View Full Version : More SMBs!
Hi
When I was first taught to dive some time ago I was told to clip a reel/SMB to myself after it was inflated and on the surface. I no longer do this for a variety of reasons, but I would be very interested to hear from anyone who does, and their reasons for doing so.
Regards
Rich
When I was first taught to dive some time ago I was told to clip a reel/SMB to myself after it was inflated and on the surface. I no longer do this for a variety of reasons, but I would be very interested to hear from anyone who does, and their reasons for doing so.
I can give you plenty of examples of why not to....
Mike Halligan
18-09-2003, 14:10
Hi
When I was first taught to dive some time ago I was told to clip a reel/SMB to myself after it was inflated and on the surface. I no longer do this for a variety of reasons, but I would be very interested to hear from anyone who does, and their reasons for doing so.
I was taught to clip on, but I was then told not to by a BSAC school - and given several graphic descriptions of why not.
I have never clipped on, or taught, or agreed to clipping on since then. In extremis, I can live with someone (else) who clips on using a squeeze-release they are able to disengage under tension.
Regards,
Mike
Nigel Hewitt
18-09-2003, 18:37
When I was first taught to dive some time ago I was told to clip a reel/SMB to myself after it was inflated and on the surface. I no longer do this for a variety of reasons, but I would be very interested to hear from anyone who does, and their reasons for doing so.
I wouldn't clip a reel to myself but I do select the sort of reel where the handle is a closed loop so I can poke my fingers through it and still use the hand with the reel trapped. I can see why the temptation to clip if off comes from if it monopolises a whole hand.
nigelH
(edited to add picture as I didn't think it made much sense when I read it back)
nick kay
19-09-2003, 17:08
Any reason why it shouldn't be clipped to the diver once DSMB and diver are (together) on the surface?
steve swift
19-09-2003, 21:45
:=When I was first taught to dive some time ago I was told to clip a reel/SMB to myself after it was inflated and on the surface. I no longer do this for a variety of reasons, but I would be very interested to hear from anyone who does, and their reasons for doing so.
I can give you plenty of examples of why not to....
I would be interested to hear/ see your examples...
Steve
I would be interested to hear/ see your examples...
Do any diving near boat traffic Steve?
Imagine the fun when a prop starts to winch you up!!!!
Is that a good enough reason?
TerryH
:=
:=I would be interested to hear/ see your examples...
:=
Do any diving near boat traffic Steve?
Imagine the fun when a prop starts to winch you up!!!!
Is that a good enough reason?
Yep that was a couple of examples, the other was when the DSMB got hooked on something on a boat, ladder I believe and when the boat moved off they would have been doing a bit of underwater water skiing if they could not have ditched it
Pete
steve swift
22-09-2003, 13:47
:=Do any diving near boat traffic Steve?
:=Imagine the fun when a prop starts to winch you up!!!!
the other was when the DSMB got hooked on something on a boat, ladder I believe and when the boat moved off they would have been doing a bit of underwater water skiing if they could not have ditched it
Terry, Pete,
If I am going to dive where there is boat traffic, someone in the boat keeps an eye on the SMBs and puts himself and our boat firmly in the way of traffic and my SMB. Similarly, someone on the boat keeps an eye on the SMB and, if it is at all close to the boat, informs the skipper/ cox so he can move away before it gets tangled, or at least doesn't move away while it is tangled.
I am interested to know whether you have first hand experience of this happening, ie either as diver or as a witness, or whether it is one of those horror stories that has not actually happened. I remeber being told this when i was a newbie, but in nearly 18 yrs as a diver, and 3 as a full time instructor, i have never even come close to it happening. Nor can I remember reading about it happening in the BSAC incidents summaries (although i am pleased to be corrected).
Steve
i have re read my post and think it could be construed the wrong way (the problem with words and no body language or vocal inflections to convey tone and mood)so a caveat: I am not trying to pick an argument. Rather, i like to challenge my own ideas by listening to others ideas/ experiences (such as the one I previously mentioned where i was told never to attach the SMB to me, for fear of getting fouled in a boat prop, but decided from my own experiences that this was not necessarily correct as it was extremely unlikely
Terry, Pete,
If I am going to dive where there is boat traffic, someone in the boat keeps an eye on the SMBs and puts himself and our boat firmly in the way of traffic and my SMB. Similarly, someone on the boat keeps an eye on the SMB and, if it is at all close to the boat, informs the skipper/ cox so he can move away before it gets tangled, or at least doesn't move away while it is tangled.
Hmmm, so you have 12 divers and 6 blobs.
That's some crew that can monitor/protect 6 DSMB's!
As for evidence, yes It has happend on two occasions (that I
personally know of). Not actually winched up, but the boats
went right over the top. Only needs to get tangled for the
diver below to go for a ride. It might break, but who knows?
Apart from that just watch the boats on the Kyarra, Hood, Erne
etc.etc. Your tethered, you come up a little (go over a
rock/wreck etc). Line goes a bit slack and the blob is still
erect (oh er missis!), but the line is now trailing shallow.
The boat traffic is avoiding your blob (if your lucky), but
cant see that you (because you dont have it under tension
anymore) are not directly (almost) underneath it.
So your boat clips the cord and away you go.
If we lived in a world where the DSMB was respected then I'd
have no problems with clipping on. We dont though do we?
TerryH
steve swift
22-09-2003, 16:31
Hmmm, so you have 12 divers and 6 blobs.
That's some crew that can monitor/protect 6 DSMB's!
We might be on about two separate issues. I wouldnt have a DSMB clipped on as i would be using it. I thougt the original question was about SMBs, ie having reached depth, clip it on and forget it until a change indepth requires you to alter the length of line.
As for evidence, yes It has happend on two occasions (that I
personally know of). Not actually winched up, but the boats
went right over the top. Only needs to get tangled for the
diver below to go for a ride. It might break, but who knows?
But my question was, have you have actually seen the line being caught scenario?
Apart from that just watch the boats on the Kyarra, Hood, Erne
This could also be the two different issue thing: I have dived the Hood and Erne and wouldn't use a SMB, but would use a DSMB on the ascent. I have also seen the boats on the James Eagan Layne which can be like Picadilly Circus on weekends, and still not come across divers being pulled up by a boat.
etc.etc. Your tethered, you come up a little (go over a
rock/wreck etc). Line goes a bit slack and the blob is still
erect (oh er missis!), but the line is now trailing shallow.
The boat traffic is avoiding your blob (if your lucky), but
cant see that you (because you dont have it under tension
anymore) are not directly (almost) underneath it.
Firstly, it would have to be a big rock for the line to go so slack that the boat going over it could catch it. Any change in depth that big, the user should reel in some of the line, other wise he is more likely to get tangled in the line himself.
Secondly, would the blob still stay erect (oh er!)? I would thought that any loss of tension would cause to flop...
Steve
:=
We might be on about two separate issues. I wouldnt have a DSMB clipped on as i would be using it. I thougt the original question was about SMBs, ie having reached depth, clip it on and forget it until a change indepth requires you to alter the length of line.
SMB, DSMB no difference. You have a blob attached to you via a
line.
:=
But my question was, have you have actually seen the line being caught scenario?
No, neither have I seen a prop go through somebodies head, but
I dont need to see it to know that my head and a prop dont go
together!
This could also be the two different issue thing: I have dived the Hood and Erne and wouldn't use a SMB, but would use a DSMB on the ascent. I have also seen the boats on the James Eagan Layne which can be like Picadilly Circus on weekends, and still not come across divers being pulled up by a boat.
Err as soon as you deploy a DSMB it becomes and SMB. You seem
to be saying that it's ok to clip on a SMB, but not a DSMB.
What's the diffrence?
So you need an actual incident to proove that doing it is for
muppets!
:=
Firstly, it would have to be a big rock for the line to go so slack that the boat going over it could catch it. Any change in depth that big, the user should reel in some of the line, other wise he is more likely to get tangled in the line himself.
Secondly, would the blob still stay erect (oh er!)? I would thought that any loss of tension would cause to flop...
Big rock is called a wreck. They can be very big you know.
The big rock can also be called a drop-off and has a similar
effect.
If we follow your train of thought then in fact the SMB is far
worse. It stays wherre it is and has no visible method of
telling a boat handler where the line is.
Only DSMB's flop over.
TerryH
:=:=Do any diving near boat traffic Steve?
:=:=Imagine the fun when a prop starts to winch you up!!!!
the other was when the DSMB got hooked on something on a boat, ladder I believe and when the boat moved off they would have been doing a bit of underwater water skiing if they could not have ditched it
Terry, Pete,
If I am going to dive where there is boat traffic, someone in the boat keeps an eye on the SMBs and puts himself and our boat firmly in the way of traffic and my SMB. Similarly, someone on the boat keeps an eye on the SMB and, if it is at all close to the boat, informs the skipper/ cox so he can move away before it gets tangled, or at least doesn't move away while it is tangled.
I am interested to know whether you have first hand experience of this happening, ie either as diver or as a witness, or whether it is one of those horror stories that has not actually happened. I remeber being told this when i was a newbie, but in nearly 18 yrs as a diver, and 3 as a full time instructor, i have never even come close to it happening. Nor can I remember reading about it happening in the BSAC incidents summaries (although i am pleased to be corrected).
Steve
i have re read my post and think it could be construed the wrong way (the problem with words and no body language or vocal inflections to convey tone and mood)so a caveat: I am not trying to pick an argument. Rather, i like to challenge my own ideas by listening to others ideas/ experiences (such as the one I previously mentioned where i was told never to attach the SMB to me, for fear of getting fouled in a boat prop, but decided from my own experiences that this was not necessarily correct as it was extremely unlikely
Happened to a very good friend of mine. She was surfacing after a dive; DSMB went up no problem, reel stopped spinning, she starts to wind and suddenly it starts getting pulled very fast. Fortunately she had the presence of mind to ditch it.
What had happened was the DSMB had surfaced so close to the boat no one could see it, may have even been between the hulls. As the boat moved off it got caught on something (IIRC the ladder) and started pulling, if it had been clipped off then she would have been dragged to the surface if she could not unclip it.
The total amount of boat traffic on the site was one - the boat she was diving from, so there was no way her surface cover could protect her. There were people watching for blobs but due to the circumstances they could not see it.
Another guy in our club had a blob shredded by a rib prop as it hit the surface.
So it does happen, may be not often but often enough not to compromise my safety by clipping on. To be honest I don't actually see any real advantage to clipping on, if its a drift dive I have a the reel over the back of my hand like a goodman handle so its no problem. When surfacing I want it in my hand to make winding easier and on stops I tend to let the reel hang in front of me or if its a bit bouncy I hook my thumb through the bungy loop that normally holds the blob on it before deployment
HTH
Pete
steve swift
22-09-2003, 19:46
SMB, DSMB no difference. You have a blob attached to you via a
line.
They're not really the same, especially if you read the context of the paragragh in my previous post. Anyway, to clarify what i am referring to: an SMB as a blob that stays on the surface ; a DSMB as a blob that is inflated underwater prior to the the ascent. (the DSMB that is inflated at the start of the dive and then used throughout the dive counts as a SMB). The two have completely different uses and, therefore in the context of this discussion can be considered differently: The diver using an SMB once at depth (and providing it is going to remain fairly constant) could clip it onto his kit and forget about it. Should there be any change in depth, be it a wreck, drop off, change in seabed level or the ascent, the diver should get hold of the reel and reel in the line appropriately. On the final ascent, as he is going to use it constantly he would probably, but not necessairly, unclip it. The diver using the DSMB is basically doing the last part of the SMB dive. As he wont have had it clipped to him for the deployment there is little to be gained from clipping it on and he will carry out the ascent under the DSMB.
:=But my question was, have you have actually seen the line being caught scenario?
:=
No, neither have I seen a prop go through somebodies head, but
I dont need to see it to know that my head and a prop dont go
together!
But I have seen a hand and a leg in touch with a propellor so I do know what damage they can do.
Err as soon as you deploy a DSMB it becomes and SMB. You seem
to be saying that it's ok to clip on a SMB, but not a DSMB.
What's the diffrence?
No, See above
So you need an actual incident to proove that doing it is for
muppets!
Normally we know that doing something is for muppets because of someone else's experiences/ research. All I was asking for was whether anyone had any previous experience of SMB or DSMB line getting tangled in a boat prop etc - and whether that was direct experience as opposed to an urban myth passed down by word of mouth through the training system. i have yet to experience it, or to know anyone who has direct experience of it, or to read about it happening to someone in the BSAC incident reports. Why, therefore, should I not challenge it as an assumption? IIRC you are at a university club, and so are presumably a student (or have been one). Isn't this how research works?
Big rock is called a wreck. They can be very big you know.
The big rock can also be called a drop-off and has a similar
effect.
Again, if you had read my post, a you would know that I am aware of how big wrecks can be. My point remains, as I alluded to earlier, if there is any change in depth, the diver must alter the length of his line appropriately. So if he goes up over a big wreck he should reel in the line. Granted, that if he doesn't there may well be line lying on the surface, but he is not using the equipment in the way it is supposed to be used.
If we follow your train of thought then in fact the SMB is far
worse. It stays wherre it is and has no visible method of
telling a boat handler where the line is.
If you follow my train of thought, it doesnt matter what MB is being used, the cox will know that the divers are under the blob.
Only DSMB's flop over.
Not true. I have seen plenty of different SMBs which have flopped onto their side when there has been insufficient tension on the line (the best was an inflatable sheep!!).
To summarise. Has anyone any direct experience of the (D)SMB line being fouled in a boat propellor or similar and the divers being pulled to the surface, or having to let go of the reel, as a consequence?
Steve
> To summarise. Has anyone any direct experience of the (D)SMB
> line being fouled in a boat propellor or similar and the divers
> being pulled to the surface, or having to let go of the reel, as
> a consequence?
Yes.
It happened to me just off Portland. A skipper who ought to know better ran through a group of DSMBs and caught mine on his boat. Because I hadn't clipped the thing on, I didn't get dragged to the surface...
Vic.
steve swift
22-09-2003, 21:47
> To summarise. Has anyone any direct experience of the (D)SMB
> line being fouled in a boat propellor or similar and the divers
> being pulled to the surface, or having to let go of the reel, as
> a consequence?
Yes.
It happened to me just off Portland. A skipper who ought to know better ran through a group of DSMBs and caught mine on his boat. Because I hadn't clipped the thing on, I didn't get dragged to the surface...
Vic.
Thanks Vic, at least I now know that it has happened. I wonder just how often it has happened though. I was told not to, together with the many associated horror stories, in the early 1980s, so how often did it happen before then?
Was your incident with a DSMB during the ascent on a crowded wreck site? The point i am getting at is: on a drift or scenic dive in the wide open spaces is where i am more likely to want to clip an SMB on and forget. There is much less chance of getting fouled by a boat than on a busy wreck, where i am unlikely to use a SMB and simply use a DSMB for the ascent. During an ascent with either S or D SMB I would not be clipped on because i would be using it
Steve
steve swift
22-09-2003, 22:01
:=:=:=Do any diving near boat traffic Steve?
:=:=:=Imagine the fun when a prop starts to winch you up!!!!
:=
:=the other was when the DSMB got hooked on something on a boat, ladder I believe and when the boat moved off they would have been doing a bit of underwater water skiing if they could not have ditched it
:=
:=Terry, Pete,
:=If I am going to dive where there is boat traffic, someone in the boat keeps an eye on the SMBs and puts himself and our boat firmly in the way of traffic and my SMB. Similarly, someone on the boat keeps an eye on the SMB and, if it is at all close to the boat, informs the skipper/ cox so he can move away before it gets tangled, or at least doesn't move away while it is tangled.
:=
:=I am interested to know whether you have first hand experience of this happening, ie either as diver or as a witness, or whether it is one of those horror stories that has not actually happened. I remeber being told this when i was a newbie, but in nearly 18 yrs as a diver, and 3 as a full time instructor, i have never even come close to it happening. Nor can I remember reading about it happening in the BSAC incidents summaries (although i am pleased to be corrected).
:=
:=Steve
:=
:=i have re read my post and think it could be construed the wrong way (the problem with words and no body language or vocal inflections to convey tone and mood)so a caveat: I am not trying to pick an argument. Rather, i like to challenge my own ideas by listening to others ideas/ experiences (such as the one I previously mentioned where i was told never to attach the SMB to me, for fear of getting fouled in a boat prop, but decided from my own experiences that this was not necessarily correct as it was extremely unlikely
Happened to a very good friend of mine. She was surfacing after a dive; DSMB went up no problem, reel stopped spinning, she starts to wind and suddenly it starts getting pulled very fast. Fortunately she had the presence of mind to ditch it.
What had happened was the DSMB had surfaced so close to the boat no one could see it, may have even been between the hulls. As the boat moved off it got caught on something (IIRC the ladder) and started pulling, if it had been clipped off then she would have been dragged to the surface if she could not unclip it.
The total amount of boat traffic on the site was one - the boat she was diving from, so there was no way her surface cover could protect her. There were people watching for blobs but due to the circumstances they could not see it.
Another guy in our club had a blob shredded by a rib prop as it hit the surface.
So it does happen, may be not often but often enough not to compromise my safety by clipping on. To be honest I don't actually see any real advantage to clipping on, if its a drift dive I have a the reel over the back of my hand like a goodman handle so its no problem. When surfacing I want it in my hand to make winding easier and on stops I tend to let the reel hang in front of me or if its a bit bouncy I hook my thumb through the bungy loop that normally holds the blob on it before deployment
HTH
Thanks Pete, Vic has given an example too. That's why I asked the previous poster (oops, that'll be you then!! :-)) to put down his many reasons. As i have said, i wouldnt clip on a DSMB as i wouldnt have it attached to me during the deployment.
Steve
Mike Halligan
22-09-2003, 22:33
Just to throw in another risk.
We see PWC users buzzing blobs, of whatever sort, as a matter of routine. I don't suppose for a second the difference between SMB and DSMB is known or understood by PWC users. Now, I know these things have smooth undersides and next-to-no chance of snagging with the power unit. However, we also see PWC with bits and pieces, users, sprogs, ringos and bodyboards hanging from them.
Snag the (D)SMB-line? I rather think so, whether taut or no.
I've no objection to PWC, by the way. Once you've got one, however, there's little you can do but razz around on it making lots of noise, spray and wash - which all seems somewhat futile to me.
Mike
Andy Wade
22-09-2003, 23:09
To summarise. Has anyone any direct experience of the (D)SMB line being fouled in a boat propellor or similar and the divers being pulled to the surface, or having to let go of the reel, as a consequence?
Yes.
I was diving a flattened wreck in about 12 metres depth when my reel actually got hooked by a grapnel from another dive boat, they had missed hooking the wreck and caught a bl**dy big fish instead....Me!
Fortunately I had it on a loose loop around my wrist so I just let go, but I was at 8 metres by that time.
I went back down to my buddy who was looking around to see where I had disappeared to, and we ascended.
We had words with the divers in the other boat, (they couldn't deny it as they still had my reel attached to my blob) and I also had words with the Cox of our boat for letting them drop a grapnel hook in so close to our blob.
The loose loop worked quite well on this occasion, but now I'd hold it in my hand rather than on my wrist.... or get better and more vigilant boat cover crew..... Or use a DSMB, but not attached directly to me whilst underwater.
Having said all this it's the only time I've ever personally heard of it happening in 26 years of diving.
.
steve swift
22-09-2003, 23:43
Just to throw in another risk.
We see PWC users buzzing blobs, of whatever sort, as a matter of routine. I don't suppose for a second the difference between SMB and DSMB is known or understood by PWC users. Now, I know these things have smooth undersides and next-to-no chance of snagging with the power unit. However, we also see PWC with bits and pieces, users, sprogs, ringos and bodyboards hanging from them.
Snag the (D)SMB-line? I rather think so, whether taut or no.
I've no objection to PWC, by the way. Once you've got one, however, there's little you can do but razz around on it making lots of noise, spray and wash - which all seems somewhat futile to me.
Mike
Mike
This brings me back to the point about good boat cover... I think Pete brings up the best scenario/ example for not not clipping on a DSMB, and Andy's (and Vic's possibly)for not clipping on an SMB.
Steve
steve swift
22-09-2003, 23:47
:=To summarise. Has anyone any direct experience of the (D)SMB line being fouled in a boat propellor or similar and the divers being pulled to the surface, or having to let go of the reel, as a consequence?
:=
Yes.
I was diving a flattened wreck in about 12 metres depth when my reel actually got hooked by a grapnel from another dive boat, they had missed hooking the wreck and caught a bl**dy big fish instead....Me!
Fortunately I had it on a loose loop around my wrist so I just let go, but I was at 8 metres by that time.
I went back down to my buddy who was looking around to see where I had disappeared to, and we ascended.
We had words with the divers in the other boat, (they couldn't deny it as they still had my reel attached to my blob) and I also had words with the Cox of our boat for letting them drop a grapnel hook in so close to our blob.
The loose loop worked quite well on this occasion, but now I'd hold it in my hand rather than on my wrist.... or get better and more vigilant boat cover crew..... Or use a DSMB, but not attached directly to me whilst underwater.
Having said all this it's the only time I've ever personally heard of it happening in 26 years of diving.
Andy
Now that's just the sort of example I was looking for. Although, as with Mike's later post, it does bring me back to the point about good boat cover....
Many thanks
Steve
iainmsmith
23-09-2003, 10:59
:=I was diving a flattened wreck in about 12 metres depth when my reel actually got hooked by a grapnel from another dive boat, they had missed hooking the wreck and caught a bl**dy big fish instead....Me!
:=Fortunately I had it on a loose loop around my wrist so I just let go, but I was at 8 metres by that time.
:=I went back down to my buddy who was looking around to see where I had disappeared to, and we ascended.
:=We had words with the divers in the other boat, (they couldn't deny it as they still had my reel attached to my blob) and I also had words with the Cox of our boat for letting them drop a grapnel hook in so close to our blob.
:=
:=The loose loop worked quite well on this occasion, but now I'd hold it in my hand rather than on my wrist.... or get better and more vigilant boat cover crew..... Or use a DSMB, but not attached directly to me whilst underwater.
Now that's just the sort of example I was looking for. Although, as with Mike's later post, it does bring me back to the point about good boat cover....
That's all very well, but is it a good idea to be reliant on someone else to protect you (bearing in mind that we're all human and however good we are at what we do, we all have bad days), when you can avoid the situation by the simple means of not attaching the SMB to you?
Iain
Adrian Kelland
23-09-2003, 12:13
Now that's just the sort of example I was looking for. Although, as with Mike's later post, it does bring me back to the point about good boat cover....
Many thanks
Steve
Obviously good boat cover is important, but you have no boat cover while that boat is recovering other divers.
Adrian
mike halligan
23-09-2003, 15:02
This brings me back to the point about good boat cover... I think Pete brings up the best scenario/ example for not not clipping on a DSMB, and Andy's (and Vic's possibly)for not clipping on an SMB.
Steve,
Let us take as read that when a drift is planned, one must provide two boats. Let's take equally that drifts happen even when they're not planned.
To provide the standard of boat cover you indicate you expect when you wish, or may become forced, to deploy your SMB, I guess we would need two boats, each with a cox of at least RYA Advanced (and probably a pursuit driving course) and a RM Commando, or equivalent in presence and self-confidence, to hail.
Even then, -
* Have you ever tried to rationalise with PWC users?
* When recovering one group, who's minding the other divers?
* When tidal sheer takes one group (hopefully a buddy pair) in one direction and a second (buddy pair?) in the opposite direction, where does the singleton boat cover go?
* When this has happened, how far clear of the original site must you stay to avoid DSMBs freshly deployed as buddy pairs part company?
I think you are being unfair to your boathandlers and I hope you explain your expectations to them in detail.
I still conclude it is the divers' responsibility to mark himself in a safe manner, and that means (to me) holding the reel loosely in the hand.
Regards,
Mike
Chris Tibble
23-09-2003, 20:42
:=> To summarise. Has anyone any direct experience of the (D)SMB
:=> line being fouled in a boat propellor or similar and the divers
:=> being pulled to the surface, or having to let go of the reel, as
:=> a consequence?
:=
:=Yes.
:=
:=It happened to me just off Portland. A skipper who ought to know better ran through a group of DSMBs and caught mine on his boat. Because I hadn't clipped the thing on, I didn't get dragged to the surface...
:=
:=Vic.
Thanks Vic, at least I now know that it has happened. I wonder just how often it has happened though. I was told not to, together with the many associated horror stories, in the early 1980s, so how often did it happen before then?
Was your incident with a DSMB during the ascent on a crowded wreck site? The point i am getting at is: on a drift or scenic dive in the wide open spaces is where i am more likely to want to clip an SMB on and forget. There is much less chance of getting fouled by a boat than on a busy wreck, where i am unlikely to use a SMB and simply use a DSMB for the ascent. During an ascent with either S or D SMB I would not be clipped on because i would be using it
Steve
Happened to me (sort of) on the Baygetano in Lyme Bay. Skipper dropped the shot down and we went down with an SMB (I was quite inexperienced at the time...) which managed to get caught as the Skipper winches up said shot and my line goes with it. Cue me with my heels dragging in the silt attempting to stop it. Strangely enough I wasn't stronger than the winch, so I had to let it go... If it were attached to me at the time, it wouldn't have injured me, but would have been even more embarrasing than it turned out to be!
Chris
steve swift
24-09-2003, 00:26
Steve,
Let us take as read that when a drift is planned, one must provide two boats. Let's take equally that drifts happen even when they're not planned.
To provide the standard of boat cover you indicate you expect when you wish, or may become forced, to deploy your SMB, I guess we would need two boats, each with a cox of at least RYA Advanced (and probably a pursuit driving course) and a RM Commando, or equivalent in presence and self-confidence, to hail.
Even then, -
* Have you ever tried to rationalise with PWC users?
* When recovering one group, who's minding the other divers?
* When tidal sheer takes one group (hopefully a buddy pair) in one direction and a second (buddy pair?) in the opposite direction, where does the singleton boat cover go?
* When this has happened, how far clear of the original site must you stay to avoid DSMBs freshly deployed as buddy pairs part company?
I think you are being unfair to your boathandlers and I hope you explain your expectations to them in detail.
I still conclude it is the divers' responsibility to mark himself in a safe manner, and that means (to me) holding the reel loosely in the hand.
Yep
All good points. I don't want to get into a different discussion about boat handling and surface cover: In the beginning i was just asking whether anyone had actually had it happen to them or whether it was one of those urban myths. the question was based on the fact that I had not experienced it, know anyone who has experienced it or read of anyone experiencing it. It appears that there are a few to whomit has happened. I am happy therefore that i have evidence to support the contention that it is best not to clip on.
Safe diving (unclipped ;-))
Steve
steve swift
24-09-2003, 00:27
:=Now that's just the sort of example I was looking for. Although, as with Mike's later post, it does bring me back to the point about good boat cover....
:=Many thanks
:=Steve
Obviously good boat cover is important, but you have no boat cover while that boat is recovering other divers.
All good points. I don't want to get into a different discussion about boat handling and surface cover: In the beginning i was just asking whether anyone had actually had it happen to them or whether it was one of those urban myths. the question was based on the fact that I had not experienced it, know anyone who has experienced it or read of anyone experiencing it. It appears that there are a few to whomit has happened. I am happy therefore that i have evidence to support the contention that it is best not to clip on.
Safe diving (unclipped ;-))
Steve
DeepDigit
24-09-2003, 20:52
Hi
When I was first taught to dive some time ago I was told to clip a reel/SMB to myself after it was inflated and on the surface. I no longer do this for a variety of reasons, but I would be very interested to hear from anyone who does, and their reasons for doing so.
Regards
Rich
------------------------------------------------------
Me too
I still do attach the SMB on occasion(DSMB after sccessful deployment), but I a have pinch release in the tether, which works quite well.
Several years ago I was doing a night dive on the countess of erne, quite spooky, anyway they (the charter) thought an SMB with a glow sticky thing attached would be a good idea.
On this dive it was my turn to do the SMB, about 10 minutes into the dive somewhere near the forward cargo hatch, I was snatched from my buddy into the gloom at what felt quite an alarming rate.
In moments I had realised and was groping up the tether for the pinch clip, I squeezed and watched my PlayAway SMB reel dissapear into the dark as I fell to the sea bed in a rather big cloud of silt.
After a moment collecting my thoughts I checked my compass, swam east for a few minutes and hit the wreck, I had obviously lost my buddies and I had no SMB(no spare back then) so I had to follow the Countess to the stern and return up the shot.
On surfacing a boat approached, offering a very deflated SMB and reel and apologising profusely, it had backed over it (it wasn't our charter boat). I have no idea how close I came to the boat, on checking the computer after, I had been towed from about 10M to 5M before falling back to about 14+M.
I have also had my reel snatched from me by a boat off Swanage over the Kyarra, I was on a my stops and watched on one of those rare good vis occassions as the boat reversed into the DSMB, I was at the time holding it (Kyarra sites a bit iffy for attaching it) the boat then went forward and it took off for about 30 yrds and I followed slowly behind to try and retrieve it, I did eventually recover it, just in time to finish my stop, I was to say the least a bit peaved.
Places like Horsea I will attach my SMB and tow it along, drifts I'll generally hold it(unattached) as I do on most dives with deco stops, I don't think theres a rule really, you just have to look the site, the dive, how busy it is and make a risk assesment on the spot.
Dive Safe :-)
John Duncan
26-09-2003, 16:30
The question of "to clip or not to clip" is one that agencies vary in their use of. PADI, for example, do not even mention SMB's in diving (except in the manual) in my experience. I find that when diving I hold my DSMB so i can tension it and release it as need be, but on long stops the reel should be clipped on as this allows the diver to lie in a horizontal position and get the benifit of that deco depth for the whole body. It has been known for a sore arm from hanging on to a DSMB for a long time to be mistaken for DCI or for the DCI risk to be increaed in that arm due to the possible strains that joint may be under. As you may known, a stess at the end of a dive CAN lead to a DCI so your total body should be as relaxed as possible to get the full benifits of DECO.....
....or that is how I see it, at least.
JD
Sarah Gauci Carlton
02-10-2003, 18:44
Re the question of whether anyone has had the experience of an SMB or DSMB tangled in a propellor, this has happened to me on a couple of occasions. Fortunately, once the SMB was tied round a large rock so I simply lost the SMB(I was teaching CBL at the time close inshore in about 10m of clear water and wanted to alert boats to the fact that divers may surface!. On another occasion my DSMB was towed and I just let go. Another time a fisherman pulled up my DSMB to see if anything was attached! So no, I wouldn't reccommend attaching a DSMB to yourself by anything other than your fingers. Of course, if you only do boat dives and have the exclusive attention of a boatman, maybe it is a different situation. We often dive from the shore in locations which are also frequented by pleasure boats who don't necessarily have too much between their ears!
Hope this helps.
Sarah
:=:=
:=SMB, DSMB no difference. You have a blob attached to you via a
:=line.
They're not really the same, especially if you read the context of the paragragh in my previous post. Anyway, to clarify what i am referring to: an SMB as a blob that stays on the surface ; a DSMB as a blob that is inflated underwater prior to the the ascent. (the DSMB that is inflated at the start of the dive and then used throughout the dive counts as a SMB). The two have completely different uses and, therefore in the context of this discussion can be considered differently: The diver using an SMB once at depth (and providing it is going to remain fairly constant) could clip it onto his kit and forget about it. Should there be any change in depth, be it a wreck, drop off, change in seabed level or the ascent, the diver should get hold of the reel and reel in the line appropriately. On the final ascent, as he is going to use it constantly he would probably, but not necessairly, unclip it. The diver using the DSMB is basically doing the last part of the SMB dive. As he wont have had it clipped to him for the deployment there is little to be gained from clipping it on and he will carry out the ascent under the DSMB.
:=:=But my question was, have you have actually seen the line being caught scenario?
:=:=
:=
:=No, neither have I seen a prop go through somebodies head, but
:=I dont need to see it to know that my head and a prop dont go
:=together!
But I have seen a hand and a leg in touch with a propellor so I do know what damage they can do.
:=Err as soon as you deploy a DSMB it becomes and SMB. You seem
:=to be saying that it's ok to clip on a SMB, but not a DSMB.
:=What's the diffrence?
No, See above
:=So you need an actual incident to proove that doing it is for
:=muppets!
Normally we know that doing something is for muppets because of someone else's experiences/ research. All I was asking for was whether anyone had any previous experience of SMB or DSMB line getting tangled in a boat prop etc - and whether that was direct experience as opposed to an urban myth passed down by word of mouth through the training system. i have yet to experience it, or to know anyone who has direct experience of it, or to read about it happening to someone in the BSAC incident reports. Why, therefore, should I not challenge it as an assumption? IIRC you are at a university club, and so are presumably a student (or have been one). Isn't this how research works?
:=Big rock is called a wreck. They can be very big you know.
:=The big rock can also be called a drop-off and has a similar
:=effect.
Again, if you had read my post, a you would know that I am aware of how big wrecks can be. My point remains, as I alluded to earlier, if there is any change in depth, the diver must alter the length of his line appropriately. So if he goes up over a big wreck he should reel in the line. Granted, that if he doesn't there may well be line lying on the surface, but he is not using the equipment in the way it is supposed to be used.
:=If we follow your train of thought then in fact the SMB is far
:=worse. It stays wherre it is and has no visible method of
:=telling a boat handler where the line is.
If you follow my train of thought, it doesnt matter what MB is being used, the cox will know that the divers are under the blob.
:=Only DSMB's flop over.
Not true. I have seen plenty of different SMBs which have flopped onto their side when there has been insufficient tension on the line (the best was an inflatable sheep!!).
To summarise. Has anyone any direct experience of the (D)SMB line being fouled in a boat propellor or similar and the divers being pulled to the surface, or having to let go of the reel, as a consequence?
Steve
The question of "to clip or not to clip" is one that agencies vary in their use of. PADI, for example, do not even mention SMB's in diving (except in the manual) in my experience. I find that when diving I hold my DSMB so i can tension it and release it as need be, but on long stops the reel should be clipped on as this allows the diver to lie in a horizontal position and get the benifit of that deco depth for the whole body. It has been known for a sore arm from hanging on to a DSMB for a long time to be mistaken for DCI or for the DCI risk to be increaed in that arm due to the possible strains that joint may be under. As you may known, a stess at the end of a dive CAN lead to a DCI so your total body should be as relaxed as possible to get the full benifits of DECO.....
....or that is how I see it, at least.
Couple of points - PADI instructors are supposed to modify the courses so that any special points for diving in a location are covered. That's why PADI qualifications specifical conditions the same as you were taught in. DSMB use is pretty much essential for UK diving so there is an arguement that a PADI instructor is failing in his duty if their duty if they do not teach it. However I only know a couple of instructors that do teach it.
Secondly why does not being clipped on inevitably lead to a sore arms or a non horizontal deco position? If your neutral then you should not be being pulled up and down. I frequently don't even bother hanging on to the reel on stops and just let it hang in front of me
Pete
John Duncan
03-10-2003, 20:27
Couple of points - PADI instructors are supposed to modify the courses so that any special points for diving in a location are covered. That's why PADI qualifications specifical conditions the same as you were taught in. DSMB use is pretty much essential for UK diving so there is an arguement that a PADI instructor is failing in his duty if their duty if they do not teach it. However I only know a couple of instructors that do teach it.
I was only taught the use of a DSMB on my Basic Nitox course, Otherwise it was only covered in the theory. I agree that ANY agency should teach the hazards that apply to the diving that you will be doing on qualification.
Secondly why does not being clipped on inevitably lead to a sore arms or a non horizontal deco position? If your neutral then you should not be being pulled up and down. I frequently don't even bother hanging on to the reel on stops and just let it hang in front of me
Pete
Obiously, you have better bouyancy control than some people I have dived with! (but a very good point) It does not INEVITABLY lead to a sore arm, but it has been known. That is what I was pointing out. I generally clip on, lie back, relax and close my eyes and take a glance at my timer now and again. It also stops those annoying leaks that you get around your wrist seals, by the way.
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