Membership Numbers [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

John Williams

14-09-2003, 11:05

These numbers do exist (though they are not published)

When membership lapses for 3 months HQ write to the lapsed member reminding them of the benefits of the BSAC Branch system and membership of BSAC overall and asks them if they have simply made an oversight and would care to go down their branch and pay their subs - with no penalty! The member is also reminded that if the reason that they have not rejoined their branch is because they are no longer geographically stable that they may remain a member of the BSAC family, and access all the Regional and National events as a member of BSAC Direct.

IF there is no response (i.e. subs still dont get paid) to this letter then another is sent three months later further reminding them of the benefits and offering another opportunity to rejoin (without penalty) - but also asking them if they would mind filling in a questionaire to help the BSAC understand why it is that they feel we have not met their needs as a diver - and what we could do to improve our services to them.

This second letter almost invariably gets one of three responses:
1) No response at all
2) I've given up diving and therefore don't need to be a member of any diving agency anymore
3) Branch politics got on top of me so I gave it all up as a bad job. I now dive with mates.

If any of the suggestions made are local issues then the quesationaire asks if we can contact the diver through the Coaching Teams - and we get an Area or Regional Coach to give them a call and see if there is any way we can solve their problems and encourage them to rejoin their own branch, another branch or BSAC Direct (in that order)

All National issues are fed back into the NDC and Council for consideration.

However - your assertion that the reasons for leaving are diverse and often complex. This is why each case is dealt with in an individual basis and overall analysis is of limited use.

I have to say that the questionaire used to be sent out as a list of possible excuses for leaving and if I had ever received it and had been on-the-fence it would have pushed me away.(Hell - I nearly got convinced to leave when I saw it!)

It was redesigned a few months ago and is now far more positive and less prescriptive. It really does give the (correct) impression that BSAC cares and really wants to listen to outgoing members in an attempt to adapt to changing needs.

The only caveat that must be borne in mind is that there are far more people NOT providing feedback than those who do...so the message we are receiving could be completely skewed.

In the firm beleive that prevention is better than cure:

We also try to offer open feedback sessions at the end of all Regional and National events - so that we hear from BSAC members who might have a gripe ...before they think about leaving.

We try to get our Coaches in amongst the rank and file membership at visits/courses regularly. Please dont make the Coach sit with the DO and Chair all night...the views and opinions of the branch's divers and newcomers are just as valid.

Hope this helps you to understand what is done to reduce the loss of members - you can presumably evaluate all that is done to attract new members for yourself (though feedback on that would be welcomed it it were sent)

John Williams
Member: BSAC Concil Membership Services Working Group.

Alan Taylor

14-09-2003, 17:56

Ok, Keith has said over on the General forum to bring up these points over here, so I shall bite the bullet and try.

As I understand it, BSAC is suffering from Dwindling membership numbers.

The reasons presumably are threefold:

a) Not enough new members coming in
b) too many people try it, join BSAC and then don't continue
c) Too many older (read more experienced) divers are leaving because they no longer agree with the BSAC ways.

Oh, and d) People dropping out for other reasons.

It would be interesting to see if there are any numbers around that could be allocated to these sections (probably joing c and d together in "Experienced members leaving" as the reasons why will be hard to ascertain)

Do these numbers exist? If not, Why not.

Trying to drum up new members is a valid activity, but we should be trying our hardest to retain those who are already qualified, esp those who are instructors and senior divers, as these are the people who make the club work. I know of at least 1 AD/OWI who has not renewed his membership this year due to BSAC's Trimix/oxygen policy, I know of others (Myself included) considering this route.

What's to be done? I don't know, but thought I'd try and start the debate.

John

Dear John

please don't let this be a farewell topic if you and the others were to leave where would you go? do you want to leave because of just one policy or do you feel that you are not getting your own way trying banging away at BSAC until changes are made or go pro by that i mean HSE pro, it takes time to change things as most realise what next saturation, Lox, not exactly amature sport and underwater exploration. To increase numbers put your mits round some and say come and join us or come back to us and make space in the boat for them when they do. It worked for me I hope it can for you. In fact most of what you say and have suggested is only history repeating its self. Some have always recruited and trained new members accepted there money for subs kit boats etc and then when they are qualified turned round and said no room in this weekends boat. That is no the fault of BSAC is it but local. So who needs to change? It is a hard one as the actress said to the bishop. Stick around John BSAC loves you.

Alan

Vic

14-09-2003, 22:12

> if you and the others were to leave where would you go?

There's no need to "go" anywhere; it is entirely feasible to dive in this country without affiliating to any agency.

> trying banging away at BSAC until changes are made or go pro
> by that i mean HSE pro

This isn't an "either/or" situation; one can leave BSAC without becoming a professional. I did.

> it takes time to change things

It does, but there comes a time when people say "enough is enough". I happen to know what John and his acquaintance are complaining about - IMHO, the *biggest* problem is not that BSAC has some very strange views on the subject, it is that BSAC is not listening to what many divers have to say. John and his friends have a valid point to make - and BSAC as a whole can be hugely enriched by listening to them and working out how best to incorporate their style of diving without hindering anyone else (IMHO, this would be *trivial*; it just requires a little humility). Or BSAC can ignore them, and lose them. And all those that follow them. The choice really is that bleak.

> Lox, not exactly amature sport and underwater exploration.

But nobody's talking about anything that extreme; all anyone has mentioned is the sort of diving that goes on from hundreds of boats around the coast every weekend. Indeed, we're talking about the sort of diving many NDC and Council members do - albeit they claim those dives to be "private" dives in an attempt to ignore the rather embarrassing dichotomy this reveals...

> To increase numbers put your mits round some and say come and
> join us or come back to us and make space in the boat for them
> when they do.

*No*.

It's not about being pally-pally, and convincing people that they're better off toeing the line. There are *real* issues to be addressed here. If we insist on the "nanny knows best" line, we will lose significant numbers of experienced divers - and that will mean the death of the club, however many novices we attract. I have been a part of an exodus, and I fought for a year and a half to get BSAC to change some very dangerous advice it was giving. I promised to rejoin once they had sorted out the really crazy stuff - they did, so I did. But a large number of people who left over the same issue have not. That's our loss.

> then when they are qualified turned round and said no room in
> this weekends boat.

We're getting rather allegorical, but that's what's being said by BSAC to John and others; the only result we can possibly achieve here is that these divers will go away and do their own thing. And as they are the ones that are doing all the training of new divers, all the organising of expeditions, all the recruiting of membership, can you guess what will happen when they do?

> That is no the fault of BSAC is it but local.

No, you appear to have misunderstood the situation. This is the fault of BSAC because they insist on making up regulations contrary to accepted best practice.

> So who needs to change?

BSAC needs to change. If it refuses to listen to its experienced members, then it will lose them. If it loses enough experienced members, it will become unviable. It has already lost a large number...

Vic.

John Kendall

15-09-2003, 00:26

> it takes time to change things

It does, but there comes a time when people say "enough is enough". I happen to know what John and his acquaintance are complaining about - IMHO, the *biggest* problem is not that BSAC has some very strange views on the subject, it is that BSAC is not listening to what many divers have to say. John and his friends have a valid point to make - and BSAC as a whole can be hugely enriched by listening to them and working out how best to incorporate their style of diving without hindering anyone else (IMHO, this would be *trivial*; it just requires a little humility). Or BSAC can ignore them, and lose them. And all those that follow them. The choice really is that bleak.

As Vic has said, there are trivial changes that BSAC could make which would satisfy a lot of people. This is not a local issue. However those with the power in BSAC have ignored many requests for clarification or adjustments to be made to the SDPs. A couple of examples that spring to mind:

Maximum PPO2 of 1.4 and Max FO2 of 0.8, I was taught to use a PPO2 of 1.6 and an FO2 of 1 on my Trimix course, I was assessed in my ability to dive using these numbers, and passed, otherwise I wouldn't have the qualification, however because the BSAC technical Advisor (A non elected position) is scared of Oxygen, the rest of us are told that we can dive trimix in the club, but can't dive the way we were taught. And if you do break these recomendations, then the insurance is invalid.

The Only reason I am still a member of BSAC is so that I can teach, and I am running short of time and patience with BSAC, so I may even forget about doing that soon too.

> Lox, not exactly amature sport and underwater exploration.

But nobody's talking about anything that extreme; all anyone has mentioned is the sort of diving that goes on from hundreds of boats around the coast every weekend. Indeed, we're talking about the sort of diving many NDC and Council members do - albeit they claim those dives to be "private" dives in an attempt to ignore the rather embarrassing dichotomy this reveals...

Indeed, For me the Ideal gas mix to do a 48m dive would be 21/35 Trimix with 50% Nitrox as a deco gas starting at 21m. Now 48m is well within the bounds of what UK divers have been doing for a long time, and is not really extreme diving. Using trimix however makes the difference between it being a nice easy dive, and a dive that is one step from a tragedy. I wish to use the Gases I am qualified to use, in the way I have been taught.

What is my Issue? Well as the DO of a branch, anyone coming to me and asking for permission to do that dive, I have to say No. Why? Beacuse BSAC's 3rd party insurance would hang me out to dry if I said yes, and there was a problem.

The insurance company don't care what you do, as long as it is within the SDPs from BSAC? How do I know they don't care? I now have personal 3rd Party Insurance, from the same people, but to cover my TDI quals.

> To increase numbers put your mits round some and say come and
> join us or come back to us and make space in the boat for them
> when they do.

*No*.

It's not about being pally-pally, and convincing people that they're better off toeing the line. There are *real* issues to be addressed here. If we insist on the "nanny knows best" line, we will lose significant numbers of experienced divers - and that will mean the death of the club, however many novices we attract. I have been a part of an exodus, and I fought for a year and a half to get BSAC to change some very dangerous advice it was giving. I promised to rejoin once they had sorted out the really crazy stuff - they did, so I did. But a large number of people who left over the same issue have not. That's our loss.

Indeed, I have got people to Join BSAC, As I said, I am the DO of a branch, of course we bring in new members, but we are a Uni Branch, and most don't stay very long. We are lucky if we get 2 or 3 per year that stay on for more than 2 years, and of those not many remain BSAC members after they leave Uni. I do my best, but feel hypocritical about it a lot of the time.

> then when they are qualified turned round and said no room in
> this weekends boat.

We're getting rather allegorical, but that's what's being said by BSAC to John and others; the only result we can possibly achieve here is that these divers will go away and do their own thing. And as they are the ones that are doing all the training of new divers, all the organising of expeditions, all the recruiting of membership, can you guess what will happen when they do?

> That is no the fault of BSAC is it but local.

No, you appear to have misunderstood the situation. This is the fault of BSAC because they insist on making up regulations contrary to accepted best practice.

> So who needs to change?

BSAC needs to change. If it refuses to listen to its experienced members, then it will lose them. If it loses enough experienced members, it will become unviable. It has already lost a large number...

And it will continue to lose them. Yes, society is changing, people want more "Now" results, however there are also a lot of people who want the "Club" atmosphere, the group of friends, the pub meets etc. That is what we get locally from the branches, and that is what BSAC are good at. They need to try and not spoil it by being pants at a national level.

John

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

15-09-2003, 00:29

Hi All

I would just like to give you a few figures that I've dug out from a lapsed members survey (it's slightly out-of-date, I don't have the latest to hand), I hope that this will go some way towards explaining my comments about our main problems being society.

We analysed by ten reasons, there were -

1. (14%) I've moved
2. (6%) Taken up another adventure sport
3. (10%) Lost interest
4. (39%) Personal circumstances
5. (6%) To expensive
6. (2%) To time consuming
7. (10%) Dissatisfaction with branch
8. (6%) Dissatisfaction with BSAC
9. (2%) Joined another diving organisation
10. (5%) Other
[Survey size was nearly 900]

Now if you look at these you will see that over 75% of the reasons given are what I term 'society', if you want to know why the bulk of leavers are not renewing (3 out of four of them) then that is your reason.

Looking at Branch/BSAC dissatisfaction then the figure is 16% (around 1 in 6), it's worth noting that the figure for branch disatisfation is nearly twice that for BSAC disatisfaction.

Also remember that the majority of lapses are after the first year.

So I do take on board what John K and Vic are saying, we should not be loosing experienced members and we should be doing more to keep them, but also look at what John W has said. As a Council we must look at ALL of these reasons, we must try to make the club more attractive to new and to existing members.

So John K and Vic - although there is validity in what you are saying the simple fact of the matter is that if you concentrate only on the experienced divers issue as you have been doing, then you are only looking at a small percentage of a small percentage. It is something that we can do something about and we are looking at it, all of the time, but it is not the biggest issue by far if you're talking about lapses.

So how about widening the debate? As well as the issues with experienced divers that you have been highlighting what else should we be doing? I know that many branches have their own ideas and techniques for coping with the modern society, widening their scope to include more social non-diving activities is one thing that is done.

So come on folks, lets have some ideas! We've got our big membership survey underway, we've got a long two day Council meeting in December when it will be discussed, so how about some ideas from you about what we should be doing to make our club more attractive.

Regards

Keith L

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

15-09-2003, 00:31

That is what we get locally from the branches, and that is what BSAC are good at. They need to try and not spoil it by being pants at a national level.

We crossed in the post John. You may wish to revise that last statement in the face of the facts ;-))

K

John Kendall

15-09-2003, 00:46

:=That is what we get locally from the branches, and that is what BSAC are good at. They need to try and not spoil it by being pants at a national level.

We crossed in the post John. You may wish to revise that last statement in the face of the facts ;-))

Hmmm, When did facts ever get in the way of a good argument? :-)

Although a couple of things that strike me are:

1) People who have left because they are fed up with BSAC are not the most likely to send back the forms.

2) on the 2 occasions I have let my BSAC membership lapse, I never received a questionaire

See ya
John

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

15-09-2003, 00:50

:=:=That is what we get locally from the branches, and that is what BSAC are good at. They need to try and not spoil it by being pants at a national level.

:=We crossed in the post John. You may wish to revise that last statement in the face of the facts ;-))

Hmmm, When did facts ever get in the way of a good argument? :-)

On this forum, very rarely ;-)

Although a couple of things that strike me are:

1) People who have left because they are fed up with BSAC are not the most likely to send back the forms.

I disagree. It is in those circumstances that people want to make a point and make damn sure that they tell you why they are leaving.

2) on the 2 occasions I have let my BSAC membership lapse, I never received a questionaire

I don't have an answer for you there!

K

Vic

15-09-2003, 02:34

> I hope that this will go some way towards explaining my
> comments about our main problems being society.

Explain your comments? Certainly. But it does little to justify our actions as a club.

Elsewhere I posted about 3 members of my acquaintance who left BSAC. One got the questionnaire, but so late that she couldn't be bothered to send it back.

Add to that the fact that I didn't get a questionnaire when I left BSAC.

In this thread, John mentions that he didn't get a questionnaire.

So given my first-hand experience of they system, I must say I have no faith in it.

> 7. (10%) Dissatisfaction with branch
> 8. (6%) Dissatisfaction with BSAC
> 9. (2%) Joined another diving organisation

But these 3 options alone account for nearly 1 in 5 leavers. If we could retain these, that would go a long way to stemming the tide. And keeping people happy is fairly easy in many cases - we just have to make sure we don't expend time, effort, and money upsetting them.

> As a Council we must look at ALL of these reasons, we must try
> to make the club more attractive to new and to existing
> members.

Yes, that's fair. Nut I implore BSAC to look at sorting out these issues - it's *very* easy to satisfy the more experienced divers in the club (just stop making daft rules). I would venture that the loss of an experienced diver is far more significant to the club as a whole than the loss of a novice...

Then we can set about expending effort on recruiting & retaining the other levels.

> So John K and Vic - although there is validity in what you are
> saying the simple fact of the matter is that if you
> concentrate only on the experienced divers issue as you have
> been doing, then you are only looking at a small percentage of
> a small percentage.

I disagre that it is a small percentage - it is a *significant* percentage in numerical terms, and constitutes the backbone of the club. These guys are the ones we rely on to keep the branches ticking over...

> It is something that we can do something about and we are
> looking at it, all of the time, but it is not the biggest
> issue by far if you're talking about lapses.

It needs addressing. Urgently, And although it might not constutute the most numerous group of leavers, it does constitute a dramatic loss to the viability of the club. You can't use novices to teach novices!

> So how about widening the debate? As well as the issues with
> experienced divers that you have been highlighting what else
> should we be doing?

The biggest gripe I hear from newcomers to BSAC is that it takes too long to train. The reason for this is apparent - there aren't enough instructors to go around. Now it could be argued that the whole "NQI only" bit of training has been a major contributor to that lack, but let's not go there today. Let's just look at the fact that a goodly number of instructors rarely instruct any more - either because they've left BSAC or because the old mix of a decent first dive followed by a training dive doesn't seem to happen any more. Is this because the instructors are all off doing non-branch dives, perchance?

Vic.

andy botten

15-09-2003, 10:43

The biggest gripe I hear from newcomers to BSAC is that it takes too long to train.

As TO I get calls all the time - I'm going on holiday in three weeks to [somewhere exotic] and I want to dive.

How as a branch can we do anything for these people.
We have one hour a week in the local pool.

The great unwashed want a quick fix.

How can a branch run a crash course?
How can I get my instructors to give up a full weekend to train people unless there is something in it for them [issues of professional/payments]?
The cost of renting the pool for the weekend!
All of this combined would up the cost significantly. And would they want to be branch members afterwards?

If they are willing to go the branch route, our biggest problem is getting them in Open Water. Here the drop out rate rises rapidly. And it is VERY disheartening for the instructors.

Our sustained membership growth recently has been from cross-overs: those who having experienced the initial training want to dive/train, but in the context of a branch.

aquabin

15-09-2003, 12:32

Unless I am very much mistaken I have not been contacted at all after letting my (and my son's) membership lapse.

Matt

aquabin

15-09-2003, 12:47

The great unwashed want a quick fix.

such a nice comment!

Our sustained membership growth recently has been from cross-overs: those who having experienced the initial training want to dive/train, but in the context of a branch.

Except many come in I suspect at Padi OW level and then find as I did it very difficult to get to the next (Bsac) level as training is by volunteers and most dives are for Sport and above. So we ended up leaving as we couldnt get any dives in on the club boat.
In truth I have little spare time so I probably dont fall into the Branch member profile. I need to pay the fee for diving, get on a boat and dive. The easiest way for me to do this is to learn via Padi and go diving with more experienced buddies or use a dive guide until I am comfortable with my diving ability. This of course may not be the safest way in Bsac terms but it satisfies my needs - unfortunately BSAC do not.

Matt

Tony Dwyer

15-09-2003, 13:02

Andy

I am also a TO and your experience mirrors my own. We have had a fairly positive response for incoming PADI divers.
In our club training continues throughout the year. Boat diving is just another training opportunity! That said, experienced divers still get to do the dives they want. In addition, the instructors among them give of their time to help the lesser qualified along.

I posted the following elsewhere in the forum, I've stuck it here as it's more in context.

Contrary to the opinions of many vociferous pundits, the nature of diving has changed. While it is true that there are many that wish to pursue more technical and adventurous diving, they are in the minority. The vast majority of divers in the UK and indeed worldwide only dive occasionally. Most often when on holiday abroad. This is an increasing trend. Such people are very hard to entice into the club system.

But they can have a place in BSAC. They can be encouraged by enthusiasm and example.

Too often they are put off by the loud voices of the 'do it harder' brigade. They are no less divers because they do not wish to dive with shed loads of equipment to 50+ metres.
The branch which I have the pleasure to be a member of has seen growth over recent years, though we've had a slight slow down in the past year, which I believe is due to economic pressures rather than a failure in recruitment. An open hand and a welcoming smile goes a long way.

regards

Tony

Steve Walker

15-09-2003, 13:09

:=The great unwashed want a quick fix.
:=

such a nice comment!

:))))))) An excellent observation Matt.

My two cents worth, several times since starting with BSAC (1997) I've felt inclined to move away from the system, I haven't but I could easily _have_ done.

As I see it the problem(s) is that our system is about "people" not "commerce" and the fact is that (IMO) the attitude of a lot of divers leaves a lot to be desired, e.g. look at the stick the newbie Martin Church on the General forum!

Bottom line for me is that many divers I encounter while out and about, and many who post on forums, simply aren't friendly or encouraging. Sure, a lot of people who want to take up diving have a naive approach but so what?

I don't see myself leaving the BSAC camp, I've got too much of an investment in the system, but diver attitudes could be a heck of a lot better.

For example, I'll be diving this weekend with Matt and several others (some of whom I've never met yet) in an agency-independent group; I already know that my trip companions are friendly and have an attitude which means that I won't be regretting sharing my (all too limited) leisure time with.

Now, compare that free and easy approach to being in a club dominated by elitist cliques where some dives are "invitation only" or power junkie style DOs yadda yadda yadda, I'm sure most of us have seen the the downsides to club diving. Not hard to see why numbers could be dropping eh?
Regards
Steve

John Williams

15-09-2003, 16:26

Unless I am very much mistaken I have not been contacted at all after letting my (and my son's) membership lapse.

Matt

How long has it been since your membership was due for renewal Matt?

You are not over 3 months overdue by my reckoning

John

John Williams

15-09-2003, 16:42

Did your membership lapse by more than three-6 months past the due date?

The letters are sent out in batches when we get enough lapsed members who are lapsed beyond 3 months.

Same deal for the 6 month letters....so they are not always on your doormat 91 days after your membership was due.

John

andy botten

15-09-2003, 16:43

Except many come in I suspect at Padi OW level
Yes
and then find as I did it very difficult to get to the next (Bsac) level as training is by volunteers and most dives are for Sport and above. So we ended up leaving as we couldnt get any dives in on the club boat.

By accepting them into the branch we must train them to Sports ASAP and/or modify our club weekends to accommodate the 20m limit.
We had to do both, and it has been successful. Most are now moving up to Dive Leader having been with the club for over a year.

aquabin

15-09-2003, 17:03

:=Unless I am very much mistaken I have not been contacted at all after letting my (and my son's) membership lapse.
:=
:=Matt

How long has it been since your membership was due for renewal Matt?

You are not over 3 months overdue by my reckoning

John

I thought I was, I would need to check my cards if I still have them. I certainly wasnt having a pop at my previous 'branch'. I thought my membership lapsed earlier this year in the Spring.

Regards
Matt

aquabin

15-09-2003, 17:06

:=Except many come in I suspect at Padi OW level
Yes
:= and then find as I did it very difficult to get to the next (Bsac) level as training is by volunteers and most dives are for Sport and above. So we ended up leaving as we couldnt get any dives in on the club boat.

By accepting them into the branch we must train them to Sports ASAP and/or modify our club weekends to accommodate the 20m limit.
We had to do both, and it has been successful. Most are now moving up to Dive Leader having been with the club for over a year.

Sadly not all branches act as quickly as yours, again I am not deriding the last branch I was a member of as I was quite remote from them and happy with the arrangements we had agreed on. However, my local branch were not as helpfull.

Matt

modified/added - perhaps as you are local to me it is time I re-visited the idea of again being in a Branch, especially as John (Williams) seems to think my membership hasnt lapsed by as much as I think it has, the dementia seems to be getting worse these days ;-)

I must admit that the more I dive the more I realise I dont know and could benefit from greater knowledge.
MAtt

John Kendall

15-09-2003, 21:22

I've been thinking about this one today while stuck in traffic, and wondered if we have any numbers as to What diver grades we lose?

i.e How many OD/CD level we lost, How many SD etc.

And then I know it is asking a lot, but do we have any data on how the previous stats line up with my new question?

As Vic has stated, if we can prevent people leaving because they are fed up with BSAC, Their Branch, or want to join a different agency, then we have stemed a 20% loss, which has got to be a good thing.

See ya
John

John Williams

15-09-2003, 22:22

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

15-09-2003, 23:30

I can (and have in the past) produced statistics like that, they don't really add much to what we know already, you also need to weight them as a percentage of the overall membership with that grade.

The higest drop-out is in trainees/new members, many lapse after just one year.

After that the grade is fairly irrelevant, you start hitting the "three year rule". That's where you turn over one third of your membership every three years, many club MS's will agree with me on that one.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment your figures are rather optimistic, the figure (see my earlier stats) for dissatisfaction overall is only 16% and not 20%, there is no way that you could keep them all. If we managed to keep half of the 'dissatisfied with the BSAC' that would only be 3% - what are you going to do about the 10% dissatisfied with their branch?

If you want to make a real impact on retention then you've got to look at the main reasons, what I term the society reasons. That's 75% of lapses and if we could keep just a quarter of those then that's a REAL impact on the club!

Which brings us to the subject and purpose of the current survey. Whilst we certainly take on board your and Vic's comments re the dissatisfaction element we must also look elsewhere.

We must look closely at the society issues and try to make the BSAC more attractive, give our clubs to tools, ideas, help and opportunities so that they can attract and retain members. Which is why I am asking the clubs.

From every statistic I've seen over the years (I have produced many for Council) it's all pointing to the society issue as being the main one, no matter how you analyse and break it down it comes back to that. So I could produce the statistic that you've asked for John, but it wont really help!

Also, beware statistics. One of my favorite quotes comes from the dusty pages of Hansard : "If you torture statistics for long enough they can be made to confess to anything". Swamps and aligators also spring to mind... ;-)

Keith L

Vic

16-09-2003, 00:09

> The higest drop-out is in trainees/new members, many lapse
> after just one year.

Sure. TBH, I'm not interested in those - they're just a fact of life (although it would be interesting if we could work out a way to avoid them...)

> the figure (see my earlier stats) for dissatisfaction overall
> is only ... there is no way that you could keep them all.

No. And I'm sure we all understand that. But what weight should we apply to those leavers, and how hard should we try to stop them leaving? My personal experience is that this is a small but *extremely* significant group.

> If we managed to keep half of the 'dissatisfied with the BSAC'
> that would only be 3%

What does that translate into, in actual numbers?

If that's 3% of 5000 people, that's 150 divers. If they turned out to be 150 instructors, that's a haemorrage!

> - what are you going to do about the 10% dissatisfied with
> their branch?

Those are more difficult to deal with, but we ought to look at them. If we're losing >=16% because of preventable problems with the club, then that's >=16% that we should be looking to retain.

> If you want to make a real impact on retention then you've got
> to look at the main reasons, what I term the society reasons.
> That's 75% of lapses

I'm sorry, buit I have real problems believing that stat. I'm not for one moment implying anything about the honesty of those that collected the stats - just that the collection mechanism is flawed and I'm not convinced those that reply will do so honestly; you know how it is with we Brits - we never like to cause a scene...

> Whilst we certainly take on board your and Vic's comments re
> the dissatisfaction element we must also look elsewhere.

Absolutely. Just, please, don't ignore the fact that many *are* dissatisfied, and we're losing important people as a result.

> We must look closely at the society issues and try to make the
> BSAC more attractive, give our clubs to tools, ideas, help and
> opportunities so that they can attract and retain members.
> Which is why I am asking the clubs.

Come ask our club. You know where we are. Come and ask us about the research we did about leaving BSAC en masse. The whole club...

> Also, beware statistics. One of my favorite quotes comes from
> the dusty pages of Hansard : "If you torture statistics for
> long enough they can be made to confess to anything". Swamps
> and aligators also spring to mind... ;-)

My favourite is about how statistics are used "much as a drunk uses a lamppost - more for support than illumination" ;-)

Vic.

Paul Oliver

16-09-2003, 00:23

Andy

very good points, and the way we as a branch do things.

Matt and Steve

Get your Northern/Midland asses out for a dive with Canterbury Divers. I totally understand what you are saying and i am thinking about going elsewhere myself with some the out of date attitudes. But i have the boats, compressor, pool and willing inexperienced divers to keep doing what i enjoy, when i want and for a bloody good price.

Dive safe

Paul
DO Branch 326

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

16-09-2003, 00:29

> The higest drop-out is in trainees/new members, many lapse
> after just one year.

Sure. TBH, I'm not interested in those - they're just a fact of life (although it would be interesting if we could work out a way to avoid them...)

I think that we're going to have to agree to differ on some aspects of this Vic, but only in the area of emphasis. Whilst I agree with the majority of your reply and your points are well made (as usual) I cannot agree with your statement above. I cannot accept that as a ?fact of life? and not try to do anything about it, it?s a huge number.

You are placing too much emphasis on the experienced retention problem, although it is important I feel that at least equal weight must be given to the very high drop out amongst new members. What are we doing wrong? Why are our instructors wasting their time with them? What are individual branches doing to address this problem? What can we do at national level to help our branches?

This is every bit as important as the experienced member problem. I?ll leave you with one thought ? where are your future experienced members going to come from?

Regards

Keith L

Chris Cherrington

16-09-2003, 10:24

So come on folks, lets have some ideas! We've got our big membership survey underway, we've got a long two day Council meeting in December when it will be discussed, so how about some ideas from you about what we should be doing to make our club more attractive.

Regards

Keith L

I'm an odd one out here - I have recently joined!! My branch (Brighton) has a hard boat and goes diving. My partner and I go out on the boat and dive (so two new active members). This is good. Like any club we are over-reliant on a few selfless individuals to organise everything and all the rest of us take this for granted. Sometimes things go wrong and it is frustrating, but I guess that is also a feature of club diving. If I paid a commercial skipper I would not tolerate what I laugh off at club level.
As to BSAC's rules (e.g. FO2 80 max) who cares? Why do you "need" insurance (third party that is?). Provided the DO lets you use the facilities this seems OK to me.

To answer your question Keith - how to make it better - I have two suggestions:-
1. Training - get branches to collaborate to speed it up. I can't see why anyone bothers with BSAC (basic) training unless they are skint. It just aint fast enough - sorry guys but that's the truth. You get what you pay for in life - if its free its slow. The skills development and more advanced stuff like DL and AD fair enough - there is no rush to get these done.
2. Dogmatic rules - try to get things in perspective. I enjoy the in-depth forum as I have an interest in mixed gases and am working towards my Trimix. But this is not something I expect to do with my new friends at my branch. They dive up to about 35m or so. Its fun - I enjoy it - I am not leaving BSAC. But I still expect to do other stuff. Maybe there should be "technical" branches so all the teckies can be together?

I think you're problem is there are too many branches so the resources are spread too thin. Our TO works hard and if he wasn't there a lot less would get done. You cannot rely on that sort of ethusiasm for ever....

Chris.

john kendall

16-09-2003, 11:01

As to BSAC's rules (e.g. FO2 80 max) who cares? Why do you "need" insurance (third party that is?). Provided the DO lets you use the facilities this seems OK to me.

But How can a DO allow you to do this? It is outside of the BSACs SDPs, this means that if something goes wrong, then the DO is up a creek without a paddle, as the insurance will not cover them.

There lies the problem there, but since it is not on thread, and most people have heard my rant about this before, I won't go on.

John

Chris Cherrington

16-09-2003, 11:12

:=As to BSAC's rules (e.g. FO2 80 max) who cares? Why do you "need" insurance (third party that is?). Provided the DO lets you use the facilities this seems OK to me.

But How can a DO allow you to do this? It is outside of the BSACs SDPs, this means that if something goes wrong, then the DO is up a creek without a paddle, as the insurance will not cover them.

There lies the problem there, but since it is not on thread, and most people have heard my rant about this before, I won't go on.

John

There was -a week or so ago I think- a thread about what constitutes a "branch dive". If I understand correctly the DO can "stop" you diving on a branch dive if you are outside the "rules". However, the opinion also seemed to be the "rules" were recommendations and the DO was nothing to do with it if it was not a branch dive.
Forgive me - as a new member I ask again the question about insurance - what does it matter? You say the DO is up the proverbial creek - does that mean s/he is somehow responsible and therefore financially liable??? If I book a commercial boat and go off and do a 120m dive on Nitrox32 is the skipper liable as s/he let me do it?
I genuinely do not understand - I thought 3rd party insurance (and that is what we are talking about isn't it?) was to cover things like dropping a tank on your mate's foot. Are you saying BSAC's insurance would cough up if I croak on a club dive?? Funny sort of insurance company that pays out at all; most of them don't even pay up when thay have to!!
Chris

iainmsmith

16-09-2003, 11:39

:=:=As to BSAC's rules (e.g. FO2 80 max) who cares? Why do you "need" insurance (third party that is?). Provided the DO lets you use the facilities this seems OK to me.
:=
:=But How can a DO allow you to do this? It is outside of the BSACs SDPs, this means that if something goes wrong, then the DO is up a creek without a paddle, as the insurance will not cover them.
:=
There was -a week or so ago I think- a thread about what constitutes a "branch dive". If I understand correctly the DO can "stop" you diving on a branch dive if you are outside the "rules". However, the opinion also seemed to be the "rules" were recommendations

The so-called "rules" are only recommendations in that BSAC won't hunt you down if you choose to ignore them. From the perspective of the more experienced diver/DO, they are rules, in that BSAC's insurers will not cover you in the event that you have deviated from them.

For example, imagine the following (simplified) example:

I, as an instructor, am teaching an inexperienced diver. They have a buoyancy moment that, for whatever reason, neither of us get on top of in time. They end up on the surface, bent, and are left with a permanent disability. They try to sue me, my DO and my Branch for not taking adequate care of them, loss of earnings, hardship, etc. etc.

The results of this action will, in part, depend on how they were diving - if diving on the buoyancy of their drysuit alone, then they were diving in accordance with BSAC SDPs (even though, IMO, it's a lot harder to get a runaway drysuit under control) then the insurance is valid and the insurers cover any pay-out. OTOH, if they were merely keeping the squeeze off with their suit and diving on their BC (contrary to BSAC SDPs, but in keeping with the beliefs of many divers/instructors) then I was not ensuring that BSAC SDPs were followed, arguably neither was my DO, and potentially both me, my DO and our Branch get done for the full amount.

and the DO was nothing to do with it if it was not a branch
dive.

So what if some of the kit in use belongs to the Branch? Is it a Branch dive? Ultimately, this would have to be decided in court, but there is a strong possibility that it does.

Forgive me - as a new member I ask again the question about insurance - what does it matter? You say the DO is up the proverbial creek - does that mean s/he is somehow responsible and therefore financially liable???

Potentially, yes.

If I book a commercial boat and go off and do a 120m dive on Nitrox32 is the skipper liable as s/he let me do it?

You'd have to ask a skipper, but I think you will find that there is some mechanism by which they are responsible for getting you to the site, in the water, out of the water and back to shore, but beyond that it's up to you. For example, no skipper I have been out with ever checks qualifications - to do so would imply taking some responsibility for allowing divers into the water.

In contrast, in the Branch Officers' Handbook (and in other texts) you will find in black and white that the DO is ultimately responsible for all Branch diving activities.

I genuinely do not understand - I thought 3rd party insurance (and that is what we are talking about isn't it?) was to cover things like dropping a tank on your mate's foot. Are you saying BSAC's insurance would cough up if I croak on a club dive??

Potentially. If your death was due to some act or omission (ie negligence) on the part of your buddy then your surviving family/estate might sue your buddy/DO/Branch. Assuming a successful court case, who ultimately paid out might depend to an extent on how closely BSAC SDPs were being followed.

Iain

mark

16-09-2003, 11:41

I almost left BSAC and probably diving due to my old branch, and their attitudes. I then found a branch that invited me to join them. It was the best thing that could have happened to my diving. I have progressed in my diving and had my eyes opened to all the different "ways" of diving. They are a friendly group of peole who take in divers from all backgrounds, they teach them and encourage them to develope their diving.

That branch has now got me working for them as the TO, my biggest problem now is finding instructors, why is this you might ask, well I am the TO for John's branch and I have trouble getting instructors because of the BSAC SOP arguments, that John and Iain have listed many times on these forums.

The problem is that these arguments keep getting listed, long hose, oxygen use etc, but there is never any real debate and nothing changes. BSAC please debate this and solve it before I have no instructors left. As a uni branch I need the experienced divers to teach the new intake each year, without them there will be no club.

At the moment I feel that if something isn't done and the matter discussed properly, then, I will probably follow John, Iain and other friends (AD's from another branch) who have left for these reasons.

Or will it be a case of the next time there is a vote for the council that we will have to vote for people who we belive will listen, if we are still here, because it appears that the current people don't listen.

If I do follow the way being led by my fellow divers that will be another OWI gone, which will make 3-4 from one branch, in one go.

If a form came out asking me why I had left, after being left for 6 months it would just go in the bin as I would have made my statment, with my feet and money by leaving.

iainmsmith

16-09-2003, 11:47

2. Dogmatic rules - try to get things in perspective. I enjoy the in-depth forum as I have an interest in mixed gases and am working towards my Trimix. But this is not something I expect to do with my new friends at my branch. They dive up to about 35m or so. Its fun - I enjoy it - I am not leaving BSAC. But I still expect to do other stuff.

Likewise. But if there are a group of trimix-qualified divers in a Branch, then why should they be prevented from diving in accordance with their training and qualifications as a part of Branch activities.

Maybe there should be "technical" branches so all the teckies can be together?

Why would they be needed? In my Branch, for example, there are all levels of diver from novice to AI to trimix to cavern. A Branch trimix dive, will obviously involve only those qualified to dive trimix. A weekend of 20m dives will be open to almost everyone (although curiously, the trimix-qualified divers seem to make regular appearances on the shallow trips also)

Additionally, setting up "technical" Branches wouldn't actually help the underlying problems that BSAC has with technical diving.

Iain

Trevor M

16-09-2003, 11:50

1. Training - get branches to collaborate to speed it up. I can't see why anyone bothers with BSAC (basic) training unless they are skint. It just aint fast enough - sorry guys but that's the truth. You get what you pay for in life - if its free its slow.

Hmmm.... from my position, this is one of the strengths of the BSAC club system. Like most university clubs, we offer training and diving geared towards a student budget. If you want to go out and get trained in a week and pay the money, that's your choice, but not everyone has that choice, financially - I certainly didn't and still don't! We endeavour to make it as cheap as possible, therefore making it available to EVERYONE who is interested, not just those with money.

We could train people a lot faster, if the VOLUNTEER instructors are prepared to spend every night of every week taking in trainees in swimming pools. See where the problem is?

Although we (like most clubs) dive all through winter, when we get the chance, because of the number of trainees we have, we get them to aim to be ready for the 1 week training trip in March. That means we have about 12 available pool hours to get them through the pool stuff. Usually, the boxes can all be ticked way before that, but the trainees are happy to come back to the pool, and continue honing their skills which makes transfer into open water even easier. We need about 40 trainees to have the trip at capacity, and most years, we have to turn away a few people (non-IFC SDs are normally the first casualties to leave room for trainees).

Now, IMO, if you learn to dive in a week in Nov, or over a period of weeks from Nov - March, you aren't missing out on a whole lot of diving, however, when the diving comes around, you're in much better condition diving-wise because of the extra time spent in the pool developing your buoyancy, playing underwater frisbee etc.

If it's cheaper it's slower (paraphrase) - true, but I for one don't think that's a bad thing.

T

P.S. Everything above could probably describe most university clubs - just using ours as an example.

Chris Cherrington

16-09-2003, 12:17

:=1. Training - get branches to collaborate to speed it up. I can't see why anyone bothers with BSAC (basic) training unless they are skint. It just aint fast enough - sorry guys but that's the truth. You get what you pay for in life - if its free its slow.

Hmmm.... from my position, this is one of the strengths of the BSAC club system. Like most university clubs, we offer training and diving geared towards a student budget. If you

There is another thread on the General forum about a new member who is fed up with the wait and went of to do a PADI OW. Sure if you are talking about Uni students they may be able to wait and be skint. I tried to join the Sunderland Uni BSAC when I was there 10 years ago. I was on my MA so only 1 year. I was also a PADI OW at the time. They were rude - they slagged off PADI they were (you know the W word). I made friends with another guy a PADI DM and we went diving. 10 years later BSAC has changed in my opinion. My branch are not rude, they do not slagg off PADI, they respect mine and my partners many years of experience and most of them are not (you know - the W word). Nearly all of them I would call friends not just fellow club members.
Nonetheless most people that take up diving are not HE students. They shell out ?2,000 on kit in week 3 and sign up for Red Sea holidays. They do not want to wait 6 months to qualify. Perhaps more should be made of the availability of BSAC schools?? If you want more members you need to be more "market oriented" (sorry my MA was in marketing..) give people what they want.
I would like more people to join my branch - we have a boat and it is not fully utilised, but more unqualified divers means more 10m training dives so I am being selfish - more PADI Rescue or equivalent or higher. Then we all get to go diving - this is a DIVING club isn't it????
Our TO is a very nice bloke and works hard, but the try-dives and so on just do not bring in the members. I cannot believe that the facilities I enjoy are not of interest to other divers. I can understand why the slow training is a turn off though. That's not to say it isn't good - that is not the issue - getting new people in is the issue.
Chris

aquabin

16-09-2003, 14:10

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

17-09-2003, 00:03

Thanks for those comments Chris

They are particularly valuable and worth listening to because as a new member what Chris is saying is ?as others see us?, I personally feel that there is some validity in what he is saying.

On the issue of training I personally believe that there is room for both, some people like the idea of leisurely training schedules and being trained by their friends without the commercial pressures, others (yes, I was one of them) prefer to take the lifestyle/time option of commercial training. The point is that there is room for both, the most successful clubs seem to be those who do train but also welcome divers qualified commercially and/or from other agencies. [Those who know me will know that those are my personal views ? ?a diver, is a diver, is a diver? and the logo on the qualification card is largely irrelevant]. Unfortunately there are still a few ?BSAC or nothing? dinosaurs around, all that we can really do about that is wait for their inevitable extinction.

The question that is being raised here is should we be placing as much emphasis as we do on the basic training of divers? Should we be placing more emphasis on the club aspect and attracting more qualified divers like Chris to enter the club environment? Discuss.

Regards

Keith L

Just a note on insurance Chris : The reason that you need it is the ?anybodies fault but mine? blame culture and the ambulance chasing land sharks (lawyers). [Yup, I?ll probably get in trouble for that comment!]. In the unlikely and unfortunate situation of an incident involving your buddy then YOU will be in the direct firing line, probably along with the dive marshal, the DO and anybody else they feel like trying to sue. Who will look after your interests and defend your actions? We will. You are being sued by a third party, you would be defended and assisted by the BSAC and our insurers, our insurance would probably cover any third party claim. Or of course you can fend for yourself with no insurance!

Alan Taylor

17-09-2003, 20:19

Steve Walker

18-09-2003, 11:25

:=Matt and Steve
:=
:=Get your Northern/Midland asses out for a dive with Canterbury Divers. I totally understand what you are saying and i am thinking about going elsewhere myself with some the out of date attitudes. But i have the boats, compressor, pool and willing inexperienced divers to keep doing what i enjoy, when i want and for a bloody good price.
:=

"Shandyshire" is one hell of a long way from The Toon (y'narr like) but maybe next year eh? - if you can find enough of your divers that can leave their lobby hooks behind for a day or two ;)
Chee-az
Steve

aquabin

22-09-2003, 15:46

Never took your comment as a "pop" at your previous branch.

The letters go out 15-18months after HQ subs were last paid (i.e. 3-6months overdue). Work out when your is due...if you don't get it then I'd be very interested to hear from you.

John

John
I stand corrected, my membership lapsed in April so I have jumped the gun ever so slightly.
If I forget to let you know if I receive the survey in a couple of months can you remind me?
Regards
Matt

matt

22-09-2003, 18:26

Hi Keith

Interesting thread which has covered a lot of ground. Sorry it has taken a while to get back but half the problem has been knowing where to start.

I come to this as a chairman of a 49 year established branch attempting to drag itself into the 21st century. Over the last 2 years or so, our membership has risen from 75ish to 100ish. Whilst I try not to be complacent about such things, the current word from the local skipper's and shops is 'Your doing alright'.

They are particularly valuable and worth listening to because as a new member what Chris is saying is ?as others see us?, I personally feel that there is some validity in what he is saying.

Agreed. However running a club is not just about attracting new members. There is a cycle going on. People coming through the door do so because they percieve that a club will offer them a benefit. Those benefits are supplied by the clubs established members. Only after the new member is convinced that the club is worth contributing to and they feel they can contribute, do they do so. So you need balance and momentum. Without etsablished members working in the branch new members do not join. Without new members you have little chance of replaceing your workers. If you allow the situation to stagnate new memebers never progress from being largely a drain on resource to the point where they are the resource.

Chris correctly states;
"Like any club we are over-reliant on a few selfless individuals to organise everything and all the rest of us take this for granted. "

This situation is a fact of club life we have to live with. These selfless individuals have a special blend of motivation, personal circumstance and ability which is far from common. They make a dive club a high prority in their lives, something worth contributing their free time to, something worth trying for. These people are our key personel. Without them a club may be able to survive but it is unlikely to be successful.

This brings us back to the point Vic raised. The people that make dive clubs a high prority in their lives are generally those for which diving itself is a priority. We can expect these people to progress in the sport and to find an underwater challenge which is more than just diving for the sake of it. So called 'technical' diving is one such challenge. In fact technical diving itself has broad appeal as a compliment to other specialisations. Photographers, archaeologists, marine biologists, cavers etc. are using twinsets, mixed gas and rebreathers to help them in their chosen interest.

IMVHO BSACs current policy of trying to dictate how technical divers should dive is at best Nationally sanctioned agency bashing and at worse complete lunacy. It makes as much sense to ban those who wish to use 100% or 1.6PPO as it does to ban everyone using a Buhlmann table or all photographers who use SLRs - none at all.

If we place barriers in the way of the 'pasionate' people who by their nature are most likely to progress, we lose them. These people are a minority but they are by and large the minority who make diving enough of a priority to contribute to the clubs which offer them involvement. If we fail to involve this minority where do we find our key personel? Without these key people who provides the services to attract new members? Who provides the example to show contributing to the club creates a better club? Who provides the inspiration and motivation which encourages new members to make diving a priority?

It is worth considering just how rare these people are. I would suggest that of 10 people that join we are lucky if we get one inspirational individual. Three leave in the first year when they realise how much effort is involved in diving. Three leave by year three by which time the novelty has worn off. Of the four left, one will actively avoid helping, two will want to help but will not get round to it, leaving one willing to make a difference to branch operation. I can't speak for other branches but quite frankly if I lose just one committed person branch services suffer significantly until a suitable replacement is found which can take several years. In looking at my own clubs high and low points they are directly attributable to the comings and goings of key individuals.

To summarise please BSAC stop excluding our most passionate people, because they are the ones that drive the branch. They are the ones that create the involvement. They are the ones that command the influence. Without them we have very little to offer. Pursueing a route which encourages only average divers is IMVHO dangerous as the people that run branches are anything but average divers.

On the issue of training I personally believe that there is room for both, some people like the idea of leisurely training schedules and being trained by their friends without the commercial pressures, others (yes, I was one of them) prefer to take the lifestyle/time option of commercial training. The point is that there is room for both, the most successful clubs seem to be those who do train but also welcome divers qualified commercially and/or from other agencies. Unfortunately there are still a few ?BSAC or nothing? dinosaurs around, all that we can really do about that is wait for their inevitable extinction.

There is only one essential reason to join a dive club, TO GO DIVING. I would suggest that to encourage people to go diving you need to do three things.
Enable them - yes you still need to provide training.
Facilitate - make diving accesible, the harder you make it to dive the easier it is for people to give up.
Involve them - the more you can involve people the more they will get out of club membership. Despite changes in lifestyle social involvement remains a basic need.

IMVHO if you can deliver the above your membership will grow. If you do not deliver the above you exclude by inferrence and the membership declines. I really do not think we should try and control how people go about their diving. Our job is provide the opportunity and hope they enjoy it enough to make it a priority.

The question that is being raised here is should we be placing as much emphasis as we do on the basic training of divers? Should we be placing more emphasis on the club aspect and attracting more qualified divers like Chris to enter the club environment? Discuss.

I don't think BSAC should be at all descriptive about what branches choose to do. If your situated next to a historic wreck then it stands a chance you could be successful spcialising in archaeology. If your in a Uni there would be little point going after technical divers. If you are inland you may well be able to succeed by offerring primarily training. If you happen to be on the coast with a high concentration of divers in the area and a similarly high concentration of commercial services, you will probably need to have a wide ranging interest and offer services complimentary to the commercial operations.

BSACs role is to provide an environment which encourages any and all of these branches to succeed. A successful branch will deliver the members. After all Keith did you join BSAC or did you join your local dive club? Personally I joined the local club and I think that is true for the majority of our members.

Now maybe you would like to discuss how BSAC are making branch operation difficult and why I keep one eye on the alternative?

Finally I would just like to add that I probably have not made my point as well as I would like. If I come across as negative that is not my intention. It is now far easier to go diving and there are far more people qualified to dive or wishing to learn. While lifestyle has changed the need for challenge and social involvemenet has not. We have all the ingredients to make amateur dive clubs a success if we only get on and start to do so.

Regards
Matt

Paul Oliver

23-09-2003, 19:03

Hi Matt,

Very well said and i totally support your statement, your figures, reasoning and examples match those of Canterbury Divers in every way.

Well done,

Paul

Mike Halligan

23-09-2003, 19:28

Finally I would just like to add that I probably have not made my point as well as I would like. If I come across as negative that is not my intention. It is now far easier to go diving and there are far more people qualified to dive or wishing to learn. While lifestyle has changed the need for challenge and social involvemenet has not. We have all the ingredients to make amateur dive clubs a success if we only get on and start to do so.

Matt,

Au contraire, you have summarised most eloquently what many of us have faltered in saying, and at the same time prevented rationalisation of these _very_ serious issues for the BSAC.

I believe we are haemorrhaging our greatest potential, possibly through the intolerance of vested interests, or maybe we _are_ (all of us??) running 'ere we can walk. Diving is now very accessible, BSAC diving is often inaccessible. A more inclusive, positive, permissive and supportive stance would still save us, but IMHO, we are on the brink.

Sadly, I really don't believe we will survive. We must cut down those who quote history at us right away, and get on as 50 years ago others got on. BSAC is in many areas like banging one's head on a wall, wonderful when one stops.

Mike

PeteM

23-09-2003, 20:06

Well said Matt, far more elloquent than I could manage

Pete

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

23-09-2003, 21:37

Adrian Kelland

23-09-2003, 21:38

Very well put Matt.

BSAC should remember that it was formed from branches, and will die if branches die or leave. There is no BSAC without them.

Adrian

John Williams

23-09-2003, 21:54

:=
:=
:=Never took your comment as a "pop" at your previous branch.
:=
:=The letters go out 15-18months after HQ subs were last paid (i.e. 3-6months overdue). Work out when your is due...if you don't get it then I'd be very interested to hear from you.
:=
:=John

John
I stand corrected, my membership lapsed in April so I have jumped the gun ever so slightly.
If I forget to let you know if I receive the survey in a couple of months can you remind me?
Regards
Matt

I'll make a note to ask this time next year...which is 5 months after missed renewal date!

John

Adrian Kelland

24-09-2003, 12:34

Very well said and well put Matt, although I am correct when I state numbers you are also correct when you highlight the importance of these experienced divers - it may be easier to retain or attract one trainee, but it is more important to retain that one experienced diver who makes things tick.

I feel that the specific technical issues that you raise should be debated, somebody from NDC should be willing to answer questions. I feel that the time has come to have that debate.

Keith L
Keith

Is there an open forum at the DOC where these issues can be raised and discussed? I don't know the format of the day.

It's a long time to the next AGM to raise a proposal to accept other agency qualifications, but this gives plenty of time to sort out wording and study implications of its acceptance, or not of course. Giving a 'heads up' to the NDC at the DOC would give them notice that this is important to our branches, and that the AGM is probably the appropriate point to propose change.

Adrian

andycarroll

24-09-2003, 13:28

Chris Cherrington

24-09-2003, 15:29

What's to be done? I don't know, but thought I'd try and start the debate.

John

Well we all seem to be agreed - Matt you summed it up exactly. An excellent critique of what's wrong.

Question - how to fix it???

At risk of repeating myself (I'm getting old now..) I still think some co-operation between branches would help. Quicker training, sharing resources and experienced members and offering a broader range of diving. The main problem I see is how to do this in practice since most branches are independent and your TO will set up a training schedule for his/her members and their needs. But what a waste to find you have missed some lecture or skill due to social/work/university reasons and you could have taken the same "module" just half an hour's drive away....

I fear the organisational logistics will prevent this.

Would it perhaps make some sense to have a common training/diving calender posted on the Internet - maybe the regional W3??

Surely all branches have someone that has access to the 'net?

As to the issue of silly rules I think we are making some progress - well done to everyone that has posted on this subject.
Chris

Adrian Kelland

24-09-2003, 17:47

Hi

My first post on the BSAC forum. Hello. I am a dive leader with Goole Aramis branch and going through the OWI route at the moment.

With regards to other quals from other agencies, I thought that if you filled in a form and sent it to HO then they will allow you to use those quals on branch dives.

Link: <a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/trq.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/trq.htm</a>

This statement covers rebreather AND trimix quals and if your trimix qual included 100% o2 and higher po2's doesn't that cover it ?

Am I wrong or does this not suffice?

Andy

Welcome Andy, to the land of confusion.

To be honest, I dont know if that is enough. The BSAC safe Diving Pracices say that Nitrox over %80 may not be used by recreational (now theres a term) divers. This is for non-rebreather or trimix dives. I understand that TDI Adv Nitox allows 100% O2 deco, but this qual is not one of the registerable ones?

This registration exists as BSAC do not have their own quals at these levels, but I think that they may be developing them. Why we need to reivent a working wheel I don't know. I wonder if BSAC will continue to accept these other quals once it has it's own courses up and running.

Adrian

PeteM

24-09-2003, 18:55

To be honest, I dont know if that is enough. The BSAC safe Diving Pracices say that Nitrox over %80 may not be used by recreational (now theres a term) divers. This is for non-rebreather or trimix dives. I understand that TDI Adv Nitox allows 100% O2 deco, but this qual is not one of the registerable ones?

I was under the impression that this rule applied to RB and Trimix/Accelerated deco divers as well

This registration exists as BSAC do not have their own quals at these levels, but I think that they may be developing them. Why we need to reivent a working wheel I don't know. I wonder if BSAC will continue to accept these other quals once it has it's own courses up and running.

I think the precedent is they will, after all we accept TDI/IANTD/PADI Nitrox tickets, RYA power boat etc.

Paul Oliver

24-09-2003, 18:58

Hi Adrian

Yes there is an open forum at the end of DOC. Questions / issues are written on a bit of paper and submitted during the day for inclusion in this session.

I will ask it if necessary, but i did leave during this last year when i got bored with some of the issues raised and the same old winging.

Dive Safe, Dive Nitrox

Paul

matt

24-09-2003, 21:37

Hi

My first post on the BSAC forum. Hello. I am a dive leader with Goole Aramis branch and going through the OWI route at the moment.

With regards to other quals from other agencies, I thought that if you filled in a form and sent it to HO then they will allow you to use those quals on branch dives.

Link: <a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/trq.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/trq.htm</a>

This statement covers rebreather AND trimix quals and if your trimix qual included 100% o2 and higher po2's doesn't that cover it ?

Well you would think wouldn't you. Lots of 'recommendation' and 'should' in the wordings. Nothing too prescriptive or limiting.

Am I wrong or does this not suffice?

Have a look at <a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpubt9.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpubt9.htm</a>

Now look at the bit in bold;
"Any BSAC member who holds a Nitrox Diver qualification issued by one of the Nitrox training agencies recognised by BSAC [inaccurate list deleted] may use Nitrox on Branch diving activities ensuring they stay within the safe diving practices recommendations."

So the recommendations in the SDPs are no longer recommendations to guide but rules to follow. Interestingly it appears that they are only rules because my Nitrox qual was awarded by another agency before BSAC had a course.

BTW is it me or have some subtle changes been occurring in the info sheets. Apparently I am now a BSAC ERD diver and I am sure I wasn't last time I looked.

Regards
Matt

Adrian Kelland

25-09-2003, 09:31

:=To be honest, I dont know if that is enough. The BSAC safe Diving Pracices say that Nitrox over %80 may not be used by recreational (now theres a term) divers. This is for non-rebreather or trimix dives. I understand that TDI Adv Nitox allows 100% O2 deco, but this qual is not one of the registerable ones?

I was under the impression that this rule applied to RB and Trimix/Accelerated deco divers as well

So does that meand that their training is not completely accepted 'as is'?

:=This registration exists as BSAC do not have their own quals at these levels, but I think that they may be developing them. Why we need to reivent a working wheel I don't know. I wonder if BSAC will continue to accept these other quals once it has it's own courses up and running.

I think the precedent is they will, after all we accept TDI/IANTD/PADI Nitrox tickets, RYA power boat etc.

Yes, but only if within the BSAC SDPs. That's OK is your training is within those limits. As I said before, TDI Adv Nitrox teaches 100% O2 deco., but that's outside the SDPs. So we don't FULLY accept other agency training for its own sake.

If a TDI trained diver decides they want to use the 100% O2 they have been trained to use, they may as well not be part of BSAC, and sort out their own 3rd party insurance if they think about it. Some would say this has the additional benefit on not getting DIVE :-)

Are we a diving club, or a training agency? At the moment I don't think we are really both, certainly at the HQ level. Running a branch is not easy, and I accept that HQ is no easier. I think we have here are the last remanants of a kind of institutional racism with regard to other divers and their qualifications. When I started diving, it was very common to know PADI, yet they probably teach more UK divers than the rest of us put together. At present, why should any of those divers join a BSAC club.

A case in point, there will be some divers leaving BSAC soon. They will be joining the SAA. They have been through GUE/DIR training. Now this training is not on BSAC's acceptance list (perhaps inertia), so they are going somewhere they will be accepted, and not have to restrict that training to what BSAC says is safe. Our loss.

Do we want to change this?

Adrian

PeteM

25-09-2003, 09:56

So does that meand that their training is not completely accepted 'as is'?

Exactly

Do we want to change this?

I think we've got to, this is exactly the sort of thing that is driving the experienced members away.

It does not help when its a known fact that senior figures in BSAC regularly dive out side of the SDP's and then say "it does not matter, its a private dive". Either its safe or its not.

Pete

neil carter

25-09-2003, 10:08

A case in point, there will be some divers leaving BSAC soon. They will be joining the SAA. They have been through GUE/DIR training. Now this training is not on BSAC's acceptance list (perhaps inertia), so they are going somewhere they will be accepted, and not have to restrict that training to what BSAC says is safe. Our loss.

Do we want to change this?

Adrian

Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!!

It is BSAC which HAS to change, not these divers.

Keep them in BSAC, keep them in a BSAC Club, WE CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE THESE ENTHUSIASTIC DIVERS. As I said in an earlier post, there is no point in topping up the bucket with uncommitted trainees, when these senior and committed divers take their skills and enthusiasms elsewhere - where would BSAC be if the Oscar Guegans and Peter Smalls of their time had simply pushed the envelope of their diving skills for their own advancement only, probably no BSAC as we know it today.

Neil Carter

A harrassed DO wondering how he's going to cope tonight, with too many Free Try-Divers, and not enough committeed NQIs to go round!!!

neil carter

25-09-2003, 10:21

Snip It does not help when it's a known fact that senior figures in BSAC regularly dive out side of the SDP's and then say "it does not matter, it's a private dive". Either it's safe or it's not.

But when I discussed just this point relevant to "divers leaving" problems within my own then Branch with our National Chairman at last year's AGM, his opinion was that there is virtually NO reason why all dives conducted by BSAC divers amongst themselves are not actually BSAC Club dives, and simply calling a dive a private dive to get round problems is somewhat disingenuous. Of course the other side of this coin is for a Branch, or over zealous DO to set up artificial or restrictive hoops for members to jump/dive through, and then saying that this or that dive or expedition cannot be included as a Club dive. Either way we lose enthusiastic "want to go diving" members.

Any comment Phil???

Neil Carter

andycarroll

25-09-2003, 10:24

Hi Adrian

I am one of those divers who have GUE training, as you may know, but I have no intention of leaving BSAC as the training I have received does not conflict with the Safe Diving Practices so far, even the use of the long hose does not conflict when I read the section for AAS.

I am completing Tech1 shortly and then I will be certified for normoxic trimix and 100% o2 and I will most likely want to use it at some point in the future. As it would be part of my trimix cert I thought it would be recognised as its all part of the 'specialist technical diving cert'(plus its HSE approved anyway) but the chances of me doing this on branch dives are remote at best and so extra insurance is a necessity anyway. However a nice 30/30 mix I would use on a branch dive, but that would still fall within the Safe Diving Practices.

At the moment I am BSAC advanced Nitrox and on the dives I do 100% o2 is not required and 50% suffices. I daresay in real life the use of 100% is extremely small unless you are talking Rebreather and trimix divers who do accelerated deco and for whom this rule addresses.

I can only think that it is Extended range divers who dive on air but have a nitrox ticket that will be restricted although from the many discussions I have had on other forums regarding o2 80% is the norm. For those the answer is to simply get trimix certified.

Given all of the above I really don't feel restricted by BSAC Safe Diving Practices at all, hence my initial post. I dive regularly with another BSAC diver from a different branch who is also GUE trained and he feels the same. I like BSAC immensely and enjoy the club. I am never short of buddies and have a great bunch of friends. All the courses I've been on are excellent and the training is second to none. Well, perhaps one IMHO :o)

Andy

PeteM

25-09-2003, 11:05

I am one of those divers who have GUE training, as you may know, but I have no intention of leaving BSAC as the training I have received does not conflict with the Safe Diving Practices so far, even the use of the long hose does not conflict when I read the section for AAS.

Actually there has been a lot of debate about this, Whilst you are free to use it the general feeling is you are not free to teach it.

I am completing Tech1 shortly and then I will be certified for normoxic trimix and 100% o2 and I will most likely want to use it at some point in the future. As it would be part of my trimix cert I thought it would be recognised as its all part of the 'specialist technical diving cert'(plus its HSE approved anyway) but the chances of me doing this on branch dives are remote at best and so extra insurance is a necessity anyway. However a nice 30/30 mix I would use on a branch dive, but that would still fall within the Safe Diving Practices.

Nope, you can dive trimix to 70m within the club but can not use 100% for deco, who ever you were trained by.

For those the answer is to simply get trimix certified.

No that does not work - see above

I like BSAC immensely and enjoy the club. I am never short of buddies and have a great bunch of friends. All the courses I've been on are excellent and the training is second to none. Well, perhaps one IMHO :o)

Totally agree however lots of experienced divers are leaving the club because of the restrictions, at the moment those restrictions don't effect me but they do effect people I know, some have left and some are considering it. These guys tend to be the NQI's/TO's/DO's of the branches - what future do we have without them?

Pete

Adrian Kelland

25-09-2003, 11:19

Andy

WL?

I am one of those divers who have GUE training, as you may know, but I have no intention of leaving BSAC as the training I have received does not conflict with the Safe Diving Practices so far, even the use of the long hose does not conflict when I read the section for AAS.

Correct, but under present BSAC training you won't be donating it will you? ;-) I just did my OWI, standard octo rig (like we expect the trainees to have blah blah blah). Instructor signals OOA, I've gone straight for my primary, donated it, gone for secondary -oops, its not on the bungee round my neck is it? :-)
Oh well.

I am completing Tech1 shortly and then I will be certified for normoxic trimix and 100% o2 and I will most likely want to use it at some point in the future. As it would be part of my trimix cert I thought it would be recognised as its all part of the 'specialist technical diving cert'(plus its HSE approved anyway) but the chances of me doing this on branch dives are remote at best and so extra insurance is a necessity anyway. However a nice 30/30 mix I would use on a branch dive, but that would still fall within the Safe Diving Practices.

At the moment I am BSAC advanced Nitrox and on the dives I do 100% o2 is not required and 50% suffices. I daresay in real life the use of 100% is extremely small unless you are talking Rebreather and trimix divers who do accelerated deco and for whom this rule addresses.

The point is that even if you were trained to use 100%, wanted to use 100%, you can't. It's that simple. If you use 100%, any incident arising, its a fun day for insurers and lawyers, but not for you. You are outside the SDPs and may well be on your own.

I can only think that it is Extended range divers who dive on air but have a nitrox ticket that will be restricted although from the many discussions I have had on other forums regarding o2 80% is the norm. For those the answer is to simply get trimix certified.

Simply, oh thats all right then. So do a TDI Trimix, but you will still be restricted by the SDPS.

Given all of the above I really don't feel restricted by BSAC Safe Diving Practices at all, hence my initial post. I dive regularly with another BSAC diver from a different branch who is also GUE trained and he feels the same. I like BSAC immensely and enjoy the club. I am never short of buddies and have a great bunch of friends. All the courses I've been on are excellent and the training is second to none. Well, perhaps one IMHO :o)

Andy

The issue here is that many ARE feeling restricted, perhaps you are not yet doing the kind of diving others wish to do. The plain fact is that experienced divers are leaving. If that includes a branch AD or AI once every year or two, this seriously impacts on a clubs ability to train DL, AD and SDCs. I would love to see some HQ stats on how many pass DL,AD each year, and if the total number of these grades is increasing. I suspect not, but am happy to be wrong in this.

Keith L, do such stats exist?

I don't know how active you are in running your branch Andy. You may be happy organising a few dives, you could be TO or even DO - I suspect not. When it comes to the additional time organising training, checking kit, filling cylinders, checking out the rib, towing it, doing the club accounts, AND trying to get a few dives for pleasure in AND then barriers are put in your way (perceived or otherwise), then its not a big step to thinking 'SOD IT ALL', leave and do the diving you have trained to do, without all that other agro. This is what we have to prevent.

Adrian

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

25-09-2003, 11:46

The issue here is that many ARE feeling restricted, perhaps you are not yet doing the kind of diving others wish to do. The plain fact is that experienced divers are leaving. If that includes a branch AD or AI once every year or two, this seriously impacts on a clubs ability to train DL, AD and SDCs. I would love to see some HQ stats on how many pass DL,AD each year, and if the total number of these grades is increasing. I suspect not, but am happy to be wrong in this.

Keith L, do such stats exist?

Yes these stats do exist, they are not that accurate due to the fact that we only learn about grade changes once a year at renewal time. We are not seeing a mass exodus of any one grade, just a steady decline across the board.

For you information the following ratios are from last nights statistics run -

FCD : AD : DL : SD : OD : Traineee
1 : 16 : 15 : 20 : 8 : 33

So for every FCD we have 33 trainees, we have slightly more AD's than we do DL's.

HTH

Keith L

Adrian Kelland

25-09-2003, 12:01

FCD : AD : DL : SD : OD : Traineee
1 : 16 : 15 : 20 : 8 : 33

So for every FCD we have 33 trainees, we have slightly more AD's than we do DL's.

I'm honestly surprised Keith, I would have thought DL would be more common than AD, can we get thse stats for the same time for the last 10? years? I wonder if the AD are older ADs, and SDs are finding it hard to progress to DL? Can we get info like 5ADs qualified, 3 left, 1 rejoined , net gain 1 AD?

The trainee ratio looks good, but as we know, not many will go on.

Adrian

matt

25-09-2003, 12:09

Hi Keith

I have another post in progress but do you have absolute figures for diver grades over say the last 10 years, I would like to see if there are any noticable trends such as a generation gap.

BTW anyone know the year AD changed to SDCs and the year Novice was scrapped?

Regards
Matt

Adrian Kelland

25-09-2003, 12:20

BTW anyone know the year AD changed to SDCs and the year Novice was scrapped?

I think AD went to SDCs in 1998.

Novice started in 1984, changed to Novice 1 and 2 in 1991, 1998 to Club Diver in branches Ocean Diver in schools, then 2002 for Ocean Diver.

Adrian

TerryH

25-09-2003, 13:34

So for every FCD we have 33 trainees, we have slightly more AD's than we do DL's.

IMO these stats are not the whole story.

Many of us did SDC's during DL and on the road to Advanced.
So by the time we had completed DL we already had well over
half Advanced completed. Took very little effort to get the
last few SDC's done + rescue/marshalling etc.
Result, more Advanced divers.

or

There was a lot of confusion when it was announced that DL was
to be dropped. Many Sport Divers decieded that they would hold
off on starting DL as they wanted to know what was coming after
it.
Result more Sports less DL.

Both points would/might affect the stats, so how about some
stats going back over 10 years. That would IMO be more
objective and give a better picture. We can then see what
effect the BSAC "tweaks" have made.

TerryH

andycarroll

25-09-2003, 14:06

Andy

WL?

Yep, but I'm much more lucid with my BSAC hat on. :o)

Didn't know that about the 100% and the SDP, the little passage didn't really make it clear, so I figured it as a bit of a catch all. Looks like its not.

I do help the club out a lot, assist in the pool, nitrox blending, helping organise dives etc. and I'm taking the OWI and TIE in the next couple of months, but like I said, our club is a recreational club, so these accelerated deco issues don't exist. Single cylinders and 20-30 mtr stuff. As usual I just assumed all BSAC clubs are like that. Platos cave and all that. I've never thought that I was in conflict with BSAC but if the long hose is not allowed then that would be a shame. I doubt that its actually true but I'll find out when I do mine :op

Andy

Adrian Kelland

25-09-2003, 14:27

:=Andy
:=
:=WL?
:=
Yep, but I'm much more lucid with my BSAC hat on. :o)

Didn't know that about the 100% and the SDP, the little passage didn't really make it clear, so I figured it as a bit of a catch all. Looks like its not.

I do help the club out a lot, assist in the pool, nitrox blending, helping organise dives etc. and I'm taking the OWI and TIE in the next couple of months, but like I said, our club is a recreational club, so these accelerated deco issues don't exist. Single cylinders and 20-30 mtr stuff. As usual I just assumed all BSAC clubs are like that. Platos cave and all that. I've never thought that I was in conflict with BSAC but if the long hose is not allowed then that would be a shame. I doubt that its actually true but I'll find out when I do mine :op

Andy

Andy

The long hose is not proscribed, but as the primary is not donated, and the long hose is usually the primary, the long hose has no advantage. And I know that Jack Ingle has demo'd it at his workshops. I don't know what guise he was demoing under though ;-)

I just had this discussion discussion on my OWI course. We are supposed to teach using equipment that the trainees are likely to use. A tautology really, as they tend to buy the type of kit the see us using and is widely available in the shops. Then we got onto cost. 'A wing and backplate can be ?100 cheaper than a Buddy BCD' I said. Ho hum.

Re Plato's Cave, yes there will be clubs and divers like this, but some of us just have our heads screwed on the wrong way round :-o

Good luck on TIE and OWI. I'm going to leave my PIE until next year, by which time I should have prepped for it. The reason I raised the point was that your post sounded a little 'I have no problem, I'm alright jack.' Many members take with no give, I can see this is not the case with you.

Adrian

TerryH

25-09-2003, 15:17

like I said, our club is a recreational club, so these accelerated deco issues don't exist. :=

You wait until you get the right demographic in your club.
We have a tight group of DL/Nitrox who have been working up
to 35-50m dives. They are now entering serious deco territory
and want to reduce there deco time (and of course save those
few precious litres).

What (as the club TO) do I offer them?
Yep, you guessed it TDI!

Yesterday we had Freshers Fair and signed up (I kid you not)
over 100 try-dives. Of these (plus existing divers)we will
sign up about a third. So the club will grow by another 40 or
so.

The turnover is so great that we could quite easily go to any
agency and be self-sufficient. So the question is why BSAC?
If we went the SAA/SDI/TDI route, would that be better for us?

After all we get no regional support. I recent tried (for about
a month) to contact them concerning a PRM course. When they
finally replied it was to tell me that it was cancelled due to
lack of interest. I had 7 divers available for that one!

As a result most SDC's are either run by us or we send guys to
Andark. We rarely use BSAC ITS and again use Andark for
IFC's/OWIC etc.

I have three main gripes with BSAC.

Recognition of other agency standards.
Matt has done this one far more eloquently then me, but the way
I see it is if we are prepared to accept an agency in the first
place, why not accept it's standards across the board?

Inefficiency.
We see the same questions asked again and again on these fora.
Yet not only are they not awnsered, no update, correction
information is added to the website. That really is criminal.
How much time is wasted by awnsering the same phone
call/email/letter again and again, when a simple definative
webpage would do the job? It adds to confusion and makes us
(those on the sharp end) get the flack.

Take the simple example of exam papers. Historicly they were
a bit ambiguous and have the odd bad question. Great, so we
have a new DTP and that means this will be a thing of the past.
Wrong. Its far worse. So bad in fact that the question papers
are now having to be re-written. BSAC say that they are
"examples" and that we should run our own exams anyway.
Very weak excuse. So what they are saying is that the exams are
written badly as an example of what? Bad exam writing!
Even examples need to be correct.

So again it is left to us to do the work of those who should
know better. And if we get "we are a volunteer & we dont have
time" Guess what. So are we. This week alone I will be spending
a total of 4 (yes 4) days on BSAC buisness. Is my time more
valuable then those at HQ? Absolutely not. Its AS valuable.
And if I work hard for BSAC, I expect them to do the same.
That's why I get extremly annoyed at the ineffeciencies with
the BSAC system. Amatuer/volunter seems to be an excuse to get
it wrong and not do the work.

We have a welath of talenet out there. Remember we have two
jobs. Our BSAC one and our daytime one. In many cases our
members have professional qualifications that far exceed
those done by the movers and shakers at HQ etc. Yet when work
is needed on simple proofreading, schedules, exam paper,
technical advice etc. etc. etc., do we ask these members.
Of course not that would mean involvoing the great unwashed and
dare I say, it removing some of the mysteries of the powerbase.

To be honest BSAC needs to stop patting itself on the back for
the past 50 years and think how it's going to manage the next.
The world is changing and if BSAC dont change with it, they
might end up as a curiosity on the Historical Diving Socieities
stand at the New PADI/TDI Dive Show (Formaly known as LIDS).

How about this as a simple solution to that example of the exam
papers. Ask for a dozen AI's to volunteer and send out the exam
database. Get them re-read and correct them and add any
comments. Pick the cream of the suggestions, alterations and
re-send. Keep whittling down until all 12 agree that this is
the tightest you can get it.

So you end up with co-operation and involvement of the members
(albeit AI's). An absolute correct and scrutinised database to
generate exams and no embarrased NQI's having to justify duff
exam papers to new impressionable BSAC members.

Best thing is that you get no more winges, rants etc. No more
post on this fora and yet another problem is removed from the
BSAC list. It isnt difficult it's absolutly common sense.

So please tell me why we dont do it and just trawl through the
entire system? Even if we start and it takes 2-3 years.
Eventually all issues would gradually be dealt with and
finaly we can concentrate on new issues rather than keep
stumbling on the old.

End of rant.
TerryH

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

25-09-2003, 16:14

Hi All

I could dig out stats for about the past four years (whilst I've been in office) but they aren't going to tell you much. If I get the time (it would take me a few hours!) I'll have a bash but don't wait on it, I have LOADS of other IT stuff on-the-go just now.

Matt asked about demographics, this is something that I looked at a few years back and there were no noticable trends then. The only trend over recent years has been the aging of the membership, which brings us back to changes in society where it is only the older generation who have the club ethos?

Also I'm loath to delve too much into this historical data, exactly what are you expecting to find? What conclusions do you think can be made? We're back to the usage of statistics, there's no great surges or drop-outs in there, we would have noticed, what we are seeing is a general decline in membership in line with other membership clubs.

The question is what do we do about it.

I'm not being evasive here, I've been looking at BSAC data for years and tearing it apart in different ways. My "feel" for the data tells me that there's nothing much of consequence in there, my problem is that it will take me hours to prove that :-)

Regards

Keith L

Andy Nye

25-09-2003, 16:34

A harrassed DO wondering how he's going to cope tonight, with too many Free Try-Divers, and not enough committeed NQIs to go round!!!

SIMPLE use the committed DIVE LEADER & SPORTS DIVER that dive's at every oppitunity, more experince on the ground so to speak.

Andy

neil carter

25-09-2003, 16:59

To be honest BSAC needs to stop patting itself on the back for
the past 50 years and think how it's going to manage the next.
The world is changing and if BSAC dont change with it, they
might end up as a curiosity on the Historical Diving Socieities
stand at the New PADI/TDI Dive Show (Formaly known as LIDS).

This is getting serious. Three times in one week now posts have suggested an apocalyptic end for BSAC if things don't change. We have been hearing how we seem to be bleeding away our "top talent" (for want of a better way of putting it) because Auntie BSAC seems to be stuck in the past, rather than embracing the future. We are also seeing how so many of those who are still here are expressing the most grave reservations about BSAC's and their own future, and where we go from here.

BSAC is here today because our pioneer members most assuredly did not look to the past, nor did they rest on their laurels. Not only did they embrace the future, and all it could offer, they dared to create their own future, and carried the rest of the amateur diving world along on their finstrokes. Read the history, BSAC virtually created the UK world of Sport diving from scratch. But today,we are no longer leading, we're being left behind, and to many other Agencies and divers we are being looked on at best as slightly dated and out of touch, and at worst as a laughing stock.

As has been asked so many times, why can't we simply recognise the Tri-mix, or Re-Breather qualifications awarded by other Training Agencies, or the kit configurations which are arguably safer or more practicable?? After all we expect the other Agencies to recognise our qualifications, why can't we recognise theirs?? Why can't we lead from the front, and introduce Nitrox as the natural gas of choice for Entry Level divers??

In my first Club, in the early and mid nineties, we turned over the entire membership "numbers" in a five year period, ie year 1 we had say 65 members, year 5 we had 65 members, and in the five years we added approx 65 new members, nothing unusual there, unfortunately, but at least the "hard core" of long term experienced members stayed the course. The problem BSAC is now facing is that we are seeing a significant loss of those "hard core" members, and they are the most difficult to create, or find. By definition they take the longest to train, because experience takes time, effort and commitment, and by natural selection and loss, there are far fewer of them anyway. As Matt said so very eloquently, these really are the people any Branch can least afford to lose.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but surely by putting up so many barriers to adventurous/technical diving, call it what you will, we are making that decison to look elsewhere for acceptance almost a foregone conclusion. If we don't heed this wake up call, the future could be dire indeed.

Neil Carter

aquabin

25-09-2003, 17:06

what we are seeing is a general decline in membership in line with other membership clubs

Keith et al, that may be because children are not welcomed into the branch until they are 'old-enough' to be regarded as adult in mind and boy, perhaps 16, by that time you (Bsac) have missed the boat they've gone off to Padi and been welcomed with open arms. No new blood, membership falls, Adults with children are shunned and the circle is complete.
By contrast my Archery club welcomes juniors and this year we have the biggest number of juniors (plus their parents) ever.
That is one issue that needs addressing, amongst many it would seem.
to quote Jerry
just a thought
Matt

TerryH

25-09-2003, 17:07

A harrassed DO wondering how he's going to cope tonight, with too many Free Try-Divers, and not enough committeed NQIs to go round!!!

Easy, send all your Sports and DL's on IFC's. You get a
shedload of ADI's.

We have 100 try-dives lined up, on 4 nights over 2 weeks.
If it wasnt for the ADI's the NQI's couldnt cope.

Look at it this way. You are doing try-dives so they can see if
it's for them and if they want join, Yes? So send ALL your
Sports divers onto an IFC. Again they can see if the Instructor
route is for them.

Once this gets engrained in club culture it becomes a natural
progression that once you have done sport you do the IFC.

TerryH

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

25-09-2003, 17:18

Keith et al, that may be because children are not welcomed into the branch...

Careful - you'll never get those worms back into the can!

Personally I think that you are right, it isn't the magic "fix all" (there isn't one) but I feel that this is another area that we should also be addressing. The changes in society are just one aspect, from our lapsed surveys we see change of circumstances as being a major factor. I certainly can't see it doing any harm.

But this has been tried several times now, every time it is what the majority who voted wanted and every time they have been denied not by the club system but by the rules of the Companies Act.

As everything else is in the melting pot then I think that this issue should be as well.

Keith L

Mike Halligan

25-09-2003, 18:56

Neil,

Well said. I watch debates such as this with horror, as they impel me to examine my own position, and conscience. I guess until 3 years ago, I saw myself as a potential member of the 'hard core' you describe. Then, very briefly, I became one - and swiftly learnt that life is much more tolerable on the periphery.

Now, I suppose I'm in the last chance saloon, gradually backing further and further away and all the while discovering that alternatives to BSAC are so much more accommodating, positive, egalitarian and plain fun. I see parallels with Team NZ, whose unforgivable treatment of their greatest assets left the "blazers" on the Board with huge amounts of egg on face.

Frankly, if the BSAC doesn't wake up and smell the coffee, the moment wil be lost - and it will be cocoa all round before we switch off the light. Life, it is said, is not a rehearsal. I do not have time to accept that the BSAC or the Branch does this or that ....
"because we always have" or
"because we tried that 30 years ago, it didn't work" or
"it was good enough for me" or
"because I said so".
Frankly, such talk devalues the diving grade and Instructor status I strived to attain and thereby it insults me and most of my friends. Most of all, I hate, detest and despise the fond self-deception that whoever shouts loudest at a club meet can thereby make Branch policy on the hoof.

Regards,

Mike

matt

25-09-2003, 19:26

Hi Keith

The post I made, with which there has been much agreement, was based purely on what I have observed in my own branch over the years. I never intended to fixate on the Technical Diving issue, though that debate has thrown up some very good general points. I personally think that the problems are more complex.

In my branch it is the experienced members that provide the services and benefits that convince new members to buy in. If you retain the former you attract the latter and if you can keep the latter they eventually become the former (follow that). Technical Diving is one aspect of retention which will help plug the hole in the bottom of the bucket as Neil puts it. But we still need to retain and progress the new joiners as well.

Fine lets plug the technical hole but it should not serve as a sop to distract from the greater underlying problems which Mike Halligan eludes to.

So what am I looking for in the HQ stats. Well simply to see if there is any commonality across the wider membership with what has happened to my branch. I suspect that the biggest problem we face is how people progress through the club. What do we offer to attract people, how much of a drain are they intially, how quickly can they start to contribute, what stands in the way of them contributing. In short how difficult is the path and where are the barriers.

Matt asked about demographics, this is something that I looked at a few years back and there were no noticable trends then. The only trend over recent years has been the aging of the membership, which brings us back to changes in society where it is only the older generation who have the club ethos?

I refuse to accept that our problems are an inevitable result of lifestyle change. I would not be chairing a club if I believed it was a losing battle. That club would not be growing if a need did not exist. Like I said before we have all the ingredients for dive clubs to prosper.

Look around at the Internet diving groups. It strikes me that diving with people you hardly know is ultimately unfullfilling yet people would rather do so than join a BSAC club. We can get these people back in clubs if we can offer locally whatever it is they are looking for over the net.

Also I'm loath to delve too much into this historical data, exactly what are you expecting to find?

I am looking for ripples. How do the demographics of the good years when BSAC were on the rise compare to those in latter years when BSAC have been on the fall.

What conclusions do you think can be made? We're back to the usage of statistics, there's no great surges or drop-outs in there, we would have noticed.

I graphed out the overall membership figures available at
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpubm4.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpubm4.htm</a>
The first thing that strikes me is BSAC weathered the major social changes of the 80s and early 90s pretty well. We managed to grow despite the recessions and the increasing pressures of modern life.

Between 1998 and 1999 we lost around 6000 members. It is a very noticeable step and appears to be the onset of the rot. We actually started losing members in 1996 but only in the hundreds and then bang 50,000 drops to 44,000. The numbers are a couple hundred for 99 and 2000 and then we lose a 1,000 in 01 and 2,000 in 02.

what we are seeing is a general decline in membership in line with other membership clubs.

I disagree. I think we are seeing the results of significant change in BSAC in 1998. The diver grade demographics overlaid on the membership figures should reveal how people progress and how that may have changed since 1998.

IMVHO Mike Halligan is right, we are on the brink. We have been visited by the ghost of Christmas Future. One possible outcome is we carry on as we are and BSAC becomes a marginalised shadow. Or we reverse this trend and make a place for ourselves in modern diving.

The question is what do we do about it.

Well I have an idea. I think I know what the problem is and it started in 1998. Certainly it is the one thing that causes more stress on club nights than anything else. It is the one thing which makes me question maintaining the momentum our branch has achieved in the last two years. I am not sure people are ready to hear it though.

More importantly is anyone on the NDC prepared to act?

Regards
Matt

matt

25-09-2003, 19:37

As everything else is in the melting pot then I think that this issue should be as well.

Sorry Matt / Keith

I think it is fair to say that children have been largely a constant in the last 50 years. To open that COW will merely distract.

Regards
Matt

Adrian Kelland

25-09-2003, 19:50

Well I have an idea. I think I know what the problem is and it started in 1998. Certainly it is the one thing that causes more stress on club nights than anything else. It is the one thing which makes me question maintaining the momentum our branch has achieved in the last two years. I am not sure people are ready to hear it though.

More importantly is anyone on the NDC prepared to act?

Regards
Matt
Matt

Well 1998 is one of the syllabus changes years, Novice 1 and 2 replaced by Club (and Ocean for schools) Diver. Was this also the time that training by instructor became stricter? (I can't remember.) Thus a raft of experienced divers were excluded from training. Harder to get trained and so on?

When did we drop Diver mag ;-)

Adrian

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

25-09-2003, 22:04

[Warning ? Geek Alert]

OK, let me explain the BSAC systems and why some of what you?re asking for is difficult. My main problem is that our membership systems are a legacy of the 1990?s, I?ve tried to replace them using volunteer effort and I failed, a new initiative is underway right now. But for now we have to make do with what we have.

The main problem that I have is that the BSAC systems are not historic, they record the situation as of now and not what it was n years ago. I do have copies of data going back several years but I would have to load them. I have however addressed this problem with a secondary tracking system, that DOES record detailed history and now records a daily statistical summary that will be of use in the future. But that doesn?t help much for the historic data.

I?ll now explain a couple of problems with the data that we have. The most difficult question to answer is ?how many members have you got??, the reason for that difficulty is in the way that we process renewals and the way that people renew. I can tell you how many fully paid up members that we have today but it?s a false figure. It will change tomorrow as people lapse, also branches are often late renewing, this month so far about 1,000 members that we had as lapsed have in fact renewed as the branch returns were sent in. So our actual membership is those paid up + those who will renew (guess) + those new members that the branches haven?t told us about! Grade are also a problem, we only get to learn about them at renewal time so if you get your DL a month after renewing you?re a SD on our system for the next eleven months. Over the years we have settled on the traditional figure of the number of members on our main database, it?s not exact but it?s a good an approximation as any and it is a constant measure.

I?ve got data here going back to 2000, I?ve got several snapshots taken over the past three years, I?m not sure how much further we can go back (we only keep back-ups for operational restore and recovery reasons), I have immediate access to the latest data if I need it. So I can give you detailed chapter and verse going back to 2000, before that I?m not sure whether we have the raw data. However, there is a history file within this raw data that I might be able to reconstruct (with difficulty). I must say that I have never been able to verify the often quoted figure of 50,000, I think we peaked at around 48,000 or 49,000. I know where that 50,000 figure comes from, there was nothing sinister in its use, but unless you fully understand the technical operation of the systems (nobody at HQ does fully and I?m the only one on Council who understands it) then I can understand where it comes from. So the figures quoted back in 1998/1999 were what people firmly believed to be correct, it?s only the pedants like me (I?m a professional Database Administrator, I understand data) who would know the deficiencies.

I?ll have a go, I?ll see what I can do, but you?re talking days here (at least!). Please understand that some figures are commercially sensitive and have contractual implications, I may measure in slightly different ways, so I will not be publishing full and detailed breakdowns. Under no circumstances will raw data or personal information be divulged, the legal obligation under the DPA falls on me personally.

So I?ll do what I can but be aware of the limitations ?
1. We might not have the raw data going back n years
2. For the reasons that I have given the data is an approximation at best
3. I am limited on the detail that I can divulge
4. It?s bl**dy difficult to get at :-)
Also be aware of the limitations of statistics as the sample size gets smaller, if you?re concentrating on experienced members then only 1 in 3 members holds a grade of DL and above. I?m still not convinced that you?ll learn anything from it, we want to be looking forward and not back!

Regards

Keith L

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

25-09-2003, 22:07

matt

26-09-2003, 02:50

[Warning ? Geek Alert]

Thankyou for the explanation Keith. I understand that you can't give me what you do not have or are not at liberty to divulge.

I can tell you how many fully paid up members that we have today but it?s a false figure. It will change tomorrow as people lapse

The timescales I am interested in only require annual figures. Inaccuracy should be fairly constant.

I?ve got data here going back to 2000

Probably not far enough to establish what I am looking for. The significant event was in 1998 unless there was a gross inaccuracy that was corrected in that year.

I?ll have a go, I?ll see what I can do, but you?re talking days here (at least!).

One thing I have learned from trying to run a branch. If people can help you, you appreciate it. So do what you can I and will thank you, there is no reason to defend what you can not do or do not want to do. Your a volunteer remember ;-)

Figures from the last 3 years would be useful but unfortunately it does not cover the point at which things changed.

4. It?s bl**dy difficult to get at :-)

Also be aware of the limitations of statistics as the sample size gets smaller, if you?re concentrating on experienced members then only 1 in 3 members holds a grade of DL and above. I?m still not convinced that you?ll learn anything from it, we want to be looking forward and not back!

I am concerned with what has happened across the board, from N1/CD/OD to FC and ACI to NI. I am concerned with progression through the grades.

I have a systematic approach to break fix problem solving. I believe BSAC broke. The very first question I ask is "what changed?"

Regards
Matt