View Full Version : Do new regs need 'bedding in'?
I've just bought a set of new Apeks ATX40's. I took them into the pool to check them out prior to a dive coming up in early December. I guess the water temp was about 18°C and depth maybe 1.5-2 metres. I'd been in the water about 5 minutes and attempted to change from the normal reg to my octopus to check it out. As I removed the octo from the mouthpiece holder it free flowed, so to stop it I put it in my mouth and it worked normally without free flowing. However my normal reg did the same when out of my mouth. I surfaced and the free flow from both stopped when I held the regs with the mouth piece pointing down. When I immersed them in the water they free flowed again slightly but did eventually stop. If I hadn't decided to swop the regs to check them both out I'd have been none the wiser.
I've just bought a set of new Apeks ATX40's. I took them into the pool to check them out prior to a dive coming up in early December. I guess the water temp was about 18°C and depth maybe 1.5-2 metres. I'd been in the water about 5 minutes and attempted to change from the normal reg to my octopus to check it out. As I removed the octo from the mouthpiece holder it free flowed, so to stop it I put it in my mouth and it worked normally without free flowing. However my normal reg did the same when out of my mouth. I surfaced and the free flow from both stopped when I held the regs with the mouth piece pointing down. When I immersed them in the water they free flowed again slightly but did eventually stop. If I hadn't decided to swop the regs to check them both out I'd have been none the wiser.
Yes in my experience, however that is not the problem you are having. Many manufacturers set regs up to be too easy to breath, Apeks (love them as I do) are one of the worst. When they do this you get exactly the symptoms you describe. Take them back to the shop and get them to detune them a bit.
The bedding in problems tends to be when they go out of tune after a couple of hours use.
Richard Whitcombe
19-11-2010, 16:49
Properly tuned primary regs should freeflow when removed from the mouth unless held face down immediately. Likewise a properly set up primary second stage should freeflow if placed upside even 1 inch below the surface of the water.
If they dont flow when upside down they aren't set up correctly.
More worryingly, a pool at 18 degrees?! What the hell! Drysuit?
Properly tuned primary regs should freeflow when removed from the mouth unless held face down immediately. Likewise a properly set up primary second stage should freeflow if placed upside even 1 inch below the surface of the water.
If they dont flow when upside down they aren't set up correctly.
I've heard this before and it doesn't make any sense to me. Why would I want regulators this marginal?
The last thing I need is a reg free-flowing, and I agree with Pete that Apeks do seem to set their regs very close to the edge. I've returned regulators for this in the past. In my opinion, for any reg that is going to spend any time out of your mouth, the tolerance is too fine.
Personally I de-tune them a bit, which is what the knob on the 50s and above allow you to do. You can do it on the 40s, but you have to know what to twiddle.
Other than this, they're great regs.
Richard Whitcombe
20-11-2010, 09:47
I've heard this before and it doesn't make any sense to me. Why would I want regulators this marginal?
Because they're designed to give gas that the slightly difference in pressure (ie the slightest inhalational effort). Regs that dont maybe fine for shallow dips but start going deeper as the W.O.B. increases the CO2 retention worsens and things go bad from there. They won't freeflow uncontrollably. If they start because you removed it from the mouth mouthpiece up simply shove your hand over the mouthpiece or put it in the mouth to stop it. This is a second stage not first stage flow.
Its not just apeks, ANY properly setup primary second stage should be set as above - if one comes back from a service and isn't id return it (or if its like apeks just adjust it as they all have cracking pressure and venturi adjustments, even the 40s. Its a 2 second job).
Take them back to the shop and get them to detune them a bit.
Difficult as I'm working abroad and got a friend to bring them out for me.
More worryingly, a pool at 18 degrees?! What the hell! Drysuit?
The compound's outdoor lagoon pool, not heated but I was fine in a 3mm wet.
or if its like apeks just adjust it as they all have cracking pressure and venturi adjustments, even the 40s. Its a 2 second job
So Richard, you're saying they're OK, but as a matter of interest the 2 second job is adjusting the lever on the left side of the second stage? I moved these from + to - while in my mouth and the difference in effort to breathe in was noticable but didn't have an effect on the free flow.
Richard Whitcombe
20-11-2010, 13:43
There are 2 adjustments, the +/- lever as you're already aware of and also one on the end in line with the actual valve. On the 50s and above this has a knob on it, on the 40s iirc it has to be adjusted with an allen key.
If you really really want to detune your regs (id personally say no as you're then using them in a way they weren't intended) then you need to adjust this. If you google for a photo of a 50 you'll see the place im on about. Second stage adjustments dont require a shop.
As for an 18 degree pool - 18 degrees is drysuit and weezle for me always. Most pools here are 28-30 and im in a 5mm shortie in those.
Spirit_of_Guernsey
20-11-2010, 15:20
Richard, you are a wimp. ;)
Just done 1.5 hours @ 12°C in a 7mm steamer.
bythesea
20-11-2010, 19:58
Put the lever to minus, if that doesn't work have the intermediate pressure on the first stage { i presume it is a DS4} dialled down half a bar, {don't try this at home unless you know what you are doing} works every time with ATX40s.... They are a great reg once you get over this issue, I have 5 and have reduced the IP on all of them, dive all with the lever on minus and they have never free flowed since.
Richard Whitcombe
20-11-2010, 20:35
All my apeks sets are on venturi and cracking pressure full positive on primaries and full negatives on backups.
Ian Wetherall
15-12-2010, 15:41
Put the lever to minus, if that doesn't work have the intermediate pressure on the first stage { i presume it is a DS4} dialled down half a bar, {don't try this at home unless you know what you are doing} works every time with ATX40s.... They are a great reg once you get over this issue, I have 5 and have reduced the IP on all of them, dive all with the lever on minus and they have never free flowed since.
What is the IP reading that you adjusted it to ??
bythesea
15-12-2010, 16:59
What is the IP reading that you adjusted it to ??
I think it is about 9.5, it was set at 10
I think it is about 9.5, it was set at 10
That is still within the limits according to the service manual - it should be between 9 and 10
i have couple sets of 40,s and they were fine untill got them serviced the first time."if it aint broke, don,t mend it"
bythesea
15-12-2010, 19:41
That is still within the limits according to the service manual - it should be between 9 and 10
Indeed, factory set they are usually at the top end, bring it down that little bit and no more issues...
Ian Wetherall
16-12-2010, 10:08
Indeed, factory set they are usually at the top end, bring it down that little bit and no more issues...
Thanks for that; I need to dial mine down once me IP gauge arrives :D
Richard Whitcombe
16-12-2010, 17:46
I always keep mine dialled up as far as spec allows. I dont like deliberately tuning the thing im going to be sucking gas from at depth.
bythesea
16-12-2010, 19:49
I always keep mine dialled up as far as spec allows. I dont like deliberately tuning the thing im going to be sucking gas from at depth.
All well and good in warm water but dropping the IP to 9.5 is still within guidelines and will deliver gas just as well without tipping over the edge into free flow. Leaving them all the way up knowing a free flow is likely would be, I believe the phrase is, farm yard stupid...
Richard Whitcombe
16-12-2010, 22:52
Never had one freeflow even max spec on the IP. I detune my necklaced backup on the second stage lever itself and dive my primary on full +. Not had an issue even in 2c water and below 0 air.
Having tried adjusting the Inhalation Resistance Control Knob to no avail and seeing the Integrated Venturi Switch have no effect on my problem, I requested some advice from Woz prior to a 2 day liveaboard. I checked the IP which was set at 10b. After further adjustment he recommended which appeared to cure the freeflow in the octopus but not my main reg (water temp was 29°C, can't blame it on cold water) I contacted Apeks (again) and have arranged to have the regs checked over properly at their Blackburn factory whilst I'm in the UK over the New Year. I'll let you know what, if anything, they find or recommend.
benltdiverdude
17-12-2010, 21:11
When i take my regulator out of my mouth you get a flow of few bubbles if it is put right upside down, if it does this, sort out what your breathing and turn it mouthpiece down,mine bubbles so slowly its not really a problem for me , but if you get more of a free flow, i would get this sorted out. just thought id share my experience.
Ben
Richard Whitcombe
26-12-2010, 20:38
A properly tuned second stage should bubble when upside down and not in a mouth.
A properly tuned second stage should bubble when upside down and not in a mouth.No it shouldn't. It should bubble if you immerse it face down with the mouthpiece in the air. A properly tuned 2nd stage shouldn't bubble at all unless you wave it around a bit. Otherwise all those necklaced backup regs you see would be bubbling away like billy-oh.
If you dive Apeks regs, they should be left on -unless you are in the water when they can be set to +. Then they might freeflow when out of your mouth.
John Bantin
27-12-2010, 11:48
Correct, Woz. Regulators should not freeflow when dropped from the mouth. It was one of the things we tested for. http://www.divernet.com/Diving_Gear/group_tests/679339/light_breathers.html
Correct, Woz. Regulators should not freeflow when dropped from the mouth. It was one of the things we tested for. http://www.divernet.com/Diving_Gear/group_tests/679339/light_breathers.htmlIf you need someone else to go out to the Red Sea to help you with those reg tests, I'm very cheap and can right good Ingleesh ;)
Richard Whitcombe
03-01-2011, 14:36
If you dive Apeks regs, they should be left on -unless you are in the water when they can be set to +. Then they might freeflow when out of your mouth.
Never had a problem with any Apeks doing that. All my primaries live on full ++ all the time.
Ian Wetherall
04-01-2011, 12:46
Update
I received my IP gauge and the IP is 11.5 BAR :eek:
Will dial that down now i have the necessary tools (made by a kindly gent for me ) :D
Took my regs down to Blackburn yesterday and one of their technicians sorted them out while I waited, supping a cuppa. He then indicated what the problem had been and gave me some info on what they should and should not do; impressive customer support.
Apparently the Inhalation Resistance Control Knob was way out of adjustment. The technician also confirmed that when placed mouthpiece up into water the reg should bubble and stop when the reg is positioned mouthpiece down; also if possible the octopus should be positioned mouthpiece down whilst diving and not be secured with a scumball.
Nigel Hewitt
05-01-2011, 14:46
The technician also confirmed that when placed mouthpiece up into water the reg should bubble and stop when the reg is positioned mouthpiece down.
ROTFL
So all of us with regs hanging from necklaces all these years are doing it wrong.
Oh well....
Just passing on what I was told, I'll see how my regs perform when I get them back in the water.
Have a little think about what's happening inside your 2nd stage. If it's full of water and immersed, there is no differential pressure on the diaphragm to push the lever.
If, however, you put the reg purge button down into a sink of water, there is a differential pressure of the small head of water that is the difference in height between the hole in the mouthpiece and the diaphragm.
On high performance balanced 2nd stages, this is enough force to push the lever and pull the seat off the crown making the reg bubble. On standard unbalanced 2nd stages, the inhalation resistance is higher due to the lever spring so they tend not to bubble.
If you are necklacing a reg, then the inside is likely to be full of water therefore no differential pressure. However movement through the water (fast finning or scootering) can push the diaphragm in so that's why you detune a necklaced backup reg.
If you take a primary reg out of your mouth underwater, the air in the 2nd stage body empties through the mouthpiece. If the venturi is set to + this air movement is enough to set off a freeflow if it's finely tuned as the exiting gas causes enough of a drop in pressure inside the 2nd stage to pull the diaphragm in. If the venturi is set to - then this air movement isn't enough to set off a freeflow as there is little or no venturi effect to drop the internal pressure.
Balanced 2nd stages use a little chamber that acts in conjunction with the lever spring to force the seat onto the crown. When you inhale, you just have to overcome a small spring pressure then the balance chamber vents- this is why balanced 2nd stages are easier to breathe from as you don't have to suck against 100% spring pressure- just a little spring. Clever and when you strip a reg, very simple.
See- almost like I know what I'm talking about. It's like I'm MD of an engineering company or something :D
bythesea
06-01-2011, 14:04
Update
I received my IP gauge and the IP is 11.5 BAR :eek:
Will dial that down now i have the necessary tools (made by a kindly gent for me ) :D
That is high, unless you are diving a Poseidon, maybe worth checking the seat for wear?
Ian Wetherall
06-01-2011, 15:25
That is high, unless you are diving a Poseidon, maybe worth checking the seat for wear?
Brand new they be :confused:
ATX 40's and DS/4
I'll be taking both sets of me regs for a cold water test and adjust half a bar at first on the off chance my gauge is reading high.My old set work so may use this as a baseline for my gauge
bythesea
06-01-2011, 15:56
Brand new they be :confused:
ATX 40's and DS/4
Shouldn't be any wear issues then but 11.5 is very high, still, sorted now eh...
Ian Wetherall
07-01-2011, 09:00
Shouldn't be any wear issues then but 11.5 is very high, still, sorted now eh...
This weekend they will be :D
Brand new they be
ATX 40's and DS/4
Same as mine; hopefully not a trend from Apeks.
Same as mine; hopefully not a trend from Apeks.
Read my second post on this thread. This is not anti Apeks, I've eight.
Ian Wetherall
11-01-2011, 08:39
Well they are set up and sorted now
Dialled the IP down and set the crack pressures as per instructions above
So many thanks to both By The Sea and Woz for this invaluable info :cool:
bythesea
11-01-2011, 09:27
No worries, happy freeflow free diving
grey.squirrel
12-01-2011, 20:37
Cheers for the info Woz. I almost felt like I understood you.
Ian Wetherall
26-01-2011, 12:35
Shameless update
Dived Chepstow last weekend which was sat at a balmy 5 degrees and the regs performed faultlessly for my hour of slobbing about.
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