View Full Version : Official branch dives
Lindsey Doyle
06-05-2003, 22:21
Firstly apologies if this topic has been covered before - I did try searching for posts with no success.
As a new DO I want to establish my responsibilities, including this:
The BOH 10th edition, March 2000 defines an official branch dive as one that is carried out with the knowledge and approval of the BDO.
Is this the up-to-date definition?
Does it allow me to KNOW our tekkie members are diving outside BSAC recommendations but not "approve", therefore not be responsible?
Cheers, Lindsey.
iainmsmith
06-05-2003, 23:32
Firstly apologies if this topic has been covered before - I did try searching for posts with no success.
As a new DO I want to establish my responsibilities, including this:
The BOH 10th edition, March 2000 defines an official branch dive as one that is carried out with the knowledge and approval of the BDO.
Is this the up-to-date definition?
Does it allow me to KNOW our tekkie members are diving outside BSAC recommendations but not "approve", therefore not be responsible?
Theoretically, yes, but it's not quite as simple as that. What happens if, for example, the Branch is diving on a relatively deep wreck that your "tekkies" want to use 50% deco on from 21m, or O2 deco at 6m? Do you state that _their_ dives are not part of the overall Branch diving, even if it takes place from a club boat or club boat booking?
Also, if you don't "approve" the dive, this implies that you are saying that the dive should not take place. How can that be compatible with the above?
This situation may also be blurred by your Branch Bye-Laws/other rules, eg for us, any dive that requires the use of club equipment requires the authority of the DO and hence is automatically a club dive. Now this might cause an issue as a number of us are trimix divers and to dive in accordance with our training _have_ to violate BSAC's SDPs.
Fortunately, there is a get-out built into SDPs. From the Introduction to BSAC SDPs:
"Diving is an adventure sport and like all adventure sports its participants require differing levels of enjoyment and challenge. At one extreme we have the equivalent of the Himalayan mountaineer who, in peak condition accepts the challenge of new routes and exploration. At the other extreme we have the equivalent of the weekend summer climber who potters around on popular well-climbed rock faces.
What is safe diving practice for the former may well be very perilous for the latter and so the contents of this booklet are not a set of rigid rules but recommendations for safe diving practices. These recommendations can be amended depending upon the particular type of diving being planned and the experience and capabilities of the two divers carrying out the dive."
However, I can see that there might still be difficulties if the divers are doing dives which you yourself are not qualified to do - after all, how can you make a decision to waive official SDPs without the knowledge or understanding of why the divers wish you to do so? You might wish to appoint an Assistant Marshal who does hold a suitable qualification for such dives (in the same way that ANX/RB dives should be Marshalled by at least a suitably qualified Assistant Marshal)
I think, however, the moment that you (as DO) say to someone, "Yes, you may do that dive." you accept some responsibility for it. How far you are prepared to stick your neck out is ultimately up to you. I was quite lucky as DO, in that if such a dive was happening, the chances were that I was one of those doing the dive!
If you know that the divers are planning a dive within the limits of their qualifications then you might feel happier about allowing them to do so. You should be wary of allowing someone to dive outside the limits of their qualifications.
For the definitive answer, you need to contact HQ, though.
[soap box]
There is, of course, a really easy way for this (recurrent) issue to be put to bed for good - all it takes is for BSAC (a _recreational_ diving agency) to recognise that other agencies issue valid certifications and, indeed, _technical_ certifications which go well beyond anything that the BSAC has any business teaching. If people have been trained, assessed and certified to those standards, they should be entitled to dive to the limits of the certification.
[/soap box]
Iain
> If people have been trained, assessed and certified to those
> standards, they should be entitled to dive to the limits of
> the certification.
Hear, hear.
Vic.
john kendall
07-05-2003, 00:03
> If people have been trained, assessed and certified to those
> standards, they should be entitled to dive to the limits of
> the certification.
Hear, hear.
Oddly enough, I also agree with this.
John
Lindsey Doyle
07-05-2003, 00:47
Theoretically, yes, but it's not quite as simple as that. What happens if, for example, the Branch is diving on a relatively deep wreck that your "tekkies" want to use 50% deco on from 21m, or O2 deco at 6m? Do you state that _their_ dives are not part of the overall Branch diving, even if it takes place from a club boat or club boat booking?
>>Don't think I could.......
Also, if you don't "approve" the dive, this implies that you are saying that the dive should not take place.
>>Does it have to imply that? If THEY (but not me!) are otherwise qualified to do the dive?
This situation may also be blurred by your Branch Bye-Laws/other rules, eg for us, any dive that requires the use of club equipment requires the authority of the DO and hence is automatically a club dive.
>>and for us.
However, I can see that there might still be difficulties if the divers are doing dives which you yourself are not qualified to do - after all, how can you make a decision to waive official SDPs without the knowledge or understanding of why the divers wish you to do so? You might wish to appoint an Assistant Marshal who does hold a suitable qualification for such dives (in the same way that ANX/RB dives should be Marshalled by at least a suitably qualified Assistant Marshal)
>> It's certainly encouraging me to learn more technical stuff, for DO role, not myself (yet!)
I think, however, the moment that you (as DO) say to someone, "Yes, you may do that dive." you accept some responsibility for it. How far you are prepared to stick your neck out is ultimately up to you.
>>thanks, Iain, this is just what I wanted, it's got me thinking outside myself!!
If you know that the divers are planning a dive within the limits of their qualifications then you might feel happier about allowing them to do so. You should be wary of allowing someone to dive outside the limits of their qualifications.
>>yep, agreed.
:=> If people have been trained, assessed and certified to those
:=> standards, they should be entitled to dive to the limits of
:=> the certification.
:=
:=Hear, hear.
Oddly enough, I also agree with this.
John
As do I.
Rowan.
Adam Worth
07-05-2003, 12:13
:=:=> If people have been trained, assessed and certified to those
:=:=> standards, they should be entitled to dive to the limits of
:=:=> the certification.
:=:=
:=:=Hear, hear.
:=
:=Oddly enough, I also agree with this.
:=
:=John
As do I.
Rowan.
It sounds simple, but how would BSACs insurers feel about it. Anyone could set themselves up as a training agency and award qualifications to dive to any depth on any gas with whatever standard they see fit.
BSAC could publish a list of bodies whos qualifications they recognise as meeting reasonable standards and recognise only qualifications awarded by bodies on the list. There would need to be some way of assessing candidates for the list, either by their existing reputation in the diving community or by inspection. It could be a bit of a minefield.
Mike Halligan
07-05-2003, 12:15
OK, so let's try a different tack.
If, as in the case of rebreathers, we can produce guidance for those accompanying and marshalling divers whose technology we don't yet share within the mainstream of BSAC Branch diving, can we not do the same for Trimix, and indeed Nitrox?
I believe that we can and probably should provide adequate marshalling (whether from amongst our trained "specialists" or elsewhere) for all non-standard activities. Only with this caveat of adequate cover and marshalling, do we dive right now on air. What is different? I know that, as a newly qualified Nitrox user, I would much prefer the marshall to be nitrox aware. We know from the gradual adoption of other technologies (BCDs, DSMBs, Independent AAS) that each new one will ultimately turn mainstream and then become permissible within SDP.
If this course is followed, then your carefully claused soap box makes self-evident sense and is overdue for incorporation within SDP.
There is, of course, a really easy way for this (recurrent) issue to be put to bed for good - all it takes is for BSAC (a _recreational_ diving agency) to recognise that other agencies issue valid certifications and, indeed, _technical_ certifications which go well beyond anything that the BSAC has any business teaching. If people have been trained, assessed and certified to those standards, they should be entitled to dive to the limits of the certification.
Regards,
Mike
(PADI EANx)
It sounds simple, but how would BSACs insurers feel about it. Anyone could set themselves up as a training agency and award qualifications to dive to any depth on any gas with whatever standard they see fit.
You are not allowed to teach a comercial course in the UK unless it has been sanctioned by HSE, that's why people have been talking about GUE courses for ages but they have only just started doing them.
BSAC could publish a list of bodies whos qualifications they recognise as meeting reasonable standards and recognise only qualifications awarded by bodies on the list. There would need to be some way of assessing candidates for the list, either by their existing reputation in the diving community or by inspection. It could be a bit of a minefield.
But we already do it for the SALT transfers and only specific Trimix qualifiactions are allowed (see <a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/ndcbltn/mix39.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/ndcbltn/mix39.htm</a>) so what's the problem. In effect all we would be saying is "these people have been trained by another agency to do xyz they must dive within their training" whereas at the moment we are effectively saying they have been trained but we don't trust their training so we are applying special rules to it - how much of a field day would a decent lawyers have with that?
"So Mr BSAC you felt the deceased training was some how deficient, so much so you felt you had to apply special restrictions. Yet even with this poor training you still let that individual do the 65m trimix dive......."
At the moment we have the worst of both worlds.
OK, so let's try a different tack.
If, as in the case of rebreathers, we can produce guidance for those accompanying and marshalling divers whose technology we don't yet share within the mainstream of BSAC Branch diving, can we not do the same for Trimix, and indeed Nitrox?
I believe that we can and probably should provide adequate marshalling (whether from amongst our trained "specialists" or elsewhere) for all non-standard activities. Only with this caveat of adequate cover and marshalling, do we dive right now on air. What is different? I know that, as a newly qualified Nitrox user, I would much prefer the marshall to be nitrox aware. We know from the gradual adoption of other technologies (BCDs, DSMBs, Independent AAS) that each new one will ultimately turn mainstream and then become permissible within SDP.
If this course is followed, then your carefully claused soap box makes self-evident sense and is overdue for incorporation within SDP.
:=
:=There is, of course, a really easy way for this (recurrent) issue to be put to bed for good - all it takes is for BSAC (a _recreational_ diving agency) to recognise that other agencies issue valid certifications and, indeed, _technical_ certifications which go well beyond anything that the BSAC has any business teaching. If people have been trained, assessed and certified to those standards, they should be entitled to dive to the limits of the certification.
:=
There are already guide lines for marshalling Trimix that basically say the Marshall or his assistant must be mix qualified
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/ndcbltn/mix39.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/ndcbltn/mix39.htm</a>
BSAC could publish a list of bodies whos qualifications they recognise as meeting reasonable standards and recognise only qualifications awarded by bodies on the list. There would need to be some way of assessing candidates for the list, either by their existing reputation in the diving community or by inspection. It could be a bit of a minefield.
BSAC already has a list of recognised agencies for Trimix (see
NDC Bulletin 39) that include TDI, IANTD, ITDA and ANDI. The issue that I have as do others is that BSAC say that they recognise the training and qualifications from these organisations, but then go on to put extra restrictions on what people can do with the qualifications that they have earned. At times BSAC best practice goes against what people are taught is best practice on their Trimix training. Personally I would rather follow my training from a technical agency than the recommendations of a recreational agency.
Regards,
Rowan.
Mike Halligan
07-05-2003, 13:48
:=If this course is followed, then your carefully claused soap box makes self-evident sense and is overdue for incorporation within SDP.
:=:=
:=:=There is, of course, a really easy way for this (recurrent) issue to be put to bed for good - all it takes is for BSAC (a _recreational_ diving agency) to recognise that other agencies issue valid certifications and, indeed, _technical_ certifications which go well beyond anything that the BSAC has any business teaching. If people have been trained, assessed and certified to those standards, they should be entitled to dive to the limits of the certification.
:=:=
There are already guide lines for marshalling Trimix that basically say the Marshall or his assistant must be mix qualified
http://www.bsac.org/techserv/ndcbltn/mix39.htm
So, having amply demonstrated my own ignorance, I revert to a simple "Me too" endorsement of Iain's premise.
Mike :)
Gareth Jones
07-05-2003, 14:04
mmmmm,
Bin there done that. The problem is generaly one of ignorance or pehaps lack of knowledge. Myself and regular buddy do dive outside the BSAC recomendations - but thats all they are, recommendations. Ok the DO is legaly responsible for the clubs diving activities.
We were diving Dorethea and came to the aid of another diver who had missed 40min of stops from his 90+ Trimix dive. We rendered assistance and we congratulated by the chamber for helping him recover. BUT because we were BSAC members our DO got grief from Alistar Renolds who quite rightly asked what branch members were dong there!
As far as we were concerned it was a private dive. Both of us are AD's and ERD trained. Suitably equiped and experanced. No other branch members were there.
My idea would be to look at SALT and the TRIMIX details on the site and dive to your qualifications recommendations. If its a club dive then the DO should recognise your qualification and no give you any bother.
I would not mix ERD/Trimix diving with normal branch activites as its not fai to have 2hr dives whilst others are waiting on the boat. But if its an ERD/tekike trip then the DO should be able to sanction it.
As a final thought what are peoples definitions of a club dive? If I went down to 80mts and died who'sfault is it surly not the DO's?
Gareth Jones
07-05-2003, 14:04
mmmmm,
Bin there done that. The problem is generaly one of ignorance or pehaps lack of knowledge. Myself and regular buddy do dive outside the BSAC recomendations - but thats all they are, recommendations. Ok the DO is legaly responsible for the clubs diving activities.
We were diving Dorethea and came to the aid of another diver who had missed 40min of stops from his 90+ Trimix dive. We rendered assistance and we congratulated by the chamber for helping him recover. BUT because we were BSAC members our DO got grief from Alistar Renolds who quite rightly asked what branch members were dong there!
As far as we were concerned it was a private dive. Both of us are AD's and ERD trained. Suitably equiped and experanced. No other branch members were there.
My idea would be to look at SALT and the TRIMIX details on the site and dive to your qualifications recommendations. If its a club dive then the DO should recognise your qualification and no give you any bother.
I would not mix ERD/Trimix diving with normal branch activites as its not fai to have 2hr dives whilst others are waiting on the boat. But if its an ERD/tekike trip then the DO should be able to sanction it.
As a final thought what are peoples definitions of a club dive? If I went down to 80mts and died who'sfault is it surly not the DO's?
Nigel Hewitt
07-05-2003, 19:38
We were diving Dorethea and came to the aid of another diver who had missed 40min of stops from his 90+ Trimix dive. We rendered assistance and we congratulated by the chamber for helping him recover. BUT because we were BSAC members our DO got grief from Alistar Renolds who quite rightly asked what branch members were dong there!
As far as we were concerned it was a private dive. Both of us are AD's and ERD trained. Suitably equiped and experanced. No other branch members were there.
I am horrified. You mean somebody could sneak a picture of the diluent cylinder in my rebreather and use the Trimix stickers to try to get my BSAC DO in the poo? If I go on a club dive I play by BSAC's rules because that's only fair. If I'm out with friends the poor old DO can hardly be blamed for what I do.
As a final thought what are peoples definitions of a club dive? If I went down to 80mts and died who's fault is it surly not the DO's?
Which is why I would not mention plans for such dives in any detail to the gentleman. I have no wish to compromise his position.... Unless I know he wants to come too. Then however he is a private individual on a private dive too, not on BSAC's insurance.
nigelH
Andy Nye
08-05-2003, 16:25
I was a D.O and T.O at my branch for 3 years on the trot,and all i was intrested in was that people dived safe and if training dives were taking place, then i wanted to know about them. i.e a Novice diver going for a jolly in a rib and doing a shallow dive after the main party had done a deep wreck dive ( we have a small bay here where sometimes we do a second dive to waste the last 50 bar & get a crab for tea ). I just wanted to make sure that training had taken place and the experienced diver was satisfied in the completed drill.
I was NOT perpared to be phoned up at all hours of the day hearing " is it ok for me to go diving in a few hours time with such and such ".
The reason i was not longer to be a DO was that i'm not a ADVANCED DIVER or a Instructor, to which many of the novices dipped out , because as many do shift work here and i was working on callouts and maybe 3 hours work a day, i could go ribbing and diving at anytime.
Having said that,basically any diver that wants to go diving and wants to be insured for doing so is very easy ,,,,, GET YOUR OWN PERSONAL INSURANCE....Simple
I would say that nowadays 80% of recreational diving is done privately anyway,much more simplier and easier, plus you can get to dive how you want to.
I will never tell any DO what diving i'm up to, why should they know ? My DO knows that i'm a working/quailified and experienced diver.
And to Lindseys question,,,, nowadays most divers have more experience & quailifications than most To's and DO's anyway.Divers are out getting expereinces and quail's rather than sat around teaching and perparing lessons.
How can a DO tell me not to do a dive if he is not quailified or experienced in RB's or Trimix ?
Andy
How can a DO tell me not to do a dive if he is not quailified or experienced in RB's or Trimix?
Probably because you have such a complacent attitude, he feels
you need telling!
You might be the best diver in the world, but to proudly boast
(it was a boast wasnt it?) that you couldnt be a**ed to tell
the DO, because of your "experience & qualifications" is a little arrogant to say the least.
If the DO wasnt RB or Trimix qualified than under BSAC
guidelines he must take advice from somebody that is.
As such an experinced diver you could quite easily be the
Marshal on a Trimix/RB dive, but why wouldnt you use common
courtesy to tell him what you had planned. He is after all
the one who is legally responsible within the club when you f**k
up.
I've worked as TO under three DO's all of which have had junior
qualifications and experience to my own. Two of them I actually
trained up from day one. Yet I will still present dive plans
and still ring/text them after the days diving.
Try looking at this years Incident reports. An awful lot more
of your so called "experienced" divers are having problems.
Maybe a simple run through with the DO might not be such a bad
idea after all.
You can choose to read this as a personal dig Andy, or you can
look on it as a genuine concern that overconfidence in one's
own ability is the quickest way to become a statistic.
That's why having the DO as a third party safety check is so important.
TerryH
edward haynes
08-05-2003, 18:39
Lindsey
You have mail in your yahoo account.
Hope it helps. When you read it you will see why I haven't posted publicly. Hopefully the information will hit the Public domain before too long.
Edward Haynes
BOH 03
Project Manager
Andy Nye
09-05-2003, 11:41
:=How can a DO tell me not to do a dive if he is not quailified or experienced in RB's or Trimix?
Probably because you have such a complacent attitude, he feels
you need telling!
*** As my DO is a good mate, he knows what i can and won't do, perhaps this is half the problem ***
You might be the best diver in the world, but to proudly boast
(it was a boast wasnt it?)******* No I'm not boasting ,and you read it wrong ******
As such an experinced diver you could quite easily be the
Marshal on a Trimix/RB dive, but why wouldnt you use common
courtesy to tell him what you had planned. He is after all
the one who is legally responsible within the club when you f**k
up.
*** I've never F**ked up, maybe there will be a time one day, but i don't go out looking for it ***.
*** Because of the hours i work underwater during a normal working week, weekends are my off gassing days, and i GIVE UP my FREE FAMILY time to cox the clubs hard boat and be dive marshall for the rest of the club to enjoy themselves ***.
I've worked as TO under three DO's all of which have had junior
qualifications and experience to my own. Two of them I actually
trained up from day one. Yet I will still present dive plans
and still ring/text them after the days diving.
*** Thats your choice ***.
Try looking at this years Incident reports. An awful lot more
of your so called "experienced" divers are having problems.
*** I do and have looked, and being honest it scares the S**T out of me, BUT you must remember that RECREATIONAL diving is so different to COMMERCIAL diving ,but as i do both, i can give comments/opinions/views from seeing from the other side of the fence , so to speak. ***
You can choose to read this as a personal dig Andy, or you can
look on it as a genuine concern that overconfidence in one's
own ability is the quickest way to become a statistic.
*** I don't find it as a dig Terry, and hopefully my own choices of the way i dive have kept me from being a statistic, i am very concerned about my own personal safety and that of others. ***
Andy
Andy. You are: An advanced/senior diver with both a
recreational & commercial background who is "known" enough by
the DO not to give him your dive details. You say you have never
f.... had an "error".
All that says to me is that you are almost at the top (just
below recently qualified divers) of the chances of having a
problem list.
Why?
You say you are experinced, fine dont doubt it, but all I read
is complacency. Does having shedload of dives and experience
make you immune from becoming a cropper? Too many of the now
deceased top divers might disagree with you.
The fact remains that anybody that claims never to have made
mistakes or f**cked up is just about ready statisticly to have
one. I would be happier if you had said I made mistakes and
learnt by them. That IMO makes you a better diver.
IMO Your DO is wrong to accept your experience as a gold card
for diving. Again how many of the hundreds of deceased
experienced diver stories do you need to read before you
realise that your are not infalible and part of
being "experienced" is knowing that.
"hopefully my own choices of the way i dive have kept me from
being a statistic"
So far, odds are working against you.
TerryH
Thumper Rider
09-05-2003, 15:23
Some points spring to mind after reading this interesting thread:
1. If you dive outside of BSAC, then qed you are not covered by their insurance.
2. Like it or not if you go on a dive which is organised as a "club dive" then you have to play ball. If club members dive together without asking the DO's authority then (1) applies.
3. There is no reason why a "club dive" and a non-BSAC dive cannot take place at the same time from the same beach. Using club equipment/boats etc is however one for the lawyers (which I am not!)
4. Regardless of what agency, training etc etc is involved, all sea users have a responsibility to render whatever aid they can to any other sea user who has difficulties. No lawyer in the world can hold it against you if you try to assist a mariner/diver etc in distress *regardless* of their qualification or lack of same.
Not quite sure where that lot leaves us and it's all IMHO but there you go, keep smiling (and diving!)
Gordon
Lindsey Doyle
09-05-2003, 20:42
I was a D.O and T.O at my branch for 3 years on the trot,
I have been TO for 3 yrs, am new to DO
I was NOT perpared to be phoned up at all hours of the day hearing " is it ok for me to go diving in a few hours time with such and such ".
I have asked my members to let me know during sociable hours, only reasonable i think.
The reason i was not longer to be a DO was that i'm not a ADVANCED DIVER or a Instructor, to which many of the novices dipped out ,
I am qualified to be DO (AD and OWI)
I would say that nowadays 80% of recreational diving is done privately anyway,much more simplier and easier, plus you can get to dive how you want to.
I was asking about TECHNICAL diving as opposed to recreational
I will never tell any DO what diving i'm up to, why should they know ?
If you are diving with a club trainee, for example?
And to Lindseys question,,,, nowadays most divers have more experience & quailifications than most To's and DO's anyway.Divers are out getting expereinces and quail's rather than sat around teaching and perparing lessons.
I am not technically qualified beyond Advanced Nitrox,
but in my club we don't judge differing quals as "better" than another etc. Our tekkie divers don't look down on people who choose to dive more conservatively.
Actually i find that i still gain plenty of extra experience when teaching in OW, and I'm still proud to teach newer members even in the classroom, this is how BSAC branches are supposed to work!
How can a DO tell me not to do a dive if he is not quailified or experienced in RB's or Trimix ?
I think you missed my point, which is how can I leave our tekkie divers to get on with their own thing according to their training agency , (NOT tell them what to do!)without them having to keep non-BSAC dives secret?
Mike Halligan
10-05-2003, 16:05
Hi, Lindsey,
Not being flippant, but if the divers have themselves defined their diving as Technical and not Recreational, have they not themselves drawn the line for you?
IMHO, they are diving beyond the BSAC's safe diving practices on their own recogniscance and could be considered Not Engaged in Branch Diving (my capitals). What this might do to 3rd party liability (i.e. removes BSAC cover) is for them to consider. However, if they and you can live with this, then I fail to see how you are responsible for what they do.
There is a separate issue which you might then care to address. Could you be a responsible person through whom they establish a shore base of information when, where, how many, when due back - for use should something go seriously wrong - if you are willing as a friend rather than DO to keep that for them?
HTH,
Mike
edward haynes
10-05-2003, 19:26
Hi Lindsey
I was asking about TECHNICAL diving as opposed to recreational
:=
IMHO: Why is there a distinction between Technical and Recreational diving? Surely the diving is taking place for recreation. If not then the Diving at Work Regulations (DWR) apply.
As mentioned elsewhere, if Branch equipment is used then in most likelihood it will be a Branch Dive, but check your Branch?s Bye-Laws.
Edward
As mentioned elsewhere, if Branch equipment is used then is should be a Branch Dive, but check your Branch?s Bye-Laws.
Here I do not agree. Surely the branch equipment is for use by the branch members. It doesn't necessarily predispose that it should be limited to official branch dives
Dave
Andy Nye
11-05-2003, 01:52
Andy Nye
11-05-2003, 02:00
Here I do not agree. Surely the branch equipment is for use by the branch members. It doesn't necessarily predispose that it should be limited to official branch dives
I wondered when this would come up as it's been done many
times before.
Your club equipment is owned by the members, but kept/allocated
by the EO. As a club officer he has a responsibilty to ensure
that the DO has been informed or he has the DO's sancion. If he
has not, then the act of giving out the kit can be seen as
condoning a non-BSAC dive.
After all unless members just go along and take what they want
without making any sort of record, the club IS aware that a
dive is going on. The whole argument about non-BSAC dives
and the old chestnut "as long as the DO doesnt know", goes out
the window. As soon as you take kit the EO knows about it,
which means the club knows about it and thus the DO knows about
it.
We operate a simple principal. You want kit, you send the DO
your plans. He emails/texts me. I release the kit.
TerryH
You have your views and I have my views on this. If the club has expressly stated that equipment can only be used by members for branch dives then thats one thing. If not, then there is no reason why a member should not be able to borrow equipment without having to detail what he is going to use it for. The EO will have a record of it being borrowed by a person entitled to borrow it but not necessarily what it is going to be used for and there is no reason why he should have to.
If the EO has details of members who are able to borrow gear, then there is no reason whatsoever why he should have to inform the DO.
Dave
Nigel Hewitt
11-05-2003, 12:02
If the EO has details of members who are able to borrow gear, then there is no reason whatsoever why he should have to inform the DO.
Is there actually a problem with the DO knowing about non-branch diving going on? If the club rules say loaned equipment can only be used for branch diving then that's what you have to do but if not where are the nasty implications in borrowing a tank for a non-branch dive if you brought it back when you promised you would?
nigelH
Not being flippant, but if the divers have themselves defined their diving as Technical and not Recreational, have they not themselves drawn the line for you?
Technical diving is allowed within BSAC rules, we allow Trimix, Rebreathers and accellated deco all of which are generally recognised as "Technical"
Lindsey Doyle
11-05-2003, 13:53
Hi, Lindsey,
Not being flippant, but if the divers have themselves defined their diving as Technical and not Recreational, have they not themselves drawn the line for you?
they haven't, it was ME
IMHO, they are diving beyond the BSAC's safe diving practices on their own recogniscance and could be considered Not Engaged in Branch Diving (my capitals). What this might do to 3rd party liability (i.e. removes BSAC cover) is for them to consider. However, if they and you can live with this, then I fail to see how you are responsible for what they do.
My point is, they (presumably) have their own ins eg DAN, so precisely...they can go off and do their technical recreational diving, not involving me UNLESS it's branch technical (ie, within BSAC guidelines)
There is a separate issue which you might then care to address. Could you be a responsible person through whom they establish a shore base of information when, where, how many, when due back - for use should something go seriously wrong - if you are willing as a friend rather than DO to keep that for them?
Of course, if it doesn't have implcations for me as DO. IMO, tho, they arrange own safety cover adequately!
Andy Nye
11-05-2003, 17:13
Andy. You are: An advanced/senior diver with both a
recreational & commercial background who is "known" enough by
the DO not to give him your dive details. You say you have never
f.... had an "error".
*** Yes, drybag hose wouldn't disconnect from suit when the circlip snapped and wedged the valve open , filling suit fats nad going to suface faster from 25 mts, ( Cured by pulling at neck seal )...... Running out of air at 22 mts after sucking cylinder dry after carrying on the dive with a free flow ( Borrowed DV,but still enjoyed and survived ),,, *** Yip only 2 very minor ones .
You say you are experinced, fine dont doubt it, but all I read
is complacency. Does having shedload of dives and experience
make you immune from becoming a cropper? Too many of the now
deceased top divers might disagree with you.
*** Terry , i'm still here, i dive almost every day of the year, WORKING, with average dive times well over 90 minutes with a 24 hour period, even more some times, *** what i dive in 2-3 weeks is what most do in a year. SO don't knock me,
The fact remains that anybody that claims never to have made
mistakes or f**cked up is just about ready statisticly to have
one. I would be happier if you had said I made mistakes and
learnt by them. That IMO makes you a better diver.
*** COME ON, i share my experiences good or bad and pass on to others what i have learnt / seen during the days bewteen dive club meetings ***
"hopefully my own choices of the way i dive have kept me from
being a statistic"
*** SAME HERE, Yes, when i am RECREATIONAL DIVING ( Within my branch or not ) I do dive on my own,i do what i want,i don't push it to the limit...I ALWAYS SURFACE HAPPY after normally first in last out ........AT work, yes i am govonered by rules and HSE,but always safe. ***
So far, odds are working against you.
*** They have always been in what ever i have done,and BTW i got a 750cc motorcycle a month ago after not riding for the past 18 years,DOES this mean that i'm gonna get killed this week ? may do as i learning to get the front light ( wheelie's ) *** everything in life is dangerous, it's just up to each person how far they wanna bury thewmselves in the big cotton wool blanket .
TerryH /// Andy
P.s I think this thread is now finished , dead and buried, as we both have our own views on this topic,
> Technical diving is allowed within BSAC rules, we allow
> Trimix, Rebreathers and accellated deco all of which are
> generally recognised as "Technical"
That's the trouble with labels; they're so often inappropriate.
IME, "technical" is used in diving in an attempt to inspire awe in a listener; it is rarely used by those actually doing the diving, though.
In many definitions, use of any gas other than air is considered "technical", so yer average 36% 30m no-stopper becomes a "technical" dive whereas the same dive on air (with mandatory deco stops) might not be considered so. I know which one I consider trickier...
Vic.
Please Andy, re-read what you have just written and tell me
that it doesnt smack of complacency.
You are adamant that your weekday dives/underwater time in some
way makes you immune and enables you for your weekend dives.
Why? Is the water different at weekends? As you have proven, is
the kit less likely to fail at weekends? Are you in fact just
as likely to come a cropper repairing the hull of a boat at 6m
than 40m on a pleasure dive?
None of this really matters if we are talking about your
right to kill yourself, but in many of your replies you refer
to your club and your actions in it. Tell me honestly how you
can expect younger club members to follow basic safety rules
when you obviously feel that you are above them?
"*** They have always been in what ever i have done,and BTW i
got a 750cc motorcycle a month ago after not riding for the
past 18 years,DOES this mean that i'm gonna get killed this
week ? may do as i learning to get the front light (
wheelie's ) ***"
My Brother-in-law died on a motorcycle, my sister died a week
later of a heart attack brought on by the severe stress. I
genuinely hope that you dont put your family through what
we went through.
TerryH
> BTW i got a 750cc motorcycle a month ago after not riding for
> the past 18 years,DOES this mean that i'm gonna get killed
> this week ?
BABs are heavily over-represented in the statistics. Go careful...
> may do as i learning to get the front light
Depends on the bike. If you're on a short-wheelbase sprots bike, you could be in for more excitement than you've bargained on. If you're on a MOTR cruiser, a 750 probably isn't grunty enough to get you into too much aggro on the take-off - just make sure your fork seals survive the landing (hint: they won't for long unless you've got lots of road to play with...)
> everything in life is dangerous, it's just up to each person
> how far they wanna bury thewmselves in the big cotton wool
> blanket .
Indeed - but it is always worth looking at *why* you consider yourself to be significantly more able than average in a particular area. If you can't come up with a story *you* believe, then there's a strong probability you're deluding yourself.
Vic.
Is there actually a problem with the DO knowing about non-branch diving going on? If the club rules say loaned equipment can only be used for branch diving then that's what you have to do but if not where are the nasty implications in borrowing a tank for a non-branch dive if you brought it back when you promised you would?
Your DO may be aware that a dive is going on outside of the
club, but unless it is part of the clubs definition of a club
dive, then he can hardly stop individuals doing there own thing.
But what happens when you want to borrow a cylinder? How can the
club through the Equipment officer NOT know about the dive?
With or without paperwork as soon as the cylinder is lent, the
club is now fully aware that a dive is planned.
You can as DO or a club officer argue that the dive went ahead
outside of the club without your knowledge, but you cannot do
the same when kit is lent, because you DO know about it.
Nothing is stopping anybody taking out kit, but if you looking
for liablity then, better the individual than the club officers.
Bottom line is that if you are lending kit then why wouldnt you
get the DO's approval? Awswer. You must be diving outside of
BSAC regs or your own skill level and know you wouldnt get it!
Once you are prepared to flout the DO then you might as well go
the whole hog and lie to protect the club.
or
Dive plan approved by DO for Vivian, actual dive Dorothea.
Club in the clear and it's all down to the individual for
changing the plan without the DO's knowledge.
TerryH
Bottom line is that if you are lending kit then why wouldnt you
get the DO's approval? Awswer. You must be diving outside of
BSAC regs or your own skill level and know you wouldnt get it!
Totally false. A club dive might well have to be open to all members to go for example whereas this could be a case of 2 people just going for a dive. Also, privately they don't have any overheads of keeping records of the dive etc that might otherwise apply. It doesn't imply that they are going to be doing something outside of recommendations
Dave
Totally false. A club dive might well have to be open to all members to go for example whereas this could be a case of 2 people just going for a dive. Also, privately they don't have any overheads of keeping records of the dive etc that might otherwise apply. It doesn't imply that they are going to be doing something outside of recommendations
Dave
Sorry Dave do you want to read the original post again as your
reply is a little out of context.
This is diving using borrowed club equipment, not a private
dive with absolutely no club involvement.
Two entirely different points.
TerryH
:=
:=Totally false. A club dive might well have to be open to all members to go for example whereas this could be a case of 2 people just going for a dive. Also, privately they don't have any overheads of keeping records of the dive etc that might otherwise apply. It doesn't imply that they are going to be doing something outside of recommendations
:=
:=Dave
Sorry Dave do you want to read the original post again as your
reply is a little out of context.
This is diving using borrowed club equipment, not a private
dive with absolutely no club involvement.
Two entirely different points.
No,
You stated
"Bottom line is that if you are lending kit then why wouldnt you get the DO's approval? Awswer. You must be diving outside of BSAC regs or your own skill level and know you wouldnt get it!"
You might not want to make it an official branch dive since there would be administrative overhead which you might have no interest in doing , or there could be rules which ensure that all branch dives are open to all members , which you again have no interest in etc.
Dave
edward haynes
14-05-2003, 21:13
All
Some clarification behind this comment of mine.
As mentioned elsewhere, if Branch equipment is used then in most likelihood it will be a Branch Dive, but check your Branch?s Bye-Laws.
It could be in a Branch's Bye-Laws that members may borrow / hire kit when doing 'private' dives i.e. those not organised by the Branch - a shuttle out of Plymouth or Oban for example.
These are unlikely to be 'Branch Dives', but I'm interested to see your comments.
Edward
It could be in a Branch's Bye-Laws that members may borrow / hire kit when doing 'private' dives i.e. those not organised by the Branch - a shuttle out of Plymouth or Oban for example.
These are unlikely to be 'Branch Dives', but I'm interested to see your comments.
Under BSAC regs (and therefore branch regs) we have to inform
the DO of branch dives, right?
If the DO doesnt know about it (as per a private dive) he
cannot be held liable in any way. Ater all you cant be
responsible if you dont know it's happening.
However the assumption that you can have a private dive and use
club kit is flawed, simply because the very action of taking the
equipment informs the club.
How can you now as DO, argue that you knew nothing of this dive
when a fellow branch officer (the EO) gave or logged out the
kit for it?
IMO you cant. Hence using club kit on any dive = club dive.
TerryH
simply because the very action of taking the
equipment informs the club.
agreed
IMO you cant. Hence using club kit on any dive = club dive.
Don't follow your logic. Why does the DO knowing about it make it a club dive?
My DO knew I was going to dive in NZ earlier in the year because we discussed it in the pub. I'm chairman and my wife is TO so 3 members of the committee at least knew about it. Was it a club dive? No it was me and my wife going for a dip on holiday. I think it's a big jump from club knowledge to club dive.
Pete
Don't follow your logic. Why does the DO knowing about it make it a club dive?
Because lending club kit via the EO is an "official" act.
He is after all a club officer apointed by the committee and
bound by BSAC rules.
If he is aware of the dive (by handing out kit), then the club
is now officially aware of the dive.
Your pub conversation was just that. No physical evidence of
you going on the trip and no real need for DO sancion.
The DO could deny all knowledge. Something that the EO could
not if you borrowed kit.
TerryH
:=Don't follow your logic. Why does the DO knowing about it make it a club dive?
Because lending club kit via the EO is an "official" act.
He is after all a club officer apointed by the committee and
bound by BSAC rules.
If he is aware of the dive (by handing out kit), then the club
is now officially aware of the dive.
Your pub conversation was just that. No physical evidence of
you going on the trip and no real need for DO sancion.
The DO could deny all knowledge. Something that the EO could
not if you borrowed kit.
Terry you have not answered the question "Why does the DO knowing about it make it a club dive?" That's what I don't understand
Pete
If he is aware of the dive (by handing out kit), then the club
is now officially aware of the dive.
Knowing about it does not make it a club dive. A DO has to both know about AND approve of the dive before it can be a club dive. His just knowing about it does not make it a club dive.
Dave
Knowing about it does not make it a club dive. A DO has to both know about AND approve of the dive before it can be a club dive. His just knowing about it does not make it a club dive.
Agreed, just knowing about it doesnt make it a club dive, but
when club kit is involved then you cannot argue that you didnt
know about it. After all one of the club officers gave and
logged out the kit.
Once you accept the principle of lending club kit = officially
informing the club, then the DO's approval must be part of that
plan.
TerryH
> Once you accept the principle of lending club kit = officially
> informing the club
But I don't accept that principle.
"Can I borrow a couple of cylinders" is a request for kit, and the club is likely to lend them to me.
I haven't said anything about whether they're for an Argox dive on the Lusitania, or for powering my paint sprayer. The club knows only of my desire for kit, not of my intentions.
Vic.
> Your pub conversation was just that. No physical evidence of
> you going on the trip ...
>
> The DO could deny all knowledge. Something that the EO could
> not if you borrowed kit.
So it only becomes a Branch Dive if the officers can't lie their way out of it?
In both situations, Club Officers know about the dive(s) in question. If they are truthful, then there is no difference whatsoever in their state of knowledge. So the only difference can be whether or not approval has been sought and attained; in one case, it clearly has not been sought. *That's* the difference.
Unless, of course, you consider bare-faced lying to be an important part of being a Club Officer...
Vic.
In both situations, Club Officers know about the dive(s) in question. If they are truthful, then there is no difference whatsoever in their state of knowledge. So the only difference can be whether or not approval has been sought and attained; in one case, it clearly has not been sought. *That's* the difference.
Err yes, and your point is?
The "difference" is whether such knowledge has become official
or not.
Unless, of course, you consider bare-faced lying to be an important part of being a Club Officer...
How can you keep a straight face!!!!!
After all you ALWAYS dive your yellow box within the BSAC
guidelines. Well, you do dont you?????????
Mind you if I was the NDO I wouldnt dream of flouting BSAC
rules on RB's would I????????????
TerryH
> Err yes, and your point is?
My point is that your attempts to dictate what is and is not a branch dive bear no relationship to reality.
A Branch Dive is one performed with the knowledge *AND APPROVAL* of the DO. It's not jsut knowledge, so however much you witter on about whether or not he could deny it, if the DO has not sanctioned a given dive as a Branch Dive, then it's not a Branch Dive. The equipment used on the dive is of no consequence.
> The "difference" is whether such knowledge has become official
> or not.
Rubbish. Knowledge is knowledge. I might not officially know that my mate's company is about to go down the toilet because he only told me about it in the pub, not the boardroom, but if I dump all my shares, it's still classed as insider trading. "Official" bears no weight whatsoever.
>> Unless, of course, you consider bare-faced lying to be an
>> important part of being a Club Officer...
>
> How can you keep a straight face!!!!!
Not easy. The grimace tends to occur when confronted by such clearly flawed logic; nevertheless, I will persevere.
> After all you ALWAYS dive your yellow box within the BSAC
> guidelines. Well, you do dont you?????????
I had to leave BSAC so as not to put myself outside the BSAC guidelines. I only rejoined once the guidelines had been modified to enable relatively safe diving.
If you're going on the "practice what you preach" line, I'm afraid you've picked the wrong target; I do indeed stick to guidelines.
> Mind you if I was the NDO I wouldnt dream of flouting BSAC
> rules on RB's would I????????????
Are you implying that I am the NDO, or that I'm in some way responsible for the NDO's actions? I cannot see how the above comment has any bearing on my actions unless one or other is the case.
Vic.
:=Knowing about it does not make it a club dive. A DO has to both know about AND approve of the dive before it can be a club dive. His just knowing about it does not make it a club dive.
Agreed, just knowing about it doesnt make it a club dive, but
when club kit is involved then you cannot argue that you didnt
know about it. After all one of the club officers gave and
logged out the kit.
Nobody is argueing that point
Once you accept the principle of lending club kit = officially
informing the club, then the DO's approval must be part of that
plan.
Why?
You seem to be making a huge leap from Knowledge of a dive to it being a branch dive.
So lets assume we have a sworn affidavit that I'm going diving, the DO has given to a local JP another sworn affidavit that he knows about the dive. Everyone that matters knows about the dive and we can all prove that they all know about the dive.
So for the third time of asking "Why does the DO knowing about it make it a club dive?"
P
Once you accept the principle of lending club kit = officially
informing the club, then the DO's approval must be part of that
plan.
No it doesn't.
The fact that he has been informed that someone is going diving does not imply any form of approval of the activity.
Dave
Mike Halligan
17-05-2003, 20:14
Once you accept the principle of lending club kit = officially
informing the club, then the DO's approval must be part of that
plan.
Sorry, Terry, I cannot agree. I borrow kit from my Branch on occasion, for one of many purposes which may or may not include a dive - on my part or someone else's. Such a dive may or may not fall within the ambit of my DO, but the mere fact that I borrowed kit is not relevant to that.
At the same time, I cannot agree fully with Dave - though I can see more clearly where he's coming from. My DO knew I was wreck diving in January, and that I was doing a nitrox course whilst there. Did that make my qualifying (PADI) dives into (BSAC) Branch Dives? I think not.
Would my use of a Branch wetsuit have changed that one iota? Again, I think not.
I dived the same location on the RDP this year and BSAC 88 last, but this did not change the status of my diving - it was all privateer diving with current BSAC qualification applying BSAC SDP.
What's this with "Official", by the way? I'd rather not go dragging Government into this. ;-)
Mike
At the same time, I cannot agree fully with Dave - though I can see more clearly where he's coming from. My DO knew I was wreck diving in January, and that I was doing a nitrox course whilst there. Did that make my qualifying (PADI) dives into (BSAC) Branch Dives? I think not.
Would my use of a Branch wetsuit have changed that one iota? Again, I think not.
I dived the same location on the RDP this year and BSAC 88 last, but this did not change the status of my diving - it was all privateer diving with current BSAC qualification applying BSAC SDP.
Which part of what I have said do you not agree with? What you have detailed fits exactly in with what I was saying in that the act of borrowing kit does not make it a club dive not does just the DO's knowledge of a dive occurring make it a club dive.
Dave
Mike Rowley
18-05-2003, 12:48
You are not allowed to teach a comercial course in the UK unless it has been sanctioned by HSE, that's why people have been talking about GUE courses for ages but they have only just started doing them.
Completely wrong! HSE do not approve or sanction any courses or training agencies. They approve the instructor. HSE are only concerned with the safety of the person at work and the systen he or she uses to ensure continued safety to him/herself and the public during the working process through risk assessment. They do not approve or sanction course content as being suitable for the trainees.
Mike Rowley.
Mike Rowley
18-05-2003, 12:58
Personally I would rather follow my training from a technical agency than the recommendations of a recreational agency.
And you are completely at liberty to do so. Just do your diving under the banner of the technical training agency of your choice. BSAC will not complain or attempt to sensor you, it is happy for you to do your own thing as long as it is not responsible for you.
Mike Rowley
Lindsey Doyle
18-05-2003, 13:20
What's this with "Official", by the way? I'd rather not go dragging Government into this. ;-)
I started this thread & called it "Official branch dives" because I got the term from the BOH section 4.5.2 which defines it as one where the DO both knows of, & approves it.
So I'm happy for my members to dive as per their technical agency, no problem if I know about it, no need to approve it (couldn't anyway), no need for there to be secrets kept from me as DO, just so I don't "know" about things.
If any branch wants to add to that definition (like TerryH's)to say using club kit makes it a branch dive, fine, that's up to them, it's still not a BSAC definition.Just means DO has to be asked to approve it too.
> Personally I would rather follow my training from a technical agency than the recommendations of a recreational agency.
And you are completely at liberty to do so. Just do your diving under the banner of the technical training agency of your choice. BSAC will not complain or attempt to sensor you, it is happy for you to do your own thing as long as it is not responsible for you.
This is what I am/will be doing, with 3rd party insurance from elsewhere. What I probably will not be doing later this year is renewing my BSAC membership as most of my diving 'for me' in the coming year will be with friends outside my BSAC branch. I don't see the point in paying UKP 38 to get a second 3rd party insurance (I don't really read the mag & wouldn't miss it), especially as the only extra it would give me would be the ability to instruct (which I do quite happily, but wouldn't pay to do).
As an aside does anyone know what happens if someone sues you and you have multiple 3rd party insurance policies? Are all the companies liable? If not how is it decided which one is?
Regards,
Rowan
As an aside does anyone know what happens if someone sues you and you have multiple 3rd party insurance policies? Are all the companies liable? If not how is it decided which one is?
Normally it is split in relation to the cover provided. So if company A provides ?2m cover and company B provides ?1m cover and you get sued and loose for ?3k, A pays 2 and B pays 1. Normally company B will hand over the negotiating of the settlement to A as well to make things simpler and therefore cheaper.
HTH
Pete
iainmsmith
19-05-2003, 10:39
:= > Personally I would rather follow my training from a technical agency than the recommendations of a recreational agency.
:=
:=And you are completely at liberty to do so. Just do your diving under the banner of the technical training agency of your choice. BSAC will not complain or attempt to sensor you, it is happy for you to do your own thing as long as it is not responsible for you.
This is what I am/will be doing, with 3rd party insurance from elsewhere. What I probably will not be doing later this year is renewing my BSAC membership
So true. The only reason I have continued as a BSAC member for the last couple of years is to instruct within the Branch. As I'm probably going to me moving house in the next 12 months or so, I'm not going to be of any use to the Branch anyway and as I'm now working roughly 1 in 3 weekends, I've got less and less time to dive. What diving I can do, I _have_ to do for me, in order to keep my high-end skills up.
Of course, if BSAC were going to let me dive according to my training, rather than assuming I'm incompetent and that my instructor lied when he said that I could hold stops, I might be persuaded to remain within the fold so that I could occasionally help out Branches where ever I end up. Instead, BSAC will lose the use of an AD/OWI with a stack of SDC instructor tickets and loses another ?38/year, not to mention the loss of goodwill for forcing me out.
And we wonder why the membership is dropping...
Iain
Mike Halligan
19-05-2003, 13:00
Which part of what I have said do you not agree with? What you have detailed fits exactly in with what I was saying in that the act of borrowing kit does not make it a club dive not does just the DO's knowledge of a dive occurring make it a club dive.
Sorry, Dave, you're right. I misconstrued an earlier post of yours, around 11th May. We do agreed entirely, to my great relief.
Mike
Some points spring to mind after reading this interesting thread:
1. If you dive outside of BSAC, then qed you are not covered by their insurance.
2. Like it or not if you go on a dive which is organised as a "club dive" then you have to play ball. If club members dive together without asking the DO's authority then (1) applies.
The implication is that a BSAC direct member has a free hand to go diving when they want whilst a branch member is bound to the wishes of their DO. Which either leaves branch members with less effective insurance or BSAC direct members without insurance. I really do not think that is the case. If it is the case I would appreciate clarification from someone in authority and I will go off and talk to Dive Master.
AFAIC this whole insurance thing needs clearing up. The threat of being uninsured is constantly being touted by the anally retentive to cajole perfectly safe divers into seeing things 'their' way. If BSAC are offering 3rd party liability insurance it needs to fit the modern divers needs and it is completely unacceptable to leave several thousand divers underinsured without telling them.
I really do not want to have to ask if someone is a BSAC member with their DOs permission before accidently dropping my cylinder on their foot!
Regards
Matt
edward haynes
20-05-2003, 23:33
Matt
In your situation it don't matter one iota it the individual has insurance or not. It's you that would have to defend a damages claim. The BSAC insurance is not like holiday insurance it doesn't pay out if you are injured, payment is only to the other party(ies).
Edward
I really do not want to have to ask if someone is a BSAC member with their DOs permission before accidently dropping my cylinder on their foot!
Regards
Matt
Sorry Edward, I understand 3rd party insurance just made my point badly.
I should have said;
I don't want my victim to have to ask if I have the DO's permission before I drop my cylinder on their foot!
However the point remains. BSAC direct members who are not members of a branch but are insured even though they dive without a DO's express permission. Yet it is claimed that the situation is different for branch members. Surely that is not the case?
Regards
Matt
Andrew Goldby
30-07-2003, 12:43
Personally I would rather follow my training from a technical agency than the recommendations of a recreational agency.
And you are completely at liberty to do so. Just do your diving under the banner of the technical training agency of your choice. BSAC will not complain or attempt to sensor you, it is happy for you to do your own thing as long as it is not responsible for you.
Mike Rowley
Thanks for this Mike
This is a long running debate that some of our branches have been having with us.
The main question that comes up time and time again is:
If a member choses to dive outside BSACs recommendations but within their own technical qualifications can they do this from the Club's boat?
From your reply above I would deduce that the main issue is ensuring that they know that BSAC are not responsible for them.
Would a letter from their DO stating that they can dive on club dives outside BSACs recommendations as long as:
a) they stay within their technical certification
b) they have appropriate 3rd party insurance
c) they realise that neither the DO nor BSAC can assume any responsibility for them
Can you please confirm?
Cheers
Andy
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