1.5 litre pony

[Nigel Kelleher]

I am looking for a 1.5 litre bottle as a source of redundancy for NDL diving.

Anyone know of a supplier in the UK?

Cheers,

Nigel

[Vic]

> I am looking for a 1.5 litre bottle as a source of redundancy
> for NDL diving.
>
> Anyone know of a supplier in the UK?

Luxfer make an ali 1.5, so your LDS should be able to get hold of it.

Are you *sure* you want one? It's not very big. I suspect you'd do better to spend your money elsewhere...

Vic.

[Nigel Kelleher]

The bottle would be a bail-out; with minimum 300lts. available air, that is enough for an ascent from 50m with a 3 min safety stop at 3-5m.

Why carry more than you need for a bail-out? I find a 3 ltr. bottle to be too big, and unbalancing while under. The smaller bottle will be fine for a single-person bail-out, which is all I need it for ...

BTW I have yet to need one :-)

Nigel

[Keith L]

The bottle would be a bail-out; with minimum 300lts. available air, that is enough for an ascent from 50m with a 3 min safety stop at 3-5m.

!! I hope that I'm not the dive marshal when you try to prove that theory :-( Yes, you can make it, on a standard SAC, and clocking it at the BSAC 15m/min ascent rate.

But... in a stress situation your SAC is likely to double at least, say 50l/min? 20 secs on the bottom sorting yourself out before the ascent? 15m/min fast ascent? - by my calcs you're out of gas before you even reach your 5m safety stop.

Try stage mounting a 3l, I find that much less unbalancing than back mounting it and at least it's a usable amount of gas.

Take care.

Keith L

[Nigel Kelleher]

15m/min to 20m; 10m/min to surface, plus stop, should make about 295lts. at 18 lts/min., which is more than average SAC.

Plenty if needed, and the stop is not mandatory - 70 lts. or so offset against "stress".

Thanks for your thoughts,

Still like to get it, but mighty scarce.

Nigel

[iainmsmith]

:=The bottle would be a bail-out; with minimum 300lts. available air, that is enough for an ascent from 50m with a 3 min safety stop at 3-5m.

!! I hope that I'm not the dive marshal when you try to prove that theory :-( Yes, you can make it, on a standard SAC, and clocking it at the BSAC 15m/min ascent rate.

But... in a stress situation your SAC is likely to double at least, say 50l/min? 20 secs on the bottom sorting yourself out before the ascent? 15m/min fast ascent? - by my calcs you're out of gas before you even reach your 5m safety stop.

And that's with a conservative estimate of 50L/min. As you know, Keith, I've been involved with a situation where a diver's SAC hit 96L/min.

Try stage mounting a 3l, I find that much less unbalancing than back mounting it and at least it's a usable amount of gas.

With all due respect to whoever, anyone who thinks that a 3L bottle is adequate bailout from 50m (or who regards any 50m dive as only needing a 3-5min safety stop) should do an awful lot more reading and get an awful lot more experience before doing such dives.

Iain

[Keith L]

15m/min to 20m; 10m/min to surface, plus stop, should make about 295lts. at 18 lts/min., which is more than average SAC.
Plenty if needed, and the stop is not mandatory - 70 lts. or so offset against "stress".
Thanks for your thoughts,
Still like to get it, but mighty scarce.

Please have a think about it Nigel, ask around, talk to divers who do those sorts of dives. 1.5l is nowhere near enough bail-out. That's why you're having trouble finding one - they're virtually useless on deep dives and only really used by instructors on short shallow training dives to comply with HSE ACoP. Look at Iain's post - a real life situation with a SAC nearing 100l/min, that's what actually happens and why we're trying to talk you out of it :-)

Regards

Keith L

[Andy Wade]

15m/min to 20m; 10m/min to surface, plus stop, should make about 295lts. at 18 lts/min., which is more than average SAC.

Plenty if needed, and the stop is not mandatory - 70 lts. or so offset against "stress".

Thanks for your thoughts,

Still like to get it, but mighty scarce.


There's a reason why they're scarce. They aren't much use.
As has been mentioned by others in this thread, there simply isn't enough gas in a cylinder this size for an ascent from 50 metres, I know that on paper there is, just. But it does not happen that way in a real emergency situation. Iain Smith's example of a 96lts/min SAC in an emergency is not uncommon. Vic's suggestion of side mounting a 3l pony is the norm for most people.
The problem with incidents is that they are like buses, you wait all your diving life for one to happen, then three come all at once. I'll bet that if you ever really needed that spare gas from 50 metres, that something else would go wrong at the same time, like a free flow from your pony regulator, then you definitely wouldn't have enough gas to reach the surface unaided, so you get your buddy to help, and that's the time when the vis goes and you get separated for a few seconds, hey presto, panic, and you can guess the rest.
Being prepared for this sort of disaster is essential when diving so deep, which is why most people carry a minimum of a 3l pony for bailout, that's why that size cylinder is as common as muck, in fact most people would be twinning up for a dive to 50 metres, and carrying a 3l stage cylinder for decompression too.



.

[Andy Nye]

I dive with a 1.5 , which when i first got it , i only used for suit & wing inflation.

I take it everywhere,and tho i'm not into doing deco stops, i find that where i use it the most ( Dover Straits ) that having a average max depth of 30 mts it works well for my type of diving as a pony / bail out.

Normally filled with 50 - 80 % nitrox.
I'm also one of them rare lucky ones that has a very low SAC, of avaerage 9.7 l/m this year, i log every dive i do on pc , and with my own spreadsheet that i compliled so , that my SAC is worked out and draws a graph..... It showeb up well a few times this year due to leaks and lifting bags .


IMHO , if you feel that you can use a 1.5 on a dive as a bail out , then go for it .

my 2p's worth

Andy

[Andy Wade]

I dive with a 1.5 , which when i first got it , i only used for suit & wing inflation.

I take it everywhere,and tho i'm not into doing deco stops, i find that where i use it the most ( Dover Straits ) that having a average max depth of 30 mts it works well for my type of diving as a pony / bail out.

Normally filled with 50 - 80 % nitrox.
I'm also one of them rare lucky ones that has a very low SAC, of avaerage 9.7 l/m this year, i log every dive i do on pc , and with my own spreadsheet that i compliled so , that my SAC is worked out and draws a graph..... It showeb up well a few times this year due to leaks and lifting bags .


IMHO , if you feel that you can use a 1.5 on a dive as a bail out , then go for it .

my 2p's worth

But would you use a 1.5 litre cylinder for bailout on dives to 50 metres?

[michael smith]

Hello Nigel, at the moment your reference to doing 50m dives with a bail out of 1.5l cylinder, open circuit I assume, is causing some concerns.

Before I can provide you with precise advice I need to understand you more. Could you provide information on your current diving interests, i.e. depths and durations, and any changes to your diving you're planning in the next couple of years. It would also be helpful if you could provide details of your diver grades and experience. As you may not wish to send this information out on a public forum, you may contact me via my e-mail.

Regards Mike

[Barry Goss]

I dive with a 1.5 , which when i first got it , i only used for suit & wing inflation.

I take it everywhere,and tho i'm not into doing deco stops, i find that where i use it the most ( Dover Straits ) that having a average max depth of 30 mts it works well for my type of diving as a pony / bail out.

Normally filled with 50 - 80 % nitrox.

??? Sorry Andy, are you saying that you routinely carry a 1.5L cylinder to 30m filled with 50-80% (MOD 21m - 10m) as bailout???

If so... I really don't know where to start.
Barry

[Keith L]

IMHO , if you feel that you can use a 1.5 on a dive as a bail out , then go for it .

For a no-stop down to 30m, for somebody who's done 1,000+ dives, for somebody with a SAC below 10l/min... then I agree with you, it is adequate.

But for us mere mortals with a more normal SAC and anybody even contemplating 50m where no-stop diving is highly unlikely then I maintain that it aint enough! :-)

Keith L

[Nigel Kelleher]

I see my original question has not been addressed, and my post has only received judgemental comments, analyses of stereotypical dive practises without having all the facts, and (probably) well-meant advice.

I didn't ask for that.

I am looking for a supplier for the bottle in question, not a comment by persons who don't know me, how and where I dive, nor my qualifications to do same.

Assumptions usually lead to wrong conclusions.

I would appreciate if my original post's question were answered, and unqualified opinions were witheld thank you.

Cheers,

Nigel

[andycarroll]

I am looking for a 1.5 litre bottle as a source of redundancy for NDL diving.

Anyone know of a supplier in the UK?

Cheers,

Nigel

Hi

SDS can order you the 1.5 litre luxfer argon cylinder. Comes o2 clean from the factory and has a DIN insert valve. Underwater explorers can do the AP Valves 1 litre bottle as well if you think the 1.5 is too big ;o)

Andy

[Andy Nye]

a average max depth of 30 mts it works well for my type of diving as a pony / bail out.


But would you use a 1.5 litre cylinder for bailout on dives to 50 metres?

Don't know that Andy, coz i don't get 50 mts off Dover on the wrecks i do .

I'm happy with it on most dives in the 30 mts region and UP

Andy

[Andy Wade]

I see my original question has not been addressed, and my post has only received judgemental comments, analyses of stereotypical dive practises without having all the facts, and (probably) well-meant advice.

I didn't ask for that.

I am looking for a supplier for the bottle in question, not a comment by persons who don't know me, how and where I dive, nor my qualifications to do same.

Assumptions usually lead to wrong conclusions.

I would appreciate if my original post's question were answered, and unqualified opinions were witheld thank you.


Well it's not as simple as that Nigel is it really?
As a general rule, using a 1.5 litre cylinder as your sole bailout for a no stop dive to 50 metres is to say the least, a little unadvisable.
You seem to be saying that it's OK to do this, please correct me if this isn't the case.
The reason people are making these comments is out of our concern for diving safety.
And believe me these people are qualified to make these statements. Any Sports Diver should be able to work out that 300-ish litres is cutting it a bit fine for a bailout from 50 metres.
As a general rule I don't even get involved with these sort of discussions, but your statement sounded like an incident waiting to happen.
You say things that seem to infer a lack of experience, and then complain that people are assuming that you are inexperienced in these matters.
Andy Nye says that a cylinder of that size would suit him for dives to 30 metres or less, and for a very experienced diver with a very low SAC that's quite possibly something that they could cope with, but 50 metres?
The nature of these fora is that people do stick their oars in a fair bit when someone says something contentious.
Don't take umbrage, we're actually trying to help.
Yes really.
;-)
Look at the worst case, a trainee diver reading this might think that using such a small cylinder is a great idea, and end up killing themselves by trying it out.
There is a responsibility that goes with publishing things on these fora, people believe that it's gospel if no-one questions it.

I thought that Vic actually did answer your original question ..... Luxfer make one and you should be able to order it through your Local dive shop.

[Nigel Kelleher]

Thanks Andy.

SDS don't show the bottle on their site, hence the question.

No, the 1.5 is enough for me and my type of diving.

Nigel

[Andy Nye]

For a no-stop down to 30m, for somebody who's done 1,000+ dives, for somebody with a SAC below 10l/min... then I agree with you, it is adequate.

But for us mere mortals with a more normal SAC and anybody even contemplating 50m where no-stop diving is highly unlikely then I maintain that it aint enough! :-)

Keith L

Fully agree with you KL, but as the other Keith didn't go into his diving and state why the 1.5 was a option for him , i merely stated my use.

Perhaps he wants it for a small O2 deco stage for minor deco's..

it's a idea way for doing deco stops with 80 % O2 for a safety / deco stops at 6 mts.

Andy

A low SAC is years of practice, small lungs , small body , very fit for my age and a smoker that has fill my lungs with **** , ;-)

[PeteM]

I would appreciate if my original post's question were answered, and unqualified opinions were witheld thank you.

Sorry mate but public fora don't work like that. If you don't want opinions then don't ask the general public and in particularly don't ask questions about things that just about everyone considers stupid.

These gentle warnings are taking it really easy, if you want to see what it can be like I suggest you post to here:-
<a href="http://groups.google.com/groups?q=rec.scuba" >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=rec.scuba</a>

Also the comment about unqualified is a bit off the mark, comments have been from a variety of DO's, TO's, commercial divers, NQI's etc.

Pete

[adamwalker]

:=15m/min to 20m; 10m/min to surface, plus stop, should make about 295lts. at 18 lts/min., which is more than average SAC.
:=
:=Plenty if needed, and the stop is not mandatory - 70 lts. or so offset against "stress".
:=
:=Thanks for your thoughts,
:=
:=Still like to get it, but mighty scarce.
:=

There's a reason why they're scarce. They aren't much use.
As has been mentioned by others in this thread, there simply isn't enough gas in a cylinder this size for an ascent from 50 metres, I know that on paper there is, just. But it does not happen that way in a real emergency situation. Iain Smith's example of a 96lts/min SAC in an emergency is not uncommon. Vic's suggestion of side mounting a 3l pony is the norm for most people.
The problem with incidents is that they are like buses, you wait all your diving life for one to happen, then three come all at once. I'll bet that if you ever really needed that spare gas from 50 metres, that something else would go wrong at the same time, like a free flow from your pony regulator, then you definitely wouldn't have enough gas to reach the surface unaided, so you get your buddy to help, and that's the time when the vis goes and you get separated for a few seconds, hey presto, panic, and you can guess the rest.
Being prepared for this sort of disaster is essential when diving so deep, which is why most people carry a minimum of a 3l pony for bailout, that's why that size cylinder is as common as muck, in fact most people would be twinning up for a dive to 50 metres, and carrying a 3l stage cylinder for decompression too.


When I was diving last year, i got a bit panicy on the ascent from 28M.
I emptied my reserve in my 15L cylinder which was at about 80bar (before i got panicy)
I then went on to empty my 3l pony just as we got to the surface.
My dive profile was not a straight ascent on the DSMB as I was panicing and i spent longer than i should have done at depth.

I was a Sports Diver at the time with 60+ Uk dives.

I have no idea why it happend, but i managed to drain two cylinders!!!

I now dive twins and use the 3L as a stage deco bottle

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

I see my original question has not been addressed, and my post has only received judgemental comments, analyses of stereotypical dive practises without having all the facts, and (probably) well-meant advice.
I didn't ask for that.
I am looking for a supplier for the bottle in question, not a comment by persons who don't know me, how and where I dive, nor my qualifications to do same.
Assumptions usually lead to wrong conclusions.
I would appreciate if my original post's question were answered, and unqualified opinions were witheld thank you.

Calm, calm... that's a bit unfair Nigel, people on these forums are only trying to help. It was your reply to Vic that concerned people a bit, you stated as your unqualified opinion that "The bottle would be a bail-out; with minimum 300lts. available air, that is enough for an ascent from 50m with a 3 min safety stop at 3-5m.". There are many of us who disagree with your opinion that 1.5l is enough for a 50m bail-out!

So lighten up a bit, these forums are mainly for self help peer to peer discussions and that's all that people were doing. We hope that you can help one of us out with an answer one day.

Dive Safe

Keith L

[Vic]

&gt; I see my original question has not been addressed

If you're done with the petulance, you'll note that my reply - the very first reply of the thread - did indeed answer your question.

If you wish to ignore my information because I think what you're suggesting is not exactly sensible, then that's your prerogative. But claiming that no-one has addressed your question is just wrong.

Vic.

[Keith L]

When I was diving last year, i got a bit panicy on the ascent from 28M.
I emptied my reserve in my 15L cylinder which was at about 80bar (before i got panicy)
I then went on to empty my 3l pony just as we got to the surface.
My dive profile was not a straight ascent on the DSMB as I was panicing and i spent longer than i should have done at depth.
I was a Sports Diver at the time with 60+ Uk dives.
I have no idea why it happend, but i managed to drain two cylinders!!!

Thanks for sharing that Adam, I am not surprised at all and you're backing up what I've been saying and what Iain has also experienced in real life situations. So, you've used 1,800 litres getting out of it - but you got out. You start running stress SAC's of 100l/min at even 30m and that's 400l of gas PER MINUTE you're down there, that look around, the fear, the thinking time, the reaction time, the action time...

As an aside I remember my first ever open water dives for NII status several years back - I trashed an *ENTIRE* 15l on two short dives to a max depth of about 10m.

I now dive twins and use the 3L as a stage deco bottle


Yup, that's what I use now, twin 10's and a 3l stage if needed. There's no way that I'd take that rig to 50m because with my 15-20l/min SAC I don't consider that to be enough gas :-) But each to their own as they say.

Keith L

[Andy Nye]

Got mine from Kent Diving ,,

Just hunted out the paperwork , as not sure where i got it.

Paid ? 68 for it

Andy

[RST]

:=When I was diving last year, i got a bit panicy on the ascent from 28M.
:=I emptied my reserve in my 15L cylinder which was at about 80bar (before i got panicy)
:=I then went on to empty my 3l pony just as we got to the surface.
:=My dive profile was not a straight ascent on the DSMB as I was panicing and i spent longer than i should have done at depth.
:=I was a Sports Diver at the time with 60+ Uk dives.
:=I have no idea why it happend, but i managed to drain two cylinders!!!

Thanks for sharing that Adam, I am not surprised at all and you're backing up what I've been saying and what Iain has also experienced in real life situations. So, you've used 1,800 litres getting out of it - but you got out. You start running stress SAC's of 100l/min at even 30m and that's 400l of gas PER MINUTE you're down there, that look around, the fear, the thinking time, the reaction time, the action time...

As an aside I remember my first ever open water dives for NII status several years back - I trashed an *ENTIRE* 15l on two short dives to a max depth of about 10m.

:=I now dive twins and use the 3L as a stage deco bottle
:=

Yup, that's what I use now, twin 10's and a 3l stage if needed. There's no way that I'd take that rig to 50m because with my 15-20l/min SAC I don't consider that to be enough gas :-) But each to their own as they say.

Keith L

Further to the thread that turned into a discussion on 1.5 v 3 litre pony bottles - I agree with the general view, and cannot see much point in using anything less than a 3 litre bottle for local diving.
However, what about diving overseas when it involves flying. One rarely sees people travelling with 3lt ponies + reg+contents gauge and I have rarely seen them for hire overseas. Club diving at home allows a 3lt pony, with a sound buddy system. Overseas, where the reality is often that you are effectively solo (in spite of lip service to a buddy system), you have limited access to an adequate pony bottle when you may need it most.
What do other flying divers do? In my experience the typical answer is nothing.
Suggestion?

[nick kay]

Theres a 2L one for sale on eBay...

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3637749386&category=19304" >http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3637749386&category=19304</a>

[Nigel Kelleher]

Thanks Nick,

Will keep my eye on it.

[David Humm]

... Ah Gotcha !!!

Lighten people it's nearly Christmas !!!

Dave

[iain h]

I always take my 3L pony abroad when I go on holiday. I wouldn't dive at home with out it so don't see why I would want to dive without it just because I'm in a different environment. In fact I would go as far as to say there would probably be more chance of needing it in warm clear waters full of once in a blue moon holiday divers!.

The Airlines are O.k. about it as long as you declare it at check in. I always ask for an extra 10kg on the normal limit so I can take all my kit + normal holiday suitcase and am just about O.k. on the total weight as long as the regs go in hand luggage.

Regards... Iain