View Full Version : Sports Diver via School
Adam Worth
21-03-2003, 17:53
Unsure if this is the right forum but:
Is it possible for a member of a BSAC branch to attend a BSAC school course for Sports Diver without the knowledge/consent of their Branch Diving Officer? How is the qualification awarded - in a Blue Qualification Book or a card or certificate.
I have been diving (with the same branch) for over five years, and want to remain a member of the the branch, however have no qualifications. This has now become a problem because there is an SDC I would like to attend which requires Sports Diver as a minumum. We have some political problems with the issue of qualifications which I am not in a position to challenge at the moment and therefore intend to circumvent by going elsewhere. I appreciate that I'll have to attend some lectures and retake an exam and the pool and open water work I passed five years ago, but can live with that for the sake of a quiet life.
I appreciate that the 'DO refuses to sign' problem has been raised here before. I'm not attempting to reopen previous debates about whether or not the DO can refuse qualifications when all prerequisits have been met (either on an individual or branch wide basis) or can add to the requirements for qualifications, but to obtain an answer to the question above.
Adam
justin owen
21-03-2003, 22:22
As I see it (and i'm only an Ocean Diver trainee) one of the good things about being "part of the largest diving club in the world" is that you should be able to train to a higher level with any other BSAC branch/school and obtain a qualification outside your present club without any problem. I'm considering doing my sports-diver training at a BSAC school while on my holidays this summer... How could a BSAC branch ignore the training provided by another BSAC certified branch/school...?
derek perry
22-03-2003, 10:23
Adam
As a D.O. myself I often suggest this route to trainees as a 'Short circuit' of the branch training system. As a BSAC qualification you would be signed up by a qualified instructor and your D.O. would be very wrong to not confirm and sign you as qualified. However if you are in a branch that has a power mad D.O. or a branch with 'Political' problems then it is probably prudent to approach your D.O. to tell them what you intend to do. Don't be bullied, there is nothing wrong in what you want to do.
Point out the benefits. i.e.
Qualified to accompany other divers of same or lesser qualifications on dives
Qualified to go on more SDC's.
Qualified to go on Instructor Foundation Course and then assist in training.
If your D.O. is a 'pressed D.O.' and wants out, the quicker you become qualified the quicker you can take over that post.
The lessone are signed up in your Blue Log book by the instructor and once all is completed the D.O. signes and stamps the qualification page.
Derek Perry
D.O. Kensington Cosmos S.A.C.
London
Unsure if this is the right forum but:
Is it possible for a member of a BSAC branch to attend a BSAC school course for Sports Diver without the knowledge/consent of their Branch Diving Officer? How is the qualification awarded - in a Blue Qualification Book or a card or certificate.
I have been diving (with the same branch) for over five years, and want to remain a member of the the branch, however have no qualifications. This has now become a problem because there is an SDC I would like to attend which requires Sports Diver as a minumum. We have some political problems with the issue of qualifications which I am not in a position to challenge at the moment and therefore intend to circumvent by going elsewhere. I appreciate that I'll have to attend some lectures and retake an exam and the pool and open water work I passed five years ago, but can live with that for the sake of a quiet life.
I appreciate that the 'DO refuses to sign' problem has been raised here before. I'm not attempting to reopen previous debates about whether or not the DO can refuse qualifications when all prerequisits have been met (either on an individual or branch wide basis) or can add to the requirements for qualifications, but to obtain an answer to the question above.
Adam
Is it possible for a member of a BSAC branch to attend a BSAC school course for Sports Diver without the knowledge/consent of their Branch Diving Officer?
Yes
"How is the qualification awarded - in a Blue Qualification Book or a card or certificate."
If you were to do it now, you would get the elements signed off in the new filofax type record book rather than an old QRB. If your membership to BSAC is through a branch then the Branch DO would be required to sign it off. If through BSAC direct, I believe that the school can now sign it ( I could be wrong here , you may still need to send it to BSAC ). The schools I have used have had an associated branch and by joining then the school can sign it off anyway.
Dave
Keith Lawrence(BSAC)
22-03-2003, 19:13
Justin (and others)
Derek has given a good answer. It is the DO of your primary branch (the one you pay BSAC subs via) who is the person who signs off the actual qualification. The vast majority of DO?s would have no problems whatsoever with a member doing part (or all) of their training with a school or another branch, when I was training I did my Novice I with my branch and Novice II/Sports Diver with a school, it is quite a common practice. But as you?ll be diving within the branch I think it is polite to chat to the DO about your intentions.
There are some DO?s who would ?baulk? at such an idea out of principle, fortunately they are in the minority as well as being wrong. If necessary you can change branches (I would!) if you come across a DO who refused to accept out-of-branch training, a word with the area coach would probably be in order as well. Many schools have a branch attached or closely associated with them, ask the school.
So the system should provide the broad range of training from multiple sources that you?ve asked for, that is what it is designed to do. Where it doesn?t it?s down to the individual DO?s not applying the system correctly.
Regards
Keith L
Paul Oliver
23-03-2003, 01:07
Hi
I have seriouse problems with all of your post:
1. You have been a branch member for 5 years and have no qualification!
So you have not passed any assesments, or your branch has not provided the training? Which one? Proberably some DO/TO input required on this forum.
2. Instructors sign the training objectives as passed the DO signs off the qualification. Any instructor can sign off an objective/lesson the DO must check they are in date/valid before signing the qualification. I have one who has tried to bluff - he has been caught out cheating and is a fool (bloody idiot may be more accurate). But i am taking him for the lessons tomorrow.
The DO must be happy the sign off's are valid. I will Phone HQ and check the instructor numbers for any i do not know.
Blatently obviouse from this thread:-
DO is a power crazy fool or diver is a fcuk whit who is totally unsafe and no one will dive with.
Sorry 5 Years and no valid qualification - Whats going on here?
MTPW
Paul
DO Canterbury Divers BSAC Branch 326
Unsure if this is the right forum but:
Is it possible for a member of a BSAC branch to attend a BSAC school course for Sports Diver without the knowledge/consent of their Branch Diving Officer? How is the qualification awarded - in a Blue Qualification Book or a card or certificate.
I have been diving (with the same branch) for over five years, and want to remain a member of the the branch, however have no qualifications. This has now become a problem because there is an SDC I would like to attend which requires Sports Diver as a minumum. We have some political problems with the issue of qualifications which I am not in a position to challenge at the moment and therefore intend to circumvent by going elsewhere. I appreciate that I'll have to attend some lectures and retake an exam and the pool and open water work I passed five years ago, but can live with that for the sake of a quiet life.
I appreciate that the 'DO refuses to sign' problem has been raised here before. I'm not attempting to reopen previous debates about whether or not the DO can refuse qualifications when all prerequisits have been met (either on an individual or branch wide basis) or can add to the requirements for qualifications, but to obtain an answer to the question above.
Adam
Hi Adam
Lots of good answers so far so I won't repeat them
The area that I think you should address though is "what on earth has been going on for 5 years?"
Is it your own fault that you have not been assessed or your Branches? If it is yours why not go to your Training Officer or DO and ask for help
If it is not your fault ask Regional Coach to help. The RC will give you and your Branch help and/or advice on how best to sort things out
Hope it goes well
JP
Nigel Hewitt
23-03-2003, 08:40
I have seriouse problems with all of your post:
1. You have been a branch member for 5 years and have no qualification!
So you have not passed any assesments, or your branch has not provided the training? Which one? Proberably some DO/TO input required on this forum.
**shrug**
I have been a BSAC branch member for only four years and I have no BSAC qualifications. If I saw an SDC that I thought I would benefit from then I suspect I would have to have to go to my DO and get the necessary stuff to do the course but until then why should I need to bother?
nigelH
Hi
I have seriouse problems with all of your post:
1. You have been a branch member for 5 years and have no qualification!
That's not what he said at all. He said that he joined to get Sport Diver. Implicit in that, I would say, is that he is a certified diver already, e.g. OD or Padi OW etc.
Sorry 5 Years and no valid qualification - Whats going on here?
Umm, your checking what was actually written before going on a rant perhaps?
Dave
Steve Walker
23-03-2003, 17:42
Absolutely no offence intended Adam, but the last time in my recall that someone posted a question which, like your post, was a bit of an "eyebrow raiser", it turned out to be a purely hypothetical query which had been posted as if it was factual.
If your question is not hypothetical then I think folk here would be interested to know a little more about the situation: e.g do you already have other agency qualifications? What is your motivation for staying with a branch which, with its "political problems" sounds to me not one I would wish to stay with ?
Regards
Adam Worth
24-03-2003, 15:26
No offence taken.
I joined the club five years ago to learn to dive and to go diving. At the time I completed all of lectures and practical work for Club diver and Sports Diver. All of the boxes are signed except a couple of the Sports Diver open water ones, which were not signed at the time (and the DO now does not remember doing with me).
The DO takes the view that the Club is entitled to set higher standards than the BSAC minimum for the award of each qualification and at the time told me he would sign/stamp the qualification when I had more experience. That was five years and 250 dives (mostly logged) ago.
This has not been a problem because it has not stopped me diving. I do most of my diving with friends (who mostly have similar experience and lack of qualifications) in the club and do not want to have to find another club. It has become a problem because I have identified a course I would like to do and can't. The DO still takes the view that he will sign when I have more experience and that our club sets higher standards than most.
I therefore intend to circumvent the problem and if I can not do this via Sports Diver at a school (talking to the school involved it appears that I can) will do the corresponding PADI courses.
Although I get on well with the DO, I do not feel in a position to challenge the way in which he does things and would not have the support of a lot of senior members if I did. I feel I will cause less ill feeling this way.
Thanks to all for your advice.
Adam
john kendall
24-03-2003, 16:33
No offence taken.
I joined the club five years ago to learn to dive and to go diving. At the time I completed all of lectures and practical work for Club diver and Sports Diver. All of the boxes are signed except a couple of the Sports Diver open water ones, which were not signed at the time (and the DO now does not remember doing with me).
The DO takes the view that the Club is entitled to set higher standards than the BSAC minimum for the award of each qualification and at the time told me he would sign/stamp the qualification when I had more experience. That was five years and 250 dives (mostly logged) ago.
This has not been a problem because it has not stopped me diving. I do most of my diving with friends (who mostly have similar experience and lack of qualifications) in the club and do not want to have to find another club. It has become a problem because I have identified a course I would like to do and can't. The DO still takes the view that he will sign when I have more experience and that our club sets higher standards than most.
I therefore intend to circumvent the problem and if I can not do this via Sports Diver at a school (talking to the school involved it appears that I can) will do the corresponding PADI courses.
Although I get on well with the DO, I do not feel in a position to challenge the way in which he does things and would not have the support of a lot of senior members if I did. I feel I will cause less ill feeling this way.
Not being funny, but he is not allowed to do that. A DO must sign a qualification if all of the boxes have been signed by instructors. They do not have to allow you to dive to the level of that qualification if they consider you need more experience, but they must sign the qualifiaction if it has all been completed.
I think you need to phone HQ and talk to someone about this.
John
Adam, how old are you. If I was treated this way I would go elsewhere and I can only assume you started as a junior and have been intimidated by the DO and the structure he has built around himself.
This guy is in my view acting very poorly, I could put it a lot stronger. I think you have shown remarkable restraint nd tenacity in the circumstances, unless you are a very poor dive the guy is being totally un-reasonable. "IF" its within his powers, I understand it isnt, then he should be reported as he will prevent many people from becoming divers, or forcing them to join another Branch.
The attitude is not unique, you have done extremely well to continue to dive under these circumstances.
Which Padi course are you thinking of doing as the cross-over from BSAC to Padi or vice versa often results in gaining a lower qualification with the 'other' agency than you currently enjoy.
I do hope you can get it resolved.
Matt
Steve Walker
24-03-2003, 17:38
Blimey! What an easy going chap you must be to put up with that BS, it certainly wouldn't be me! I find it very hard indeed to believe that after so many dives you can't be deemed capable of the Sport Diver tag, I think your DO hs some very strange ideas.
May I suggest an alternative? why not join BSAC direct? that way, (if I understand correctly) HQ becomes your DO and will sign you up as long as your QRB has the signature(s) of NQI's in the appropriate boxes. You can then still dive with your mates without looking for another club (which in itself ain't that hard a task).
Which SD OW stuff is unsigned and where are you based? I bet there's Instuctors on these (or other) boards in your home locale who would take you out for your OW requirements if you wanted.
I think your tolerance is remarkable and if those 250 dives you've logged are all UK ones you've damn well earned those signatures.
Regards
Alan Taylor
24-03-2003, 17:45
Unsure if this is the right forum but:
Is it possible for a member of a BSAC branch to attend a BSAC school course for Sports Diver without the knowledge/consent of their Branch Diving Officer? How is the qualification awarded - in a Blue Qualification Book or a card or certificate.
I have been diving (with the same branch) for over five years, and want to remain a member of the the branch, however have no qualifications. This has now become a problem because there is an SDC I would like to attend which requires Sports Diver as a minumum. We have some political problems with the issue of qualifications which I am not in a position to challenge at the moment and therefore intend to circumvent by going elsewhere. I appreciate that I'll have to attend some lectures and retake an exam and the pool and open water work I passed five years ago, but can live with that for the sake of a quiet life.
I appreciate that the 'DO refuses to sign' problem has been raised here before. I'm not attempting to reopen previous debates about whether or not the DO can refuse qualifications when all prerequisits have been met (either on an individual or branch wide basis) or can add to the requirements for qualifications, but to obtain an answer to the question above.
Adam
Being one of the older generation of divers, i seem to remember from Branch Officer Handbooks that no branch officer (including DO's) had the right to, add too, or subtract from, the rules of the CLUB, so it would appear that you are being very unfairly treated. The benefit of being in the club is surely so we have set and matching standards no matter were they are obtained and are accepted at and by any branch, subject of course to being 'checked out' and being a fully paid up member of the CLUB.
Pack your kit and fin over to another branch I say
Keep on learnin'
Alan
While I fully agree with Steve and others that you are better
off going with BSAC direct or a school or even maybe
temporarily joining another club, this may cause another
problem.
With 250 dives you obviously like your club and enjoy diving
with your mates and buddies. However there is a danger that
going outside the club will anger your DO and he will make up
his own rules yet again when you return with your outside
agency etc. signed up grade.
It is one of BSAC's prime directives that you "must not add or
subtract from the syllabus". Your DO is very wrong adding all
these levels. But he can quite happily make club rulkes that
sasy you hace to have 250 dievs before you can doive with other
Sports divers.
So he absolutely cannot stop you getting Sposrt Diver, but he
can add as many hoops afterwards as long as they are not part
of any course.
I would suggest a little blackmail here. Write a letter to the
BSAC Area Coach and duplicate same to the National Diving
Officer at BSAC HQ. Set out exactly waht you have acheived and
copy your current QRB and say some parts of your dive log
(Dives 50, 100, 150 etc. will suffice). Dont forget to add the
fact that you believe (be vague here) that it is not allowed to
change the syllabus.
Present this package to your DO and if neccessary get a dive
buddy or mate to go along as moral support. Tell him you are
unhappy with the current state of affairs and so are prepared
to take it further. Dont give too much detail, just say you are
prepared to take it further. Let him see all the prepartion
you have done and ask him again why your Sports Diver isnt done.
No response? Then send the letters and start being very noisy.
Complaining at every opportunity.
In our club a keen diver with 250 dives, would after 5 years be
at least ACI/DL + Adv.Nitrox or OWI/Advanced + Adv.Nitrox and
a few other grades such as PADI DM and maybe TDI
blender/extended range etc.
You have definately been sold a pup and shouldnt stand for
this.
Get writing and get complaining.
And I will add to what Steve says and offer you two Sport
qualyfying dives (as long as you live in central Southern area
that is) and I am sure other Instructors will offer same within
there clubs if thats no good.
A disgusted.
TerryH
Paul Saunders
24-03-2003, 18:55
I've read this tread with interest. I'm sure you have got the impression that your DO is not only unreasonable but is also action outside his authority.
There is on important question that has not been raised. You have said you have done over 250 dives ? with friends from the branch who are not qualified. If one of you has an incident that, heaven forbid, leads to a fatality what would the coroner have to say?
Please, please get qualified and please have a word with your area or regional coach or, if necessary, HQ. People like your branch's DO do our organisation no good at all. This person's actions are preventing you, and others, from receiving the training that is available to ALL BSAC members.
Paul Saunders
24-03-2003, 19:07
I've read this tread with interest. I'm sure you have got the impression that your DO is not only unreasonable but is also action outside his authority.
There is on important question that has not been raised. You have said you have done over 250 dives ? with friends from the branch who are not qualified. If one of you has an incident that, heaven forbid, leads to a fatality what would the coroner have to say?
Please, please get qualified and please have a word with your area or regional coach or, if necessary, HQ. People like your branch's DO do our organisation no good at all. This person's actions are preventing you, and others, from receiving the training that is available to ALL BSAC members.
Mike Halligan
24-03-2003, 19:24
Adam,
You've the patience of a saint. What do you and your DO think you've paid your subs for? For pity's sake sort this guy and his shell-back friends, by speaking to your Area/Regional Coach. If what you say is true, you've not been diving with the BSAC but with an organisation that spun-off into its own little world several years ago.
Like many others, I would happily undertake any specific dives you've not had signed off, but I doubt this guy would accept a non-Branch instructor.
Best of luck,
Mike
Gordon Archer
25-03-2003, 14:31
Unsure if this is the right forum but:
Is it possible for a member of a BSAC branch to attend a BSAC school course for Sports Diver without the knowledge/consent of their Branch Diving Officer? How is the qualification awarded - in a Blue Qualification Book or a card or certificate.
In short yes this is always possible but not ethical, but the DO of you club is not treating you ethically.
All the replies you have had are good but maybe something is missing.
The current DO must be supported in the club by his commitee or there would be a riot. Therefore it must be a deep routed problem.
So why not you and your friends stand for some of the committe positions when they come up and get the club put right.
It would only take a year of office, so go for it.
Even stand for DO!!
It might just be enough to shake them all up.
:=Unsure if this is the right forum but:
:=
:=Is it possible for a member of a BSAC branch to attend a BSAC school course for Sports Diver without the knowledge/consent of their Branch Diving Officer? How is the qualification awarded - in a Blue Qualification Book or a card or certificate.
:=
In short yes this is always possible but not ethical,
There is nothing unethical about going to a school for training and often makes perfect sense.
Dave
Andy Wade
26-03-2003, 00:02
:=:=Unsure if this is the right forum but:
:=:=
:=:=Is it possible for a member of a BSAC branch to attend a BSAC school course for Sports Diver without the knowledge/consent of their Branch Diving Officer? How is the qualification awarded - in a Blue Qualification Book or a card or certificate.
:=:=
:=
:=
:=In short yes this is always possible but not ethical,
There is nothing unethical about going to a school for training and often makes perfect sense.
Absolutely agree with you.
Although it's perhaps nice to at least inform your branch DO. That would be more 'ethical' (if ethical is the right word).
Mind you, the DO mentioned appears on the face of it to be running a dictatorship, so perhaps he doesn't deserve informing.
It takes all sorts.
I'd change branches.
> (if ethical is the right word).
I think "courteous" is probably more like it...
> I'd change branches.
Me too...
Vic.
Gordon Archer
26-03-2003, 10:41
> (if ethical is the right word).
I think "courteous" is probably more like it...
Courteous maybe more polite but the DO of this club is showing no courtesy towards his members.
> I'd change branches.
Changing branches is a cop out, lets cure the problem, it makes for better clubs.
Gordon Archer
26-03-2003, 10:51
There is nothing unethical about going to a school for training and often makes perfect sense.
Dave
I did not say it was unethical to go to a school for training; it was doing it without informing the DO.
Remember you do not need the DO's consent to go for training elswhere, but to inform the DO is I believe a human courtesy.
Steve Walker
26-03-2003, 10:59
Changing branches is a cop out
Is it? Are situations like that worth arguing over? If the rest of the club really are happy enough to go along with this DO and his attitude, it'd be an uphill struggle, which would only be worth it if there were sufficient others who share the same viewpoint, which seems not to be the case.
This kind of club-politics-BS has absolutely nothing to do with diving and everything to do with the petty side of human nature, as one of my regular dive buddies keeps saying in the face of this kind of behaviour "Remember, it's meant to be fun".
Regards
Steve
:=There is nothing unethical about going to a school for training and often makes perfect sense.
:=
:=Dave
I did not say it was unethical to go to a school for training; it was doing it without informing the DO.
Remember you do not need the DO's consent to go for training elswhere, but to inform the DO is I believe a human courtesy.
Given the original post and the DOs attitude , I see no reason to give him that coutesy. If he hadn't that attitude, this matter would never have come up.
The DO will found out when he needs to know
Dave
Nigel Hewitt
26-03-2003, 18:42
Given the original post and the DOs attitude , I see no reason to give him that coutesy. If he hadn't that attitude, this matter would never have come up.
Never sink to somebody else's level especially if you don't approve of them. Being the good guy leaves a nice smug feeling that no petty revenge can match.
nigelH
:=Given the original post and the DOs attitude , I see no reason to give him that coutesy. If he hadn't that attitude, this matter would never have come up.
Never sink to somebody else's level especially if you don't approve of them. Being the good guy leaves a nice smug feeling that no petty revenge can match.
nigelH
true, but I would also see no reason to tell a DO per se. If I was chatting in the pub to someone who happened to be the DO, I might well tell them in conversation what I was doing, but I would be telling the person rather than that person as DO and I wouldn't be looking for their blessing/permission as DO.
I wouldn't go out of my way to tell a DO as such
Dave
I think quite a few of you are missing the point.
He has done 250 dives with his club over the last five years.
That means he has gone on numerous trips, days out, social
events, gone to the pool, been on the boat, got the video and
t-shirt. It is HIS club. He might think the DO's a pratt (I'm
sure we all do), but he still wants to dive with all his club
mates, buddies, etc.
So can we think of ways to sort this without leaving the club
or gettting the DO pi**ed off.
After all he was democracticly elected by the majority of club
members who must all be fully aware of what goes on.
TerryH
Andy Wade
26-03-2003, 23:43
I think quite a few of you are missing the point.
He has done 250 dives with his club over the last five years.
That means he has gone on numerous trips, days out, social
events, gone to the pool, been on the boat, got the video and
t-shirt. It is HIS club. He might think the DO's a pratt (I'm
sure we all do), but he still wants to dive with all his club
mates, buddies, etc.
So can we think of ways to sort this without leaving the club
or gettting the DO pi**ed off.
After all he was democracticly elected by the majority of club
members who must all be fully aware of what goes on.
You're right of course. It is HIS club, and he shouldn't have to leave to get what he seems to have earned already.
The only advice I can offer is to speak to the DO direct, preferably with the Chairperson in attendance.
This may turn into a dispute with the DO and it's really a job for the Chairperson to solve IMHO.
If he doesn't get any joy he should apply to the Chairperson for an Emergency General Meeting and have the question tabled as to why someone with this depth of experience and all boxes signed, hasn't been signed up by the DO.
On the face of it, it seems like a case of 'blackballing', which I've raised before on these fora. (see link below)
If all this fails, then I'm afraid he's going to have to bite the bullet and contact the Regional coaching team for help.
It will all certainly cause a lot of bad feeling in his branch, and he will have to decide whether or not it is going to be worth fighting for.
michael smith
27-03-2003, 13:15
Hello, as a member of the Regional Coaching team, I would ask that if anyone finds themselves in a similiar position don't feel that your last option is to ask for help from us. We can assist in helping to resolve the situation before lines are drawn within a branch.
Regards Mike
Andy Wade
27-03-2003, 16:00
Hello, as a member of the Regional Coaching team, I would ask that if anyone finds themselves in a similiar position don't feel that your last option is to ask for help from us. We can assist in helping to resolve the situation before lines are drawn within a branch.
Of course.
I didn't really mean it as a last resort, just that I think he would be better off discussing it first with his DO and Chairperson in branch, after all, his DO may just say "Oop's I'm sorry" and sign him up.
You never know.
I guess if it can't be solved pretty quickly in branch, then the next step would be to contact the Coaching team don't you think?
Although I imagine that in some cases this might end up being the end of it one way or another....
It is a very tricky situation going up against a DO who on the face of it seems to be a bit dictatorial. 250 dives is a lot of dives to not be a Sports Diver, particularly if he's had all the relevant boxes signed.
He should be a Dive Leader well on his way to Advanced in my opinion, it looks like a waste of talent to me.
If it isn't solved quite soon, and amicably at that, then someone might end up leaving the branch because of bad feeling.
The DO rightly or wrongly probably won't appreciate his authority being undermined and may make life unbearable for this would be Sports Diver, which is why I think the first step is to help the DO save face by keeping it between the three people at first. And if there's no joy from that, then take it further.
I'd hope you would agree that to go in with the backing of the Coaching team too soon might be seen as heavy handed and place the DO in an intolerable position with bad consequences for all involved.
Softly softly catchy monkey, so to speak.
I really do hope it all gets sorted out with the minimum of damage to all involved.
.
5 yrs fees etc, no quals, is it any wonder he's thinking of going Padi. Why cant someone high up find out who his DO is and TELL him to sign the poor boy off. I really do feel that he's in a no win situation here. If he gets it done elsewhere he's going to upset this tyranical DO, if he doesnt do it elsewhere he doesnt get to do the course he wants to do.
So someone upsets the DO and he goes to another Club or gives up, big deal, he sounds like a complete liability anyway.
Adam has averaged 50 dives per yr. surely that says something. If he has to leave the Branch and cant dive with his mates he might well give up the sport he obviously loves.
Matt
michael smith
28-03-2003, 13:36
Hello, no offence taken, like many who have read this thread, having been a DO myself I am amazed that this chap has gone through this situation for so long. From the earlier mails, I read that most of the drills were done, there where a couple to be done. Could Adam ask his DO, what he needs to do to be signed off. If what he is asked to do is part of the Sport Diver programme, which will be the old sports diver he started, then I would suggest do them and then there is no reason for the DO to withhold his signature. If however the DO dosen't explain what is required, the training required is outside of BS-AC's training requirements for Sport Diver, or he still doesn't sign off, please contact your coach.
Regards Mike
Regards Mike
> 5 yrs fees etc, no quals, is it any wonder he's thinking of
> going Padi.
There's nothing in his post that says he's thinking of going PADI. He talked about going to a school.
> Why cant someone high up find out who his DO is and TELL him
> to sign the poor boy off.
There's a variety of reasons, including :-
- probable DPA contravention
- he hasn't asked anyone to.
A number of us have been rather surprised at the situation, but ATEOTD it's up to Adam how it gets resolved. He's been offered help - it would be wrong for anyone to take any action until he decides how he wants to play it.
> I really do feel that he's in a no win situation here. If he
> gets it done elsewhere he's going to upset this tyranical
> DO, if he doesnt do it elsewhere he doesnt get to do the
> course he wants to do.
That's entirely possible, and Adam has stated that he wants to continue diving with this lot. So we don't want to go upsetting the DO without his say-so...
> So someone upsets the DO and he goes to another Club or gives
> up, big deal, he sounds like a complete liability anyway.
That's not the problem; upsetting the DO is more likely to end up with someone else changing branch...
> If he has to leave the Branch and cant dive with his mates he
> might well give up the sport he obviously loves.
No, not at all. If he has to find another branch, he has to find another branch - that's how branches evolve. Giving up the sport would be like giving up driving because you've had a row with your local mechanic...
Vic.
> 5 yrs fees etc, no quals, is it any wonder he's thinking of
> going Padi.
There's nothing in his post that says he's thinking of going PADI. He talked about going to a school.
His second post stated "I therefore intend to circumvent the problem and if I can not do this via Sports Diver at a school (talking to the school involved it appears that I can) will do the corresponding PADI courses."
so he is thinking of going Padi
No, not at all. If he has to find another branch, he has to find another branch - that's how branches evolve. Giving up the sport would be like giving up driving because you've had a row with your local mechanic...
Vic.
Not really Vic, it is very difficult to be mobile if one gives up driving, it is quite possible to give up a Sport and still be happy if all you get from the Sport is aggro and tedium.
Matt
> His second post stated "I therefore intend to circumvent the
> problem and if I can not do this via Sports Diver at a school
> (talking to the school involved it appears that I can) will
> do the corresponding PADI courses."
>
> so he is thinking of going Padi
*If* he can't do this via a school.
Which he can.
So he's not thinking of going PADI.
> Not really Vic, it is very difficult to be mobile if one
> gives up driving
Not at all. There are many ways of getting around. Nevertheless, giving up driving would be just as pointless an exercise as giving up diving, so that's rather moot, isn't it?
> it is quite possible to give up a Sport and still be happy if
> all you get from the Sport is aggro and tedium.
Seeing as how the guy has been doing it for 5 years, somewhow I suspect he might get a little out of it despite the current situation...
Vic.
Paul Oliver
30-03-2003, 00:44
Nigal
You are taliking rubbish but thats up to you. 4 years a member and no qualification says to me you have more money than sence. No doubt you talk a good talk about being a diver, well good for you.
This guy who started the posts has done enough dives to be a FCD and NI. I have major problems with BS and thats what he is coming out with or sufering from.
Eather way it is the type of BS that non BSAC members post, many of whome love to talk about branches that do not progress members.
I have a problem with anyone who claims to have done 250 dives in 5 years and does not have a qualification. He has done more dives than me and i am an AD, OWI and DO of a very active branch.
I think this whole post is BS. If its not the DO needs to be sacked for draging BSAC down to the levels that many critics would like to put and keep it.
Paul
Paul Oliver
30-03-2003, 00:58
Dave
I have read this thread all the way through and still think it is BS. I have read the original post and the follow ups and stand by my comments.
Maybe it is acceptance of this BS that is a factor in BSAC membership dropping to below 40K last year from its high of 50k a few years ago.
This guy claims to have done enough dives to be a FCD and NI, but has gained no qualification. The blame is his DO's? No way can a branch survive like that. We run ours as a social club, but with a buisness plan and mentality because we would not survive otherwise.
We have a PADI School up the road from us who we compete against, and i think we are winning. We offer a service for members. If i have not got a new member up to SD Qual in 6 months i have failed as DO. I would have to discount Swimming Pool Queens and Plastic divers from that.
If someone needs to do training i will be there. If they fail to turn up though i will be hard to get out a second time.
Paul
Andy Nye
30-03-2003, 07:53
To All,
Just to let you know, i'm behind Paul on this one.
Knowing Paul and his club,although i have never dived with them, I KNOW for fact that they are diving in the channel at every possible chance. Being a member of the Dover Branch,i do see at lot of them.
By the way, i did over 250 dives last year ( Jan 02 - Dec 02 ),Didn't get any quailifications during that year,come to think of it in past 3 years apart from HSE First Aid.
Andy
Commercial diver
Nigel Hewitt
30-03-2003, 10:45
You are taliking rubbish but thats up to you. 4 years a member and no qualification says to me you have more money than sence. No doubt you talk a good talk about being a diver, well good for you.
I have other qualifications. A dive club is people to dive with and I think mine is rather good for that. I don't see a need for further qualifications as the BSAC path is mainly about progression to marshalling and instructing grades so I will pay my subs as my share of the costs of maintaining the boats and branch and just dive.
This guy who started the posts has done enough dives to be a FCD and NI. I have major problems with BS and thats what he is coming out with or sufering from.
We have only one post to go from. We may be being trolled or there may be other good reasons why the DO is unhappy with him.
Eather way it is the type of BS that non BSAC members post, many of whome love to talk about branches that do not progress members.
*shrug* As I said I've been a BSAC member for many years and I have not been pressured to *progress* but I see everybody who wants to go forward being actively encouraged and supported. I think I have a good branch. I suspect that this guy has a bunch of friends he dives with and his diving is outside the training structure.
There is something missing. I just don't believe the image of a DO I see here. A guy like that just would not want the job or, alternativly, the TO would have strangled him years ago.
nigelH
> No doubt you talk a good talk about being a diver, well good
> for you.
As someone who's met Nigel, I can assure you he can do more than just talk about it...
> This guy who started the posts has done enough dives to be a
> FCD and NI.
This line implies quite heavily that this post is a troll; nevertheless, I'll bite.
250 dives is not an awful lot of experience. I'm not sure off-hand of the prerequisites for FCD or NI, but I for one would not feel happy about having FCDs with that little amount of diving under their belts...
> Eather way it is the type of BS that non BSAC members post,
Nigel is a BSAC member.
> He has done more dives than me
This says rather more about you than anyone else. And probably more that you really wanted it to...
Vic.
Keith Lawrence(BSAC)
30-03-2003, 11:56
That was TOTALLY uncalled for Paul, if you can't make a point without insulting people you do not know (I know Nigel personally BTW) then don't make it. Discuss the issues by all means, but don't make it personal and start insulting people.
As a point of interest I can find no record on our systems that match the original poster. It would be appreciated if the original poster would email me a BSAC Membership number.
Regards
Keith L
Nice to see that you were voted in as DO on your obvious tact
and diplomacy skills.
Surprising that as AD, OWI & DO you havnt gained enough
knowledege of divers & diving to make objective statements!
Heres a couple of pointers.
a) Making comparisons with your own club is largely irrelevant,
all clubs are not the same.
b) Many of us just want to go diving and are not badge
collectors.
Both you and this rogue DO, have been democraticly elected.
However I see no difference in your indiffrence and aggressive
attitude to that of a DO who sets a benchmark of 250 dives.
Look at the other posts. You will notice many from other DO's
and Instructors who rather than belate the individual have
(including myself) offered to help train him.
Says a lot more about you then AD, OWI, DO & 250 dives!
TerryH
Paul Oliver
30-03-2003, 18:10
Vic
You can get to AD with 49 dives (ish), Plus 100 from AD to FCD.
Obviously NI would entail a lot of traning dives. I never implied Nigel was not a BSAC member.
The number of dives i have done is i feel rather irrelivant, its the conditions and relative experience. I also don't bother logging a lot.
I encourage people to train, you cannot dive the majority of our dives unless you are a sport diver. I encourage them by providing the training (like 4 hours worth today).
Regards
Paul
Paul Oliver
30-03-2003, 18:16
Keith
OK point taken, i was irritated by the shrug and indifference that comes accross as someone who also is happy to go along with the frequent critisism of BSAC branches that do not progress members skills.
Or am i the only person to note the falling club membership levels in an ever expanding sport?
Regards
Paul
> You can get to AD with 49 dives (ish), Plus 100 from AD to
> FCD.
FCD is supposed to have an increased level of knowledge and experience over yer average diver. Chances of passing FCD with the minimum prerequisite? Nada. You don't get that increased knowledge and experience without going diving - *lots*.
A FCD with just 250 dives would be a joke.
> The number of dives i have done is i feel rather irrelivant,
So do I...
> I also don't bother logging a lot.
So are you now telling us you've got more dives than that? Your previous statement said nothing about logging - you said you'd done less than 250 dives. Make your mind up...
> I encourage people to train, you cannot dive the majority of
> our dives unless you are a sport diver.
That's never been in question; nevertheless, it is entirely possible to be in the position of being a BSAC member and having never taken a BSAC course, but still being perfectly competent to do the dives. Nigel is a case in point - he has a similar qualification level to mine, but no BSAC qualis at all. I'd dive with him any time [In fact, Nigel, give me a shout when your unit comes back ;-)]
> I encourage them by providing the training (like 4 hours
> worth today).
And all those valiant efforts are rendered valueless by your need to rant at someone who was entirely correct in what he posted. You might like to consider an apology at this point...
Vic.
Paul Oliver
30-03-2003, 18:38
Terry
Comparing me to i beleve this imaginary DO is somwhat anoying as you know nothing about me and how i do things.
I seem to have noticed you being very aggressive in many of your comments in the past as well, i notice a few disagreeing with you as well. No doubt you are as worried about that as i am.
Comparisons of clubs is quite relevant i feel as we are all tared with the same brush in many other forums and discussions.
I have only pushed on from DL to enable me to do more for my branch, (i don't even like instructing as it was my job (Not Dive instructing) for 20 years).
My branch was not doing enough diving for me, so i decided to get the qualifications to take the dive's out. Last year our DO was unable to do much and his assistant broke his leg, so i took on the role to the branches satisfaction. I was unanimously voted in, with a large contingent of new members turning up specifically to vote me in. If they are unhappy i will gladly step down.
I spent yesterday filling bottles and repairing boats, today teaching in a lake, concurrently i am sorting out a Boat Handling course for the regional coaching team and organising 36 divers going to Weymouth.
I do not expect any thanks and i am doing it off my own back, but i get very irritated with people tarring BSAC with one brush.
No doubt you do even more off your own back, thats what many active members are about.
Regards
Paul
Paul Oliver
30-03-2003, 19:18
Vic
So if you are a BSAC member diving on other agencies qualifications then surly a SALT table has been used and a crossover certificate issued. So that is a BSAC qualification i think? This would also apply to Nigel i think?
FCD - "Less than 250 dives a joke". Thats the standards that are set, if you add on more requirements i.e. 500 dives is that not doing the same as this imaginary DO? If a qualification is not achevable within the training peramiters and requirements then something needs to be changed, prime example ScotSAC and their FCD qualification that had a glich and was not achievable. Bit like SD in some branches maybe?
Regards
Paul
> FCD - "Less than 250 dives a joke".
Yes.
> Thats the standards that are set, if you add on more
> requirements i.e. 500 dives is that not doing the same as
> this imaginary DO?
No-one's adding more requirements.
But 250 dives is not sufficient to be a FCD; one must also have the appropriate experience, knowledge, and ability.
That does not come from a mere 250 dives.
> If a qualification is not achevable within the training
> peramiters and requirements then something needs to be
> changed
250 dives is not "the training peramiters and requirements"; it is (approximately) one of the prerequisites. It is not the sum of the qualification.
Vic.
Paul Oliver
30-03-2003, 21:39
Vic
Read your QRB (if you have one)and count the dives if necessary.
Its also in a recent Dive issue.
You can start the course as an AD with 100 dives since qualifying as an AD with ERD or equivilent dive depth experience (20 in deeper than 30m), Chartwork and Position Fixing SDC, Diver Rescue Specialist and Diver Cox'n.
I would not expect more than 6 dives over the assesment weekend the 3 on ERD and any on Advanced Lifesaver etc would be prior so 49 + 100 + 6 = 155.
That is the required dive experience standard - Not what you think, so dont tell me about reading the post when you are argueing against black and white requirements. This appears to crop up further down as well with your posts.
Plus the aim of FCD is to have a high level of diving skills and knowledge, can organise groups of divers to achieve specific aims or objectives, organise and lead major diving expeditions, and contribute to BSAC's development at National, Regional and Branch level. So diving knowledge and experience is very important but so is the written exercise on an exped and the theory knowledge which does not nesesarily relate to practical skills.
The dive numbers to me are irrelivant. 100 out of Dover or 250 in lakes and warm clear water - Which will be harder and more benificial in experience? 5 Dives raising a prop off a Sub in 30m, strong currents and 1m vis or 25 swimming with Rays?
Regards and unrepentant
Paul
Paul Oliver
30-03-2003, 21:43
Andy
Thanks mate, what do you recon for gaining experience then 100 out of Dover or 250 largly warm clear water ones?
Regards
Paul
> Read your QRB (if you have one)and count the dives if
> necessary.
Conversely, you could apply a little bit of grey matter (if you have any).
You are permitted to start FCD training with less then 250 dives, that is a given. No-one is arguing you can't so directing nyone to a QRB is irrelevant and misleading.
FCD is not a trivial qualification, I'm sure you'll agree.
So regardless of the prerequisites for *STARTING* the training, , you'll need significant experience to *ACHIEVE* FCD.
250 dives is enough to *START* training for FCD, as you've so brilliantly surmised.
250 dives is not very much diving.
Chances of this amount of diving resulting in sufficient knowledge, experience, and ability to *ACHIEVE* FCD? None. It ain't going to happen.
I reiterate; FCD at 250 dives would be a joke. I'm sure those members who have worked so hard for their FCD qualifications would consider them devalued if the qualification were achievable at such ridiculously low levels.
> You can start the course as an AD with 100 dives since
> qualifying as an AD
Yes, you can.
Is that the same as achieving the result? Is it hell.
Please understand the duifference between a prerequisite *what is required before you can embark on a course) and an achievement (what is required before you can finish that course). Then you might stop quoting prerequisites at me and start thinking about what FCD actually means. And then you'd realise why FCD @ 250 dives is a joke.
> Plus the aim of FCD is to have a high level of diving skills
> and knowledge
Exactly. A high level of diving skills and knowledge. Not someone who's barely wet behind the ears.
> The dive numbers to me are irrelivant. 100 out of Dover or
> 250 in lakes and warm clear water - Which will be harder and
> more benificial in experience?
Neither is sufficient to achieve a "high level of diving skills and knowledge".
Vic.
Andy Wade
30-03-2003, 23:55
The dive numbers to me are irrelivant. 100 out of Dover or 250 in lakes and warm clear water - Which will be harder and more benificial in experience? 5 Dives raising a prop off a Sub in 30m, strong currents and 1m vis or 25 swimming with Rays?
Hello Paul,
I've just noticed your line above and wanted to ask this question, have you recently been raising a propellor off a submarine?
.
Paul Oliver
31-03-2003, 00:05
Vic
You are talking total rubbish and appear to be the one with the lack of grey matter. You are blatently ignoring what is required to achieve a qualification.
At the DOC there was no mention on the FCD presentation by Geof Hyde of having to have a far higher level of knowledge and ability than the course start standard / prerequisit.
You can look at the prerequisit standards for any course and say - "Thats not good enough" but people pass and pass easily if they have the ability. Why have a start standard if it aint good enough to pass the course with a suitable level of application.
We have plenty of SD in our club some now ADI with the bare minimum of dives because they have mastered the required standard. Nothing more and to the required level of competence.
I am selective about who they teach and what, but they have met BSAC's standards, not those of some prat who thinks his standards are far better.
If your skills are up to standard they are up to standard. I am stateing this as a very experienced instructor in training the trainer. I used to train people in weapon skills that were far harder to master than diving skills.
So how many dives to master the skills? Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder, what did you screw up on?
Having seen the presentation of certs at the last DOC and having a good idea of the diving standards of several recieving the award i would never de-value it, but along with BSAC's approach i would hope to avoid it being seen as a near impossibility beyond the horizon.
Its an achievable but under persued qualification is the impression i came away with, but not a Holy Grail.
Your prerequisit argument is rubbish, if you look at the course content, there is a lot of assesment but not to much training. Why have a prerequisit standard if it is not possible to achieve the result?
Paul
Paul Oliver
31-03-2003, 00:15
Andy
Of course not that would be politically incorrect, it was done some time ago when i was a trainee DL. It has been declaired to the ROW and is on Public display.
It has also helped to solve a sub mystery (UB78) and open up another.
Regards
Paul
PS I never took a lobster off it eather.
Andy Nye
31-03-2003, 00:28
Thanks mate, what do you recon for gaining experience then 100 out of Dover or 250 largly warm clear water ones?
If you can dive out of Dover,and do around 50 dives on your own , then you can dive ANYWHERE in the world.Some that has dived 250 in clear warm water and says they are a diver,well " I'll s**t myself, and go to the pub, rather than waste me air diving with them in the Straits ".
More to the point is the a**hole instuctors that spend weekends in LAKES,then thinking they know it all,then once at sea, and LOCAL novice looks like a FCD. ( this does not include our mates who are so close to stoney, but at least they are getting wet, playing and enjoying )
Paul, you know me, I have been around a long time, your club, our club and even the animal have always been at hand nearly every weekend,if it wasn't for US, the coastguards / port control would be really p'ed of with divers by now.
How many times we chased ribs , coz they don't know harbour laws.?
how many ribs got cox's under 16 years old.?
how many time we help divers by letting them use our shots , coz they can't find wrecks. ?
how many time are we snubbed for being loacls , and when trying to be polite you get the FRO look.?
yeah, me go for the local 100 dives matey.
DON'T GET DRAGGED DOWN BY THIS TOPIC , mate,,,, it's not ya style.
> You are talking total rubbish and appear to be the one with
> the lack of grey matter.
Nice to see a logically-constructed argument...
> You are blatently ignoring what is required to achieve a
> qualification.
No, I'm not. See later...
> At the DOC there was no mention on the FCD presentation by
> Geof Hyde of having to have a far higher level of knowledge
> and ability than the course start standard / prerequisit.
Perhaps - but I was quoting *YOUR* words. *Yours*, not mine, not Geoff Hyde's. From <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/949.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/949.html</a> .
Now if you want to claim that you were talking cobblers, then that's up to you, but it probably won't really help your argument.
> You can look at the prerequisit standards for any course and
> say - "Thats not good enough" but people pass and pass easily
> if they have the ability.
Yes.
Now look up the meaning of the word "prerequisite".
Hint: It doesn't nmean the standard you have to achieve to pass the course.
> Why have a start standard if it aint good enough to pass the
> course with a suitable level of application.
What's the prerequisite for Ocean Diver (or any entry-level course)?
Is that a sufficient level of ability to be awarded the qualification?
> I am selective about who they teach and what, but they have
> met BSAC's standards, not those of some prat who thinks his
> standards are far better.
That's all well and good. Does BSAC tell yuo to award FCD to anyone who's managed 250 dives? Thought not.
> So how many dives to master the skills?
That's not a question with an answer. It takes as long as it takes. I've yet to see *anyone* with a mere 250 dives that I'd consider a FCD...
> Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder
Nope. I just dislike muppets who think they have the answers when they've yet to find the questions...
> what did you screw up on?
Attempting a rational argument with certain provocateurs within this thread, it would appear...
> Your prerequisit argument is rubbish
This is because you do not understand it. Try discriminating between the words "prerequisite" and " requirement", and you'll stand some chance. Good hunting!
Vic.
Comparing me to i beleve this imaginary DO is somwhat anoying as you know nothing about me and how i do things.
Seems I know enough to make the destinction between a DO that
wants to help divers and one who wants to belittle them.
I seem to have noticed you being very aggressive in many of your comments in the past as well, i notice a few disagreeing with you as well. No doubt you are as worried about that as i am.
Like most of us I am passionate about my choosen Sport. I am
wrong as much as I am right and prepared to admit (or
apologise) if I am wrong.
Comparisons of clubs is quite relevant i feel as we are all tared with the same brush in many other forums and discussions.
Wrong. I help run a Uni club. We are a BSAC special branch,
and have particular rules and regs which are unique to us and
are even different to other Uni clubs making comparisons
difficult.
I have only pushed on from DL to enable me to do more for my branch, (i don't even like instructing as it was my job (Not Dive instructing) for 20 years).
My branch was not doing enough diving for me, so i decided to get the qualifications to take the dive's out. Last year our DO was unable to do much and his assistant broke his leg, so i took on the role to the branches satisfaction. I was unanimously voted in, with a large contingent of new members turning up specifically to vote me in. If they are unhappy i will gladly step down.
I spent yesterday filling bottles and repairing boats, today teaching in a lake, concurrently i am sorting out a Boat Handling course for the regional coaching team and organising 36 divers going to Weymouth.
I do not expect any thanks and i am doing it off my own back, but i get very irritated with people tarring BSAC with one brush.
No doubt you do even more off your own back, thats what many active members are about.
I could list what I've done this week for my club, but I dont
think I do any more than a whole stack of volunteers who have
also spent there Sat/Sun and weekday evenings doing club
business. There will always be somebody who works harder.
We all have a chip on our shoulder when it comes to BSAC. Those
at HQ, committee members and officers have a pretty thick skin
and can take it. But just maybe someone who has done 250 dives
and hasnt complained, may be a bit shy. And your response?
Simpathetic DO as per the Branch Officers Handbook?
Hardly.
TerryH
PS: First class diver with only 250 dives? In your dreams!
Andy Wade
31-03-2003, 07:49
Of course not that would be politically incorrect, it was done some time ago when i was a trainee DL. It has been declaired to the ROW and is on Public display.
It has also helped to solve a sub mystery (UB78) and open up another.
Thanks for that Paul, where is it on display? I wouldn't mind seeing it next time I'm down the south coast.
I'm assuming it's a U-boat propellor and not a Submarine propellor. There is a difference, if only in terminology.
PS I never took a lobster off it eather.
A lobster?
I might have had that one myself given the chance. Just for personal consumption of course.
;-)
.
iainmsmith
31-03-2003, 12:29
So if you are a BSAC member diving on other agencies qualifications then surly a SALT table has been used and a crossover certificate issued. So that is a BSAC qualification i think?
Incorrect. From the SALT Administration documents, I quote:
"The SALT acknowledges the fact that the member has been trained to a standard known to be _similar_ to the appropriate BSAC qualification." [emphasis as per original document]
"With this SALT Certificate, the new member may take part in dives appropriate to that particular grade of BSAC diver"
There is nothing that I can find in the SALT administration documents to suggest that the award of a SALT in any way confers a BSAC qualification on the recipient.
Iain
:=So if you are a BSAC member diving on other agencies qualifications then surly a SALT table has been used and a crossover certificate issued. So that is a BSAC qualification i think?
Incorrect. From the SALT Administration documents, I quote:
"The SALT acknowledges the fact that the member has been trained to a standard known to be _similar_ to the appropriate BSAC qualification." [emphasis as per original document]
"With this SALT Certificate, the new member may take part in dives appropriate to that particular grade of BSAC diver"
There is nothing that I can find in the SALT administration documents to suggest that the award of a SALT in any way confers a BSAC qualification on the recipient.
Iain
Got to agree. To quote directly from my TDI advanced nitrox SALT sticker "BSAC considers that this training achieves the same objectives as the BSAC Skills development course in advanced nitrox diver and will acept it accordingly." . Doesn't say anywhere I've now got a BSAC nitrox qualification.
Stu.
Steve Walker
31-03-2003, 15:22
:=:=So if you are a BSAC member diving on other agencies qualifications then surly a SALT table has been used and a crossover certificate issued. So that is a BSAC qualification i think?
:=
:=Incorrect. From the SALT Administration documents, I quote:
:=
:="The SALT acknowledges the fact that the member has been trained to a standard known to be _similar_ to the appropriate BSAC qualification." [emphasis as per original document]
:=
:="With this SALT Certificate, the new member may take part in dives appropriate to that particular grade of BSAC diver"
:=
:=There is nothing that I can find in the SALT administration documents to suggest that the award of a SALT in any way confers a BSAC qualification on the recipient.
:=
:=Iain
Got to agree. To quote directly from my TDI advanced nitrox SALT sticker "BSAC considers that this training achieves the same objectives as the BSAC Skills development course in advanced nitrox diver and will acept it accordingly." . Doesn't say anywhere I've now got a BSAC nitrox qualification.
Stu.
But your DO can very easily order a SALT cert for you which goes into the QRB in the appropriate place and surely this "officially" confers that level of BSAC qualification on that diver.
Regards
Steve
But your DO can very easily order a SALT cert for you which goes into the QRB in the appropriate place and surely this "officially" confers that level of BSAC qualification on that diver.
Regards
Steve
Nope - its an equivalency not a qualification.
For a SALT You have not done any BSAC training, you have not done any BSAC assessments therefore there is no qualification, just a statement that you can be treated the same as someone with a specific qualification
Pete
Paul Oliver
31-03-2003, 19:04
Hi Andy
Its at HBAA:-
<a href="http://www.sixplus.co.uk/divers/hernebay.htm" >http://www.sixplus.co.uk/divers/hernebay.htm</a>
It may well proberably be in Whitstable meuseum later in the year as part of the 50 years of BSAC display we are putting together.
Regards
Paul
Paul Oliver
31-03-2003, 19:58
Andy
Thanks mate your point is taken.
Regards
Paul
Paul Oliver
31-03-2003, 23:37
Vic
I canot be bothered with you any more, you have based your objections on "Your view of a FCD" and have made no responce based on what is required as laid down by BSAC.
Maybe we could discuss this at the AGM, DOC or Dive Show when you can insult me to my face.
Edit:-
I have also now been briefed on you elswhere, have you got the bottle to talk to me like that face to face? I suspect not you strike me as the type of worm that skulks behind their monitor?
How brave, maybe one day.
Eagerly in anticipation
Paul
Mike Halligan
31-03-2003, 23:39
But your DO can very easily order a SALT cert for you which goes into the QRB in the appropriate place and surely this "officially" confers that level of BSAC qualification on that diver.
Steve,
Not quite. Each DO was sent an initial stock of SALT overlays to replace QRB qualification pages with formal acknowledgement of training perceived to be equivalent, certification of which (NB: not proof) had been produced on the day of signature. Unlike the QRB, the overlays are not restricted stock, the DO can ring up and obtain as many as desired. (Yes, I was an ADO at the launch of SALT and in fact had to use it within days.)
However, the DO did not (by signing a SALT overlay or later a higher qualification) ever grant that qualification. It was not earned. Qualification per se could be obtained only by completion of the prescribed course of BSAC training.
IMHO, it was not recognised widely enough at the outset that SALT applied only when the individual elected to commence training for the next diving grade. SALT was not necessary or appropriate on arrival in a Branch with alternative training certification in one's sticky paw, i.e. one may arrive as a PADI DM and be deemed to be DL + some SDCs equivalence for marshaling purposes, but one is not DL and one has not those SDCs. (However, the SDC certification may be bought from BSAC HQ upon production of suitable alternative certification.)
I presume, because I have no direct experience and therefore stand to be corrected, that those who wish to take a SDC and have no QRB are expected to buy a QRB and have SALT endorsement added before they could join in. (If so, then personally I would return to my former agency for equivalent training and save the bother/expense.)
I use the past tense because there was a revision which didn't find its way onto the BSAC website - the links continued to point to the old information - and the announcement went to Membership Secs, so missed many DOs, TOs and instructors. By then, after almost 3 yrs fighting for audience as ADO, I had lost the will to live anyway.
HTH,
Mike
Paul Oliver
31-03-2003, 23:44
Terry
As i said before you know nothing of me, but its your opinion and thats fine as i have no interest in it.
I actually pay a lot of attention to the way Uni Clubs do things as Canterbury Uni don't have a branch anymore and guess where the students come to for their training.
We try hard to provide a service without being ripped off. We even offer a student rate that has not gone down too well with the unemployed, low wage earners or our very vocal contingent of brickies.
Paul
Paul Oliver
31-03-2003, 23:47
Andy
By the way your probably not interested but they were dives 18-22 in my logbook.
Regards
Paul
Paul Oliver
31-03-2003, 23:49
Guys
Thank you for pointing that out, a pity those diving on it could not do that.
Regards
Paul
Paul Oliver
01-04-2003, 00:05
Mike
Having read the BOH (Steve, thanks for the tip) on this point since it was pointed out by Iain my understanding now is that if you want to join there is no requirement but the diving crossover levels are relative to the diving you/they can do.
If you want to train then it is required.
Why go back to another agency if you only need to buy a log book and get a SALT Cert from the DO? BSAC courses are generally so much cheaper you will still be quids in, unless that is not a factor.
Regards
Paul
Paul Oliver
01-04-2003, 01:49
Vic
You sound like a real expert in all matters diving, how about you come for a dive out of Dover? impart some of your experience and knowledge. I'll give you a freebee, no fuel costs and i'll take you too a wreck comparable to your diving experience?
You can choose the depth and degree of difficulty!
Have to be between 25m and 35m though unless you want to do the lanes say the Varne down to 60m. Couple of Subs out there, not dived by many since 1918.
Or do you just talk the talk? You give me that impression cant think why?
Regards
Paul
Andy Nye
01-04-2003, 02:07
You sound like a real expert in all matters diving, how about you come for a dive out of Dover?
** don't say that PAUL ,,,,,,, we get enought ********* out of here as it is,, ****
impart some of your experience and knowledge.
** you reckon ??? ;-( **
I'll give you a freebee, no fuel costs and i'll take you too a wreck comparable to your diving experience?
** A real DIVER wouldn't moan at the costs,,, how many do you hear moaning down here after a dive ? NONE **
You can choose the depth and degree of difficulty!
*** 10 mts , Langdon bay,,,,,, i'll take him , not worth starting the Animals engine for that one ****
Have to be between 25m and 35m though unless you want to do the lanes say the Varne down to 60m. Couple of Subs out there, not dived by many since 1918.
*** can i come , i need a laugh ,,,, ***
Or do you just talk the talk? You give me that impression cant think why?
** he is giving everyone i spoke to that impression as well **
Regards
Paul
&
ANdy
DIVE DOVER, DIVE DEEP, DIVE DANGEROUSLY...
As i said before you know nothing of me, but its your opinion and thats fine as i have no interest in it.
Seems you had enough "interest" to be annoyed when I compared
you to the other DO!
TerryH
Vic
I canot be bothered with you any more, you have based your objections on "Your view of a FCD" and have made no responce based on what is required as laid down by BSAC.
Yes he did. You are the one confusing pre-requisites and requisites.
In order to take the First Class Diver exam there are pre-requisites such as 100 Dives, 3 years continuous membership, DIver Rescue Specialist and Diver Coxswain.
These are the qualifications/experience which are required to be allowed to take the exam; you would then have to pass the theory and practical exams. As pointed out, someone with the minimum number of dives is unlikely to have had enough experience to pass the practical element of the course ( though they could do ).
Comparing with other qualifications....
To take the Advanced Lifesaver Exam there is a pre-requisite to have the lifesaver award; i.e. you cannot take the Advanced exam unless you have already passed the lifesaver exam. To get the lifesaver award you need to meet the requisite standard on the exam
Dave
I wasn't going to bother with this, but anyway...
> Maybe we could discuss this at the AGM, DOC or Dive Show when
> you can insult me to my face.
Be happy to.
> I have also now been briefed on you elswhere
Really? Very few people actually know who I am. Somehow, I suspect you've been "briefed" by someone who doesn't know what he's talking about...
> have you got the bottle to talk to me like that face to face?
Oh yes.
> I suspect not you strike me as the type of worm that skulks
> behind their monitor?
Then you really haven't got a clue who I am, have you?
Now go evolve into something that doesn't feel the need to threaten when outwitted by a stuffed iguana. Or at least make your threats effective.
Vic.
> You sound like a real expert in all matters diving
Then you've no idea what expertise is, do you?
That I appear to know more than you is hardly indication of more than basic sentience.
> how about you come for a dive out of Dover?
Dover? Oh, if you must.
> Have to be between 25m and 35m though unless you want to do
> the lanes say the Varne down to 60m.
I don't know the area - do you mean the shipping lanes? Is that a good diea.
> Or do you just talk the talk?
I walk the walk. Do you?
> You give me that impression cant think why?
Because you're incapable of determining what someone's actually saying...
Vic.
Andy Nye
04-04-2003, 14:47
Have to be between 25m and 35m though unless you want to do the lanes say the Varne down to 60m.
*** This was a offer of a dive mate, and a FREE one.Don't you like to mingle with others ? , or have you got that I'M BETTER THAN you COMPLEX,,,***
I don't know the area - do you mean the shipping lanes? Is that a good idea.
*** It's right on the edge of the SW lane,because of a bank there, the large stuff keeps away, all the lane markings there on a chart is for NAVIGATION to point you in right direction to CS 4 buoy, so really just a straight line ***
> This was a offer of a dive mate, and a FREE one.
...Which I accepted. What's your problem, exactly?
> Don't you like to mingle with others ?
Indeed I do, which is why I accepted the offer.
> , or have you got that I'M BETTER THAN you COMPLEX,,,***
Not at all. If I did, I wouldn't have accepted the offer.
> *** It's right on the edge of the SW lane,because of a bank
> there, the large stuff keeps away, all the lane markings
> there on a chart is for NAVIGATION to point you in right
> direction to CS 4 buoy, so really just a straight line ***
Thankyou. That's what I was after.
What I wasn't after was abuse for refusing a dive - because I didn't, I accepted the offer.
Vic.
John Williams
04-04-2003, 15:36
If he doesn't get any joy he should apply to the Chairperson for an Emergency General Meeting and have the question tabled as to why someone with this depth of experience and all boxes signed, hasn't been signed up by the DO.
But here's the key factor Andy!
By his own admission he has NOT got all the boxes signed. Neither he nor the branch has any record of him completing his training.
Without such a record signing him up would be wrong!
Not having adequate and adequate records is also wrong - but you cannot add two wrongs together and get a right.
He should have got whoever completed the training to sign his boxes...but he did not.
The ONLY solution is to get someone to sign those boxes...and the only way to get an ethical BSAC instructor to do that will be to repeat the exercises for the two boxes he is missing signatures for.
Then the branch should be asked to review it's training records and ensure that any bad feeloing caused by this incident is not repeated.
John
Keith Lawrence(BSAC)
04-04-2003, 21:06
OK guys, I think that this one has just about run its course. Will you all please BE FRIENDS (I don't care who started it), we're all divers, we're all in the same club. If you must continue bickerring then please take it offline. The next off topic (from the original post) and I'll lock the thread.
Regards
Keith L
Andy Wade
04-04-2003, 22:39
:=If he doesn't get any joy he should apply to the Chairperson for an Emergency General Meeting and have the question tabled as to why someone with this depth of experience and all boxes signed, hasn't been signed up by the DO.
But here's the key factor Andy!
By his own admission he has NOT got all the boxes signed. Neither he nor the branch has any record of him completing his training.
Without such a record signing him up would be wrong!
Not having adequate and adequate records is also wrong - but you cannot add two wrongs together and get a right.
He should have got whoever completed the training to sign his boxes...but he did not.
The ONLY solution is to get someone to sign those boxes...and the only way to get an ethical BSAC instructor to do that will be to repeat the exercises for the two boxes he is missing signatures for.
Then the branch should be asked to review it's training records and ensure that any bad feeloing caused by this incident is not repeated.
Hello John.
May I draw your attention to the following paragraph?
Quoted from Adam's posting here:
<a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/904.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/904.html</a>
"The DO takes the view that the Club is entitled to set higher standards than the BSAC minimum for the award of each qualification and at the time told me he would sign/stamp the qualification when I had more experience. That was five years and 250 dives (mostly logged) ago."
Unquote
This smacks of 'pulling the ladder up' to me.
Hence my suggestion for an EGM, although I'm not sure it would do any good as Adam also states that the DO has support for this system with other senior members in the branch.
And as for bad feeling within a branch, the best way to promote bad feeling is to cheat someone out of a qualification they have earned.
Putting Adam's case aside, how can this DO sanction setting higher standards than BSAC?
.
Paul Oliver
05-04-2003, 00:33
OK Keith
Vic if you are really accepting this offer contact me at <a href="mailto:do@canterburydivers.org.uk">do@canterburydivers.org.uk</a> i will make all the arrangements. I will also co-ordinate with Dover branch and i have a special guest as Mark Chase would like to see you in the water as well.
I would be happy to send you a list of about 300 wrecks to chose from. We have slack at HW+4 hours and at HW-2 Hours on Neap Tides. Please ensure you have a distance line and torch, DSMB and a quality net cutter. A goody bag and lifting bag will also be usefull.
Regards
Paul
PS We have never lost a diver and have had only 1 DCI incident in 35 years.
Paul Oliver
05-04-2003, 00:43
Vic
I am here in the open, you know my branch, my position, my qualifications and what i look like along with my opinion.
[==Flame/Goad element removed : Keith Lawrence==]
In eager anticipation of meeting.
Paul
John Williams
05-04-2003, 09:23
Andy,
In the same veinn...may I quote?
"I joined the club five years ago to learn to dive and to go diving. At the time I completed all of lectures and practical work for Club diver and Sports Diver. All of the boxes are signed except a couple of the Sports Diver open water ones, which were not signed at the time (and the DO now does not remember doing with me)."
Whilst agreeing with your sentiment that the DO should not be modifying BSAC requirements by upping the experience levels thereare two points to be made.
1) Awarding the qualification does not mean that the diver is nec\essarily treated any differently. You can gain your SD inside some calm,walm, still tropical reef in 12m. This does not prepare you from dropping onto a British wreck in 34m in poor viz and a "bit of a run". If the DO explains the need to build experience to do the kind of diving his branch does then this is perfectly acceptable. Someone else has made the point that although the peice of paper should not be witheld...the diver might be well advised to gain further experience (and his DO to require it)
2)If you have not completed (or made a record of completion) the SD syllabus then even with 1000 or 10000 dives you have not completed the course.
However...as usual, what we have here is a breakdown in communication.
If these guys were to talk and come to understand each other's point of view then I'm convinced that gaps could be filled with the minimum of fuss and qualifications awarded.
All the best
John
PS We have never lost a diver and have had only 1 DCI incident in 35 years.
So statisicly, now is the time to be extra careful!
Bit like those signs on building sites. The ones that say
56 days since an accident etc. Safety record or countdown to
another accident?
TerryH
Andy Wade
05-04-2003, 13:10
Andy,
In the same veinn...may I quote?
"I joined the club five years ago to learn to dive and to go diving. At the time I completed all of lectures and practical work for Club diver and Sports Diver. All of the boxes are signed except a couple of the Sports Diver open water ones, which were not signed at the time (and the DO now does not remember doing with me)."
Indeed, I had originally missed this bit about having done these 2 open water requirements, but not having been signed up for them at the time. Most branches would have had some record of it too. Don't they keep dive logs?
I'm not contesting that fact however, I'm more worried about the DO pulling the ladder up.
Whilst agreeing with your sentiment that the DO should not be modifying BSAC requirements by upping the experience levels thereare two points to be made.
1) Awarding the qualification does not mean that the diver is nec\essarily treated any differently. You can gain your SD inside some calm,walm, still tropical reef in 12m. This does not prepare you from dropping onto a British wreck in 34m in poor viz and a "bit of a run". If the DO explains the need to build experience to do the kind of diving his branch does then this is perfectly acceptable. Someone else has made the point that although the peice of paper should not be witheld...the diver might be well advised to gain further experience (and his DO to require it)
Yes, that's a general diving thing within certain branches, and to a point I don't have a problem with ensuring that all divers are capable of diving within the conditions that the branch usually dives in. It is common sense to me.
The problem with is that this DO seems to have made it a requirement before awarding qualifications.
The problem is, where does it stop?
Does this DO then feel that he or she has carte blanche to add whatever they feel like to qualifications?
It is a dangerous road to go down IMHO.
2)If you have not completed (or made a record of completion) the SD syllabus then even with 1000 or 10000 dives you have not completed the course.
Agreed.
However...as usual, what we have here is a breakdown in communication.
If these guys were to talk and come to understand each other's point of view then I'm convinced that gaps could be filled with the minimum of fuss and qualifications awarded.
That's possible, but since Adam has stated that the DO has added things to the qualification levels, then I feel that this DO has already overstepped the mark.
Maybe he should read BSAC articles, doesn't it state that no-one can add or subtract anything from these qualifications?
BSAC sets qualification standards, not individual DO's.
It's possible that there may even be a double standard operating here, Adam does have a lot of dives for a CD, is it possible he might be diving outside his remit because other members don't realise he's not an SD yet?
Were I his DO I'd have been pushing him towards his AD by now, or at least his DL, he's got more potential than just a mere CD with all that experience. (No offence intended to CD's of course)
Paul Oliver
05-04-2003, 23:45
Terry
That is totally pathetic and if you have an issue with me that is fine as i dont like you eather, but you are also impliying that other members of my branch are not up to the HOBBEY
I hope none of my inexperienced divers see your comments in the hope that your rather pathetic dig does not put them off diving.
I would have hoped that with your emphasis on training and building up confidence you would have put a bit of thought into digging at me.
I would hope that you will retract that dig and the implied threat to my trainees, who i incedentally recommed read the postings on this forum for the information they will gain.
I would have expected much more from a supposedly professional instructor.
Paul
Paul Oliver
05-04-2003, 23:56
Guys
You have both covered in a far more diplomatic way than me the exact points i was annoyed about from the start. I still have problems with this whole post as i am still convinced it is a troll.
There are standards and if they are met they are passed, i can train members to OD, but they cannot do our diving as they need to be SD to be legal. We take many inexperienced Sd in and they cope well. But we also brief them well and pair them off with the right level of experience.
Regards
Paul
Andy Wade
06-04-2003, 13:06
Terry
That is totally pathetic and if you have an issue with me that is fine as i dont like you eather, but you are also impliying that other members of my branch are not up to the HOBBEY
I hope none of my inexperienced divers see your comments in the hope that your rather pathetic dig does not put them off diving.
I would have hoped that with your emphasis on training and building up confidence you would have put a bit of thought into digging at me.
I would hope that you will retract that dig and the implied threat to my trainees, who i incedentally recommed read the postings on this forum for the information they will gain.
I would have expected much more from a supposedly professional instructor.
Paul.
Please calm down for goodness sake, stop taking everything so personally.
I think Terry has a point, even going by the law of averages a 100% clean record has a chance of an incident occurring. I didn't read anything like an insult to you into his posting.
If anything, your posting came across as a bit of a boast, lots of us have pretty good safety records, and I personally don't think I'm immune just because I haven't been bent yet.
Pride comes before a fall doesn't it?
Your first posting in this thread was to call the DO in the original posting a very rude name (which I won't repeat), and the moment Terry makes a comment that you construe as a personal slight, you fly off the handle and insult him. If you can't take it, please don't dish it out.
As you mentioned in the discussion between myself and John Williams, you said we had talked about it diplomatically, well, my answer to that is, is there any other way to discuss things?
I think not. If we can't discuss things reasonably and keep it civil, then there's no point even talking.
Even Vic has had his head bitten off and although rumour has it that he has got two heads anyway, I'm sure he didn't warrant as much of the stick as he got.
The problem with writing comments on these fora, is that there is no body language visible, how do you know that Terry wasn't smiling to you as he wrote it?
Please don't assume the worst. Assume the best and you'll have much more fun contributing to the various discussions. I hope you'll have a lot more comments to make in the future as I'm sure you've got a few gems of knowledge to contribute.
We all make comments on postings made, and I've made qute a few gaffs in my time, but I never take anything personally if I can help it.
And please don't bite my head off because I've wagged my finger, I assure you, I'm smiling as I write this now.
Oh... and Vic, sorry for letting it slip about your two heads.
;-)
John Williams
06-04-2003, 16:50
Paul,
As a fully naturalised Yorkshireman (and carrying an official Yorkshire Passport whenever I leave God's Own County) I take a huge amount of offence at being labelled with the "D" word!
I've been accused of amy things in the past - but very rarely have I been called "diplomatic!"
(many people will not be at all surprised at how rarely it has been!)
See...it is truly amazing what some people read offence into.
Even if the original post was a troll - consider who makes trolls? and why?
Either it is someone with a genuine problem seeking guidance - so we should do our best to provide it.
or
it is someone (possibly from another organisation) seeking to cause trouble and to portray the BSAC in a bad light - in which case we should do our best to appear as friendly and helpful as possible so that their crass attempt at sabotage backfires in a spectacular way...by proving that the BSAC really is the best diving club in the world and encouraging new and existing divers to join us within it.
When we effectively "wash our dirty laundry in public" and resort to throwing harsh words about...what does that tell the struggling member (or the outside world) about us?
Keep up the good work within your own branch - and allow that others might choose to do it differently.
Remember that those that choose the BSAC way are closer to being "friends" than those who choose another path and get seduced by the dark side! (then grow a second head!)
Safe, and happy, diving to all divers... & especially to BSAC divers (even Vic!)
John
PS
luv n hugs to Vic
Paul Oliver
06-04-2003, 18:57
Hi Andy
Thank you and point taken.
Regards
Paul
PS I am extremly mellow at the moment haveing had an excellant training weekend on two fronts (Boat handling and OD and DL OW training).
Paul Oliver
06-04-2003, 19:00
Hi John
As for Andy's post point taken.
Regards
Paul
PS I am still working on that list.
Andy Wade
06-04-2003, 19:12
Paul,
As a fully naturalised Yorkshireman (and carrying an official Yorkshire Passport whenever I leave God's Own County) I take a huge amount of offence at being labelled with the "D" word!
Hey! so am I!
I were born and bred in Alifax meself.
But I still don't take offence at use of the 'D' word.
I learned a long time ago to 'engage brain before opening gob', after quickly managing to insult a few blokes older than me when I joined up in the RAF, one of them took me to one side and explained things for me, like.... he'd kick my head in if I opened my big fat gob like that again.
I learned a lot that day.
;-)
(snipped)
See...it is truly amazing what some people read offence into.
Even if the original post was a troll - consider who makes trolls? and why?
Hmmm... yes I've been thinking about Adam's post possibly being a troll, but he did make another posting later in the thread, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.
luv n hugs to Vic
Luv n hugs?
Are you sure you're a Yorkshireman John?
;-)
Just kidding.
Luv n hugs......
Yeah right.
Andy Wade
06-04-2003, 19:17
Paul Oliver
06-04-2003, 23:13
Guys
I have been on the wrong end of more than a few Yorkshire rants anyway as i married a Yorkshire lass 10 years ago.
Regards
Paul
:="I joined the club five years ago to learn to dive and to go diving. At the time I completed all of lectures and practical work for Club diver and Sports Diver. All of the boxes are signed except a couple of the Sports Diver open water ones, which were not signed at the time (and the DO now does not remember doing with me)."
Indeed, I had originally missed this bit about having done these 2 open water requirements, but not having been signed up for them at the time. Most branches would have had some record of it too. Don't they keep dive logs?
There is a minor point that just because he did the dives it does not mean he did them to the required standard. I'm sure all active instructors have repeated lessons at times and when I don't sign the box it is because I want the lesson done again.
Pete
Dominic Humphries
10-04-2003, 11:08
I will also co-ordinate with Dover branch and i have a special guest as Mark Chase would like to see you in the water as well.
Vic & Mark Chase finally meet...
Please take a video camera to this event.
:=Terry
:=
:=That is totally pathetic and if you have an issue with me that is fine as i dont like you eather, but you are also impliying that other members of my branch are not up to the HOBBEY
:=
:=I hope none of my inexperienced divers see your comments in the hope that your rather pathetic dig does not put them off diving.
:=
:=I would have hoped that with your emphasis on training and building up confidence you would have put a bit of thought into digging at me.
:=
:=I would hope that you will retract that dig and the implied threat to my trainees, who i incedentally recommed read the postings on this forum for the information they will gain.
:=
:=I would have expected much more from a supposedly professional instructor.
:=
:=Paul
Only just read this so apogies for the late reply.
I have absouletely no idea as to who your are or what
experience you have, but I do know that statisticly you are
more likely to have an incident the longer you go on without
one.
Try checking out the BSAC Incident reports. I'm one of those
sad gits that actualy read them and try an put what's learnt
into practice.
One of the biggest problems in diving is complacency. Saying
you havnt had a DCI incident in .......
Dosent say to me that you are good (even if you are), but that
you are about due for one.
So by all means look on me as Mr.Nasty and have a go, but look
again at your safety procedures etc., because now is the time
you should start to get worried.
And dont worry I am being diplomatic. It applies to ALL
Instructors, senior divers. Including the ones in my own club.
TerryH
Adrian Kelland
11-04-2003, 16:03
PS We have never lost a diver and have had only 1 DCI incident in 35 years.
But I wonder how many rashes, aches, pains followed by "I'm OK, just a little pooped". Denial as a symptom?. This probably did occur in the first 35 years.
I've been diving 15 years and had to deal with the first DCI event I know I have seen last summer. Thats enough, but stats don't mean a thing. The first 34 years could be luck, the last year to your instructions as DO. Who really knows.
Heres to another 35 years safe diving.
Adrian
PS Do you still use Larkfield Lake?
Paul Oliver
11-04-2003, 22:23
Hi Adrian
I know we are not immune and may just have been lucky, and we may be due a hit, we use that to emphasise the safety requirements.
Yes we do still use Larkfield, we have been up there the last 3 Sundays and will have some members up there for the next few months as well.
Worst vis i have seen last weekend, but a lot of Schools use the place now. We use the far end and are usually on the right side as you cross the little bridge.
Regards
Paul
Thank you and point taken.
Pity you didnt direct the point taken to the person you
actually had a go at. That'll be me then Paul!
Practicing your diplomacy skills again ehh!
TerryH
vBulletin v3.5.4, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.