Deep (pyle) stops

[Hannah Thompson]

My god you men don't half bitch, and i thought us women were bad for it.......... ;-)

I would have posted this in the thred but feared it would get lost in amoungst the 'other comments'!!!

I've recently completed my Advanced Nitrox course and appart from having my brain fried i was very interested to hear about the deep stops (pyle stops).

The course instructor mentioned them in passing and they sound very interesting. Can anyone tell me more about them? i know you have to add 6m somewhere and divide everythign by 2 but can't remember the exact details.

Cheers
H

[janos]

The course instructor mentioned them in passing and they sound very interesting. Can anyone tell me more about them? i know you have to add 6m somewhere and divide everythign by 2 but can't remember the exact details.

Hannah,

Have a look at:
<a href="http://www.bishopmuseum.org/research/treks/palautz97/deepstops.html" >http://www.bishopmuseum.org/research/treks/palautz97/deepstops.html</a> for a description in his own words. Remember though that he was doing 70m to 100m dives, and he invented Pyle stops as he got out feeling better after these dives.

Since then, a lot of organisations are suggesting that slow ascents and additional stops (ie not rushing straight up to 6m) are A Good Thing for recreational diving. I think NAUI now recommend a stafety stop of 1 at 9m and 1 at 6m, instead of 2 at 6,

Personally, I'm not a hugely deep diver (30m to 40m) and I don't do huge amounts of decompression. But I dive twin 12s and have a shedload of gas, so if I go into deco, or indeed come near my deco limits, then I throw in a few extra stops just for fun.

Laters,
Janos

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

My god you men don't half bitch, and i thought us women were bad for it.......... ;-)

I would have posted this in the thred but feared it would get lost in amoungst the 'other comments'!!!

I've recently completed my Advanced Nitrox course and appart from having my brain fried i was very interested to hear about the deep stops (pyle stops).

The course instructor mentioned them in passing and they sound very interesting. Can anyone tell me more about them? i know you have to add 6m somewhere and divide everythign by 2 but can't remember the exact details.

Hi Hanna

Come on, we're not that bad ;-)

There's loads on the web about Pyle stops, modern decompression theory also seems to support the feeling that "they are a good idea". Here's a particularly good and simple write up on how to calculate them - <a href="http://www.romseysac.com/Deco.htm" >http://www.romseysac.com/Deco.htm</a>

Personally I've been using them for some years now, I've also slowed my ascent rates down to less than 10m/min, I also dive Nitrox all of the time. YMMV but they seem to work for me.

HTH

Keith L

[nick kay]

Hi Hannah

1. Send me an email & I'll send you the stuff I have on Deep/Pyle stops.

2. I tend to use the strategy taught on ERD/Trimix... Add your deepest depth to your 1st mandatory stop depth, divide by 2 &gt; gives you your 1st "voluntary deep" stop, i.e. (to make the maths easy)...

Max: 30m, deepest Mandatory: 6m, gives (30+6)/2 =18m
Next: (18+6)/2 = 12m
Next: (12+6)/2 = 9m
Then do your 6m stop
NOTE:
(1) if you're diving on computer it should take account of the volutary stops (some positively, some negatively)
(2) if you're diving on tables, then your planned time MUST include your voluntary stops (and ascent time)...
(3) if you're deco'ing on Nitrox, then plan your stops or your deco gas to fit, i.e. if you did the above profile, you could gas switch to 50% at the 18m stop
(4) don't forget to plan your gas requirements

Other thoughts...
(1) the stops break the ascent into calmer/more relaxing sections
(2) nice to take a stress-free breather(s) for 1-2mins on the way up
(3) you feel less tired (IMO)
(4) you tend not to get the whole group stacked at the same depth fighting for space on the shot-line

[Chris Cherrington]

I've recently completed my Advanced Nitrox course and appart from having my brain fried i was very interested to hear about the deep stops (pyle stops).


Depending on how you use the accelerated deco and what software/tables you use there are lots of methods. A tip I have found is to lengthen the gas switch for a couple of minutes stop. I use EAN50 and switch at about 20m I use V-Planner for deco data.

There's loads out there on the 'net about this and the previous link to JP Imbert's stuff at the DOC has a good rationale why you should make the stops.

The new Mares M1 RGBM also has deep stops in its software. If they bring out a multi-gas model it should be a useful tool when using a nitrox backgas.

Chris

[nick kay]

Depending on how you use the accelerated deco and what software/tables you use there are lots of methods. A tip I have found is to lengthen the gas switch for a couple of minutes stop. I use EAN50 and switch at about 20m I use V-Planner for deco data.

&gt;&gt; CAUTION... If you swap to EAN50 at 20m you're breaking BSAC's guidelines/recommendations/rules/whatever that limit you to Max ppO2 of 1.40

[Nigel Hewitt]

&gt;&gt;Depending on how you use the accelerated deco and what software/tables you use there are lots of methods. A tip I have found is to lengthen the gas switch for a couple of minutes stop. I use EAN50 and switch at about 20m I use V-Planner for deco data.

&gt; CAUTION... If you swap to EAN50 at 20m you're breaking BSAC's guidelines/recommendations/rules/whatever that limit you to Max ppO2 of 1.40

And if you carry a second deco gas of 100% you can blow both recomendations on one dive.

HTH

[iainmsmith]

And if you carry a second deco gas of 100% you can blow both recomendations on one dive.

Hactually...they dropped the ban on O2 some time ago. Unfortunately no-one told anyone, but changes were made to various documents on-line. I only found out about it when Mike Rowley pointed it out on a thread.

The relevant document is linked below.

Apart from the rather dubious conclusions regarding the evidence in favour of the current restrictions, the key statement is: "The recommendation for using Nitrox 80...was not in opposition to using 100% oxygen but more to take advantage of the increased safety of using a weaker Nitrox mix as a decompression gas."

SDPs have also been updated to reflect the change in max FO2.

Iain

[Nigel Hewitt]

Hactually...they dropped the ban on O2 some time ago. Unfortunately no-one told anyone, but changes were made to various documents on-line. I only found out about it when Mike Rowley pointed it out on a thread.

Humm... It does read rather like "The success of the ban on vehicles travelling over three miles per hour is evident from the reduction in accidents" as I don't remember many divers toxing at 1.6 last year but O2 is acceptable!

So, provided I can cope with a 4m depth limit, I can take the oxygen rebreather on a club dive. Brighton Pier here I come. That could be fun but I won't have to do Pyle stops on that.

[Mike Rowley]

Nigel

I can understand your cynicism with respect to the current BSAC stance on max PO2. Let me just clarify the current recommendations. For open circuit it is 1.4 bar and for CCR it is 1.3 bar for diving and 1.4 bar for decompression. For SCR it is 1.6 bar based on the gas in the cylinder. I am sure you will be aware that with a SCR the breathing gas will be at a significantly lower PO2 than the cylinder gas. This is the reason for this apparent discrepency.

In respect of 1.6 bar PO2, you are correct in implying that many experts consider this an acceptable upper limit (note the word acceptable, not safe). The expert advice we have received is similar. However, the same expert advice cautioned that running PO2s in excess of 1.6 bar raised the risk of oxygen toxicity considerably and to an unacceptable level, especially where high PO2 had been run throughout the dive.

As you will be aware, bouyancy control has long been a factor in incident statistics. This year poor bouyancy control at or near the surface was identified as a significant factor in a number of fatal incidents.

On pure oxygen at 6m it only needs a drop of 1m to increase the PO2 to 1.7 bar. I am not being patronising here, just making the point. Accuracy of depth gauge and mix analysis may also move this in an adverse direction, not significantly but never the less a possible cumulative factor.

The concensus of opinion was that a recommendation of a maximum PO2 of 1.4 bar gave a reasonable safety margin so it was decided to continue with this recommendation.

I have no doubt that you and others will say that you can hold a 6m stop with considerable accuracy. I would argue the same for myself and many others I dive with. The recommendation
is a compromise with a built in safety margin. It has a logical rationale behind it and I agree it tends to err on the safe side. It is not a tablet of stone and may well be reviewed at some point in the future as we progress into our own mixed gas courses and certifications.

Enjoy Brighton pier!

Happy Christmas and best wishes for 2005.

Mike



Humm... It does read rather like "The success of the ban on vehicles travelling over three miles per hour is evident from the reduction in accidents" as I don't remember many divers toxing at 1.6 last year but O2 is acceptable!

So, provided I can cope with a 4m depth limit, I can take the oxygen rebreather on a club dive. Brighton Pier here I come. That could be fun but I won't have to do Pyle stops on that.

nigelH

[matt]

The concensus of opinion was that a recommendation of a maximum PO2 of 1.4 bar gave a reasonable safety margin so it was decided to continue with this recommendation.

...It is not a tablet of stone and may well be reviewed at some point in the future as we progress into our own mixed gas courses and certifications.

I hope it gets reviewed sooner rather than later. While you're at it can you review the 1.44 caveat for no deco NX dives.

It appears that I am still outlawed from decoing on 80% at 9m because of potential problems with 100% at 6m. Personally I don't go near 100% without a deco station. Sorry but the current concensus, although an improvement, is still a bit of a camel IMHO.

[Nigel Hewitt]

On pure oxygen at 6m it only needs a drop of 1m to increase the PO2 to 1.7 bar. I am not being patronising here, just making the point. Accuracy of depth gauge and mix analysis may also move this in an adverse direction, not significantly but never the less a possible cumulative factor.

The concensus of opinion was that a recommendation of a maximum PO2 of 1.4 bar gave a reasonable safety margin so it was decided to continue with this recommendation.

This is the bit I have problems with Mike.

You make a safety recommendation based on the fact that I can't hold a stop within two meters? I would argue that nobody is two meters out stop holding. It is within one meter or quite likely to be ten meters. A recommended maximum should be just that. If 1.6 is acceptable then I must stay above 1.6 bar and if I can't hold a stop worth a d*m nobody should have passed me to do accelerated deco.

I've looked through last years ascent problems and, as you say, a lot of bad buoyancy control shallow. However unless I've missed one they were all missed stops not people descending from their established stops. Perhaps I've not read the right list.

The trouble with recommendations like this is that it is hard to take them seriously. I'm holding the 6m bar of the trapeze and I flush the CCR to pure oxygen. If this was a club dive that would be naughty but it is 6 degrees and I'd rather buy my extra conservatism on a richer mix than longer in the water.

I stick to the rules on club dives - the DO can put his hand on his heart and say that. That's why I am genuinely pleased that pure O2 is now 'legal'. However that doesn't mean I think these recommendations are straight. You are building margin into margin. 1.6 is a number from exposure tables that are already treated with conservatism. My poor old oxygen rebreather is rated to 20m - now that is overdoing it a bit in my book but I've breathed 1.6bar for too long to view it as a problem. (Well I've breathed 2.7bar O2 but that was on a 'dry' dive).

Sorry it's so long...

[Mike Rowley]

Matt, Nigel,

I am not arguing points here, merely explaining the thinking behind the recommendation. I accept that you disagree but then, we are never going to please everyone.

Do remember though, the recommendation was made with all BSAC divers in mind. Technical divers should have a much better level of buoyancy control and that might possibly influence future thinking. However, some of the fatalities in question were I think, technical divers.

If everone did stops on a trapeze or a shot line this would be much less of a worry. Sadly most do them under DSMBs, sometimes only partially inflated. I have lost count of the number of DSMBs I have seen pulled down.

I think you will find that Brian raised issues around people dying because they almost reached the surface and then sank.

By the way Nigel, be a bit noisy for us to run at 1.6 wouldn't it? When you got out and switched off it would be like having the wife fall out of the car, you might be tempted to think you had gone deaf!

Ouch! I can feel the heat already!

Cheers

Mike

[Nigel Hewitt]

Do remember though, the recommendation was made with all BSAC divers in mind. Technical divers should have a much better level of buoyancy control and that might possibly influence future thinking. However, some of the fatalities in question were I think, technical divers.

Technical divers kill themselves. Sadly it comes with the territory. If it isn't you it's been a good year. I had that with motorcycle racing.

I take your point on DSMBs. It's normally the "I don't need it so I don't take it" macho man with his open ended, inflate by exhaust bubbles, spool rig that I see ready to sink. I bought the crack bottle version because I like mindlessly simple and I don't want to put a line even near my face that is going to pull up. I think there was an entanglement in the incidents.

By the way Nigel, be a bit noisy for us to run at 1.6 wouldn't it? When you got out and switched off it would be like having the wife fall out of the car, you might be tempted to think you had gone deaf!

Huh? I can't purge the system below about 95% and my buoyancy control is reasonable enough that that means I never quite hit 1.6 Getting the buzzer up would be an achievement. Rather like managing to pant it down to 0.4 when starting the prebreath. 8-)

(edit to play with the sig)

[johnkendall]

Do remember though, the recommendation was made with all BSAC divers in mind. Technical divers should have a much better level of buoyancy control and that might possibly influence future thinking.

How many non-technical BSAC divers are qualified to use High PPO2 mixes?

Surely a better way of maintaining a sensible recomendation to cover both Basic Nitrox divers, and Mixed gas deco divers would be to do what most other agencies do and have something like:

Max PPO2 1.4 for bottom gas, and Max PPO2 of 1.6 for Deco gas. Then don't qualify people to carry deco gas until they can hold a stop properly?

Or is that too contraversial to suggest actually failing people if they are not good enough?

John

[iainmsmith]

Technical divers kill themselves. Sadly it comes with the territory. If it isn't you it's been a good year.

Please don't say that where the insurance companies can hear you. I don't think it's particularly accurate, nor particularly helpful.

_I_ know that there was a certain amount of "tongue-in-cheek" - the insurers don't.

Iain

[Nigel Hewitt]

&gt;&gt;Technical divers kill themselves. Sadly it comes with the territory. If it isn't you it's been a good year.

&gt;Please don't say that where the insurance companies can hear you. I don't think it's particularly accurate, nor particularly helpful.

What I am meaning is what most technical agencies teach. That if you haven't faced up to the fact that some tech divers will die every year and if you haven't talked this through with those you will leave behind you are not being honest with them.

Insurance companies use statistics (actuarial tables?) not web postings.

[Ben Field]

&gt; If everone did stops on a trapeze or a shot line this would
&gt; be much less of a worry. Sadly most do them under DSMBs,
&gt; sometimes only partially inflated. I have lost count of the
&gt; number of DSMBs I have seen pulled down.

I find deco under a DSMB to be far safer, easier and keeping a stop depth more accurate.

Using a trapeze is incredibly dangerous and I really don't know why its become so popular, we where "asked" to deco on a trapeze on a recent trip by the skipper and I found that by the end of the dive I'd used twice as much deco and travel gas fighting to hold depth on a station while 11 other people pulled it up and down. All supposedly expert tech divers, half of them on rebreathers (who have very little excuse not to hold a strop perfectly.)

Needless to say I bagged off the station for the rest of the week and floated along side them while they all got tangled up.

I find I can hold a stop to within a foot while holding a DSMB reel (not hanging on it!) I would fail anybody on an "extended range" course who put more than light pressure on their DSMB line. It shows appalling buoyancy control, its causing one arm to work harder (bend risk) it causes people to swim in circles during deco (think about it...) and makes you 10x more likely to birdnest your reel :)

From some of the people I've seen on "deeper" dives this year (45mtrs-70mtrs) alot of them have either got through their extended range or mixed gas courses by the skins of their teeth, been taught by bad instructors or not learnt anything since they did their courses.

Anyway, rant over... :) Happy Christmas folks!

BEN

[nick kay]

Or is that too contraversial to suggest actually failing people if they are not good enough?

John

Sorry to disappoint you John, but people DO fail the Nitrox course and (I understand) ERD...

In all honesty (say 2+ yrs ago) the Advanced Nitrox course had almost become a "pay, turn up & pass" course. That certainly isn't the case today.

[nick kay]

What I am meaning is what most technical agencies teach. That if you haven't faced up to the fact that some tech divers will die every year and if you haven't talked this through with those you will leave behind you are not being honest with them.

Agreed - as far as i remember, the 1st ERD lecture starts with something like "you need to discuss with your loved ones the possibility of you not returning"

[matt]

Using a trapeze is incredibly dangerous and I really don't know why its become so popular, we where "asked" to deco on a trapeze on a recent trip by the skipper

It stops divers being spread all over the ocean and provides a station for extra gas, etc. I would say you have overstated the problems, do not write the technique off after one bad experience.

and I found that by the end of the dive I'd used twice as much deco and travel gas fighting to hold depth on a station while 11 other people pulled it up and down. All supposedly expert tech divers, half of them on rebreathers (who have very little excuse not to hold a strop perfectly.)

Quite possibly. It definately helps to be with people that have used a station before and preferably people you know. If you have questionable divers about there are a number of things that you can do. Clip a John line off on the vertical rope and float away from the bobbing station. Clip something heavy to the horizontal bar to stop divers pulling it up.

It shows appalling buoyancy control,

The point is perhaps what would be happening to these same divers if they were under half inflated DSMBs rather than attached to the relative stability of a station?

From some of the people I've seen on "deeper" dives this year (45mtrs-70mtrs) alot of them have either got through their extended range or mixed gas courses by the skins of their teeth, been taught by bad instructors or not learnt anything since they did their courses.

The question is, should BSAC divers that have invested in good technical training from good instructors and progressed their skills continually, be held to the standard of the lowest common denominator? I tend to think that if we only allow people to be mediocre, we will only ever be mediocre.

[gordon henderson]

My god you men don't half bitch, and i thought us women were bad for it.......... ;-)

I would have posted this in the thred but feared it would get lost in amoungst the 'other comments'!!!

I've recently completed my Advanced Nitrox course and appart from having my brain fried i was very interested to hear about the deep stops (pyle stops).

The course instructor mentioned them in passing and they sound very interesting. Can anyone tell me more about them? i know you have to add 6m somewhere and divide everythign by 2 but can't remember the exact details.

Hi,

Hope you haven't gotten too irritated by the bitching that's gone on in this thread about techie diving :)

Hope you read the links that have been posted so-far. The original one at the Bishop Museum site is probably the best, but in essence , Pyle stops are a way of slowing down the ascent and introducing additional decompression stops much deeper than conventional deco models dictate.

They can be used with any dive computer, and you can calculate them in your head as you ascend. Simply take your deepest depth, add on the depth of your first mandatory stop (or safety stop if you don't have any mandatory decompression to do) divide it by 2, ascend to that stop and wait a short while, then repeat the process until thee is less than 10m between your current Pyle stop and the stop required by the computer.

Heres an example - you are on a 34m dive, and your computer tells you that you have a stop to do at 6m.

Ascend to the first Pyle stop depth - thats 34 + 6 = 40, divide by 2 and you get 20m. Ascend to 20m (at a nice steady rate no faster than 10m/minute). When you get there, look at the minutes number on your dive timer/computer. Wait for it to tick-over to the next whole minute, then wait one more minute. This way, you will pause on your ascent for a minimum of one minute and a maximum of 1 minute 59 seconds.

While waiting, work out the depth of the next stop - in this case, it's (20 + 6)/2 = 13m. Ascend to 13m as before, and do the same trick with the minute counter on your computer or timer; wait for it to clock over to the next whole minute, then wait one minute more.

At this point, the difference bewteen your current depth (13m) and first stop depth (6m) is less than 10m, so you can go directly to your first mandatory stop and complete your decompression as usual.

It might happen that the deepst mandatory stop changes during your Pyle stops - it might decrease, but I'd carry on as if it were still there, and still do a stop at that depth, even though your computer shows it's not required. Do the same 1 minute plus whatevers left.

Does it do any good? Well Richard Pyle seems to think so, and I do them myself when I'm diving with a simple computer rather than tables, as do many 100s if not 1000s of others.

What do you gain? Possibly better and "cleaner" decompression at the expense of a few minutes extra in the water. Seems good to me, and if you are desperate to get out, sooner, (for whatever reason, cold, toilet, eager to get the last flapjack, etc.) you know you can simply go to your dive computer and follow that as you used to do.

Enjoy!

Gordon

[iainmsmith]

:=&gt;&gt;Technical divers kill themselves. Sadly it comes with the territory. If it isn't you it's been a good year.
:=
:=&gt;Please don't say that where the insurance companies can hear you. I don't think it's particularly accurate, nor particularly helpful.

What I am meaning is what most technical agencies teach. That if you haven't faced up to the fact that some tech divers will die every year and if you haven't talked this through with those you will leave behind you are not being honest with them.

And in what way is this different from recreational diving or simply driving your car on the motorway?

Iain

[Ben Field]

&gt; It stops divers being spread all over the ocean

Ascending on DSMB's after mutually calculated BT's gets everone with 100yards, or come up the shot and bag off from a switch or stop depth, once everyones up together they will stay together by nature of any prevailing currents.

&gt; and provides a station for extra gas, etc.

This really shouldn't be an issue for anyone undertaking recreational diving less than 80mtrs or so should it? (Honestly) and we all carry secondry DSMBs in an emergancy colour code don't we?

&gt; I would say you have overstated the problems, do not write
&gt; the technique off after one bad experience.

Agreed, it was an example of one bad experience, I have had several.

(I only went along with it on this occasion to calm a stroppy skipper down after I had expressed doubts of its use on 400ft+ ong wrecks... swimming back to the shot for an ascent wasn't my idea of good sense. :-)

&gt; Clip a John line off on the vertical rope and float away from &gt; the bobbing station.

From a station??? Surely thats unecessary as you should be free floating anyway, we're not talking fixed shot lines here.

&gt; Clip something heavy to the horizontal bar to stop divers
&gt; pulling it up.

Well this one had 10lb of lead and non-floating line (alledgedly)

&gt; The point is perhaps what would be happening to these same
&gt; divers if they were under half inflated DSMBs rather than
&gt; attached to the relative stability of a station?

I suspect these (and other divers) move to the complicated CF of a station because they can't deco under a bag competently.
(Plus it sounds "Techie" and some divers just Lurv to sound techie :)

&gt; The question is, should BSAC divers that have invested in
&gt; good technical training from good instructors and progressed &gt; their skills continually, be held to the standard of the
&gt; lowest common denominator? I tend to think that if we only
&gt; allow people to be mediocre, we will only ever be mediocre.

Agreed but I am always wary of questioning other "experienced" divers, some people can be aggresively defensive of their mediocrity.

One might also ask if the current technical training from any agency is truly sufficent. Most assume diving ability and focus on course skills only, rarely is any core skill examined on these courses IME.

I recall a serious incident of a tox'd gas diver pulled aboard the hardboat, a buddy of mine set about preparing the O2 kit while another diver on the boat stood by lecturing us on how his trimix course hadn't told him to do this and wasn't it dangerous to give a diver oxygen?....

Makes me VERY interested to see what the BSAC include in their gas course when it surfaces. I have high hopes.

BEN

[matt]

Ascending on DSMB's after mutually calculated BT's gets everone with 100yards, or come up the shot and bag off from a switch or stop depth, once everyones up together they will stay together by nature of any prevailing currents.

If the path of decoing divers was anywhere near a shipping channel 100 yards would still be too spread out for my liking. There is also the possibility of localised currents sending divers in opposite directions.

&gt; and provides a station for extra gas, etc.

This really shouldn't be an issue for anyone undertaking recreational diving less than 80mtrs or so should it? (Honestly) and we all carry secondry DSMBs in an emergancy colour code don't we?

I prefer to have spare gas available when Trimix diving. If you do have to bail out of a travel or deco mix, the resulting stop is likely to be significantly longer. You are right you should not need the spare gas, but what if you do? I tend to regard assistance from the boat crew as an absolute last resort, they might be busy at just the time I need them.

&gt; Clip a John line off on the vertical rope and float away from &gt; the bobbing station.

From a station??? Surely thats unecessary as you should be free floating anyway, we're not talking fixed shot lines here.

It is unecessary when everyone has reasonable buoyancy control. If the station is bobbing up and down more than you like a line will give you a meter or so of slack and keep you in contact with the station. Alternatively you could just fin alongside. The bag seems to be the unecessary bit.

&gt; Clip something heavy to the horizontal bar to stop divers
&gt; pulling it up.

Well this one had 10lb of lead and non-floating line (alledgedly)

Hmmm 10Lb is not that much with 11 dodgy divers on.

&gt; The point is perhaps what would be happening to these same
&gt; divers if they were under half inflated DSMBs rather than
&gt; attached to the relative stability of a station?

I suspect these (and other divers) move to the complicated CF of a station because they can't deco under a bag competently.
(Plus it sounds "Techie" and some divers just Lurv to sound techie :)

LOL. Don't know. Due to the short slacks and questionable vis in the Solent we get our lot on DSMBs as soon as possible (Ocean Diver).

Last year a group of us were planning a particular dive and the skipper wanted to use a station. Most of the group were not techie trained and I was a bit concerned that the trapeze plan might go a bit Pete Tong. We had a dry run on a club night and a practise run followed. I was pretty pleased to find all the tags gone when we slipped the tether and even more pleased to find all the divers on the bar. It had been a while since I had used a trapeze myself and I had forgotten how pleasant it can be. The best bit for me was seeing that people were moving on and trying new techniques. The only dissapointment was that the main attraction was blown out, but we will be ready for later this year. Bags are possibly a bit of a lazy option. You need a bit of discipline and divers prepared to work together to use a trapeze successfully.

Agreed but I am always wary of questioning other "experienced" divers, some people can be aggresively defensive of their mediocrity.

I take the view that if I am openly critical of my own performance it might just rub off. I can usually find something that I could have done better to talk about after a dive.

I recall a serious incident of a tox'd gas diver pulled aboard the hardboat, a buddy of mine set about preparing the O2 kit while another diver on the boat stood by lecturing us on how his trimix course hadn't told him to do this and wasn't it dangerous to give a diver oxygen?....

I could recount a tale about some Hardcore (US) East Coast wreck divers I had the misfortune to share a boat with...but not in public ;-)

Makes me VERY interested to see what the BSAC include in their gas course when it surfaces. I have high hopes.

Hmmm. We do not have enough instructors at the bottom end, who is going to teach these new high end courses? I am not sure I share your enthusiasm but I am willing to be proved wrong.

[Paul Oliver]

Thanks for that one Gordon

Sounds very easy and simple to me, well explained.

Paul