Another lost membership [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

John Williams

06-04-2003, 16:25

Following on from Keith's suggestion to take "argy-bargy" off-line, and assuming that we're all aware of the purported "declining membership" issue, I thought I'd post this, just for information purposes of course.

A diver I know, and who has been an active contributer here, has allowed his BSAC membership to lapse. One of the reasons he stated was to do with some of the attitudes displayed on these boards. Perhaps something worth a little consideration for future debates?
Regards

Steve,

perhaps you could point out to your mate that there are very few members of the BSAC who actually post here...and those that do are certainly not representative of the total membership (I include myself).

We are the passionate ones. We are the ones with far too much time on our hands. We are those of strong opinion and who are not afraid to voice it LOUDLY!

What goes on inside these fora does not reflect the BSAC...but it does highlight some of the "perceived" problems with the BSAC. Anyone looking in would think it a "whinge-board" or a "muck-slinging board".

perhaps the minority should consider their impact upon the majority.

However those looking in should also see that they are getting a false snapshot of a very small, and insignificant part of a much bigger organisation.

Finally - perhaps you could introduce your mate to a non-political virtual branch that supports it's members and helps overcome the petty politics whenever it can.

Do you know of such a branch?

John

Nigel Hewitt

06-04-2003, 16:57

A diver I know, and who has been an active contributer here, has allowed his BSAC membership to lapse. One of the reasons he stated was to do with some of the attitudes displayed on these boards.

I fear that if somebody lapses a BSAC membership it will not be because of anything they read on these boards but because they are dissatisfied with their own club diving. Admit it - if you are happy diving with your club you'll keep diving with your club.

It is no good fighting to keep a member that wants to go. If BSAC diving no longer suits them either because they are going off UK diving or simply because they do most of their diving outside the club environment you will at most twist their arm for one more year. I count myself lucky to have a club with a good techie sub-group who tolerate my disgressions.

nigelH

John Williams

06-04-2003, 19:29

But surely we need to work out why that member is doing more diving outside of the club environment?

If the club is not providing what its members want then it is the club that needs to change.

This is the major strength of the BSAC - we are a HUGE club (40,000 members) made up of 1200 (or so) branches. All these branches have a different character. Hopefully there will be one that meets your own needs exactly within a few miles of where you live.

if there is not, and you have 7 mates who all want the same thing ...why not sart your own branch and see if you attract more members.

If people don't want to stay with BSAC then we SHOULD fight to keep them...either by change within the branch, or by offering an alternative branch that meets their needs.

BSAC as an international organisation is keen to embrace change diversity, and is constantly looking at areas that might need changing - unfortunately it takes more time for the parent organisation to react than it does for a branch.

BSAC needs your help...will you fight for the BSAC to retain members - and attract new ones??

John

Steve Walker

06-04-2003, 21:27

This is the major strength of the BSAC - we are a HUGE club (40,000 members)

John, I'm sure you've got access to more up to date figures than those I remember reading somewhere, at sometime, over the past few years up, but didn't that used to be 50,000 members not so long ago?
Regards
Steve

Paul Oliver

06-04-2003, 23:02

Steve

I have based my comments in the past on the numbers shown in the Incident Report 39,960 in 2002. A steady fall from a peak of 52,364 in 1995.

Regards

Paul

Vic

07-04-2003, 12:03

> But surely we need to work out why that member is doing more
> diving outside of the club environment?

A number of members of my branch (including me!) do quite a bit of diving outside the club environment.

The reason is easily apparent - BSAC tells us we can't do the things we want to do, and are fully trained and qualified to do.

What we're coming up against is the old "rule or recommendations" chestnut; what are the ramifications of ignoring the BSAC SDPs?

BSAC *could* sort this whole thing out very easily with a single sentence to the effect that "when SDPs are in disagreement with a diver's other qualifications, the diver shall decide which qualification is being used and adhere to the rules of that qualification".

One sentence, guys. Just issue that statement, and all these problems go away in an instant.

Vic.

John Williams

07-04-2003, 14:44

...except that my wife says that, by being a bloke, I'm fully qualified to be a totally incompetent buffoon.

So...since my BSAC qualifications and SDP says nothing about doing stupid things I could - by your suggestion - choose to apply my other qualification and do something stupid.

BSAC rules, recommendations and the SDP booklet have been written - calling upon years of accumulated experience from many many people - with the sole intention of keeping the majority of divers as safe as possible for most of the time...whilst still encouraging people to participate.

In all cases, no matter what aspect of life we discuss, there will be a difference of opinion as to what level of risk is acceptable.

BSAC has set out it's stall at a certain level. I makes suggestions and recommendations as to what each diver grade is capable of doing safely and what training is required to safely take on more adventurous diving.

In England the coroner takes the BSAC position as the standard - and measures the cases that comes before their courts against that standard. If you dive within that standard then there is little chance of you being found negligent. If you dive outside of the standard, or advocate the same then you had better have a pretty convincing argument for doing so.

If you wish to change the standards that BSAC sets then you must bring your experience and opinion to the BSAC table. If you have that expeerience and volunteer to be part of working groups looking at emergent technology, new techniques etc then it is likely that (provided your ideas are not too radical or outlandish) that you will be given the opportunity to contribute to the developemnt of future standards.

What you cannot do is pick and choose the rules from different organisations and apply them wherever you like. Anyone trying to drive down a British motorway at speeds permitted on a German Autobahn will soon find that out.

If you dive with BSAC then you should try to follow the rules/recommendations of that body.
If you don't like the rules/recommendations then you should still try to abide by them whilst you get them changed.

Anything else is simply unregulated anarchy.

John

Vic

07-04-2003, 17:31

> ...except that my wife says that, by being a bloke, I'm fully
> qualified to be a totally incompetent buffoon.

If you're asking me to argue with a woman, I'm afraid I'm not that brave...

> So...since my BSAC qualifications and SDP says nothing about
> doing stupid things I could - by your suggestion - choose to
> apply my other qualification and do something stupid.

No - BSAC still has the option to say which courses it recognises and which it does not (feel free to add the word "recognised" to my earlier suggestion).

> BSAC rules, recommendations and the SDP booklet have been
> written - calling upon years of accumulated experience from
> many many people - with the sole intention of keeping the
> majority of divers as safe as possible for most of the
> time...whilst still encouraging people to participate.

So why does BSAC so frequently disagree with *every* other diving organisation in the world? Why do BSAC officers so frequently do "private" dives outside of BSAC SDPs? Why does BSAC claim to recognise qualifications from other agencies then try to dibble with what is there?

Diving systems are frequently holistic things; to change one part may well invalidate the whole. Modifying someone else's course - however well-intentioned - will frequently reduce, rather that enhabce, the diver's safety.

> BSAC has set out it's stall at a certain level. I makes
> suggestions and recommendations as to what each diver grade
> is capable of doing safely and what training is required to
> safely take on more adventurous diving.

And that's immutable?

Guess why we lose so many divers...

> In England the coroner takes the BSAC position as the
> standard - and measures the cases that comes before their
> courts against that standard. If you dive within that
> standard then there is little chance of you being found
> negligent. If you dive outside of the standard, or advocate
> the same then you had better have a pretty convincing
> argument for doing so.

Fine - many of us *do* have an extremely convincing argument. I've no qualms about defending my actions - I'm not talking about exceeding my qualifications. I am, however, *strongly* recommending (for I can do no more) that BSAC do recognise those qualifications from other agencies that they claim to.

> If you wish to change the standards that BSAC sets then you
> must bring your experience and opinion to the BSAC table.

Here's a better plan - how about I bring someone else's experience and opinion to the table? Say, the sum total of IANTD or TDI?

I'm not talking about making up new rules to suit me, I'm talking about accepting best practice from those who (by our own frequent admission) do this stuff better than we do.

> If you have that expeerience and volunteer to be part of
> working groups looking at emergent technology, new techniques
> etc then it is likely that (provided your ideas are not too
> radical or outlandish) that you will be given the opportunity
> to contribute to the developemnt of future standards.

I have volunteered for working groups on several occasions; to date, I have only managed to get onto one of them. Outlandish? my ideas are usually merely the statements of best practice from those people actually doing what we claim to be trying to...

> What you cannot do is pick and choose the rules from
> different organisations and apply them wherever you like.
> Anyone trying to drive down a British motorway at speeds
> permitted on a German Autobahn will soon find that out.

No-one's talking about picking and choosing; we're talking about running a dive protocol in its original and unadulterated state. Not trying to exceed one's qualifications, not trying to create a hybrid to appear to be more qualified than one actually is, just the ability to run a dive *within one's qualifications* according to the safest method possible. I really don't think that's too much to ask.

> If you dive with BSAC then you should try to follow the
> rules/recommendations of that body.
> If you don't like the rules/recommendations then you should
> still try to abide by them whilst you get them changed.

So where does this leave us when those responsible for the rules/recommendations won't listen? That's right - all the experienced divers leave and go about their diving without BSAC's intervention. BSAC loses members - and they're the members we were relying on to continue the viability of the club.

> Anything else is simply unregulated anarchy.

Absolutely untrue.

If BSAC accepts another organisation's qualifications, it should abide by the requirements and capabilities of those qualifications.

If there is something wrong with those qualifications, BSAC should not accept them.

If there is nothing wrong with them, then BSAC should stop dibbling.

BSAC has become a faded superpower; diving is now perfectly possible without BSAC. If BSAC wishes to stem the loss of experienced divers from its ranks, it is to time to remove head from sand and look to *why* these people actually leave. The alternative is that more and more paperwork will emerge which doesn't actually address the underlying problem - so the exodus continues...

Vic.

ray carlisle

07-04-2003, 20:35

iainmsmith

07-04-2003, 22:54

But surely we need to work out why that member is doing more diving outside of the club environment?

In some cases, because it is not possible to do the diving that one is trained, assessed and qualified to do within the BSAC.

If the club is not providing what its members want then it is the club that needs to change.

Indeed...but a Branch can only change so far before it steps outside BSAC recommendations, even if the members of that Branch are qualified to make the changes that they want to.

if there is not, and you have 7 mates who all want the same thing ...why not sart your own branch and see if you attract more members.

Again, not possible as long as BSAC refuse to acknowledge the right of people to dive as they are qualified to do.

If people don't want to stay with BSAC then we SHOULD fight to keep them...either by change within the branch, or by offering an alternative branch that meets their needs.

See above.

BSAC as an international organisation is keen to embrace change diversity, and is constantly looking at areas that might need changing - unfortunately it takes more time for the parent organisation to react than it does for a branch.

How often has the O2/ppO2-for-deco question come up at DOC? How many more times are we going to have to ask before the parent changes and recognises that those of us qualified to deco on O2 at 6m are a) trained to do so b) have been assessed as competent to hold those stops and c) awarded a qualification which recognises a) and b). How many trimix qualifications has the BSAC awarded? How many trimix courses has the BSAC run? Yet the BSAC allegedly knows better than the agencies who have done both of the above...

BSAC needs your help...will you fight for the BSAC to retain members - and attract new ones??

Only when the BSAC gives me the ammunition to fight that fight. I refuse to engage in combat when armed only with blanks and a rubber bayonet.

Iain (who is only still a BSAC member because we haven't yet got round to turning our Branch into a multi-agency club. Why would I leave? Because on the majority of my "personal" dives, it is not possible for me to dive in accordance with my training and within BSAC recommendations.)

Twix

08-04-2003, 02:23

New to forum(just posted on instructors)
As a Padi diver who has just posted, reading this about restrictions and conflicts about equivalent qualifications does not make me feel as though swapping(or in reality combining, as that is what it will be) agencys will be as easy as it is made out to be. I don't intend this statement to cause any agency bashing( I only have Padi experience) but would welcome any comments, particularly people who have crossed from one agency to an other.

Thanks Twix

John Williams

08-04-2003, 10:03

Vic,

Sounded like you were volunteering to stand for Council and make a difference to me?

If you really care to change the BSAC then that is the best way to do it.

It might not get you onto NDC...but it will give you the opportunity to direct what NDC does through official policy.

Time to put money where mouth is my friend!

John

John Williams

08-04-2003, 10:06

Twix,

remember that you are a diver...and that all divers have strong opinions about diving.

What you see here, on these fora, are the most opininated - who have time on their hands to express that opinion (myself included).

My advice would be to contact your regional coach and ask for advice about finding a branch that welcomes agency crossovers and gets on with diving instead of politics.

When you get there you will find that the banch is full of divers ...who will, hopefully, soon become friends.

All the best

John

petem

08-04-2003, 10:12

I do not think it pays to get too narrow minded on this topic. Having been a member of several organisations including a Golf club, it is apparent that the younger element are not the joining types and the older element being left to shoulder much of the responsibility for the running of clubs, decide that enough is enough and so give up. I certainly do not think that you can turn this thread into one of BSAC bashing which appears to be the direction it is going.

I don't think it is actually BSAC bashing - the people posting about the restrictions are committed BSAC members, they want to stay members and dive within the club. If they did not they would be long gone.

They are attempting to improve BSAC from within but are frustrated that with regard to technical issues BSAC seems to be very insular, whereas in other areas we listen to others, for instance the changes to the resuscitation and recovery position guidelines.

This is particularly frustrating when its known the many of the senior hierarchy don't dive within the guidelines when on private dives, if they feel its OK to dive like that why is it necessary to prevent others.

There is a problem here that needs to be addressed.

Pete

Vic

08-04-2003, 10:19

> Sounded like you were volunteering to stand for Council and
> make a difference to me?

I might just do that.

> Time to put money where mouth is my friend!

I've already put my money where my mouth is. I might well do so again. I met the council a fe weeks ago, and they all seemed like decent folks - I think I could work with them.

But this fails to address a core problem - is it necessary for ordinary members to join Council to get heard in this organisation? Here is an opportunity for BSAC to respond to something that's been said *many* times by *many* people; the most constructive comment coming back (and it was constructive) is that I should join Council to get the point heard. That's a very sad indictment of our organisation! Now I and several others are putting in significant effort to reverse this image we have that BSAC doesn't listen to its members - but we really do need to move into a mindset where we discuss, rather than dictate. Many problems are soluble with less effort than is currently expended defending the "Party Line".

How about we all try to resolve problems, rather than defend positions?

Vic.

Mike Halligan

08-04-2003, 10:26

Don't worry about different strokes. There's life and there's politics, AFAICS, they're best separated. We're just down the coast from you and have a PADI-trained Chairman who is now a BSAC Advanced Diver and Theory Instructor. I'm AD and OWI but also have PADI and RYA qualifications.

Yet we are not in any way a multi-agency Branch, everyone arriving with us, be they PADI, SSI, NAUI is encouraged to extend their skills by striving for the next available BSAC qualification under the guidance of committed, competent mentors.

Please don't be deterred, follow John Williams' advice, speak to Jim D, and visit the excellent BSAC clubs on the Fylde coast.

Regards,

Mike

Steve Walker

08-04-2003, 11:11

Ray - It seems like you believe the problem is only with younger divers, the diver I referred to is at least as "chronologically advanced" as myself.

Twix - if you shop around a variety of branches as suggested on the instructor forum, you will undoubtedly find some who will make 'combining agencies' awkward, but I'm fairly sure you'll find plenty who will happily welcome someone with the qualifications to lead less experienced divers (most Uni clubs will snap your hand off at the offer)
happy hunting!

Steve Walker

08-04-2003, 11:52

There's far more to it than technical issues like the permitted ppO2 of deco gases, which seems to be the rising theme of the thread. Although you're right on to highlight the "do as I say not do as I do" attitude, lets not get too focussed on that, you can see that at branch level too.

AISI It's as much, if not more, to do with general ambience of our organization. For example, how much light-hearted banter do you see on these boards? Not a lot. What does that tell you about what you might expect to find if you joined one of the clubs?

A while ago someone posted on the first impressions you get when meeting folk in a new club, the general concensus seemed to be that a lot of divers you see at sites around the country would be likely to scare people away than encourage them to join.

Additionally, BSAC loses a fair few opportunities to promote itself into the public consciousness, e.g. there was some TV prog on at Xmas at year or two ago where friends of a disabled guy decided to surprise him with a gift of dive training, which organization do you think got the publicity? Not BSAC that's for sure. If fact the only time I've seen BSAC promoted on national TV was as one of the prizes on Blind Date (and no these progs aren't representative of my telly preferences).

I'm not suggesting a TV ad campaign, but a more general getting-in-amongst-it attitude,and a bit more friendliness wouldn't go amiss either. E.g there a millions of radio or magazine competions for all sorts of things - how much would a dive training package cost as a prize?

Most folk here will know about the financial hoo-har of a couple of years ago, and how it nearly sunk BSAC. A number of the changes we have seen seem to be directed towards modernizing BSAC, making it more viable in an increasingly competitive marketplace and trying to increase membership, no easy task and judging by the figures quoted above there's still a lot to be done.

Clearly, dive show presence and national try dive events need a bit more assistance. However, I don't see on the list of contacts at HQ anything or anyone to do with PR. Seems odd to me for a national governing body.

Regards
Steve

John Williams

08-04-2003, 13:00

You've gotta be in it to win it!

This includes the BSAC Management.

I'll look forward to seeing your name on my next ballot form.

(maybe then we'll ALL get to know who "Vic" really is?)

John

Philip Smith

08-04-2003, 14:01

Vic wrote:
But this fails to address a core problem - is it necessary for ordinary members to join Council to get heard in this organisation?

John replied:
You've gotta be in it to win it!

This includes the BSAC Management.

John, that is an outrageous attitude. I sincerely hope council members do not share that view.

(maybe then we'll ALL get to know who "Vic" really is?)

"Vic" is someone who writes a lot of sense.

Philip Smith

john kendall

08-04-2003, 18:18

"Vic" is someone who writes a lot of sense.

"Vic" is also a guy called Vic. What is with all the Quotation Marks?

John

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

08-04-2003, 21:44

OK, I?ll have a go at answering a few of the comments, but carry on - a most interesting discussion!

First up, the original post of this thread - I have never heard of anybody deciding to leave the BSAC because of a forum posting, if that was the case then you would have got rid of me years ago ;-) But people do leave, in large numbers, for a wide variety of reasons (they always have) - it is the imbalance between leavers and joiners that has led to the recent (slowing) decline in membership.

We run a continuous lapsed members survey, I?ll give you here some actual figures from over a years worth of data to give you some idea of what is happening and the priority areas to address -

I have moved 15%
Lost interest in diving 10%
Too expensive 6%
Dissatisfaction with Branch 9%
Joined other Diving organisation 2%
Another adventure sport 6%
Circumstances changed 40%
Too time consuming 2%
Dissatisfaction with BS-AC 5%
Other 5%

The point I am trying to make here is that it is only 14% who give dissatisfaction with their branch/BSAC as the reason. Although this area does need addressing (we don?t want dissatisfied members!) that alone will not magically ?cure? the problem. Note the figures for moved, lost interest and circumstances changed - 65%, or 2 out of 3 members who leave.

What I believe that we are primarily seeing here is a change in society, this is a change that has been seen in many member based club organisations such as ours. People are cash rich and time poor, time is the limiting factor for many people and there is a constant urge to seek an ever greater return on time - note that the ?too expensive? figure was only 6%. The challenge is for us all is to change our club to address this change in society and adjust to the market that is there, the market is not going to adjust to us!

So those are the facts, ideas are more than welcome as always. If anybody can come up with the sure-fire, dead-cert one simple thing that we can do to turn everything around overnight then I?ll probably be able to arrange for the entire Council of the BSAC to kneel and pay homage to you, we?ve been trying to find that one answer for years :-) But please - keep discussing, keep coming up with ideas and suggestions, what has worked in your branch, what hasn?t made any difference?

I?d just like to nail the Vic/John discussion on the head, I think you were a bit out-of-order John suggesting that Vic should simply stand for Council. You DO NOT have to be a Council member to contribute (I don?t have to tell you that John!), Vic does already contribute massively to the club, but even that doesn?t matter, we will listen to ANYBODY. We?re not proud you know, we don?t care WHERE a good idea comes from and every member of the club is entitled to comment. But it would be nice if a few more people stood for Council, you?ll need somebody to run the clubs IT next time around for starters! Have a word with anybody on Council if you?re interested, join a working group, get involved.

A comment was made about the PR function within the club. We do not have a dedicated PR function at HQ at present, we used to but due to the financial crisis a few years back we had to let that job go. It is now handled by the Communications Team (Mary Tetley) with professional help from a PR firm that we hire for specific tasks. So there is a visible PR function within the club, it is ongoing and uses a variety of PR channels.

I think that covers most of the points raised, as I?ve said I?m following the thread with interest so keep it up folks.

Regards

Keith L
BSAC Council Member

ray carlisle

08-04-2003, 21:50

Ray - It seems like you believe the problem is only with younger divers, the diver I referred to is at least as "chronologically advanced" as myself.

At 50 years of age I consider myself to be chronologocally advanced but looking at the age range of clubs and organisations I belong to, I am still being referred to as ' the boy'. If you consider how much it costs to join something like my scuba club then we can all see why it is only the older lot who can afford it. At least in our club we are actively doing something about it by considering different ways of payment.

John Williams

09-04-2003, 01:27

John, that is an outrageous attitude. I sincerely hope council members do not share that view.

Why?

As with anything...you have to be a part of something if you want to influence it.

Every BSAC member is a part of the organisation...yet over 95% cannot be bothered to vote.

The more involved you get the more influence you get...that's true in every walk of life.

If Vic wants to have great influence he will have to have great involvement...and Council is as good a way as any to get seriously involved.

So why is my comment "outrageous"?

john

John Williams

09-04-2003, 01:35

I?d just like to nail the Vic/John discussion on the head, I think you were a bit out-of-order John suggesting that Vic should simply stand for Council. You DO NOT have to be a Council member to contribute (I don?t have to tell you that John!), Vic does already contribute massively to the club, but even that doesn?t matter, we will listen to ANYBODY. We?re not proud you know, we don?t care WHERE a good idea comes from and every member of the club is entitled to comment. But it would be nice if a few more people stood for Council, you?ll need somebody to run the clubs IT next time around for starters! Have a word with anybody on Council if you?re interested, join a working group, get involved.

Never said standing for Council would be simple.

Never said that this was the only route to influence management (as you know I'm not on Council and I have some influence in the areas in which I contribute). There are other, more practical and less political, ways in which to contribute/influence as well.

What I did suggest (but probably only in my own mind) was that to guarantee an input into whatever area you feel passionate about a position on Council opens many doors within the BSAC.

If Vic gets elected to Council...and can convince others who get elected that he has a point then he can weild far more influence from inside of Council than he ever could from the outside.

No backbencher has the same influence on decisions as a cabinet minister.

John

Adrian Kelland

09-04-2003, 07:28

No backbencher has the same influence on decisions as a cabinet minister.

I love analogies, the're just like gold bars.

It's a shame we only elect MPs. It would be interesting if we voted for cabinet posts.

I do agree with the general thrust of your post John.

Probably not enough people look at how hard a club is to run. Training and diving are what we are about, but the support structure of treasurer and secretary etc are no less important to club health at branch and HQ level.

Adrian

Philip Smith

09-04-2003, 09:18

:=John, that is an outrageous attitude. I sincerely hope council members do not share that view.
:=

Why?

Because in the context within which it was expressed, it rejected the notion that the views of ordinary members could be heard unless they get onto Council. The corollary, that, once elected, Council members need not heed the views of ordinary members, is undemocratic and therefore outrageous in a democratic Club. I notice you have moderated that view slightly in your reply to Keith.

As with anything...you have to be a part of something if you want to influence it.

Ordinary members are part of something: a Club with a representative management body.

Every BSAC member is a part of the organisation...yet over 95% cannot be bothered to vote.

Ah, you appear to have disdain for the vast majority of the membership, which may explain your attitude. Democracy is more than elections. I wish more members would participate in elections, but, since you do not know who voted and who did not, you cannot tar everyone with the same brush. In any case, members who do not vote for whatever reason do not lose their right to be represented.

Philip Smith

Mike Halligan

09-04-2003, 10:08

Now that will only inflame him further. Yes, the displayed attitude (if accurately displayed) would be outrageous, IMHO, and I would have said so earlier had you not beaten me to it. However, as John has demonstrated in answer to Keith, his firmly held views are valid in their context.

Perhaps it would help to contemplate the respect shown by 19 in 20 members whose votes are not received. Insufficient respect shown to the BSAC, maybe? But then again respect cannot be demanded, it must be earned - and the only way to earn it is to give it, hmmm. When one feels exposed and under fire as our vanguard surely must - everyone's whingeing and no-one's bothering to vote/help/support - it is hard to recall that you forgot to encourage them several months earlier.

In my own case, I'm very happy to help, where, when and how ever I can. In this, I respond to encouragement (flattery) and conversely don't respond to pompous asses braying (bs). Regrettably, and to the consternation of those seeking to direct, I occasionally confuse the two. At the point that I smell BS, a conditioned reflex to support the leader vapourises and I can be every bit as subversive as the next man.

Perhaps my attitude is more prevalent than I thought and John, Council and Coaches could be more careful. Equally, those of us who do get our votes through (and 5% is a pretty poor show) ought allow our leaders to lead and bite back the criticism of frictions until we've contemplated how much runs smoothly.

Nah! It'd be no fun then.

Mike :-)

Steve Walker

09-04-2003, 11:10

First up, the original post of this thread - I have never heard of anybody deciding to leave the BSAC because of a forum posting

That's not quite what I wrote, I said the attutudes displayed on these boards were _one_ of the reasons, the inference being that the argumentative and sometimes very unfriendly nature of the debates here were off-putting to that diver. This then led to even more less-than-good-natured discussion.
As amusing as that irony is, I think thats a case of Q.E.D.

Re Communications/PR are they open to suggestions? Is there a PR budget?
Regards
Steve

Steve Walker

09-04-2003, 11:24

:=Ray - It seems like you believe the problem is only with younger divers, the diver I referred to is at least as "chronologically advanced" as myself.

At 50 years of age I consider myself to be chronologocally advanced but looking at the age range of clubs and organisations I belong to, I am still being referred to as ' the boy'. If you consider how much it costs to join something like my scuba club then we can all see why it is only the older lot who can afford it. At least in our club we are actively doing something about it by considering different ways of payment.

Indeed scuba can be off-puttingly expensive, especially in the early stages when you don't know if you're going to stick with it. Fortunately, there are a good number of University scuba clubs who cater for the younger (and less financially endowed) element, which is reassuring.

Combined with the Government's intended target of 50% of school leavers going on to Uni, that makes scuba reasonably accessible, and as most Uni's tend to support only BSAC (or SSAC) clubs, that's very good for BSACs future.

However, one of the biggest problems in that situation is a clash of "club culture" , ie "clubbing" is more popular than ever and is pretty much at odds with getting these folk out diving at 8am on a sunday morning ;)

Regards
Steve

John Williams

09-04-2003, 12:10

Ah, you appear to have disdain for the vast majority of the membership, which may explain your attitude. Democracy is more than elections. I wish more members would participate in elections, but, since you do not know who voted and who did not, you cannot tar everyone with the same brush. In any case, members who do not vote for whatever reason do not lose their right to be represented.

Philip Smith

Contrary to what is said below..this does not "inflame" me...it dissapoints me!

I do not tar anyone with any brush.

I simply point out that the most effective place from which to influence management is from within it. Surely you cannot argue with that?

I highlighted that the membership usually fails to vote and therefore allows the vocal minotity to dictate the composition of our elected representatives.

Many more do voice their opinions in other ways...but the correct way to do so would be in democratic elections. That IS what democracy is about after all. You'll probably find (I don't know) that the majority of those who do help in other ways will also be part of the cohort who DID vote!!

If you don't think management is currently listening...ask why?

1) It's because they don't represent the majority of BSAC - true enough! They represent the minority 5% who vote.
If you are one of the 95% who did not vote and don't like who's there or what they are doing...tough! You'll get your chance to elect someone else in due course.
That might sound harsh...but it is, after all, true!

2) Could it be that so few are involved that they are incredibly busy trying to do their best for ALL BSAC members and simply cannot respond to all the moaners and whingers out there? The solution here is for those who moan and whinge to try harder to take some of that load off the elected representatives and give them back the time they need to manage the BSAC effectively and so solve the problem the original moan was about.

3) Could it be that, with the limited time available to a volunteer Council member that all the good ideas are simply lost in the mountain of drivel that flows into their mailboxes. The vast majority of the communications received by Council and by HQ would be better directed to the Coaching Scheme ...a group of volunteers trying to put point 2 (above) into action but who are constantly bypassed by the membership and the branches.

One of the most disturbing things about "democracy" is that any good idea can be *talked out of time*. It happens in parliament and it happens in BSAC Council and it happens in BSAC branches and it happens in every diving family home.

At the moment the BSAC membership is not exercising its democratic right to vote in a Council truly representative of the majority (though those that do get elected do a damn fine job!)

The membership then do not allow those who have been elected the time or the freedom to actually get on with managing the BSAC.

I'll do all I can to encourage members to stand for Council..if nothing else it gives the membership a choice.

I do everything I can to support the aims and objectives of the BSAC - so that those who get elected have the time to get on with managing the BSAC.

I would hope that to expect the same from every other BAC member (to do what you can, in whatever way you can) is not asking too much.

What do you think?

John

John Williams

09-04-2003, 12:12

but the support structure of treasurer and secretary etc are no less important to club health at branch and HQ level.

Adrian

Could not agree more...there's no point in a cabinet if there are no MPs and even less if there is no electorate.

we all contribute in our own way...and it's all equally valid.

However - if you wish to influence management then the best place to do it from is from within the management structure.

Safe Diving

John

John Williams

09-04-2003, 12:18

That's not quite what I wrote, I said the attutudes displayed on these boards were _one_ of the reasons, the inference being that the argumentative and sometimes very unfriendly nature of the debates here were off-putting to that diver. This then led to even more less-than-good-natured discussion.

When did this rasoned debate - with thrust and counter thrust become unfriendly and argumentative?

I'm quite enjoying sharing my views...and the fact that BSAC positively encourages people to express them is really quite refreshing.

Not only that...but every member of the BSAC has been told ...by everyone who has contributed - me, Phillip, Keith etc. - that not only do they have a right to be heard but that they also have a right to stand for elcetion and get right into the influentioal heart of any debate they choose.

If I were looking in the only concern that I would have would be that the BSAC is perhaps a little too liberal!!

John

Steve Walker

09-04-2003, 13:04

:=That's not quite what I wrote, I said the attutudes displayed on these boards were _one_ of the reasons, the inference being that the argumentative and sometimes very unfriendly nature of the debates here were off-putting to that diver. This then led to even more less-than-good-natured discussion.

When did this rasoned debate - with thrust and counter thrust become unfriendly and argumentative?

I'm quite enjoying sharing my views...and the fact that BSAC positively encourages people to express them is really quite refreshing.

Not only that...but every member of the BSAC has been told ...by everyone who has contributed - me, Phillip, Keith etc. - that not only do they have a right to be heard but that they also have a right to stand for elcetion and get right into the influentioal heart of any debate they choose.

If I were looking in the only concern that I would have would be that the BSAC is perhaps a little too liberal!!

John

Liberal? How so and where? I guess that depends very much on individual perspective.

I personally don't think you have to look far to find unfriendly exchanges, but then again "one mans meat is another mans poison" so what is 'cut and thrust' to one person might look like simply 'arguing the toss' to another.

Now some people might not see a problem with that, but if it does actually affect membership numbers then I would suggest that it might be something to bear in mind, and I think I'm not the only one.

There are contributers here (myself included) who frequent another, independant, multi-agency forum, and the exchanges are a darn sight more friendly than what you tend to find here, Some people join and seem to get bored and leave, primarily (I imagine) because only good natured banter is tolerated. However, the 550+ other members seem to like the ambience.

Regards
Steve

Mike Halligan

09-04-2003, 13:46

Now some people might not see a problem with that, but if it does actually affect membership numbers then I would suggest that it might be something to bear in mind, and I think I'm not the only one.

Of course it must affect commitment and thereby renewals, whatever Keith may say about exit surveys. We are dealing in attitudes here, and perceptions. There is a very bad smell growing in these forums since shortly before Christmas.

When someone like Vic, who has contributed for years, consistently helpful, positive and supportive is chewed up for asking legitimate questions twice inside a fortnight, it begins to look very much like my 1960s Grammar School - a self-serving gang of bullies from the staffroom intimidating 11 to 18 year olds into subservience, driving out freedom of thought in order to render their own cosy lives almost comatose.

There are contributers here (myself included) who frequent another, independant, multi-agency forum, and the exchanges are a darn sight more friendly than what you tend to find here,

Where's that, then? Do tell, I would be very interested and I'm sure there must be many as disgusted as I. The BSAC forums are becoming a place one fears to read, let alone write, because of a downright nasty tone of expression becoming ever more prevalent.

Regards,

Mike

Steve Walker

09-04-2003, 15:06

Where's that, then? Do tell...

With pleasure Mike, although this is not a new piece of info, it has been posted many times before, most commonly by Bren Tierney. Don't be fooled by the name of the site, there are divers on those boards ranging from the south-coast of England to Glasgow/Edinburgh, as well as Malta, Canary Isles, Canada and New Zealand ! I kid you not... You'll recognise a good few names I'm sure.
Cheers
Steve
PS if you log on don't forget to post something in the "Introductions" section so folk know who you are.

TerryH

09-04-2003, 15:38

Is this the same YD that had a nasty debate/personal attack on
a certain female CCR user a little while back?

Think I'll stick to UK-rec & BSAC, less venom!

TerryH

Steve Walker

09-04-2003, 16:20

Is this the same YD that had a nasty debate/personal attack on
a certain female CCR user a little while back?

Terry, I'm well aware of who you are referring to, and have met the person in question. However it's a gross understatement to say your description above is inaccurate. If you want more detail I'll discuss it off-line, but not here.
Regards
Steve

PeteM

09-04-2003, 18:42

Think I'll stick to UK-rec & BSAC, less venom!

You still think that after your heated discussion on ukrs recently ?

TerryH

09-04-2003, 21:58

You still think that after your heated discussion on ukrs recently?

That's not heated discussion that's playing!

All you need for a nice supposedly fluffy forum to turn into
a slagging match is an opposing view and by the very nature of
fora that's what your gonna get.

TerryH

TerryH

09-04-2003, 22:02

Terry, I'm well aware of who you are referring to, and have met the person in question. However it's a gross understatement to say your description above is inaccurate. If you want more detail I'll discuss it off-line, but not here.
Regards
Steve

It's ok Steve I know the basic details and it's not really that
important. It's just that having read what is largely a pretty
good fora (YD), there are times when it has sunk into a bit of
a slagging match. So holding them up as a beacon of light may
not be as appropriate.

Rgds
TerryH

Philip Smith

09-04-2003, 23:09

I simply point out that the most effective place from which to influence management is from within it.

No, your reply to Vic suggested that inside management was the only effective place from which to influence it.

Many more do voice their opinions in other ways...but the correct way to do so would be in democratic elections. That IS what democracy is about after all.

As I said, there is more to democracy than this. Elections are only a means of appointing representatives. Those elected then need to represent more than just themselves, or those who voted for them. They represent their entire constituency (whoever that may be). To do this, there need to be mechanisms for the views of constituents to be heard and considered between elections. Of course, if those views conflict with the settled view of the elected representative(s), they will have no impact on policy. Reasonable people should be willing to accept a rational rebuttal from their representatives until the next election. My impression is that BS-AC has a mixed record on this over the last few years. There has been extensive consultation on some issues and apparently closed minds on others.

If you don't think management is currently listening...ask why?

1) It's because they don't represent the majority of BSAC - true enough! They represent the minority 5% who vote.

See above. Even if their own views are only representative of a minority, they are elected to "represent" everyone, which at the very least means being prepared to listen to members' views. In any case, you will note that I have not said that Council is not listening. I reacted to your attitude that you need to get on Council to have any impact on proceedings.

2) Could it be that so few are involved that they are incredibly busy trying to do their best for ALL BSAC members and simply cannot respond to all the moaners and whingers out there?

3) Could it be that, with the limited time available to a volunteer Council member that all the good ideas are simply lost in the mountain of drivel that flows into their mailboxes.

These remarks are quite derogatory about the membership. I take it you're not electioneering any time soon!

You give a list of reasons why Council might not be listening. Does that mean you think they are not listening?

Philip Smith

John Williams

09-04-2003, 23:24

These remarks are quite derogatory about the membership.

I don't think that they are...I think that they highlight a degree of ingnorance amongst the membership...though I do not attribute blame for that. We all need to communicate more effectivley than we do. That goes for Council out and for membership in and all the others in between.

I take it you're not electioneering any time soon!
If I was it would be to try to improve communication...and to ensure that communication went through the correct channels. At present - by bypassing those channels we end up with bottlenecks for stuff going in and out (and much gets lost on the way)

You give a list of reasons why Council might not be listening. Does that mean you think they are not listening?

I did not say Council was not listening...they all do their utmost to listen. What I said was that perhaps Council could not hear for all the noise. If we went through the proper channels most of our queries could be answered without going to a Council member - thus giving them more time to listen to the stuff that they need to hear but which often gets lost in the clamour for stuff that could/should be answered by someone else.

I also never said in as many words that the only place to have influence was on Council - except in my final flippant remark to Vic of "you gotta be in it to win it". There are MANY other ways to influence...but you must agree that Council is probably one of the most effective places from which to influence the way BSAC is managed.

John

Steve Walker

10-04-2003, 12:39

there are times when it has sunk into a bit of a slagging match.

True, but the banning of two posters has removed all but minor niggling.
Regards
Steve

Steve Greenham

12-04-2003, 01:10

I simply point out that the most effective place from which to influence management is from within it. Surely you cannot argue with that?

I'll argue with that. In my experience the most effective place from which to influence management is from an expensive consultancy. They are paying a lot for the advice, it has less political baggage so they are more likely to take it.

Steve Greenham

12-04-2003, 01:19

What I believe that we are primarily seeing here is a change in society, this is a change that has been seen in many member based club organisations such as ours. People are cash rich and time poor, time is the limiting factor for many people

While there's some truth in that, its been the case for a while so is a static circumstance rather than a change in circumstance.

I'd suggest in many many cases the big change is having children. When kids come along you have neither time nor money to go diving, when you do get away you need childcare and when you are on holiday you are more likely to be making sandcastles than going off on a boat for the day.

In my experience most clubs are geared to 20 and 30 somethings, dual income no kids. I'm not saying that is wrong, but pointing out that when people move from that stage of life to the pressures (and joys) of a young family they will have less time to be involved and after a couple of years wonder what they are paying their subs (and that huge servicing bill) for. Been there, done that, got the romper suits.