View Full Version : Sidemount within BSAC
Hi all,
You may have noticed that some of the dive gear manufacturers are starting to produce harness / wings for side mounting (Dive Rite, Oceanic/Hollis, OMS). They've done this, I think, as there seems to be a fashion growing for using this kind of set-up outside of cave-diving. Being an inquisitive fellow, I'm thinking about learning more by taking a course (with another agency) on diving like this. This raises a question for me.
*If* I decide I like this style, and want to switch to it for all my dives, what position does that put me in for Club dives? Will I need to move my cylinders from my side to my back if and when I do BSAC courses in the future?
Just for context, I'm a Sport Diver, with Adv. Nitrox. Currently I'm doing Dive Leader, and I expect I'll do Sport Mixed Gas at some point in the future. I'm not going cave-diving, but more see this as a style that might have some advantages for wrecks and RIB dives.
Any insight?
Paul
Andy Moll
22-09-2010, 16:53
Hi all,
You may have noticed that some of the dive gear manufacturers are starting to produce harness / wings for side mounting (Dive Rite, Oceanic/Hollis, OMS). They've done this, I think, as there seems to be a fashion growing for using this kind of set-up outside of cave-diving. Being an inquisitive fellow, I'm thinking about learning more by taking a course (with another agency) on diving like this. This raises a question for me.
*If* I decide I like this style, and want to switch to it for all my dives, what position does that put me in for Club dives? Will I need to move my cylinders from my side to my back if and when I do BSAC courses in the future?
Just for context, I'm a Sport Diver, with Adv. Nitrox. Currently I'm doing Dive Leader, and I expect I'll do Sport Mixed Gas at some point in the future. I'm not going cave-diving, but more see this as a style that might have some advantages for wrecks and RIB dives.
Any insight?
Paul
No problems that I am aware of lots of us dive with them already, though the majority have something else of their backs as well, be it CCR or twinset.
One of our club members is looking to move to side slungs as it may take the strain off her back and shoulder (limited mobility) and speed kitting up in a rib
Rich Walker
22-09-2010, 17:36
To which cylinder would you attach the octopus?
Rich
Been diving like this for a while now (was taught by Mr Far on his Cave course). Useful for tight spaces, and if you need to crawl to the dive site. The only difference I can see between this and the standard side mounts is if you use bungee on the top mount to allow for movement.
Have fun.
Gary(A)
*If* I decide I like this style, and want to switch to it for all my dives, what position does that put me in for Club dives? Will I need to move my cylinders from my side to my back if and when I do BSAC courses in the future?
Any insight?
Paul
Hi Paul,
When you say side-mount what gas/use are you looking at?
If a standard pony for AS use then there shouldn’t be an issue providing the reg is in the frontal area not hidden under your kit. This is my configuration.
If for other gas mixes, then that’s where there likely to be anyway.
Regards
Edward
When you say side-mount what gas/use are you looking at?
As in my only two cylinders are by my side, both containing whatever single gas I've decided to use for that dive. Nothing on my back. Think independent twins, but not on my back. Gas might be anything that I'd normally put in twins.
If a standard pony for AS use then there shouldn’t be an issue providing the reg is in the frontal area not hidden under your kit. This is my configuration.
I think it's either primary donate, or the reg for the currently unused cylinder which will be near the neck of the cylinder (i.e. left or right of my chest) with a long hose bungeed against the cylinder itself. Talking to the instructor it sounded like they used a 1.5m on one side and a 2m on the other. (No pony though :confused: )
Apparently multiple gases can be done too, but the mechanics of that are part of the course, so I'm not familiar how you rig it right now.
The only difference I can see between this and the standard side mounts is if you use bungee on the top mount to allow for movement.
Yep, that's the one. Bungees to keep the necks in, clips on the bottom. I think the other difference is the height at which the cylinder is. Rather than shoulder d-ring to waist, its arm pit to mid thigh so the cylinder is at less in-front of you, more to the side.
What do you use for buoyancy on it? Drysuit or have you gone with a DIY water bag style?
I am also contemplating sidemounts (and have been for a few months). Also whether i could use a redwing for buoyancy with it, or something more low tech like the dromedary bags that seem to be quite popular.
What do you use for buoyancy on it? Drysuit or have you gone with a DIY water bag style?
The instructor I'm talking to seems to have settled on the Hollis rig, so it's a normal wing.
I personally wouldn't be comfortable with just a flood-able drysuit, or a makeshift solution in open-water. It's not like you're going to climb out.
neil_richardson
23-09-2010, 04:44
no probs with sidemounts in this club down under!?!
i dive a nomad myself :-)
Ben Panter
23-09-2010, 08:31
Hi all,
You may have noticed that some of the dive gear manufacturers are starting to produce harness / wings for side mounting (Dive Rite, Oceanic/Hollis, OMS). They've done this, I think, as there seems to be a fashion growing for using this kind of set-up outside of cave-diving. Being an inquisitive fellow, I'm thinking about learning more by taking a course (with another agency) on diving like this. This raises a question for me.
*If* I decide I like this style, and want to switch to it for all my dives, what position does that put me in for Club dives? Will I need to move my cylinders from my side to my back if and when I do BSAC courses in the future?
Just for context, I'm a Sport Diver, with Adv. Nitrox. Currently I'm doing Dive Leader, and I expect I'll do Sport Mixed Gas at some point in the future. I'm not going cave-diving, but more see this as a style that might have some advantages for wrecks and RIB dives.
Any insight?
Paul
Hi Paul,
The best way to get an answer on this would be to put a query into HQ - probably Jim Watson.
Don't take this as a statement of policy, but I would suspect that if you've been trained in their use there will not be a problem with you diving with them in a club environment, given that your buddy understands how to get gas from you if required and can both lift you to the surface and ditch your kit when you get there.
In terms of doing further courses in that configuration (ie without any back mounted cylinders), I'm not sure. It's quite a big ask on the instructor, essentially you're asking them to make a decision on the day as to whether it's consistent with the course structure or safety requirements. If and when you choose to take further courses in that configuration, I suggest you discuss it both with HQ and your instructor well ahead of time to find out whether it's possible.
Enjoy the course!
Ben
neil_richardson
23-09-2010, 08:46
you can always come diving with me :-)
Been diving side's for a few years now,, learnt from talking to people rather than doing a course...
Side's are no more than independents, but in a sling tank configuration!!! and i dive with them regularly in open water!!!
Not much more to it than that really!! however getting the trim and "your" setup takes ages,, as the setup is incredibly personal... Hence, cannot understand the point of a course!?!? did you do a course to learn to dive with independents?? or did you go diving with someone who knew how to dive iwth them1?!?
Hence, depending upon the course, id have no qualms teaching you in side mounts,, providing i was also wearing them :-)
N
To which cylinder would you attach the octopus?
Neither, you would dive it like any other independent twinset
Neil,
No, I didn't do a course for independents, but two things. First is that config is pretty well known and you can get as many opinions on it as people you ask. Side mount, not so much... yet... maybe. Second
In my head, the whole point of the course is to get a head start on the trim and personal set-up from someone who's experienced with that kind of diving. I don't know anyone personally, so I'll pay someone. I'm not ticket hunting, just knowledge hunting. Also a way of giving it a try without having to buy new kit, split my twins, and then decide it's not for me.
...and thanks for the offer. If I'm ever down there I may take you up on it ;-)
Ben,
You've basically outlined what my gut feeling is. It would be a no-no to turn up on the day with them, but similarly I wouldn't want to do a course in back mount twins if I hadn't been diving them regularly.
I expect it comes down to good communication before hand so nobody is put in a situation they're not comfortable with. I just don't want to start down a path that becomes a dead end within BSAC.
neil_richardson
23-09-2010, 12:49
No dramas mate,,,,
look, sidemount "commercial" setups are still very very much in their infancy...
Most sidemounters in the uk sump dive, and the sump dive setups are not really great for the open water...
Personally, i learnt a LOT from watching the vids on the Diverite website, and you tube.
What i learned is that this form of setup is INCREDIBLY personal. Much more then independents or a single setup :-)
i learnt that ali's are floaty, so add a weight to the back of them, or make them really tight to you.
I learnt that i preferred the inflator being reversed and my inflator runs backwards to the kidney, and i have a shoulder dump valve with the string runnign through an old straw...
i learnt that trim is incredibly important, and that you shouldnt be afraid to add a weight to between your shoulder blades
i learnt that the cylinder really need to be tight under your arm pits
i learnt that you MUST be able to unclip and reclip your cylinders at the rear, so i now connect my cylinder to my butt plate with 2x bolt snaps tied together. This way i can shorten the connection if need be, i can unclip from the rear or from the cylinder, i can fold the clip in half and wrap through a d in order to clip back onto the cylinder, and most importantly, the bolt snaps rotate and flex, which a double ender does not do.
I also learnt that your first few dives in the syetem you will hate, and then it will click and you will love.......
Ohh and finnally i also found i prefer the spgs poiinting backwards and its best to have opposed handed valves. However, many people prefer the SPG's pointing upwards, so.....
in summary, dont take what people say / teach as read,,, go out and play with the setup yourself, and then just go dive with it...
Note however the purpose of sidemounts is to get closer to the floor, so be very wary of dangly bits or things which protrude :-) and also,, from experience, you need to be able to get the cylinders unconnected from you, in water.... so, MAKE IT EASY FOR YOURSELF, and likewise, when you roll off the boat, make sure the cylinders are nicely attached to yourself, as some off the shelf setups are designed for the cylinder to just hang on a bungee,, which when rolling off a boat, tend to pop out, and makes for in water -resetup before the dive can happen :-)
N
Thanks, that's all good, experience based, info. I appreciate it.
Rich Walker
23-09-2010, 13:00
Neither, you would dive it like any other independent twinset
Ahh, OK. I see. So if you had to give somebody some air, then you'd brief them to take the one that wasn't in your mouth, and stored in the triangle of access thing?
Rich
Ahh, OK. I see. So if you had to give somebody some air, then you'd brief them to take the one that wasn't in your mouth, and stored in the triangle of access thing?
Rich
Well you could.
Or you could brief them to take the one in your mouth and leave you to sort yourself out on the basis that you know and understand your rig, but if you did that your buddy would have to burn you as a hieratic
ChristianG
23-09-2010, 15:31
Well you could.
Or you could brief them to take the one in your mouth and leave you to sort yourself out on the basis that you know and understand your rig, but if you did that your buddy would have to burn you as a hieratic
Chuckle. :)
Incidentally, and without in the least wanting to cast "naspersions" on anything you say, it's "heretic". :D
ChristianG
23-09-2010, 15:33
it's "heretic".
Resident pedant taking, obviously.
it's "heretic". :D
Typical dyslexic problem, can't spell it so rely on spell checker.
Eye should no buy now that their not reliable.
Mike Halligan
23-09-2010, 18:26
Chuckle. :)
Incidentally, and without in the least wanting to cast "naspersions" on anything you say, it's "heretic". :D
I likes "hieratic". It scans. It means loads. It is a neat conjunction of hierarchy and heretic.
The Heck with this, let's have a good old-fashioned schism and be over it! :D
I likes "hieratic". It means loads.
It is an ancient Egyptian writing system ;)
Tristan Green
24-09-2010, 00:04
Resident pedant taking, obviously.
Did you mean 'talking'?
You have to be careful when pointing out the errors of others (glasshouses and all that). ;)
Cheers,
Tristan
neil_richardson
24-09-2010, 01:53
no dramas, if you have any questions, please feel free to ask :-)
ohh as for size of cylinders:
i use 2 x 11l ali's, one of my friends uses 2 x 12's, and another 2 x 10's.
The 10's are the best balanced, the 12's are weighty, and need a little trim refinement
the ali's i can use as stages as well, and tend to hang closer to the body ;-)
ChristianG
24-09-2010, 09:30
Did you mean 'talking'?
You have to be careful when pointing out the errors of others (glasshouses and all that). ;)
And there I was thinking I'd corrected that typo before posting. :o
Hi Paul,
The best way to get an answer on this would be to put a query into HQ - probably Jim Watson.
Ben
Oh dear we have no "popcorn" smile ;)
Prepare to wait around 12 months for a negative response then, that is how long it took for the hogarthian questions :D
I also went to a presentation recently about sidemounts, the presentation could have been better, no kit demos etc.
Also signed up for a sidemount trydive with the CDG at the end of November at Andy Hayhurst's Tek North weekend.
In small words and short sentences, can some one explain to me why non cave divers would want to put cylinder on the side rather than your back?
If you need more cylinders for de co or what ever, where do you put them??
I am just can't see the benefit, but am happy to be told!
In small words and short sentences, can some one explain to me why non cave divers would want to put cylinder on the side rather than your back?
If you need more cylinders for de co or what ever, where do you put them??
I am just can't see the benefit, but am happy to be told!
A RIB.
Was that short enough ;)
A RIB.
Was that short enough ;)
Yep, definatley short!
In small words and short sentences, can some one explain to me why non cave divers would want to put cylinder on the side rather than your back?
If you need more cylinders for de co or what ever, where do you put them??
I am just can't see the benefit, but am happy to be told!
1. Better water profile, no massive wings, minimalistic approach.
2. The ability to get inside wrecks through holes youd never get through on backmount without maybe removing your rig and pushing it through in front of you.
Their are probably more, but i just cant think of them at the minute.
I dont think any of the people here are talking about doing dives with them that would need deco bottles, more just the relaxing standard SD sort of dive profiles.
Nigel Hewitt
26-09-2010, 19:22
In small words and short sentences, can some one explain to me why non cave divers would want to put cylinder on the side rather than your back?
It makes you a lot more manageable in a tight space. Everything is within reach so you can poke it through a hole and then follow it. Also it puts the life support bits, the regs, within sight and somewhere you can protect them with a hand as you manoeuvre.
OK out in wide open water you never need to consider these things but that's not where the interesting things are.
neil_richardson
27-09-2010, 03:29
its soo soo soo far more comfortable in the water :-)
i liken it to diving an arm chair :D :D :D
on drift dives i sit upright, use my side's as counter balancing agents, and cross me legs, and just watch the world go by..
in water, i dont get any of that "bang of head" on pillar valves
Getting out the water, i just disconnect and hand up my cylinders rather then have to climb up with them
on holiday, i get allowed to do whatever i want rather then just follow a group.... :-)
is that enough???
Fashion.
Janos
That was my first thought!
It makes you a lot more manageable in a tight space. Everything is within reach so you can poke it through a hole and then follow it. Also it puts the life support bits, the regs, within sight and somewhere you can protect them with a hand as you manoeuvre.
OK out in wide open water you never need to consider these things but that's not where the interesting things are.
Umm Ok I can grasp the concept and advantages of that
ChristianG
27-09-2010, 09:56
on holiday, i get allowed to do whatever i want rather then just follow a group.... :-)
That, by itself, has all the merit that is required. :D
Ever tried walking any distance in sidemounts? Much easier with them on your back. Also, the COG is, for me, all wrong- I need the mass higher up my back than I can get with sidemounts. I can't carry enough gas purely sidemounted- I need something on my back as, well, backgas. And finally, the "have you got it? Yes. Ah no no no no no no Bugger :(" as you watch a cylinder, mounting kit and reg disappear into 80m when you hand it up.
Sidemounts are brilliant for squirrelling. Otherwise, I would stick to backmount. However personally I can't see a problem diving it within the club system, and Ben's post above puts it rather tidily.
ChristianG
27-09-2010, 13:22
Ever tried walking any distance in sidemounts? Much easier with them on your back. Also, the COG is, for me, all wrong- I need the mass higher up my back than I can get with sidemounts. I can't carry enough gas purely sidemounted- I need something on my back as, well, backgas. And finally, the "have you got it? Yes. Ah no no no no no no Bugger :(" as you watch a cylinder, mounting kit and reg disappear into 80m when you hand it up.
Sidemounts are brilliant for squirrelling. Otherwise, I would stick to backmount. However personally I can't see a problem diving it within the club system, and Ben's post above puts it rather tidily.
I acknowledge that sidemounts were evolved as a direct result of cave diving. As an aside it's interesting, actually, how so many things evolved from that which now are pretty well "mainstream" and, no, I won't be tempted.
One can always make particular mention of a particular activity and denigrate it's particular efficiency or otherwise. You mention the fact that you find it hard to get proper CoG when sidemounted, as another aside I find your (that's a general "you") emphasis on CoG somewhat over-the-top. Then again what would I know? As for your comments about transporting them, those with bad backs usually have obliging buddies. Not everyone is perfectly fit, including myself.
OK, to get back to CoG, surely those that have "bad backs", and there seem to be lots of them around, would find sidemount much easier than back gas? As for "losing it" when handing it up to the boat, in the twenty odd years that I've dived off the Club's succeeding (three of them actually) dive boats in that period I can tick off on the fingers of one hand the number of times that something got "lost overboard". We, BTW, always prefer to have tanks etc handed to us before climbing up our very well designed ladder given that we prefer to not exacerbate the "bad backs" syndrome. Some of us even prefer to get rid of our fins before mounting the ladder. The people on board are happy to oblige with that, provided you're already directly at the ladder.
Before I finish, yes, it's a hard boat (purpose designed 7.3 m alloy).
I acknowledge that sidemounts were evolved as a direct result of cave diving. As an aside it's interesting, actually, how so many things evolved from that.
One can always make particular mention of a particular activity and denigrate it's particular efficiency or otherwise. You mention the fact that you find it hard to get proper CoG when sidemounted, as another aside I find your (that's a general "you") emphasis on CoG somewhat over-the-top. Then again what would I know?
OK, to get back to CoG, surely those that have "bad backs", and there seem to be lots of them around, would find sidemount much easier than back gas? As for "losing it" when handing it up to the boat, in the twenty odd years that I've dived off the Club's succeeding (three of them actually) dive boats in that period I can tick off on the fingers of one hand the number of times that something got "lost overboard". We, BTW, always prefer to have tanks etc handed to us before climbing up our very well designed ladder given that we prefer to not exacerbate the "bad backs" syndrome. Some of us even prefer to get rid of our fins before mounting the ladder. The people on board are happy to oblige with that, provided you're already directly at the ladder.
Before I finish, yes, it's a hard boat (purpose designed 7.3 m alloy).
I have tried both, and I prefer backmounts but can see how sidemounts are great for squirrelling. How you choose to dive I care little if nothing about. You can stick one up your whotsit if you would prefer to dive that way :)
ChristianG
27-09-2010, 14:02
I have tried both, and I prefer backmounts but can see how sidemounts are great for squirrelling. How you choose to dive I care little if nothing about. You can stick one up your whotsit if you would prefer to dive that way :)
Ooops, have I struck a chord?
Did I say that I dive sidemount? Like you, I've tried it but for what I do today it's not the ideal system or, at least, doesn't appear to be. I don't have a bad back and I don't do penetration to that extent (any more - too ancient).
I gave you an alternative and you decided to create an ad hominem attack.
Tsk, Tsk.
Ooops, have I struck a chord?
Did I say that I dive sidemount? Like you, I've tried it but for what I do today it's not the ideal system or, at least, doesn't appear to be. I don't have a bad back and I don't do penetration to that extent (any more - too ancient).
I gave you an alternative and you decided to create an ad hominem attack.
Tsk, Tsk.Do you work nights or something? Isn't it the middle of the night over there?
ChristianG
27-09-2010, 14:28
Do you work nights or something? Isn't it the middle of the night over there?
Trying to get off the subject?
If you must know, I don't work - I'm retired. I therefore go to bed whenever-the-hell I feel like it and tomorrow I don't have a commitment until 1100 (my time).
There now, does that make you feel better?
This is getting seriously puerile, no more from me unless significantly provoked.
Tristan Green
28-09-2010, 00:16
Now, now boys. Stop baiting one another and go diving for goodness sake.
Cheers,
Tristan
BSAC Forum Admin.
Ever tried walking any distance in sidemounts? Much easier with them on your back.
Why would you do that, surely it would be much easier to carry them by hand to the water, clip them on in the water and off you go - but what do I know I haven't even had a go yet.
But I can certainly see the advantages for people with mobility issues, bad back, knackered knees etc :)
Why would you do that, surely it would be much easier to carry them by hand to the water, clip them on in the water and off you go - but what do I know I haven't even had a go yet.
But I can certainly see the advantages for people with mobility issues, bad back, knackered knees etc :)Carry them by hand? Say you had to walk from the top car park at Stoney to the quay. You can either chuck your set on your back and walk to the water, or hand carry a pair of 12s all the way, stopping every now and then to get some blood back into your fingers and give your arms a rest. I know which I would prefer to do. You could clip them on so they're nice and snug and they carry ok as long as they're not massive cylinders but it's still easier on your back.
Actually a single 232 bar 10 on your back in a BCD is the best for long-distance walks.
Nigel Hewitt
29-09-2010, 12:18
Carry them by hand? Say you had to walk from the top car park at Stoney to the quay.
ROTFL
We were diving at Rivas on Lake Geneva and I picked to a pair of Carbon Dive 300bar 12s and carried them back up a flight of stairs and right past the railway station to get to the car park and realised I had fallen in love.
OK carbon wound cylinders might be very expensive but we old men need our mad flings.
Then you had to nip back for your 60lb weightbelt :D
ChristianG
29-09-2010, 12:44
OK carbon wound cylinders might be very expensive but we old men need our mad flings.
What's more you're a younger old man than I am. :D
The fact of the matter remains that, like it or not, you have to carry your weight somehow if you're using thermal insulation. In the UK you're definitely going to be using thermal insulation, as you would in Lake Geneva.
So what's the difference between lugging a couple of steel tanks or a pair of carbons plus a weight belt (of whatever type) given that you need the weight one way or the other?
Edit/: As Woz said immediately before my post.
neil_richardson
29-09-2010, 13:34
Woz,
IF carrying my cylinders for sidemounting over a distance i use a TROLLEY :-)
if i forget my trolley, i clip the cylinders to my shoulder d-rings. In the process they hang down directly in line with my body. Makes carrying them a LOT easier then carrying twin's on my back where you're always bent slightly over ;-)
The alternate option is to just carry them on my shoulders.. pretty easy to do as well... again, much easier than carrying my twin 12's.....
N
Woz,
IF carrying my cylinders for sidemounting over a distance i use a TROLLEY :-)
if i forget my trolley, i clip the cylinders to my shoulder d-rings. In the process they hang down directly in line with my body. Makes carrying them a LOT easier then carrying twin's on my back where you're always bent slightly over ;-)
The alternate option is to just carry them on my shoulders.. pretty easy to do as well... again, much easier than carrying my twin 12's.....
NSo you trolley your kit form the top car park, then walk all the way back to put the trolley in your boot, then come back to the water to find someone's pinched your cylinders. That has happened.
OK so you have a cylinder on each shoulder. Do you have a third hand to carry your fins, mask, gloves and hood?
ChristianG
29-09-2010, 15:34
So you trolley your kit form the top car park, then walk all the way back to put the trolley in your boot, then come back to the water to find someone's pinched your cylinders. That has happened.
OK so you have a cylinder on each shoulder. Do you have a third hand to carry your fins, mask, gloves and hood?
Now I don't know the venue but that's slightly unreasonable in what I would call normal circumstances.
In normal circumstances (I would have thought) divers tend to dive together, even if there are only two of them, meaning that one can "stand guard", as it were, if that's desirable.
It's a silly argument anyway, any way you look at it.
neil_richardson
30-09-2010, 00:07
Woz,
Ive never dived the "quarries" in the Uk.... so dont know how bad the tea leafes are back there now???
over here, you take the trolley to where you are diving, then padlock it with a chain lock, and voila...
Or if you're diving the caves and sinkholes, then you can leave pretty much everything on display and not worry about security, as you know it wont get stolen (these sites are remote with very tightly controlled access, so...)
or if carrying your cylinders on your shoulders, you're generally not diving alone!! plus, again, not knowing how "anti social" back there things have become, but we tend to dive as groups and all help each other out down here!!!! so never an issue....
Carry them by hand? Say you had to walk from the top car park at Stoney to the quay.
I wouldn't be walking from the top car park, if I can't park in the bottom carpark then I wouldn't be going, I was thinking more of Vobster or Capernwray, maybe people there are a little more trustworthy.
Richard Mason
18-11-2010, 11:29
no probs with sidemounts in this club down under!?!
i dive a nomad myself :-)
And I've just bought one. :D
Richard Mason
18-11-2010, 11:40
Carry them by hand? Say you had to walk from the top car park at Stoney to the quay.
The furthest I'd walk is 1 pace to the gunnel before I jump in, or on my remotest shore dive, maybe 40m from where I park the car buit on the majority of those I'd be single backmount anyway, although we do have one shoredive here in Tas that can go 60m deep and it's literally 10m to the water from the car - now that's a site that's perfect for me to SM with my rooted back and bu99ered knee.
I'm actually doing a SM course with a Tas-based instructor - it's about the only non basic course I can do in Aus that doesn't involve a trip to the mainland. I think the twin SM will be great for some of the tighter spots in this system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXwoLeSuzvo).
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