Apex XTX200 Tungsten

[MattV]

Hi,

I'm about to buy an APEX XTX200 with a XTX50 octo. I noticed that they have a 'Tungsten' variant, and was wondering that are the advantages of that?

My local Diving shop could not provide an clear tehnical explanation other than "it looks cool". I looked at the APEX web site, but there wasn't too much info there either. From what I read I'm inclined to believe that the "tungsten" is really an alloy that replaces the chrome finish and is designed to protect the forged brass underneath. Is this correct?

So, is it really worth £40 more for the tungsten variant? Also, does anyone have any thoughts on the XTX200? I would like to use it for 30-40m nonstop for next year until I get my techie deco/trimix course, and then want to use it deeper. I know it would be pricey to add another XTX200 (rather than buy now 2 Tek3's) but I do not wish to put the cart before the ox, so I'm dead fixed on the 200.

One of my very good friends, who's a BSAC instructor with over 25 yeards of diving under his belt, told me that if he were to start over now, he'd go all APEX. I agree, I have tried them, they're clearly the best, but I'm not sure about this latest tungsten toy.

PS: Ah, by the way, I did a few dives on Atomic's latest flagship, the T2X/Ti2 Octo. Although is good, and the swivel hose is very comfy, (IMHO better for warm water), I was totally swayed by APEX (tried both XTX100 and 200). Now that my old 2nd hand 40 has been married away, I really need to replace it (hate rental stuff).

[Ron MacRae]

I suspect it's a marketing feature. I've got TX40s I've been using for 10 years.
Tried some 50s and 100s and couldn't tell the difference.
Wouldn't waste money on anything over the basic reg.

KISS.

Ron.

[PeteM]

Hi,

I'm about to buy an APEX XTX200 with a XTX50 octo. I noticed that they have a 'Tungsten' variant, and was wondering that are the advantages of that?

My local Diving shop could not provide an clear tehnical explanation other than "it looks cool". I looked at the APEX web site, but there wasn't too much info there either. From what I read I'm inclined to believe that the "tungsten" is really an alloy that replaces the chrome finish and is designed to protect the forged brass underneath. Is this correct?

So, is it really worth £40 more for the tungsten variant? Also, does anyone have any thoughts on the XTX200? I would like to use it for 30-40m nonstop for next year until I get my techie deco/trimix course, and then want to use it deeper. I know it would be pricey to add another XTX200 (rather than buy now 2 Tek3's) but I do not wish to put the cart before the ox, so I'm dead fixed on the 200.

One of my very good friends, who's a BSAC instructor with over 25 yeards of diving under his belt, told me that if he were to start over now, he'd go all APEX. I agree, I have tried them, they're clearly the best, but I'm not sure about this latest tungsten toy.

PS: Ah, by the way, I did a few dives on Atomic's latest flagship, the T2X/Ti2 Octo. Although is good, and the swivel hose is very comfy, (IMHO better for warm water), I was totally swayed by APEX (tried both XTX100 and 200). Now that my old 2nd hand 40 has been married away, I really need to replace it (hate rental stuff).

Buy an XTX 40 with an XTX 40 octopus, it will do everything the 200 will do, do it as well and save you lots of money.

Everything above the 40 in the Apeks range (Note correct spelling) is designed to separate you from your money

[ChristianG]

Everything above the 40 in the Apeks range (Note correct spelling) is designed to separate you from your money
Quite frankly that could be said about a number of manufacturers, of whatever persuasion of gear. :D

Can I (tm) "bafflement by numbers"? Damn, thought not.

[MattV]

Actually I think there are a few important differences between XTX40 and later models. For example the 50 is simply a 40 with an adjustor - that's very useful and I have some friends who had their 40s converted to a 50 for that reason.

The only downside I have found with them is they have a bit of a habit of developing a slight problem with the second stage valve seat. It can tend to (slowly) free flow a bit. Hence the value of the adjustor to just wind it back little if it does. Nonetheless a top class reg for the price. But later models have corrected some of the minor deficiencies of the 40s. So I wouldn't buy a 40, but I had considered a 50. Several people who dive regularly, and have done so for many years, have reccomended 50s and later models, and with all do respect I incline to believe them (especially since I had my own 40). Besides, investing in good quality regs is worth the money from my perspective. Is like my life depends on them :)

Some Scubbys (please note again my own spelling of the brands) are also pretty bullet proof (regardless of some of the opinions on this forum) - especially 20 and 25s. Obviously more expensive than Apex (:p ) and much more expensive to service. But I saw them perform flawlessly on a twin set in Scapa in Feb. However, too pricey in the long run.

My sole concern was the 'tungsten' :confused: bit of the XTX200 that I find purely decorative - hence, I was wondering if I'm wrong. As for wasting your money on >50, please consult the other brands, especially a particular "A"merican one and marvel... :eek:

[iain2070]

Glad I've read this, now can I ask a question? I'm new to UK diving normally I would do warm water but thought I better get some UK diving done.Now my question is I've been looking at Apex XTX200 with XTX50 octo for my reg, but my local dealer is saying that a Scubapro MK17 with S555 is just as good for cold water is this true?. As I got it in my head that Scubapro is warm water and I know that UK & Canadian Military use Apex so Its got to work in cold and can I use Apex in warm water?

So much kit on the market so little time to dive.:eek:

Thanks for yr reply

[Mike Halligan]

Glad I've read this, now can I ask a question? I'm new to UK diving normally I would do warm water but thought I better get some UK diving done.Now my question is I've been looking at Apex XTX200 with XTX50 octo for my reg, but my local dealer is saying that a Scubapro MK17 with S555 is just as good for cold water is this true?. As I got it in my head that Scubapro is warm water and I know that UK & Canadian Military use Apex so Its got to work in cold and can I use Apex in warm water?

So much kit on the market so little time to dive.:eek:

Thanks for yr reply

Put simply, what works in cold water, works in warm. The reverse is NOT always TRUE.

I've used Sherwood, Oceanic, Scubapro, Apeks and Mares in cold and warm (vast majority cold). I currently use Apeks for cold water, Mares for warm and Sherwood 1st / Oceanic 2nd on a pony wherever. So far, this has worked for me.

The Scubapro didn't work. Its servicing was expensive and didn't improve it at all.

[MattV]

Hi,

I've never had a scubapro of my own, but did a couple of dives on Mk17 in 20C water (so warm water really). I found that they breathe better at depth (20+m) than shallows (5-15). Maybe was an ackward one.

Anyway, one of my very experienced friends has had Scubbys for 10 years now and very happy with them, but he also sais that service is a killer and if he were to start over again he'd go Apeks.

[MattS]

I've never had a scubapro of my own, but did a couple of dives on Mk17 in 20C water (so warm water really). I found that they breathe better at depth (20+m) than shallows (5-15). Maybe was an ackward one.The fundamental difference in regulator designs is between Piston valve 1st stages, like the Mk25 and diaphragm valve 1at stages, like the MK17 and Apeks'.

Inside a diaphragm valve, ambient pressure is transferred by the water acting on the diaphragm rather than the valve workings. So they are quite suited to use in cold or contaminated water.

Inside a piston valve, ambient is transferred by water acting directly on the valve workings. This makes them more prone to icing (free flow) in cold water, unless the valve materials are designed or proofed for cold water use.

Piston valves are usually cheaper than diaphragm valves. Arguably piston valves are slightly more robust than diaphragm valves. Subjectively, pistons are often regarded as having a slightly agricultural feel compared to a diaphragm valve of similar build quality.

There is little to separate the Apeks diaphragms, from the Scuba Pro diaphragms.

I would echo the sentiment that buying Apeks models above and beyond the the XTX50 will see you paying for relatively useless bling. The valve cracking adjuster on the 50 range can be useful, particularly in strong currents, where water pressure on the purge can cause the valve to weep a little. I don't think such a feature is at all useful on an octopus though, as it can be beneficial to slightly detune the AAS to prevent unwanted free flows. Should you ever use your AAS in anger, the person breathing it is not going to be worried about detuning and lack of cracking knob to play with. The big drawback with Apex regs before the XTX used to be the fixed hose configuration. You can swap the direction of the hoses on the XTX which makes them suitable for twinset and AAS use. So personally, I would be recommending XTX50 with XTX40 octo, or XTX50 oct if you are considering a twinset or want uniformity. Certainly I would think the XTX50 and XTX40 are fairer price comparisons to the Mk17.

Scuba Pro also make fine regultors in my experience. I find the 2nd stages a little fragile and the controls a little [i]vague[i]. They are a little lighter than the Apeks equivalents though. Scuba Pro mouthpieces are a bit soft for my liking, always feels like the 2nd stage is blowing in the breeze.

Anyway, one of my very experienced friends has had Scubbys for 10 years now and very happy with them, but he also sais that service is a killer and if he were to start over again he'd go Apeks.Ahh. I have only been at it for 15 years :) I am still using my original TX50 regularly. The fronts a bit scuffed but other than that it performs just as well as when I bought it. Compared to my Poseidons, which I prefer, the TX50 fades a bit between services and always takes a little more effort to breathe from. The Jetstreams have servo assistance in the 2nd stage, which people tend to either love or hate.

I can't sat I ever noticed a huge difference between servicing costs of Apeks and Scuba Pro. I guess that might be because the cost of servicing the Jetstreams is eye watering.

[MattV]

I do agree that XTX200, 100 and 50 have many things in common, maybe everything. In the end we're not talking here about massive technological advances. By comparison, an electronic device (e.g. computer) designed and built 10 yeras ago would be completely rubbish for some tasks in comparison to a modern architecture. So, to be absolutely clear, I am not arguing here that XTX200 is 'space age' and the XTX50 is slightly better than breathing from a Tesco bag.

Without wishing to insult anyone, however, I asked if people have experience with the Tungsten/XTX200, not if the price difference between 50/200 is worth it. I made up my mind a long time ago about the prices, and with all due respect I have a vague idea about marketing, consumer behaviour, cognitive and affective disonances, etc. Surely all of us could use a casette walkman to listen to music, but we all have MP3 Players. Is it worth the price difference? In the end why bothering to digitise your music collection that you already have on tapes? Maybe not the perfect analogy, but I hope you're catching my drift.

I do value everyone's opinion, but I was hoping to get some opinions from XTX200 owners/users. You know, it is easier to discuss something you actually use, than something you think is just like yours but with a higher price tag. I believe these opinions are highly subjective anyway - all regulators have to pass the EN250 standards (or whatever they're named).

[Woz]

I have a 100 which is identical in every way apart from the replaceable HP seat in the first stage.

My TX40 breathes better.

It's the way you tune them. The internals are identical. Not just vaguely similar but identical in terms of the bits that matter. As if they have one CNC program and just stick either bar for the 40/50 1st stages or brass stampings for the 100/200 first stages.

It's a brilliant bit of marketing but can backfire a little as canny people know that essentially they are the same reg just blinged up a bit.

[Mike Halligan]

I do agree that XTX200, 100 and 50 have many things in common, maybe everything. In the end we're not talking here about massive technological advances. By comparison, an electronic device (e.g. computer) designed and built 10 yeras ago would be completely rubbish for some tasks in comparison to a modern architecture. So, to be absolutely clear, I am not arguing here that XTX200 is 'space age' and the XTX50 is slightly better than breathing from a Tesco bag.

Without wishing to insult anyone, however, I asked if people have experience with the Tungsten/XTX200, not if the price difference between 50/200 is worth it. I made up my mind a long time ago about the prices, and with all due respect I have a vague idea about marketing, consumer behaviour, cognitive and affective disonances, etc. Surely all of us could use a casette walkman to listen to music, but we all have MP3 Players. Is it worth the price difference? In the end why bothering to digitise your music collection that you already have on tapes? Maybe not the perfect analogy, but I hope you're catching my drift.

I do value everyone's opinion, but I was hoping to get some opinions from XTX200 owners/users. You know, it is easier to discuss something you actually use, than something you think is just like yours but with a higher price tag. I believe these opinions are highly subjective anyway - all regulators have to pass the EN250 standards (or whatever they're named).
Blimey! And there was I thinking I was answering and possibly helping Iain. :o
Tsk, tsk, pipe down boy.

[Alan White]

I have been an Apeks user from the off, now have a mixture of ATX40/50 and ATX 200 Tungsten on my twinset.
Did have TX40/50 as well but bought the smaller ATX.

Indeed the internals I believe are the same, the service kit is one and the same, so the gubbins must be the same for them to fit. (very technical that sounds huh!!).

As to performance, exactly the same, lets you fiddle with settings while underwater a bit with the 50 upwards, but I must say makes very little diferance.

As to Tungsten finish, looks nice and wears the same as the chrome in my eyes, so suggest unless the Tungsten finish is to your taste, same your money and get a chrome set up.

Hope that helps.

[MattV]

Blimey! And there was I thinking I was answering and possibly helping Iain. :o

Never claimed otherwise. My fault for putting this under 'Just started diving'. I've actually had an ATX40, so I got a bit irritated when people just say 'stick to 40/50, the rest is a waste of money'.

So, as I stated earlier, it was not my intention to offend anyone. Just wanted to know what the hell Tungsten is. Many thanks Alan White, that was exactly what I was looking for.

[Andy Mason]

Hi Matt,

I have the XTX200 Tungsten's on my twins and they're great.

My girlfriend has the 'bling' chrome version of the XTX 200s on her twins.

Both are brilliant and there is no difference other than mine are gun metal gray with a little brass plate in the front.

Andy

[MattV]

Hi Matt,

I have the XTX200 Tungsten's on my twins and they're great.

My girlfriend has the 'bling' chrome version of the XTX 200s on her twins.

Both are brilliant and there is no difference other than mine are gun metal gray with a little brass plate in the front.

Andy


Thanks a lot mate! Been looking into technical details, other forums, etc., until got cross-eyed :confused: That's what I thought, but just needed an opinion from someone who has both :D Thanks a lot!

PS: Still haven't decided whether to go for the Tungsten or just the 'bling' version. I've got an offer for £280 for either of them (new) so I guess I'll go with the looks :o

Best,
Mat

[bootneck]

This might be something to look at, I remember reading somewhere advice about not using the tungsten ones if they are going to come into contact with higher 02 mixes, for the life of me I cannot remember where I read it, but it was on one of the forums. It maybe something to looking to.

[MattV]

This might be something to look at, I remember reading somewhere advice about not using the tungsten ones if they are going to come into contact with higher 02 mixes, for the life of me I cannot remember where I read it, but it was on one of the forums. It maybe something to looking to.

Thanks mate, but the Tungsten was not 'on offer' anymore, so problem solved :p . I wouldn't spend £400 for an Apeks. I agree with the advice from the forum and would have gone for the XTX50. But I had the chance to get a 'promo' one :rolleyes: . They wouldn't give me the Tungsten for the same price, so it's a no-go. Both of them are compatible with the "recreational" ENAx (up to 40%) out of the box, just like any other reg these days. Not sure if the Tungsten can be cleaned for O2 >40%, the website is unclear. I still don't know whether the Tungsten coating is just on the outside and meant for increased corosion protection or not. Doesn't matter now, at the full price is a no-go. I feel a bit dirty saying that though, my buddy dives with a brand new T2X (£900).

[Woz]

This might be something to look at, I remember reading somewhere advice about not using the tungsten ones if they are going to come into contact with higher 02 mixes, for the life of me I cannot remember where I read it, but it was on one of the forums. It maybe something to looking to.That would be titanium (light metal) not tungsten (hard coating).

[bootneck]

ha, right,thanks woz, I will now store that away so I can remember next time, I knew someone would know

[bakerstreet]

That would be titanium (light metal) not tungsten (hard coating).

I have an ATX200 and XTX200 for the left had tank. I love the XTX range purely because you can switch them to left or right hand rig.

The finish on the ATX is a satin style finish and is very poor compared to the chromed finish of the XTX. I'd hope the tungsten is an improvement as in general I found y Mk20 to have a better more durable finish compared to both Apeks first stages.

Hose routing is also a bit more flexible (Angled ports) on the 200 compared to the 40/50 first stage.