Stupid Security [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

Steve Greenham

11-04-2003, 14:31

Adrian Kelland

11-04-2003, 15:47

Well congratulations to BSAC, we've been nominated for an international award. Yes, we are right up there with the officious airline security guard who made a nursing mother drink three bottles of her own breast milk before she was allowed to board a plane.

I hate to say I told you so but ... I did :-)

Steve

Steve

What did you tell us?

You are a little out of date. While the awards were made in the last few days, the incident reported is at least a couple of years old. If you looked at your own form in the last 2 years, the paragraph concerned is no longer there. Also it was not about a security check for no reason, but to check criminal records for those who may wish to get access to children.

As to the medical bit. He is just plain wrong. Again you just have to read the medical form. No one at BSAC would have to see anything, but a Medical Referee. Who would be a doctor.

The whole nomination is a poorly written diatribe that is likely to do the rounds for some time. People tend to view the web as a source of factual, up to information. It often is not.
It may be that the person was poorly advised as to the purpose of the forms. It is a shame the person did not have the curtesy to sign the nomination, perhaps something to hide :-|

Adrian

Steve Greenham

11-04-2003, 19:36

What did you tell us?

Probably, as you say, a few years ago now but I had a very long discussion with Ali Boler in these here forums about the inappropriateness of mass-checking the register for all members and requiring us to make statements about convictions or lack of them.

You are a little out of date. While the awards were made in the last few days, the incident reported is at least a couple of years old. If you looked at your own form in the last 2 years, the paragraph concerned is no longer there.

Yes, but mud sticks. The person reporting it doesn't know that things have changed because he formed his impression and went elsewhere, unlikely to return. If he was sufficiently upset about it two years later to fill in a nomination form, just imagine how many people he's told over a beer in the interim.

Also it was not about a security check for no reason, but to check criminal records for those who may wish to get access to children.

No. It was ill-considered, inappropriate and un-proportionate knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate event in one club. At the time many people said they would have no problem with being actively screened as instructors or if they were working with children, but BSAC insisted that everyone had to sign a declaration even if their branch was exclusively adult.

This is precisely what the awards are about. If you read the Press Release for the awards you will see they say "Security has become the smokescreen for incompetent and robotic managers the world over". That about sums it up.

The whole nomination is a poorly written diatribe

Well, if you can't dispute the premise why not pick on the grammar? :-)

that is likely to do the rounds for some time.

Exactly. BSAC shot themselves in the foot with this. Although the blood may have gone, people will continue to comment on the scar. The moral is if you do something stupid the impact may persist even after you've corrected your mistake.

In any case, was it a change of heart or just the realisation that the police were never likely to go along with mass screening every member? RIPA came along around that time so the policy would have been very difficult to defend.

People tend to view the web as a source of factual, up to information. It often is not.

Indeed. But the nomination was sufficiently factual be credible.

It may be that the person was poorly advised as to the purpose of the forms.

Probably. Council at the time were making enough of a hash of it, no reason why a branch officer would be any better.

It is a shame the person did not have the curtesy to sign the nomination, perhaps something to hide :-|

If you check you will see none of the quotes are attributed. That doesn't mean the nomination wasn't signed but does mean the publishers have a reasonable grasp of privacy.

Steve

John Williams

13-04-2003, 17:31

Yes, but mud sticks. The person reporting it doesn't know that things have changed because he formed his impression and went elsewhere, unlikely to return. If he was sufficiently upset about it two years later to fill in a nomination form, just imagine how many people he's told over a beer in the interim.

And just how many people might have been fooled by your ill-advised, knee-jerk post into thinking that the nomination was for something that was still true?

:=that is likely to do the rounds for some time.

Exactly. BSAC shot themselves in the foot with this. Although the blood may have gone, people will continue to comment on the scar. The moral is if you do something stupid the impact may persist even after you've corrected your mistake.

And you have shot yourself in the foot by attempting to score points by bringing this out-of-date silliness back into the public domain without highlighting it for what it is...wrong!

:= People tend to view the web as a source of factual, up to information. It often is not.

Indeed. But the nomination was sufficiently factual be credible.

Nope...the nomination was at least two years out-of-date. Out-of-date and incorrect. Therefore it had absolutely zero crdibility (a situation that you might find rubbing off onto you after you have made this post)

You nearly got away with a cheap-shot Steve...but not quite!

Safe Diving

John

Steve Greenham

14-04-2003, 10:45

And just how many people might have been fooled by your ill-advised, knee-jerk post into thinking that the nomination was for something that was still true?

None - because this forum is somewhere BSAC could immediately respond to set the record straight. Meanwhile, the number of copies circulating by email (I've had two so far) will not have been refuted. The damage is being done out in the real world, not in BSACs sycophantic and self congratulatory fora.

As it happens I originally went to the bsac.org site to look up email addresses to tell you by email but there wasn't a (readily available) list of contacts.

And you have shot yourself in the foot by attempting to score points by bringing this out-of-date silliness back into the public domain without highlighting it for what it is...wrong!

Yes, but I don't greatly care anyway because I have no BSAC axe to grind. If BSAC were to fold tomorrow then I would just carry on diving using certifications from other agencies. As I've said a few times before a dive club is like a pub; one chooses a local on the basis of the regulars and possibly the landlord and by the ambience and events. One does not choose on the basis of the brewery. Although BSAC make great play of being the world's largest dive club, its an issue that is irrelevant to 95% of its members as evidenced by their indifference to AGMs, voting and most other things organised on a national basis.

Nope...the nomination was at least two years out-of-date. Out-of-date and incorrect. Therefore it had absolutely zero crdibility

What rubbish! The information was pertinent when the person formed his opinion and he has evidently received no follow up from BSAC to tell him that the policy has changed. I believe it was Tom Peters who said "Perception is everything". This guy's perception caused him to

1) Give up on learning with BSAC
2) Tell everyone why each time the subject crops up
3) Nominate BSAC for a stupid security award
4) So, indirectly, generate a lot of negative publicity.

(a situation that you might find rubbing off onto you after you have made this post)

You nearly got away with a cheap-shot Steve...but not quite!

Your response indicates that BSAC are still far more willing to shoot the messanger than read the message. Nothing has changed there.

Also from Tom Peters: "If no one is ****ed-off with you then you are dead but just haven't figured it out yet."

John Williams

14-04-2003, 13:38

Your response indicates that BSAC are still far more willing to shoot the messanger than read the message. Nothing has changed there.

Wrong again Steve.
I'd have welcomed your post if you had highlighted the nomination as incorrect and sought to highlight the innapropriate damage that it might have been doing to the BSAC.
You did not...you chose to use the BSAC forum to perpetuate an inaccurate, out-of-date report based on uninformed hearsay.

Also - why do you credit me as weilding the opinion of the BSAC? I'm just a member - same as 40,000 others (though perhaps a little more informed on this particular issue than most).

I was once told
"If you aint got nothing positive to say then shut up!"

If you make a positive, constructive contribution I'll support you every step of the way...but what you did was in pretty poor taste.

Also from Tom Peters: "If no one is ****ed-off with you then you are dead but just haven't figured it out yet."

I'll be happy to confirm that you're not dead!!!

John

Andy Wade

14-04-2003, 18:50

(Snipped)

Yes, but I don't greatly care anyway because I have no BSAC axe to grind. If BSAC were to fold tomorrow then I would just carry on diving using certifications from other agencies. As I've said a few times before a dive club is like a pub; one chooses a local on the basis of the regulars and possibly the landlord and by the ambience and events. One does not choose on the basis of the brewery.

Oh yes they do Steve!
Your analogy, whilst close, doesn't work 100%.
I wouldn't be seen dead in a Tetley's pub. That decision is definitely based on the basis of the brewery.
And I'm not alone in that.

webmaster

15-04-2003, 08:27

As it happens I originally went to the bsac.org site to look up email addresses to tell you by email but there wasn't a (readily available) list of contacts.

Steve,
It's not that hard to find - its the first item in the listings, top left of screen, or did you expect to find everybody's email address there?
Alternatively, go to John's (or anybody's) message and put the cursor on their name in the "Posted by" line and you will see their address in the task bar.

Mike

John Williams

15-04-2003, 13:47

It's not that hard to find - its the first item in the listings, top left of screen, or did you expect to find everybody's email address there?
Alternatively, go to John's (or anybody's) message and put the cursor on their name in the "Posted by" line and you will see their address in the task bar.

Mike

Alternatively - if you wish to bring something to the attention of anyone who volunteers within the BSAC organisation you can use the simple format of

<a href="mailto:firstname.lastname@bsac.com">firstname.lastname@bsac.com</a>

So - to get to me (as an Area Coach)you can write to

<a href="mailto:john.williams@bsac.com">john.williams@bsac.com</a>

You can also write to any volunteer via their position within the BSAC

For example I am also the BSAC Welfare Officer so you may write to me at

<a href="mailto:welfare@bsac.com">welfare@bsac.com</a>

To contact someone at BSAC HQ write to them at either their function

e.g. <a href="mailto:membership@bsac.com">membership@bsac.com</a> to contact the membership services team.

If you want to contact an individual at HQ try using the format:

<a href="mailto:firstname@bsac.com">firstname@bsac.com</a>

For example you may write to Jim Watson on <a href="mailto:jimw@bsac.com">jimw@bsac.com</a>

I trust that this will help you, or anyone who wishes, to contact someone within the BSAC "organisation".

Everyone who does volunteer/work for the BSAC membership is always very pleased to hear from them.

All the best

John

Steve Greenham

15-04-2003, 19:40

Oh yes they do Steve!
Your analogy, whilst close, doesn't work 100%.
I wouldn't be seen dead in a Tetley's pub. That decision is definitely based on the basis of the brewery.
And I'm not alone in that.

Unfortunately, the analogy may work only too well. You don't care which brewery it is providing it isn't Tetley's = you don't care which dive club it is providing it isn't BSAC.

That's precisely the negative perception I was trying to highlight and very different from saying you will only drink in "Firkin" pubs (to choose a chain with a strong brand image).

People will tend to avoid specific brands because of a bad experience. Far more than will actively seek out a brand because of a good experience.

Mike Halligan

15-04-2003, 20:21

Andy Wade

16-04-2003, 00:26

There was once a theorem in PR that will have been updated. However, 25 years ago, it stated that -

A dissatisfied customer will either complain to you or tell around 8 people about their negative experience, never darken your door but do little more harm.

A complainant who is satisfied by their complaint being welcomed, dealt with and resolved will tell around 80 people how wonderful you are, return to patronise your business again and readily offer you further useful feedback.

A complainant who is further dissatisfied by obstructive, dismissive or disinterested treatment will tell nearer 30 people, but embellish the tale, never, ever forget and take every opportunity to blackguard you and your product.

Beware the silent but deadly effect of bad experiences. I can endorse each of the three options and their outcomes from personal experience.

What's wrong with Leeds-brewed Tetley, anyway?

It is very variable quality beer.

I heard a tale of a brewer from Tetleys who said that it was difficult to maintain the standard flavour because of problems with water and varying quality of the products used for the brewing process. Therefore sometimes the brew just doesn't turn out right every time.
When asked what they did with the brews that didn't turn out quite right, the answer she gave was that they simply barrelled it up and sent it out to the pubs.
I guess if they are getting away with it, they they see it as being OK to sell c**p to their customers.
Nuff said?

If they can't exercise some kind of quality control for their beer, then I don't see why I should give them my custom.

Plus Tetleys are part of a giant brewing consortium that buys out small local breweries and closes them down to get rid of the competition.
If they had their way we'd all be drinking exactly the same overpriced keg beers that were prevalent not so long ago.
Beer is still way overpriced and the industry deliberately short measures (IIRC) by around 10 million pints volume every year.
Every time you get a head on a pint in an unlined glass, they are short measuring. If it were done the same with spirits, there would be a weights and measures issue.

Long live CAMRA!
;-)

Sorry, am I preaching to the converted?

Andy Wade

16-04-2003, 00:31

:=Oh yes they do Steve!
:=Your analogy, whilst close, doesn't work 100%.
:=I wouldn't be seen dead in a Tetley's pub. That decision is definitely based on the basis of the brewery.
:=And I'm not alone in that.

Unfortunately, the analogy may work only too well. You don't care which brewery it is providing it isn't Tetley's = you don't care which dive club it is providing it isn't BSAC.

That's precisely the negative perception I was trying to highlight and very different from saying you will only drink in "Firkin" pubs (to choose a chain with a strong brand image).

People will tend to avoid specific brands because of a bad experience. Far more than will actively seek out a brand because of a good experience.

Hmmm, you're right, but I also specifically go to pubs run by breweries such as 'Taylors' precisely because I like their beers.

I should also mention that I do like to use pubs with a non-denominational aspect, that serve a large range of guest beers from different breweries.
A bit like 'UKRS' really, and 'Dive Instruct' too.

Ah who cares, lets talk more about BEER eh?
MMmmmMMMMmmmm.......
;-)

Steve Walker

16-04-2003, 11:52

Ah who cares, lets talk more about BEER eh?
MMmmmMMMMmmmm.......
;-)
That's a sound idea, bit more interesting than some recent topics, I'll start: Speckled Hen, now that'a beer-and-a-half :) And it apparently inspired the MG logo.

Did you know that beer protects you from aluminium poisining in the water supply, not a lot of people know that...;)
Cheers
Steve

Mike Halligan

16-04-2003, 19:23

:=What's wrong with Leeds-brewed Tetley, anyway?
:=
It is very variable quality beer.

Strange, I find it consistently excellent over here in Lancashire, and the same in a rather good backstreet local in central London.

Plus Tetleys are part of a giant brewing consortium that buys out small local breweries and closes them down to get rid of the competition.

And I recall campaigning agin them some 30 years ago. Where would we be now without ...................
Long live CAMRA!
;-)

Subscribe to that any day

Andy Wade

17-04-2003, 08:01

:=Ah who cares, lets talk more about BEER eh?
:=MMmmmMMMMmmmm.......
:=;-)
That's a sound idea, bit more interesting than some recent topics, I'll start: Speckled Hen, now that'a beer-and-a-half
And it apparently inspired the MG logo.

According to their website it was brewed to celebrate 50 years of the MG car factory, so maybe it was the other way around? There's a write up about it here, and about the origin of "owld speckled 'un" too:

<a href="http://www.oldspeckledhen.co.uk/did_you_know.htm" >http://www.oldspeckledhen.co.uk/did_you_know.htm</a>

Did you know that beer protects you from aluminium poisining in the water supply, not a lot of people know that...;)

Gosh, I didn't know that!

"Sorry dear, I've had to have more beer because I'm worried about aluminium poisoning......"

Well, it's worth a try.

Taylors Golden Best.
MmmmMMMmmmm.

Can anybody recommend good beers in pubs near to where they go diving?
We could write a divers guide to good pubs and dive sites.....

Andy Wade

17-04-2003, 08:13

:=:=What's wrong with Leeds-brewed Tetley, anyway?
:=:=
:=It is very variable quality beer.
:=
Strange, I find it consistently excellent over here in Lancashire, and the same in a rather good backstreet local in central London.

Well it's pretty unpopular here amongst people I know. Although a Landlord I know (The Shipley Pride pub) who serves it as a regular beer says it is still selling pretty well, but it's nothing like the Taylors Landlord he has as his other regular beer. I guess old habits die hard.
He does really look after his ale though, and if I was to have Tetleys, then it would be at his pub.

:=Plus Tetleys are part of a giant brewing consortium that buys out small local breweries and closes them down to get rid of the competition.
:=
And I recall campaigning agin them some 30 years ago. Where would we be now without ...................
:=Long live CAMRA!
:=;-)
:=
Subscribe to that any day

Indeed.

Trevor M

17-04-2003, 09:51

Can anybody recommend good beers in pubs near to where they go diving?
We could write a divers guide to good pubs and dive sites.....

When we go down to Cornwall for our training trip to Porthkerris, Sharp's Doom Bar is always the most popular beer - fantastic stuff.

T

Andy Wade

17-04-2003, 21:36

:=Can anybody recommend good beers in pubs near to where they go diving?
:=We could write a divers guide to good pubs and dive sites.....

When we go down to Cornwall for our training trip to Porthkerris, Sharp's Doom Bar is always the most popular beer - fantastic stuff.

Ah yes, Sharps beers....

Doom Bar bitter.
4.0%
Rich Golden Brown Bitter.
A rich golden brown beer. Dry malt and hops in the mouth with a hint of barley.
The malty finish becomes dry and hoppy.
It is named after the infamous sand bar located in North Cornwall's Camel Estuary, the scene of many a nautical mishap.

<a href="http://www.siba-southwest.co.uk/breweries/sharps/" >http://www.siba-southwest.co.uk/breweries/sharps/</a>

It sounds great, I'll add it to my list of desirable beers.
Marvellous stuff.
Even its name has origins compatible with diving!
Cheers.

Steve Walker

20-04-2003, 12:57

According to their website it was brewed to celebrate 50 years of the MG car factory, so maybe it was the other way around? There's a write up about it here, and about the origin of "owld speckled 'un" too:

http://www.oldspeckledhen.co.uk/did_you_know.htm

I stand corrected, I was probably told that whilst under the influence of a couple of these fine beers.
Anyone tried any products from the north-east brewery "Mordue"? they make some very fine ales (but don't half make you feel rough the next day, groan....)