Twin Independent set-up [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

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paulg

31-01-2011, 15:49

Hi,

Thinking of moving from a single cylinder set up to twin independent cylinders. However I an currently unsure as to how BSAC might recommend the regulators are set up so can be breathed by diver or buddy as AS? Would long hose(s) be needed? Any ideas welcome!

Thanks, Paul

Paul S

31-01-2011, 17:51

paulg

31-01-2011, 21:24

I have it so there's no difference between the cylinders. Both are on a long hose. Ideally my buddy would take the one I'm not using, but if they do go for the one in my mouth I can switch.

The hoses are 1.5m on one side and 2m on the other. Ok, that's a difference, but only because that's what I had when I set it up. Then you just need to work out a way to stow the hose when you're diving normally.

Hi Paul,

Thanks for that, very helpful! Like the idea of long hoses.

How do you overcome the problem of the octo being upside down for you to breath if it's coming from your left?

Paul

Woz

31-01-2011, 21:38

Hi Paul,

Thanks for that, very helpful! Like the idea of long hoses.

How do you overcome the problem of the octo being upside down for you to breath if it's coming from your left?

PaulHanded regs, side exhaust regs or both regs coming over the right shoulder.

bythesea

31-01-2011, 21:39

The apeks XTX range can be changed form left to right hand.

I often wonder what people have against isolation manifolds?

Richard Whitcombe

31-01-2011, 22:45

I often wonder what people have against isolation manifolds?

Fear of valve drills.

People are too scared of being unable to do a valve drill they take the easy option as a cop-out.
Its a "BSAC" thing. Independents are very rare outside a BSAC environment!

neil_richardson

31-01-2011, 23:58

Richard i think you'll find that the Manifolded setup is VERY common in areas with a STRONG DIR basis,,,, or those with a US training agency bias...

But VERY uncommon, everywhere else in the world...

its also loosing favour quite quickly down here in Australia for a number of reasons... but thats another story.

As for hose routing, up to you..

When i dive indi's, i either:

1. left handed reg on 1.2m and right handed reg on 2m,
2. both right handed
3. Sidemount - which opens up a whole new can of worms

N

Richard Whitcombe

01-02-2011, 00:05

neil_richardson

01-02-2011, 00:59

Manifold and DIR basis!?

You pick any tech diver and half of them wouldnt even have heard of independents yet alone having seen one.

Ive dived in a fair number of places around the world and so far the only time ive ever seen someone with independent twins it turned out the guy was BSAC.

(im not counting sidemount in this as thats a different niche).

Same same,, dived in just over 60 odd countries these days..... but im not banging my chest about that :(

As for "You pick any tech diver and half of them wouldnt even have heard of independents yet alone having seen one." you should rephrase this as "wannabe tech divers'...

You are right, in the "wannabe" tech divers, most of them dont even know how to dive a manifolded setup, they've just been shown and sold the kit, by some dive shop.. Plus a spool, of course.... goes without saying they get a spool... ohh and did i forget the new harness, wing, fins, backplate etc to accompany such a setup??

The number of people who buy manfolded twin sets, and then break them down into twin indi's down here, is growing... MASSIVELY growing.. I put this down to the fact that people are getting f'cked off with shops selling people gear they really dont need for a 20-30m dive!!!

As for being taught indi's, i must admit i do find it really funny that the only places that will actually teach people how to use them, are CMAS or BSAC areas.. Dont know what its like where you are Richard? but here, its become a VERY common occurance, for people to see other people dive indi's, like the setup, speak to a dive shop about them, the dive shops know nothing about them because, well, its five less pieces of equipment to sell,, so off course they do not know anything about them (when i work commercially, i know nothing about Indi's as well...) and then they chat to someone else who dives Indi's, that person asks if they know anyone who can teach them how to dive indi's, and 9 times out of 10, its a non commercially aligned instructor... which as it happens, can be me, with me wearing my non commercial hat on.... and thus, under my BSAC banner, rather then my "commercial" banner.

bythesea

01-02-2011, 05:33

You are right, in the "wannabe" tech divers, most of them dont even know how to dive a manifolded setup, they've just been shown and sold the kit, by some dive shop.. Plus a spool, of course.... goes without saying they get a spool... ohh and did i forget the new harness, wing, fins, backplate etc to accompany such a setup??

Interesting, you just described my kit, and the kit of a lot of people I know... your description of the people themselves is a little off the mark though.

You forgot to insult our front loading drysuits....

BTW, spools rock...;)

EDIT... you forgot the Uwatec bottom timer...

Dave Woodward

01-02-2011, 06:09

I think the reason you see manifolded twins a lot is that nowadays the general progression is, OW, AOW, Adv Nitrox, Deco etc. bang bang, where the courses (US centric) dicate manifolded twinset, and the internet reinforces that impression as the only way to do it.

In the UK, as was, it was more the case that as you got through Sports Diver, and wanted to head towards more technical stuff, you kind of did the 12l, then 12+3, 15, 15+3, then tried indie 10s, indie 12s, building it up within the club borrowing kit and learning from peers and mates, and often ending up with a manifolded twin set in the end.

I think it was around 1999 when I actually got my first manifolded twinset, and even then it didn't have an isolator. I found it was a pain having all my money in a manifolded set and went back to indies which I could use for almost all my diving. Actually, while not much different cost wise, I think they are easier to get hold of nowadays with almost every dive shop having a techy corner.

In the more modern progression, you miss this out by doing it all on courses that go straight to manifolded twinsets. How many people are diving a manifolded twinset after 40 or 50 dives? So there is a gap, and eventually we reach the point where now we have a lot of instructors who are teaching twin set diving, who have never gone through using indies, becaus etheir instructor told them it was dangerous and outdated, and think the only way to dive is that dicated on the courses they did to get where they are.

(I'm not anti-manifold, I do have a shiney set of ali 80's manifolded together and they are fine enough to go diving with,if and when needed)

Dave

neil_richardson

01-02-2011, 06:16

Interesting, you just described my kit, and the kit of a lot of people I know... your description of the people themselves is a little off the mark though.

You forgot to insult our front loading drysuits....

BTW, spools rock...;)

EDIT... you forgot the Uwatec bottom timer...

interesting comment "by the sea", as its the same setup (including the uwatec bottom timer) i use when im teaching commercially.....

in fact, i'd classify it as my "commercial techy training setup".. and that includes the front entry, tri-lam drysuit...

so really, not sure where your comment comes from re: description of the people!?!? :confused: :confused:

Just stating that from a shops perspective, its better to train and sell people manifolded twin sets, a new wing, backplate, trilam drysuit (with undersuit off course), plus spools, plus new fins, plus new mask, plus ...... than it is to turn around to people and say "you know what, you can actually strap a second cylinder to that BCD of your's and you'll have twin independents, which you break down and use on shore dives, and on single tank dives, without the need for having to purchase a whole new lot of gear!?!?!"

Hence why i teach commercially in this setup :p

My open water setup of choice, for fun dives (less than 40m) being ironically sidemounted independents.... :eek:

HelmGuy

01-02-2011, 10:51

PeteM

01-02-2011, 10:59

I've recently moved to twins and have a set of 7's and a set of 12's. As much as I try so far I'm unable to reach the valves on the 7's (haven't played much with the 12's yet) so I'm forced to dive them indi for now even though I have an isolation manifold. I'm hoping I'll be able to do it one day :-(

Have you had someone that knows what they are doing show you how to do it?

I've shown people in the past who are "physical incapable of doing a shut down"** that have been doing them comfortably five minutes later. Basically if you can touch the back of your head and neck you can do a shut down.

** Yes there are people who through injury genuinely cannot do a shut down (Hello Nigel!) but they are in the minority, for those I suggest twinverts

HelmGuy

01-02-2011, 14:38

Not that's something I haven't had yet - someone knowledgeable show me how. I've heard people say exactly what you just did so I'm still hoping I'll get to be able to do it at some stage. I have been tempted to try inverting but hoping I won't need to.

I'm attending the free GUE intro day at Vobster in April so maybe those guys can help me sort it out.

bythesea

01-02-2011, 16:46

There is a very good write up on shut downs here

http://teamfoxturd.blogspot.com/2006/11/art-of-shutdowns.html

Probably by one of if not the instructor you will be at vobster with

HelmGuy

01-02-2011, 19:07

There is a very good write up on shut downs here

http://teamfoxturd.blogspot.com/2006/11/art-of-shutdowns.html

Probably by one of if not the instructor you will be at vobster with

Thanks, will have a good read.

Woz

02-02-2011, 14:21

Fear of valve drills.

People are too scared of being unable to do a valve drill they take the easy option as a cop-out.
Its a "BSAC" thing. Independents are very rare outside a BSAC environment!
Indies are a really flexible system when you have a pile of club cylinders knocking about.

garethwoodruff

02-02-2011, 15:41

Indies are a really flexible system when you have a pile of club cylinders knocking about.

A viable system, relatively cheap and effective.

I started off on a twinset with indies.

Nick of Bristol

03-02-2011, 20:05

Hi Paul,

BSAC have some kit requirements described in the Sports Mixed Gas course notes.

They like to see a long hose 1.5-2.0m,
The long hose is normally secured to the cylinder by bungees / rubber loops.

You can use twinning bands from say red hat or buddy.

I am told that a lot of 'technical divers' types have their primary stuff on the right-hand-side. As such, they would have their long hose on the RHS (primary donation). If you might be diving with these guys, (all things being equal) you might consider doing the same.

Good luck

Nick

Richard Whitcombe

04-02-2011, 02:03

As for "You pick any tech diver and half of them wouldnt even have heard of independents yet alone having seen one." you should rephrase this as "wannabe tech divers'...

Really? So these people advanced trimix instructors or other qualified people doing 100m+ open circuit dives are wannabe tech divers? Id hate to meet a real one. Would put astronauts to shame....

You are right, in the "wannabe" tech divers, most of them dont even know how to dive a manifolded setup, they've just been shown and sold the kit, by some dive shop.. Plus a spool, of course.... goes without saying they get a spool... ohh and did i forget the new harness, wing, fins, backplate etc to accompany such a setup??

Or in the caes of indies, some bloke with a beard in a club who used one 20 years ago tells everyone else to use it "for when its really deep, a 15 and pony wont do. Make sure its air though" and the unsuspecting interested but new diver copies him.

The number of people who buy manfolded twin sets, and then break them down into twin indi's down here, is growing... MASSIVELY growing.. I put this down to the fact that people are getting f'cked off with shops selling people gear they really dont need for a 20-30m dive!!!

If you dont need a manifold you dont need indies either.

As for being taught indi's, i must admit i do find it really funny that the only places that will actually teach people how to use them, are CMAS or BSAC areas..

BSAC don't teach it. Its fat blokes with sandals that "mentor". BSAC (still) has no twinset course despite the fact it was promised over 2 years ago.

Dont know what its like where you are Richard? but here, its become a VERY common occurance, for people to see other people dive indi's, like the setup, speak to a dive shop about them,

In the UK the only time i see an independent twins diver he's BSAC. Ive never seen one out of the UK anywhere.

Indies are for people scared of valve drills.

neil_richardson

04-02-2011, 04:56

Mate,

its friday, im in a ****ed off mood,, you really didnt want to submit this reply to me today, you really did not.... for f'cks sake.... i normally agree and accept what you say about a lot of things, but your comments today are just,, well,,, c'rap... so by reply...

Really? So these people advanced trimix instructors or other qualified people doing 100m+ open circuit dives are wannabe tech divers? Id hate to meet a real one. Would put astronauts to shame....

what the f'ck are you talking about?? this is gibberish... i read this as you saying "there are people who are serious divers, who regularly dive to 100m+ who have never heard of twin indipendents"?!?!WTF??? make sense....

Or in the caes of indies, some bloke with a beard in a club who used one 20 years ago tells everyone else to use it "for when its really deep, a 15 and pony wont do. Make sure its air though" and the unsuspecting interested but new diver copies him.

Again, WTF?? you're really making absolutly no sense at the moment... what EXACTLY are you trying to say?

If you dont need a manifold you dont need indies either.

Again,,, what the hell are you trying to say here?? you're speaking absolute gobbledegook..... theres a BIG difference between need and want and convenience, and to be brutally honest, i have absolutly no idea what you are trying to say here, and thus have no idea how to answer this,....

BSAC don't teach it. Its fat blokes with sandals that "mentor". BSAC (still) has no twinset course despite the fact it was promised over 2 years ago.

BSAC still hasnt got a ferret inerting up ones a'rse course either, but i bet you there's plenty of people out there who could show you how to do it!?!?

That aside,, a twinset course.. wooooo... wonder if that would be as popular as the drysuit course!!?! or perhaps even the padi golf ball recovery course!?!? WTF!!?!?

Just wondering, did you do a course on how to find your a'rse with both hands??

In the UK the only time i see an independent twins diver he's BSAC. Ive never seen one out of the UK anywhere.

That probably because you've been wearig sun glasses with rather thick lenses outside of the UK...

The only places i have NOT seen twin indipendents in use has been,, well in Reunion, where they where using twin pillar valves + pony, in Russia, but, thats another story.. and umm thats about it!!! seen them everywhere else, and that includes the caves in florida, Truk, the Solomons and, well the list goes on.... ohh and guess what?? most of the people i've seen diving with indi's have NOT been BSAC divers... shock horror...... weird that isn't it??

Indies are for people scared of valve drills.

May i quote you on this?? BRILLIANT phrase,, such an epically BRILLIANT phrase... im soo going to repeat this back to you for ever and a day... such a stupid sentence it almost beggers belief......

Anyhow, as i said, im in a p'ssed off mood, you caught me on a bad day...

Lets end this hear and agree to move on, otherwise, i will get yourself and myself suspended :)

ChristianG

04-02-2011, 06:59

Methinks some people are perhaps getting a tad too hot under the collar.

A glass of nice, icy cold, water might be in order although it might not necessarily be applied to the throat, together with just a bit of introspection.

Big Blue BSAC

04-02-2011, 10:04

BogSnorkeller

04-02-2011, 17:05

Have to say - well done Neil for a stroppy, but spot-on post. Whenever I read puffed-up pronouncements like Richards' on why they know best and everyone else is wrong, I'm usually irritated but refrain from getting drawn into a tedious debate: if you wrestle a pig, you'll end up covered in ****e.

(For the record - I've got a lovely set up with indie twin 7s. Cost next to nothing. Very easy to use. Very hard to get yourself into difficulties with. Long-hose on right post allows me to donate, but Autoair inflator on jacket allows me to share the right tank with OOA diver if the chips are down.)

TerryH

04-02-2011, 18:10

Indies are for people scared of valve drills.

Well that would make an impressive 100% of indie users who wont be
messing up a valve drill anytime soon then ;)

Care to guess how many manifolded divers that would successfully
shut down when it matters?

Not going to get anywhere near 100% are you :rolleyes:

bythesea

04-02-2011, 19:44

BogSnorkeller

04-02-2011, 22:06

a simple question, not looking to start a ruck, just something I wonder about indies.

I often see sets, both valves pointing right, so, If you get a free flow or other issue that leads to loss of gas in the left tank do you just let it go until empty, I can't see how people could shut of that valve themselves.

Yep, you just get onto the other reg and get out of there. If you have a convenient buddy who can shut the valve down for you, you might be able to sort out a freeflow with his help. But the basic idea is that you plan your gas so that at all stages of the dive, either tank has enough gas to get you to the surface safely, so then if one tank goes tits up, you abort the dive and get out of there on the other one. Simple.

bythesea

04-02-2011, 22:18

Thanks, I was wondering more about water ingress than gas planning...

Woz

04-02-2011, 22:40

a simple question, not looking to start a ruck, just something I wonder about indies.

I often see sets, both valves pointing right, so, If you get a free flow or other issue that leads to loss of gas in the left tank do you just let it go until empty, I can't see how people could shut of that valve themselves.I can reach that valve. Then again I can reach the centre on on a manifold too. Just make sure all your hoses point down and as soon as you jump in the water you do a superman pose with each arm to pull your undersuit up. Reaching valves is a piece of cake then.

paul_c

04-02-2011, 22:45

tbh i dont think they think that much ahead if they are doing rec stuff. not a slight more of an observation.

its more a case of i know i have enough to get out if it happens.

johnskerry

04-02-2011, 23:25

Really? So these people advanced trimix instructors or other qualified people doing 100m+ open circuit dives are wannabe tech divers? Id hate to meet a real one. Would put astronauts to shame....

Or in the caes of indies, some bloke with a beard in a club who used one 20 years ago tells everyone else to use it "for when its really deep, a 15 and pony wont do. Make sure its air though" and the unsuspecting interested but new diver copies him.

If you dont need a manifold you dont need indies either.

BSAC don't teach it. Its fat blokes with sandals that "mentor". BSAC (still) has no twinset course despite the fact it was promised over 2 years ago.

In the UK the only time i see an independent twins diver he's BSAC. Ive never seen one out of the UK anywhere.

Indies are for people scared of valve drills.

Fancy that, here you are again on another thread talking out your rear end!

bythesea

05-02-2011, 09:58

Fancy that, here you are again on another thread talking out your rear end!

Get a room will ya....