View Full Version : Wing or BC?
Hi,
So far all my diving has been single cylinder and I currently use a 12ltr dumpy on a Buddy BCD. I want to start doing some deeper diving next year so I'm looking at options. I do have a set of twin 12's at home but their a bit overkill for what I'm likely to need in the near future. For me twin 7's at 300 bar seem perfect for the sort of club diving I do. Enough gas for 1 deepish dive or 2 shallow dives with the added benefit (for me anyway) if removing some lead from my weight belt.
So I'm likely to be swapping around between single 12's and twin 7's, possibly twin 10's if needed, plus a 3ltr deco cylinder at some stage next year. I'd like to keep my gear standard so I'm wondering whether to continue to use my Buddy BCD with twinning bands (already have the bands and bcd) or get a wing, harness and backplate. I'm tempted to go down the wing route but that might be because I like buying new dive gear I don't need ;-)
What do people think, am I better sticking to the buddy and bands and will that be ok for the different cylinders I'm likely to need? Or would I be better with a wing and harness that I can use for everything?
neil_richardson
12-12-2010, 10:30
a wing will be much more comfortable in the water,,,,,, but, nothing to stop you sticking with your buddy.....
your call... however, you've really got to think where you're going with yourdiving first...
Nigel Hewitt
12-12-2010, 10:34
No. Your basic premise is wrong. Don't keep your gear standard.
Keep your single rig. It works for you and you'll probably get a lots more diving from it.
Build a rig to do the other sort of diving be it a twinset and wing or whatever.
Get both just right for you for the job you want them to do. Anything else is a botch.
Richard Whitcombe
12-12-2010, 12:13
Id never recommend a BCD for twins of any sort - do it properly wit a metal plate, properly shaped and designed wing and so on. If you want to go to proper manifold twins you definitely don't want a BCD and buddy bands!
My advice is if you like the seemingly BSAC only standard issue BCD for singles then keep it for singles, take it on holiday and so on but get a proper wing setup for twins.
You'll also find it wont drop much if any lead off your belt!
Personally i dive a single tank wing as i find it massively more comfortable than any BCD ive tried and would never happily do an open water dive in a BCD again unless forced and i own a different size wing for my twins.
ChristianG
12-12-2010, 12:49
Personally i dive a single tank wing as i find it massively more comfortable than any BCD ive tried and would never happily do an open water dive in a BCD again unless forced and i own a different size wing for my twins.
Many years ago I went to see my friend Charlie who used to build these new-fangled (then) wings.
He threw one at me said that it should fit me and to try it out for myself. I came back a couple of weeks later and said "emmuchisit?" I paid for it without a quibble and, later still got it from my favourite dive shop (whose owner, since retired, is still very much a mate of mine) who said that it would cost exactly what I'd already paid. It took me a while to make him realise that I, in fact, had already paid for it.
Never looked back.
As Nigel said: Keep the BCD for singles and get a proper wing (Frog, Halcyon if you can afford it) for doubles. Compromise, especially in something as unforgiving as SCUBA, is never a good idea. Alternatively put, a compromise solution will be something you will actively seek to avoid once were to you learn better, and you would.
I (and my wife) dive a Dive Rite Transpac harness. It travels well.
We dive twin 12's manifolded and 1 or 2 stages (sometimes 12L stages).
The wing is a Dive Rite REC EXP Wing. It has enough lift for that setup.
When diving singles, we change the wing only for the Dive Rite Travel EXP wing which suits a 12L single much better and we fit the single cylinder bands.
Everything else stays the same on the harness. My wife has weight pouches on her harness, I dive a rubber weight belt but essentially everything else is the same.
hth
Andy (treerat)
12-12-2010, 13:56
I dive a wing, normally with a 12l, sometimes with a pony. The backplate carrires an Eclipse cell, this is great for a single.
It will also allow me to carry a small twin set and if required a larger twin set with a larger cell.
A simple undo of 2 wingnuts allows me to change between the different options with the same harness and plate. Personally I like the idea of keeping kit simple and not having too many different configerations.
If you are happy with the BCD so be it, but I'd be going for a harness, plate and then appropiate cell for teh gas cylinders carried.
Turtle Dude
12-12-2010, 14:16
I echo the advice to keep your BC for singles and holidays and get a backplate and wing for twins.
The one thing I would add is that you don't need to spend a fortune on such a set up (as I first did - doh!). Backplates are pretty much backplates and make for good S/H purchases - Ali or Steel. There are lots of different wing types, but they are al pretty much interchangeable with backplates, and again good makes make good S/H purchases.
MikeTonge
12-12-2010, 20:44
Hi,
So far all my diving has been single cylinder and I currently use a 12ltr dumpy on a Buddy BCD. I want to start doing some deeper diving next year so I'm looking at options. I do have a set of twin 12's at home but their a bit overkill for what I'm likely to need in the near future. For me twin 7's at 300 bar seem perfect for the sort of club diving I do. Enough gas for 1 deepish dive or 2 shallow dives with the added benefit (for me anyway) if removing some lead from my weight belt.
Just a quick one on the 7's. Twin 7's at 300 bar are great if you'll be able to get 300bar fills. Otherwise you won't ever get two decent dives out of them. If you've got the twin 12's at home I'd use them as you can never have too much gas (also the weight difference isn't that big).
Mike
No. Your basic premise is wrong. Don't keep your gear standard.
Keep your single rig. It works for you and you'll probably get a lots more diving from it.
Build a rig to do the other sort of diving be it a twinset and wing or whatever.
Get both just right for you for the job you want them to do. Anything else is a botch.
I can understand having a couple of diving sets of kit. I do some instructing in our club and will be doing more in the future so I have a "pool set" that I use just for that which is setup as would be expected for training.
I guess what I was thinking was that if I had a standard backplate and harness and just changed the wing depending on what cylinders I was using that - then that would mean everything was in the same place on every dive rather than having different kit for a 20m dive than a 40m dive (if you get what I mean!?)
My advice is if you like the seemingly BSAC only standard issue BCD for singles then keep it for singles, take it on holiday and so on but get a proper wing setup for twins.
Personally i dive a single tank wing as i find it massively more comfortable than any BCD ive tried and would never happily do an open water dive in a BCD again unless forced and i own a different size wing for my twins.
I have no problem with my Buddy BCD, in fact I really like it. But I'd imagine I'd be fine with a wing too. Guess if I end up getting a wing for twins I can always try it for singles and see which I prefer. To be honest I'm guessing that if I go down the route of getting twin 7's I'd likely use that in preference to a Single most of the time.
Just a quick one on the 7's. Twin 7's at 300 bar are great if you'll be able to get 300bar fills. Otherwise you won't ever get two decent dives out of them. If you've got the twin 12's at home I'd use them as you can never have too much gas (also the weight difference isn't that big).
Mike
We have our own compressor at our club and numerous members have 300 bar clyinders. We've been able to pump them to 300bar ok so I don't think that'll be a problem.
I did test putting the twin 12's on my buddy with twinning bands. There were a manifolded set with ss bands holding the cylinders together and I just used the twinning bands to attach the cylinders to the BCD. I was actually surprised how sturdy it seems but it didn't quite look right and I'd doubt it would be comfortable in the water. I also don't think I'd have had a chance in hell of being able to reach the valves. So if I was going to use the twin 12's I think I'd have no choice but to get a wing, backplate and harness. I'm guessing with twin 7's (probably independents) I'd be ok with using the buddy or using a wing and either work work - hence why I'm not sure which route to go down.
Paul Burgess
13-12-2010, 10:45
I guess what I was thinking was that if I had a standard backplate and harness and just changed the wing depending on what cylinders I was using that - then that would mean everything was in the same place on every dive rather than having different kit for a 20m dive than a 40m dive (if you get what I mean!?)
That's what I do and I like the simplicity of it.
The Rocketeer
13-12-2010, 14:20
All I'll say here is try it if possible before you buy it.
I've used my Commando (large) for 12 years now (About to be put to grass) on various setups singles, twins etc and I liked the versatility. Yes the are just about the most brick outhouse BCD you can get. Not pretty but a landrover of diving. Some BCD's can and do cater for twins.
However had I been made aware of just how comfy a wing is by comparison, earlier on I'd have never bothered with a conventional BCD in the first place!!!!
A BCD like a Commando that can take a 12l twinset or better is at best a "compromise solution" and most wont offer the lift capacity of a wing. I.e. you will be nearer the upper limit of what the bladder is capable of.
If diving twins a lot/most of the time then get a wing.
Most of the decent manufacturers do a backplate but go and try people's setups before jumping in.
Regards
Paul
I'd say a Buddy is more of a Toyota pickup truck of a BCD. I don't know anyone with a Land/Range/Discovery Rover who hasn't had a major problem with it.
I'd say a Buddy is more of a Toyota pickup truck of a BCD. I don't know anyone with a Land/Range/Discovery Rover who hasn't had a major problem with it.
I have a Land Rover and love it but I am on my second because the first one died. I think I just proved your point!?!
Anyway, Woz, did I read you dive twin 7's quite a lot? Are they 232 or 300 bar? I have the option to buy either at the moment and am undecided. I think I wan the heavier cylinders so I can drop some lead and the extra air can't hurt.
Richard Whitcombe
13-12-2010, 18:12
I guess what I was thinking was that if I had a standard backplate and harness and just changed the wing depending on what cylinders I was using that - then that would mean everything was in the same place on every dive rather than having different kit for a 20m dive than a 40m dive (if you get what I mean!?)
Thats exactly how myself (and lots of others) do it. Metal plate and harness, just swap single or twinset wing as needed.
Guess if I end up getting a wing for twins I can always try it for singles and see which I prefer
Not really. Wings for twins and singles are different sizes, different lift requirements. You can get ones that try to do both but they end up doing neither very well.
Not really. Wings for twins and singles are different sizes, different lift requirements. You can get ones that try to do both but they end up doing neither very well.
I was looking at the Apeks Wings. Am I right in thinking the WTX3 would be what I'd want for Singles and WTX4 for twin 7's as well as twin 10's or 12's then?
Richard Whitcombe
13-12-2010, 18:42
Single tank look around 30lb lift, for twin 12s around 45-50 max.
Single tank look around 30lb lift, for twin 12s around 45-50 max.
Thanks. What size wing would you suggest for twin 7's?
Single tank look around 30lb lift, for twin 12s around 45-50 max.
On that assumption my BCD (bought in 1983) with 25kg of lift is over the top for my preferred set-up: single 12 and 3Lt pony (side slung).
Edward
I have a Land Rover and love it but I am on my second because the first one died. I think I just proved your point!?!
Anyway, Woz, did I read you dive twin 7's quite a lot? Are they 232 or 300 bar? I have the option to buy either at the moment and am undecided. I think I wan the heavier cylinders so I can drop some lead and the extra air can't hurt.I uses 232 as 300s are very very heavy, you don't get a linear relationship with gases over 232 bar anyway and our compressor will only fill to 240. I also find them very neck heavy. Better off with 232 and a V or tail weight that you can position to get your trim bob-on.
I've had both and put it this way- I have 2 sets of 232 bar 7s and they're my most dived cylinders. Also have 2 12L twinsets which are great for hardboat or mix diving but crap for everything else. Don't need to change weight between the 2 sets which is handy.
I uses 232 as 300s are very very heavy, you don't get a linear relationship with gases over 232 bar anyway and our compressor will only fill to 240. I also find them very neck heavy. Better off with 232 and a V or tail weight that you can position to get your trim bob-on.
I've had both and put it this way- I have 2 sets of 232 bar 7s and they're my most dived cylinders. Also have 2 12L twinsets which are great for hardboat or mix diving but crap for everything else. Don't need to change weight between the 2 sets which is handy.
As it happens I just got a set of twin 7's at 232 bar so looks like that's what I'll be using for a while anyway. As you say I can always add weight to the cylinder in the form or v/tail weights.
As I've ended up with a manifold set the next thing for me to do is check whether I can use them on my buddy AND be able to reach the valves. If not (I'm guessing not!) I'll either need to get a slob knob or try a wing. If I have to spend money on a slob knob I'm thinking I may as well just jump to a wing and harness, especially as I want to be able to use twin 10's later for deeper dives than the 7's will allow.
Too many options and choices! ;-)
Twin 10s are a bit grim. The Faber ones are shorter than the 7s and just don't sit right unless you're a dwarf. Beaver and Euro do longer 10s and Silent Planet were doing twin 8.5s which look lovely and had my drool on them almost immediately.
I ran twin 12's on a Commando for a bit and it's doable if a bit creaky on the shoulder clips. Could reach the valves reasonably easily but that's more from practice and a correctly fitting suit than the way the cylinders sit. Lots of people blame where the valves are but get them in the water, show them a couple of tricks and most can reach them no problem. For the Great Unwashed here are some tricks:
1. As soon as you jump in the water, pull a Superman pose as you bob back up to the surface while your suit empties through the dump valve. As you do this, your suit and undersuit get pulled back up so that it's not all bunched around your waist. If you leave it till later it won't work as well as the water pressure "clamps" your suit down onto your body.
2. Get your trim right. Instinct is to go head up for a valve drill but then you're fighting gravity. Much easier to do it flat/head down.
3. Don't point your elbows out. Keep them pointing forwards so your forearms touch your ears.
4. Look up, not down. You get better reach with your head bent back than forwards.
5. If you can't reach your isolator, put your wrist on the back of your head and use your head to help push your arm back.
1. As soon as you jump in the water, pull a Superman pose as you bob back up to the surface while your suit empties through the dump valve. As you do this, your suit and undersuit get pulled back up so that it's not all bunched around your waist. If you leave it till later it won't work as well as the water pressure "clamps" your suit down onto your body.
2. Get your trim right. Instinct is to go head up for a valve drill but then you're fighting gravity. Much easier to do it flat/head down.
3. Don't point your elbows out. Keep them pointing forwards so your forearms touch your ears.
4. Look up, not down. You get better reach with your head bent back than forwards.
5. If you can't reach your isolator, put your wrist on the back of your head and use your head to help push your arm back.
Umm, thanks, maybe I'll give it a try on the weekend at the quarry. The 12's on my buddy just don't look or feel right but maybe it'll be better in the water.
As for the's 10's I'm currently using dumpy 12's and they are the perfect length for me so maybe I'm a dwarf! 10's are the same height so think they'd fit me ok. But again, I haven't tried that yet so we'll see I guess.
Umm, thanks, maybe I'll give it a try on the weekend at the quarry. The 12's on my buddy just don't look or feel right but maybe it'll be better in the water.
As for the's 10's I'm currently using dumpy 12's and they are the perfect length for me so maybe I'm a dwarf! 10's are the same height so think they'd fit me ok. But again, I haven't tried that yet so we'll see I guess.The one great thing about twin dumpy 12s is they make your ar$e look small. I've dived them on holiday and was surprised about how ok they were in the water.
The one great thing about twin dumpy 12s is they make your ar$e look small. I've dived them on holiday and was surprised about how ok they were in the water.
I do have a couple of dumpy 12's so could give them a try. Just seems wrong ;-)
Richard Whitcombe
14-12-2010, 12:54
On that assumption my BCD (bought in 1983) with 25kg of lift is over the top for my preferred set-up: single 12 and 3Lt pony (side slung).
Edward
Most BCDs are substantially overrated (ie have way way more than is needed or sensible) regarding lift and always have been.
Thanks. What size wing would you suggest for twin 7's?
No idea on 7s- i've never dived them as i cant think of a single situation where they'd be useful. Lift won't be an issue but a single tank wing MAY be to narrow for them so a 40-50lb might be better purely due to the shape of it.
7s are lovely. Only give the same gas as a 12 and pony but are so much nicer to dive with the weight concentrated next to your back.
Richard Whitcombe
14-12-2010, 13:20
7s are lovely. Only give the same gas as a 12 and pony but are so much nicer to dive with the weight concentrated next to your back.
I wouldn't get 2 decent dives out of twin 7s so would need to own and take 2 twinsets on the boat every time and swap around in between dives so for that reason don't use them. 10s as you said are generally terrible.
I go for 12s meaning i can do deeper stuff with them or 3 shallow or training dives. Plus no swapping tanks on a bouncy RIB in the rain etc.
I wouldn't get 2 decent dives out of twin 7s so would need to own and take 2 twinsets on the boat every time and swap around in between dives so for that reason don't use them. 10s as you said are generally terrible.
I go for 12s meaning i can do deeper stuff with them or 3 shallow or training dives. Plus no swapping tanks on a bouncy RIB in the rain etc.See what you mean. We don't have room on the RIB for 2 sets of cyls so have to RTB to swap anyway. Although a couple of the guys side sling an ally 7 for the first dive, huff it down, then swap to the twinset on the back for the remainder of the 1st and the shallower 2nd dive. That seems to work quite well and is a bit more gas than in 10s but much easier to handle on a RIB.
Some of us can get 2 dives out of 7s :)
See what you mean. We don't have room on the RIB for 2 sets of cyls so have to RTB to swap anyway. Although a couple of the guys side sling an ally 7 for the first dive, huff it down, then swap to the twinset on the back for the remainder of the 1st and the shallower 2nd dive. That seems to work quite well and is a bit more gas than in 10s but much easier to handle on a RIB.
Some of us can get 2 dives out of 7s :)
Most of our club dives are 20m or less and off our club rib so I was thinking the 7's might be nicer than swapping 12's between dives. I'll find out soon enough if they're good for me or not. I just can't see me wanting to use the twin 12's on our rib.
We almost always RTB between dives so I can either swap or decant maybe if more air is needed for second dive but often the second dive of the day is quite shallow or, if we do anything deepish on the 1st dive I often only do 1 dive that day anyway.
Scimitar Diving
14-12-2010, 15:50
If its any good for you i know that Underwater explorers have got a swimmimg pool session this coming Saturday here in Portland. Im sure that they would be happy for you to try out a single wing for yourself and maybe help see what works for you.
If its any good for you i know that Underwater explorers have got a swimmimg pool session this coming Saturday here in Portland. Im sure that they would be happy for you to try out a single wing for yourself and maybe help see what works for you.
Thanks for the offer but out club has access to a pool once a week and a number of members have wings so I'll just pinch one of theirs some time ;-)
Richard Whitcombe
14-12-2010, 23:38
Some of us can get 2 dives out of 7s :)
Teaching i'd have no problem but if im fun diving i generally want longer dives (an hour or hypothermia). Very few charter boats here have compressors onboard and our RIB is generally out all day as its 45 mins each way to get to lots of the sites. That means all divers have the tanks for 2 dives onboat etc.
(god knows what my UK sac rate is, its been 10slm the last few months abroad but i suspect 13 or 14 here as its freezing and wearing a load more lead)
julian.carroll
15-12-2010, 23:34
Here's what I do, and I find it works well:
Shallow diving (<35m) independent twin 7s
Deep diving (>35m) independent twin 12s
This means I always dive a twinset on a wing and the configurations for the two are almost identical (weight belt is the only thing I change). It also means I'm switching regs on every dive which I think is good practice (I don't like the idea of doing 90% of my diving on a single tank and then the 10% of really important stuff with a setup I'm rusty on). This setup is relatively cheap because I'm not buying kit for two rigs (other than the cylinders themseleves).
From what I've been told, I wouldn't bother with 300bar cylinders -- they're heavy, difficult to fill fully, require a 300bar reg, and it's often hard to find a 300bar compressor.
Ask around and see what other people say, remembering always to take what they say (including this post) with a pinch of salt.
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