Is a Club 4x4 a good idea?

[Iain H]

I'm trying to persuade my Club to buy a 4x4 (to get over the age old problem of finding someone willing and able to tow/slip the Club RIB). Has anyone got any advice on the cost/practicalities of owning a Club vehicle.

Thanks in advance ... Iain

[Trevor M]

I'm trying to persuade my Club to buy a 4x4 (to get over the age old problem of finding someone willing and able to tow/slip the Club RIB). Has anyone got any advice on the cost/practicalities of owning a Club vehicle.

Thanks in advance ... Iain

Hi Iain,

It's perhaps not quite what you're looking for, but our club (Uni. Bristol) looked into buying a club van for a similar purpose.

The full analysis can be found at the link below.

For our diving, we found it as cheap to hire vehicles when needed, rather than have a club one.

HTH,

T

[Steve Walker]

:=I'm trying to persuade my Club to buy a 4x4 (to get over the age old problem of finding someone willing and able to tow/slip the Club RIB). Has anyone got any advice on the cost/practicalities of owning a Club vehicle.
:=
:=Thanks in advance ... Iain

Hi Iain,

It's perhaps not quite what you're looking for, but our club (Uni. Bristol) looked into buying a club van for a similar purpose.

The full analysis can be found at the link below.

For our diving, we found it as cheap to hire vehicles when needed, rather than have a club one.

HTH,

T

I reckon the insurance could be prohibitive, number of drivers, their ages, etc. Probably need commercial insurance, was certainly a problem in my days as a gigging musician and the "Band Van"
Regards

[martin davies]

Hi Iain,

We had a similar situation in that our branch rib was too heavy to be towed by a "normal" car. We did purchase a club vehicle but rather than a 4x4 we also went for a "van". Its actually an old Ambulance - LWB Hi-top Transit - which we kitted out for 6 people. We went for one with the double rear wheels as this can take a much larger weight. Had other benefits too such as 24V
electrics etc etc and 2.9 petrol engine - a little thirsty - especially with the small tank it has fitted.

Insurance costs are modest - around ?350 pa for any driver over 25.

Its given us 6 years stirling service without any major costs, though just how long it'll contine remains to be seen.

HTH

Martin

[Ian Saunders]

:=I'm trying to persuade my Club to buy a 4x4 (to get over the age old problem of finding someone willing and able to tow/slip the Club RIB). Has anyone got any advice on the cost/practicalities of owning a Club vehicle.
:=
:=Thanks in advance ... Iain

Hi Iain,

It's perhaps not quite what you're looking for, but our club (Uni. Bristol) looked into buying a club van for a similar purpose.

The full analysis can be found at the link below.

For our diving, we found it as cheap to hire vehicles when needed, rather than have a club one.

HTH,

T

Our university club has also looked at the problem of not enough towing vehicles/too many people needing transporting/too much kit etc. We are fortunate to have access to the student union's LDV Convoy 16-seat minibuses (fitted with towbars) that we can use to transport people and kit to dive sites. Removing the back 2 rows of seats gave us enough room to transport 10 people, an inflatable boat, an engine, 20 cyliners, 10 full sets of dive kit and 10 sets of clothes in one minibus all the way from Bangor (North Wales) to Lochaline (on the Sound of Mull). Even though we calculated that all this fell under the 3500kg max weight, the engine and breaks were on the limit of their capabilities.

Hiring a vehicle would be a lot more efficient in the long run unless you are diving every weekend. For example, a new Land Rover Defender 90 (short wheel base) retails in the region of over ?20,000, add the tax, insurance, storage, wear and tear, servicing etc. and who is going to be in charge of this? Just be aware of how much time and money a boat takes to maintain, just extend that to running a club vehicle! Hiring a 4x4 on the other hand will cost in the region of ?75 per day, which will include insurance for anyone over 25, tax, wear and tear, accident damage waiver, servicing and breakdown cover. If it breaks down, a replacement vehicle will be brought out to replace the broken one so that you can continue on with your journey. The cost of hiring the 4x4 can be recovered from the trip members rather than all club members having to bear the brunt of incresed subs.

A long-wheelbase 4x4 (possibly a crew-cab to fit more people in and reduce the number of cars needed to be takend on a trip) would be a better bet as you would be less likely to get stuck on a beach or an algae-covered slip way. But you can occasionally find ex-National Grid 4x4 Transit Vans at auction, complete with a winch and towbar but these would be quite rare and more expensive than a standard 4x4 or van of the same age/condition.

This would be a very big investment for any club - you committee will have to think long and hard about this. You'll need to get quotes to buy suitable vehicles (divide the purchase cost over say 4-5 years) and to insure them, tax them, service them every year, put it through a MOT test, a replacement clutch and exhaust, storage of it (do you want it parked on your driveway for weeks, dripping oil?) and then work out if your club can actually afford it without dramatically increasing subs.

Sorry not to be of more help but the logistics of a club boat is bad enough without including a vehicle on top of it!

Ian

[Trevor M]

Our university club has also looked at the problem of not enough towing vehicles/too many people needing transporting/too much kit etc. We are fortunate to have access to the student union's LDV Convoy 16-seat minibuses (fitted with towbars) that we can use to transport people and kit to dive sites.

Ian,

I was under the impression that towing anything behind a minibus was a big no-no? Not sure whether this is a local rule enforced by our Univ's Health & Safety guy, or a insurance problem - might be worth looking into.

Cheers,

T

[TerryH]

I'm trying to persuade my Club to buy a 4x4 (to get over the age old problem of finding someone willing and able to tow/slip the Club RIB). Has anyone got any advice on the cost/practicalities of owning a Club vehicle.

Get a transit. This trusty van has done be proud from the Mark
1 upto my curent smiley front (just about to change to the new
one).

You can pick up a low mileage V/W (2000) 190 high top 2.5
diesel for about ?4k at auction. Go to local dealers and you
would be into about ?6k.

The bed of the tranni is 3m and this means that you can add
another row of seats, which also have the seat belt mountings
in place on the floorpan. Even with this lot you will have
about 1.8m of massive floor space in the back for shedloads of
kit. Access to the rear seats is of course via the sideloading
door and you could put a window in the panel if you really
want to, but no window and a pull over curtain means no outward
signs of kit inside.

I've even seen one wagon with a bench seat in the second row and fold down bunk beds fitted to the sides.

Accomodation as well! Can't be bad.

Towing a boat with the higher rated 2.5 diesel engine and all
that torque? No problems. Remember the ground clearance is as
high as a 4x4 anyway.

Result 6 divers + kit and boat.

These wagons keep going. servicing and spares are cheap and
plentyful and you can romp them all day without problems. When
your sick of them you can still get a good s/h price.

Commercial Insurance. Any driver, around the ?300 mark
depending on post code.

Look for utility service vehicles. British gas fitters etc.
They sit outside the job all day and are usually very local, so
low mileage.

HTH
TerryH

[edward haynes]

Ian

Carrying people and equipment i.e. cargo in the same vehicle could be contravening the H&S legislation. As you have removed seats your Uni would find it very difficult to defend and could have to pay out if there was personal injury to any of the passengers.


Our university club has also looked at the problem of not enough towing vehicles/too many people needing transporting/too much kit etc. We are fortunate to have access to the student union's LDV Convoy 16-seat minibuses (fitted with towbars) that we can use to transport people and kit to dive sites. Removing the back 2 rows of seats gave us enough room to transport 10 people, an inflatable boat, an engine, 20 cyliners, 10 full sets of dive kit and 10 sets of clothes in one minibus all the way from Bangor (North Wales) to Lochaline (on the Sound of Mull). Even though we calculated that all this fell under the 3500kg max weight, the engine and breaks were on the limit of their capabilities.

Edward

[Declan Daly]

Hi Martin
What Insurance company do you use? We pay over 800 for
insuring our 4x4 County Transit 2.5 turbo diesel.

We have a 6.5 m rib to tow and this is the ideal vehicle.
The low ratio 4 wheel drive is ideal for slipways and the
2.5 turbo diesel tows at a reasonable speed. (for 20 mpg)

Thanks
Declan




Hi Iain,

We had a similar situation in that our branch rib was too heavy to be towed by a "normal" car. We did purchase a club vehicle but rather than a 4x4 we also went for a "van". Its actually an old Ambulance - LWB Hi-top Transit - which we kitted out for 6 people. We went for one with the double rear wheels as this can take a much larger weight. Had other benefits too such as 24V
electrics etc etc and 2.9 petrol engine - a little thirsty - especially with the small tank it has fitted.

Insurance costs are modest - around ?350 pa for any driver over 25.

Its given us 6 years stirling service without any major costs, though just how long it'll contine remains to be seen.

HTH

Martin

[Ian Saunders]

:=Our university club has also looked at the problem of not enough towing vehicles/too many people needing transporting/too much kit etc. We are fortunate to have access to the student union's LDV Convoy 16-seat minibuses (fitted with towbars) that we can use to transport people and kit to dive sites.

Ian,

I was under the impression that towing anything behind a minibus was a big no-no? Not sure whether this is a local rule enforced by our Univ's Health & Safety guy, or a insurance problem - might be worth looking into.

Cheers,

T

Under the DVLA regulations any person who has a D1+E licence is able to tow behind a minibus. This will apply to most people who passed their test before 1997. If you check your driving licence (if you passed your test before 1997) then you will see a D1+E category on your licence. The +E bit refers to towing a trailer. The DVLA has information leaflets on driving licences, minibus driving (INF28) and towing licences (INF30). They can be found at the linked website.

The university health and safety department follow MIDAS and DVLA regulations on regards to minibus drivers towing trailers , and hence any minibus drivers wanting to tow trailers need to have the D1+E category on their driving licence and take a further MIDAS test with an approved instructor. Towing a trailer behind a minibus is not illegal if you have the correct categories on your licence.

Thanks for your concern anyway.

Ian

[Ian Saunders]

Ian

Carrying people and equipment i.e. cargo in the same vehicle could be contravening the H&S legislation. As you have removed seats your Uni would find it very difficult to defend and could have to pay out if there was personal injury to any of the passengers.


:=Our university club has also looked at the problem of not enough towing vehicles/too many people needing transporting/too much kit etc. We are fortunate to have access to the student union's LDV Convoy 16-seat minibuses (fitted with towbars) that we can use to transport people and kit to dive sites. Removing the back 2 rows of seats gave us enough room to transport 10 people, an inflatable boat, an engine, 20 cyliners, 10 full sets of dive kit and 10 sets of clothes in one minibus all the way from Bangor (North Wales) to Lochaline (on the Sound of Mull). Even though we calculated that all this fell under the 3500kg max weight, the engine and breaks were on the limit of their capabilities.

Edward

This is another thing we have looked into. To prevent any kit from "flying forward" in an accident we had a temporary steel mesh bulkhead fixed behind the rear-most row of seats to prevent cylinders from mutilating people. In an the event of an accident, this is deemed sufficicient by the HSE to prevent injury to a driver. Just remember how you get to a dive site - do you send your kit ahead by post? I don't remember seeing the postman turning up at a dive site before today!
We are well aware that cylinders can turn into missiles in the event of a crash (I have seen the results of a twin-set plouging through a car in an accident before today, nearly hitting the driver). For this reason, the cylinders were also strapped down on to the floor using ratchet straps that are designed to keep loads secure on HGV trailers using eye bolts that we attached to the chassis using the holes that the seats attach into. We couldn't shift the cylinders in any way once they had been strapped down.
As with all university clubs, we have to comply with HSE guidelines in lots of cases - it even creeps into our dive planning. The university were aware of what we were doing and we would not have been able to take the minibus anywhere if there was an unacceptable risk of injury to any passenger. I was in the minibus all the way there and all the way back - there was no way I wanted to be hit in the head by a cylinder in an accident!

Hope this relieves any worries

Ian

[Trevor M]

Under the DVLA regulations any person who has a D1+E licence is able to tow behind a minibus. This will apply to most people who passed their test before 1997. If you check your driving licence (if you passed your test before 1997) then you will see a D1+E category on your licence. The +E bit refers to towing a trailer. The DVLA has information leaflets on driving licences, minibus driving (INF28) and towing licences (INF30). They can be found at the linked website.

The university health and safety department follow MIDAS and DVLA regulations on regards to minibus drivers towing trailers , and hence any minibus drivers wanting to tow trailers need to have the D1+E category on their driving licence and take a further MIDAS test with an approved instructor. Towing a trailer behind a minibus is not illegal if you have the correct categories on your licence.


Hi Ian,

I followed this up with our own Uni H&S guy, who was very helpful. He (perhaps mistakenly) assumes that the vast majority of current students didn't pass their test before 1997 (although I and other slightly older instructors did) and so don't have the D+E1 tag on their license...hence the reason why people generally think it's not allowed.

This opens up a few possibilities for trips in the future - cheers for help!

T

[Geoff Oldfield]

Hi there, we have used a minibus (Transit) to tow a quite large RIB, and wonder about your comment in the notes you linked to on your preceding posting. Could you explain the following extract....
What about mini-buses?

Technically providing that you are not driving for hire or reward then you are allowed to drive a minibus. You are however NOT allowed to tow anything behind a minibus. The total mass of the minibus when loaded must not exceed 3,500kg.

Regards

Geoff O

[Mike Halligan]

Hi there, we have used a minibus (Transit) to tow a quite large RIB, and wonder about your comment in the notes you linked to on your preceding posting. Could you explain the following extract....

Hi, Geoff,

Look on the DVLA site. It rather depends whether you've retained "Grandfather rights" to drive D1 vehicles, and then whether your insurance company will play ball.

HTH

Mike

[edward haynes]

Ian

Sounds good, my concern was just removing the seats to make room for kit was not safe.

You've done quite a detailed Risk Assessment and modified the vehicle appropriately.

One last concern. Does the vehicle still comply with the Construction & Use Regulations? Not the domain of the HSE this one, but the Vehicle Inspectorate.

Edward


This is another thing we have looked into. To prevent any kit from "flying forward" in an accident we had a temporary steel mesh bulkhead fixed behind the rear-most row of seats to prevent cylinders from mutilating people. In an the event of an accident, this is deemed sufficicient by the HSE to prevent injury to a driver. Just remember how you get to a dive site - do you send your kit ahead by post? I don't remember seeing the postman turning up at a dive site before today!
We are well aware that cylinders can turn into missiles in the event of a crash (I have seen the results of a twin-set plouging through a car in an accident before today, nearly hitting the driver). For this reason, the cylinders were also strapped down on to the floor using ratchet straps that are designed to keep loads secure on HGV trailers using eye bolts that we attached to the chassis using the holes that the seats attach into. We couldn't shift the cylinders in any way once they had been strapped down.
As with all university clubs, we have to comply with HSE guidelines in lots of cases - it even creeps into our dive planning. The university were aware of what we were doing and we would not have been able to take the minibus anywhere if there was an unacceptable risk of injury to any passenger. I was in the minibus all the way there and all the way back - there was no way I wanted to be hit in the head by a cylinder in an accident!

Hope this relieves any worries

Ian