View Full Version : Nitrox
James Davies
15-01-2004, 12:40
Hi all,
i am looking to do a Nitrox course. Does anyone know if there are any courses running in the Surrey area over the next few months?
thanks
James
Hi all,
i am looking to do a Nitrox course. Does anyone know if there are any courses running in the Surrey area over the next few months?
You don't say which version so here is the lists of all scheduled events
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/events/poe2004nd.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/events/poe2004nd.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/events/poe2004cnc.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/events/poe2004cnc.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/events/poe2004anc.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/events/poe2004anc.htm</a>
If none of those are suitable contact your regional coach as they often hear of single places available on branch run courses
HTH
Pete
South East SDCO
15-01-2004, 14:19
Hi all,
i am looking to do a Nitrox course. Does anyone know if there are any courses running in the Surrey area over the next few months?
thanks
James
James,
BSAC south East Region are running a Nitrox Course on 20th March and a Combined Nitrox Course on the 8th May. Details and booking can be found at the Region's web site.
Eddie
James Davies
16-01-2004, 11:53
:=Hi all,
:=
:=i am looking to do a Nitrox course. Does anyone know if there are any courses running in the Surrey area over the next few months?
:=
:=thanks
:=
:=James
James,
BSAC south East Region are running a Nitrox Course on 20th March and a Combined Nitrox Course on the 8th May. Details and booking can be found at the Region's web site.
Eddie
thanks but i cant make those dates. If i do a course with TDI will BSAC recognise the qualification?
thanks but i cant make those dates. If i do a course with TDI will BSAC recognise the qualification?
yep
see link
thanks but i cant make those dates. If i do a course with TDI will BSAC recognise the qualification?
They will and it is a better qualification to boot
Dave
James Davies
16-01-2004, 17:13
:=thanks but i cant make those dates. If i do a course with TDI will BSAC recognise the qualification?
They will and it is a better qualification to boot
Dave
thanks, but why do you say it's a better qualification?
James Davies
16-01-2004, 17:13
david lisk
16-01-2004, 17:52
:=They will and it is a better qualification to boot
:=
:=Dave
thanks, but why do you say it's a better qualification?
The TDI course lets you breath up to 40% nitrox mixtures, stated on your TDI cert card. (BSAC 36% max, as far as I know for non-advanced course.)
TDI you can dive with the correct mixture up to 40m, again stated on your TDI cert card.(BSAC Course 35m as sports diver).
The course covers B?hlmann tables and the calculation of Equavilant Air Depth (EAD) therefore you can dive any mixture between 22% and 40% (BSAC, only table mixtures of 27%, 32%, 36% if I recall correctly. The BSAC nitrox tables are not suitable for EAD calculations)
The TDI course includes a lot of manual calculation explaining nitrox mixtures from first principles.
You can do the TDI Nitrox with as little as 10 logged dives, and BSAC Club or Ocean diver. (Sports diver required for BSAC)
On successful completion you get a TDI Diver Nitrox Certification card. If you leave BSAC you can use this as you diver qualification card as it does not expire.
TDI recognised world wide, no hassle over blue logbooks and having to buy a C-Card from headquarters (as foreign centres often like a plastic card.)
The TDI course I did was excellent. It is good to do qualification outside you own agency sometimes.
Regards,
David, OWI
PS. all the BSAC courses I have done so far have also been excellent.
> why do you say it's a better qualification?
TDI teaches EAD, BSAC doesn't.
Vic.
iainmsmith
16-01-2004, 22:27
The TDI course lets you breath up to 40% nitrox mixtures, stated on your TDI cert card. (BSAC 36% max, as far as I know for non-advanced course.)
BSAC Nitrox Diver: 32% or 36% only. Nothing in between.
Of course, even Advanced Nitrox Diver only lets you dive as if you were on 21%, 27%, 32% or 36%, whatever you're actually breathing and regardless of what deco gas you're carrying.
Iain
andy botten
16-01-2004, 23:53
The TDI course lets you breath up to 40% nitrox mixtures, stated on your TDI cert card. (BSAC 36% max, as far as I know for non-advanced course.)
Most people opt for the Combined course that covers Basic and Advanced with a maximum mix of 50%, but you are right for the Basic.
TDI you can dive with the correct mixture up to 40m, again stated on your TDI cert card.(BSAC Course 35m as sports diver).
Only outside the reach of your branch DO ;-)
The course covers B?hlmann tables and the calculation of Equavilant Air Depth (EAD) therefore you can dive any mixture between 22% and 40% (BSAC, only table mixtures of 27%, 32%, 36% if I recall correctly. The BSAC nitrox tables are not suitable for EAD calculations)
The tables match the BSAC 88 tables and cover the most common out of the cylinder bank mixes so fewer calculations, but you are not limited to those with the Advanced ticket. The book has tables for Maximum Operating Depth for all mixes, up to 50%. Your right though, it does not have the no stop times for anything other than those three mixes. As most Club/Ocean divers have a limited exposure to decompression theory it is done with tables to keep it simple. But you still have a theory paper to sit. And with the Advanced you can switch your computer to a fixed mix.
The TDI course includes a lot of manual calculation explaining nitrox mixtures from first principles.
You can do the TDI Nitrox with as little as 10 logged dives, and BSAC Club or Ocean diver. (Sports diver required for BSAC)
For the Basic Nitrox - Ocean + 20 dives
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/syllabus/nitrxsyl.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/syllabus/nitrxsyl.htm</a>
For Combined/Advanced Sports + 20 dives
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/syllabus/cntrxsyl.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/syllabus/cntrxsyl.htm</a>
On successful completion you get a TDI Diver Nitrox Certification card. If you leave BSAC you can use this as you diver qualification card as it does not expire.
TDI recognised world wide, no hassle over blue logbooks and having to buy a C-Card from headquarters (as foreign centres often like a plastic card.)
The BSAC Nitrox qualification comes with a nice plastic card with your photo on as part of passing the course. So no problems anywhere in the world.
The TDI course I did was excellent. It is good to do qualification outside you own agency sometimes.
I have no arguement there.
Safe (air) diving to you all
dave woodward
17-01-2004, 01:10
People do hark on about TDI/IANTD being better courses, but really there is no reason why the BSAC course if run by a decent instructor, (who really shouldn't be a numpty if he has qualified OK to teach it) shouldn't be as good. It really does have good content.
I see people go on about how BSAC only teach you to dive 21, 27, 32 and 36% Nitrox, but all the courses I have been involved with teach how to use up to 40%, but with BSAC kindly providing easy to use tables for 27, 32, 36%, and teach you how to apply these to whatever mix you have while correctly taking into account your MOD.
A BSAC nitrox instructor is not forbidden to express the idea of EAD, and I imagine that most who have a bit of savvy will impart this extra bit in addition to what BSAC teaches. I believe it is not applicable to the BSAC tables, but is it the best attitude to want to squeeze the last few seconds of dive time you could get with applying EAD to the buhlmann (?) or whatever tables provided?
The whole idea of using tables is to have a good "foolproof" look up table to stop you messing around and having the chance of messing up your equations.
Nitrox is really not that difficult, to the point that everyone really (if it were an ideal world) should be taught nitrox alongside a basic diving course and could afford it.
BSAC made a good job (in my opinion) of making nitrox much more accessible to divers in general than TDI and IANTD. (Yes I sreckon PADI probably does as well)
Turned into a rant, sorry about that, but there really isn't anything wrong with the BSAC course. Yes, definately pick a good instructor, and wherever you are in the country someone will be able to recommend a good instructor.
Sorry if it went on a bit!
Dave
(yeah, yeah, hang me)
:=
:=:=thanks but i cant make those dates. If i do a course with TDI will BSAC recognise the qualification?
:=
:=They will and it is a better qualification to boot
:=
:=Dave
thanks, but why do you say it's a better qualification?
> why do you say it's a better qualification?
TDI teaches EAD, BSAC doesn't.
Nice and succinct. I woudl also add
As mentioned, the BSAC Nitrox course certifies only to use the nitrox mixes 32 or 36% whilst TDI is anything up to 40%.
For many people, the TDI Basic Nitrox course ( which is a 3 hour theory course; no dives need to take place ( excepting if you undertake the course in Australia where there is a 2 dive requirement). The Basic nitrox course covers use of Nitrox for all mixes up to 40% to a max depth (iirc) of 40m, which does cover what many people just need.
To get anyhting useful out of the BSAC course, you need to to the Advanced Course. Comparing the BSAC Advanced and TDI Advanced , TDI wins hands down
There is no need for any minumum number of dives in order to start the TDI course, in fact it can be taught in conjunction with an Open Water Diver course.
If doing the course, look at what the certification gives you
TDI BASIC vs BSAC BASIC All mixes 22-40% vs 32 and 36% only
TDI Advanced vs BSAC Advanced All mixes up to 100% vs max 50%
Dave
> A BSAC nitrox instructor is not forbidden to express the idea
> of EAD, and I imagine that most who have a bit of savvy will
> impart this extra bit in addition to what BSAC teaches.
But EAD is not part of the course - and we're comparing courses here.
No-one is claiming that BSAC divers are incapable of teaching a good course - we're claiming that the BSAC course is inferior to the TDI course. I stand by that claim.
Vic.
> A BSAC nitrox instructor is not forbidden to express the idea
> of EAD, and I imagine that most who have a bit of savvy will
> impart this extra bit in addition to what BSAC teaches.
But EAD is not part of the course - and we're comparing courses here.
No-one is claiming that BSAC divers are incapable of teaching a good course - we're claiming that the BSAC course is inferior to the TDI course. I stand by that claim.
And I'll stand pretty near by. EAD is not part of the course, nor can it be used for planning dives using the BSAC-88 tables. TDI instructors may well mention things that are outside of the syllabus too. It is only fair to consider what is covered by the course.
Dave
David Walker
17-01-2004, 13:42
:=:=They will and it is a better qualification to boot
:=thanks, but why do you say it's a better qualification?
You can do the TDI Nitrox with as little as 10 logged dives, and BSAC Club or Ocean diver. (Sports diver required for BSAC)
I've never thought about doing courses from other agencies, but i've jus had a look around, trying to see what they do, where they do it, how much they are, etc. I found their websites, but it only has a very basic summary of each course (one paragraph), and I can't find any more information. For eg the TDI Advanced Nitrox, where would I look in the UK (North East or West Midlands) to do one? Does more information exist anywhere about the courses and cost, etc somewhere that i'm missing?
I just think it might be worth a look before I go off and do the BSAC one.
Thanks
David
:=:=:=They will and it is a better qualification to boot
:=:=thanks, but why do you say it's a better qualification?
:=You can do the TDI Nitrox with as little as 10 logged dives, and BSAC Club or Ocean diver. (Sports diver required for BSAC)
I've never thought about doing courses from other agencies, but i've jus had a look around, trying to see what they do, where they do it, how much they are, etc. I found their websites, but it only has a very basic summary of each course (one paragraph), and I can't find any more information. For eg the TDI Advanced Nitrox, where would I look in the UK (North East or West Midlands) to do one? Does more information exist anywhere about the courses and cost, etc somewhere that i'm missing?
Oooh... You could try the TDI website to start with www.tdisdi.com . Select TDI Facilities and click on UK and you will get a list of some places. I would suggest calling Dave Crockford ( who is listed on the site ) and he will be able to point you to any independant instructors in your area. I wouldnt expect to pay more than around ?80 for the basic course. You should have no trouble finding someone in your area to run it for you
Dave
iainmsmith
17-01-2004, 14:37
People do hark on about TDI/IANTD being better courses, but really there is no reason why the BSAC course if run by a decent instructor, (who really shouldn't be a numpty if he has qualified OK to teach it) shouldn't be as good. It really does have good content.
But not as good as some of the comparable offerings. The only advantage that I see is that one does not have to be "professional" (in the commercial sense) to teach it.
A BSAC nitrox instructor is not forbidden to express the idea of EAD...I believe it is not applicable to the BSAC tables
Do you see a problem with teaching the concept of EAD in the context of tables to which EAD doe not apply?
> but is it the best attitude to want to squeeze the last few
> seconds of dive time you could get with applying EAD to the
> buhlmann (?) or whatever tables provided?
On the BSAC Tables, that's certainly a fair point. One of my buddies did a comparison slide. The only table that gets you out of the water faster than a standard BSAC nitrox table is a Buehlmann 100/100 with accelerated deco on 50%. And the BSAC table still gets you back to 6m faster!
The whole idea of using tables is to have a good "foolproof" look up table to stop you messing around and having the chance of messing up your equations.
An EAD look-up table (depth, mix, EAD) is hardly a difficult thibg to create. If Hennessey was happy for EAD to be applied to the tables it would be a nice addition.
Iain
Andy Wade
17-01-2004, 15:14
:=People do hark on about TDI/IANTD being better courses, but really there is no reason why the BSAC course if run by a decent instructor, (who really shouldn't be a numpty if he has qualified OK to teach it) shouldn't be as good. It really does have good content.
But not as good as some of the comparable offerings. The only advantage that I see is that one does not have to be "professional" (in the commercial sense) to teach it.
:=A BSAC nitrox instructor is not forbidden to express the idea of EAD...I believe it is not applicable to the BSAC tables
Do you see a problem with teaching the concept of EAD in the context of tables to which EAD doe not apply?
> but is it the best attitude to want to squeeze the last few
> seconds of dive time you could get with applying EAD to the
> buhlmann (?) or whatever tables provided?
On the BSAC Tables, that's certainly a fair point. One of my buddies did a comparison slide. The only table that gets you out of the water faster than a standard BSAC nitrox table is a Buehlmann 100/100 with accelerated deco on 50%. And the BSAC table still gets you back to 6m faster!
:=The whole idea of using tables is to have a good "foolproof" look up table to stop you messing around and having the chance of messing up your equations.
An EAD look-up table (depth, mix, EAD) is hardly a difficult thibg to create. If Hennessey was happy for EAD to be applied to the tables it would be a nice addition.
Indeed, there's one here:
(see link)
(Click 'cancel' when prompted for a password and user name)
> (see link)
...Pointing to an XLS file...
If you've got access to the server, Andy, here's a little toy I've found quite handy.
<a href="http://chicago.sourceforge.net/xlhtml/" >http://chicago.sourceforge.net/xlhtml/</a>
HTH
Vic.
David Walker
17-01-2004, 22:13
Oooh... You could try the TDI website to start with www.tdisdi.com . Select TDI Facilities and click on UK and you will get a list of some places. I would suggest calling Dave Crockford ( who is listed on the site ) and he will be able to point you to any independant instructors in your area. I wouldnt expect to pay more than around ?80 for the basic course. You should have no trouble finding someone in your area to run it for you
Teeheehee! Ermmm.... yeah! :o\ I did try that, but it was going slow and couldn't be bothered to wait for the little map to load and ended up in the Europe bit instead of UK.
I'll have a nosey then!
Ta
David
Andy Wade
18-01-2004, 01:47
> (see link)
...Pointing to an XLS file...
If you've got access to the server, Andy, here's a little toy I've found quite handy.
Thanks Vic,
I've added a page with the EAD Table on it.
The table was created by Niall Vine.
(link below)
James Davies
18-01-2004, 13:26
Hi all,
i am looking to do a Nitrox course. Does anyone know if there are any courses running in the Surrey area over the next few months?
thanks
James
thanks for all the advice guys. I have booked up my basic nitrox course and i'm looking forward to it.
>> (see link)
>
> ...Pointing to an XLS file...
Now visible in completely not-tarted-up form at <a href="http://www.yellowside.org.uk/ead/EAD.xls" >http://www.yellowside.org.uk/ead/EAD.xls</a> ;-)
Vic.
:=Hi all,
:=
:=i am looking to do a Nitrox course. Does anyone know if there are any courses running in the Surrey area over the next few months?
:=
:=thanks
:=
:=James
thanks for all the advice guys. I have booked up my basic nitrox course and i'm looking forward to it.
Which one did you book?
Dave
James Davies
19-01-2004, 16:32
:=:=Hi all,
:=:=
:=:=i am looking to do a Nitrox course. Does anyone know if there are any courses running in the Surrey area over the next few months?
:=:=
:=:=thanks
:=:=
:=:=James
:=
:=thanks for all the advice guys. I have booked up my basic nitrox course and i'm looking forward to it.
Which one did you book?
Dave
TDI basic nitrox. not because i thought it was a better course but mainly because it was more convenient.
People do hark on about TDI/IANTD being better courses, but really there is no reason why the BSAC course if run by a decent instructor, (who really shouldn't be a numpty if he has qualified OK to teach it) shouldn't be as good. It really does have good content.
I qualified as IANTD Advanced Nitrox about a year prior to BSAC approving Nitrox use in branch diving. I have since gone onto Technical Nitrox and Advanced Trimix. I have sat in on BSAC Basic, Advanced and Combined courses run by various instructors.
BSAC teach 3 courses and IMVHO the content gets increasingly worse as divers progress through them.
I see people go on about how BSAC only teach you to dive 21, 27, 32 and 36% Nitrox, but all the courses I have been involved with teach how to use up to 40%,
Basic Nitrox Diver covers only 32 and 36%. Given that this is an entry course for no stop diving I don't see that as a huge problem. In practical terms the Basic course is a good introduction to EAN, good value and very useful.
but with BSAC kindly providing easy to use tables for 27, 32, 36%, and teach you how to apply these to whatever mix you have while correctly taking into account your MOD.
This would be the Advanced course. This course is aimed at divers wishing to do decompression stops using multiple gases.
A BSAC nitrox instructor is not forbidden to express the idea of EAD,
I would think that would be adding to the sylabus.
and I imagine that most who have a bit of savvy will impart this extra bit in addition to what BSAC teaches.
I have never heard EAD taught on a BSAC Nitrox course. At least one of the courses I have sat in on was run by a regional coach.
I believe it is not applicable to the BSAC tables, but is it the best attitude to want to squeeze the last few seconds of dive time you could get with applying EAD to the buhlmann (?) or whatever tables provided?
You might want to think about the sense of teaching with a table which allows a 15m/min ascent rate on a course which is aimed at extended bottom times and decompression diving.
Iain has made the point that stop times on BSAC Nx 88s are significantly more agressive than Beuhlmann's using EADs. As an example on Beuhlmann's 34% 30m 27mins requires a 1min stop at 6m using 80%. You can do the same profile on 88s using 21% throughout!
It gets worse...Lets assume that our BSAC Adv Nx goes onto BSAC ERD. They will be trained to use Beuhlmann based planning software and the accelerated stops will be longer than those on their NX 88s! I find that rather ridiculous.
The whole idea of using tables is to have a good "foolproof" look up table to stop you messing around and having the chance of messing up your equations.
So put an EAD table in the back of the manual. The other agencies have managed this.
Knowing the EAD of your mix is always useful and somtimes essential. The BSAC courses place some emphasis on using a Nitrox computer. Nothing wrong with that, I use one myself. BSAC taught me that it is sensible to write up a slate in case of computer failure on my Novice Course, so I pull out my IANTD/Beuhlmann Air tables, find my EAD and write down the main and contigency plans knowing they will be pretty similar to my Beuhlmann based computer, very simple, very safe.
The problem is where do BSAC Adv Nx divers look for numbers to write on their slates. They should not use the Nx 88s because they are incompatible with their dive computer which will almost certainly be using a Beuhlmann or derivative algorithm.
Personally I think the 88s should be dumped after Basic Nitrox and Beuhlmann's adopted at Advanced. As it is students are forced to buy a set of somwhat provocative tables (for staged decompression) that many of them never use once the course is ended. The ones that do try to use the tables often look very perturbed once they realise the massive difference in times compared to their computers.
Nitrox is really not that difficult, to the point that everyone really (if it were an ideal world) should be taught nitrox alongside a basic diving course and could afford it.
Completely agree. Nitrox diver is under sold. It would be an ideal branch lead qualification taught over a couple evenings. We could introduce people to EAN and let them decide if they want to take it further. But the Coaches always tell people to do combined.
BSAC made a good job (in my opinion) of making nitrox much more accessible to divers in general than TDI and IANTD. (Yes I sreckon PADI probably does as well)
What PADI did for Basic Nitrox TDI are doing for Advanced Nitrox. I suspect thet TDI qualify more Advanced Nitrox divers than BSAC do. IANTD have their own special way which appears to be aimed at those looking for the most detailed technical training.
Turned into a rant, sorry about that, but there really isn't anything wrong with the BSAC course.
You may also think my post is a bit of a rant.
The faults I have descibed have been raised after chatting to BSAC qualified Adv Nx divers who have came to me for advice over the last few years. I would rather they did not as BSAC disaprove of my own techniques. But I have been diving Nitrox longer than manyt so I suppose it is inevitable. I continue to dive and teach as a BSAC member because I believe club diving leads to safer divers. Unfortunately I think BSAC could be teaching people to be safer than they are when it comes to Nitrox decompression diving.
Yes, definately pick a good instructor, and wherever you are in the country someone will be able to recommend a good instructor.
The best thing about the BSAC course is the price and that could be better if candidates were not forced to buy tables. I don't think that cost is the main priority, safety should be. The Advanced course is lacking, a good instructor can not change that.
Sorry if you don't like my opinion.
James Davies
26-01-2004, 15:47
Hi all,
i am looking to do a Nitrox course. Does anyone know if there are any courses running in the Surrey area over the next few months?
thanks
James
Well i did my TDI basic nitrox on saturday. excellent course which covered everything i needed to know. despite all the buzzwords and jargon that is thrown about the course explained exactly what nitrox is all about and how to use it propoerly. It's really not that hard and seems ideal for the sort of diving i do, which is mainly 15-30m around the south coast.
i did the course with mark at dive-tech in guildford and would definitely recommend him. very helpful in arranging the course and very knowledgeable. he is also a very good instructor and explained everything very well.
thanks for all the help in putting me on the right track.
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