Diving Officer COULD find the company that provides the BSAC Public Liability Insurance MAY not support them. It hasn?t been tested yet to my knowledge, what I do know is life-cover companies are now looking at ?get-outs? as a way of not paying out on mortgages.

Edward

Edward, it almost feels like your replies are indicative of the
problem with BSAC HQ. You keep repeating that such dives are
outside BSAC guidelines and that Insurance would be
invalidated.

WE KNOW THAT!

The point here is that such guidelines are illogical and
devisive.

What we are trying to get across (seems without success), is
that BSAC needs to accept these courses in there entirity or
not at all. The peacemeal approach that we have at present has
the potential to lose members, who are in many cases more
experienced and knowledgable than those actually dictating
the guidelines.

What council et al fail to realise is the speed of progression.
We no longer see divers taking years to accomplish grades before
going into more technical realms. Our average committed club
member will now attain DL/ADI/Adv.Nx within 2-3 years of
joining and in total the club is well over 60% Nx.

I now have to make a decision as to whether we remove some of
the dives from the BSAC/Club realm as many have expressed
a wish to do accelerated deco. That means we need TDI, seperate
Insurance and a non-BSAC private boat.

So please tell me at what point the "hassle factor" and extra
Insurance cost say "Sod it lets go SAA"?

In fact with the ease of crossovers etc. and that fact that
many of us are already PADI trained, why not go SDI/TDI?

I dont think I'm the first TO on here to think this way and to
be honest the longer BSAC refuse to deal with the issue, the
more likely it is that we switch.

Snip from the SAA Website .....

"The divers within the dive team must all be qualified to dive
on the gas mix. The SAA is not at this time a TRIMIX training
agency. Recognised training agencies are; TDI, IANTD, and ANDI.
To Register with the SAA for diving on TRIMIX please send
photocopies of your certification to Head Office."

See how easy it is? They dont do it themselves, so as long as
you inform them of your grade, you can dive withn the
guidelines of your agency and still be insured by the SAA.

Easy wasnt it. So whats the problem BSAC?

TerryH

Nigel Hewitt

27-09-2003, 21:17

Andy Nye

27-09-2003, 22:02

See how easy it is? They dont do it themselves, so as long as
you inform them of your grade, you can dive withn the
guidelines of your agency and still be insured by the SAA.

Easy wasnt it. So whats the problem BSAC?

TerryH

So Terry, if this is the case of how easy it is , then why can't BSAC have the same sort of insurance....surely BSAC is bigger than the SAA ( At present ) so should get more of a discount.

Andy

Mike Halligan

27-09-2003, 23:10

If something goes wrong and one of your Trimix divers suffers injury or damage when diving outside BSAC guidelines on Branch dives then. The Dive Marshal and/or Branch Diving Officer COULD find the company that provides the BSAC Public Liability Insurance MAY not support them. It hasn?t been tested yet to my knowledge, what I do know is life-cover companies are now looking at ?get-outs? as a way of not paying out on mortgages.

Edward,

It strikes me that all anyone asks is that the BSAC gets itself REALISTIC cover for what many of our most valuable (for which read generous, supportive, patient and self-effacing) fellow members routinely do - in order that they need not seek the shelter of an accommodating agency elsewhere. Once they go, we will never see them back in more than penny numbers.

It matters not one iota what the current BSAC cover may be. There is a clear indication that it is insufficient for what is happening right now. The distinction applies to relatively few now, but an ever increasing minority no doubt. The pinch-point is that this minority happens to be the engine-room of the BSAC. If HQ / Council / NDC wish to be on the bridge of a very flash vessel with all manner of nav-aids but no engine, that is their option, and just that is looking ever more likely.

As I have posted elsewhere, "Wake up and smell the coffee, BSAC". None of us wishes to turn our back on the BSAC, but answers such as yours, however well intentioned, are driving us to consider it very seriously (I include myself yet I'm no more than EANx. All the same, I'm damn glad I used PADI to get it).

I would quote Kevin B..... Wilson, but I guess DILLIGAF will infuriate some robot somewhere (Not you, Keith). That really is how far you have now gone, Edward, by doing no more than reflect an unacceptable attitude being picked up on this forum and reflected back by so many.

In sadness,

Mike

edward haynes

27-09-2003, 23:10

Hi Terry

You forgot to include the last bit "... and all dives are within the SAA guidelines". That is also required to be covered by SAA Insurance.

Edward

Snip from the SAA Website .....

"The divers within the dive team must all be qualified to dive
on the gas mix. The SAA is not at this time a TRIMIX training
agency. Recognised training agencies are; TDI, IANTD, and ANDI.
To Register with the SAA for diving on TRIMIX please send
photocopies of your certification to Head Office."

See how easy it is? They dont do it themselves, so as long as
you inform them of your grade, you can dive withn the
guidelines of your agency and still be insured by the SAA.

Easy wasnt it. So whats the problem BSAC?

TerryH

TerryH

28-09-2003, 00:05

You forgot to include the last bit "... and all dives are within the SAA guidelines". That is also required to be covered by SAA Insurance.

Edward

Really would be nice if you took the time to do your homework
Edward.

SAA Guidelines.
1. All the divers are qualified to dive with the gas mix, and
are registered within the SAA to do so.
2. The gas is mixed by an appropriately qualified gas blender.
3. The maximum partial pressure of oxygen does not exceed 1.4
bar as a bottom gas, and 1.6 bar for decompression gas.
4. The maximum depth for the dive does not exceed 70msw, the
maximum EAD shall not exceed 50m
5. All divers in a dive team are appropriately qualified for
the dive undertaken, no mixed buddy pairs are permitted.

1. Qualified, but of course & Admin, nothing more.
2. Wouldnt have it any other way.
3. I work to 1.4 now, but even if I was TDI 1.4/1.6?
No hardship.
4. Fine & note the term EAD. They obvioulsy have grasped the
concept.
5. Of course.

Please Edward tell me how any of these "guidelines" are any
different to those offered by the appropriate agency?

TerryH

Vic

28-09-2003, 00:40

> what I do know is life-cover companies are now looking at
> ?get-outs? as a way of not paying out on mortgages.

Yes. This happened to me.

The insurance company weren't trying to tell me what I could or could not do - all they were concerned about was that I was doing things safely. They're not experts in what constitutes "safe", so they made a very simple proposition - they would define "safe" in the same way as the agencies from whom I held qualifications.

So it was that, if I only held TDI qualifications, I was fine; but by sticking to TDI recommendations, I was breaching BSAC recommendations. So by holding BSAC qualifications, I invalidated my life policies. Guess what? I left BSAC, because that allowed me to continue diving in a safe manner without losing my insurance cover.

BSAC has now rescinded the dangerous advice it was giving at the time, so I rejoined. But others are now about to hit a similar situation - their safe diving practices are contrary to BSAC Safe Diving Practices. The point here - and I think you've missed this - is that a whole load of people think BSAC is very, very wrong in this, and is issuing poor advice in a number of areas. And by so doing, it not only increases the health risks to its members, it also increases the risks of insurance policies not paying out. Yet all this could be corrected by BSAC not dibbling with things it doesn't appear to understand.

The solution to all these problems seems clear to me - we either recognise a particular qualification, or we don't. If we do, we accept it without prejudice. This will create a few minor issues when it comes to marshalling a branch dive, but that situation is no different from what we already have, and will be solved in exactly the same way.

One sentence from BSAC will make all these problems go away, but we seem determined to spend rather more time and effort trying to pretend there's nothing wrong. That's not exactly a good use of resources in my book...

Vic.

edward haynes

28-09-2003, 09:20

Terry

This is going off the point I'm attempting to make.

Its not the individual diver's insurance that's at risk (they can always takeout top-up insurance) it's the Dive Marshal and Diving Officer or their delegated representatives who are at risk.

** See Safe diving Practices "The BSAC recommends that mixed gas diving should be to a maximum depth of 70 metres and that all participating divers should hold a suitable qualification from one of the recognized training agencies and register this qualification with the BSAC."

Keith has mentioned on another tread that it isn't BSAC, but the insurance companies who are imposing these conditions if we want to be insured.

Remember the cost of BSAC Public Liability Insurance has gone from just ?100k to around ?600k in just a few years.

Edward

PS Would it be more acceptable for BSAC to become a qualifying agency only and let individuals fend for themselves: No Branch backup, Insurance or Coaching Scheme. Sounds like another organisation already out there!

edward haynes

28-09-2003, 09:30

:=If something goes wrong and one of your Trimix divers suffers injury or damage when diving outside BSAC guidelines on Branch dives then. The Dive Marshal and/or Branch Diving Officer COULD find the company that provides the BSAC Public Liability Insurance MAY not support them.

If I'm diving within my *other agency* rules surely they are not liable. My dive was 'safe' as I was within my training. They were not negligent if they verified that.

On a Branch dive, your dive profile requires approval from the Dive Marshal before you go in, so it could be argued they where negligent.

The third party stuff only covers them if they are negligent, well it doesn't cover them it pays the poor sap who suffered at their hands, so we reduce the risk of a payout by recognising other qualifications.

From SDP: ". . . all participating divers should hold a suitable qualification from one of the recognized training agencies and register this qualification with the BSAC".

Edward

edward haynes

28-09-2003, 09:51

All

I do sympathise with your frustrations. There are (IMHO) two issues Council do consider:

1. Are qualifications obtained through another training organisation safe for individuals to use?

2. Are diving practices learned outside the BSAC safe to be used within the Branch environment?

To answer the first question is (again IMHO) just a simple question of assessing the lesson content and evaluation of the risks.

The second one is much more difficult. This involves confirmtion that the average (let me know when one is found) Branch can safely support individuals using these new skills.

This is where Council are educating the insurance companies to get the cover expanded, but not at any cost. The effect is BSAC appears to lag behind other organisations, which are usually located outside the UK and don't have Branches.

Just my personal opinion.

Edward

TerryH

28-09-2003, 11:21

This is where Council are educating the insurance companies to get the cover expanded, but not at any cost. The effect is BSAC appears to lag behind other organisations, which are usually located outside the UK and don't have Branches.

Absolute crock.

The SAA are located in the UK. Although not as big as BSAC they
have enough branches to have a centralised network.

The SAA do not teach Trimix or SCR/CCR yet they fully endorse
(and insure) those that do.

So tell me how this smaller outfit has managed to gain insurance
when the mighty BSAC has failed?

TerryH

TerryH

28-09-2003, 11:37

Its not the individual diver's insurance that's at risk (they can always takeout top-up insurance) it's the Dive Marshal and Diving Officer or their delegated representatives who are at risk.

Yes you are right the DO/DM IS being put at risk by having to
(Actual senior BSAC HQ advice) "fudge" the issue.
So who put them in this position?

** See Safe diving Practices "The BSAC recommends that mixed gas diving should be to a maximum depth of 70 metres and that all participating divers should hold a suitable qualification from one of the recognized training agencies and register this qualification with the BSAC."

Yep nothing wrong with that, but what my agency says is 100%,
BSAC say 80%, so they are putting restrictions on what I have
been trained to do. That's NOT accepting the agency and it's
standards, but applying BSAC's own.

Keith has mentioned on another tread that it isn't BSAC, but the insurance companies who are imposing these conditions if we want to be insured.

Rubbish. All comes down to negotiation with the underwriters.
Tell me how I can manage to get FULL insurance as an
individual, but when the governing body tries it (with all that
financial clout) seems they get restrictions.

Remember the cost of BSAC Public Liability Insurance has gone from just ?100k to around ?600k in just a few years.

As has most insurance.

PS Would it be more acceptable for BSAC to become a qualifying agency only and let individuals fend for themselves: No Branch backup, Insurance or Coaching Scheme. Sounds like another organisation already out there!

Branch back up? When? I have never seen our coach.
Insurance? I get better cover as part of my equipment and
annual travel insurance.
In fact I'm covered third party 3 times!
Coaching scheme. We send our guys to Andark and go pro, as the
scheme is never in tune with our needs.

Hmm maybe your right Edward. We dont need BSAC at all do we!

TerryH

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

28-09-2003, 15:46

:=Keith has mentioned on another tread that it isn't BSAC, but the insurance companies who are imposing these conditions if we want to be insured.

Rubbish. All comes down to negotiation with the underwriters.
Tell me how I can manage to get FULL insurance as an
individual, but when the governing body tries it (with all that
financial clout) seems they get restrictions.

You are a known individual with a known history and are a known risk. The BSAC blanket third party covers all of our members. There is a world of difference between insuring an individual known risk and a group policy. The only rubbish being spouted here is your knowledge of corporate insurance.

:=PS Would it be more acceptable for BSAC to become a qualifying agency only and let individuals fend for themselves: No Branch backup, Insurance or Coaching Scheme. Sounds like another organisation already out there!

Branch back up? When? I have never seen our coach.

When did you last ASK to see your coach?

Insurance? I get better cover as part of my equipment and
annual travel insurance.

I suspect that you do, at a vastly greater cost than the insurance element of the BSAC membership fee.

Coaching scheme. We send our guys to Andark and go pro, as the
scheme is never in tune with our needs.

Well, as you never see your coach how do you know? You have the OPTION to go pro (as you put it), don?t deride the people who choose not to use that option.

People are getting tired of your constant negative whinges Terry. May I suggest that you take a less adversarial approach if you wish people to respond to you.

Keith L

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

28-09-2003, 15:59

:=This is where Council are educating the insurance companies to get the cover expanded, but not at any cost. The effect is BSAC appears to lag behind other organisations, which are usually located outside the UK and don't have Branches.
:=

Absolute crock.

The SAA are located in the UK. Although not as big as BSAC they
have enough branches to have a centralised network.

The SAA do not teach Trimix or SCR/CCR yet they fully endorse
(and insure) those that do.

So tell me how this smaller outfit has managed to gain insurance
when the mighty BSAC has failed?

TerryH

You are about to go too far with your ill-informed rants and whinges Terry. Treat this as a warning. You will now moderate your tone.

You are not comparing like with like. The SAA have differing requirements such as obtaining permission for the dive plan from the DO for ALL diving, also they do not have the additional problem of negotiating worldwide insurance for non-UK branches. Insurance is a very complex area involving a whole host of information, history and claims potential. At the corporate level it is individually underwritten to specific circumstances. Simplistic comparisons such as those you are making bear no relationship whatsoever to real life.

Keith L

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

28-09-2003, 16:51

Hi All

We seem to be getting a little tied up with the insurance issue here, that is not the point of the exercise! What follows is my current understanding of the situation. I am not an insurance expert, please don?t take what I have said as gospel, I have asked our insurance specialist on Council to review this thread and make sure that we?re all on the right track.

As Edward has quite rightly stated there are potential liability and insurance issues when diving outside of the BSAC SDP recommendations. This does not necessarily mean that ?your insurance is invalidated? as some like to claim, but you do enter a grey area where case precedent comes into play and without that precedent NOBODY can give you a straight answer, even precedent evolves and changes with new cases.

It depends entirely on individual circumstances that would only come to light in the case of a claim being made, what would be asked is did any deviation from the SDP?s have a bearing on the incident? If it did then there is the potential for that to impact on any claim and liability. Let me give you an example ? breaking the law by not wearing your seatbelt does not invalidate your car insurance, but any claim that you make against a third party for injuries suffered may be affected by your actions.

Modern ?anybodies fault but mine? claim culture means that people and their relatives look around for somebody to sue, that somebody may end up being a buddy, a dive marshal, a club officer or even the BSAC itself (or, in some cases, ALL of them!). If diving was being undertaken within the BSAC SDP?s then the BSAC, our lawyers and our insurers will defend members against such claims, outside of the SDP?s then it becomes more difficult.

On the subject of what drives what ? are we being driven by insurance or by BSAC policy? Here again the answer is not clear cut, in practice there is the additional external influence of modern society and all three elements come into play before an agreement is reached. In the case of only instructors instructing this has largely come about from external influences and the expectation of people (and the courts) that they are taught by properly trained and qualified instructors. In most sports nowadays it is only instructors who can teach, insurers are no longer prepared to carry the risks of unknown and unqualified teaching.

In the case of recreational limits, SDP?s and the like then I believe that it is us (the BSAC) who are the main driving influence in gaining insurance. Our experts (the NDC) advise as to recommended procedures and this is negotiated with the underwriters. The issue being highlighted of technical diving limits is one of policy that should be taken up with the NDC, they will be able to advise as to whether there would be any likely insurance issues.

So people should be aware of the potential insurance issues if diving is being undertaken outside of the SDP recommendations. This is no different to any other insurance, step outside the terms of the policy and you enter a grey area.

If you feel that the SDP recommendations are wrong then that is a matter that should be taken up with the NDC and not with the insurers. If the NDC?s decision is based on insurance considerations and issues then that fact should be communicated from the NDC.

So can we =PLEASE= stop getting hung up on this insurance issue.

Regards

Keith L

Vic

28-09-2003, 17:39

> If you feel that the SDP recommendations are wrong then that
> is a matter that should be taken up with the NDC and not with
> the insurers.

That's exactly what's being said here - a number of people have no confidence in those SDPs when they deviate from accepted best practice. This deviation may not even be deliberate - as we've seen before - but nonetheless it becomes effectively binding.

The insurance issue comes along on two fronts :-

- it is one of the key "reasons for membership" we keep hearing about
- policies other than BSAC's 3rd party insurance may be affected by these SDPs

The result of this is that incorrect SDPs are likely to drive people away. This has already happened on at least one occasion. Yet changing those SDPs - even in the light of clear evidence - is extraordinarily difficult; the appearance is that the organisation would rather save face than correct such mistakes. I *really* hope this is just the appearance...

So let's get some dialogue going. We've been told that current SDPs are the only thing we can insure - to be blunt, I just don't believe that. We've been told that BSAC has all the answers - strange that it so often disagrees with the agencies who are the technical authorities that BSAC tell us it is not! In the light of such unclear veracity, why don't we start talking about how we can enable diving, rather than proscribe it?

Vic.

Vic.

TerryH

28-09-2003, 18:15

Keith. While you are correct that I dont know enough about
corporate insurance. I do know that underwriters will insure
anything and anybody as long as the premium is right.

All we are talking here is not that it a can/cant be done, but
a matter of negotiation. I dont need to be a corporate
insurance agent to know that.

:=Branch back up? When? I have never seen our coach.

When did you last ASK to see your coach?

It all depends if you see the coach as the emergency services.
Flying in when there is a problem, or somebody who should be
visiting each club on a regular basis to ensure such matters
dont get that far. Prevention IS better than cure.

:=Insurance? I get better cover as part of my equipment and
:=annual travel insurance.

I suspect that you do, at a vastly greater cost than the insurance element of the BSAC membership fee.

Possibly true, but if it doesnt cover me then I need extra
Insurance and it gets expensive.

:=Coaching scheme. We send our guys to Andark and go pro, as the
:=scheme is never in tune with our needs.

Well, as you never see your coach how do you know? You have the OPTION to go pro (as you put it), don?t deride the people who choose not to use that option.

I dont.

People are getting tired of your constant negative whinges Terry. May I suggest that you take a less adversarial approach if you wish people to respond to you.

Who are the "people" Keith?

May I remind you that this is my club and I put an awful lot of
time into it. I am both TO & EO. Book and run over 30 hardboat
trips each year along with running two foreign holidays. One of
which I spend my entire time teaching.

On average I estimate I spend at least 2 days a week on BSAC
buisness. This week alone I have spent 4 days teaching, sorting
out kit and attending freshers fair. Next week we have the
start of over 100 try-dives culminating in the signing of 36
new BSAC members.

So Keith. Do you think I have earned the right to have a winge!

TerryH

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

28-09-2003, 18:43

I do know that underwriters will insure
anything and anybody as long as the premium is right.
All we are talking here is not that it a can/cant be done, but
a matter of negotiation. I dont need to be a corporate
insurance agent to know that.

Once again you are wrong Terry. Insurers will only insure probability, not certainty. Try getting flood insurance for your house in a flood plain. Also there is the issue of the ?right? premium. In the case of the BSAC this is a balance because ALL of our members have to pay for it and carry the risk. OK, so everything has a price ? but as Council we have to match that price against the benefits to the majority.

:=:=Branch back up? When? I have never seen our coach.
:=When did you last ASK to see your coach?

It all depends if you see the coach as the emergency services.
Flying in when there is a problem, or somebody who should be
visiting each club on a regular basis to ensure such matters
dont get that far. Prevention IS better than cure.

I have alluded to this subject in another post in another thread. So you haven?t seen your coach, but then you haven?t asked! Try asking first ? THEN complain if you don?t see them.

:=People are getting tired of your constant negative whinges Terry. May I suggest that you take a less adversarial approach if you wish people to respond to you.

Who are the "people" Keith?

May I remind you that this is my club and I put an awful lot of
time into it? Do you think I have earned the right to have a winge!

Me for one. I am getting fed up with having to correct the gross inaccuracies and assumptions that you keep stating as ?fact?. There are others as my inbox keeps telling me.

It is more a matter of presentation than of content. I don?t give a damn who you are and how much you put into the club - NOTHING gives you the right to insult people and deride their actions and responses in the way that you have been doing on these forums. You will now tone it down. Make comments, question people, complain, give opinions by all means. But from now on you will be doing it in a much more civilised manner than of late. Everybody else seems to be able to manage to do that, you are about to start. I hope that I make myself perfectly clear.

Keith Lawrence
Forum Moderator

Andy Nye

28-09-2003, 18:55

Insurers will only insure probability, not certainty. Try getting flood insurance for your house in a flood plain. Also there is the issue of the ?right? premium. In the case of the BSAC this is a balance because ALL of our members have to pay for it and carry the risk. OK, so everything has a price ? but as Council we have to match that price against the benefits to the majority.

Very easy, i pay ? 96 a year for house insurance, ? 67 for contents insurance, ( which covers up to ? 30 K dive kit )

I live in a house just valued at ? 135,000 in Deal in Kent , it's rated at 91 % risk of flooding due to the fact i live 430 mts from the sea and my house is stated as being 2 foot under sea level

And thats with the local branch of the HALIFAX, if i shop around i MAY get it slightly cheaper, but whats the point , it's cheap anyway.

Never had a claim in 5 years ...

Andy

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

28-09-2003, 18:56

Thanks for that Vic, a good summing up.

why don't we start talking about how we can enable diving, rather than proscribe it?

I couldn?t agree more, that is exactly what we should be doing IMHO. I note that some divers are trying to get these issues raised formally at DOC this year, I would encourage interested parties to join in with their initiative as well as discussing matters on here. These issues do need sorting out, we?re a members club, let?s sort them out together.

Regards

Keith L

Andy Nye

28-09-2003, 18:59

Kieth,

Can you tell us why the BSAC insurance has increased by 1/2 million quid in a year ?

100 k to 600 k. Now i'm now good at % rates , but as far as i can see it thats a increase of 500%,,,,,, No other insurances i have has raised this much ?

Not picking faults or pointing fingers , just intrested ...

Andy

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

28-09-2003, 19:08

Can you tell us why the BSAC insurance has increased by 1/2 million quid in a year ?

??? I have NO IDEA where you've plucked that figure from Andy, it isn't from any planet that I inhabit :-)

100 k to 600 k. Now i'm now good at % rates , but as far as i can see it thats a increase of 500%,,,,,, No other insurances i have has raised this much ?

We managed to peg the increase this year by reducing the personal liability cover and restricting USA claims. There has been a huge rise, it's at least doubled, since 2000 IIRC (I'd have to dig out the figures). This is in line with other types of liability insurance, I am sure that many of you will have seen the business press about firms being forced out of business by huge hikes in public liability insurance. What has happened is a dramitic reduction in the underwriters willing to take on liability insurance, they are declining business and naming their own prices.

What has happened to the BSAC insurance is very much in line with the industry and other sporting and club based activities. There is nothing strange about it, everybody has been sufferring the same.

Keith L

Andy Nye

28-09-2003, 19:11

Just wondered by the amount you enjoy your teaching and diving , that i was wondering why your branch stays with BSAC and not turned to the SAA.

I understand all the hard work that you put in as i have been there aswell, only for 2 years mind you.

Would you like to stand for the next council ?

Andy

TerryH

28-09-2003, 19:31

Just wondered by the amount you enjoy your teaching and diving , that i was wondering why your branch stays with BSAC and not turned to the SAA.

We will be talking to them at the NEC.

I understand all the hard work that you put in as i have been there aswell, only for 2 years mind you.

Would you like to stand for the next council ?

I'm going to DOC and have been asked by some others to stand.
I'm seriously considering it, but not sure of the effect on my
club. I can only do one job. Besides I have to get somebody to
vote for me.

TerryH

Chris Tibble

28-09-2003, 20:11

Never had a claim in 5 years ...

Andy

And there's the rub. Move to Bewdley on the River Severn. In fact buy my mate's house by the river that has been flooded twice in the last 5 years. Wait two years when the Government's agreement with the insurance companies runs out and then try to get insurance.

The fact that you live below sea level is completely immaterial. The fact that your risk of flooding is high doesn't really matter - how many times you've been flooded matters. You could have a house on the Dead Sea, and pay next to nothing, since despite the fact that it's 400m below sea level, the Dead Sea is receding at 1m per year, so flooding is highly unlikely.

Chris

Chris

TerryH

28-09-2003, 20:19

It is more a matter of presentation than of content. I don?t give a damn who you are and how much you put into the club - NOTHING gives you the right to insult people and deride their actions and responses in the way that you have been doing on these forums. You will now tone it down. Make comments, question people, complain, give opinions by all means. But from now on you will be doing it in a much more civilised manner than of late. Everybody else seems to be able to manage to do that, you are about to start. I hope that I make myself perfectly clear.

Keith Lawrence
Forum Moderator

I am sorry you feel that way Keith and I am genuinely sorry if
anybody feels I have gone too far, but I see no difference in
the manner of my posts, than in any of a dozen other members
on here.

I will endeavor to "tone it down", but reserve the right to my
opinion.

I would suggest a truce where I will think before I post and
you stop diriding my opinions (publicly) as being "ill-thought
out and inacurate rants".

If you wish to discuss this further, maybe we should meet face
to face at the NEC?

TerryH

Andy Nye

28-09-2003, 20:30

:=Can you tell us why the BSAC insurance has increased by 1/2 million quid in a year ?

??? I have NO IDEA where you've plucked that figure from Andy, it isn't from any planet that I inhabit :-)

**** One this site somewhere, think it was this thread. made by Edward , i think ****

:=100 k to 600 k. Now i'm now good at % rates , but as far as i can see it thats a increase of 500%,,,,,, No other insurances i have has raised this much ?

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

28-09-2003, 21:04

I will endeavor to "tone it down", but reserve the right to my
opinion.

Thank you Terry, that is all that is asked of anybody on this forum. It is not what is said, it is the manner in which it is said. I will back you all the way in your right to have and to express an opinion, but it will be done in a polite and civilised manner.

I would suggest a truce where I will think before I post and
you stop diriding my opinions (publicly) as being "ill-thought
out and inacurate rants".

Agreed. You stop posting them and I will have nothing to respond to. I do however reserve the right to defend the BSAC against any of the inaccurate and misleading that are often posted on various forums.

If you wish to discuss this further, maybe we should meet face
to face at the NEC?

Would be delighted to, I'm more than happy to talk to any member. I'm not sure which day I'll be going, probably the Saturday, I'll post something on here when I know.

Thanks Terry, matter closed as far as I'm concerned.

Regards

Keith L

TerryH

28-09-2003, 22:30

:=:=Can you tell us why the BSAC insurance has increased by 1/2 million quid in a year ?
:=
:=??? I have NO IDEA where you've plucked that figure from Andy, it isn't from any planet that I inhabit :-)

<a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/1498.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/1498.html</a>

TerryH

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

28-09-2003, 23:53

:=:=:=Can you tell us why the BSAC insurance has increased by 1/2 million quid in a year ?
:=:=
:=:=??? I have NO IDEA where you've plucked that figure from Andy, it isn't from any planet that I inhabit :-)
:=

http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/1498.html

That's forums for you - the quote "just ?100k to around ?600k in just a few years" suddenly becomes and increase of ?600K in a year, all in the space of one post. John got the figure wrong as well, it's actually nearer 2/3 of that. But it's still one hell of a lot of money and a lot more than we were paying in 2000.

The answer that I gave was in fact correct, we have seen a significant rise in premiums in the past few years in line with the liability insurance market in general, but it's (thankfully!) nothing like the ?100K to ?600K in a year that Andy has picked up from somewhere.

No problem, that's the internet for you... :-)

Keith L

edward haynes

29-09-2003, 08:37

Andy

House insurance: I think you're paying to much.

House value ?140k, build ins ?35, cont ins ?13.

Dive kit is covered under specified items (I only need disclose individual items over ?1500).

Edward

Very easy, i pay ? 96 a year for house insurance, ? 67 for contents insurance, ( which covers up to ? 30 K dive kit )

I live in a house just valued at ? 135,000 in Deal in Kent , it's rated at 91 % risk of flooding due to the fact i live 430 mts from the sea and my house is stated as being 2 foot under sea level

And thats with the local branch of the HALIFAX, if i shop around i MAY get it slightly cheaper, but whats the point , it's cheap anyway.

Never had a claim in 5 years ...

Andy

edward haynes

29-09-2003, 09:14

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

29-09-2003, 10:28

I have been over my notes again.

Insurance:
2000 = ?187,000 BSAC Annual Accounts
2001 = ?300,000 BSAC Annual Accounts
2002 = ?403,951 BSAC Annual Accounts
2003 = ?600,000 My notes from the last AGM (I'm not sure the Hon Tre said this is what was asked for, not what was paid). We will have to wait until Feb 04 to see the true figure.

Ah right!! [nb to self : must pay more attention at the AGM :-)]
The accounts figure is (I believe) our TOTAL insurance bill, that includes all of our TP, PL, and EL insurance. Mike's ?600K figure was probably a guestimate for the likely 2003 figure (renewals fall due at different times during the financial year). But by far the largest element, over ?400K if you really want to know (including IPT and a finance charge), is our members TPL insurance.

Either way the 40,000 (50,000) or so of us have had to find an extra ?5.40 (?4.30) ish each to fund the 2002 premium over the 2000 one.

Spot on, that is what I was alluding to. The only reason we were able to hold subs level this year is that the rise in members TPL leveled out, largely due to us modifying the cover. All of our recent subs rises have gone straight to the insurance companies, but it's STILL cheaper than individuals would pay on the open market. What we pay now is one hell of a rise since 2000, but it hasn't all been in one year and it has been in line with the general rises in all types of liability insurance.

Can we conclude the insurance debate on that note?

Keith L