Can Ocean Divers dive alone?

[LHG]

What is the minimum qualification my buddy and I need to go diving alone on regulated sites (e.g. Stoney Cove, Vivian e.t.c.)?

We are currently training towards Ocean Diver and our training material says that once we have obtained Ocean Diver, we can dive to 20m under the supervision of a Dive Manager, however, I have heard that it is okay for us to go alone to regulated sites. Is that correct or would we have to wait until we are Sports Diver?

:confused:

[brooksy]

i'm not a bsac diver but i would have thought that it would be ok, as the ocean diver is equivalent to an advanced course from another organisation such as PADI/SSI etc.

[bythesea]

On club dives no but of two ocean divers go to a beach/quarry and don't tell anyone no one will stop them.

[johnskerry]

I would check with your DO if I were you.

When I was DO the answer would have been NO for the scenario you have described

[Edward]

What is the minimum qualification my buddy and I need to go diving alone on regulated sites (e.g. Stoney Cove, Vivian e.t.c.)?

We are currently training towards Ocean Diver and our training material says that once we have obtained Ocean Diver, we can dive to 20m under the supervision of a Dive Manager, however, I have heard that it is okay for us to go alone to regulated sites. Is that correct or would we have to wait until we are Sports Diver?

:confused:

Your training material is correct, however, it’s meeting the Dive Manager bit you need clarification on.

Stoney Cove does not provide Dive Manger surrogates for you, you would have to provide your own.

Regards

[Richard Whitcombe]

i'm not a bsac diver but i would have thought that it would be ok, as the ocean diver is equivalent to an advanced course from another organisation such as PADI/SSI etc.

No it's not. Its an entry level qualification like open water.


As far as the original question goes, under a BSAC framework it has to be under supervision of a dive marshall (err manager. they renamed it for no reason). That means you'd need to take one with you. On-site staff don't count.
HOWEVER, you're qualified divers, there are no laws and you can wander off wherever you want and dive with whoever you want in the UK or abroad. The only thing you wouldn't have then is the BSAC 3rd party insurance which isnt THAT useful at your level and in the UK anyway.

[Edward]

No it's not. Its an entry level qualification like open water.
Correct


As far as the original question goes, under a BSAC framework it has to be under supervision of a dive marshall (err manager. they renamed it for no reason).
The term manager is what the individual should do doing, marshall doesn't cut it That means you'd need to take one with you. On-site staff don't count. Correct
HOWEVER, you're qualified divers, there are no laws and you can wander off wherever you want and dive with whoever you want in the UK or abroad. Not correct - in France for example it is illegal to dive unless you hold the appropriate qualifications. The only thing you wouldn't have then is the BSAC 3rd party insurance which isnt THAT useful at your level and in the UK anyway. Take that advice at your risk.

Regards

[Richard Whitcombe]

Correct



The term manager is what the individual should do doing, marshall doesn't cut it

Its a pointless rename. A completely worthless change to the syllabus. A phrase that was perfectly adequate replaced. No idea why idiot dreamed it up and thought it important enough to actually waste time doing.


Correct Not correct - in France for example it is illegal to dive unless you hold the appropriate qualifications. Take that advice at your risk.

Local laws always override. But they're qualified divers. They dont NEED BSAC to dive after that.

As for the insurance thing, if they're diving abroad they NEED their own insurance as the BSAC one is 3rd party and useless. It wont cover them for any injury at all. I see a lot of people came and go in Egypt with "oh im BSAC so im covered" not realising if they get hurt they're actually not covered at all.
Its of very very limited use unless they start supervising or teaching in the UK.

[Gareth]

What is the minimum qualification my buddy and I need to go diving alone on regulated sites (e.g. Stoney Cove, Vivian e.t.c.)?

We are currently training towards Ocean Diver and our training material says that once we have obtained Ocean Diver, we can dive to 20m under the supervision of a Dive Manager, however, I have heard that it is okay for us to go alone to regulated sites. Is that correct or would we have to wait until we are Sports Diver?

:confused:


LHG

As has been explained by others, correctly, the BSAC Ocean Diver qualification requires you to have a Dive Manager present.

As has also been explained, you 'could' dive at your own risk without a dive manager present.
The issue is about would you be allowed, risk, & is it sensible.

There is potential for privately managed sites to refuse you access on the basis that they only allow qualified divers, or divers undertraining with appropriately qualified supervision, & require you to dive within the limitations of your qualification. So you may or maynot be able to dive at Stoney, dependent on how hard a line they wish to take.

You 'could' go diving at St Abbs or Swanage Pier without a dive manager. These sites are public areas. However, you would be diving outside of the BSAC (& branch) recommendations/level of qualification. The question is, is it sensible?

You have gone to some effort to gain a diving qualification.
You 'could' have gone diving with a friend, without any diving qualification or knowledge. The question is, would this have been sensible?

The issues relate to safety & knowledge.
Is it safe to dive without any training, is it safer to dive with a little training, is it safer still to dive with a mix of training & experience?

In general, diver training is delivered on the basis of teaching basic survival skills at entry level, building experience, then expanding on the basic skills by adding new skill & knowledge, & expanding the basic survival skills & experience with new environments/complexity/risk.

Different agencies have slightly different approaches.
PADI teaches an opening qualification with the expectation that the student will pay for further tuition on further courses. In general they don't have a club structure, they hope you will return to a school & either dive with the school (under the supervision of a Divemaster). Or pay for the next course. However, PADI openwater (an approximate equivalent to Ocean Diver,) does not require any supervision, although there are strict recommendations on only diving in an environment similar to the one you where trained in (as OD) & that you get a familiarization of any new site prior to diving it.

BSAC base their teaching mostly on a club structure, thus their is an expectation that you will have mentoring as well as tuition. i.e. as an Ocean Diver, there will be someone with more experience to offer advice on any given dive. Generally the BSAC do not assume you are a fully qualified independent diver until you have achieved the Sports Diver Qualification, again at Sports Diver there are still restrictions.

Personally, I would not recommend that two inexperienced OD's dive together especially in UK conditions. When two OD's are diving together I would ensure that they are diving a site they know well that conditions are suitable, they have received a comprehensive briefing about the site & what actions they are to take if they experience any difficulties. That they are comfortable with the proposed dive plan, & with each other as buddies. i.e. I would be acting like a dive manager ensuring that they have a safe sensible plan & are comfortable with the proposed dive & that I am happy with the proposed dive!

I would also suggest that if you where to dive without a dive manager you are likely to generate some friction between yourself & the branch, particularly the Diving Officer & the branch instructors. Why not offer to take someone with you to act as the Dive Manager.

Please note that generally UK sites are not benign, especially during the winter months. Even the inland sites poses risks. The recomendations of the BSAC & branch are there to ensure you have a pleasent positive experience. Not a traumatic or fatal one!


Gareth

[Edward]

As for the insurance thing, if they're diving abroad they NEED their own insurance as the BSAC one is 3rd party and useless. It wont cover them for any injury at all. I see a lot of people came and go in Egypt with "oh im BSAC so im covered" not realising if they get hurt they're actually not covered at all.
Its of very very limited use unless they start supervising or teaching in the UK.
You right the BSAC cover is 3rd Party only and doesn't cover personal injury, that's what dive travel insurance is for.

You wrong in comparing the two as they are different products, like apple and oranges.

Regards

[Richard Whitcombe]

You right the BSAC cover is 3rd Party only and doesn't cover personal injury, that's what dive travel insurance is for.

You wrong in comparing the two as they are different products, like apple and oranges.

Regards

Rubbish. 3rd party is going to be of exactly zero use to anyone abroad as they're going to need their own in addition in the first place. They aren't in a supervisory role so its going to be of little use IN the UK either.

I know of many people going abroad diving thinking they're insured when in fact they aren't due to their confusion thinking "bsac insurance" is diving insurance.

[Maria]

Perhaps the key question should be why would you want to? If you ask around your branch, then hopefully you'll find some more experience divers who are happy to go along, and that solves your problem.

[Richard Whitcombe]

Perhaps the key question should be why would you want to? If you ask around your branch, then hopefully you'll find some more experience divers who are happy to go along, and that solves your problem.

Or maybe they just fancy getting together and going diving without being made to jump through hoops as so often happens in clubs ?

[LHG]

Perhaps the key question should be why would you want to? If you ask around your branch, then hopefully you'll find some more experience divers who are happy to go along, and that solves your problem.

Thanks to everyone for your replys.

The reason I asked is because we are going abroad in September. We have got 3 or 4 more dives to complete our Ocean Diver and are hoping to be heading towards Sports Diver by the time we go on holiday. Before going, we would like to get as much experience as possible in places that we are familiar with so that we can fully enjoy our holiday abroad. However, a few comments have been made, by members from our club, that once the season starts, we may struggle to find anyone who will be willing to take us diving, as they will want to go on dives beyond our limits (this will also slow up our Sports Diver training). If there is no one to take us, how can we gain experience?

[LHG]

Thanks to everyone for your replys.

The reason I asked is because we are going abroad in September. We have got 3 or 4 more dives to complete our Ocean Diver and are hoping to be heading towards Sports Diver by the time we go on holiday. Before going, we would like to get as much experience as possible in places that we are familiar with so that we can fully enjoy our holiday abroad. However, a few comments have been made, by members from our club, that once the season starts, we may struggle to find anyone who will be willing to take us diving, as they will want to go on dives beyond our limits (this will also slow up our Sports Diver training). If there is no one to take us, how can we gain experience?

Further to my post above. I actually have to travel to a BSAC club 30mins away, which doesn't sound too bad, apart from the fact there is one literally 2 streets away from my house, but the blooming people wouldn't reply to any of my numerous e-mails or phone calls! I'm beggining to wonder why I don't just go with PADI and then I can dive wherever and whenever I want to!:mad:

[Richard Whitcombe]

Thanks to everyone for your replys.

The reason I asked is because we are going abroad in September. We have got 3 or 4 more dives to complete our Ocean Diver

Have you only done 1 possibly 2 dives then?! Ocean diver is a 4 or 5 dive course.

[LHG]

Have you only done 1 possibly 2 dives then?! Ocean diver is a 4 or 5 dive course.

Hi Richard,

We've done 2 dives on one day so far. We were meant to go again this weekend but no one could take us.

I'm not suggesting that we go diving alone now - that would be foolish - but once we've completed the training and logged a few dives and are familiar with the dive sites I was wondering if we could go alone if no one could take us:)

[Fred]

BSAC base their teaching mostly on a club structure, thus their is an expectation that you will have mentoring as well as tuition.
Gareth

A good thing about the BSAC is that it is club based.


Further to my post above. I actually have to travel to a BSAC club 30mins away, which doesn't sound too bad, apart from the fact there is one literally 2 streets away from my house, but the blooming people wouldn't reply to any of my numerous e-mails or phone calls!

A bad thing about the BSAC is that it is club based.

[Richard Whitcombe]

Hi Richard,

We've done 2 dives on one day so far. We were meant to go again this weekend but no one could take us.

I'm not suggesting that we go diving alone now - that would be foolish - but once we've completed the training and logged a few dives and are familiar with the dive sites I was wondering if we could go alone if no one could take us:)

If you've done you have 2 or 3 dives left to do. It COULD be done in just 1 day if people can be bothered.
Once qualified you can just go diving. The certification will be recognised pretty much anywhere.

[Edward]

Thanks to everyone for your replys.

The reason I asked is because we are going abroad in September. We have got 3 or 4 more dives to complete our Ocean Diver and are hoping to be heading towards Sports Diver by the time we go on holiday. Before going, we would like to get as much experience as possible in places that we are familiar with so that we can fully enjoy our holiday abroad. However, a few comments have been made, by members from our club, that once the season starts, we may struggle to find anyone who will be willing to take us diving, as they will want to go on dives beyond our limits (this will also slow up our Sports Diver training). If there is no one to take us, how can we gain experience?
Now we come the the real problem.

I despare at Branches that offer training, but are not prepared to put the effort in to complete the open water bits.

May not be of much use to you, depending on where you live; see here (http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=3615&sectionTitle=2011+S+Scotland+Redional+Training) for the South Scotland training sessions we have now been running every month for 4 years, the next is 12th Feb (http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=152806&postcount=3).

Regards

[LHG]

If you've done you have 2 or 3 dives left to do. It COULD be done in just 1 day if people can be bothered.
Once qualified you can just go diving. The certification will be recognised pretty much anywhere.

Thanks. That's good to hear. I think they are looking at 2 dives per lesson and so it should take about a month as we can only dive on weekends. :)

[LHG]

Now we come the the real problem.

I despare at Branches that offer training, but are not prepared to put the effort in to complete the open water bits.

May not be of much use to you, depending on where you live; see here (http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=3615&sectionTitle=2011+S+Scotland+Redional+Training) for the South Scotland training sessions we have now been running every month for 4 years, the next is 12th Feb (http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=152806&postcount=3).

Regards

Thanks Edward. It's quite far away, but is looking quite appealing hehe :)

[Ron MacRae]

The reason I asked is because we are going abroad in September. We have got 3 or 4 more dives to complete our Ocean Diver and are hoping to be heading towards Sports Diver by the time we go on holiday. Before going, we would like to get as much experience as possible in places that we are familiar with so that we can fully enjoy our holiday abroad. However, a few comments have been made, by members from our club, that once the season starts, we may struggle to find anyone who will be willing to take us diving, as they will want to go on dives beyond our limits (this will also slow up our Sports Diver training). If there is no one to take us, how can we gain experience?

If thats reallythe case then I don't think much of your club. I would expect them to arrange a number of dives that ANY club member can do. Yes there will be some you can't but there should still be many you can.

Also if you're thinking of diving on holiday go with a professional outfit. You can quite correctly dive, as ODs, with a PADI Divemaster leading your group and acting as the BSAC Dive Manager. As others have said discuss with your D.O. He should be able to sort this out.

Ron.

[MikeTonge]

Thanks Edward. It's quite far away, but is looking quite appealing hehe :)

Where are you based and someone maybe able to help out?

[Maria]

When I posed my "why would you want to?" question, I was assuming that there would be others in your branch who are happy to do these sorts of dives on a regular basis.
I suggest you tell us all where you're based, and see who on here is local and happy to accompany you on dives.
I'm based in the North West, and someone from my branch can usually be found at Eccleston Delph or Capernwray most weekends.

[Davepazzer]

LHG

Please don't run before you can walk, the BSAC Club system is great.
when you get to know the members in your Club a little better you will be able to go on more dives.
Some of the Dives in our Club are booked 12 months in advance, Some for more experienced divers and some for all levels.

As a D.O myself I have to try and ensure that all levels of divers are being catered for on Dive trips, training, local dives, SDC's etc.

In your case even when you finish your Ocean diver course I would still try and get you to dive with more experienced divers to build up your skill levels at various different dive sites.
The majority of training dives are done in inland waters at this time of year so you would still have to experience diving in the sea.

Cheers
Dave

[LHG]

When I posed my "why would you want to?" question, I was assuming that there would be others in your branch who are happy to do these sorts of dives on a regular basis.
I suggest you tell us all where you're based, and see who on here is local and happy to accompany you on dives.
I'm based in the North West, and someone from my branch can usually be found at Eccleston Delph or Capernwray most weekends.

Thanks very much for your post. I am in the North Wales area and Eccleston Delph and Capernwray are within travelling distance. I believe people from our club occasionally go to those sites but only in the week (and unfortunately we can't get the time off work). Do you have a contact e-mail address for someone from your branch so that I can see whether they would mind taking us, once we have obtained Ocean Diver? My e-mail address is l.h.baker@hotmail.co.uk. Many thanks for your help.

[Richard Mason]

Thanks to everyone for your replys.

The reason I asked is because we are going abroad in September. We have got 3 or 4 more dives to complete our Ocean Diver and are hoping to be heading towards Sports Diver by the time we go on holiday. Before going, we would like to get as much experience as possible in places that we are familiar with so that we can fully enjoy our holiday abroad. However, a few comments have been made, by members from our club, that once the season starts, we may struggle to find anyone who will be willing to take us diving, as they will want to go on dives beyond our limits (this will also slow up our Sports Diver training). If there is no one to take us, how can we gain experience?

Depending on where you're going of course, but there are plenty of dive centres overseas that you can do or complete your SD training with and have a good time into the bargain - you'd knock it over in just a few days, especially if you'vedone most of the lessons already and signed off in your training record; I'm at the arse end of Australia with no BSAC clubs within a bulls roar (although I'm now a member of Melbourne BSAC, which is 600km away including 400km of stormy water). I'm heading to Thailand to do my DL training in June, quite simply because it's quicker, easier, cheaper & more practical than flying back & forth to Melbourne over several long weekends to do it with them.

[littlerattle]

after reading the above, and the fact you really need a dive manager to dive under BSAC rulings could a ocean diver join BSAC as a personal member and if the can are they being mis-sold when fact is they cannot dive without a dive manager and if they do the are void of insurance?

[Nigel Hewitt]

after reading the above, and the fact you really need a dive manager to dive under BSAC rulings could a ocean diver join BSAC as a personal member and if the can are they being mis-sold when fact is they cannot dive without a dive manager and if they do the are void of insurance?
I don't see that. You can join BSAC Direct with no qualifications at all and a lot of the 'benefits' don't apply to you.
I don't think that is 'mis-selling'.

I think there is a constant misapprehension about the insurance. BSAC insurance isn't there to protect you but to protect BSAC. It is there to be a lightning conductor to soak up any blame claims before they zap right back to top level. I'm not sure if an OD can find themselves in a 'duty of care' situation where somebody would have a claim against them. This stuff is designed to protect BSAC from errors by dive-managers and instructors who would otherwise have to offer the Nuremberg defence.

[Ron MacRae]

after reading the above, and the fact you really need a dive manager to dive under BSAC rulings could a ocean diver join BSAC as a personal member and if the can are they being mis-sold when fact is they cannot dive without a dive manager and if they do the are void of insurance?

I don't think there is any mis-selling here. We tell people up front. Most are quite relieved that there is an ongoing program of training once qualified and that they will be eased gently into independance.

Of course if you completed the course and then couldn't go diving that would be a problem. That needs to be resolved by the diver and the DO.

Ron.

[littlerattle]

That needs to be resolved by the diver and the DO
this is the bit I personally get confussed about, being a sports diver myself I can go diving away from the club with another of the same grade, go to any mark or a new venue or wreck without comment.
Push that into a club text and the DO has a duty to safe guard the people whom he is dive managing, so in this case the dive to a new site could not take place - unless an advance diver or someone with diving experiance of the mark / venue is there to manage the event.
Is this correct or another club rule made up to protect the club/ branch?

[TrevorB]

Edward is quite right and has provided an elegant explanation of the limitations of an Ocean Diver with respect to requiring a dive manager

Having trained numerous divers to this level and beyond and also seen cross over’s from PADI Open Water

I believe we provide better training at this level as it includes limited use of Nitrox and more often than not dry suit skills

It’s sad that we then apply this restriction and limit BSAC Ocean divers in a way that PADI does not limit it’s Open Water Divers

I am sure it adds to safe diving practices, but does tie are hands a little when trying to recruit people into training with BSAC

[TrevorB]

Now we come the the real problem.

I despare at Branches that offer training, but are not prepared to put the effort in to complete the open water bits.

Regards

This is not the first time I have heard this Edward, If they are training branches then they should train, otherwise own up and accept that they are not a training branch. They devaluate BSAC training and tar others with the same brush

[GaryC]

It’s sad that we then apply this restriction and limit BSAC Ocean divers in a way that PADI does not limit it’s Open Water Divers

I am sure it adds to safe diving practices, but does tie are hands a little when trying to recruit people into training with BSAC

When HQ wrote BSAC OD Course, they gave it equivalence with PADI OW. The previous pre-SD courses never did this. They created a fudge to allow 2 OD to dive together (Like PADI) but with a Dive Manager present AND with the descretion of the DO.

The main problem is that (and the forums are littered with Examples) alot of DOs would NOT be seen dead letting 2 OD dive together even with a Dive Manager on site.

So in answer, can 2 OD dive together at a spot where Sport diving takes place, in similar or better conditions to which the divers was trained. (Like PADI) then the answer is NO.

Can 2 OD dive together (as above) under the supervision of a DO appointed Dive Manager, then the answer is going to be probably Not. A lot of DO's even frown on a OD and a SD diving together.

What BSAC is showing to the outside is a little misleading and you don't really discover the lie of the land til you actually join a club and try to go diving on your own.

It is about time the ruling was changed to either yes you can or no you cant.

As others have said, get your SD as soon as you can and you are covered.

Gary

[littlerattle]

Gary made a point that get to SD as soon as possible, cant see what that changes you still need a dive manager of Dive leader status and above to be with you to make this a dive any club DO would be happy to sign off.
It is not until you reach a grade above sports that you get the nod.

[TrevorB]

When HQ wrote BSAC OD Course, they gave it equivalence with PADI OW. The previous pre-SD courses never did this. They created a fudge to allow 2 OD to dive together (Like PADI) but with a Dive Manager present AND with the descretion of the DO.

The main problem is that (and the forums are littered with Examples) alot of DOs would NOT be seen dead letting 2 OD dive together even with a Dive Manager on site.

So in answer, can 2 OD dive together at a spot where Sport diving takes place, in similar or better conditions to which the divers was trained. (Like PADI) then the answer is NO.

Can 2 OD dive together (as above) under the supervision of a DO appointed Dive Manager, then the answer is going to be probably Not. A lot of DO's even frown on a OD and a SD diving together.

What BSAC is showing to the outside is a little misleading and you don't really discover the lie of the land til you actually join a club and try to go diving on your own.

It is about time the ruling was changed to either yes you can or no you cant.

As others have said, get your SD as soon as you can and you are covered.

Gary


Thanks Gary
Yes I thought that might be the case, as the previous grade Nov II did not allow this and retained it when it became club diver (don’t you hate that name)
but as Ocean Diver was previously taught exclusively in BSAC schools I did wonder if this new limited freedom was inherited from schools, as a blanket no would be hard to sell in a commercial world

As a DO I would love to be able to make that decision, should we not ask DO's rather than guess at what we think they would like
I know our branch members and their limitations
Local knowledge is better than blanket one rule fits all

Would this not be a good motion for BSAC to revise this
and take the brakes off recruitment
DO’s could retain the rule in branch if they wanted to
but not hold the rest of us back as was the case when we wanted to reduce the age limit to 12

[Ron MacRae]

That needs to be resolved by the diver and the DO
this is the bit I personally get confussed about, being a sports diver myself I can go diving away from the club with another of the same grade, go to any mark or a new venue or wreck without comment.
Push that into a club text and the DO has a duty to safe guard the people whom he is dive managing, so in this case the dive to a new site could not take place - unless an advance diver or someone with diving experiance of the mark / venue is there to manage the event.
Is this correct or another club rule made up to protect the club/ branch?

1) ODs can only dive with the specific approval of the DO with a DM he is happy with.

2) SDs, like everyone in BSAC, are supposed to follow what is written in Safe Diving as regards DM cover etc.

What you do as an individual is, as always, up to you, but according to Safe Diving even a DL can't take people to an unknown site.

Ron.

[Mark]

1)

What you do as an individual is, as always, up to you, but according to Safe Diving even a DL can't take people to an unknown site.



Yes, because as far as BSAC is concerned you are not a fully qualified diver untill you've become an Advanced Diver.

A grade that is practically impossible to achieve in some branches.

:rolleyes:

[Richard Whitcombe]

Yes, because as far as BSAC is concerned you are not a fully qualified diver untill you've become an Advanced Diver.

A grade that is practically impossible to achieve in some branches.

:rolleyes:

Im cynically wondering if that particular clause stays in as a desperate attempt to preserve the AD grade and get people to do it. The course itself offers nothing you cant get as a dive leader and normal experience gained through diving so really AD has no attraction at all for lots of people as it doesnt change anything. The only benefit is they can dive somewhere new (where in reality chances are they've been safely planning and diving in new sites for years already without problem).
That and as you say in lots of branches and even regions getting AD is practically impossible, especially in a sensible time frame.

[TrevorB]

No we don't have any AI's either
so AD is difficult I agree, but for the two lectures you can usually borrow an AI from region we did

Was life not simple when instructors could sign off upto and including their grade

[Richard Whitcombe]

1) ODs can only dive with the specific approval of the DO with a DM he is happy with.

That's if they want to stay within a BSAC framework. If anything it could force them out.
Has anyone ever heard of ODs being refused a charter boat space, inland site entry or diving abroad where they've turned up with another OD and wanted to just go diving?

[Ron MacRae]

That's if they want to stay within a BSAC framework. If anything it could force them out.
Has anyone ever heard of ODs being refused a charter boat space, inland site entry or diving abroad where they've turned up with another OD and wanted to just go diving?

Don't think most boats/sites even ask.
All they say is you must dive within the guidlines/rules of you diving qualifications.
When the effluent hits the air movement device your on your own.....:)

Ron.

[littlerattle]

if your an ocean diver who has just spent months completing the OD and now you want to go diving, you may be a little afraid to ask for more, as most of the people who have taught you are far more advanced and enjoy deeper diving than you can undertake. So to ask a volunteer as in a DO or advanced diver to book a weekend up doing something they are not interested in could be very hard work, of course I never had this problem within our branch:rolleyes:
my advise is to keep asking and make sure the branch support and provide the dive time you want, they must or they lose another member.
On my intake 8 started 1 finished. Things have changed since then and the branch is very supportive to all divers at all levels.

[Gav S]

The "club diver" era is well before my time so I do not know the details and rationale for any changes that were made to the DTP, however, it occurs to me that Club Diver seems to well describe the OD qualification in that it cleary indicates that diving will depend on the presence and support of "the club" (in the form of the DM on the day, DO oversight, etc, etc).

It is not uncommon for the forum to see threads that revolve around an apparent gap between the ideal theoretical BSAC club/training model and the reality of individuals' distinctly varied experience of that system. I know it is a perennial issue but I really do think that a fresh approach to ensuring uniformity of standards or quality control would serve BSAC well. I must say, I am increasingly dissapointed to hear of individuals finding it unneccessarily difficult to progress training (or the careful and supportive mentoring which is alleged to be a backbone of the club system).

I have no problem with branches setting themselves up as they please, however, perhaps it is time to consider identifying "DTP training branches" and requiring some additional standards in those cases?

[GaryC]

Thanks Gary
Yes I thought that might be the case, as the previous grade Nov II did not allow this and retained it when it became club diver (don’t you hate that name)
but as Ocean Diver was previously taught exclusively in BSAC schools I did wonder if this new limited freedom was inherited from schools, as a blanket no would be hard to sell in a commercial world

As a DO I would love to be able to make that decision, should we not ask DO's rather than guess at what we think they would like
I know our branch members and their limitations
Local knowledge is better than blanket one rule fits all

Would this not be a good motion for BSAC to revise this
and take the brakes off recruitment
DO’s could retain the rule in branch if they wanted to
but not hold the rest of us back as was the case when we wanted to reduce the age limit to 12

If I remember correctly OD was piloted in the schools first. But the spec would have been fully under the control of HQ. I am sure at the time there was a hue and cry about new grade having OW equivalence but with PADI you could go diving on your own, with BSAC you could not. I think that is where the fudge came in.

It really should be the DO that reviews the situation. As whatever happens the circumstances of the case (damn those collision regs) will be different. In a situation where most/alot PADI divers will gain their quals abroad and in holiday destination, it may well be safe to allow 2 OW divers on their own to dive. Where the conditions are easy etc. In the UK that is not the same. Even Capeernwray/Stoney takes more than basic level of understanding. i.e dry suit/DSMB etc.
However DO approval has always been a lottery as they don't get a lot of help in making the decision. I guess alot don't take on the risk.


As it stands OD is more expensive than OW (at the schools I checked) and more restrictive (apart from 20metre limit) and harder to locate places that do the course.

Effectively what you are saying is that if you go down the club route (OD) then you have limitations. If you do the School Route (PADI OW) then you can dive with your friends as a OW. Why not then just recommend PADI OW, then BSAC Sport Diver.

Gary

[Richard Whitcombe]

Why not then just recommend PADI OW, then BSAC Sport Diver.

Gary

I know many people that do recommend that. Learn to dive in days not months, then when you're a qualified diver and time isn't as much of an issue start plodding through a sports diver cause. The advantage of this is you can still go diving whenever you feel like it while waiting.

[TrevorB]

Why not then just recommend PADI OW, then BSAC Sport Diver.

Gary

Because we are a BSAC branch, we have invested in an O2 analyser
dry suits and want to run Ocean Diver

Please don't chase people away to PADI, let’s start them off from scratch on OD
Its more comprehensive than OW (I.e. Nitrox)
It's better suited to UK diving
It often includes Dry suit training
and in branch its less expensive than PADI OW

All we need is that one rule sorting and we can then compete with OW
and do what we are good at turning out Ocean Divers and above

This year I hope to sign off my 100 Ocean Diver

[TrevorB]

Learn to dive in days not months, .

Takes two weekends to learn OD with our branch
Two half classroom days
Two half pool days
one dry suit evening
one openwater weekend

[The Rocketeer]

In the heady days of club diver when everybody called it novice 2 under a new name, it was incredibly difficult to even get a dive in to complete the training. It would appear that very little has changed, apart from the grey area about CD/OD's diving together has now been made even more restrictive.

With the training complete the serious diving was done by those above you and you were told. "You can't come on these trips because you aren't experienced enough". Yet nobody wanted to dive with a newbie, let alone DM for them, thus catch 22 and a severely brassed off CD/OD sat in Limbo who can't move onwards to the next level because they dont have the experience and cant gain it. In reality left with no option but to dive externally "At risk".

It sounds like this is still happening and that we need a revamp of OD, as at present the PADI OW student crossed to SD gets a much much better deal on life.

Just my 6 pen'th

Paul

[Richard Whitcombe]

Takes two weekends to learn OD with our branch
Two half classroom days
Two half pool days
one dry suit evening
one openwater weekend

That is far from common. It doesn't tally with first hand information i have from quite a few BSAC clubs, my own clubs nor the quite large number of people ive had abroad who ended up signing and paying for PADI OW course after trying to get through OD for 6+ months and still not getting it finished. They just wanted to dive and in the end had to go elsewhere. It was a problem when i was learning and would appear to still be a problem now.
Uni branches and the like are more organised because they have to be but id say they're the exception rather than the rule.

[allen]

We decided to offer spaces on our AD lecture day to the region/other local branches and there does seem to be demand out there - so far we have 13 students and rising! :)

[GaryC]

Because we are a BSAC branch, we have invested in an O2 analyser
dry suits and want to run Ocean Diver

Please don't chase people away to PADI, let’s start them off from scratch on OD
Its more comprehensive than OW (I.e. Nitrox)
It's better suited to UK diving
It often includes Dry suit training
and in branch its less expensive than PADI OW

All we need is that one rule sorting and we can then compete with OW
and do what we are good at turning out Ocean Divers and above

This year I hope to sign off my 100 Ocean Diver
Actually that was sort of Devils advocate. I would never chase anyone off to go and do a PADI OW course (or BSAC OD) as part of an intensive week unless they specifically wanted to do the course very quickly at their own request.

Personally I am a great beleiver in trying to do all training and maybe even some of the Holiday market. But it is difficult to manage in a branch. Not all Instructors will take the full expenses and then they obviously only do a certain amount of training.

Gary

[Richard Whitcombe]

Its more comprehensive than OW (I.e. Nitrox)

No its not. BSAC has some skills PADI doesn't, PADI has some BSAC doesn't. They offer pretty identical qualifications. You can combine Nitrox with open water if you wish. BSAC offers a crippled pointless nitrox offering at OD level that really isnt of any use to anyone.


It's better suited to UK diving

How do you work that out? How does an OD course done in the UK differ from an OW done in the UK ?


It often includes Dry suit training

As does PADI training in the UK. I see no end of clubs AND commercial schools throwing their students into freezing cold inland sites in wetsuits from both agencies. I also see (a much much smaller number) of clubs and commercial centres with students in drysuits.
There is no agency difference here.


and in branch its less expensive than PADI OW

That bit is true provided the students done take a year to do it (ie monthly fees) and aren't forced to do 10-15 dives to get qualified.


There really is very very little difference between OD and OW. None that make any real world difference.

[Edward]

There really is very very little difference between OD and OW. None that make any real world difference.
Now that's the real point.

We know the OD requirements, but doesn't a PADI OW (and AOW) require to be under the supervision of an Dive Master or instructor who is organising the dive as PADI don't teach dive planning at OW level.

Remember PADI's system was developed for holidaying (sorry vacationing) divers to be lead round Caribbean sites, therefore they never need to know how to manage diving.

Regards

[GaryC]

Now that's the real point.

We know the OD requirements, but doesn't a PADI OW (and AOW) require to be under the supervision of an Dive Master or instructor who is organising the dive as PADI don't teach dive planning at OW level.

Remember PADI's system was developed for holidaying (sorry vacationing) divers to be lead round Caribbean sites, therefore they never need to know how to manage diving.

Regards
No I don't think so. A PADI OW diver can dive with a diver of the same grade or above at a Sport diving site. (Not sure if there is an exact definition of that but appears to be where other dives take place) and they should dive in the similar or better conditions that they learnt in.

It maybe that PADI's assumption is that they will all be diving in benight conditions where most of the PADI presence takes place.

Gary

PS From the PADI WEBSITE

Why PADI Open Water?
As a certified PADI Open Water Diver, the most widely recognized and respected rating in the world, you have the freedom to dive with a buddy independent of a professional.

[Richard Whitcombe]

but doesn't a PADI OW (and AOW) require to be under the supervision of an Dive Master or instructor who is organising the dive as PADI don't teach dive planning at OW level.

No.

They're quite entitled to dive with another open water or higher level diver independently as a pair.

PADI teach basic gas planning, basic navigation, entries, exits and basics of what to do in an emergency. (as do all the other agencies).

They're not hamstrung by having to dive with an instructor or divemaster at all. Only the Scuba Diver (half open water course, 12m limit) has to dive with a divemaster.

Like it or not OWs dive with each other many times every single day and aren't ending up dead. Even in the UK. Yes ideally they'll be AOW or higher but they dont have to be and many manage to dive without that and without incident.


Remember PADI's system was developed for holidaying (sorry vacationing) divers to be lead round Caribbean sites, therefore they never need to know how to manage diving.

They're taught how to plan and safely conduct dives within the recommended limits of their qualification. It works. People go diving and the incident rate is incredibly low.

[Edward]

PS From the PADI WEBSITE

Why PADI Open Water?
As a certified PADI Open Water Diver, the most widely recognized and respected rating in the world, you have the freedom to dive with a buddy independent of a professional.

This can be interoperated in so many ways.

My take is that the OW diver doesn't have to be in the water with a DM or an instructor. It doesn't say they can go off and do their own thing. Why this take; the dive operator would still charge for providing the surface cover to provide the rescue services an OW diver doesn't posses.

Regards

[PeteM]

Yes I thought that might be the case, as the previous grade Nov II did not allow this and retained it when it became club diver

Nope, Club Diver had the same restrictions as Ocean Diver, i.e. can dive with another club diver if OK'd by DO or marshall - that's straight from my QRB issued in 1999.

[Richard Whitcombe]

This can be interoperated in so many ways.

My take is that the OW diver doesn't have to be in the water with a DM or an instructor. It doesn't say they can go off and do their own thing. Why this take; the dive operator would still charge for providing the surface cover to provide the rescue services an OW diver doesn't posses.

Regards

From the official standards they are allowed to dive with an open water diver or above to a recommended maximum depth of 18m. They don't need surface cover, they don't need a babysitter in the water or out of the water. The standards are very clear. It doesn't need to say "you can go off and do your own thing". The important thing is it doesnt say you cant. The BSAC one specifically says that.

Go to the florida keys, the diving there is your assigned a buddy and told where the sea is. No guide. And its the most popular place in America.

[GaryC]

Nope, Club Diver had the same restrictions as Ocean Diver, i.e. can dive with another club diver if OK'd by DO or marshall - that's straight from my QRB issued in 1999.
Club Diver was Ocean Diver but for the Branch system and HQ just re-named it Ocean Diver. (From Memory)
They were really the same grade. When I said before OD I meant NovII etc.

[bythesea]

A PADI OW diver can dive independently, basic dive planning is taught. There is no interpretation needed.

They are qualified to dive in conditions better than or the same as those in which they trained to a depth of 18m.

The Scuba diver course does not allow for independent diving as this is a shortened version of the OW course, designed for tourists, and does not include the dive planning lectures, a scuba diver can upgrade to an open water diver by doing the dive planning lectures and a couple more dives.


They are qualified divers.

Let us not forget, no one in this country has a legal requirement to have any qualification to jump in the sea with a tank strapped to their back if they so chose to do so.

[bythesea]

This can be interoperated in so many ways.

My take is that the OW diver doesn't have to be in the water with a DM or an instructor. It doesn't say they can go off and do their own thing. Why this take; the dive operator would still charge for providing the surface cover to provide the rescue services an OW diver doesn't posses.

Regards

What dive operator Edward, all you need is a beach and the sea?

or a bank and the river, or a quarry, or a lake....

BTW, I trained PADi and taught PADI so my 'take' comes from experience of the system

[Paul McCarthy]

This is interesting to me as a crossover diver who has been diving with PADI certification for about 5/6 years. As a PADI OW I dived in a number of locations around the place, sometimes with resort operators and at other times independently with other divers from a variety of agencies, including BSAC. Some of the independent dives were, initially, quite conservative, diving from our inflatables anchored in calm water then mooching around the reef and headland at 10-15 metres for 30-40 mins. A gang of us formed an informal diving group whilst sailing in company. As we became more confident, and depending upon the experience of fellow divers, our range and variety extended.This was mainly around the Atlantic and Caribbean Islands, we had access to a variety of dive information and the fluid group became reasonably good at assessing possible dives. We were all sailors so had a reasonable understanding of tides and currents, we learnt loads doing this and if we were unfamilar with an area we would do an intro dive with a local operator.

Surely there must be safe dives for Ocean Divers in the UK, maybe once they had dived it with others to familiarise themselves with the layout and risks of the dive. I can certainly appreciate the vertue of discussing a dive plan with somebody in a DO role to undertake an informed risk assessment of the site and the overall plan but a shallow shore dive at slack water in a well known location must be an option?? I am not slagging off the BSAC training as what I have experienced so far has been really good, I am just wondering about the risk management implicit in the diver grads within BSAC.

[Nigel Hewitt]

We know the OD requirements, but doesn't a PADI OW (and AOW) require to be under the supervision of an Dive Master or instructor who is organising the dive as PADI don't teach dive planning at OW level.
Nope. OW is 18 meters and air. No rules about supervision.
My son and I qualified in an October in the UK and we went diving.

Then we wanted a deeper card to match the stuff we were doing so we did AOW in the winter and discovered that drysuits were a good idea so we upgraded our kit...

...And we went and did a lot more diving. By the time we decided to do RD I was already chartering boats to arrange uk.rec.scuba group trips to sites I wanted to dive.

I do confess that I was quite surprised when I joined a BSAC club to discover that 'trip organising' was considered 'Advanced' because I had assumed that if you want to dive something specific you had to organise it yourself.

[Edward]

I've had this conversation with a number of PADI instructors over the years, Each one defends to the death the ability for their students to dive independently once qualified.

However, I've yet to be shown the text from PADI that confirms 2 OW can dive without surface cover. PADI Inc refused to provide the information, all I got was PADI train divers to dive as part of a group when on vacation. And as OW divers are not members of PADI its not their problem and therefore not their liability.

Sorry to the OP for this high-jack.

Regards

[Richard Whitcombe]

However, I've yet to be shown the text from PADI that confirms 2 OW can dive without surface cover.

Why are you looking for that? The qualification says dive with someone else to max recommended depth of 18m. It doesn't need to say they dont need surface cover. In the same reason it doesnt need to say "you are also qualified to dive on Tuesdays" or "You are allowed to dive with people called geoff".
Unless it says you can't do something you can. It really is as simple as that.
The reason ODs aren't allowed independent diving is because BSAC specifically say they can't. If they got rid of the "..under the supervision of a dive marshal" line then they could too.

This is a case here of BSAC adding clauses that aren't around elsewhere. They choose to limit a qualification and say so in the description of it. If you aren't specifically banning something you dont need to mention everything they can do or you'd be there all day.

A simple email to training@ or telephoning Bristol will confirm this for you if you still don't believe it.

I can guarantee as well that "training divers to dive as part of a group on vacation" is also not a PADI standard for any course at all. Again a simple phone call to Bristol would prove that.

As for liability, it is still their liability. If their training standards or course content were implicated in an incident then its still their problem regardless of whether someone is a member or not. However there has never been a case against and the structure, allowances and content have been tested repeatedly so again the statistics would prove this isn't a problem at all. And let's remember that America is FAR more litigious than the UK - if it was a problem it would have come up by now.

Like quite a few other posters on here i've taught several hundred open water level divers and am also involved in training PADI instructors in a staff instructor role. I can guarantee they do not need surface support or a marshal and do not have to dive in a group.

It is just the case here of BSAC restricting its otherwise equivalent qualification needlessly.

[bythesea]

Sometimes, Edward, you just need to accept things, Nigel survived and last time I looked I am still breathing.

OW divers are fully trained and qualified to dive together without supervision. End of. No debate, no interpretation, that is just the way it is.

The same is true of NAUI, SSI, SDI, to name but a few, infact I believe it is only BSAC that put their trained divers in this position.

[Nigel Hewitt]

I've had this conversation with a number of PADI instructors over the years, Each one defends to the death the ability for their students to dive independently once qualified.
And yet you still won't believe it.
However, I've yet to be shown the text from PADI that confirms 2 OW can dive without surface cover. PADI Inc refused to provide the information, all I got was PADI train divers to dive as part of a group when on vacation. And as OW divers are not members of PADI its not their problem and therefore not their liability.
The fact that BSAC does something weird, for historical reasons I think, that nobody else in the world does doesn't make everybody else strange. I've used an AOW card to hire kit from a shop to beach dive and getting directions as to where a good entry point is ain't surface cover.

I think we're wrong on this one and the uselessness of OD as a qualification makes the OW-SD progression quite attractive. Also, after shelling out several hundred quid for a few lectures and four dives (or is it five) students really appreciate getting SD as just part of being in a club.

Our other big problem is that our DMs and DOs are seen as 'diving preventers' not 'diving facilitators'. The wordings on the roles are very bad but nobody seems to worry about things like that.

Sorry folks. The sidetrack is more interesting than the thread which had long since resolved into the usual argument.

[davebarber]

Don't be in such a hurry.

Mid winter isn't an appropriate time to be doing your OD openwater dives.

[allen]

Our other big problem is that our DMs and DOs are seen as 'diving preventers' not 'diving facilitators'.
Is that really true? In our branch the policy is that every dive using club boats should be open to all, unless it is a "specialist" dive such as trimix - we simply run multiple waves/sites so that those who want to dive deeper can, and then have a shallower option that is suitable for all comers. However, I can see that this would be a problem for clubs that rely on hardboats for their diving.

[MattS]

Sorry to the OP for this high-jack.Next time you see a member of NDC just ask them this simple question.

Are you willing to restrict yourself to dives with dedicated surface cover?

BSAC don't impose the condition on any other diver holding a BSAC qualification. I am pretty sure you know what would happen if they tried and it would not be pretty.

[MattS]

Club Diver was Ocean Diver but for the Branch system and HQ just re-named it Ocean Diver. (From Memory)A Club Diver was qualified to dive with another Club Diver (to 20m, no deco, air only) with the DOs approval. Simple and clear.

When the name changed to Ocean Diver, the qualification wording also changed adding, '...on a properly managed dive.' Or words to that effect. An immediate consequence being Horsea Lake, (about the most benign and well organised stretch of 6m seawater lake in the UK,) started turning away pairs of Ocean Divers while continuing to allow pairs of OWs. The site's operators obtaining a written statement from HQ to prove they had to.

A properly managed dive, requires dedicated surface cover. That is, a suitably trained person should remain on the surface while the ODs are in the water, as confirmed in the letter sent from HQ to Horsea's operators. A small change to wording with far reaching implications. ODs not being able to dive except on branch outings. Adhering strictly to the words would practically preclude ODs diving from UK charter boats. UK charter skippers can not directly offer dive management services under the conditions of their insurance and eligibility for zero rate VAT - they must though assist with rescues in an emergency, as required by the shipping act.

When I said before OD I meant NovII etc.I don't think you can easily compare pre-post 1998 qualifications, due to the other changes that were happening in the DTP and ITS. Novice II may not have qualified you to do very much but in the context of the entire BSAC system at the time, they usually got a great deal more opportunity to dive and progress toward Sport Diver. As a Novice II, I was able to dive virtually every weekend, sometimes just wandering off with a DL or AD with the DOs approval. It's a damn site easier to find a willing DL or AD than to organise a branch outing in my experience. I made
SD within 6 months, with 40 dives and it was no great undertaking for anyone concerned.

I guess OD is fine for university and other clubs that usually dive as a branch. For a person on the coast wishing to make casual use of the local facilities, as part of a wider group of like minded local friends and acquaintances (say a dive club), it's bloody restrictive.

[Gareth]

Club Diver was Ocean Diver but for the Branch system and HQ just re-named it Ocean Diver. (From Memory)
They were really the same grade. When I said before OD I meant NovII etc.

Gary

Novice II couldn't dive together, they needed a minimum buddy of Diveleader.
At Novice II you had done two openwater dives. 1 dive to 6m maximum, 1 dive with exercises to 6m maximum.

You needed to complete Sports Diver before you had any form of usable diving qualification.

This is one of the reasons there is so much resistance by Diving Officers & branches to allowing Ocean Divers to dive together prior to gaining a Sports Diver qualification. The amount of experienced gained by the time Ocean Diver is completed is felt by many to be too low[1]. However, most Diving Offciers (& branches) do seem to be happy with Ocean Divers diving with Sports Divers, which is a definate lowering of the bar compared to when Club Diver (Ocean Diver) was first introduced.

[1] The issue relates to diving conditions. In warm clear waters of the Red Sea, Malta etc. Then level of knowledge & experience is perfectly fine.
In the lower visability, colder tidal waters of the UK in February it is more debateable. The biggest issue is the variablility of conditions & the speed at which conditions can deteriorate. In Northern European Waters, conditions change very quickly from acceptable to dangerous.
The other factor is that most branches are protective of their membership, even once they are qualified. Branch members become friends.
Whilst reading about a diving accident is upsetting, it is considerably more distressing when it is an incident involving friends. Any diving incident within a branch community can have significant impact on the whole branch.

Gareth

[GaryC]

Is that really true? In our branch the policy is that every dive using club boats should be open to all, unless it is a "specialist" dive such as trimix - we simply run multiple waves/sites so that those who want to dive deeper can, and then have a shallower option that is suitable for all comers. However, I can see that this would be a problem for clubs that rely on hardboats for their diving.
Yes it is. The discussion here is on the comparision between the PADI OW Cert and the BSAC OD and the issue that unlike the OW diver, an OD can not just go off and dive with another OD. They have to dive together with a Dive Manager present. If you have a Dive Manager (appointed by the DO) present then it is likely that they won't allow 2 OD to dive together anyway as if part of a club dive, as there will probably be SD or indeed DL available. In addition the DO review procedure is likely to turn up straight forward NO.

The DO is a get of Jail Free card for BSAC, they are givein the task of making decisions without really a great deal of help. The result is a vast range of decisions for the same initial review. And its not just this issu either. The very Xover process is subject to DO review. If the DO does not think that the possible SD student (PADI OW) is up to it then they can make them do the full OD course.

You have to ask yourself if a prospective member wanted to do the OD course in a short week then why would anyone point them to a BSAC school to do OD when OW gives you that little bit more.

To reign this back a little. The issue of 2 x OD wanting to dive together is quite rare in my experience. In my time as DO for 5 years (few years ago) I was only ever was asked by a pair of OD friends who wanted to go off together during the Week on their own. They were a bow hair of SD anyway and it was easier to get them through SD than tell them they could not dive together on their own.

Gary

[Nigel Hewitt]

Don't be in such a hurry.

Mid winter isn't an appropriate time to be doing your OD openwater dives.
ROTFL
Don't you remember what being a new diver was like?
"What? Wait until NEXT week?"

There are times I'm glad I came into BSAC with lots of outside cards. I already had a circle of diving friends and I could go diving pretty much when I had free time. I was already qualified to put trimix in my rebreather before I asked the DO to write me a SALT to SD so I could go and do the Instructor Foundation Course.

I admit I really like my bit of BSAC, I'm under orders from the TO to turn up at the pool and try-dive a newbie tonight, but I begin to realise we're a lot more accommodating than some. Sad really.

[MattS]

You needed to complete Sports Diver before you had any form of usable diving qualification.That is very much the view from atop the ladder. As a Novice II I just wanted to learn to swim underwater, in the sea, with an aqua-lung, with other divers. No pre-conception that a dive had to be to 20m or even 10m to be useful. I managed 40 dives as a Novice II and enjoyed them all immensely. If that's a useless qualification, bring it on.

This is one of the reasons there is so much resistance by Diving Officers & branches to allowing Ocean Divers to dive together prior to gaining a Sports Diver qualification.Bloody ridiculous. 5 OW lessons and we are too precious to allow em to dive to 6m alone. A few more lessons and we hand em a 35m deco ticket and rejoice they are no longer a burden on the instructors. Yet, you ask any instructor from any agency and 99.9% opine that newly qualified divers should be spending more time in the shallows gaining experience. Do you see the contradiction here?

[Edward]

OK, I hear what you are ALL saying, it’s not something I’ll lose sleep over.

Regards

[GaryC]

OK, I hear what you are ALL saying, it’s not something I’ll lose sleep over.

Regards
No indeed. But there might be one or two potential Ocean Divers out there who are loosing sleep over the decision to either go PADI OW or BSAC OD.

Just that nagging doubt that we could loose some.

Gary

[The Rocketeer]

You are not alone in that thought Gary C.

If Edward isn't going to lose any sleep over the current system (As I'm sure most aren't who have done it and moved on) then nothing will change. I.e. can you see the pattern emerging yet? (Rolf Harris impression now off) and we will still have shed loads of brassed off OD's who cant dive when the rest of the branch goes out on Trips because of nobody wanting to dive with them and let alone marshall for them.

Taxi to padiland for the frustrated OD...........As I very nearly did when I came through the Club Diver System. Come on folks it must happen loads or are we all so happy wearing our rose tinted spectacles.

If this attitude is taken to its final conclusion we may as well forget OD totally and tell people to do PADI OW first and then come back once they are qualified.

Paul

[Fred]

If this attitude is taken to its final conclusion we may as well forget OD totally and tell people to do PADI OW first and then come back once they are qualified.

Paul

That begs the question " Will there be anywhere to come back to "??

[Ron MacRae]

...... we will still have shed loads of brassed off OD's who cant dive when the rest of the branch goes out on Trips because of nobody wanting to dive with them and let alone marshall for them.

Initial question was about 2 ODs going off on their own, not on a club dive.
That's a completely different box of spanners to a club trip.

Our ODs can go on 75% of the club dive days.
On club days everyone is DMed, even the ADs.
We don't have a problem getting buddies for the ODs as most of them are bloody good divers, within their limitations of experience.
I'm not hearing anyone in my club complaining about not being able to dive.

There is a big difference between 2 ODs who just completed the course last week, who've possibly never been in the sea, going off together to do a shore dive, unsupervised and 2 ODs with a year of diving under their belts going to Stoney. Unfortunatly the rules have to cater for the former.

With a bit of effort most clubs can keep their ODs happy?

Ron.

[GaryC]

You are not alone in that thought Gary C.

If Edward isn't going to lose any sleep over the current system (As I'm sure most aren't who have done it and moved on) then nothing will change. I.e. can you see the pattern emerging yet? (Rolf Harris impression now off) and we will still have shed loads of brassed off OD's who cant dive when the rest of the branch goes out on Trips because of nobody wanting to dive with them and let alone marshall for them.

Taxi to padiland for the frustrated OD...........As I very nearly did when I came through the Club Diver System. Come on folks it must happen loads or are we all so happy wearing our rose tinted spectacles.

If this attitude is taken to its final conclusion we may as well forget OD totally and tell people to do PADI OW first and then come back once they are qualified.

Paul
They are 2 quite different issues. The 2 x OD diving together is really an issue with BSAC not allowing something that PADI does seemingly without any issues.

The second issue is simply the Branch not providing a number of options in dive trips for the correct levels. They need to offer diving that is DL only AND SD and above and OD and above. You need a mix or the DL wil get fed up babysitting. It is not that difficult to arrange a trip to a site for OD aswell. On the east coast we have a few wrecks in the range 15 - 20 metres deep and we do them. That being said we had more problems filling the OD trips as those that were eligible could not be ar$ed. But that is another issue yet again.

There is a likely hood that not arranging OD trips creates a situation where all the OD want to dive together. Simple answer is get some OD trips on the board ASAP.

As others have hinted, if the Branch does not dive then there is usually a dive shop willing to arrange something at a cost. They call it a revenue stream, we call it a loss of members flood.
Gary

[Richard Whitcombe]

The 2 x OD diving together is really an issue with BSAC not allowing something that PADI does seemingly without any issues.

BSACs commercial arm could be suffering because of this.

Assuming (i) you could actually find a BSAC school (rare) and (ii) the courses were the same price (usually they're not as its more expensive to run OD)

Then you have all things being equal and you have a person "This qualification allows you to dive to 20m but you must have someone on shore or boat looking after you if you want to dive with someone else. Or for the same money you can do this course, and dive to 18m with any diver you want completely independently.. OK so which do you want to go for?"

In reality there are other problems such as BSAC massively restricting how easy it is to teach BSAC courses vs other agencies by forcing a school to form in essence like a club and no teaching outside that so lots don't bother. The lack of demand for OD means it'll likely be run as a 1 pax course so therefore cost more as you dont have the numbers and it'll take longer mainly due to the theory lectures etc.

They really do seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with the OD qualification and are going to be losing out both in clubs and potentially even more-so commercially.

[Gareth]

I don't honestly know what the answer is.

I originally trained with PADI, I then joined a BSAC branch so I could go diving.
At the time the crossover path was a little laborious, so I did NII then SD.

I did a shed load of diving as an NII, with both DL's & instructors. I didn't feel there was any difficulty in going diving if I wanted to.

Granted this was all a long time ago.

Last year we discussed our branch diving rules at a committee meeting, then again with the instructors. The thing that I found most interesting was the older divers who had done NI NII & SD or had been trained OD, SD etc where more relaxed about experienced OD's diving together or newer OD's with SD's. The people who where the most reluctant for OD's to dive without a DL where the PADI trained members. Possibly because the BSAC members 'assume' there is some form of marshalling. Last year the majority of the committee where originally PADI trained.

Whilst I don't want to loose potential members to PADI, I would be happier having my branch members leave, than having to ring wives, girlfriends or parents, or spend the night in a Police station, after an accident. All of which I have had to do in the past.

Whilst for some the requirements may be inconvenient the one thing that is hard one is experience. Not that that makes you immune from things going wrong, but experience does give you the tools to deal with it (we hope). A more experienced eye can solve a problem before it occurs, or stop a problem turning into a tragedy. Thats what the Dive manager provides, an experienced eye.

Gareth

[GaryC]

In reality there are other problems such as BSAC massively restricting how easy it is to teach BSAC courses vs other agencies by forcing a school to form in essence like a club and no teaching outside that so lots don't bother. The lack of demand for OD means it'll likely be run as a 1 pax course so therefore cost more as you dont have the numbers and it'll take longer mainly due to the theory lectures etc.

Apart from the requirement for a school to have a Club attached to it. [BSAC]

I thought the practise of resricting a school to a single agency was fairly common. Indeed I thought PADI also did this and I know the RYA expect it.

How on earth do schools get round it. I would have thought BSAC HQ could not be chosers in this day and age. But I am not party to what happens in practise.

If it comes to a toss up, not much to call is there.

Gary

[Richard Whitcombe]

Indeed I thought PADI also did this and I know the RYA expect it.

Most diving agencies the instructor can teach courses with no attachment at all (certainly the common diving grades). A PADI instructor (or SDI or NAUI or others) can teach their agencies courses alone or in affiliation.
The only agency i know that restricts to a shop is SSI commercially.

Until you start teaching assistant instructor level and above with most agencies you dont have to worry about agency affiliation for a dive centre.


How on earth do schools get round it. I would have thought BSAC HQ could not be chosers in this day and age.

Schools are roughly set up like a club in that they have a nominated lead instructor/diving officer, a fee to BSAC of about £150 a year and so on.

The documents are here (http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=1618&sectionTitle=Three+easy+steps+to+becoming+a+BSAC+C entre)

Ocean Divers through them get a short "mini" membership of BSAC as part of the fee. However SD and above have to pay full BSAC membership before they can enrol onto a course so this instantly adds about £50 to the cost before the course even starts.

In short becoming a BSAC centre needs a fee and an instructor and that instructor can only teach through a centre or club. For most businesses abroad adding on the annual fee and the other clauses in there doesn't make it economical for the usually tiny demand for BSAC courses.

Ive had several people come up to be abroad (and some dive centres) asking can i teach SD or DL to someone. The answer had to be no - they weren't a BSAC centre so despite being an instructor i cant teach it to the customer. The said customer then did PADI AOW or MSD instead which any instructor can teach out of anywhere.
They dont make it easy to teach in what is a very very vicious commercial market abroad.

[Fred]

In short becoming a BSAC centre needs a fee and an instructor and that instructor can only teach through a centre or club. For most businesses abroad adding on the annual fee and the other clauses in there doesn't make it economical for the usually tiny demand for BSAC courses.



A good point Richard, however if you read this forum for any length of time you will see people being advised by BSAC members to to take the PADI route if they require a quick qualification. Seldom do you see advice to go to a BSAC school/centre.

[bythesea]

In response to Mr Rocketeers post.

I am always happy to dive with a keen OD, I was fortunate enough to have mentors when I started diving even though I was outside the BSAC system. My friends who could dive would always invite me out with them.

Some people will help others, some wont regardless of agency. Personally I think a dive with a keen novice is much more satisfying than a dive with a bored looking, done it all and got the T shirt experienced buddy.

If you don't help the novices improve and expand their skills what hope is there for the future of dive clubs?

[Richard Whitcombe]

duplicate.

[GaryC]

If you don't help the novices improve and expand their skills what hope is there for the future of dive clubs?
I agree with all that and I suspect most people on this forum would also agree. However there is a small amount of evidence suggesting that some clubs really don't support OD diving to a great extent.

That with very slow training and restrictive practices, is getting the rest of the good clubs into bad press and hence lower members.

Gary

[Richard Whitcombe]

A good point Richard, however if you read this forum for any length of time you will see people being advised by BSAC members to to take the PADI route if they require a quick qualification. Seldom do you see advice to go to a BSAC school/centre.

Quite simply because ocean diver courses usually cost more (they're more resource intensive and take a big longer time wise in addition to being probably run for 1 person makes it more) and its usually very hard to find a centre abroad especially one where you can start immediately.

Contrast it to a PADI course where you can walk into any centre and usually start immediately and be done in 3-4 days.

So for equivalent qualifications id find it very hard to recommend a centre over doing padi OW for cost and practicality reasons.

To do a BSAC course abroad you'd have to do some research, email centres in advance to check its actually offered (lots dont actually provide it) and pick your destination purely out of finding somewhere to do your diving course. With OW you'd do the opposite - pick somewhere you want to go, anywhere, and there will be someone there who can teach you.

[MattS]

I don't honestly know what the answer is.The answer is that we admit we are failing a proportion of ODs and seek to do something to improve their lot. Beating on branch members not working hard enough doesn't cut it. The BSAC structure should facilitate teaching divers and taking them diving as an enjoyable pastime and not make it so damn complicated that it becomes bloody hard work. That is the challenge that Council members and NDC should be losing sleep over IMHO.

I did a shed load of diving as an NII, with both DL's & instructors. I didn't feel there was any difficulty in going diving if I wanted to. Granted this was all a long time ago.Shock, horror, not only did we survive we are still in BSAC, extolling BSAC training, teaching subsequent generations to dive the BSAC way. Do you think there might be a connection there somewhere? I am sure there is.

The people who where the most reluctant for OD's to dive without a DL where the PADI trained members. Possibly because the BSAC members 'assume' there is some form of marshalling. Last year the majority of the committee where originally PADI trained.No I don't think that's it.

My experience with OW and AOW crossovers is that most of them got very little attention from their instructors. I am sure you will be familiar with the sight of OW trainees queueing up behind a DM, ready to perform their skills in front the instructor on the final dive of their course. Seems to happen most weekends at Vobster and I expect it's the same at Stoney, Cappers and the numerous schools in the Red Sea. I have seen such groups of 5 or so students spend under 15 minutes underwater, that's just 3 minutes per student!

What happens when they join branches is they see OD trainees getting so much more instructor attention and mentoring. They may even experience it through being taught to do buoyancy checks or dry suit acquaintance. I suspect they start to wonder about the training they received and may later decide the confidence they felt was over-confidence, breeding reservation for what a newly qualified diver can do as over-compensation.

The BSAC system is very progressive. On average a home grown OD will have gotten a great deal of attention from instructors in the pool and during the open water lessons. Let's be honest, no one could afford to spend those hours with a student one to one and hope to make a living. Additionally there are the hours of latent mentoring, around the bar (or whatever), in the weeks and months leading up to qualification. The course syllabus may not be greatly more comprehensive than PADI, but the typical BSAC trainees learning experience is. It all helps to build a realistic, conservative but also confident outlook.

Whilst I don't want to loose potential members to PADI, I would be happier having my branch members leave, than having to ring wives, girlfriends or parents, or spend the night in a Police station, after an accident. All of which I have had to do in the past.No one wants to have to do that but we continue to dive and take responsibility for others all the same. Unfortunately accidents are a consequence of enabling people to take risks for their own enjoyment. Something to chew on, neither you nor I are immune, we just like to think we are.

A newly qualified SD is no more or less likely to be able to dive to the limits of their qualification in all conditions than an OD is. In fact, the SD has far more potential risks to contend with. As I have said before, it's newly newly qualified SDs that worry me. Not least because some are keen to flex their new qualification after being chained to instructors for so long.

Thats what the Dive manager provides, an experienced eye.I would think the average DO is capable of accurately forecasting the conditions at Vobster, Stoney, Swanage Pier etc from the comfort of the club house.

It's a conundrum all right. ODs say they want the opportunity to get more experience. We (Instructors) all say that more progressive experience is highly desirable, before moving onto Sports and it's much deeper qualification limits. But we have created rules which disuade ODs from gaining shallow water experience, just in case having no common sense coincides with forgetting everything taught on the course.

[Gareth]

You are not alone in that thought Gary C.

If Edward isn't going to lose any sleep over the current system (As I'm sure most aren't who have done it and moved on) then nothing will change. I.e. can you see the pattern emerging yet? (Rolf Harris impression now off) and we will still have shed loads of brassed off OD's who cant dive when the rest of the branch goes out on Trips because of nobody wanting to dive with them and let alone marshall for them.

Taxi to padiland for the frustrated OD...........As I very nearly did when I came through the Club Diver System. Come on folks it must happen loads or are we all so happy wearing our rose tinted spectacles.

If this attitude is taken to its final conclusion we may as well forget OD totally and tell people to do PADI OW first and then come back once they are qualified.

Paul

Paul

You have me at a loss, why can't OD's dive with the branch, is this some form of new rule I didn't know about?

I thought the OP was asking about diving outside the branch or without a dive manager.

In terms of restrictions on branch dive trips there is little difference between PADI OW & BSAC OD, other than PADI OW can only dive to 18m I believe whilst OD's can dive to 20m.

The question is, is a branch organising dives suitable for those with little diving experience & within the limitation of their qualifcations. If they are not, then it matters not if they hold a BSAC qualification or a PADI qualification.
This is an issue about the suitability of the branch.

Within our branch we try very hard to help members progress to SD. This is where the vast majority of our trips are targeted. We do however run trips specifically suited to OD's (with restricted places for OD's). We are very upfront about this when people join. Our primary objective is to get members to SD, if they wish to progress beyond this then great, if not, then fair enough. The only other thing we do strongly encourage is that all members attend & complete the O2 course.

Not being a coastal branch we have to organise trips to the coast. We do however have inland sites local to us, & there is seldom a weekend when a few of the branch are not diving, so the opportunity is there for those wishing to have a quick 'dip'.
The vast majority of our branch are more than happy to dive with a new & keen diver. It allows them to talk of daring deeds, fighting seamonsters & how they once dived the titanic in a knitted jumper & a calor gas bottle with a big knife to fend off the sharks.

As Bythesea says a new diver is generally more fun on a local dive than someone whos dived the site a hundred times.

Ocean diver trip (http://www.sisac.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;cat=83)

Gareth

[Gareth]

Matt

You have me slightly confused.

As a NII I couldn't dive unless I had a DL or instructor (SD didn't cut it). I had to graduate to SD, which was 8 Dives & an assessment, so 9 dives (assuming you passed everything first time).

As an OD, you can dive with a SD, DL etc.

You can as an OD dive with an OD if you have a Dive Manager, which I couldn't as an NII.

These are of course not directly equivelent qualifcations. But it is easier as an OD to go diving than as an NII.

The real problems are if you are a member of a branch that:-
a/ doesn't dive
b/ is a closed shop (x ony dives with y)
c/ you don't want to dive with the branch
d/ the trips are all closed or beyond your qualification
e/ there is no opportunity to go diving

The other issue relates to progressing beyond your OD qualification. i.e

f/ the branch is not forthcoming.
g/ there are no or insufficient active instructors

I am also aware that accidents appen to SD's, DL's, AD's, FC, Instructors, etc . Often due to over confidence or know it all syndrome, carelessness, or just because they are unlucky. You hope that the mix of experience & knowledge ensures they get back to the surface in one piece, or at least so they can recieve first aid & evacuation. I am also well aware that the more experienced often have the opportunity / confidence to get themselves into worse situations than a OD. But if training & experience do not mitigate these issues then the whole premis of diver training is redundent.


Gareth

[Ron MacRae]

Whilst I don't want to loose potential members to PADI, I would be happier having my branch members leave, than having to ring wives, girlfriends or parents, or spend the night in a Police station, after an accident. All of which I have had to do in the past.

So true. Even if it's to say they've gone in a helecopter but they're really fine it's not nice. I'd hate to do one where someone was badly hurt/dead.

Ron.

[Richard Whitcombe]

So true. Even if it's to say they've gone in a helecopter but they're really fine it's not nice. I'd hate to do one where someone was badly hurt/dead.

Ron.

And despite all this worry the incident reports dont suggest at all that 2 x OD/OW divers diving together are having any more incidents than any other group!

[Ron MacRae]

And despite all this worry the incident reports dont suggest at all that 2 x OD/OW divers diving together are having any more incidents than any other group!

Because it doesn't happen. At least not in our club.

Their first few dives will be with an instructor, then a DL, then a good SD, while they build up some experience. Then we let them loose but by that time they're mostly through SD anyway.

Ron.

[The Rocketeer]

Hi Gareth

As you say it is a question of branch suitability and have hit the nail on the head with your later post at 17:09. Yes if you look after your OD's in the transitionary phase between OD and SD then you get to keep them.

However some branches don't, I've seen this happen and the OD's then leave for the other organisations, or do "At Risk Dives" outside of the club due to a lack of progress, because they are not getting in the dives and their mandate at OD level is an incredibly tight one, compared with say the OW cert.

Regards

Paul

[Fred]

Quite simply because ocean diver courses usually cost more (they're more resource intensive and take a big longer time wise in addition to being probably run for 1 person makes it more) and its usually very hard to find a centre abroad especially one where you can start immediately.



That is no reason for not pointing the newbie in the BSAC's direction and letting them make their own decision.

[Edward]

The answer is that we admit we are failing a proportion of ODs and seek to do something to improve their lot. Beating on branch members not working hard enough doesn't cut it. The BSAC structure should facilitate teaching divers and taking them diving as an enjoyable pastime and not make it so damn complicated that it becomes bloody hard work. That is the challenge that Council members and NDC should be losing sleep over IMHO.

For clarity, the thing I won’t lose sleep over is P*** OW diving together.

Getting Branches to accept BSAC OD have been assessed as competent to plan and execute a dive within their current skill set is an issue. The satisfaction I see when I pair ODs on the S Scotland training sessions is amazing; so I know its rare

Regards

[Richard Whitcombe]

Because it doesn't happen. At least not in our club.

It happens outside a club environment all the time. And on a much larger scale the other agencies certifications it happens a massive number of times every single day. Yet the incidents aren't high.
There is no evidence to suggest that 2 x entry levels divers diving together are going to get into trouble yet BSAC still chooses to artificially restrict its qualification.

[Richard Whitcombe]

That is no reason for not pointing the newbie in the BSAC's direction and letting them make their own decision.

Why would i point someone who asks for advice in the direction that in my view isn't the best for them?
I've got no vested interest - it doesnt matter to me if they train BSAC, PADI, NAUI or anything. The end result is the same, a qualified diver.

If someone wants to learn to dive in the UK and has no time pressure than im likely to say try a BSAC club.

If someone wants to learn quickly either here or on holiday im likely to say a PADI centre. Abroad especially as choosing BSAC will (i) cost them more and (ii) massive restrict their choice of destinations.

[GaryC]

That is no reason for not pointing the newbie in the BSAC's direction and letting them make their own decision.

When someone comes for advice they are looking for just that. Experienced branch members are in a good position to research the information and pass an educated judgement to the person asking.

Where I live the nearest BSAC school is now about 50 miles away and compare that to the nearest PADI centre at 1 mile and another 5 miles out and loads 25 miles away. The cost of BSAC OD is very expensive at the nearest BSAC centre (this is not as bad in major warm water centres that run both systems) compared to the easy available PADI OW.

I really can't think of 1 reason to send someone to a BSAC school.

So the options are do the BSAC OD with Branch or do the PADI OW at a school as a quick week.

HQ killed the School OD Course off when they allowed equivalence and direct transfer into SD.

If HQ want to revive the School OD course then they have to basically adopt the exact same traning as PADI and allow centres to fastract their Instructors to OWI so that just about any of them issue the qualification. This would allow the OD qual to be cheaper and more available. If all aspects were even then I would recommend people to do the BSAC OD course.

Gary

[TrevorB]

When someone comes for advice they are looking for just that. Experienced branch members are in a good position to research the information and pass an educated judgement to the person asking.

Where I live the nearest BSAC school is now about 50 miles away and compare that to the nearest PADI centre at 1 mile and another 5 miles out and loads 25 miles away. The cost of BSAC OD is very expensive at the nearest BSAC centre (this is not as bad in major warm water centres that run both systems) compared to the easy available PADI OW.

I really can't think of 1 reason to send someone to a BSAC school.

So the options are do the BSAC OD with Branch or do the PADI OW at a school as a quick week.

HQ killed the School OD Course off when they allowed equivalence and direct transfer into SD.

If HQ want to revive the School OD course then they have to basically adopt the exact same traning as PADI and allow centres to fastract their Instructors to OWI so that just about any of them issue the qualification. This would allow the OD qual to be cheaper and more available. If all aspects were even then I would recommend people to do the BSAC OD course.

Gary

Someone posted the description of a PADI Open water diver I cannot find it on their website amongst all the commercial glitz

The BSAC schools course has a similar restriction the branch course

"To train a diver who can dive in open water using 21%, 32% and 36% O2, breathing gas mixes in controlled conditions to a maximum depth of 20m under the supervision of a Centre Instructor or Centre Dive Leader"

I am not sure what business acumen there is at the top of BSAC, but if you imagine seeing your friendly bank manager for say £50K to start a school for Kit, compressor, transport, premises with pool and staff.

You would probably have to sell and deliver 10 OD courses per week to stay alive

I would not think twice about taking this on the answer is no.. I would say that we are not open for business anyone trying would be dead in the water

OD works for branches perhaps where it takes months to train, as I said earlier


Our branch runs OD the course across two weekends in the summer
for half what the schools sell it for, we are only open to University Staff and students and it’s hard to sell Ocean Diver even with all these brakes removed, because of the limitations

If we change to

To train a diver who can dive in open water using 21%, 32% and 36% O2 breathing gas mixes, in controlled conditions to a maximum depth of 20m initially under the supervision of a Dive Manager

The DO could then decide when and where this takes place (the person who knows the individuals) Not a blanket rule.

OD’s could then gain experience in open water to move towards Sports Diver
Open water Crossovers can do this now but not our home trained Ocean Divers Does this make sense ???

[Nigel Hewitt]

I often worry that we have wording problems like this not because we decided to keep something in but because we forgot to take it out.

I have a problem with insisting of somebody being there to make the dive/don't dive decision for ODs, because that's all it really is, because that's just not hard and really sums up to 'Don't do anything that is a big step from something you've done before'.

[TrevorB]

I often worry that we have wording problems like this not because we decided to keep something in but because we forgot to take it out.

I have a problem with insisting of somebody being there to make the dive/don't dive decision for ODs, because that's all it really is, because that's just not hard and really sums up to 'Don't do anything that is a big step from something you've done before'.

When you can let the PADI OW crossovers do it but not the OD's it generates problems and makes OD's feel second class

I hope someone who can make changes read this website

[Richard Whitcombe]

I hope someone who can make changes read this website

HAhahahahahaha

BSAC/NDC responding to things its members suggest. You HAVE to be joking!

[GaryC]

I often worry that we have wording problems like this not because we decided to keep something in but because we forgot to take it out.

I have a problem with insisting of somebody being there to make the dive/don't dive decision for ODs, because that's all it really is, because that's just not hard and really sums up to 'Don't do anything that is a big step from something you've done before'.
I think its much more fundemental to the way BSAC works. It seems to uphold the Branch system, by not allowing 2 OD to dive together. Its like some ancient protectionism that controls.

Its saying, with this certification you can't really go and dive as you will really need an instructor around you or at least a pile of people standing on the shore waiting for you to come back. With BSAC OD, you don't have an open certificate.

It is not allowing someone to make the choice of diving certificate themselves. It is contolling what they do.

However I don't expect anything to change much.
Gary

[Richard Whitcombe]

It forced people to dive through clubs in a time when there was no competition. The problem now they have is there IS competition and that old protectionist scheme is falling apart as people can go elsewhere.

What are the restrictions on sport diver ? Do they need a marshal on the surface too?

OW divers can dive with no support even to new sites. Under BSACs scheme im not even allowed to dive new sites due my diving grade.

[allen]

As a matter of interest, and as I understand it, SAA require both their Elementary Divers and Open Water Divers to dive with Dive Leaders. Club Diver (their equivalent to Sports Diver) is the first grade where two divers of the same level can dive together.

[Ed Howarth]

Its saying, with this certification you can't really go and dive as you will really need an instructor around you or at least a pile of people standing on the shore waiting for you to come back.

You don't need an instructor, neither do you need a pile of people on the shore. Just one competent person who can look at the conditions and make sure that the dive plan is suitable. Something that an OD has had little or no training in.

Ed

[johnskerry]

I notice from your profile you are a PADI (Pay another dollar in) instructor, and from your comments I assume you are trying to drum up a bit of business, which is fair enough, but your comments should be viewed in that light.

You also state that you are unlikely to renew with BSAC!

GOODBYE

[Richard Whitcombe]

I assume you are trying to drum up a bit of business, which is fair enough, but your comments should be viewed in that light.



Any proof of that?

How exactly am im going to be drumming up business when i work in a small town several thousand miles away?! Where have i ever said "come train with me". What possible benefit do i get if someone learns with BSAC or PADI (or SSI or NAUI or SDI or anythone else)? At the end of the day its a qualified diver.

Come on, rather than just personal insults lets hear why you think im going to get any business from this? Add something to the debate rather than just lashing out. Or do you just enjoy throwing around unfounded accusations about people you don't know?

Im a paid up BSAC member and a BSAC instructor. I've been a BSAC member since training 10 years ago. I think that more than entitles me to an opinion on here.

Or would you actually care to address the issues people have mentioned in here such as an artificially restricted OD certification, the artificial barriers BSAC put in meaning their schools can't compete or anything else?

And yes there's a strong chance i wont renew after this year because i believe the agency is out of touch with modern diving, is run by amateurs with policies based solely on personal vendettas and is driving itself into the ground. Again, thats my choice. Ive paid my money and im entitled to decide that myself.

[Richard Whitcombe]

You don't need an instructor, neither do you need a pile of people on the shore. Just one competent person who can look at the conditions and make sure that the dive plan is suitable. Something that an OD has had little or no training in.

Ed

So in short, they cant go diving unless they drag someone else with them to sit on the beach and watch. You don't see that as restrictive at all?!

[Geoff123]

I and my wife joined a bsac club for the training and the costal diving. Although we have a PADI cert, we decided to start from scratch with the training - my wife not being confident in open water (yet).
Training and people are very good and far far superior to any PADI training I have had.
However, I want to dive.
To avoid putting the club DO in a difficult position, I hang up my bsac cap and put on my PADI cap and go diving with local groups. At this time of year the experience cannot be bought, even in the quarries where I am diving.
Training and diving experience are not mutually exclusive. To get experience you must dive.
It does seem a bit restrictive not allowing people to dive, especially when within the system I could only go diving with an instructor. It is after all voluntary and I appreciate that people have to give up their time to dive with novices, but the qualification route does seem drawn out.
Another example is the theory lectures, I cannot take the exam direct; even though I have studied the training pack and am pretty confident (not rocket science after all).
Seems to me that bsac as a dive club is OK for qualified divers, but it could take a couple of years to get there - my wife is happy with this, hence our joining in the first place.
For me it is worth paying for a padi qualification and going diving every week.
Geoff

[bythesea]

I notice from your profile you are a PADI (Pay another dollar in) instructor,

I am a PADI instructor too,in fact all my training to date with the exception of gas blender had been PADI, it's PUT another dollar in BTW.

I am also a member of two BSAC clubs.

If someone came up to me saying my wife and I are going on holiday in a month and wish to learn to dive before we go I would point them to the local PADI school, if they said we want to learn to dive as we want to be able to explore the local waters I would point them to the nearest club.

This is called impartial advice to suit the situation of the individual concerned.

Your comments are an example of the wedge people have tried to remove over the years, we are all divers, it is just diving, not politics, not religion, it is a passtime, a hobby.

[GaryC]

I notice from your profile you are a PADI (Pay another dollar in) instructor, and from your comments I assume you are trying to drum up a bit of business, which is fair enough, but your comments should be viewed in that light.

You also state that you are unlikely to renew with BSAC!

GOODBYE
Wow caught bank to rights. I have a PADI Instructor manual on the bottom shelve. I will have to go and repent and get 20 lashes.

[PeteM]

If someone came up to me saying my wife and I are going on holiday in a month and wish to learn to dive before we go I would point them to the local PADI school, if they said we want to learn to dive as we want to be able to explore the local waters I would point them to the nearest club.

All my non technical training has been with BSAC and I only have instructor tickets with BSAC and I would advise exactly the same (and in fact have).

[johnskerry]

You are the one saying how much better PADI is not me, is getting a dive certificate all that maters to you?

Sure you can pay your money get a PADI OW cert then go off to stoney dive off down to 20 Mts or more (who’s watching) in 4deg, get a free flow or just **** yourself a bolt for the surface. But does that mater? Let’s face it Schools and professional instructors don’t give credit.

The BSAC is a club, and you join a club and instructors are volunteers, there is rightly a concern for the safety of it members, or there certainly should be.
When as sometimes there is a problem with giving new members the chance to build up their experience. That is the problem that should be addressed not throwing the baby out with the bath water as you seem to be advocating.

There are many things I disagree with BSAC about, including how experience dives should route their hoses. But the care for new divers is not one of them, and you are advocating BSAC go in completely the wrong direction.

As for those who just wish to get a cert so they can dive on holiday, they are probably best to go the PADI route as they are not going to make good club members, but if they get the bug and then wish to continue diving in the UK, a BSAC branch is the best place for them.

15 years of BSAC membership
John

[Ron MacRae]

However, I want to dive.
To avoid putting the club DO in a difficult position, I hang up my bsac cap and put on my PADI cap and go diving with local groups.

Geoff,
If you havn't already done so have a discussion with your DO. At least make him aware of your issues.

I'm DO of a club and can't get any bugger to go diving with me.:o

In the two or three clubs I know personally I don't see ODs not getting to dive.

Ron.

[Richard Whitcombe]

You are the one saying how much better PADI is not me, is getting a dive certificate all that maters to you?


Its what matters to people that want to learn to dive.


Sure you can pay your money get a PADI OW cert then go off to stoney dive off down to 20 Mts or more (who’s watching) in 4deg, get a free flow or just **** yourself a bolt for the surface.


Likewise you can get a BSAC OD, go off to stoney, dive to 20m or more, get a free flow or **** yourself and bolt to the surface.

Why do you think BSAC training makes people immune to this? More to the point, why dont any incident reports from anywhere in the world show any evidence at all for this happening ?


But does that mater? Let’s face it Schools and professional instructors don’t give credit.

So intructors dont care what happens to their students? Really?


The BSAC is a club, and you join a club and instructors are volunteers, there is rightly a concern for the safety of it members, or there certainly should be.

So instructors through schools and other agencies don't care at all about the safety of their students after courses? Really? Only BSAC clubs are kind and caring, everyone else is a ruthless capitalist?
Again, why don't any incident reports for any part of the world back up your claim ? - none of them are showing commercially trained divers dying in their droves.


When as sometimes there is a problem with giving new members the chance to build up their experience. That is the problem that should be addressed not throwing the baby out with the bath water as you seem to be advocating.

..and the proof of these incidents happening is where exactly?

But the care for new divers is not one of them, and you are advocating BSAC go in completely the wrong direction.

Why should BSAC take a stance that artificially restricts its qualification which hinders BSAC commercially AND hinders club recruits when there isn't a shred of evidence the way everyone else does it is dangerous?


As for those who just wish to get a cert so they can dive on holiday, they are probably best to go the PADI route as they are not going to make good club members,

Really? So they want to dive on holiday and are therefore forced to only do that for life. They're not allowed to decide to try UK diving after that?


but if they get the bug and then wish to continue diving in the UK, a BSAC branch is the best place for them.

IF the branch teaches them in a sensible time scale and IF the branch has diving suitable to ocean diver and IF the club goes diving at all (lots dont bother that much).

My club used to love PADI qualified members who qualified abroad - you're getting a diver that doesnt need training and is keen to dive.

The OD and OW courses are near identical in what they cover. OD doesn't provide anything extra so the restriction in it is senseless.


15 years of BSAC membership
John

Lovely. So its a "ive been here forever so im right". Ever considered a place on the NDC?

[johnskerry]

Fine lets have no restrictions, let’s have it your way, after all a ocean dive has done 5 dives with a instructor in open water, in fact why have any further restriction at all 70Mts on air as long as your hog looping it will all just be fine. But it’s all right because you are such a caring instructor that you are encouraging two inexperience divers to go off on their own. BSAC old fashion rules are just holding them back.
There is no evidence that anything will ever go wrong so it’s all OK, don’t worry it’s just fine.
Dream On John

[Jen - Winged Blob]

The focus here seems to be almost entirely on the restrictions (or not) of the different agencies, the role and decision-making of DOs and instructors, and in dissecting the minutiae of rules and regulations which are applied by the above.

In all of this, the mindset of the actual OD/OW diver appears to have been suffocated. They seem to be regarded as some brainless zombie, unable to understand the simplest of criteria for safe diving. Surely they must be brought into the equation, and given credit for a modicum of reasoning and common sense in how they approach their diving? On first qualifying, I wouldn’t have dreamed of rushing off with another just-qualified diver and immediately charging down to 20m just because I had the ticket to do so, and I won’t be the only one by a long way.

Surely any good instructor will have explained the potential dangers to students well enough to have ensured their resulting awareness and recognition of such dangers, and their observance of safe diving conduct in the light of that? If the newly qualified diver is determined to ignore these things and bulldoze through safety considerations, then all the clarity in the world regarding rules and regulations, isn’t going to help.

[Richard Whitcombe]

Fine lets have no restrictions, let’s have it your way, after all a ocean dive has done 5 dives with a instructor in open water, in fact why have any further restriction at all 70Mts on air as long as your hog looping it will all just be fine. But it’s all right because you are such a caring instructor that you are encouraging two inexperience divers to go off on their own. BSAC old fashion rules are just holding them back.

You've just lost the plot completely. Where has anyone said do that? People are questioning 1 specific clause which massively restricts the qualification. Its a restriction the doesn't exist for any of the major agencies in the world offering equivalent qualification. Yet despite your claims of doom and gloom there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest these divers are going out and having incidents. Not in the UK, not in the rest of the world.
What proof do you have that these divers are going to go out, suddenly ignore their training and common sense and get hurt? Where are the facts to back up your claims?

Are BSAC ODs somehow more stupid than the rest of the world so are a special case and can't be trusted?! Admittedly BSAC is an agency which doesn't even trust its own dive leaders/instructors to dive somewhere unless they've been there before but again in my view thats pointless.

You seem to have contributed nothing to this thread at all except over-reaction and nothing constructive. If you want to defend BSAC blindly then that's your call but most people are able to give valid reasons for stance. You've failed to.

[Geoff123]

Andover is a bit far for me, otherwise I would volunteer every time (except mid week - got to work).
The club DO is every understanding, can't fault him (or any other of the higher echelons within the club) in any of his actions or for the reasons why.
We had a chat about organised dives within the club and no problems there - lots of instructors available so no problem with rules.
He also has no problem with me diving as a padi diver at weekends.
My comments were not directed at the club but at the system that raises so much concerned debate i.e. this very thread.
If I am down in your area hope I could contact your club as a guest diver (another interesting thread on this forum).
Geoff;)

[MattS]

For clarity, the thing I won’t lose sleep over is P*** OW diving together.Thanks for clearing that up Edward.

[Nigel Hewitt]

Sure you can pay your money get a PADI OW cert then go off to stoney dive off down to 20 Mts or more (who’s watching) in 4deg, get a free flow or just **** yourself a bolt for the surface.
This is covered in my old OW manual and practised under an instructors supervision.

I struggle to see how having somebody sitting in the car shivering (surface cover) while we ODs dive is going to help us with that one.

OK looking back through the book there is dive planning stuff in OW that we don't bother to tell them in OD. If we added a lecture to OD we could more than cover it as it doesn't have to be hugely complicated.

Frankly as this thread progresses the OW-SD progression looks better and better. Because you have a card we recognise you can get into the water lots and most of SD is easy if you're good in the water.

[Ian Wetherall]

The focus here seems to be almost entirely on the restrictions (or not) of the different agencies, the role and decision-making of DOs and instructors, and in dissecting the minutiae of rules and regulations which are applied by the above.

In all of this, the mindset of the actual OD/OW diver appears to have been suffocated. They seem to be regarded as some brainless zombie, unable to understand the simplest of criteria for safe diving. Surely they must be brought into the equation, and given credit for a modicum of reasoning and common sense in how they approach their diving? On first qualifying, I wouldn’t have dreamed of rushing off with another just-qualified diver and immediately charging down to 20m just because I had the ticket to do so, and I won’t be the only one by a long way.

Surely any good instructor will have explained the potential dangers to students well enough to have ensured their resulting awareness and recognition of such dangers, and their observance of safe diving conduct in the light of that? If the newly qualified diver is determined to ignore these things and bulldoze through safety considerations, then all the clarity in the world regarding rules and regulations, isn’t going to help.


Hurrah some one has raised a point far more eloquently than I can put it.


Me and SWMBO are both O/D (with a bit o PADI thrown in from her) and we do dive as a couple .
We are both reasonably intelligent (her more n me ) and we'd like to think that we can make valued judgements as to when and what to do .
All the problems I have encountered in the water; reverse ear and free flows were all under the supervision of our OWI and consequently have had no real drama whilst things have gone wrong.
Maybe Ive been lucky with this "baptism of fire" but from reading this thread it seems O/D's are treated like morons incapable of thought from certain quarters.
I can understand not letting people loose with only 5 dives under their belt but hey we are big boys n girls (some more than others :) ) so maybe the policy should be more fluid with more latitude given depending on individuals ability/ experience .

[Fred]

If someone came up to me saying my wife and I are going on holiday in a month and wish to learn to dive before we go I would point them to the local PADI school,


Can anyone tell me what the reaction would be if someone promoted BSAC on a PADI owned forum??

[PeteM]

Can anyone tell me what the reaction would be if someone promoted BSAC on a PADI owned forum??

It is completely irrelevant if other forums prevent freedom of speech, be that PADI, YD, or anyone else.

These forums provide an open and largely unrestricted discussion forum, check the Acceptable Usage Policy (http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=987&sectionTitle=Acceptable+Usage+Policy), if someone thinks PADI or anyone else does something better than us they are perfectly at liberty to say so. If you look back through the archives you will see instances were council members have been chastised for attempting to stop "anti" BSAC discussion.

[Ron MacRae]

Andover is a bit far for me, otherwise I would volunteer every time (except mid week - got to work).
The club DO is every understanding, can't fault him (or any other of the higher echelons within the club) in any of his actions or for the reasons why.
We had a chat about organised dives within the club and no problems there - lots of instructors available so no problem with rules.
He also has no problem with me diving as a padi diver at weekends.
My comments were not directed at the club but at the system that raises so much concerned debate i.e. this very thread.
If I am down in your area hope I could contact your club as a guest diver (another interesting thread on this forum).
Geoff;)

Geoff,
You're welcome any time. Always nice to convert virtual people into real people.:)

I think you answered your own question. The rules are only rules and don't really stop divers diving as there are normally enough more experienced divers about.

The system is, IMO, set up to stop 2 newy qualified divers, who perhaps did all their training in a quary, going off and doing sea dives on their own in strong tides. BSAC forbids this and PADI does not. In reality neither would think it a good idea.

As said elsewhere PADI train you and let you go, that's their business model. BSAC try to get you diving in a club environment. Unless you end up with a right bunch of plonkers the latter should be safer in a UK environment.

Ron.

P.S. !0+ years ago I was that diver. My son and I qualified and then went diving without any DM as no-one told us we shouldn't.:)

[GaryC]

The system is, IMO, set up to stop 2 newy qualified divers, who perhaps did all their training in a quary, going off and doing sea dives on their own in strong tides. BSAC forbids this and PADI does not. In reality neither would think it a good idea.

As said elsewhere PADI train you and let you go, that's their business model. BSAC try to get you diving in a club environment. Unless you end up with a right bunch of plonkers the latter should be safer in a UK environment.

I think you may be incorrect there. My understanding is that PADI allow 2 OW divers to dive togher in similar conditions to that in which the learnt to dive. If they learnt to dive in a quarry then they would not have approval to dive in the sea in strong tides?
But I am sure someone will correct me if i am wrong.

Gary

[bythesea]

Technically that is right Gary but who is going to stop them?

I think it is time we stopped assuming novice divers are brainless gimps, on the whole they are sentient beings capable at looking at a body of water and deciding yey or ney.

[nigelhoath]

It is completely irrelevant if other forums prevent freedom of speech, be that PADI, YD, or anyone else.

Pete just like to add for me being a PADI diver makes perfect sense and being a BSAC club member is almost impossible but the openness, helpfulness, and goodwill shown here has led me to promote BSAC to people in different circumstances to my own. However if this place, the face of BSAC for me and many others, had come over as a restrictive environment I would have been much less keen to even get close to it. Please keep up the good work one and all :cool:

[Nigel Hewitt]

I think you may be incorrect there. My understanding is that PADI allow 2 OW divers to dive together in similar conditions to that in which the learnt to dive. If they learnt to dive in a quarry then they would not have approval to dive in the sea in strong tides?
But I am sure someone will correct me if i am wrong.
I've only ever heard that one quoted in BSAC circles. I trained in the UK and did some beach dives and some ice cold quarry dives to finish it. I reckon that set me up for most 'conditions' here.

The other thing you hear in BSAC circles is "AOW? Advanced? Ho Ho Ho."
I did Drysuit dive, Narked dive (known as Deep but they give you a trick to do to prove how off-line your brain is), Night dive and some other RIB dives. OK it ain't BSAC Advanced (Trip planner diver) but I'd love to do some of those with our shiny new SDs.

I like the BSAC system. I've spent the last few pool sessions as a pusher giving people their first fix (try-dive) and watching them love it. I'm happy to put them into our OD-SD machine because it is all geared up to spit out SDs. What worries me is hearing, again and again, of people in other places having progress moving that far.

[johnskerry]

Constructive would be agreeing with you I assume ?

You have not taken on board anything of the other comments made on this thread.

All you keep saying is the ODs should be able to dive without any restrictions from their branch; apparently that’s what PADI do, according to you. Also apparently the statistics from around the world support your claim.

I personally find nothing constructive in any of your propositions; in fact I think you are being very cavalier to say the least.

You have no knowledge of the diver who asked the question, more importantly neither do you have any knowledge of any new ODs or OW divers who may read this. Yet you are advising them to just go diving, when you should be advising them to speak to their DO or DM.

The fact is new divers have no experience of the conditions or their reaction to them.

I have had new divers as have others who have got extremely anxious and have bailed out, it’s not a problem and they move on but it happens! And I like any other experience diver is happy to cut the dive short or even lift them if that is required. But what happens with two inexperience divers, one happy to stay longer and go deeper, the other getting more and more anxious! At worst it an accident waiting to happen at best one of the divers packs up.
I do not agree that PADI DMs are happy to let OW diver just go off on their own, well not the ones I have meet anyway.

However if you are right then BSAC has got it right with the restriction on OD, it’s the other organisations that need to come in line.

If BASC were as cavalier as you we could well find HSE and HM Gov taking a far more restrictive approach.

You should not assume BSAC have always got in wrong just because you have a grump on over hog looping.

John

[ChristianG]

What worries me is hearing, again and again, of people in other places having progress moving that far.
Nigel, do you mean BSAC trained divers? I think you need to embellish that somewhat. :D

Let me add my tuppence ha'penny to what Nigel Hoath said (welcome aboard again Nigel). I, too, am not BSAC trained but in my various travels I have never come across a BSAC trained diver that has not been entirely competent. Yes, I'm sure that there are incompetents around, it's just that I've never met one.

Reminds me of a little story: a long time ago now I was the person telling a couple of BSAC divers brand new to my neck of the woods and brand new members of my club how we did business aboard the good ship TUG II. When I got to the bit about decoing the lady of the couple looked at me and asked quizzically "but how do you actually know we're on deco?"

"Because I can see you", I replied.

[Richard Whitcombe]

Can anyone tell me what the reaction would be if someone promoted BSAC on a PADI owned forum??

Would you rather that when people come on here asking for advice people don't advise them on the best option for them and only mention certain things?
Where's the integrity - people should be allowed to give impartial advice without towing some party line when it isnt in the best interests of the person asking.

[Richard Whitcombe]

If they learnt to dive in a quarry then they would not have approval to dive in the sea in strong tides?
But I am sure someone will correct me if i am wrong.

Gary

It's worded like BSAC, you're qualified in conditions similar or better than those or training. Then "further orientation is advised" for going beyond that. It's not another course as such, could be something like hiring a local guide the first time you go somewhere new. Someone that knows the entrance/exit/currents etc.
They dont NEED to do that (its a recommendation) and they certainly don't need approval - its simple advised to ask someone familiar with the conditions to make sure you're ok the first time or 2.

[Nigel Hewitt]

"Because I can see you", I replied.
I hate you...

It's been like yoghurt off Brighton all winter although it seems to be improving now.

[Richard Whitcombe]

Constructive would be agreeing with you I assume ?

You have not taken on board anything of the other comments made on this thread.

Your sole contribution on the thread has been personal attacks on anyone. Nothing else!


All you keep saying is the ODs should be able to dive without any restrictions
from their branch; apparently that’s what PADI do, according to you.

Its not "what PADI do". Its what every major training agency on the planet does.


Also apparently the statistics from around the world support your claim.

Correct


I personally find nothing constructive in any of your propositions; in fact I think you are being very cavalier to say the least.

Really, so making suggestions as to how you can improve the OD course, make it more attractive to people and help BSAC compete commercially isn't constructive? And how exactly is being cavalier suggesting to adopt world wide standards with a proven safety record?


You have no knowledge of the diver who asked the question, more importantly neither do you have any knowledge of any new ODs or OW divers who may read this.

..and part of the training involves common sense and thinking. Them learning, thinking, making their own decisions based on their training and experience.
Why are you constantly making out new divers are completely and utterly thick? Is the training you give them THAT poor that you don't trust your own divers to go and do anything for themselves without being spoonfed?
Are BSAC divers a "special kind of thick"?

You need to start giving new divers the credit they deserve. Stop treating them as useless muppets.

As for do i have any knowledge of new ODs or OW divers - ive got experience based on teaching hundreds of them and reinforced by the incident reports (or lack of).


Yet you are advising them to just go diving, when you should be advising them to speak to their DO or DM.

You advise them to decide what to do themselves without needing a babysitter. We;re not planning some expedition to the moon here. This is simple stuff. People aren't thick.


The fact is new divers have no experience of the conditions or their reaction to them.

They've trained. People arent qualifying then going jumping into 40m in a 3mm shortie in winter on a spring tide. It simply isnt happening. They're realising conditions are different then planning conservative, safe dive plans to get used to them.
Again if someone is worried that his new divers are going to go out and do something moronic after certification or cant be trusted the instructor is at fault. THATS a training problem.


But what happens with two inexperience divers, one happy to stay longer and go deeper, the other getting more and more anxious!

Then they abort. Again, why are you assuming these people are completely stupid? Give them some credit.


At worst it an accident waiting to happen at best one of the divers packs up.

So you have the stats to back up the claim that it is indeed a problem?


I do not agree that PADI DMs are happy to let OW diver just go off on their own, well not the ones I have meet anyway.

What has a DM got to do with an OW diver? You really have no idea what the role entails do you?


However if you are right then BSAC has got it right with the restriction on OD, it’s the other organisations that need to come in line.


Yes. BSAC is right. The rest of the planet is wrong. Despite several million dives world wide being conducted by them safely the statistics are all lies.
Have you any idea how idiotic that argument is?


If BASC were as cavalier as you we could well find HSE and HM Gov taking a far more restrictive approach.

Really? So HSE/Government are getting more restrictive on PADI divers diving together, clamping down on their training standards and demanding a restriction of their qualification?
Oh. They're not. I wonder why that is? Is it maybe that there is no reason for them to do so?


You should not assume BSAC have always got in wrong just because you have a grump on over hog looping.

Where the hell have i mentioned hog looping? Also what about the other people here PADI trained, non-instructors who also agree? Are they all wrong too?

[Fred]

people should be allowed to give impartial advice without towing some party line when it isnt in the best interests of the person asking.

An example of impartial advice ?


I really can't think of 1 reason to send someone to a BSAC school.

Gary

[Nigel Hewitt]

An example of impartial advice ?
This is a forum. Forums are all about opinions.

I've been introducing the idea of OD/SD/etc. to try divers and trying to make an excuse for a non-qualification that doesn't actually let you out of school.

My best trick so far is to describe OD as 'safe to take diving' while SD is 'safe to go diving' and they seem to take it well.
My conscience on the other hand...

[LHG]

Your sole contribution on the thread has been personal attacks on anyone. Nothing else!



Its not "what PADI do". Its what every major training agency on the planet does.



Correct



Really, so making suggestions as to how you can improve the OD course, make it more attractive to people and help BSAC compete commercially isn't constructive? And how exactly is being cavalier suggesting to adopt world wide standards with a proven safety record?



..and part of the training involves common sense and thinking. Them learning, thinking, making their own decisions based on their training and experience.
Why are you constantly making out new divers are completely and utterly thick? Is the training you give them THAT poor that you don't trust your own divers to go and do anything for themselves without being spoonfed?
Are BSAC divers a "special kind of thick"?

You need to start giving new divers the credit they deserve. Stop treating them as useless muppets.

As for do i have any knowledge of new ODs or OW divers - ive got experience based on teaching hundreds of them and reinforced by the incident reports (or lack of).



You advise them to decide what to do themselves without needing a babysitter. We;re not planning some expedition to the moon here. This is simple stuff. People aren't thick.



They've trained. People arent qualifying then going jumping into 40m in a 3mm shortie in winter on a spring tide. It simply isnt happening. They're realising conditions are different then planning conservative, safe dive plans to get used to them.
Again if someone is worried that his new divers are going to go out and do something moronic after certification or cant be trusted the instructor is at fault. THATS a training problem.




Then they abort. Again, why are you assuming these people are completely stupid? Give them some credit.



So you have the stats to back up the claim that it is indeed a problem?



What has a DM got to do with an OW diver? You really have no idea what the role entails do you?



Yes. BSAC is right. The rest of the planet is wrong. Despite several million dives world wide being conducted by them safely the statistics are all lies.
Have you any idea how idiotic that argument is?



Really? So HSE/Government are getting more restrictive on PADI divers diving together, clamping down on their training standards and demanding a restriction of their qualification?
Oh. They're not. I wonder why that is? Is it maybe that there is no reason for them to do so?



Where the hell have i mentioned hog looping? Also what about the other people here PADI trained, non-instructors who also agree? Are they all wrong too?


To be fair, Richard has spoken the most sense out of most people on this thread. He's right, we don't need a babysitter and has acknowledged that we would need to assess each dive before just jumping in. I don't get the stigma attached to Ocean Divers - we might not have as much experience and most, but that doesn't mean we are thick, careless or lack common sense. As I've said, we wouldn't go alone until we've had a few dives and are familiar with the dive sites. Once we are familiar, what's the big deal? What difference does it make whether there is someone on the surface or not? I'm not an idiot, I'm not going to do anything that I think is dangerous. If anything were to happen, my buddy and I have had the training to get eachother out of a sticky situation and at regulated sites there is always help close by - not that we are likely to get into a sticky situation because we only want a swim about / practice.

P.S. I've had confirmation from a few sites that have said they will let us dive together as long as our DO gives us permission to go there alone (seems like an ok to me - how would they know?) ;)

[ChristianG]

I hate you...

It's been like yoghurt off Brighton all winter although it seems to be improving now.
Chuckle - you're welcome.

Curiously enough we have best visibility in winter hereabouts. Mind, our winter might be somewhat different to yours, sea temperature rarely gets below about 16C. In our winter the prevailing winds are from the West and so the sea often takes on the appearance of glass. In our summer the more knowing amongst us tend to try to get on the first boat out, usually "cast off" is 0730 or even earlier, that's because Summer's prevailing Southerlies haven't set in yet, and they sure can howl sometimes. Beating back against a prevailing Southerly can be no fun at all and it's a very good part of the reasons why we generally prefer hard boats, even as Club boats.

[johnskerry]

Your sole contribution on the thread has been personal attacks on anyone.

Well I apologise for that if that is the impression you have, to make it clear my comments only relate to your posts

instructor is at fault.

Yes I agree?

Where the hell have i mentioned hog looping?
__________________
2009:- 361 dives with a hog loop. Number of strangulations:- zero.
2010:- 350+ dives with hog loop ranging from 3m to 100m

Number of student's heads exploded when seeing the sheer complexity of my hog loop to date:- 0


Quite clearly you don’t even read your own posts, but then you know it all so why would you?

[GaryC]

An example of impartial advice ?
Not quite sure what you are saying there?

Just for information, I give advice to those that ask for it. I think its unbiased but then I would. I have never worked for a centre either BSAC or PADI, and I have never even been on a PADI course. I have never crossed over and started as Novice 1 I think. (Outside BSAC the only agency I have dealt with is RYA) I have been a DO in the past, although not at this moment in time.

If someone were to ask me whether they should do the PADI OW in a week or the BSAC OD in a week then I would point them in the direction of the local PADI School. Why, well based on the facts that I know, its cheaper, easier to get the right date, it does fit snuggly into the BSAC system AND the PADI system. It is known over the world where as BSAC OD is not.

And to those that had previously worked in (or indeed maybe owned) a BSAC centre in the warmer climes, if you don't like people pointing clients at the PADI school, at least give us one good reason why not.

Gary

PS my advice to anyone would be do do OD in a branch. But if the option is only between OD or OW in a school, well you know the rest.

[Richard Whitcombe]

Quite clearly you don’t even read your own posts, but then you know it all so why would you?

And the relevance of quoting a signature on a completely unrelated thread is what exactly? Find a post, ANY post on here where a single person has mentioned anything to do with that.

Got those incident reports yet to back up your accusations of cavalier and proof that all those little ODs will get terribly hurt as they cant look after themselves yet?

[ChristianG]

you're qualified in conditions similar or better than those of your training
The highlighted words are mine and better reflect the meaning of the clause. No names, no pack drill since I've often heard this clause used.

But - just think about what the phrase "or better than" means. Whose standards, or better still "interpretation of standards" are we talking of here? That of the original training agency? Say BSAC in Britain with sea training included? In that case I would suggest that the diver could easily experience difficulties in the gin clear, bright waters of the tropics. Many would suggest, naively perhaps, that this diver would handle those tropical conditions quite easily. But what would that diver know, as just one example, of up-wellings, down-wellings and even currents that go in opposite directions none of which have anything at all to do with tides?

The whole concept of that clause is as complete a can of worms as you can get.

[garethwoodruff]

Ok a few observations:

BSAC has put a restriction on Ocean divers which causes some difficulty to some divers who are at that grade, BSAC as an organisation are entitled to their own opinion and can decide on its own risk profile. We have tried competing with PADI before and we can't, they are clearly the primary commercial trainer.

The view is that Ocean divers should have surface cover and the provision of a dive manager, I see both sides of the argument.

Its similar to the view that sports divers should be BSAC members, if you don't like it, don't teach it.

I must admit, looking at the various views on this thread, the forum is commendable in its openness, although potentially to the detriment of BSAC commercially. Its another example of where commercial argument is not always the primary consideration, doing what BSAC feels right is.

[bythesea]

Int diving great, bringing everyone closer together.

It is just breathing underwater people, it is not difficult and certainly not worth getting you knickers is such a twist about...

...now....group hug....

[Mike Halligan]

But what would that diver know, as just one example, of up-wellings, down-wellings and even currents that go in opposite directions none of which have anything at all to do with tides?

Not British waters in general, but some Scottish waters very definitely. :D :D

[Ron MacRae]

The highlighted words are mine and better reflect the meaning of the clause. No names, no pack drill since I've often heard this clause used.

But - just think about what the phrase "or better than" means. Whose standards, or better still "interpretation of standards" are we talking of here? That of the original training agency? Say BSAC in Britain with sea training included? In that case I would suggest that the diver could easily experience difficulties in the gin clear, bright waters of the tropics. Many would suggest, naively perhaps, that this diver would handle those tropical conditions quite easily. But what would that diver know, as just one example, of up-wellings, down-wellings and even currents that go in opposite directions none of which have anything at all to do with tides?

The whole concept of that clause is as complete a can of worms as you can get.

I agree the phrase "or better" is dangerous. I do 99% of my diving around the UK but have occasionally been to places with gin clear bright water. I find the biggest problem is not going too deep as due to the sunlight it's easy to head on down without realising the depth, you suddenly realise you've been at 35m for 20 mins and have a deco oblication you were not expecting. :o

Ron.

[Jen - Winged Blob]

However, there is a another bit in the OW book that reads:

"Keep in mind that when you're planning to dive in an area for the first time, you want to get an orientation to the local area from, or better yet, dive under the supervision of, an experienced local diver."

Sensible advice, I would say.

[Fred]

Not quite sure what you are saying there?

if you don't like people pointing clients at the PADI school, at least give us one good reason why not.

Gary



The OP is looking to finish is BSAC course and gain experience within a limited timescale, who better to finish this for him than a BSAC school who could also help with extra dives to gain experience along with any dives his club could also offer?

The problem of slow training by clubs is often mentioned on this forum, a liason by clubs with BSAC schools would be of advantage to both.

[Richard Whitcombe]

The OP is looking to finish is BSAC course and gain experience within a limited timescale, who better to finish this for him than a BSAC school who could also help with extra dives to gain experience along with any dives his club could also offer?

The problem of slow training by clubs is often mentioned on this forum, a liason by clubs with BSAC schools would be of advantage to both.

If he an actually find a BSAC school.... That doesn't solve the problem of diving after qualification either. BSAC still restrict that because clearly they dont trust their trainees!

[ChristianG]

I agree the phrase "or better" is dangerous. (I) have occasionally been to places with gin clear bright water. I find the biggest problem is not going too deep as due to the sunlight it's easy to head on down without realising the depth, you suddenly realise you've been at 35m for 20 mins and have a deco oblication you were not expecting.
Yup, been there, done that. For me it's exacerbated by the fact that I commonly use the voluntary tubal opening method of ear clearance and so I don't even have a physical signal (hand to nose) to tell me that I'm going deeper.

Today I always, but always, carefully set the computer to tell me when I get to my MOD, given that I've also been caught out by forgetting to do that.

My worst moment for that was years ago in the Oz Coral Sea when a mate of mine, a US submariner specialist in listening for other boats, but that's another story, and I decided on 50 metres as the MOD with an immediate and gradual ascent. I only realised that my then Aqualand hadn't pinged me when I looked up and he's gesturing to me with massive hand movements that I should ascend. He's at 50 m and I, as I found out when I looked at my gauges, was spot on at 75 m. Umm, yes indeedy, that was on air - the devil gases hadn't yet remotely reached the mainstream.

Ooooops!!! Fortunately (or not), I lived to tell the tale. :o

[Dave White]

I have read a lot of the posts on this thread and noticed the debate regarding PADI and BSAC qualifications...I know it always arises.

Initially as an inexperienced diver I looked for these to help me decide how I should go about learning to dive and which path to follow. It's only now that I realise how over the years my attitude changed and my direction was sub-consciously dictated by experience....so my brief history.

At around school-leaving age a friend of mine invited me to a scuba club to learn....I was very excited at the prospect. I went for several sessions expecting some feedback, some tests, some progression...just something really to keep my interest aroused. It didn't happen and I soon lost interest.

Fast forward to age 33, my interest was re-ignited on a holiday to the Dom Republic when a PADI instructor asked me if I'd like to dive. Did a short classroom and pool stint and then a sea dive from a boat with a truly inspiring instructor from Austria. Since then I desperately wanted to dive again, the usual problems of time and money prevented me for some time and mainly working night shifts still poses a problem to club nights etc. I am also completing a degree at the same time as working 50+ hrs per week and have a young family as well so time is still elusive. I finally got to complete dive number 2 on holiday last September in Cyprus (so from first going to a club, 18yrs to first scuba experience then another 6 years wait to repeat it).

Now at 39 (40 this summer) I have managed to get myself through a PADI OW course in 2 pool sessions and 1 academic session (the shop were very accomodating, flexible and helpful). I have just to do my 2 weekends of open water diving and I will be OW qualified and dry suit specialist qualified at the same time. I am also still interested in joing BSAC as well (hence joining the forum), because I can then be involved in 2 clubs/organistaions and increase my chances of trips/buddies availability. 2 heads are better than one...surely this is the same with qualifications, I will continue to buy quick fixes through PADI to progress and also learn the more in-depth or tecnical aspects at a steadier pace through BSAC.

I was also told (third hand to be fair) by a member of BSAC to do a PADI course first so that I am allowed to dive and then join BSAC to learn more about safety and gain better control through practice.

Both sides have something to offer and I do not understand why they cannot be mixed to suit any individuals requirements.

Why did I finally choose to go the PADI route?...BSAC member advice, tailored to fit todays hectic lifestyles, almost instant qualification, I can go and dive where I want when I want if a buddy is available. I have already bought all of my own kit and I am desperate to make up for some lost time, I have always wanted to dive...being able to has always been the problem and a lot of us struggle with time and/or money to make it happen. The real defining factor is what can be offered to make it easier.

Weekends work better than the week for most....if you work shifts you cannot commit to anything Mon-Fri simply because you are committed to the office. Costs are much lower at BSAC, however who is willing to offer their time (free of charge) to offer diver training to all and sundry at various hours and days...instructors have to work in another business as well usually. Remarkably I also found out that many PADI instructors teach without any form of salary...may surprise you all as well, but they do it for a shop in return for gear at trade prices because there isn't much profit to be made (the overheads of a shop are high).

I am keen to join BSAC and will hopefully do this in a couple of weeks, I don't want to give the impression that I rate any organisation higher than another. I just want to give a newbie view to some of you higher up the ladder in BSAC in the hope that some information can be used positively. We are all individuals and I understand my opinion is just one of many - none of us have too much money or too much time so these are your greatest obstacles in terms of gaining and retaining members. Everyone will ask a single question regardless of the subject matter....what's in it for me?

[Ed Howarth]

So in short, they cant go diving unless they drag someone else with them to sit on the beach and watch. You don't see that as restrictive at all?!
Yes. It's restrictive. In the same way as not allowing them to go to 50 m on trimix might be viewed as restrictive.

I was just correcting your exaggeration.

Ed

[Richard Whitcombe]

Yes. It's restrictive. In the same way as not allowing them to go to 50 m on trimix might be viewed as restrictive.


Really? So why does no major agency in the world have any problem or incidents with their non-restrictive qualification.

I can't see any justification at all for keeping this clause which devalues the OD qualification when compared to any other.

[Gareth]

Really? So why does no major agency in the world have any problem or incidents with their non-restrictive qualification.

I can't see any justification at all for keeping this clause which devalues the OD qualification when compared to any other.

I may be wrong Richard, but I think the vast majority (all?) of the other agencies are commercial organisations, selling a service. Once the course is complete that is the end of the matter, the instructor will in all probability never see the customer again. Unless of course, they sell further training (which for at least PADI) see as an important element of instructor training. Ideally the student will go from course to course. OW & AOW are often bundled together, with a big push to get the student to do RD as soon as possible after AOW. The relationship stops when the student doesn't want to buy further courses.

With the BSAC, the model is totally different. Once trained, the objective is to retain them in branch & go diving with them. So that the instructor (& others) can dive with them again & again. The diver I train, dives with me, my friends / girlfriend / wife / lover / father / sister / mother / son / daughter. I hope the students becomes a friend & long term buddy.

So, with the vast majority of agencies the objective is to sell a course, & then subsiquent courses, once the student has stopped buying courses the instructor/school moves to a new client & forgets the first.
With BSAC the objective is to teach a student with the end objective that they become buddies & friends.

Every agency has restrictions, based on the each agencies individual assessment & objectives. BSAC assess that dives requiring decompression stops are acceptable once Sports Diver is achieved. PADI assess that dives that require decompession stops are too dangerous, even for their instructors.

Does this mean that PADI don't believe that there instructors don't have the skills to safely use a decompression table that involves compulsary stops, or that it is far to complicated for them, or that there bouyancy skills are insufficent. I think not, like the vast majority of divers, they have these skills, its just that there agencies risk assessment says no, or that this is a commercial risk to far for PADI.

As they say different strokes for different folks.

Different agencies have different objectives/expectations & different restrictions on what there divers can do. None are directly equivelent, most provide 'similar' training.

Gareth

Gareth

[Orphus]

Absolutely agree with Dave here.

This is exactly the route I am taking. Love the idea of "free" ongoing training in the club environment and the inclusion of some skills over and above the standard PADI courses but wasn't too keen on the idea of weeks and weeks of training before hitting the open water. I know it isn't always this way, but you never know till you commit to a club.

J

[TrevorB]

Orphus

I can see where you are coming from, but a fully committed BSAC branch can deliver. Why not visit one and see if they will provide you with some training dates of when things will happen. If they are a branch that runs on all four cylinders then that’s not a big ask. If they are just a group that goes diving and trainees get in the way then try another branch, all our BSAC branches are not the same.

Sorry about the diving under supervision no matter how committed the DO is there is nothing he or she can do about that, it needs a leap of faith in BSAC training by the NDC

Ocean Diver really is a good course and has more in it than Open Water
You will come out with an understanding of Nitrox and limited use
Dry suit training and Sports diver is just a natural extension of everything you have learnt at Ocean Diver

[GaryC]

Ocean Diver really is a good course and has more in it than Open Water
You will come out with an understanding of Nitrox and limited use
Dry suit training and Sports diver is just a natural extension of everything you have learnt at Ocean Diver

Dry suit training and Sports Diver following on from OW just as well. The differences are minimal in the content.

The benifits of doing OD with a Branch are that you get consolidation of the skills learnt. You can make friends with others learning at the same time. Some of these friendships last years.

Learning in a branch is more than just a diving course, it usually has a social site to it as well.

If learning at a school is a must because of timescales for a holiday or such then doing OW in a week makes sense, othewise doing OD slower in a branch can be cheaper and much more enjoyable. It just takes a bit of advanced planning.

Doing OD through a branch give you time to enjoy your holiday abroad and not spending valuble time in a classroom.

Gary

[TrevorB]

Gary C

It was not so much a time scale as knowing what was going to happen when

I was working freelance at the time and tuning down work to go diving was a problem

but when you end up standing at Capernwray and your instructor (the DO) does not turn up, fortunately the TO fitted me a dive in with another group

back in the pool on club night, he never mentioned a word about his non appearance

Some branches just need to get their act together training wise, they are giving away new recruits to PADI.

[GaryC]

back in the pool on club night, he never mentioned a word about his non appearance

Some branches just need to get their act together training wise, they are giving away new recruits to PADI.
Really that is just bad manners and not what I would expect of anyone involved in diving. Instructor or Trainee.

The issue of Standards has been around for along time in BSAC, although as a branch members we are never going to see the really big picture. Leaving trainees with no real idea on their progression is not right. Even if a branch can not get around to arranging training or dives, then at very least they should be truthfull up front. However the piece meal evidence suggests this is not always the case.

It has long been my opinion that HQ should come up with some basic time standards that should be aimed at by Branches. It is a difficult area as we are all volanteers but a very basic level should be suggested.

I am not a DO now but when I was, I aimed at 4 months max for OD and 1 year total max for SD. In practise OD was 2 3 months and SD total was about 10 months. (eg 3 for OD and 7 for SD.)

However when trainees are on shifts it adds another dimension of comlexity.

Gary

[Dave White]

I don't believe that BSAC are losing trainees to PADI this is looking at a comparative for an answer when really they are potentially losing people who may never dive again and simply lose interest as it seems unattainable. Please sees my last post here which explains.
This is confirmed further by my new dive buddy who started 23 years ago and also did 6 months training with BSAC now completing his first qualification through PADI.
Neither of us abandoned to a competitor, we found them by chance many years later after giving up our childhood dreams.

I really don't think there is a battle for newbies as these ppeole usually don't know of organizations or options that may be open to them. Many of us give up because our enthusiasm is not fuelled and PADI being a business does not allow this.
As also mentioned previously many PADI instructors are also voluntary there is just more of them so gretaer flexibility can be offered in training.,

[Richard Whitcombe]

I may be wrong Richard, but I think the vast majority (all?) of the other agencies are commercial organisations, selling a service.

But in this day and age so is BSAC. In some cases they're competing directly via the schools (but as i said elsewhere, there are other far more severe barriers to them being able to compete there) but they're also competing at club level. There is a very real chance of clubs losing potential new members (either qualified divers OR unqualified) to a commercial organisation for both their training and future diving.
In this day and age the internet has made it easier than ever to find and go diving with no club connection at all so clubs really do now need to compete with commercial outfits who can train someone in 2 weeks and commercial charters offering diving trips booking directly.

Maybe "selling" isn't the correct word but branches do have a vested interest in getting people and retaining these people in exactly the same way a business does.
To do that the training has to be adequate, done in a sensible timeframe with a clear progression path and active diving.

A commercial outfit recruiting someone to do open water then "selling" them AOW or charter dives should be no different in approach to a club recruiting an ocean diver then "selling" them sports diver or regular club diving to enjoy their qualification.

The issue here is what Ocean Diver offers. Although broadly similar to openwater (various agencies) it has one crucial limitation - you cant just "go diving" with it. All other things being equal and this can be a severe limitation.


Once the course is complete that is the end of the matter, the instructor will in all probability never see the customer again. Unless of course, they sell further training (which for at least PADI) see as an important element of instructor training. Ideally the student will go from course to course. OW & AOW are often bundled together, with a big push to get the student to do RD as soon as possible after AOW. The relationship stops when the student doesn't want to buy further courses.

Not really. See above. You're also forgetting charters and regular dive trips and so on. Resorts get people they've trained coming back year after year (sometimes several times a year) just to go diving so the company and instructor benefits. You could replace the word "company" here with "club" and its obvious the situation is very similar.


With the BSAC, the model is totally different. Once trained, the objective is to retain them in branch & go diving with them. So that the instructor (& others) can dive with them again & again. The diver I train, dives with me, my friends / girlfriend / wife / lover / father / sister / mother / son / daughter. I hope the students becomes a friend & long term buddy.

That's not really different to what i mentioned above.


With BSAC the objective is to teach a student with the end objective that they become buddies & friends.

Not really. From a club point of view the end objective is to keep the person paying monthly fees to the club as without those its finished.
No different to a business.


PADI assess that dives that require decompession stops are too dangerous, even for their instructors.

Without going into the debate about if dive leader and in particular sport diver offer adequate training for decompression diving in the first place you forget the PADI Tec40 and above courses.


Does this mean that PADI don't believe that there instructors don't have the skills to safely use a decompression table that involves compulsary stops, or that it is far to complicated for them, or that there bouyancy skills are insufficent.

Or more accurately lots of their instructors aren't trained in the use of twinsets, multiple stages with rich O2 mixes, gas switching procedures and other things which most agencies deem important to being able to conduct safe decompression dives! BSAC don't appear to be of this view though. Surely nobody can say that a 15l of air and a 3l pony also with air is adequate gear for a mandatory 50m decompression dive?


I think not, like the vast majority of divers, they have these skills, its just that there agencies risk assessment says no, or that this is a commercial risk to far for PADI.

Other than all their technical courses you mean? They simply choose to introduce decompression diving in line with the technical agencies - ie equipment and gas minimum standards whereas BSAC choose to introduce it even for people with single tanks of air after maybe 16 dives in their entire life.

This is getting way off topic though, started out as ocean diver and is now talking about decompression diving so i'll leave it there in this thread.

I still maintain that if an instructor doesn't trust the people he's just trained to go out and dive to 6m in stoney cove without someone to babysit it highlights a failure of the instructor to do his job adequately. If they aren't safe to do that you need to not qualify them and explain clearly which bits they need to repeat to get to that level.

A generic after course debrief for another agency "Congratulations you're now a qualified diver. You can now go out and dive! Remember though to keep it nice and easy especially the first few times and if its anywhere unfamiliar or any doubts as someone who does know. Here's my email if you have any questions. The whole point of diving is to be able to go and do it whenever and wherever you want so now just get diving and build up that experience slowly and carefully."

Compare to BSAC:"congratulations, you're now a qualified diver. However you can't just go out and dive even at this site you've done 6 times now even only to 6mbecause we don't think your safe. So remember, despite being qualified, if you fancy a dive, remember to bring a babysitter. If your club isnt diving that weekend then err tough."

It would take a very small change to the BSAC wording to get rid of this pointless limitation and bring it far more in line with the rest of the planet and at the same time make OD a much more attractive qualification for both clubs and schools.

[Dave Woodward]

It happens outside a club environment all the time. And on a much larger scale the other agencies certifications it happens a massive number of times every single day. Yet the incidents aren't high.
There is no evidence to suggest that 2 x entry levels divers diving together are going to get into trouble yet BSAC still chooses to artificially restrict its qualification.


What proportion would people in general say of OW divers do actually head off in a twosome away from everyone else, without a guide, or shore cover really? 99% of the ones I see, dive from a boat with a guide, who by the standards needs to be a DM to lead the group because???

Generally, when things are a little difficult, they tend not to get done. Is it a good idea to dive with adequate surface cover? yes?

Is it a good idea to dive without adequate surface cover? Not really? But people will dive without surface cover, because it is an easy way out. (although in the UK, what proportion really do?)

Within the club, our club, we'd like people to do the right thing.

People get defensive when there is a suggestion that OD or OW are stupid, but I often find the most stupid person is that who thinks that everyone will automatically do the right thing or make the right choice. Hence, we have rules / guidelines what have you, the help us to do the right thing.

Requiring a DM when divers trained by other agencies might not, is really no different to telling your 8 year old kids they need to be home before dark and in bed by 8 or 9, while there may be other parents don't, and they can stay up til midnight watching scary films if they like.

Dave

[MattS]

What proportion would people in general say of OW divers do actually head off in a twosome away from everyone else, without a guide, or shore cover really?You are only ever going to get an anecdotal answer to that.

Around here (Portsmouth / Chichester), I commonly come across pairs of OWs on their own on the RHIB shuttles visiting the shallower sites. Not so much the day boats as they are usually visiting sites deeper than 18m. It was a similar story when Horsea Island was open, pairs of OWs popping in for a 6m dip where they had been trained. I take the occasional dip with Teign Divers when I am visiting family in Torquay, and again, on the shallower dives, they often have OWs on holiday aboard. We also have strong yachting and boating communities in Chichester, Portsmouth and Gosport. It fairly amazes me the number I meet in the pubs that have OW cards and keep a 'set' on board, in case they need to pop under the boat or have a look at something that has turned up on the echo sounder.

In short, there appears to be more of it going on than I ever thought about. Even so, it will only ever be a small minority of OWs as the vast majority learn on holiday and are not interested in diving around the UK.

Generally, when things are a little difficult, they tend not to get done. Is it a good idea to dive with adequate surface cover? yes?I don't think anyone is doubting that surface cover is a good idea. However, would you yourself undertake to only ever dive with formally qualified and dedicated surface cover, as ODs are told to. Remember, a skipper is not, strictly speaking, adequate surface cover for an OD. An SD is not adequate surface cover for an OD. A non-diver, is not adequate surface cover for an OD, even when the OD is buddied with a DL or AD - My partner can't dive but has been around divers for 15 years, has diver first aid, boat handling, radio qualifications and knows more about Nitrox than most SDs, but can not provide cover to ODs as she has no DPM qualification.

Within the club, our club, we'd like people to do the right thing.In my club, foremost, we want people to dive as safely as they can and to progress only as quickly as they can, and wish to. I am less interested in their being subject to bureaucratic nonsense and institutional molly coddling.

Prospective ODs don't always understand the full implication until they are subjected to it and (inevitably) come across an OW mate who is not. The idea that member retention is promoted by telling someone they can not do, what they have trained weeks and months to do, demonstrated they can do (by way of OD5), have been awarded a qualification to do, is hugely flawed.

People get defensive when there is a suggestion that OD or OW are stupid, but I often find the most stupid person is that who thinks that everyone will automatically do the right thing or make the right choice. Hence, we have rules / guidelines what have you, the help us to do the right thing.I am not for a minute entertaining the idea that people (all of us) are capable of doing stupid things. I am asking for ODs to have parity with the rest of us (BSAC qualified divers).

In my experience ODs are naturally more cautious than divers at the higher grades. Even so, ODs are subject to time and depth limits, which negate a lot of the risks we face at the higher grades - An uncontrolled ascent from a no-deco dive up to 20m is, realistically, likely to prove no more serious than a case of deep embarrassment. Realistically, an OD only has to remember to press the inflate, or drop their weight-belt as trained, to escape serious injury or death.

Requiring a DM when divers trained by other agencies might not, is really no different to telling your 8 year old kids they need to be home before dark and in bed by 8 or 9, while there may be other parents don't, and they can stay up til midnight watching scary films if they like.As I like to tell my trainees at all levels, I am nobody's mother. We are (mainly) dealing with Adults. They are allowed to decide for themselves the risks they want to take. My job as instructor and DO, is to inform, prepare and include, not to prevent, prohibit or try to be a dictator in my own little pond.

Thankfully the BSAC was still about what you 'can do' when I joined. I would like to think we can get back to that while we still have some members left.

[LHG]

Requiring a DM when divers trained by other agencies might not, is really no different to telling your 8 year old kids they need to be home before dark and in bed by 8 or 9, while there may be other parents don't, and they can stay up til midnight watching scary films if they like.

Dave

That makes it sound like PADI is irresponsible for allowing divers to dive alone.

If you use the analogy that it's no different to telling your 8 year old kids they aren't allowed out of the house coz it's too dangerous (BSAC), while there may be other parents who say they can go out but hae to be home before dark and in bed by 8 or 9 (PADI).

Now which looks better?

[Richard Whitcombe]

who by the standards needs to be a DM to lead the group because???

There are no "standards" about a DM having to lead a group what-so-ever. In some countries there are local laws that state a DM must be at least on-site (not actually in the water) but thats nothing to do with agency. Egypt for example you must have a guide on-site or in the water even if its 20 instructor trainers going on a 6m dive.... Florida keys for example in Key Largo most boats operate without a guide and its common to see PADI OWDs pair up and jump in without problem.

Ive been at UK inland sites and seen many OW divers turn up as a pair and simply go diving. Also on some UK charters ive seen them without problems.
(Ive also seen BSAC ODs doing it which is technically against their qualification but can't blame them!)


Generally, when things are a little difficult, they tend not to get done. Is it a good idea to dive with adequate surface cover? yes?

Depends. I wouldnt do a deep technical dive without adequate surface cover but more than happy to do a quarry or shore dive without it.

Again i fail to see why BSAC treats its new divers like complete imbeciles not even trusting them to dive to 6m on a site they've seen before at an inland site or known beach. That said this is from an agency that doesn't even trust its open water instructors to plan a dive to say stoney if they haven't already been there before!


Is it a good idea to dive without adequate surface cover? Not really? But people will dive without surface cover, because it is an easy way out. (although in the UK, what proportion really do?)

Quite a lot. Club diving isnt the end point of UK diving. Large amounts of independent diving goes on every day at both inland and coastal sites and the more clubs and agencies invent barrier to prevent diving the more its going to happen. The internet makes organising these things so much easier than they used to.

In other parts of the world where FAR more diving goes on it happens almost exclusively again without incident.




People get defensive when there is a suggestion that OD or OW are stupid, but I often find the most stupid person is that who thinks that everyone will automatically do the right thing or make the right choice. Hence, we have rules / guidelines what have you, the help us to do the right thing.

You can word it how you like but what it ultimately boils down to is the OD is a diver that the agency and/or instructor assumes is stupid, incompetent and incapable of finding things out for themselves. It highlights either a lack of faith in the training scheme, a lack of faith in the instructors delivering it OR a lack of faith in the student themselves.


Requiring a DM when divers trained by other agencies might not, is really no different to telling your 8 year old kids they need to be home before dark and in bed by 8 or 9, while there may be other parents don't, and they can stay up til midnight watching scary films if they like.

Not really. You have a clause which drastically restricts the use of the qualification. Nobody else has it. Nobody else has any incidents or points to suggest their approach is riskier or has problems. Going by that you have 2 qualifications that are just as "safe" but one is far more restrictive for the actual diver.

[LHG]

That makes it sound like PADI is irresponsible for allowing divers to dive alone.

If you use the analogy that it's no different to telling your 8 year old kids they aren't allowed out of the house coz it's too dangerous (BSAC), while there may be other parents who say they can go out but hae to be home before dark and in bed by 8 or 9 (PADI).

Now which looks better?

Or how about saying that some parents say they can go out to play with their friends but have to be home before dark and in bed by 8 or 9 (PADI), but other parents saying that they can go out to play with their friends, but only if their mum comes along too! (BSAC):eek:

[Dave Woodward]

That makes it sound like PADI is irresponsible for allowing divers to dive alone.



Yes, I guess it could sound like that, or maybe less responsible, or maybe BSAC is trying to be too responsible. At the end of the day, you make your choice which approach you prefer and take your choice of path.

[ChristianG]

Yes, I guess it could sound like that, or maybe less responsible, or maybe BSAC is trying to be too responsible. At the end of the day, you make your choice which approach you prefer and take your choice of path.
The trouble is, how many divers at this level of expertise actually know what they're doing, or rather, that they actually have a choice?

Furthermore, I don't care what Agency we're talking about here. I very much doubt that the PADIs of this world, or in fact the BSAC, fully explain the various permutations involved here.

My (very) own position is that once a person gets that first C Card, that should be it, they are now divers - except that they should also be advised, in no uncertain terms, that they are now on the steepest part of the learning curve and that diving with their more advanced (for want of a better word) colleagues is desirable, rather than an option.

To tell people that they are now divers but, no, they are only allowed to do certain dives is, quite simply ludicrous. There are plenty of people out there, as just one example, who would then (at the very least) leave the organisation that has turned this into some sort of law.

Conversely, I know plenty of divers who "only" have an OW C Card with whom I would happily dive to depths that they're, technically, according to that C Card, incapable of diving to. They're the same divers that can probably dive rings around many a highly qualified Instructor.

[Dave Woodward]

You're right, but that supports one argument - They don't know what they don't know, and the 2 -4 days of an Open Water or Ocean Diver course isn't enough time to get across all the dangers etc.

Maybe it is time for BSAC to step back a little from being so prescriptive. The world is clearly moving away from the club (community?) ethos, and there are a lot of people who don't really "get it" when you explain that you are doing something as a volunteer, within a group of members. That said, how could it be achieved?

In this very situation, you could as you say strongly urge them that they should gain experience in an environment with more experienced etc. but what if they choose not to? Does the group who originally trained them bear any responsibility?

Clearly BSAC judges that OW level divers should be carrying out their diving activities within a "controlled environment" with a credible shore cover present. Because they have a hand (and possibly some responsibility?) in continued activity by the diver, they handle this by making it a feature of the qualification. That's basically it.

Do they need to compete with anyone else? personally, i would prefer to take on OW divers, and help them go diving and gain experience than spend my time and money training Ocean Divers, half of whom you never see again.

Dave

[Gareth]

You're right, but that supports one argument - They don't know what they don't know, and the 2 -4 days of an Open Water or Ocean Diver course isn't enough time to get across all the dangers etc.

Maybe it is time for BSAC to step back a little from being so prescriptive. The world is clearly moving away from the club (community?) ethos, and there are a lot of people who don't really "get it" when you explain that you are doing something as a volunteer, within a group of members. That said, how could it be achieved?

I agre with both statements. The real problem for new divers is that they don't know what they don't know.
Similalry, it would be better for BSAC if the surface cover could be relaxed as Ocean Divers gain experience.


In this very situation, you could as you say strongly urge them that they should gain experience in an environment with more experienced etc. but what if they choose not to? Does the group who originally trained them bear any responsibility?

Clearly BSAC judges that OW level divers should be carrying out their diving activities within a "controlled environment" with a credible shore cover present. Because they have a hand (and possibly some responsibility?) in continued activity by the diver, they handle this by making it a feature of the qualification. That's basically it.

Got it in one.
Within BSAC training, BSAC, the branch, the instructor & the budy don't just wash their hands of the student when he/she completes a qualification.


Do they need to compete with anyone else? personally, i would prefer to take on OW divers, and help them go diving and gain experience than spend my time and money training Ocean Divers, half of whom you never see again.

Dave

Our biggist group of new members are PADI OW divers. Those that have joined this year very much want to start their training all over again, they have the opportunities to go diving with the branchin Open Water, but prefer to repeat the Sheltered Water lessons.
We have often referred potential members to the local PADI schools when they are in a hurrry to complete their training, or where a referal would be preferred.
It is much better to turn away someone who doesn't 'get it' (the club system) or who is in a hurry than have disapointed members. That said, it is noticable that they often come back......because they want to go diving & thats what we do.

Gareth

[Richard Whitcombe]

My (very) own position is that once a person gets that first C Card, that should be it, they are now divers - except that they should also be advised, in no uncertain terms, that they are now on the steepest part of the learning curve and that diving with their more advanced (for want of a better word) colleagues is desirable, rather than an option.

Any decent instructor will do that. Its in the standards for teaching for most agencies. Nobody goes out and says "Yep, well done, you can now dive. Bye!"


To tell people that they are now divers but, no, they are only allowed to do certain dives is, quite simply ludicrous. There are plenty of people out there, as just one example, who would then (at the very least) leave the organisation that has turned this into some sort of law.

Most agency qualifications are "recommended" maximum depths. Standards only apply on actual courses. After that they have qualifications with recommended limits and thats it (except junior or scuba diver levels under PADI).

The system works.

[Richard Whitcombe]

You're right, but that supports one argument - They don't know what they don't know, and the 2 -4 days of an Open Water or Ocean Diver course isn't enough time to get across all the dangers etc.

Really? So where is the pile of bodies building up to prove this? Where are the excessively large number of coastguard or medical call outs for OW divers?

We're training entry level divers here to dive to shallow depths, within the limits of their training. 4 days is enough to tell someone how to dive to a basic level within the limits of their experience and to train common sense and thinking to appreciate the risks. It happens hundreds of thousands of times world wide every year without issue. (i don't know what you mean by 2 days though - OW course cant be done in 2, neither can OD!).



In this very situation, you could as you say strongly urge them that they should gain experience in an environment with more experienced etc. but what if they choose not to? Does the group who originally trained them bear any responsibility?

Of course it doesn't. If the training followed all the standards and was delivered properly ultimately its always the diver who decides what to do.
Ive seen SDs violate maximum depth, DLs violate maximum depth, AOWs violate maximum depth and so on. Its their own choice after that what they want to do. They might invalidate their insurance, they might not care about that and so on.

The driving examiner nor instructor isnt responsible if someone decides to drive at 150mph and smashes a car up after the test. You train people to the best of your ability by whatever standards apply but ultimately after that the decision about what to do and what not to do is their decision entirely. You dont "own" them.

The only way there could be fallout is if someone claims training standards weren't followed or "i wasn't taught that". With PADI/RSTC agencies that's easier to disprove because of the paper trail which both the instructor and students sign off to agree this lesson was taught, this drill was done etc. With BSAC its not as easy due to the almost complete absence of a paper trail. The QRB simply isn't detailed enough for that and is open to forgery.


Clearly BSAC judges that OW level divers should be carrying out their diving activities within a "controlled environment" with a credible shore cover present. Because they have a hand (and possibly some responsibility?) in continued activity by the diver, they handle this by making it a feature of the qualification. That's basically it.
They don't have a hand in it. How do you think BSAC schools figure in this? They're just a standard commercial entity. Their syllabus has been approved and accepted by the regulatory bodies and industry equivalents. Their instructors have (in theory) been approved to teach all aspects of the course. Provided the instructors do their job then they're covered.

The "someone might sue" is always a last ditch argument thrown out by somebody desperate who has no real defence for what they're trying to defend. Ultimately there are no incident reports to back up the OD restriction and no legal challenges to back up the OD restriction. Its just treating ODs are stupid and restricting what would otherwise be a perfectly useful qualification.



Do they need to compete with anyone else? personally, i would prefer to take on OW divers, and help them go diving and gain experience than spend my time and money training Ocean Divers, half of whom you never see again.
Dave

That is a common problem. Generally we see retention rates from already qualified divers that come to us to go diving are far higher than ODs. If someone seeks you out they want to dive, they're trained, they know they like it, they may have their own gear and they want to be active. An OD trainee may have no idea what diving involves outside a try dive in a pool, no idea of the costs, no idea of the logistics or what the training involves and so on. There is quite a high drop out rate during training due to this and post-training when they decide UK diving isn't for them at all.

[TerryH]

The highest number of new certifications in the UK are from PADI divers.
Of these a very small percentage actually continue in the UK, the vast
majority stick at OW, but those that continue in the main do so abroad.

If you want a simple indicator, look at any school course timetable and
compare the frequency of OW vs AOW/Rescue.

So the actual number of PADI OW divers who continue diving in the UK
is small in comparison with the total (less than 15% is the latest figure i've
seen), of those many will go diving with a pro guide or a more experinced
buddy leaving an extremely small number who would actually venture out in
the shallows, with a similar trained inexperinced OW diver.

Which kind of blows out of the water the "bodies arent stacking up" argument.
Yes all PADI OW divers can dive together, but even an optimistic estimate
would put the numbers that do that in the UK as not even 1%.

Compare that with BSAC and it's a way different picture, the percentages
of those continuing to dive in the UK and going onto higher levels are
considerably higher, these are UK based and that potentially could put a
much larger number of inexperinced divers in danger, hence the greater need
for caution.

The above model (PADI & BSAC) doesnt neccessarily translate to other
climes (hence the stance by many I suspect), but when talking of UK based
diving, the numerical comparison with PADI OW & BSAC OD doesnt work.

[Richard Whitcombe]

So the actual number of PADI OW divers who continue diving in the UK
is small in comparison with the total (less than 15% is the latest figure i've
seen),

15% is still a lot of divers.


of those many will go diving with a pro guide or a more experinced
buddy

..and some don't


leaving an extremely small number who would actually venture out in
the shallows, with a similar trained inexperinced OW diver.

Source of the figures?


Which kind of blows out of the water the "bodies arent stacking up" argument.

So you're admitting that people can and do dive without a guide and dive together and yet choose to ignore the facts that incidents aren't happening. You're also choosing to ignore the rest-of-world stats which have a far far higher number of dives than the UK and yet still don't have the incidents.


Yes all PADI OW divers can dive together, but even an optimistic estimate
would put the numbers that do that in the UK as not even 1%.

Really? Lets see the figures to back up this "optimistic" estimate.



Compare that with BSAC and it's a way different picture, the percentages
of those continuing to dive in the UK and going onto higher levels are
considerably higher,

Have BSAC ever released these figures?


these are UK based and that potentially could put a
much larger number of inexperinced divers in danger, hence the greater need
for caution.

Proof of this is where exactly? What figures? What sources? Why does the rest of planet earth not have this concern?


The above model (PADI & BSAC) doesnt neccessarily translate to other
climes (hence the stance by many I suspect),

The UK isnt the only place that has currents, cold water, tides or low visibility yet nowhere else chooses to restrict divers.


but when talking of UK based
diving, the numerical comparison with PADI OW & BSAC OD doesnt work.

Based on what?

If you're going to blindly defend BSAC at least back it up. Its a given you will go out in defence no matter what but really without figures and verified sources the argument is worthless. The fact is worldwide entry level divers (not just padi) are allowed to dive together and they do. In the UK they're allowed to dive together and they do. Yet the incidents aren't happening. These dives would appear to go quite safely.

BSAC is not unique. Its just another training agency. UK conditions are not unique - there are many other places like it.
The "special circumstances" argument doesn't wash at all.

[MattS]

Which kind of blows out of the water the "bodies arent stacking up" argument. Yes all PADI OW divers can dive together, but even an optimistic estimate would put the numbers that do that in the UK as not even 1%.Terry, You are making another of those meaningless comparisons.

Incidents are reported as gross numbers. It is silly to try to compare a gross figure to a percentage of an unknown quantity.

We can (only) estimate risk based on the factors that are present when incidents occur. Although not perfect, the figures show clear patterns which recur irrespective of locality. The diving we are talking about, single cylinder O/C, down to 20m, without a decompression ceiling, being about the safest type of diving there is.

One of the problems I see with this whole discussion is that the need to protect ODs is being driven along emotionally. It is not based on any sensible method of RA. People just 'feel' that ODs are at increased risk due their inexperience. Completely neglecting that we know exactly what the risk curve looks like.

Whoever you are, wherever you dive, whatever level of training and experience, the chances of featuring as an incident rise steeply with complexity and depth.

Sure inexperience is a risk factor, but it is noise on the graph compared with complexity and depth. I am pretty sure that recent experience is more of a factor than overall experience anyway. i.e. The time that has elapsed since you last dived in similar conditions. E.g. An AD that has not dived for 6 months being (statistically) more prone to having an accident than an OD that dived last week.

The above model (PADI & BSAC) doesnt neccessarily translate to other climes (hence the stance by many I suspect), but when talking of UK based diving, the numerical comparison with PADI OW & BSAC OD doesnt work.There is no sensible comparison that can be made.

Diving fatality reports account for just about 100% of fatal diving accidents occurring in the UK, irrespective of training agency. It's very simple, accidents in the 20m no-deco zone are extremely rare. Far, far rarer than accidents involving experienced divers at depth in the the decompression zone, or using rebreathers at any depth. Unless there is far more rebreather and deep diving going on than 20m no-deco dives, we can safely assume, based on a standard deviation, that there are few fatalities, because actually, it's a pretty damn safe activity. Certainly, far, far safer than driving to work or crossing a road in town.

[TrevorB]

Sorry but I don't think we need to model data this way

The simple view from a branch perspective is we train Ocean Divers and that they are equally as well trained as a PADI open water.

We also take in PADI crossovers who are open water trained

Both these groups study for Sports Diver and the PADI group can go to Capernwray and practice their skills

The Ocean Divers cannot, unless a dive leader is available to supervise and there is nothing the Diving officer can do about it

Yes surface cover would be good idea for both groups but that could be a Sports Diver, but again not for Ocean Divers

What have they done wrong to deserve this treatment except put their trust in BSAC.

[bythesea]

The Ocean Divers cannot,

They can, they just can't tell anyone about it for fear of a lobboking where as the OW divers can tell people and get a pat on the back for going and practising their skills....

[TrevorB]

Not really the answer is it, lets try and be above board

[bythesea]

Not really the answer is it, lets try and be above board

It is exactly the answer Trevor, be as above board as you like that doesn't mean the above wont/doesn't happen now does it?

There is what should happen in life and what does happen....I prefer to base myself in the reality of what does/can happen...

[TerryH]

It is exactly the answer Trevor, be as above board as you like that doesn't mean the above wont/doesn't happen now does it?

There is what should happen in life and what does happen....I prefer to base myself in the reality of what does/can happen...



Trevor is in a Special Branch and his circumstances mean that the very
existence of his club is dependent on following not just the rules, but the
reccommendations of BSAC. He doesnt have the luxury of allowing divers
to do there own thing.

To ordinary branch members this bit can be extremely hard to fathom.

[TrevorB]

So what happens if there is an incident
Do you not put in an incident report and get sucked further into deceit
Sort of a paperwork incident pit
Trevor

[bythesea]

You are both missing the point, it doesn't matter what rules you as the responsible person follow.

If two people decide off their own back to go and dive somewhere together regardless of grade who or what is going to stop them.

Also if the 'responsible person' doesn't know about it then it is not their responsibility.

Sometimes you have to peek over the lid of the box to see the bigger picture.

[TerryH]

You are both missing the point, it doesn't matter what rules you as the responsible person follow.

If two people decide off their own back to go and dive somewhere together regardless of grade who or what is going to stop them.

Also if the 'responsible person' doesn't know about it then it is not their responsibility.

Sometimes you have to peek over the lid of the box to see the bigger picture.


No sorry you are the one missing the point, you are applying standard logic
to a circumstance that defies it.

The fact that you had no knowledge of the dive in many cases would not be
sufficient an excuse to prevent sancions against the club and in a severe
case that could even mean closure.

This might sound crazy, but it's a proven reality that ignorance is not a
defence and not just for scuba clubs.

Pretty much any special branch has this problem, all that varies is the degree
to which third party control is applied.

[bythesea]

Bored now...

[TerryH]

Terry, you do understand the concept of free will don't you..

If the question was, under BSAC safe diving procedures can two ocean divers dive together then the answer is no.

If the question is can two ocean divers dive together then the answer is yes, two anybodies can do anything they choose together, whether they should is another issue but can they, yes, who is going to stop them?

Let us imagine my wife an I are ocean divers, we have our own kit, we drive to the local beach, kit up and wade into the sea, we did, we can, we made that choice..... free will....


We strayed off topic when you suggested that it was ok to fudge the rules
as long as nobody knew. I was just pointing out that this is not a suitable
defence for some clubs and even in your scenario the club wouldnt be
immune from sancion.

I've found it almost impossible to explain to some BSAC ordinary branch
members how this concept works. Unless you are party to it TBH it sounds
crazy, but its there, just works on a sliding scale from zero intervention
to not being able to sneeze without permission in triplicate.


Or do you tag your trainees and monitor their every movement?

My club trains Ocean & Sport back to back within 6 months over the
the winter and provide ALL club kit (including drysuits). Students are
already Sport before they start to buy there own kit, so it's academic.

One of the reasons for the training programe to be designed this way is to
ensure that we dont have to account for your scenario.

[Dave Woodward]

Yes, people can do, and sometimes will do exactly what they want to do, and nothing anyone says or does will change that. Common sense often works OK, most of the time, but sometimes it doesn't. People take advice, but sometimes they don't .
No laws about it really. A bit like gun control in the US. BTW, Could the article at the back of this month Dive relevant to this arguement on experience and doing your own thing?


It boils down to two 2 arguments and 2 camps. Whether or not a OW / OD is trained and qualified enough to go off and do their own thing totally independently, and whether or not the agency / people who trained them should retain any responsibility for them, and should they be able to limit their qualification.

First one, I think no, the second one, I think yes, we should take / retain responsibility, but not sure how restrictive would should be in doing that.

The differing opinions appear to be on one side, people who have done most of their diving and training within a club, and generally are accepting that they retain responsibility as the trainees are club members and stick around, and on the other side, people with more time spent training and being trained in a commercial sphere, where the trainees are customers, who they will most likely never see again, and so would not want to accept ongoing responsibility.

I accept it is a qualification designed to be delivered in a club to members who will stay around and dive activily with the club and put aside the ability to do Ocean Diver in a School (in which case, it really shouldn't come with restrictions. their is little point going on about how uncomptetitive it is against OW, because most poitn out they have no intention to offer it anyway.

But, change the wording to a strong recmmendation. After all, a dive club can put any restrictions on it's members it wants for activities "with that club"

[ChristianG]

We strayed off topic when you suggested that it was ok to fudge the rules as long as nobody knew. I was just pointing out that this is not a suitable defence for some clubs and even in your scenario the club wouldnt be immune from sancion.

I've found it almost impossible to explain to some BSAC ordinary branch
members how this concept works. Unless you are party to it TBH it sounds crazy, but its there, just works on a sliding scale from zero intervention to not being able to sneeze without permission in triplicate.
Off topic? I fail to see why an event, whatever that event may be, could be the responsibility of someone with no knowledge of it. Even if they had knowledge of it, what can they do about it except jump up and down naysaying? Are they going to put these potential perpetrators into jail, or leg irons, simply because of something that they might do which goes against the grain of those supposedly responsible? If not, how are they going to police these potential perpetrators? I can envisage a Keystone Cops type of drama where those responsible follow them to the "scene of the crime". What are they going to do then? Arrest them?

How utterly, utterly, ludicrous.

My club trains Ocean & Sport back to back within 6 months over the winter and provide ALL club kit (including drysuits). Students are already Sport before they start to buy there own kit, so it's academic.
Does that respond to bythesea's original question? You actually quoted it and it was:

Or do you tag your trainees and monitor their every movement?
Regardless of that, I hardly think that the training afforded by one club, whether yours or not, is a standard that all aspire to. If anything that is the Off Topic part of your so-called arguments here.

One of the reasons for the training programe to be designed this way is to ensure that we dont have to account for your scenario.
How droll, your club trains, at least in part, to overcome a perceived BSAC problem. How quaint.

Tell me, are you a BSAC boardroom/council/sub-committee apologist? You have yet again drawn a line in the sand and are, again, defending it to the grim death.

Some people might call that "defending the indefensible".

Terry, believe it or not, BSAC Council, and its sub-committees, consists of hooman beans. Hooman beans are well known for making mistakes, we all do, but in your mind it seems that Council (etc) is infallible. Not even the Pope, perhaps particularly not even the Pope (by my own standards), is infallible.

[Fred]

I think the point here is that Special Branches are financed by Universities / Armed Forces / Businesses or whatever and if they draw adverse publicity of any sort then that financing maybe withdrawn ending the clubs ability to exist.

[TerryH]

I think the point here is that Special Branches are financed by Universities / Armed Forces / Businesses or whatever and if they draw adverse publicity of any sort then that financing maybe withdrawn ending the clubs ability to exist.


Exactly and rather getting in a word war with some that still dont get it,
i'll just run-through 3 very real examples i've come across.


One
I was on a South Coast boat (sadly no longer running) a few years ago on a
midweek dive with my buddy, along with another group of 4 diving as 2 buddy
pairs.

One rapid ascent later + India Juliet and the remaining 3 were bricking it over
how they were going to explain to there CO how 4 junior army officers went
diving without a SADS in attendance. Apparently this wasnt the first time
and it had been discussed previously that further unauthorised excursions
could well put the club at risk. Care to imagine that conversation with the
CO :eek:
PS: I have pics of the old Sigorsky doing the lift somewhere.


Two
A large well-known computer company has a requirement that no more than
2 of its staff travel in the same vehicle at the same time. In the event of an
accident this is to prevent crucial projects being affected. The dive club is ok
as long as dives are sancioned, and authorised dives must be with buddy pairs
that dont work in the same department or project. This is a prime directive of
the club being allowed to exist.

Be a bit of a bugger then explaining how the only 2 with specific skills in the
whole company and who worked in the same department, ended up diving
together and due to a fubar not of there making, got delayed on the trip back
from Weymouth.

With both missing from work on the Monday, the firm was not best pleased
and while the individuals were not harmed, that wasnt enough for the firm
in question who were on the verge of closing the club down. The only
savior was the unique argument that this particular department was only
2 strong and as such they could just as easily have been travelling in a car
together. Skin of the teeth or what :rolleyes:


Three
I've got a fair few genuine stories about several Unis, but to mention them on
here could have an adverse effect as many are still sensitive, but the basics
are in most Unis is that the Students Union is run by an elected official who
often has no idea how scuba works. There bible for any sport (not just
scuba) is the rules regulations etc. of whatever governing body applies.

If anybody does anything outside that governing body, even in a private
capacity, then the club can be put on hold pending an enquiry. Remember
the SU rep has no idea of scuba, doesnt even know if this is right or wrong,
so in the event of almost any complaint (doesnt have to be by anyone from
scuba club) no matter how thin, for some its a lot easier to just stop the club.

Add in worries about liablity, negative publicity for the Uni and even that
nice slab of cash that can be redirected from scuba club and it's not too
difficult to see why such a simple thing as a private excursion can and has
had such a detrimental effect on some clubs.



Just for a bit of balance I am painting some of the worse cases I've come
across and in many special branches its not like this, but enough are to make
some of the blanket statements on this dangeroulsy wrong.

Just need to recognise that if you are under the banner of a third party
(Forces, Uni, Buisness), it is them that define you and they dont neccessarily
need logic to stop you existing.

[GaryC]

Sorry but examples like that are a complete wast of time.

I can give you examples of where DL have bollocked up a dive.

I can give you exampeles of where AD have bollocked up a dive.

I can give you examples of where Instructors have bollocked up dives.

They are specific and have no relevance to the question in hand. Pure stats again. You could use examples to ban diving full stop. But in the end it is not that dangerous. 2 OD on there own could make mistake but they are diving within safe tolerances.

If there are real reasons then lets have them.

Gary

[TerryH]

Sorry but examples like that are a complete wast of time.

I can give you examples of where DL have bollocked up a dive.

I can give you exampeles of where AD have bollocked up a dive.

I can give you examples of where Instructors have bollocked up dives.

They are specific and have no relevance to the question in hand. Pure stats again. You could use examples to ban diving full stop. But in the end it is not that dangerous. 2 OD on there own could make mistake but they are diving within safe tolerances.

If there are real reasons then lets have them.

Gary



Need to start a few posts back, its off-topic and not about failures.

[MattS]

Just need to recognise that if you are under the banner of a third party (Forces, Uni, Buisness), it is them that define you and they dont neccessarily need logic to stop you existing.Unless you are trying to make out that BSAC Council / NDC are making rules by proxy for the military, unis, some company ltd, I really don't see what any of this has to do with ODs being allowed to decide when and where they dive.

You keep saying people don't get it, inevitably going off topic, as you explain it all, yet again.

I suggest we all understand perfectly well, but outside of those forums dedicated to special branches, we are talking about The BSAC and The BSAC's general branches.

[Nigel Hewitt]

I read this as sloppy wording that should really be phrased as recommendations that 'at first' you have all sorts of backup but that being really down to the branch to provide guidance on and the DO to having under his remit.

However our sloppy wording has to be read as commandments carved in stone by some special branches so it needs to be tightened up to only say what we need.

[Mike Halligan]

Exactly and rather getting in a word war with some that still dont get it,
i'll just run-through 3 very real examples i've come across.

<examples snipped>

Just for a bit of balance I am painting some of the worse cases I've come
across and in many special branches its not like this, but enough are to make
some of the blanket statements on this dangeroulsy wrong.

Just need to recognise that if you are under the banner of a third party
(Forces, Uni, Business), it is them that define you and they dont neccessarily
need logic to stop you existing.

Terry,

Every one of these examples relates directly to a seriously neurotic superior, be that Uni, HM Forces or extremely exceptional business. And in each case, those affected (afflicted?) know they are in exceptional circs over which they have total control - they could get out, at a cost.

The vast majority are not so constrained, these examples are therefore not so much off-thread as beyond everyday comprehension. My employer, a non-military arm of HMG loves to believe it owns me body and soul but, apart from a sickness/depression/suicide rate among colleagues which would make your hair curl, that has little effect on me. [They just wont stop the bells.]

Mike

[TerryH]

I read this as sloppy wording that should really be phrased as recommendations that 'at first' you have all sorts of backup but that being really down to the branch to provide guidance on and the DO to having under his remit.

However our sloppy wording has to be read as commandments carved in stone by some special branches so it needs to be tightened up to only say what we need.


Absolutely bang on, wish i'd said that as clearly ;)

[Mike Halligan]

Too true, for the benefit of the relatively few and without detriment to the majority.

[TerryH]

Terry,

Every one of these examples relates directly to a seriously neurotic superior, be that Uni, HM Forces or extremely exceptional business. And in each case, those affected (afflicted?) know they are in exceptional circs over which they have total control - they could get out, at a cost.

The vast majority are not so constrained, these examples are therefore not so much off-thread as beyond everyday comprehension. My employer, a non-military arm of HMG loves to believe it owns me body and soul but, apart from a sickness/depression/suicide rate among colleagues which would make your hair curl, that has little effect on me. [They just wont stop the bells.]

Mike


Yeah sure Mike, but it needs to be said, because while the number of
branches that come under this sort of control are limited, the number of
divers that go through them is considerable.

[Mike Halligan]

Yeah sure Mike, but it needs to be said, because while the number of
branches that come under this sort of control are limited, the number of
divers that go through them is considerable.

"Needs to be said", yes, and in fact it is more than adequately heard by Regions (very sympathetic), NDC (likewise a few years ago) and Council (most likely the same). However, the BSAC has to address the mass market in its product or else our mainstream clubs will die - and IMHO we are being hurt right now by over-regulating OD to suit (possibly, has anyone checked?) the overbearing.

If Special (meaning exceptional) Branches wish to be ultra-cautious to the point of obsession, let them be so, but why should the BSAC inflict a general rule which is apparently unenforceable and certainly has few friends just to ease the path of the exception?

If the BSAC truly wishes to constrain OD diving, then let it revert the term to ND equivalent, where only DL or above could dive with them. If it doesn't wish to turn back the clock 8 years, then it could always butt out and let consenting adults conduct their own risk assessment. :eek:

[TrevorB]

Sorry this is turning into a can of worm in a public forum

The description of an Ocean Diver is :-

To train a diver who can dive in open water using 21%, 32% and 36% O2 breathing gas mixes, in controlled conditions to a maximum depth of 20m under the supervision of a Dive Manager

If this became

To train a diver who can dive in open water using 21%, 32% and 36% O2 breathing gas mixes, in controlled conditions to a maximum depth of 20m under the initial supervision of a Dive Manager

Then Special BSAC's could practice what others seem to be doing and not risk severe sanctions

But ordinary BSACS could also benefit

The Ocean Dive scheme can hold it’s head up

and those that bend the rules would not have to

If its within DO control and if you don't like the DO's decisions you could change them at election time or move branch
Perhaps not in the armed forces, but that seems to be a separate problem

Would this not solve a lot of debate and argument

We all want sensible rules that we can defend, and not ones that appear to be regularly worked around or ignored

It’s our club and we ought to be able to influence its development and control
just sometimes its hard to locate the mechanism and thats when the frustration kicks in

For me I would not have to extend priveledges to PADI Crossovers that I cannot extend to Ocean Divers

[Bernd]

It is mentioned several times in this thread that BSAC is the only federation who restricts his divers in such a way. However, this is not true. CMAS, another mainly non-profit diving federation, does something similar. A diver with the lowest level of qualification is called one star diver (= OD). A sports diver is roughly speaking a two star diver. etc. The general rule is, that a buddy pair needs to have together at least 4 stars. An exeption is for this rule is: "The two star diver may dive with a one star diver in sheltered shallow water." (CMAS: STANDARDS & REQUIREMENTS
DIVER AND INSTRUCTOR ( VERSION 2002/00 )) Hence, an one star diver needs a two star diver for a safe location and at least a three star diver else. However, no need for an instructor, an experienced diver for a buddy is enough.

[The Rocketeer]

Yes I agree on this one trevor, if you make it "initially" then it becomes a matter for the individual branch in the general case, specialist branches of course being excepted.

This way if you get a D.O/Branch who are tryannical/set in the past, then the diver is more likely to move to another more accomodating branch rather than do what many do now and jump ship straight to PADI never to be seen again.

I think what everybody does accept is that BSAC hasn't done the OD wording out of malice, but ust probably didn't think it through at the time and how it may affect the recently qualified members at some of the more "disjointed branches" if you can call them that.

As for CMAS, the French system is indeed far more rigid than even ours is even though they may have a common root, the question being do they even bother to look what others and PADI are doing or is it along the lines of "Well that worked for my grandad and his grandad so it will be applied to you too"

[Gareth]

Yes I agree on this one trevor, if you make it "initially" then it becomes a matter for the individual branch in the general case, specialist branches of course being excepted.

This way if you get a D.O/Branch who are tryannical/set in the past, then the diver is more likely to move to another more accomodating branch rather than do what many do now and jump ship straight to PADI never to be seen again.

I think what everybody does accept is that BSAC hasn't done the OD wording out of malice, but ust probably didn't think it through at the time and how it may affect the recently qualified members at some of the more "disjointed branches" if you can call them that.

As for CMAS, the French system is indeed far more rigid than even ours is even though they may have a common root, the question being do they even bother to look what others and PADI are doing or is it along the lines of "Well that worked for my grandad and his grandad so it will be applied to you too"


You could argue that the problem is precisely because BSAC did move from what worked for Granddad (third class, second class, First class - before my time), Novice I, Novice II, Sports Diver, Diver Leader, Advanced Diver, First Class Diver. To a PADI based system!

The issue about changing the wording is valid. Except that you do need to be careful otherwise you get the unintended consequences.
e.g. the current guidence that DO's MUST issue a diving qualification if all the boxes are signed, even if the individual is a danger to themselves & others.
(I know why the rules where changed & agree with them for the most part, except of course, for the case stated above). So with the above case you get well respected Members & DO's saying irrespective of what BSAC say they issue a qualification if the individual is dangerous, thus bring them into conflict with BSAC & causing all sorts of bad press & argument.

Gareth

[TrevorB]

Thanks

If we can get by the sea on board today will have been well spent ???

[bythesea]

My opinion is of no importance....

[ChristianG]

My opinion is of no importance....
Nor is that of anyone else, but we've all got one. ;) :rolleyes:

Edit/: More importantly, I wonder if Council is going to take note of the opinions expressed on this thread (this post for example) (http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=154143&postcount=207), or is it going to be another hog looping fiasco.

[Hamish]

Hi,

This is just my take on the item in question, i.e. "Can Ocean Divers Dive Alone", and my interpretation of the rules surrounding Ocean Divers.

Firstly the answer to the question as stated is no, purely as we in BSAC do not condone singleton diving, or as I prefer to call it, Billy no Mates.

But of course this was not what was being asked.

What was being asked was can they dive without the direct supervision of a Dive Manager. Well lets look at what BSAC state on their site for the grade of Ocean Diver.

They can Dive;

• to a maximum depth of 20m.
• with another BSAC Ocean Diver or with a BSAC Sports Diver, within the restrictions of the conditions already encountered during training.
• with a Dive Leader or higher grade, to expand experience beyond the conditions encountered during training, under the supervision of a Dive Manager.
• not requiring mandatory decompression stops.
• under the on-site supervision of a Dive Manager with respect to site selection, conditions and dive plan.

Now having got that out of the way we are left with an answer that say’s they cannot dive outside their limits as laid down, nor without onsite supervision of a Dive manager, unless diving with a Dive Leader under the supervision (not direct on site supervision) of a Dive Manager.

So as others have stated should we (BSAC members that is) not put forward a proposal to bring our Ocean Diver grade in to line with the other major agencies first diving grade and allow our divers to dive;

• to a maximum depth of 20m.
• with another BSAC Ocean Diver or with a BSAC Sports Diver, within the restrictions of the conditions already encountered during training.
• with a Dive Leader or higher grade, to expand experience beyond the conditions encountered during training, under supervision of the DO or Lead Instructor.
• not requiring mandatory decompression stops.
• at sites already known to the Ocean Diver
• Where the site is not know then diving must be supervised on site by a Dive Manager or other responsible person

As stated just this is just my view of what could be put in place to allow our OD qualification to be seen as more than a diver who requires supervision at all times.

Regards

Hamish

[bootneck]

That sounds a very sensible compromises Hamish and one which would bring the OD who sneak off (and who can blame them) for a dive , back where they could get good advice , the club.

[garethwoodruff]

[QUOTE][So as others have stated should we (BSAC members that is) not put forward a proposal to bring our Ocean Diver grade in to line with the other major agencies first diving grade and allow our divers to dive;

• to a maximum depth of 20m.
• with another BSAC Ocean Diver or with a BSAC Sports Diver, within the restrictions of the conditions already encountered during training.
• with a Dive Leader or higher grade, to expand experience beyond the conditions encountered during training, under supervision of the dive manager..
• not requiring mandatory decompression stops.
• at sites already known to the Ocean Diver
• Where the site is not know then diving must be supervised on site by a Dive Manager or other responsible person

/QUOTE]

You need to tweak that to dive manager, limiting it to the DO / Lead instructor makes it really difficult if your on holiday with a dive manager in charge, they can't then decide on a suitable dive site.

Actually I quite like the current arrnagement, it fits in with the way the branches I dive with operate and getting sports diver is not that difficult from expereince. I understand the issues, but to me Ocean diver is not sufficient to go and do a 20 meter dive in loch long with low visibility and no shore cover.

Cheers,

Gareth.

[The Rocketeer]

Hi All
So say we have the situation where "the branch" in question has an outing on the south coast to do the salsette in whoever umpteen metres the wreck is in and of course the OD's of which there are 2 of are told with great delight by many of the members of that branch "No you can't come with us because you are not experienced enough". (Does this sound familiar to anybody).........

Now this wipes out a good 70% of the branches population as it is a big trip, but our 2 enthusiastic OD's still want to go diving at a site that is within their qualification range and the rest of the branch are either doing other things or are apathetic.

Basically the OD's in question have the Hobson's choice of a "dive at risk" as renegades as nobody will provide the necessary shore cover.

Shame really as by comparison Padi OW's do not have this sheer level of red tape applied to them.

So the bottom line of this whole thread is a simple equation:

OCEAN DIVER = UNQUALIFIED :(

Can we have a show of hands as to those who originally qualified as Cd's/OD's and who had to do the odd at risk dive. (By the way I'm waving my hand in the air frantically, as I had to do lots, so from this experience am attempting "Deceased Equine Floggery" with the general populace to remove this insanity).

Cheer up folks it's only a forum :o

Paul

[Ron MacRae]

Hi All
So say we have the situation where "the branch" in question has an outing on the south coast to do the salsette in whoever umpteen metres the wreck is in and of course the OD's of which there are 2 of are told with great delight by many of the members of that branch "No you can't come with us because you are not experienced enough". (Does this sound familiar to anybody).........


Paul,
Not quite sure what you're saying.

The example you quote, Salsette@44m, would also be out of the reach of SDs and some DLs. It is always going to be the case that some dives will be beyond the range of some of the divers. The secret is to also do enough dives in the sub 20m range so that everyone gets some diving. The dives you can't do is what encourages you to tackle the next rung on the ladder.
The alternative is you don't do deep dives and loose all the deep divers.

Ron.

[TerryH]

Hi All
So say we have the situation where "the branch" in question has an outing on the south coast to do the salsette in whoever umpteen metres the wreck is in and of course the OD's of which there are 2 of are told with great delight by many of the members of that branch "No you can't come with us because you are not experienced enough". (Does this sound familiar to anybody).........

Now this wipes out a good 70% of the branches population as it is a big trip, but our 2 enthusiastic OD's still want to go diving at a site that is within their qualification range and the rest of the branch are either doing other things or are apathetic.

Basically the OD's in question have the Hobson's choice of a "dive at risk" as renegades as nobody will provide the necessary shore cover.

Shame really as by comparison Padi OW's do not have this sheer level of red tape applied to them.

So the bottom line of this whole thread is a simple equation:

OCEAN DIVER = UNQUALIFIED :(

Can we have a show of hands as to those who originally qualified as Cd's/OD's and who had to do the odd at risk dive. (By the way I'm waving my hand in the air frantically, as I had to do lots, so from this experience am attempting "Deceased Equine Floggery" with the general populace to remove this insanity).

Cheer up folks it's only a forum :o

Paul


Nah, you've just fallen at the first hurdle :D

You have 10 seniors in 5 buddy pairs diving the Salsette as a first dive.
On the second, which I suspect will be the Gertrude/Fennell (15-20m max)
2 of the seniors will buddy up with one of the OD's each.

OD's get to see how a boat works, the seniors get a proper dive, so dont
mind doing the second with an OD who are happy as larry they got to go
on a real boat and do a nice 20m dive.

Before you say it, yes this will cost the equivilent of a space, but worth
a club sub of £40 to get 2x OD's diving. With a lot of clubs running boats
with the odd space, even on a same grade boat, it's not exactly a new thing.

Hand on heart, I can pretty much say that we've done this on almost every
trip anyway and if we cant sell a whole space, will go out of our way to sell
the half-space to an OD.

[Mike Halligan]

Nah, you've just fallen at the first hurdle :D

You have 10 seniors in 5 buddy pairs diving the Salsette as a first dive.
On the second, which I suspect will be the Gertrude/Fennell (15-20m max)
2 of the seniors will buddy up with one of the OD's each.

OD's get to see how a boat works, the seniors get a proper dive, so dont
mind doing the second with an OD who are happy as larry they got to go
on a real boat and do a nice 20m dive.

Before you say it, yes this will cost the equivilent of a space, but worth
a club sub of £40 to get 2x OD's diving. With a lot of clubs running boats
with the odd space, even on a same grade boat, it's not exactly a new thing.

Hand on heart, I can pretty much say that we've done this on almost every
trip anyway and if we cant sell a whole space, will go out of our way to sell
the half-space to an OD.

Couldn't agree more with this. "Seniors" need not fear emotional blackmail over the first dive if they make adequate provision for their successors in plans for the second. The Salsette is outside the remit of both SD and OD (and as Terry remarks many DL). Nothing will change that fact.

Let's stop looking at OD as a career grade. They may not really be divers to some here, but they can still become the ADs and Instructors of the future if not discouraged along the way. If they and those able to help devote themselves to developing their diving skills and thus don't remain tied / leave them to someone's apron strings, things happen surprisingly quickly. The more that OD are encouraged to become functioning SD, the better they will enjoy their diving and the sooner the current crop of AD can revert to self-interest. :eek:

[Gareth]

Hi All
So say we have the situation where "the branch" in question has an outing on the south coast to do the salsette in whoever umpteen metres the wreck is in and of course the OD's of which there are 2 of are told with great delight by many of the members of that branch "No you can't come with us because you are not experienced enough". (Does this sound familiar to anybody).........

Now this wipes out a good 70% of the branches population as it is a big trip, but our 2 enthusiastic OD's still want to go diving at a site that is within their qualification range and the rest of the branch are either doing other things or are apathetic.

Basically the OD's in question have the Hobson's choice of a "dive at risk" as renegades as nobody will provide the necessary shore cover.

Shame really as by comparison Padi OW's do not have this sheer level of red tape applied to them.

So the bottom line of this whole thread is a simple equation:

OCEAN DIVER = UNQUALIFIED :(

Can we have a show of hands as to those who originally qualified as Cd's/OD's and who had to do the odd at risk dive. (By the way I'm waving my hand in the air frantically, as I had to do lots, so from this experience am attempting "Deceased Equine Floggery" with the general populace to remove this insanity).

Cheer up folks it's only a forum :o

Paul

Paul

As Terry says you fall at the first hurdle. If all branch diving is set at OD level then you loose the experienced divers because there is little that the branch offers them. This is foolish in the extreme. It is the experienced members that make up the instructor base & the guys who organise the trips & mentor members.


On the basis that we generally book the boat for the weekend we have in the past planned three dives in the day.

Dive 1
Salsette = DL + depth experience (possibly further restrictions i.e. ADP, mix etc)

Dive 2
M2 = SD + depth experience

Dive 3
Fennell + Barmston + Gertrude Drift dive = DL + SD + OD

& a fine time is had by all. If you are somewhere like Bovisand (or Chesil) then you can even arrange an evening dive so thats four dives planned for the day.


Our branch has a diverse membership, BSAC, PADI, SSI.
2 FCD's
11 AD's
13 DL's
8 SD's
7 OD's
6 Tr's

Over half the membership have some form of instructor qualification. We've members diving on Rebreathers, Twinsets, Singles, etc. Divers with Full trimix, Sport Mix, ADP, ANx etc.

Because we ensure that there are dives offered for the more experienced, we always have excellent support from the experienced members willing to help out on the Ocean diver trips.

Granted the vast majority of trips are booked for SD experience. Some are booked on the basis of pick your own depth, i.e. scenic dives off the west coast of Scotland.

We actually have to block out spaces for Tr or OD on some trips to ensure there are places for them. We have, in the past had to book 2 or three boats to accommodate members on the 'shallow' trips to the likes of Weymouth/Portland, Plymouth, Farnes etc. This is because members want to go diving. As we say in our branch "if you book it ........they will come :) "

There is no need for OD's to dive at risk if you provide diving. When I was an NII it was never difficult to find a DL or Instructor to dive with, you normally just had to suggest a dive & they where in like Flynn. Then again it is about making the effort, as someone has ranted today, if you get p****ed around by someone you stop making the effort, & so do others in the branch.
I'm sure most branches have members who put there names down, ask for things to be organised etc, then normally fail to turn up.

Gareth

[TrevorB]

Paul

Our branch has a diverse membership, BSAC, PADI, SSI.
2 FCD's
11 AD's
13 DL's
8 SD's
7 OD's
6 Tr's

Gareth
Very pleased for you Gareth

But for a UNI branch where people are there for three years and cannot afford exotic boat trips these grades are not obtainable and Hamish's suggestion would make a lot of sense , and enable OD's to gain experience that would hasten their progress to Sports Diver and might bring Dive Leader within their grasp before the window of University support closes

[Gareth]

Very pleased for you Gareth

But for a UNI branch where people are there for three years and cannot afford exotic boat trips these grades are not obtainable and Hamish's suggestion would make a lot of sense , and enable OD's to gain experience that would hasten their progress to Sports Diver and might bring Dive Leader within their grasp before the window of University support closes


I appreciate that University branches have different issues.

To my certain knowledge we've had members leave the branch for university branches in the past. Holding grades from SD through to DL. We have also had / have members who learnt or gained experience at university.

University branches do seem to have particular issues. An ex buddy of mine said the best thing about university was that he had endless opportunities to go diving, but then he did leave our branch as an SD & was (is) addicted to diving.

Ultimately Univeristies by there nature have a revolving door when it comes to members, (similar to some other special branches). This is hopefully not a problem for 'normal' branches. Loosing the experienced base of a branch presents all sorts of difficulties for branches, those that loose out most are the newer members who miss out on the experience, knowledge & diving trips.

Gareth

[Nigel Hewitt]

I like doing the 'Wednesday evening' RIB dive for the club. I'll cox the boat and I'm doing the organising so, in theory, I set the buddy pairs. We will buzz out miles at the weekend but all we want on a Wednesday is a quick inshore splash and back for a pub supper.

I have 8 spaces before I need a cox for the other boat but the way our training cycle runs we do pool training and lectures over the winter and finish them off in the summer. This does mean that those who started at Christmas end up as ODs all year and by the end of the season they are pretty experienced ODs.

What I would like is a clear path for ODs to dive together on a dive they have done a dozen times accompanied because I have seven takers and five are ODs as the SDs got their fix on a wreck at the weekend.

Oh and the only BSAC qualification I have is Diver Coxn (and ADI).

[TrevorB]

Thanks Gareth

So support Hamish it won't hurt what you are doing and it would be a big help to branches like us with One AD one DL (one DL about to graduate) a couple of SD's and the rest ODs trying to get to SD

[bootneck]

I know its slightly off topic, but it is quite interesting how the make up and size of a club does have a large impact on the diving/training that OD,s get at the most important time of there diving life. The small club I belong to is as follows and I would be interested to see how other clubs are made up.

1 AD/OWI
1 D/L
3 SD
2 OW ( who can dive together )
6 OD,s
6 trainees.

The club is only 2 years old and will change but we spend 90% of the time sub 20m for OD,s. so allowing qualified divers to dive together would make a big difference to the amount of time we could give to trainees.

[TrevorB]

1 AD (OWI)
2 DL (one is ADI) (one is OWI)
7 SD (3 are ADI)
17 OD
9 trainees

The trainees either missed the open water session or had ear problems
and will hope fully become OD on the next open water session

[Gordon]

Our uni branch has (roughly)

1 AD AI
2 AD OWI
1 DL OWI
2 DL ADI
2 SD ADI
5 SD
20 OD
12 Tr

And almost all of our diving is done in about 10m of water, mostly off the shore. The ADs and DLs either have other friends to do exciting stuff with, or struggle to get diving passes for more than a day at a time. Most of our SDs haven't done any more than 20m, and are quite happy bimbling around in 10m of water leading a dive for an OD.

But, Warwick is not the real world!

[Ben Panter]

Oh and the only BSAC qualification I have is Diver Coxn (and ADI).

*polite cough*

[TerryH]

Our Uni branch has (roughly)

1 AD AI IT
2 AD AI IT SMGI
2 AD OWI OWSI
2 AD
4 DL OWI
8 DL ADI
11 SD ADI
2 SD
6 OW/AOW (Doing SD)
18 OD (SD Lectures/Pool/Drysuit done - OW March)
14 OD Trainees (Lectures/Pool/Drysuit done - OW March)

Dives are anything from shallow bimbles, upto some serious depth with mix.
Even these arent exclusive to seniors, we often let 2nd dives go to OD's etc.
Gives then a taste for hardboats and are pretty handy when kitting up ;)

[Mikey Dubb]

Sorry guys...cant be bothered to read through 11 pages or whatever so i assume this has already been asked. But a sports diver and an ocean diver can dive together on a regulated site WITHOUT a Dive manager yeah?

[Richard Whitcombe]

Sorry guys...cant be bothered to read through 11 pages or whatever so i assume this has already been asked. But a sports diver and an ocean diver can dive together on a regulated site WITHOUT a Dive manager yeah?

No.

The sports diver QRB itself says:

# conduct dives with an Ocean Diver within the restrictions of the conditions already encountered by the Ocean Diver during their training, and under the supervision of a Dive Manager

[Nigel Hewitt]

*polite cough*
ROTFL

I can count SDCs? Hey I have BSAC qualifications! Quite a list!

[Mikey Dubb]

So it does...awesome!...Thanks!

[Dm_]

The second issue is simply the Branch not providing a number of options in dive trips for the correct levels.
...
There is a likely hood that not arranging OD trips creates a situation where all the OD want to dive together.

Agree with GaryC

My personal example (beginner): hope to get OD card soon (few lessons left). SD training may start some time later due to "instructor availability" what is a common problem in many clubs as far as i know.

Most (actually all i think) of club trips require SD+ level. There may be some opportunities "diving with another bsac club" during summer, but "there is no guarantee"

So ... i may be lucky to get my own SD card by Christmas. And what should i do during this summer in UK? :o)

Answer is obvious - of course i'll buddy up for 15-20 dives with someone who is like me (or OW or CMAS* or wants "an easy going dive"). Summer, 18-20 m, good weather only, south coast (thanks, no ****py Stoney Cove or Gildenburgh), non-bsac DC. I think that everyone knows that many ODs do it anyway ...


My point is that from one point of view bsac system is great. I decided to go for it instead of padi for variety of reasons. However bsac's got few "points":

* club advises to use club equipment, and provides it for free until SD training is complete. But you are not allowed to hire it from the club for non-club trips until you are SD. So ... thanks, i'll use my own :o)

* N32 on AIR tables. And you can get the N32 card if you pay few extra quid. This rule means "feel free to violate me when no one from bsac is looking"

* bsac rules do not apply when diving abroad o:)

* with OD you can get cmas equivalency Card. Then bsac rules do not apply to you at all? :o)

[garethwoodruff]

Agree with GaryC

My personal example (beginner): hope to get OD card soon (few lessons left). SD training may start some time later due to "instructor availability" what is a common problem in many clubs as far as i know.

Most (actually all i think) of club trips require SD+ level. There may be some opportunities "diving with another bsac club" during summer, but "there is no guarantee"

So ... i may be lucky to get my own SD card by Christmas. And what should i do during this summer in UK? :o)

Answer is obvious - of course i'll buddy up for 15-20 dives with someone who is like me (or OW or CMAS* or wants "an easy going dive"). Summer, 18-20 m, good weather only, south coast (thanks, no ****py Stoney Cove or Gildenburgh), non-bsac DC. I think that everyone knows that many ODs do it anyway ...


My point is that from one point of view bsac system is great. I decided to go for it instead of padi for variety of reasons. However bsac's got few "points":

* club advises to use club equipment, and provides it for free until SD training is complete. But you are not allowed to hire it from the club for non-club trips until you are SD. So ... thanks, i'll use my own :o)

* N32 on AIR tables. And you can get the N32 card if you pay few extra quid. This rule means "feel free to violate me when no one from bsac is looking"

* bsac rules do not apply when diving abroad o:)

* with OD you can get cmas equivalency Card. Then bsac rules do not apply to you at all? :o)

lol , interesting assumptions there!

If you want to dive on 32% and put it into your computer and violate the rules, you can, its not the law. You can also go and dive to 40 meters.

CMAS is more restrictive in what you can do as a 1 star diver :p

Its unfortunate your branch does not offer more trips for Ocean Divers.

[Nigel Hewitt]

If you want to dive on 32% and put it into your computer and violate the rules, you can, its not the law. You can also go and dive to 40 meters.
Yes this is true.
We can make suggestions as to what the each of the levels of training we give should be used to do but we are not the dive police.

However remember... We haven't told you everything yet or we wouldn't hope you'd come back for the next level course...

also the sea is unforgiving and takes no prisoners.

[Dm_]

morning "bsac police" is already here :-) [ just kidding! ]


> If you want to dive on 32% and put it into your computer and violate the rules, you can, its not the law.

hold on.
My point was that bsac gives you a n32 card what's kind of ... useless, when padi allows you to get the extra minutes at the depth you qualified for.


> You can also go and dive to 40 meters

not sure that i'll be able to survive ppo2 :-) Nope, thanks. I'll stay at 19.9 until fully qualified to go any deeper.


> Its unfortunate your branch does not offer more trips for Ocean Divers.

true. But not much i can do about it. My options are to chat to few other nearby or ... (see above). Probably i'll go for both.


> also the sea is unforgiving and takes no prisoners.

Do not get me wrong, i've got some grey hair, normally drive 69.9 on motorway, have a family to look after, and so on. There are several places with depth 3-5 m where i shoud start.

[Dm_]

> We haven't told you everything yet or we wouldn't hope you'd come back for the next level course...

actually i've never said that i'm moving somewhere else ... (another missinterpretation). I just said that OD title is <censored> :o)

[MattS]

hold on. My point was that bsac gives you a n32 card what's kind of ... useless, when padi allows you to get the extra minutes at the depth you qualified for.The comparable PADI OW card does not qualify OWs to breathe anything but air.

At your stage of training and within the depths you are qualified to dive, breathing rate is typically the limiting factor rather than the no-stop time. Breathing Nitrox has benefits other than different decompression limits. They might not be important enough to you to warrant buying your own Nitrox card at this stage. Someone else, say someone over 50, might choose differently. BSAC has trained you to make that choice.

The BSAC OD qualification has given you more training at no additional cost. Some people would see that as a benefit.

I'll stay at 19.9 until fully qualified to go any deeper.So you agree with the need to limit your depth. Why not the need to have dedicated and qualified surface cover? What do you know that makes you want to pick and choose the 'rules' you will adhere to? Genuinely I am interested in knowing. It's a long time since I was the equivalent of an Ocean Diver.

There are several places with depth 3-5 m where i shoud start.Just wondering again. If OD allowed you to dive to 15m without dedicated and qualified surface cover, would that make it a better or worse qualification in your eyes. There is a review of BSAC training going on at the moment and I think it's questions like this we should be asking people like you.

[Dm_]

> The comparable PADI OW card does not qualify OWs to breathe anything but air.

i know, thanks. It's one of the reasons why did i go for bsac instead of padi. With bsac for 500 you can get a "package" what with padi would cost you 2.5 or 3 times more.


> ... What do you know that makes you want to pick and choose the 'rules' you will adhere to? ... Genuinely I am interested in knowing

:o)
it reminds me my mountaineering club when i lived in Scotland. Probably bsac rules are very simple compare to their rules :o) As a result few of us plus few other non-club members started traveling more on our own rather than with the club (highlands and abroad), and we've being doing it for many years (quite difficult for me now after moving south, to England). Yes, club is good and i had a great time with it, but at some point ... do you really need it?

> There is a review of BSAC training going on at the moment and I think it's questions like this we should be asking people like you.

thank you for asking but not sure that my vote does matter.

from one point of view,
if you add "15m in one case and 20m in another case" to the OD title description then it will confuse many DCs abroad. But many of those DCs do not really care about club specific rules anyway.

from another point of view,
i've heard about some ODs who are struggling to progress to SD level due to number of reasons. 99% of reasons is lack of experience, correct? And how exactly do you want them to get this experience if club is able to take them to the sea (proper sea) for a few dives per year only? You know that some people are not flexible like me, and will always do it by the book... It's like finding a first job for Uni graduates, no experience - no job.


As far as i can see (have friends in different countries from padi, cmas, dir and from german equivalent of bsac) there is no perfect system. Many PADI instructors have to run trainings on part-time basis because of lack of students. Bsac likes telling jokes about padi, but many clubs have 10-15 active members only when some other club members use it mostly as a free air station...

[Janos]

i've heard about some ODs who are struggling to progress to SD level due to number of reasons. 99% of reasons is lack of experience, correct?

Other way round. In my club I suspect around 99% of OD go straight on to SD with a couple of dives in between.

Janos

[Geoff123]

Other way round. In my club I suspect around 99% of OD go straight on to SD with a couple of dives in between.

Janos
I doubt whether yours is the norm.
DM is making some good points and I can concur with most of them; essentially if you are new to diving and you want to dive, you need to look outside of bsac for diving opportunities.
I don't know if this affecting bsac growth, but I can't see it helping.
Although I find the training exceptionally good, all done by dedicated volunteers, club diving once per month starting in April finishing in October is not conducive to providing good experience. Neither is instructors 'having' to accompany the 'trainees' to allow it to be a 'bsac / club dive'.
I feel sorry for the DO's having to follow the rules.
It is not maintaining safe diving, it is curtailing diving - not what you want if you join a dive club.:eek:

[Dm_]

> club diving once per month starting in April finishing in October is not conducive to providing good experience.

this is exactly what i was trying to say, thanks for helping me with the right wording ;)


> I feel sorry for the DO's having to follow the rules.

:D


> It is not maintaining safe diving, it is curtailing diving - not what you want if you join a dive club.:eek:

it would be nice that this words will be delivered to the bsac chairmans/society sooner or later. Believe me : bsac loses hundreds (thoursands?) of members and potential members per year due to complications involved in achieving the 2 stars (SD) level. It's like Uni grads who need to do something else rather than their diploma specialty due to lack of jobs for entry levels.

Yes, you can keep telling jokes about others [ nice jokes btw :o) ], but then do not get surprised when only 20-30 percent of club members are the real club members, every year on average 20-30 percent of club members leave the club, and rest (30-40+ percent) not sure why do they still keep the membership.

However, it doesn't mean that i think that padi's way where you can get aowd certificate/card during 3 (three) weekends (6 days. Jesus!) is the right way to learn...


MattS, you asked my opinion, fine. May be it be better to:

- make OD training a bit longer (few dives) AND a proper sea open water training should be the MUST "instead of" OR "in addition to" the mentioned above <censored>*py sites with 0.5 - 2.0 m visibility... But as a result OD should be allowed a little bit more than at present.

AND

- do not allow ODs to start SD course before they complete number of dives (10/20/25?) with OR without the club.

[Edward]

> It is not maintaining safe diving, it is curtailing diving - not what you want if you join a dive club.

it would be nice that this words will be delivered to the bsac chairmans/society sooner or later. Believe me : bsac loses hundreds (thoursands?) of members and potential members per year due to complications involved in achieving the 2 stars (SD) level. It's like Uni grads who need to do something else rather than their diploma specialty due to lack of jobs for entry levels.

So how many OD equivalents actually go diving without surface cover. Listening to some on here its thousands, but is it.

I've talked to a number of operators in different parts of the world and the consensus is. Unless individuals have all (including Tanks and weights) they will have to go out with an operator, none would hire kit to this level of diver.

Unlike in the UK, where Charter operators are just a taxi service, overseas its normally part of their business to also sell diving courses - so why miss the opportunity for a sale by hiring out kit. Additionally, many dive sites are only accessible by boat.

Where do other agencies say - "... within current experience, but without Dive Management support". Which in my opinion is new experience.

Regards

[Nigel Hewitt]

So how many OD equivalents actually go diving without surface cover. Listening to some on here its thousands, but is it?
Is the problem just inland clubs?

Here on the coast with our dive machine beginning to crank up to speed for the year we normally have three slots a week that ODs will fit into. Often more.

But the boats sit in the water walking distance from where I live so it's no trouble. We've had people come diving by bus. Once, when the car refused to start I called a taxi and took the rebreather in that.

I do get the impression that just 'going diving' can be a huge organisational problem to some clubs and I sympathise. I get the same thing with caving.

[Dm_]

> I do get the impression that just 'going diving' can be a huge organisational problem to some clubs

correct.
That's why you can find some new SDs who's never seen anything rather than NDC sites :D With their training, including dry-suit, are they actually ready for norwegian fjords (as an example)?


> Here on the coast with our dive machine beginning to crank up to speed for the year we normally have three slots a week that ODs will fit into. Often more

mid of summer too?
Brand new ODs from other inland clubs welcome too? :-)

[Gareth]

> club diving once per month starting in April finishing in October is not conducive to providing good experience.

this is exactly what i was trying to say, thanks for helping me with the right wording ;)


> I feel sorry for the DO's having to follow the rules.

:D


> It is not maintaining safe diving, it is curtailing diving - not what you want if you join a dive club.:eek:

it would be nice that this words will be delivered to the bsac chairmans/society sooner or later. Believe me : bsac loses hundreds (thoursands?) of members and potential members per year due to complications involved in achieving the 2 stars (SD) level. It's like Uni grads who need to do something else rather than their diploma specialty due to lack of jobs for entry levels.

Yes, you can keep telling jokes about others [ nice jokes btw :o) ], but then do not get surprised when only 20-30 percent of club members are the real club members, every year on average 20-30 percent of club members leave the club, and rest (30-40+ percent) not sure why do they still keep the membership.

However, it doesn't mean that i think that padi's way where you can get aowd certificate/card during 3 (three) weekends (6 days. Jesus!) is the right way to learn...


MattS, you asked my opinion, fine. May be it be better to:

- make OD training a bit longer (few dives) AND a proper sea open water training should be the MUST "instead of" OR "in addition to" the mentioned above <censored>*py sites with 0.5 - 2.0 m visibility... But as a result OD should be allowed a little bit more than at present.

AND

- do not allow ODs to start SD course before they complete number of dives (10/20/25?) with OR without the club.

It is interesting to read your experiences.

For what its worth my branch is very like Jano's branch. Our OD's go from Ocean Diver to Sports Diver.

As has been said before the branch system is both the strength & weakness of the BSAC. Each branch is independent of HQ, they are run by volunteers, the diving is based around there particular needs & interests.
Branches have a constitution basd on the BSAC template, they run training based on the BSAC DTP. They dive according to Safe Diving practices. Every thing else is more or less down to the members & committee. Some branches choose to sit in the pub & talk about diving, others choose to do no diver training, etc.

Your comment about making OD longer is interesting.
Prior to Ocean Diver (Club Diver), the system used to be N1 (pool), N2 (two open water dives), then SD (9 openwater lessons/assessments).
Until SD was achieved (completed & issued) you where only allowed to dive with a DL (not a SD).
Now, the number of dives before a useful diving qualifcation is issued is significantly less, you just complete OD. At OD you can dive with SD's & potentially OD's (dependent on DO's view).
This is why there is often a more conservative attitude taken by branches (DO's) when allowing OD's to dive than that stated on the BSAC paperwork.

We are cursed & blessed, we are a minimum of 2 - 2.5 hours from any coastal diving. But under an hour from one inland site & just over the hour to another. We have a pool every week this again is a blessing, & a curse it is our single largest expense, but gives a weekly focal point & makes teaching new students much easier.
We do a lot of diver training, basically throughout the year, although we try to avoid taking potential OD's into open water during December, January, February & March.... we don't want to put them off. Most weekends someone in the branch is diving, if only in one of the local inland sites. So there is always opportunity to go diving even if you are an OD.
Our coastal trips are either all day (Brighton), weekend, Lyme Regis, Plymouth, or 4 day/week trips, Penzance, Scapa.
As such the vast majority of trips are targeted at SD (the largest proportion of the membership), where the diving is interesting for the vast majority. There are more adventurous trips for those interested, & less adventurous trips for Trainees & OD's.
Last year we had a very plesent weekend in Weymouth with the OD's, but that did mean that for those instructing/leading, that they used up a weekend pass from SWMBO, plus the expenses of travelling, accomodation, food & drink & diving. That said, we did have to restrict places so that other members didn't take places assigned to OD's & trainees.
Whilst it is a pain to have to travel for coastal diving (you can't pop out for a dive when you get back from work), it does mean our members are prepared to travel to go diving, from Penzance, to Dover, to Scapa, & thats just the UK diving. (We have at least three groups going overseas for long weekends or a week this year).
We are not unique. What we achieve is down to the membership & the committee. It hasn't been achieved over a year, but over many years, & many committees. We have a good instructor base that shares the load (although openwater lessons are always the hardest to organise / complete). We have a branch attitude that we are here to go diving, as such we book a lot of trips & spend a lot of money organising diving (2010 it was over £25k).
Our start of year trip to Plymouth is this weekend, although suitable for OD's, we have none interested this year -- I don't know why despite a lot of 'PR'. So its full of the instructors & DL's who put there names down originally to help the OD's, & now SD's taking up the spare places.

The big difficulty for most is to differentiate between the BSAC, the governing body, & the branches which are all unique & individual.
It is not viable (or desirable) for the BSAC (HQ) to attempt to micro manage the branches. For some, there is already to much policy from the centre.

A quick comment on your last statement about DO's following the rules. Having had to deal with a serious incident in the past, as a DO following the guidelines was fantastic, all the crap about liability etc was quashed quickly. The same applied for the rest of the dive party & the buddy.
Not following the guidelines would have made life significantly more complicated & potentially very expensive.
Interestingly, the BSAC has very few RULES, but quite a lot of guidelines. The vast majority are there based on hard one experience, not flights of fancy.

Gareth

[Gareth]

> I do get the impression that just 'going diving' can be a huge organisational problem to some clubs

correct.
That's why you can find some new SDs who's never seen anything rather than NDC sites :D With their training, including dry-suit, are they actually ready for norwegian fjords (as an example)?


> Here on the coast with our dive machine beginning to crank up to speed for the year we normally have three slots a week that ODs will fit into. Often more

mid of summer too?
Brand new ODs from other inland clubs welcome too? :-)


Where are you based? (Add it to your profile).

There are often offers of spaces on trips from branches. We run so many trips a year that it is not unusual for us to advertise spaces to local branches. Or those that have joined us previously.

Gareth

[TerryH]

That's why you can find some new SDs who's never seen anything rather than NDC sites :D With their training, including dry-suit, are they actually ready for norwegian fjords (as an example)?


Do I smell a hint of hypocracy here ;)

If its wrong (and it is) for BSAC bods to make fun of other agencies, then
isnt it as wrong to do the same for those trained in one location vs another?

Nowt srong with being a Sport diver who loves quarries any more than
a Sport diver who lives in the sea. The problem only occurs when you
swap locations and unless you are just about to embark on a Norweigen
Fjord expedition, then who cares :p