Am I missing something? [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

ChristianG

18-01-2011, 22:48

£280 for a 1st, 2nd and octopus with gauges and a BCD is a real bargain as far as I can see.

This is my first kit so I figures that if I don't like some of it, I can always upgrade later.
Allow me to add that the internet is littered with "I can always upgrade later" SCUBA kit mostly available at bargain prices but which is only of interest to the unwary and/or naive.

To be honest I was second away from spending this on the regs (oceanic) alone the other day.
Oceanic make pretty good gear, my own regs are Oceanics (though for a particular purpose - I tend to photograph things u/w). What you perhaps have failed to realise is that Oceanic have a lifetime warranty on parts so if you need to get the reg serviced it'll cost you the technician's time and effort but the bits to be replaced are "free". That can add up to a significant saving over time.

Can't wait to pass my OW and join a BSAC branch.
There are lots, myself included, who would argue that you're trying to run before you can walk. You're not even a diver and yet you are already buying kit? My usual advice for new divers (note that) is that they should resist buying anything shiny until they have an idea of the style of diving that they're interested in, that they should beg, borrow (your BSAC Club will often be good for that), hire equipment, and keep copious notes because it will otherwise become a blur. In fact, how do you know that you will become a diver? Many a learner decides this diving lark is not for them (I commend them for doing so - diving is definitely not for everyone).

It's very tempting to buy, well, anything at all, in the first blush of a new hobby - but "wait and see" is a significantly better idea, especially for your wallet's sake.

Orphus

18-01-2011, 23:19

Valid comments Christian, however the points you raise are really a matter of personal choice.

For me, I'm enjoying the experience of learning to dive, and the cost of any equipment i choose to buy is part of the cost of this enjoyment for me even if i choose not to continue diving regularly. Worst case scenario, i choose not to continue diving but sent a few hundred pounds having a great time, seems like good value to me. This is the reason I'm not rushing out to buy the best kit possible.

In the pool sessions ive had so far and in the OW dives I've done on holiday, I've always had different regs and BCDs. As far as I can see, trying to get used to new kit every time I step into the water is going to hinder my learning, and certainly won't support it.

My thinking is that if i get my own kit, at least I can improve my buoyancy skills etc without having to pick up the charactiatics of a new BCD every time I get in the water. Once I gain some experience then i might want to experiment.

As i said ,these are all personal points so think it's a bit unfair to imply naivety because I've bought some kit.

J

Richard Whitcombe

19-01-2011, 00:31

What you perhaps have failed to realise is that Oceanic have a lifetime warranty on parts so if you need to get the reg serviced it'll cost you the technician's time and effort but the bits to be replaced are "free". That can add up to a significant saving over time.

There is small print on that. Firstly it has to be a recognised Oceanic dealer (if you can find one or have one near you). Secondly, if you miss a service in theory the guarantee is null and void. I know a few people caught out by that.

Ron MacRae

19-01-2011, 08:15

In the pool sessions ive had so far and in the OW dives I've done on holiday, I've always had different regs and BCDs. As far as I can see, trying to get used to new kit every time I step into the water is going to hinder my learning, and certainly won't support it.

What you say is true. However some clubs will therefore hire you a set of kit for the duration of the OD course. I strongly agree with not buying kit before completeing OD. However if you have money to burn that's up to you.

Ron.

ChristianG

19-01-2011, 09:28

That means they are cold water regs. Regs are either certified below 10 or not, there is no other graduation for temperature
That may be so in the UK. :D

It's not so here in Oz, I don't believe we have such a certification at all, but I expect a certain Richard, who hails from deepest, coldest and darkest Tasmania (which he correctly states is not part of NZ) to come out of the woodwork any moment now to put me in my place. :eek:

For those of you not particularly geographically erudite, Tassie is that bit of an island somewhere south of Victoria whose main claim to fame is the annual Boxing Day Sydney to Hobart Yacht Race. Our cartographers regularly seem to forget Tassie when doing maps of Oz - Taswegians have a bit of a complex about that. Incidentally we might call it a "bit of an island" but it's still a tad over 52% the area of England so I wouldn't do that if I were an Englishman. Our next smallest state is Victoria which will fit almost exactly 1.75 Englands into it. The next smallest is my state, NSW, when area comparisons start to get a bit ridiculous (6.15x).

There now, that little lot should definitely get him going. ;) :)

John Bantin

19-01-2011, 09:36

That means they are cold water regs. Regs are either certified below 10 or not, there is no other graduation for temperature

I don't believe that anyone dives in water at much less than minus 2 degrees C. I becomes too difficult to swim in.

TerryH

19-01-2011, 10:12

What you say is true. However some clubs will therefore hire you a set of kit for the duration of the OD course. I strongly agree with not buying kit before completeing OD. However if you have money to burn that's up to you.

Ron.

Depends on the club.

We've got loads of quality kit, so students have no need to even buy as
much as a mask, but i've seen other clubs using stuff that the Historical
Diving Society would reject as being too old ;)

In that enviroment it's not surprising that someone might want to get there
own kit.

The BC will sell secondhand on ebay for sub £100 and the regs will easily
make +£100 as a set, so at that price worse case is a loss of £70 odd
and at least 2 years before a service is needed.

Just because they've started diving doesnt mean they'll stick with it or
start doing UK cold/deep stuff, so this will suffice until experience says
it doesnt work anymore and then he can stick it on ebay.

ChristianG

19-01-2011, 13:26

There is small print on that. Firstly it has to be a recognised Oceanic dealer (if you can find one or have one near you). Secondly, if you miss a service in theory the guarantee is null and void. I know a few people caught out by that.
Yes, I happen to know all that and, although my service agent, I in fact used him rather than myself for exactly that reason, was an Oceanic dealer and qualified to service them I personally have never much liked having to get my regs (of whatever manufacture) serviced simply because of a 12 month interval, so it didn't really apply to me anyway. I get my regs serviced because I'm going on an expensive trip, and then use them several times before I go, to make as sure as I can that they're OK. Even that doesn't stop me from taking (at least) a spare (working) 1st stage along.

Woz

19-01-2011, 13:42

The regs are a copy of a basic, unbalanced 1st stage piston (copy of a Scubapro mk2) and simple, unbalanced 2nd stages. The piston performance is usually good and they're really simple so little to go wrong or gum up. The 2nds will be fine but not the smoothest of breathes.

BC is basic, simple lightweight travel BC. Will do you for a while. 420 denier is a bit wussy.

Orphus

19-01-2011, 16:07

Hi Woz,

The Seac website says that the first stage is a balanced piston, see http://www.seacsub.com/product.php?ID=385.

As mentioned, I really wanted my own kit to make sure I had some consistency while learning. They will mainly be used in pool sessions and my open water check dives. If I want to get something a little more heavy weight in future then I'm sure I will have a much better idea of exactly what I'll need (and want!) then.

J

northern_diver

20-01-2011, 04:50

That may be so in the UK. :D

It's not so here in Oz, I don't believe we have such a certification at all, but I expect a certain Richard, who hails from deepest, coldest and darkest Tasmania (which he correctly states is not part of NZ) to come out of the woodwork any moment now to put me in my place. :eek:

For those of you not particularly geographically erudite, Tassie is that bit of an island somewhere south of Victoria whose main claim to fame is the annual Boxing Day Sydney to Hobart Yacht Race. Our cartographers regularly seem to forget Tassie when doing maps of Oz - Taswegians have a bit of a complex about that. Incidentally we might call it a "bit of an island" but it's still a tad over 52% the area of England so I wouldn't do that if I were an Englishman. Our next smallest state is Victoria which will fit almost exactly 1.75 Englands into it. The next smallest is my state, NSW, when area comparisons start to get a bit ridiculous (6.15x).

There now, that little lot should definitely get him going. ;) :)

Just joined a another forum for another part of my life and the MODs there kick people in the head a bit for going on and on and on and on...or off topic:rolleyes: ...dispite that it may be interesting.

P.s maybe British might be more suitable than English, the union and all that and that 3 of the 4 are on the same island.

ChristianG

20-01-2011, 05:27

Oh for heavens sake, a bit of a sensahuma might sometimes not go astray.

Incidentally, the UK goes into Tassie 0.28 x, into Victoria 0.93 x and into NSW 3.28 x. There is actually a point to that, I make it regularly although mostly on the travel pages. You guys, when you first come here, may know that Oz is huge by your standards but more often than not you do not have any concept of how huge "huge" actually is and promptly think that driving between our closest state capitals (Sydney and Brisbane) is a "before lunch" doddle when in fact the distance is considerably further than your furthest apart major cities which I take to be London and Aberdeen. It could be London and Belfast but that's also an oversea journey so I don't count it, which also applies to Hobart and Melbourne.

Incidentally, the UK fits into Oz pretty well exactly 31.5 x.

So sue me! :mad:

PeteM

20-01-2011, 07:33

Just joined a another forum for another part of my life and the MODs there kick people in the head a bit for going on and on and on and on...or off topic:rolleyes: ...dispite that it may be interesting.

Our attitude is that the threads here are like a conversation between a big group in a pub. It starts in one direction but may wander about a bit or split in to sub conversations but providing people stick to the rules we see no reason to intervene.

Besides if the thread drifts then a new thread on the new subject will not include the back story to why the subject came up

Orphus

21-01-2011, 12:22

OK, so back on topic... :rolleyes:

The kit arrived this morning and to me it looks great. Regulator already assembled as requested (went for DIN) including the BDC hose.

Not bad considering was ordered on Tuesday and came from Italy.

I have a pool session tomorrow so can't wait to try it out, just hope the LDS where I'm training don't take too much offence to me sourcing kit elsewhere (however the identical package is actually available there for a cool £499).

J

Roz

21-01-2011, 17:37

The kit arrived this morning and to me it looks great....just hope the LDS where I'm training don't take too much offence to me sourcing kit elsewhere....
*Stand on Soapbox* *Sigh*

Not sure how long they will remain trading as your LDS if you source all your equipment elsewhere. If they close down how much further are you going to have to drive to get air fills, servicing, training etc?

*Step down from Soapbox*

Orphus

21-01-2011, 22:07

I didn't source all my equipment from elsewhere. I appreciate that my LDS can provide advice and a personal service which is why for mask, fins etc I bought these from them. However there has to be a line drawn somewhere, is that advice and service worth £220, almost doubling the cost of the kit? I am very doubtful that anyone would think so.

It's such a shame that so many members on this forum are keen to respond in such a condescending manner. So far in this thread I've been called naive and now reprimanded for not paying over the odds for my first set of kit.

Reading through other threads on the forum this seems to be a common theme; newbies are patronized and arguments galore between the old hands. Guys, you aren't promoting the club culture in the best way.

Thanks to all of you who have provided helpful advice, to everyone else, i really hope this forum isn't indicative of what to expect IF I join a branch (I'm beginning to have second thoughts)

J

northern_diver

21-01-2011, 23:23

Our attitude is that the threads here are like a conversation between a big group in a pub. It starts in one direction but may wander about a bit or split in to sub conversations but providing people stick to the rules we see no reason to intervene.

Besides if the thread drifts then a new thread on the new subject will not include the back story to why the subject came up

Back story...why would you want a back story? I was under the impression this was a informal forum, not a chat room.

Maybe a seperate forum area what could be called something like 'locker room' or 'the cabin' (not quite 'we do other stuff')or whatever, for all the dross that is just people 'say' which has nothing at all to add to the thread, though may be actually interesting, in some way. e.g. OZ geography, handy to know, especially the relative scale comparisons which were ever so helpfully add. Especially if your going to OZ. But has not purpose in this thread.

Maybe im just been moody, maybe looking for some streamlining of thread.

John

ChristianG

22-01-2011, 01:31

So far in this thread I've been called naive
I was going to let this go but now that you have made a direct accusation ...

I said:

Allow me to add that the internet is littered with "I can always upgrade later" SCUBA kit mostly available at bargain prices but which is only of interest to the unwary and/or naive
I was extremely careful how I worded that. In the context in which it was written you, specifically, were the seller thus making the prospective purchasers "unwary" and/or "naive".

How you can possibly accuse me of having called you naive is beyond me.

Orphus

22-01-2011, 02:26

Christian, I'm not going to argue, but if you need to be extremely careful in how you word something, then that's a good indicator that you're likely to cause offense.

Like Northerndiver suggested, we should all stay on topic. As a beginner diver I asked for some advice on specific kit I was looking at, yet responses included telling me that I shouldn't be buying kit anyway or where I should be buying the kit from, regardless what I buy.

I think it's probably best to leave this thread now as no value is being added to the topic.

Just a mention to the moderators, being a new user. Don't you think it would be good idea to have a no flame policy for this forum in particular to avoid newbies being berated by the more experienced divers?

J

mikecsmith

22-01-2011, 02:38

I was definitely unwary when I first purchased my kit. I think the only thing I have left from the original set are my computer, a TX50 second stage and an ATX 40 octo which I have in a bag somewhere. I've sold on/binned two drysuits, a DST, fins, two BCDs, a crap reel and a bunch of other random bits.

Wish I'd been smarter about my kit purchases and listened to the advice I received, would have saved about £400-500. My kit is all modular now and gives me cheap upgrade options, for example, I normally dive a single tank with a wing and a BP, but I've just purchased a new wing I can use for twin 12s, another DS4, buddy bands and a new SPG for £130 all in. I can switch between the systems easily depending on the diving I want to do (which will mainly be single tank stuff still).

If you'd gone down the second hand route, you could have picked up an ally backplate for about £30, a new Apeks WTX3 for £120ish, a 2nd hand set of apeks regs for about £130-150. Putting you at somewhere between £280-300 for a set of equipment you could have easily (and cheaply) upgraded as your diving progresses.

I should add I totally sympathise with why you bought the set, I did exactly the same thing when I got into UK diving, but if you stick with it I'm guessing you'll soon sell it on and buy different equipment.

GaryC

22-01-2011, 08:41

*Stand on Soapbox* *Sigh*

Not sure how long they will remain trading as your LDS if you source all your equipment elsewhere. If they close down how much further are you going to have to drive to get air fills, servicing, training etc?

*Step down from Soapbox*
I have heard this so many times. It seems to justify supporting LDS with high costs or in some cases bad service (you didn't say that but I have heard it from others). They are businesses and they compete like other businesses.

If people can get there kit online at much reduced prices then they should do that. It is not right to try and make people feel guilty for going else where.

However with my own LDS, I will tell them what I can get kit from in other places and they have the chance to meet that price or not.

To give them there due, they do match most of the time. Even competing with a larger "Dive Supermarket" in an adjacent town.

Gary

GaryC

22-01-2011, 08:55

Forums are one of the best places and one of the worst places to get advice on buying dive kit. It depends on who you get. There are other forums that If I told someone I hated bolt snaps and use the nice italian style carabener then I would be taken out and stoned to death. Folk have personal opionions and unfortunatley some people will tell you off for not doing what they think is right.

You have to weed out the good advice and ignore the other stuff. Then if thats what you want then go out and buy it. The stuff you got sounded fine. One day you will want replace it with something else. The main info to listen to is safety i.e cold/warm reg etc.

Live and let live.

Gary

Ron MacRae

22-01-2011, 11:46

Thanks to all of you who have provided helpful advice, to everyone else, i really hope this forum isn't indicative of what to expect IF I join a branch (I'm beginning to have second thoughts)

As one of the people who gave you advice you didn't like I think you are being too sensitive. I don't see anyone here giving you a particularly hard time?

IMO the advice I gave was good. and has been repeated elsewhere by others, it's not new, it's given to most new starters who start talking about buying kit. Of couse you are at liberty to ignore it, that doesn't make it bad advice.

If you ask for advice you are always going to get some you like and some you don't. You would get the same advice from many clubs, mine anyway. Same advice was given to me when I started diving. I'm glad I listened.

Ron.

Ron MacRae

22-01-2011, 12:07

I have heard this so many times. It seems to justify supporting LDS with high costs or in some cases bad service (you didn't say that but I have heard it from others). They are businesses and they compete like other businesses.

There is a balance to be struck here. Of course you can't buy from your LDS if you can get it £200 cheaper elsewhere. However I do think we do have to protect our LDSs.

My LDS closed 5 years ago. My only way to get a nitrox fill was 4 hours driving, one hour each way twice, to be treated like dirt by one of the bigger dive shops on the coast who have no clue about customer service. It got to the point where I almost stopped diving due to cost and inconvenience.

I now am lucky to have two good LDSs close to hand. I don't want to loose either and if they can get close to the best price I'll take a small hit, but not £200.

The statement Roz made was a good general point, but perhaps not for this case. If the LDS wasn't willing/able to match the best price then I agree they shouldn't get the business, but you should give them the chance to try.

Ron.

bythesea

22-01-2011, 15:40

I am wondering about the LDS bit, do you do your food shop at the supermarket, good prices, free parking or do you go to you local shop, high prices, pain to park?

Dives shops need to adapt, just like every other business, one of my local dive shops does a roaring trade online selling spear fishing kit to free divers as well as online dive gear, they found a way to stay in business. Darwin theory, the strong survive.

As for the kit the OP bought, good on you for committing to the joys of underwater lounging about and finding stuff at a good price. It is a buyers market.

Personally I would have gone for a set of Apeks ATX40s with gauge, £235 and a second hand buddy off Ebay, about sixty quid but the stuff you have will work, servicing may be a bit more difficult to source than with Apeks but you will be able to breathe, you will have a good time and like the rest of us you will change your kit at least once in the not too distant future.

Ron MacRae

22-01-2011, 17:07

I am wondering about the LDS bit, do you do your food shop at the supermarket, good prices, free parking or do you go to you local shop, high prices, pain to park?

I don't have a local food shop, they've all gone. However I have multiple supermarkets to choose from, if one of them goes bust I don't care.
Don't think it's a good analogy.

The nearest analogy to the LDS situation would be if ALL the food shops closed and you had to drive 4 hours to get food.

Ron.

bythesea

22-01-2011, 17:23

The nearest analogy to the LDS situation would be if ALL the food shops closed and you had to drive 4 hours to get food.

Ron.

How so....

Richard Whitcombe

23-01-2011, 13:02

The nearest analogy to the LDS situation would be if ALL the food shops closed and you had to drive 4 hours to get food.

Ron.

Don't accept that in the slightest. To go diving people need gas. Around major diving areas/ports more people need gas. So there's a market for it.
As long as there's a market for it someone will fit a business model to it.

I don't see fills as being linked to equipment at all. The petrol station doesn't go bankrupt if i don't go in and buy overpriced car cleaning products while fuelling up!

Dive shops have problems - firstly not many of them stock a lot of different brands. That means if you want something specific there's a fair chance a lot of local shops (i hate the term 'LDS'. Annoying american acronym) won't have what you want. The other thing is they're also very expensive. The internet is here to stay. The clever shops have realised this, adapted their model, adapted their prices and are going strong. The dinosaur shops that refuse to admit the internet is around and still trying to protect the much much large profit margin may well die out. And they'd deserve to.

TerryH

23-01-2011, 16:48

The petrol station doesn't go bankrupt if i don't go in and buy overpriced car cleaning products while fuelling up!

Yeah they do.

What they get per litre just about pays for running expenses, actual profit
is gained by sales in the shop. Just about the only petrol only outfit is Asda
and they have volume and lost leaders on there side.

Ron MacRae

23-01-2011, 17:10

Don't accept that in the slightest. To go diving people need gas. Around major diving areas/ports more people need gas. So there's a market for it.
As long as there's a market for it someone will fit a business model to it.

I don't see fills as being linked to equipment at all. The petrol station doesn't go bankrupt if i don't go in and buy overpriced car cleaning products while fuelling up!

The problem with fills is that if you want a specific nitrox mix you can't get it on the day at the port. It takes too long especially if you have an early start, sometimes before the shops open. With a local shop I can drop off my cyls on a Wednesday, pick them up Friday with the correct mix, and go diving on Saturday.

Even getting fills at a port if diving multiple days can be problematic, again especially if you're out early or back late. If I want a nitrox mix I have to hang about for hours if we're off early the next day. I often get poor fills or very wrong mixes. I'm toying with the idea of a second twinset just so I don't have hastles with fills/mixes if diving Saturday & Sunday.

Ron.

bythesea

23-01-2011, 17:42

If I want a nitrox mix I have to hang about for hours

Why, it should take no more than about 15 minutes...

Richard Whitcombe

23-01-2011, 18:06

Why, it should take no more than about 15 minutes...

Never seen that. Its normally "2-3 days" for anything that isn't pre-banked in the places i use.

Id be dubious of anyone offering a partial pressure custom fill on an empty tank in 15 mins both in terms of accuracy and final pressure.

I cant understand this what seems to be a British thing where people are prepared to pay over-the-odds to support dead business models for equipment when there is no need to.

A good dive shop will be competitive on price, may well offer internet sales, gas sales and so on. A lot of the ones around sell stuff 30% higher than you can get online, don't bother with the internet at all and deserve to die.

bythesea

23-01-2011, 18:22

Never seen that. Its normally "2-3 days" for anything that isn't pre-banked in the places i use.

Id be dubious of anyone offering a partial pressure custom fill on an empty tank in 15 mins both in terms of accuracy and final pressure.

Then you need to come down here, not even time to drink my tea, always +/- 1% even when doing it to 300 bar

Richard Whitcombe

24-01-2011, 01:25

Given recommended max O2 rate of 4bar/minute then the air top off with that as well im not convinced 15 mins is possible without breaking the flow rate guidelines.

For partial pressure blend from empty obviously.

bythesea

24-01-2011, 11:15

im not convinced

Oh well.....I will set the stop watch next time I am getting a fill...

Ron MacRae

24-01-2011, 11:27

Then you need to come down here, not even time to drink my tea, always +/- 1% even when doing it to 300 bar

Lucky you. I don't think that's the norm.

Without a local shop for fills I'd be seriously inconvenienced.

Ron.

GaryC

24-01-2011, 12:00

Without a local shop for fills I'd be seriously inconvenienced.

I guess that is where part of the problem is. And also why some people get on their Soap Box and start to preach about the Local Dive Shop being a community service and all that.

Our club has it's own compressor and soon will have NITROX facilities. So we are not reliant on it to the same extent as individuals and some other clubs even.

I really don't want to be susidising other peoples diving so for me if I buy anything I get the cheapest (also factor in service here too). I will more often than not ask the shop to give me a price and normally they match the Internet prices. Ours are also quite a friendly bunch, but from what I hear not all are like this.

So local dive shops need to complete with the Internet AND provide very good service, and some of them need to stop the moral blackmail that goes on, and get off their soap boxes.

Gary

bythesea

24-01-2011, 15:24

Given recommended max O2 rate of 4bar/minute

Just did a little maths as I had a mo, so 4bar/min for the O2

32%, 12 ltr 232 needs 31 bar O2 in an empty tank

@4 bar/min = 7.75 min, leaving 7.25 min to top off with air.... plenty of time

Richard Whitcombe

24-01-2011, 16:46

Just did a little maths as I had a mo, so 4bar/min for the O2

32%, 12 ltr 232 needs 31 bar O2 in an empty tank

@4 bar/min = 7.75 min, leaving 7.25 min to top off with air.... plenty of time

Not all compressors can pump 200+ bar in 6-7 minutes. Plus time to swap whips if needed and so on. 15 mins is pushing it. And assumes the person doing the filling is available immediately and hasn't got anything else to do.
In most shops this person filling is also servicing gear, answering phones and everything else.

Roz

24-01-2011, 18:30

So local dive shops need to complete with the Internet AND provide very good service, and some of them need to stop the moral blackmail that goes on, and get off their soap boxes.Gary

AFAI LDS do not do moral blackmail and I find that comment distasteful and offensive. I agree absolutely that amongst many things a successful Dive Centre needs to provide, they should include on the list excellent customer service and they should also charge fair prices. But compete absolutely on price with the internet? With the internet you are paying for someone to pick an item off the shelf (possibly in a warehouse) and post it to you. End of. That's it. At a high street dive centre you are also paying for service and experience, ie Equipment counselling. (Seeing if it fits you and if it doesn't what is a better solution, matching the equipment to the style of diving you are doing now and in the future, physically putting it together perhaps etc). Depending on the piece of equipment and the knowledge base of the customer it's not unreasonable to say that this can sometimes be a couple of hours. In two hours an internet shop can make a heck of a lot more sales than a centre giving 1-2-1 personal focused equipment counselling. Therefore from a business point of view (and this statement refers to any business by the way) this experience, knowledge and time has to come at a price that tends to be higher than the internet.

Just to clarify I don't own a shop, run, manage or have any connections to a Local Dive Shop. I have however set up and run one in the past, and I have a number of colleagues who run Dive Shops / Centres so I know the price of equipment and how much it costs to run a Dive Centre / Shop. I find it laughable that it is assumed there is a large profit in running a Local Dive Centre. (If you're looking for an industry that makes massive profits just look at the Restaurant sector. 300% mark up on wine for instance). Back in the Diving World there isn't that much slush after all the bills have been paid. If you asked the owner to compare the hours they work to the amount they take home as a salary, you'll be looking at minimum wage or below for v. long antisocial hours. For instance Open Water Courses ought to be priced out at £500 / £600 but that's another story.

My original posting was to highlight that it is all very well getting kit off the internet, BUT if you want your LDS to be there when you need it, it does need some support. Otherwise in time to come you will end up driving miles for fills, etc. I'm only stating the bleedin' obvious and petrol isn't getting any cheaper.....

bythesea

24-01-2011, 19:10

Sometimes Richard, you just have to accept things...

However many but ifs you put forward it does not change the facts.

Worse case scenario was one day I dropped the twins in, the guy was busy, I went off to do a job, popped back in on the way past two hours later and picked them up...

So, is it possible, yes

Does it happen, yes

Are all shops geared up for it, no.... fortunately mine is, maybe this is why they survive

Richard Whitcombe

24-01-2011, 19:18

AFAI LDS do not do moral blackmail and I find that comment distasteful and offensive.

Ive witnessed first hand stores trying the moral blackmail trick. Won't put names on here but it does happen.

But compete absolutely on price with the internet? With the internet you are paying for someone to pick an item off the shelf (possibly in a warehouse) and post it to you. End of. That's it.

..and many succesfull dive centres have a physical shop AND an internet business and charge the same for either store. They survive and make money.

At a high street dive centre you are also paying for service and experience, ie Equipment counselling. (Seeing if it fits you and if it doesn't what is a better solution, matching the equipment to the style of diving you are doing now and in the future, physically putting it together perhaps etc).

Is it really worth in some cases £100 more for someone to say "yeah that fits". Not all dive centres have expert advice. Misplaced advice maybe but not always expert. Again ive witnessed people sold things that dont fit purely because its all they had in stock, trainees being sold new regs as their perfectly good old ones they got 2nd hand were "too old to service" when they're 3 years old and Apeks. I've had them refuse to fill tanks bought online as "the internet shops aren't safe".
Just by going into a shop and paying more money doesnt mean you get better service or advice, often its worse.

Depending on the piece of equipment and the knowledge base of the customer it's not unreasonable to say that this can sometimes be a couple of hours. In two hours an internet shop can make a heck of a lot more sales than a centre giving 1-2-1 personal focused equipment counselling.

The "equipment counselling" is a nice PADI word they trot out in IDCs but its just another word for "selling the shops stock." Most shops stock a limited number of brands so that immediately limits choice to something that the customer may not want or need. A lot of them will still push that gear. Its not as bad as America where its full on hard sell always but it does go on here.
There aren't many shops you can walk in and get completely impartial advice.

The internet is here to stay and people aren't made of money. The sensible shops adjust and compete. They diversify their business, re-do their pricing model, launch themselves online. The others dont and deservedly fail.

Orphus

24-01-2011, 20:57

Really pleased to see there are some more balanced points of view on here, however find it a really disappointing to find myself with a negative reputation for defending my personal choices. :(

I have to agree that no consumer should be expected to support a business at huge cost to themselves. All consumers deserve valu for money, and sometimes that service offered by dive shops is absolutely worth it. I spent £70 on my first mask and snorkel, knowing that I needed help choosing the right one and making sure it fits. I now know I could have sourced the same kit online for less than £50, but the £20 was worth it to make sure I got the right ones.

Would I need to spend £200 extra for my regs and BCD, I hope not! And I didn't.

If we change the context a little here, let's say you have two local dive shops, but only one offers nitrox. The one offering nitrox has a 20% mark up on kit. Do you pay 20% extra for all your kit to make sure the shop stays open for your nitrox fills, or do you look for an alternative?

I hope i don't increase my negative rep rating any further, I've only been on the forums a few weeks! Maybe I should learn to keep quiet!

J

Richard Whitcombe

24-01-2011, 21:00

If we change the context a little here, let's say you have two local dive shops, but only one offers nitrox. The one offering nitrox has a 20% mark up on kit. Do you pay 20% extra for all your kit to make sure the shop stays open for your nitrox fills, or do you look for an alternative?

Id just dive air :)

Orphus

24-01-2011, 21:09

Fair enough. :rolleyes:

GaryC

24-01-2011, 23:11

AFAI LDS do not do moral blackmail and I find that comment distasteful and offensive.
My comment was not meant to be either distasteful or offensive but it is part of my experience of a number of Dive shops over the last 20 years. Starting in week one of my diving career, when I was told that I needed to buy from the club shop as it benifitted the club. It didn't as the club was part of a school and never saw any money from the shop. The club and school eventually parted way. I have also heard this discussion at other places over the years. I have also heard others say this too. The current dive shop in our town have never said this however.

At a high street dive centre you are also paying for service and experience, ie Equipment counselling. (Seeing if it fits you and if it doesn't what is a better solution, matching the equipment to the style of diving you are doing now and in the future, physically putting it together perhaps etc). Depending on the piece of equipment and the knowledge base of the customer it's not unreasonable to say that this can sometimes be a couple of hours. In two hours an internet shop can make a heck of a lot more sales than a centre giving 1-2-1 personal focused equipment counselling.

What you are saying can be true. Equally some shops can be quite dismissive. It also worries me that a Dive Shop is not always the best place to get advice about diving equipment. They are there to sell equipment, not give un-biased advice. If a dive shop does deliver good service and advice and they are perceived to be fair, then it will attract more customers without people having to blindly go there to support it.

I find it laughable that it is assumed there is a large profit in running a Local Dive Centre. (If you're looking for an industry that makes massive profits just look at the Restaurant sector. 300% mark up on wine for instance). Back in the Diving World there isn't that much slush after all the bills have been paid. If you asked the owner to compare the hours they work to the amount they take home as a salary, you'll be looking at minimum wage or below for v. long antisocial hours. For instance Open Water Courses ought to be priced out at £500 / £600 but that's another story.

I have never assumed that Dive Shops have high profits. I have a feeling that the manufacturers get most of that. But to be honest their profit margin is not my concern. I want to be able to buy my equipment cheaply. I am not there to subsidise the shop. It is nice to just pop over to the shop and buy the odd thing or dump kit for repair or serviceing so I always check their pricing policy before buying. As I said before they quite often price match. If they do then they get my business.

My original posting was to highlight that it is all very well getting kit off the internet, BUT if you want your LDS to be there when you need it, it does need some support. Otherwise in time to come you will end up driving miles for fills, etc. I'm only stating the bleedin' obvious and petrol isn't getting any cheaper.....
Your point is valid but dive shops need to understand that the customer is #1 and they need to work hard at their service and their prices (and I guess their courses) If they don't then people will go else where. Price and service and friendlyness is what is required. Not preaching from soap boxes. There is a spectrum of shops out there, some very good, others not so. There will be casualties.

Gary

Roz

25-01-2011, 00:56

I guess that I am feeling frustrated that it seems to me that Dive Centres and Shops are pretty much consistently painted as "the bad guys" on this Forum. Posters are told that divers will get wrong / bad / incorrect advice or just be sold what has the best markup, not what is right for the diver.

When I worked in a Centre I'd spend hours counselling divers on equipment for some of them to take all my knowledge and spend their money buying stuff on the internet. And I've watched this happen in other dive centres too. And then divers wonder why the staff can be a tad jaded and cynical.

There were several times I'd suggest that a diver didn't buy a specific piece of kit because it wasn't right for them at that point. (I remember one very determined open water student wanting to buy a 100lb twin bladder OMS system and he wouldn't take "please wait a bit" as an answer). And no I wasn't trying to make a sale with something else, I was just trying to stop them from making a mistake. I thought it better that they waited, got some knowlege base and then came back to make a proper informed purchase in the future that was right for them. I would work to the mantra "would I take this off the shelf and dive it myself"? If I couldn't say yes, I couldn't and wouldn't sell it.

If any equipment came in for servicing it would be labelled and taken to the Service Bay. There is one regulator however that came in that truly sticks in my mind as awful and that was a Dive Show sale. The poor diver had ended up with something like an Aqualung First Stage, Poseidon Second Stage and a Scubapro Octopus. I was furious at the company who'd sold the regulator, professionally embarrased for the customer and spend ages pricing up different options for the customer after explaining why this Heinz 57 reg wasn't such a good bargain.

I hate seeing "I want cheap kit" in postings. You want cheap kit, you'll get it. It will fall to bits, not last and fail and then there are complaints about kit quality. There is so much investment and time put research, development and designing life support kit and all the man in the street wants is cheap equipment. You don't do this in any other walk of life, the normal boast is how much you paid for something, ie the more expensive it was the better it was. (Doesn't necessarily follow in diving, but cheap does tend to equal nasty). You don't get this attitude in any other sport. Look at skiiing. If you walked into a Ski shop and asked for discount or cheap kit they'd laugh at you. If you look back through previous postings of mine you'll see a story about a quality mask being discontinued because the manufacturer had changed factories to save money. As a result the mask because cheap, nasty and failed. A real shame because this mask fitted about 95%+ of all faces, was sensibly priced, looked cool and was great to dive.

Divers seem to forget that if you work in a diving centre or run one, you are in it for the love of the spot. Not to make a fortune. You are there to pass on and share your enthusiasm of diving with everyone. So stop painting the dive centres as the bad guys. Not all dive centres / shops are perfect. I totally agree that some centres are better than others and the truly awful ones deserve to go out of businses. But in the main most dive centres are striving to do the very best for their customers so how about not being so hard on them.

Finally the reason I keep on banging the drum of support your local dive centre is simple. I love and support this sport and I really don't want to return to the days of a few big regional centres and that's it. Having to drive for miles for a fill or servicing. It won't happen instantly, but at the rate of attrition this situation will come about in a few years time and I would hate to have to say "I told you so".

GaryC

25-01-2011, 10:26

I am sure your heart is in the right place and that you do love the dive industry. But... when you are working in that industry and at a pretty high level too, then you CAN miss the wood for the trees so to speak.

It is also human nature (and a sad fact of life) that folk are quick to react to bad service but very slow to react to good service. So you are going to hear more bad than good.

I have been an Instructor (with BSAC) since mid 90's and I have done the DO role for about 6 years (on and off) since then. In that role, you become the focus for club members who have issues/problems with shops/centres and even the Internet sites.

One shop in another town has a turn over of staff, some VERY VERY good but others not so. Indeed some the the feedback I have had suggests one member of staff is quite obnoxious. This might be bo$$ocks but when you get the same story from a few people, then you take note.

How does that affect the shop's reputation. Well from a diving club point of view probably not much. We know who the good ones are and who the not so good ones are and accordingly point newbies to the correct person. If someone is coming straight off the street then who knows. It only takes one bad experience to create a lot of bad press. The forums can blow one bad incident/experience, totally out of proportion. (As I am sure you know)

Even with the best will in the world, dive shops can not give broad advice because they just can't hold a broad spectrum of equipment. Envisage the scenario where sales assistant says to customer. " I think you are better with an Apex rather than our Cress XX, go to shop so and so they have it." The sales assistant ain't going to last long there are they? [Was it Miracle on 43rd street or something where they saw that as being good service]

Cheap kit. Bit of a confusing couple of words. As one shop says... " We sell good kit cheap" Thats what folk want. If you spend 2 hours "advising" and then your potential customer buys on the Internet, then it's just too expensive. People will normally pay a little more if the kit can be handed to them, and they know it can be returned/swapped. But quite often some shops have just silly prices. This can not be justified. Better to sell with a little profit than none at all.

I always advise people to Try Try Try. A good Dive shop CAN allow you to do this. Or buy it and if its not right then bring it back.

At the end of the day you have to let people buy what they feel is right unless its down right dangerous. Happened to me early in my diving career with a Dry suit. And that was my in-experience and lack of ability in standing up to the Sales Assistant. I was told I was just a novice and didn't need the other dry suit. But in time I would.

The problem with Ski-ing and indeed sailing to some extent is that the gear is also a fashion statement. That affects diving much less so. Buying dive gear never seems to stop [or is that just me]

We are probably looking at the dive industry from 2 quite different view points. I do and I would advise others to support their local Dive shop, but with the condition that prices are reasonable and that the service is good. Otherwise go else where.

Gary

Jen - Winged Blob

25-01-2011, 10:39

While a visit to the LDS is, among other things, a fine way to while away the hours chatting about diving over a mug of coffee, it’s sometimes not practical in the customer’s daily schedule. The shop may (and mine certainly does!) work very long hours indeed, but once closed, if their late evening shift can then be covered by a continuing online presence, all the better!

And the internet is not a big bad wolf, solely aimed at promoting the ‘cheap and nasty’ ranges above all else. I have spent many hours on the internet researching the specifications of kit, comparing different brands, and reading up on all the reviews and opinions (e.g. on this very forum!)

Hours that are much better spent by me doing such donkey work, rather than tie up the LDS staff for ages in going through it all with me!

I am lucky in any case to have an LDS which constantly reviews and updates its stock and lines of supply, and is passionate about explaining the rationale behind all the items it sells. Besides being willing to try and match price found elsewhere, it also offers club members a discount on all regular purchases. So I can be confident that, after my internet research (which will include investigation of the shop’s own site), my next best step is to approach my LDS.

But I must stress that they do work hard at making that the next best step. Some LDS won’t, and yes, that can discourage potential customers.