KISS Rebreathers in BSAC [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

Paul B

18-04-2003, 13:54

:=how would one go about registering as a jetsam KISS rebreather user within BSAC?

You're up against the 'CE tested' requirement thing in BSAC's current regulations so they won't accept it. If anything is going to revise that rule it is the KISS because, despite being a fine piece of kit, it can never be CE rated *as sold*.

BSAC is slow but we seem to be dragging her into the latter part of the 20th centuary so don't hold your breath (as we tell trainees) waiting for today.

nigelH

Perhaps it is now time for a little campaigning then! I intend to purchase a KISS in a month or so & would like to be able to use it within my branch.

Once I recieve the unit I do not intend to dive any other way, as I will need to re-learn many skills. If BSAC will not allow me to use the unit of my choice (a commercially manufactured piece of equipment not a homebuild)on which I will of course be receiving training then I can find little reason to remain a member of my branch.

This would not be a happy or easy choice, as they are a good group of people & I have has many enjoyable diving & social trips with them. It would also mean the loss to the branch of another active Advanced Diver & a former DO.

How many others find themselves in a similar sitution, how many KISS users out there are or were! BSAC menmbers.

Just my little rant!

Paul

Jake Smith

18-04-2003, 17:46

:=how would one go about registering as a jetsam KISS rebreather user within BSAC?

You're up against the 'CE tested' requirement thing in BSAC's current regulations so they won't accept it. If anything is going to revise that rule it is the KISS because, despite being a fine piece of kit, it can never be CE rated *as sold*.

BSAC is slow but we seem to be dragging her into the latter part of the 20th centuary so don't hold your breath (as we tell trainees) waiting for today.

nigelH

well it meets at least three of the four requirements for BSAC rebreather from the Rebreather Safe Diving blurb:
-CE approved at point of sale, or meet corresponding requirements in the geographic area of purchase
-designed for recreational diving
-have unit specific training course available from recognised training agencies
-have clear distribution channels and have technical support available by the manufacturer or authorised representative

Those rebreathers meeting other international and national standards will be reviewed on an individual basis but a tested pedigree must be proven on such review.

Aaex Jones

25-04-2003, 11:43

:=:=how would one go about registering as a jetsam KISS rebreather user within BSAC?
:=
:=You're up against the 'CE tested' requirement thing in BSAC's current regulations so they won't accept it. If anything is going to revise that rule it is the KISS because, despite being a fine piece of kit, it can never be CE rated *as sold*.
:=
:=BSAC is slow but we seem to be dragging her into the latter part of the 20th centuary so don't hold your breath (as we tell trainees) waiting for today.
:=
:=nigelH

well it meets at least three of the four requirements for BSAC rebreather from the Rebreather Safe Diving blurb:
-CE approved at point of sale, or meet corresponding requirements in the geographic area of purchase
-designed for recreational diving
-have unit specific training course available from recognised training agencies
-have clear distribution channels and have technical support available by the manufacturer or authorised representative

Those rebreathers meeting other international and national standards will be reviewed on an individual basis but a tested pedigree must be proven on such review.

have just read with interest the following post on the SAA forum

--

Post : "Does the SAA allow the use of the Jetsam Kiss rebreather. "

--------------------
Reply (Paul JR NDO SAA): "Difficult question, we can't condone the use of non CE approved equipment. I am assuming that the KISS is not CE marked yet.

However your insurance will not be void if you use one within the guidelines "

---------------------

keith S.

25-04-2003, 12:12

cat

25-04-2003, 19:02

jake smith

25-04-2003, 19:06

I've done the IANTD CCR1 course for the KISS with
Martin Robson, and he was telling me recently that
the BSAC rebreather working party had been asked
if branch diving was allowable with a KISS if the
diver had recognised training. The answer apparently
was 'Errr, probably'.

Providing you do not instruct on it you're not
going to fall foul of HSE regulations so I can't see
why the CE marking is an issue. Not having
recognised training is, though.

this is the reply i got from Bob Howel

"Bottom Line is you Can't
You will have to use it on NON BSAC dives

Its a Non BSAC Approved Unit that has
NO Gov Approved Independent testing done on the unit

NO service agent or back up in the EEC
service agent is illegal to do in the EEC anyway as the unit has no CE mark

Also from September this year it will be illegal for you to sell this unit
on in the second hand market unless it has a CE mark
You will be responsible to sell a safe unit on How do you prove that
In court ?

If you wish to dive with this unit
You will have to use it on NON BSAC dives
you can not use it at work or do any teaching ,dive leading when
wearing the unit (HSE rule)
If you decide to do the Kiss RB course in the UK you will find your
Instructor can not use the unit when teaching you
HSE Rule ?

BSAC are not in a position to say what unit is safe or not
BSAC can not afford the ?75,000 for Approved Independent testing done to
each rebreather to say its safe to use
that is the role of the CE mark in the EEC
BSAC have to be guided by the HSE and DERA and will approve any unit with
a CE Mark or equivalent foreign approved test centre like DERA

We are not saying the Kiss is not a nice or safe rebreather or the best
thing since sliced bread

You or BSAC Can not Prove Otherwise on Paper
UNIT IS SAVE or UNSAFE

If you wish to talk more on rebreathers you can always give me a Bell

I have 24 units most are not CE

Regards

Bob Howell"

jake smith

25-04-2003, 19:47

:=:=:=how would one go about registering as a jetsam KISS rebreather user within BSAC?
:=:=
:=:=You're up against the 'CE tested' requirement thing in BSAC's current regulations so they won't accept it. If anything is going to revise that rule it is the KISS because, despite being a fine piece of kit, it can never be CE rated *as sold*.
:=:=
:=:=BSAC is slow but we seem to be dragging her into the latter part of the 20th centuary so don't hold your breath (as we tell trainees) waiting for today.
:=:=
:=:=nigelH
:=
:=well it meets at least three of the four requirements for BSAC rebreather from the Rebreather Safe Diving blurb:
:=-CE approved at point of sale, or meet corresponding requirements in the geographic area of purchase
:=-designed for recreational diving
:=-have unit specific training course available from recognised training agencies
:=-have clear distribution channels and have technical support available by the manufacturer or authorised representative
:=
:=
:=
:=Those rebreathers meeting other international and national standards will be reviewed on an individual basis but a tested pedigree must be proven on such review.

have just read with interest the following post on the SAA forum

--

Post : "Does the SAA allow the use of the Jetsam Kiss rebreather. "

--------------------
Reply (Paul JR NDO SAA): "Difficult question, we can't condone the use of non CE approved equipment. I am assuming that the KISS is not CE marked yet.

However your insurance will not be void if you use one within the guidelines "

---------------------

mm So by that it looks like I might have to go over to an SAA club then

Mike Rowley

27-04-2003, 12:15

I can confirm that Bob Howel's advice is completely accurate. Unless a rebreather is CE marked or approved by it's own government agency BSAC cannot adopt it for use in Branch diving. This is not a matter of not wishing to, it is a matter of legal liability. This is the advice the BSAC Rebreather Working Group has received and is bound to follow. We discussed this issue at length and all members of the group actually wanted to find a way of accepting the KISS and the Megeladon but we came up against a legal brick wall which ever way we turned.

BSAC cannot afford to put each rebreather through CE testing nor is it the correct body to do so. This responsibility rests fairly and squarely with the manufacturer. Therefore, if the manufacturer does not BSAC is not in a position to approve it. The KISS is not CE marked and has not undergone any formal approval proceedure in Canada. It may be a great unit and no one on the RWG would dispute that, but that is the position we find ourselves in.

Bob is also correct in his statement that under the new EEC Rebreather Standard that comes into force in September (I think)it will be illegal to sell any rebreather that is not CE marked and conforming to the standard within the EEC. This is why the KISS is sold as a kit of parts and not as a complete rebreather. As I understand it the new Rebreather standard will plug this loophole, however, not being a lawyer I could well be incorrect in this latter assertion.

This will apply to second hand sales equally. The position will be that it is not illegal to use a non-CE marked unit (except when instructing or undertaking a working dive), just illegal to sell one. This will also impinge on people selling modified CE marked rebreathers such as the Draeger and Inspiration. They will need to put the unit back to standard before selling it to remain on the right side of the law.

There is the additional possibility that were a diver unfortunate enough to be involved with another diver who had an accident and he/she was using a non-CE marked rebreather, the lawyers might use that fact against him/her in court as well as the person who sold them the unit. Again, I am not a lawyer so I am unsure how strong a possibility that might be.

Sorry if this is not the news you want. However, it is not BSAC who make the rules in this case, it is the EEC and the lawyers. The people to put pressure on if you wish to dive the KISS or any other non-CE marked rebreather on BSAC branch dives is the manufacturer. He needs to make sure it conforms to EEC law to legally sell it in the UK. This costs about ?10,000 per day I'm reliably informed.

Mike Rowley

:=I've done the IANTD CCR1 course for the KISS with
:=Martin Robson, and he was telling me recently that
:=the BSAC rebreather working party had been asked
:=if branch diving was allowable with a KISS if the
:=diver had recognised training. The answer apparently
:=was 'Errr, probably'.
:=
:=Providing you do not instruct on it you're not
:=going to fall foul of HSE regulations so I can't see
:=why the CE marking is an issue. Not having
:=recognised training is, though.

this is the reply i got from Bob Howel

"Bottom Line is you Can't
You will have to use it on NON BSAC dives

Its a Non BSAC Approved Unit that has
NO Gov Approved Independent testing done on the unit

NO service agent or back up in the EEC
service agent is illegal to do in the EEC anyway as the unit has no CE mark

Also from September this year it will be illegal for you to sell this unit
on in the second hand market unless it has a CE mark
You will be responsible to sell a safe unit on How do you prove that
In court ?

If you wish to dive with this unit
You will have to use it on NON BSAC dives
you can not use it at work or do any teaching ,dive leading when
wearing the unit (HSE rule)
If you decide to do the Kiss RB course in the UK you will find your
Instructor can not use the unit when teaching you
HSE Rule ?

BSAC are not in a position to say what unit is safe or not
BSAC can not afford the ?75,000 for Approved Independent testing done to
each rebreather to say its safe to use
that is the role of the CE mark in the EEC
BSAC have to be guided by the HSE and DERA and will approve any unit with
a CE Mark or equivalent foreign approved test centre like DERA

We are not saying the Kiss is not a nice or safe rebreather or the best
thing since sliced bread

You or BSAC Can not Prove Otherwise on Paper
UNIT IS SAVE or UNSAFE

If you wish to talk more on rebreathers you can always give me a Bell

I have 24 units most are not CE

Regards

Bob Howell"

Nigel Hewitt

27-04-2003, 12:45

Unless a rebreather is CE marked or approved by it's own government agency BSAC cannot adopt it for use in Branch diving. This is not a matter of not wishing to, it is a matter of legal liability. This is the advice the BSAC Rebreather Working Group has received and is bound to follow.

So the problem is the definition of the 'Branch Dive'. But surely the DO does not check all my other equipment for CE stamps? Should he?

Would BSAC be risking a lot less liability in this and other areas if the definition of a branch dive did not include so much control and hence assumed responsibility?

nigelH

Mike Rowley

27-04-2003, 22:01

So the problem is the definition of the 'Branch Dive'. But surely the DO does not check all my other equipment for CE stamps? Should he?

I think you will find that the situation is similar for all equipment that is classed as life support equipment. It is just not a problem for standard SCUBA gear as the vast majority of it, at least the items that form life support gear, are CE marked or carry a national government approval or both. Rebreathers are about to get their own CE standard with EN14143.

The problem is not with BSAC, it is with CE marking and EC law.

Mike Rowley

Vic

27-04-2003, 22:10

> I think you will find that the situation is similar for all
> equipment that is classed as life support equipment.

That could be something of a problem...

> It is just not a problem for standard SCUBA gear as the vast
> majority of it, at least the items that form life support
> gear, are CE marked or carry a national government approval
> or both.

So how does this affect combinations? What happens when you put an Apex 2nd stage on a Poseidon first, for example? AIUI, CE-marking doesn't survive user modification...

> The problem is not with BSAC, it is with CE marking and EC
> law.

I suspect there might be a problem with certain interpretations of law; it would benefit us all greatly to formulate a few questions & put them to someone who can speak authoritatively on these matters.

Vic.

Nigel Hewitt

27-04-2003, 22:14

I think you will find that the situation is similar for all equipment that is classed as life support equipment.

No. You miss the point. A BSAC member who is a KISS owner can go dive his rebreather from a comercial charter or from a friend's boat without a problem. He can dive with other BSAC members but the problem only comes with the event called 'a club dive'.

Is the definition of 'a club dive' past its sell by date if it is making more problems than it solves?

nigelH

bob howell

28-04-2003, 09:37

A Rebreather is tested & CE marked as a whole unit
A sum of all the parts working together.

OC gear is CE marked and tested as individual components .
Most service centre?s will not hand back your
Poseidon first stage with your Apeks second stage installed
You end up with it all in a bag as separate parts ?

CE mark is only for PONT OF SALE in the EEC

A rebreather has to go for independent testing to obtain the CE Mark
To be sold in the EEC

We then know the unit has been independently tested

Bob

> I think you will find that the situation is similar for all
> equipment that is classed as life support equipment.

That could be something of a problem...

> It is just not a problem for standard SCUBA gear as the vast
> majority of it, at least the items that form life support
> gear, are CE marked or carry a national government approval
> or both.

So how does this affect combinations? What happens when you put an Apex 2nd stage on a Poseidon first, for example? AIUI, CE-marking doesn't survive user modification...

> The problem is not with BSAC, it is with CE marking and EC
> law.

I suspect there might be a problem with certain interpretations of law; it would benefit us all greatly to formulate a few questions & put them to someone who can speak authoritatively on these matters.

Vic.

bob howell

28-04-2003, 10:05

Funny you say can dive a commercial charter ?

Not too long ago a number of Charter boat skippers were refusing all RB divers ,,,full stop

Things may well change in that area ,later on
Remember the charter boat skipper is at work?
And if your using him as your only top side cover?
He is then also at work ?

Something to think on

Bob

No. You miss the point. A BSAC member who is a KISS owner can go dive his rebreather from a comercial charter or from a friend's boat without a problem. He can dive with other BSAC members but the problem only comes with the event called 'a club dive'.

Is the definition of 'a club dive' past its sell by date if it is tmaking more problems han it solves?

nigelH

Vic

28-04-2003, 10:16

> CE mark is only for PONT OF SALE in the EEC

That's certainly the case at the moment, but Mike's point in <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/depthforum/posts/843.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/depthforum/posts/843.html</a> is that "This will apply to second hand sales equally"; if he's right, then we have creeping legislation (and I wouldn't put that past 'em). If he's wrong, then the whole point is irrelevant anyway - sales of new kit are still covered, but sales of old piles of junk / spare parts are not (same as current legislation), and use of kit without CE marks is not covered (in any sense) for amateur use.

IOW, there's no reason for BSAC to get upset about any of it - if someone can buy it, there's no legislation to stop them using it...

Vic.

Paul B

28-04-2003, 10:55

Snip
>:=Not too long ago a number of Charter boat skippers were >refusing all RB divers ,,,full stop

Not too long ago BSAC were refusing:

Trimix
All Rebreathers
Nitrox

,,,full stop

Things change it just takes forever!

Paul

bob howell

28-04-2003, 12:48

Second-hand Is still Point of sale

Think!! Point of sale and Intended use for CE

If you?re only selling it to hang on the wall as a collectible and the intended use is NOT for diving , OK

This would be very hard to police, may only come up if there was an incident of some kind with some no win no fee lawyer getting involved.

:>if someone can buy it, there's no legislation to
:>stop them using it

VERY TRUE:
This goes for OC kit as well you dont need a cert you can now pop into any dive shop get all the gear and drop into the nearest pond if you wish

The best way to look at the CE mark thing with Rebreather?s

BSAC are ONLY using the CE MARK to confirm independent testing has been done and approved for sport diving .

If you look at the RB FAQs RBWG will also allow other independent Gov approved testing.

IF any unit has had independent Gov approved testing / approved for sport diving
With a approved unit course in place

IMO
It would be very hard for RBWG not to appove use within the club

I have NOT seen anywere that BSAC say you can only dive CE goods
only that RB has independent Gov approved testing / approved for sport diving

See Below:

What is BSAC's recommendation regarding the purchase or diving of rebreathers outside the UK?
If someone dives outside the European Community (EC) or buys a personal non-CE unit outside the EC and brings it into Britain, in principle they are approved to dive it provided these rebreathers ..'are recognised and fully evaluated, and carry the CE marking or other governmental approval' in accordance with BSAC recommendations.
It is not against European law to buy a personal non-CE rebreather outside the EC and bring it into Britain provided the units are not being sold or used for paid work

Bob

> CE mark is only for PONT OF SALE in the EEC

That's certainly the case at the moment, but Mike's point in <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/depthforum/posts/843.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/depthforum/posts/843.html</a> is that "This will apply to second hand sales equally"; if he's right, then we have creeping legislation (and I wouldn't put that past 'em). If he's wrong, then the whole point is irrelevant anyway - sales of new kit are still covered, but sales of old piles of junk / spare parts are not (same as current legislation), and use of kit without CE marks is not covered (in any sense) for amateur use.

IOW, there's no reason for BSAC to get upset about any of it - if someone can buy it, there's no legislation to stop them using it...

Vic.

Mike Rowley

28-04-2003, 13:49

Vic

From the advice we have received there is every reason for BSAC to be concerned. The hierarchy of who the lawyers would go for is apparently defined as such;

"Where no importer is identifiable to ?blame?, i.e., a company or person to sue; who is next in-line??"

Governing body
Organisation
Instructor
Buddy

As Bob says, think point of sale irrespective of whether it is new or second hand. The only good news is that the implementation date is December 2003.

Mike

IOW, there's no reason for BSAC to get upset about any of it - if someone can buy it, there's no legislation to stop them using it...

Vic.

Andrew Goldby

29-04-2003, 16:00

While it is good to see some consistancy in the thread now it is not the answer that many of us were hoping for.

Some 60 odd KISS units have been sold now over half of which have gone to UK divers.

IANTD are now doing KISS specific courses through to trimix and apparantly TDI are in discussions with a UK rep.

Jo & I are both new KISS users but to us it really seems a great unit (no-one seems to doubt this) with very little to go wrong on it.

We have done a recognised course and our insurance covers us for using the units in any country for any length of time (incl. Third Party Liability). In fact the coverage is significantly greater than the BSAC TP insurance and covers us in the States.

The saddest thing is the apparant double standards:
We can dive with a bunch of BSAC divers met on the internet from a hard boat on the South Coast
BUT if we call that same dive a REDS we cannot do it on our units.

(We have been asked to run the REDS for the SE but there seems little point if we can't use our units.)

PLEASE can the RBWG put some serious thought into allowing the use of these units on BSAC events IF you have adequate insurance and training - subject of course to the usual BSAC recommended limits.

After all - what is the difference between using a non-CE approved KISS and using an Inspiration with a Bob'a'matic ADV with is also (as I understand it) not CE marked and as such renders the CE marking on the entire unit worthless.

Andy

ps Any KISS divers out there want to go diving ......

keith S.

29-04-2003, 18:34

If you wish to dive with this unit
You will have to use it on NON BSAC dives

That's OK then. I didn't renew my BSAC membership
this year... not a lot of point now I've got the
KISS is there?

Mike Rowley

29-04-2003, 18:58

Andy

Whilst all of us on the RWG empathise with your point of view we are not in a position to move in the direction you want merely because you wish it, even though we would all like to.

If you look at an earlier post of mine you will see that the advice we have received is that the lawyers would go for a list of possible people to sue if anything were to go wrong and relatives decided to hire some ambulance chasers.

Where a manufacturer or importer is not identifiable then the lawyers would look to sue the training agency, the club,the branch, the DO/dive marshall or the buddy. Which ever one they thought they could extract the most money from with least effort would be favourite. (If you doubt this is a possibility you only have to look at last months "Diver" mag and the article about the ex NAUI instructor teaming up with a firm of Manchester solicitors).

There are no double standards here. When you choose to go diving with your rebreather with a group of friends the resposibility and liability is entirely yours. When you dive on a BSAC club or branch dive some liability spills over to BSAC as well.

Diving with a modification on a CE marked unit does not, as you assert "screw up the CE marking". The CE marking refers to the point of sale. It is not against the law to use the modified unit as it is not against the law for you to purchase and dive with your KISS. It would be against the law to sell it with the modifications still fitted as it is against the law to sell the KISS as a rebreather. This is why it is sold as individual parts which you have to assemble. The problem BSAC has is if we allow non-CE marked rebreathers some of the liability is placed on the organisation.

Andy, you are being a little ingenuous here. You knew the situation when you purchased your KISS. I understand you spoke at length to Penny Glover about it. You were well aware that BSAC could not sanction the use of the KISS on BSAC dives.A considerable amount of discussion was had at a RWG meeting about your problem. We would dearly like to help but our hands are tied.

The people you need to put pressure on is the manufacturer or the importer. One or the other can either have the unit CE marked or have the unit approved by the appropriate government body in its country of origin. In either case the problem would be simply solved.

Mike

While it is good to see some consistancy in the thread now it is not the answer that many of us were hoping for.

Some 60 odd KISS units have been sold now over half of which have gone to UK divers.

IANTD are now doing KISS specific courses through to trimix and apparantly TDI are in discussions with a UK rep.

Jo & I are both new KISS users but to us it really seems a great unit (no-one seems to doubt this) with very little to go wrong on it.

We have done a recognised course and our insurance covers us for using the units in any country for any length of time (incl. Third Party Liability). In fact the coverage is significantly greater than the BSAC TP insurance and covers us in the States.

The saddest thing is the apparant double standards:
We can dive with a bunch of BSAC divers met on the internet from a hard boat on the South Coast
BUT if we call that same dive a REDS we cannot do it on our units.

(We have been asked to run the REDS for the SE but there seems little point if we can't use our units.)

PLEASE can the RBWG put some serious thought into allowing the use of these units on BSAC events IF you have adequate insurance and training - subject of course to the usual BSAC recommended limits.

After all - what is the difference between using a non-CE approved KISS and using an Inspiration with a Bob'a'matic ADV with is also (as I understand it) not CE marked and as such renders the CE marking on the entire unit worthless.

Andy

ps Any KISS divers out there want to go diving ......

Andrew Goldby

29-04-2003, 19:59

Thanks for the reply Mike - although I think you slightly misquoted me on the "screw up" front ;-)

As it happens we had already ordered our units by the time we spoke to Penny and most of the correspondence and subesquent RBWG discussion was therefore after they had already arrived (hence the offer to bring them to LIDS for people to tear down).

My mail was designed to show:
a: I'm glad that you are all unified now - at one stage we were getting yes, no & maybe from various people (even if I disagree!)
b: I still think there are double standards (although this is probably the wrong term for it) in that exactly the same dive is treated in 2 different ways depending on what it is called.

I am not trying to be difficult but I truely cannot see the difference between:
1) diving a unit which wasn't CE approved but you then used for a course and are now insured to dive with
and
2)diving one that was CE marked when you bought it - but you subsequently added integral (and important) parts that are non-CE approved and/or modify in other ways.

In particular the current RBWG recommendations (or are they rules?) seem to indicate that a Draeger even if modified (in your garage) with a KISS injection system may be okay necause it meets your criteria (CE approved at point of sale etc) whereas the KISS is not although it is undeniably a better & safer unit (if you have modified the Draeger yourself) since it has far better pO2 monitoring etc).

Penny indicated to me that following our correspondance more specific guidance would be given but I have heard nothing back from her since.

If the SAA truely have now changed their stance from "KISS - not on my dives" to "We don't recommend it but your insurance is still fine if you have done a suitable course" then I think we are again going to find ourselves in a position where people drift away to SAA as we did in the early years of trimix and Rebreathers.

We do understand the general reticence to allow divers to use them if the lawyers are cautioning against it. I am just sorry that we cannot find a way around the issue through insurance / training etc.
CE marking (at point of sale) should not be the be-all-and-end-all for rejection.

Zak

29-04-2003, 20:34

*sigh* and whats the betting we'll be the only country to abide by this EC directive.

Some thoughts;

1. Where does this leave things like the Halcyon products, which dont carry CE legislation?
2. Can we assume that Bob's ADV is in the same boat as the KISS?

Frankly, I find it all somewhat laughable. I see the value in CE marking, but I think that sometimes this "one size fits all approach" is puerile.

As for plugging the "build it yourself kit" loophole, why bother? Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

/Zak (KISS #40)

Vic

From the advice we have received there is every reason for BSAC to be concerned. The hierarchy of who the lawyers would go for is apparently defined as such;

"Where no importer is identifiable to ?blame?, i.e., a company or person to sue; who is next in-line??"

Governing body
Organisation
Instructor
Buddy

As Bob says, think point of sale irrespective of whether it is new or second hand. The only good news is that the implementation date is December 2003.

Mike

:=
:=IOW, there's no reason for BSAC to get upset about any of it - if someone can buy it, there's no legislation to stop them using it...
:=
:=Vic.

Mike Rowley

29-04-2003, 20:48

CE marking (at point of sale) should not be the be-all-and-end-all for rejection.

It isn't Andy. National approval is also a process that is acceptable. If the KISS were to be tested and approved by what ever Canadian body is competent to do so then I'm sure BSAC would have no problem in recognising it. As it is the unit is not even sold as a rebreather in the UK, just a kit of parts. Should BSAC therefore approve any and every kit of parts that anyone decides to put together? There has to be some kind of criteria that can be demonstrated as credible.

If the manufacturer is confident of his product he should have no problem in seeking approval from a recognised test procedure. However, I do understand that the costs are high but if the manufacturer wishes to sell these units in numbers should he not provide proof of fitness for purpose as a diving rebreather by way of official testing and approval? Is that not clearly his responsibility?

If we could see a way of approving the KISS why would we not do it for you? After all both of you are well respected, valued and active members of the BSAC Coaching Scheme and the ITS. Of course we would if we could see a clear way. Indeed, a member of the RWG dives with a non CE marked rebreather. No one would argue that the Cis-Luna is the definitive rebreather. If there were not serious concerns about the possible consequences do you not think we would allow both units and the Megalodon as well?

In my view the ball is firmly in the court of the manufacturer or the importer. However, if you can find legal opinion that contradicts the advice we have received I am sure we would look at the situation again.

Mike

Paul B

29-04-2003, 20:50

Snip

>:=If you look at an earlier post of mine you will see that >the advice we have received is that the lawyers would go for >a list of possible people to sue if anything were to go wrong >and relatives decided to hire some ambulance chasers.

And the RWG seriously believes that if an accident occured the lawyers wouldn't have a field day with the fact that BSAC allows members to "Modify" perfectly good CE approved equipment, using non-manufacturer approved equipment?

Paul

Andrew Goldby

29-04-2003, 21:47

If we could see a way of approving the KISS why would we not do it for you?

We are not for one minute suggesting that you are holding out on us Mike ;-) please don't take anything the wrong way.

I would be grateful if you could clarify one thing for us though.

Do the RBWG have any guidance on the level of Mods to a CE unit that you can do and still use it within BSAC?
an example ....
1) I buy a Draeger & do the SCR course
2) I add a richer O2 mix in a second cylinder with a manual feed to the counter lungs to accelerate deco
3) I start using pure O2 in this second cylinder
4) I add a triple redundant ppO2 monitoring device
5) I add a flow restrictor to allow a fixed mass of the O2 into the loop & block off the std Draeger mass flow of nitrox
6) I turn the unit on its side to get the scrubber between the counterlungs and make it better balanced
7) I dispose of the plastic shell and hide the CLs in a metal shell

At what stage do BSAC recommend that you no-longer do BSAC dives with the unit?

This was my original query to Penny that never got answered.
What I am left with at the end of the above process (as I'm sure everyone hsa guessed) is a KISS style unit that I built myself but have done no course for.

We felt this was unsafe so opted for the KISS straight away but now can't use it on BSAC dives so we mainly dive outside BSAC. In fact our only BSAC dives these days are training people in the club, on SDCs or ITS events.

We will look into the legal situation and continue our discussions with the Manufacturer. Do you have any idea who the relevant Canadian independant testing body would be -or must it be the government. Since they are sold there I had assumed that the government were happy - but I will chase it up.

BTW does this all mean that you aprove the Prism given it has been independantly tested by the US navy?

Andrew Goldby

29-04-2003, 23:21

As it is the unit is not even sold as a rebreather in the UK, just a kit of parts.

Mike
This is a common misconception.

The unit ships as a complete unit with the exception that the O-rings are in a separate bag.
All you have to do is install the O-rings and fit the cylinders and wing.
Since you should regularly change the o-rings in any rebreather I do not understand why this makes it any different.

Jo (not Andy!)

iainmsmith

30-04-2003, 00:12

1. Where does this leave things like the Halcyon products, which dont carry CE legislation?

Due to this ridiculous buerocracy, (IMO) the best single tank wing (the Halcyon "Pioneer") is unavailable until (hopefully) this summer. The twinset "Explorer" wing is, however, CE marked.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

It died with the introduction of "no-win, no-fee", "Did you have an accident? Therefore someone else must be to blame" ambulance chasers. (See the movie "Philadelphia" for an excellent example of this)

Iain

bob howell

30-04-2003, 09:41

Gorden's Own words see his site
<a href="http://www.jetsam.ca/index.php" >http://www.jetsam.ca/index.php</a>

THIS DEVICE IS CAPABLE OF KILLING YOU WITHOUT WARNING

(Bob "Mind you so are all Rebreathers")

This rebreather has NOT been tested by the US Navy, DCIEM or any other organization, it is NOT CE approved and the only guarantee that it comes with is that it is absolutely capable of killing you. You are buying a set of components that you will have to assemble, test, and add your own tanks, BC, sensors, and other components before it is usable. More than 30 people have done this already with minimal difficulty.

The legal profession has a saying that "a man who acts as his own council has a fool for a client". The same can be said about learning to dive a rebreather on your own.

<

Now i am not knocking the Kiss RB or Gorden

You may see why the RBWG has a problem
with the professional advice given.

Can you think of a way forward?

It?s all a bit sad really we are now on our 50th year as a Diving Club . If you go back to year dot
80% of the Equipment was home Made

Bob

:=As it is the unit is not even sold as a rebreather in the UK, just a kit of parts.

Mike
This is a common misconception.

The unit ships as a complete unit with the exception that the O-rings are in a separate bag.
All you have to do is install the O-rings and fit the cylinders and wing.
Since you should regularly change the o-rings in any rebreather I do not understand why this makes it any different.

Jo (not Andy!)

Vic

30-04-2003, 10:31

> You may see why the RBWG has a problem
> with the professional advice given.

I'd actually like to see the text of the "professional" advice; the text you've quoted from Gordon's website is actually very similar to that from most other manufacturers (if a little more aggressive in tone!)

> Can you think of a way forward?

First job would be to lay all the cards on the table. Let's sort out what has been said in an official professional capacity from what has been surmised, misunderstood, misinterpreted, or spontaneously created to prop up an internet argument. Let's see what BSAC has actually been told by its lawyers *in the original words*, and let's see where we can go from there.

> It?s all a bit sad really we are now on our 50th year as a
> Diving Club . If you go back to year dot, 80% of the
> Equipment was home Made

Exactly. We have a tradition of experimentation; frankly, I find it ludicrous that we now spend so much time/effort/money preventing people from getting on with just that. And this is something that *really* should worry all divers - OC SC, or CC - as it is the thin end of a very restrictive wedge...

Vic.

Mike Rowley

30-04-2003, 11:35

I would be grateful if you could clarify one thing for us though.

Do the RBWG have any guidance on the level of Mods to a CE unit that you can do and still use it within BSAC?

We have kicked this problem around for ages. The big difficulty is always the dicotomy between being unecessarily proscriptive or allowing anything which could end up as a home build of ridiculous proportions. Something similar to you describe. Our original idea turned out to be far too proscriptive.We finally came up with the current recommendation which is in the FAQs. This we feel allows people to modify their rebreathers but cautions them about the dangers. Thus the resposibility is placed on their shoulders. We will have to add to this in the light of EN14143. I am sure none of us envisaged the level of modification that you describe and if asked would say that this was not acceptable since this completely changes the design specification of the rebreather.

Do you have any idea who the relevant Canadian independant testing body would be -or must it be the government.

I don't know but I will try to find out for you.

BTW does this all mean that you aprove the Prism given it has been independantly tested by the US navy?

No. The Prism was never designed for recreational diving so falls outside the BSAC criteria.

Mike

Vic

30-04-2003, 12:09

> No. The Prism was never designed for recreational diving so
> falls outside the BSAC criteria.

Errr- - you sure? The Topaz is a civvy unit. The Invader is their military one...

(And the Invader is a derivative of the Topaz!)

Other Steam Machines units are derivatives of the Biomarine/Carleton design, so I can see that they fall outside the BSAC "recreational" rule (which I have to say I heartily disagree with). But the Topaz is clearly a recreational unit, even though the NEDU were some of the first people to express a major interest in it.

Vic.

bob howell

01-05-2003, 22:52

You better go back and have a second look then

<a href="http://www.saa.org.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=admin" >http://www.saa.org.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=admin</a>;action=display;num=1050659833

The Kiss rebreather is not CE approved in therefore NOT covered by SAA insurance.

SAA guidelines do not allow the use of none CE approved equipment for diving

<<<<<<<<<<<<<

have just read with interest the following post on the SAA forum

--

Post : "Does the SAA allow the use of the Jetsam Kiss rebreather. "

--------------------
Reply (Paul JR NDO SAA): "Difficult question, we can't condone the use of non CE approved equipment. I am assuming that the KISS is not CE marked yet.

However your insurance will not be void if you use one within the guidelines "

---------------------

Thumper Rider

02-05-2003, 01:03

As a first aider, safety boat driver and long term hater of the "ambulance chaser" culture I have some sympathy with BSAC not being prepared to open themselves to litigation. Indeed it's part of their responsibility to their members.
I do however think that there must be some sort of sensible middle ground. For instance, it's clear that BSAC cannot insure divers using non approved rebreathers, fair enough that's been done to death so let's move forward (!) we all appear to agree that the BSAC started with people taking personal responsibility and experimenting and that that is broadly a good thing. SO, why doesn't one of the legal eagles produce a disclaimer which divers could sign if they wanted to use non-approved eqpt on a "club" dive? Something saying broadly that they are aware that BSAC considers the eqpt to be experimental/non govt or CE approved and that they are diving at their own risk and that BSAC has no indemnity. Yes, no insurance and yes buddy pairs would have to be one or the other but hey, we're getting back to a bit of personal responsibility here and that can only be a good thing!!!
Now before everyone says "no it can't be done because of x, y and z" please stop and after you have thought of problems try to think of solutions because if we cannot move forward then a an organisation we will at least stagnate!
Diving involves making decisions, lets not allow the amulance chasers and lawyers to remove our right to make decisions!
Just my little rant!
GS
Snip

>:=If you look at an earlier post of mine you will see that >the advice we have received is that the lawyers would go for >a list of possible people to sue if anything were to go wrong >and relatives decided to hire some ambulance chasers.

And the RWG seriously believes that if an accident occured the lawyers wouldn't have a field day with the fact that BSAC allows members to "Modify" perfectly good CE approved equipment, using non-manufacturer approved equipment?

Paul

Andy Wade

02-05-2003, 01:29

As a first aider, safety boat driver and long term hater of the "ambulance chaser" culture I have some sympathy with BSAC not being prepared to open themselves to litigation. Indeed it's part of their responsibility to their members.
I do however think that there must be some sort of sensible middle ground. For instance, it's clear that BSAC cannot insure divers using non approved rebreathers, fair enough that's been done to death so let's move forward (!) we all appear to agree that the BSAC started with people taking personal responsibility and experimenting and that that is broadly a good thing. SO, why doesn't one of the legal eagles produce a disclaimer which divers could sign if they wanted to use non-approved eqpt on a "club" dive? Something saying broadly that they are aware that BSAC considers the eqpt to be experimental/non govt or CE approved and that they are diving at their own risk and that BSAC has no indemnity. Yes, no insurance and yes buddy pairs would have to be one or the other but hey, we're getting back to a bit of personal responsibility here and that can only be a good thing!!!
Now before everyone says "no it can't be done because of x, y and z" please stop and after you have thought of problems try to think of solutions because if we cannot move forward then a an organisation we will at least stagnate!
Diving involves making decisions, lets not allow the amulance chasers and lawyers to remove our right to make decisions!

Well I'm sorry to say x y and z but....
IIRC there's a problem with signing disclaimers because you can't sign away your legal rights or something like that.

Something like that anyway.

Maybe there's a lawyer out there who can expand on this.
I think it's a kind of like the standard 'guarantee' thing where they say, You can have a replacement item if this one doesn't work, but 'This does not affect your statutary rights' ie: you're still covered under the law affecting sale of goods, or something similar.
You know what I mean don't you?

Shame though.
I agree with you in principle, but I don't think laws work like that unfortunately.
Everyone's covering their backs I'm afraid.

.

PeteM

02-05-2003, 10:00

Well I'm sorry to say x y and z but....
IIRC there's a problem with signing disclaimers because you can't sign away your legal rights or something like that.

Yep, any document that excludes or limits liability for physical damages is worth somewhat less than the paper its printed on

Adam Worth

02-05-2003, 13:41

:=Well I'm sorry to say x y and z but....
:=IIRC there's a problem with signing disclaimers because you can't sign away your legal rights or something like that.

Yep, any document that excludes or limits liability for physical damages is worth somewhat less than the paper its printed on

In slightly more detail: you can not limit or waive liability for death or injury. In some circumstances it is a criminal offence to puport to limit or waive such liability.

Also if neglect or recklessness is towards another is sufficient to give rise to a criminal charge (such as manslaughter) any consent to such neglect of recklessness is worthless (and may even be an offence in iteslf).

The problem is not with these fine principles, but with how risk is assessed and the perception that, for example, risk is substantially increased by using a non CE marked rebreather over using a CE marked unit.

It is not only rebreathers that are CE marked - my stab jacket is. Have I voided the CE mark by stiching my strobe and two extra D-rings to it, and if so what are the implications? How do I prove my competence to sew?

Puzzled.

Adam

Paul B

02-05-2003, 14:08

Snip
It is not only rebreathers that are CE marked - my stab jacket is. Have I voided the CE mark by stiching my strobe and two extra D-rings to it, and if so what are the implications? How do I prove my competence to sew?

Puzzled.

Adam

I wonder why "Safe Diving Practises" makes no mention of the requirement for all dive equipment to be CE approved?

Paul

Beanie

02-05-2003, 17:19

Snip
:=It is not only rebreathers that are CE marked - my stab jacket is. Have I voided the CE mark by stiching my strobe and two extra D-rings to it, and if so what are the implications? How do I prove my competence to sew?
:=
:=Puzzled.
:=
:=Adam

I wonder why "Safe Diving Practises" makes no mention of the requirement for all dive equipment to be CE approved?

Paul

Probably something simple like its harder / less cost effective to make your own regulators / computers etc.

That and the people who wrote it would have to replace that home made reel they've had for 30 years. ;-)

Philip Smith

02-05-2003, 19:59

I wonder why "Safe Diving Practises" makes no mention of the requirement for all dive equipment to be CE approved?

Perhaps because the requirement is on suppliers, not users. SDP might recommend that potential users check that a product has CE marking, with the caveat that a CE mark is not a guarantee that a product is safe.

Philip Smith

Paul B

02-05-2003, 20:08

:=I wonder why "Safe Diving Practises" makes no mention of the requirement for all dive equipment to be CE approved?

Perhaps because the requirement is on suppliers, not users. SDP might recommend that potential users check that a product has CE marking, with the caveat that a CE mark is not a guarantee that a product is safe.

Philip Smith

Philip

The point I am making is that in the case of rebreathers, no CE mark (or equivelant) no diving (within BSAC branches. Surely this must be the case for all equipment?

Paul

Philip Smith

03-05-2003, 11:34

The point I am making is that in the case of rebreathers, no CE mark (or equivelant) no diving (within BSAC branches. Surely this must be the case for all equipment?

Yes, I understand, but as far as I know it is not currently a condition of BSAC insurance that all equipment must be CE marked. Rebreathers have always been treated as a special case in BSAC, because of their perceived dangerousness. Currently, this means that rebreather models must be approved by BSAC and CE marking has been adopted as one of the prerequisites for approval.

Philip Smith

Chris Walker

04-05-2003, 21:06

As the first person enquired where does that leave him, well UP smelly stuff, Creek & Paddle comes to mind. Personal responsibility died long ago, you can't even legally sign a disclaimer now days. Everyone does it, but it's not worth the paper it's written on :(

The CE or other Government approval is Borrocks, designed to protect BSAC from the lawyers due to the meddling Eurocrats that have screwed up our legal system further & introduced pathetic laws for pathetic people to hide behind.

You can prove this by going & buying any piece of dive kit you like & strapping it on your back & no BSAC DO or head honcho will say anything, unless it's a rebreather then they all run for there lawyers aprons. They won't check that your gear is in test or that anything is fit for the purpose you intend to use it from. Fact is more than half the diving gear in use is not CE approved, so are they saying we can't sell anything that does not have a CE stamp, I don't think so. The BSAC regs on RB's are full of conflicting info. They say the Insp is approved because of CE stamp, but the regs say all RB's must have an ADV ! Thus the Insp does not qualify. Bob sells an ADV which greatly reduces the divers workload on descent, but breeches the CE mark. APD now do one for the Insp, but as far as I'm aware it has not been resubmitted for CE approval, but strangely you can buy it & BSAC DO's are happy to let you dive the unit with either in place !???????

The CE system is good for general consumer products to ensure that things you buy work (i.e. fit for purpose)& are safe. But the chicken & the egg come to mind when talking low volume units like RB's or any other form of technical break through. Sell your idea for a song to some big manufacturer & they will get it stamped, but if they don't want it, how do you finance the testing to allow you to sell it ? Low volume sales will allow you to get the revenue, but the system excludes you from our FREE market ! It would be simpler to get the government to drop us out of the EC, than to get BSAC out from behind there lawyers to see reality. Interesting that they could have an RB working party, when no RB's were approved, but it seems some slipped under the door ! wonder how that happened ? Strange also how less knowledgeable people who are voted onto a committee can use these things, when those who have gone to the bother of researching & training, plus buying a unit can't !

It was interesting with the BSAC 50th anniversary, where they praise the pioneers & explorers of the day that formed them, then at the same time crucify anyone that tries anything new today. What new technology NO, what a different version NO. We are self proclaimed leaders & you must follow. All I can say is Borrocks to the lot of them, all they are doing is trying to compete with PADI for rec divers & don't care about pioneers or explorers & will continue to do so whilst the world leaves them behind & they become another Great British 'has been'. Tech divers & anyone that wants to dive RB's or any other new technology are leaving them in droves. Mark up another one to the new KISS diver.

Food for thought

Chris W.

Chris Walker

04-05-2003, 22:33

I have some sympathy with BSAC not being prepared to open themselves to litigation. Indeed it's part of their responsibility to their members.
For instance, it's clear that BSAC cannot insure divers using non approved rebreathers,

Interesting then that they can & DO insure divers using NON approved kit, which has never been tested, never been approved & never been CE stamped. I see it on every OC dive that I go on. My regs date from the 80's when CE did not exist, I can train divers & everything with all my NON approved equipment, on any Club dive & no worries. I don't recall a single incidence of any diver death, where the authorities checked the validity of the equipment in use, other than whether it was functional or not if it was recovered !

There is the same 'Oh My' lawyer avoidance in my BSAC club, we can't let you dive that because the coroner might hold the DO liable if you died etc etc. There is to the best of my knowledge not one single case in the UK where anyone has made a successful claim against another individual, or non commercial entity. The failing on all attempts as I see has been the universal preaching that diving is dangerous & the responsibility lies with the individual diver, with only a duty of care to his buddy, if he had one. Because there are usually only 2 divers in the water that know what really happened & one of them is usually dead, it is very difficult, no practically impossible to disprove the word of the survivor !

To the best of my knowledge BSAC has never been prosecuted for any divers death, or attempted to be prosecuted. Rebreathers aren't going to change that. Even if they were, the BSAC is limited in its liability & if it's not, then it should be ! But then again, they are only recommendations, and as such all members are free to ignore them if they choose, so long as they can convince the jobs worth?s in their own club that it's OK.

Chris W.