BSAC Technical expedition [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

Matt Duke

14-10-2005, 10:38

BSAC Tech. Group are thinking of running some BSAC Technical expeditions under the BSAC expeds scheme. The expeds would be open to any BSAC member who is full trimix certified either CCR or OC.

Initialy we are looking at an exped to Malta in the spring (April/May 2006) targeting wrecks in the 50m - 80m range. The exped would be based on a large liveaboard. If this was successful we could move on to set up further expeds.

We are trying to gauge what interest there would be before we go ahead with the project.

What do you think?

Mike Rowley

Hello,

Sounds interesting Mike. My BS-AC Trimix endorsment (TDI Full trimix) only covers me to 70m, will BS-AC increase this limit for the purposes of the exped?

Ball park, how much do you expect this to cost?

Can you diviludge any details of the marks you have in mind? Any specific exped goals? I wonder what criteria are used to get dives under this expedition scheme.

Does some finance come from actual membership fees? I'd feel pretty bad diving if the cash had come from other members. 3rd party sponsorship would be a whole different thing. I assume that giving hard cash to divers to "Organise Expeds" doesn't happen, (The membership would go crazy!) but I wasn't sure from the wording of your post. I had visions of some BS-AC sub committee sitting and dishing out club funds to divers to go run expeds! On reflection that seems highly unlikely! =)

Best Regards

Matt Duke
Bergen, Norway

Mike Rowley

14-10-2005, 12:59

Hi Matt

Thanks for responding.

I haven't got further than initial investigation stage yet, I am just exploring whether there is sufficient interest to make it worth moving forward to a planning stage.

BSAC would not subsidise this expedition, it would have to be self financed unless external sponsorship could be attracted.

Your TDI trimix certification depth limit would limit you to that depth I'm afraid. BSAC could not extend your depth certification without further training. Is your certification normoxic trimix or full? I thought the TDI full trimix was similar to IANTD which is 100m.

The liveaboard is quite expensive but can take up to 20 divers so the costs can be spread. I haven't as yet got down to properly costing it as a trip so I can't as yet give you a figure. If enough people express an interest I will get on and do the work.

I have spoken to Sarah Gauci- Carlton who lives in Malta and would help set up this exped. We have several offshore marks of wrecks in this depth range. As you may know, Malta is well dived from the shore but not so well dived offshore due to the depths involved. I intend to do some detailed research for potential undived marks if the project looks like it might fly.

All I am doing at the moment is trying to gauge potential interest to see if it is worth while progressing the project.

Cheers

Mike

Hello,

Sounds interesting Mike. My BS-AC Trimix endorsment (TDI Full trimix) only covers me to 70m, will BS-AC increase this limit for the purposes of the exped?

Ball park, how much do you expect this to cost?

Can you diviludge any details of the marks you have in mind? Any specific exped goals? I wonder what criteria are used to get dives under this expedition scheme.

Does some finance come from actual membership fees? I'd feel pretty bad diving if the cash had come from other members. 3rd party sponsorship would be a whole different thing. I assume that giving hard cash to divers to "Organise Expeds" doesn't happen, (The membership would go crazy!) but I wasn't sure from the wording of your post. I had visions of some BS-AC sub committee sitting and dishing out club funds to divers to go run expeds! On reflection that seems highly unlikely! =)

Best Regards

Matt Duke
Bergen, Norway

Matt Duke

14-10-2005, 13:20

Hi Matt

Thanks for responding.

Your TDI trimix certification depth limit would limit you to that depth I'm afraid. BSAC could not extend your depth certification without further training. Is your certification normoxic trimix or full? I thought the TDI full trimix was similar to IANTD which is 100m.

Sure, TDI qualified me to 100M, but when diving on BSAC trips, my little "BSAC endorsment" logbook sticker was only for 70M. This was issued in 1999/2000

I'm probably missing something obvious! But I thought all BSAC trips were limited to 70M, regardless of qualification, so I thought your posting meant that we could now diver deeper within the BSAC rules?

Keep us posted on the trip.

Matt

Mike Rowley

14-10-2005, 16:00

Sorry Matt, I missunderstood you. Yes the current depth limit for BSAC is 70m for branch dives. However, if we submit our plans along with risk assessments for the exped to the NDO and they are approved by the NDO and the BSAC Insurers we can gain permission to mount such an expedition. Consequently, your certification would be ok.

Cheers

Mike

Sure, TDI qualified me to 100M, but when diving on BSAC trips, my little "BSAC endorsment" logbook sticker was only for 70M. This was issued in 1999/2000

I'm probably missing something obvious! But I thought all BSAC trips were limited to 70M, regardless of qualification, so I thought your posting meant that we could now diver deeper within the BSAC rules?

Keep us posted on the trip.

Matt

Angus

15-10-2005, 18:15

Mike,

I could be interested dates dependant.

I'll keep a watch on here for details.

Angus

steve owens

17-10-2005, 12:11

Hi Mike,

Sounds great, i would certainly be interested, we meet in red sea in jan on dave thompsons trip.

steve

BSAC Tech. Group are thinking of running some BSAC Technical expeditions under the BSAC expeds scheme. The expeds would be open to any BSAC member who is full trimix certified either CCR or OC.

Initialy we are looking at an exped to Malta in the spring (April/May 2006) targeting wrecks in the 50m - 80m range. The exped would be based on a large liveaboard. If this was successful we could move on to set up further expeds.

We are trying to gauge what interest there would be before we go ahead with the project.

What do you think?

Mike Rowley

Nigel Hewitt

17-10-2005, 12:34

Initialy we are looking at an exped to Malta in the spring (April/May 2006) targeting wrecks in the 50m - 80m range. The exped would be based on a large liveaboard. If this was successful we could move on to set up further expeds.

I'm a little perplexed as to what is proposed.
Is this a warm water trimix holiday or a specific project?

Can we have a definition of 'expedition' in this context?

Mike Rowley

17-10-2005, 15:18

I'm a little perplexed as to what is proposed.
Is this a warm water trimix holiday or a specific project?

Can we have a definition of 'expedition' in this context?

Hi Nigel

The thinking behind this potential project is somewhat multi-faceted.
Firstly, it is apparent that BSAC divers who may wish to do more challenging mixed gas diving may not have the opporunity of doing so unless they are members of a branch that has a core group of technical divers or part of a group of divers who regularly organise such trips. Sometimes such groups can be difficult to penetrate for new commers. The idea is to provide a vehicle to facilitate this within BSAC.

This would be testing the water (Sorry about the corny pun)to see if there is any interest within the BSAC for it.If this project gets off the ground and is successful we can then move on to run more expeds which may have more specific targets in terms of dive sites.

A couple of the sites we are looking at are as follow;

HM Submarine Stubborn:- Scuttled in 1946 for ASDIC testing, HM Submarine Stubborn was re-discovered by divers in 1994. She lies intact with a slight list to starboard on a flat seabed of sand and marl in 56/57m, with the bows pointing North-East.

The Polynesien Wreck:- This very large wreck is believed to be the Polynesien, a French liner converted to a troop carrier sunk during WWI, identified by her unusual propeller. Known locally as ?tal-Platti? because of the large quantity of Limoges crockery on board, she lies on a mud seabed in 65m, with a list towards the port side. The shallowest part of the wreck is the starboard rail which is in 48m. The cause of sinking is unknown, but the wreck is quite intact at the bow and stern but badly broken up in the middle.

I have initially looked at Malta because of its nautical history and heritage from WW2 and the fact that Sarah and Mariao Gauci-Carlton live there and are willing to help with the organisation.

If people are not interested then fine, I can just get on and do my own diving with like minded friends. However, if it does attract sufficient interest I and others are prepared to put the work in to make it happen and what better vehicle for promoting technical diving within the BSAC?

Cheers

Mike

Nigel Hewitt

17-10-2005, 15:43

This would be testing the water (Sorry about the corny pun)to see if there is any interest within the BSAC for it.If this project gets off the ground and is successful we can then move on to run more expeds which may have more specific targets in terms of dive sites.

Thanks.
I read this from a Nautical Archaeology background and there is a huge difference in my head between a project, where I expect to be worked to death, and a holiday where I expect to be looked after. I like them both but I'd be disappointed to come for one and get the other as it's a very different mindset.

I don't reach your spec yet as I haven't done the hours to upgrade my normoxic CCR to full 'mix yet but one-day soon...

Mike Rowley

17-10-2005, 16:13

I don't reach your spec yet as I haven't done the hours to upgrade my normoxic CCR to full 'mix yet but one-day soon...

It may be that we will have to keep it within normoxic limits initially to get things off the ground and then progress from there. When we have our own courses launched we can then develop people who are interested during our expeds. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that by next spring we will have courses to pilot.

I may be too early yet to get something like this off the ground, the response to the idea from this forum has so far been somewhat less than overwhelming but it is early days for the BSAC in this area and I am always hopefull.

Cheers

Mike

David Walker

17-10-2005, 17:11

I may be too early yet to get something like this off the ground, the response to the idea from this forum has so far been somewhat less than overwhelming but it is early days for the BSAC in this area and I am always hopefull.

I expect the main problem you have is the target audience. Number of BSAC member with the necessary trimix training = small. Number of those who read BSAC forums = very small. Number of those reading with the right qualifications who have the time / money / inclination to go = well, about 2...

If it got off the ground then letting clubs know would probably get to more people... but people in that situation are unlikely to sign up until everything's finalised so doesn't really help much...

David

terryh

17-10-2005, 18:08

:=I may be too early yet to get something like this off the ground, the response to the idea from this forum has so far been somewhat less than overwhelming but it is early days for the BSAC in this area and I am always hopefull.

I expect the main problem you have is the target audience. Number of BSAC member with the necessary trimix training = small. Number of those who read BSAC forums = very small. Number of those reading with the right qualifications who have the time / money / inclination to go = well, about 2...

If it got off the ground then letting clubs know would probably get to more people... but people in that situation are unlikely to sign up until everything's finalised so doesn't really help much...

David

I was soooo tempted to say all that, but thought it might be
taken the wrong way. If you want to talk to RB divers and the like, might I suggest you go onto YD. They have a RB group
alone, approaching 150.

TerryH

Mike Rowley

17-10-2005, 18:39

:=:=I may be too early yet to get something like this off the ground, the response to the idea from this forum has so far been somewhat less than overwhelming but it is early days for the BSAC in this area and I am always hopefull.
:=
:=I expect the main problem you have is the target audience. Number of BSAC member with the necessary trimix training = small. Number of those who read BSAC forums = very small. Number of those reading with the right qualifications who have the time / money / inclination to go = well, about 2...
:=
:=If it got off the ground then letting clubs know would probably get to more people... but people in that situation are unlikely to sign up until everything's finalised so doesn't really help much...
:=
:=David

I was soooo tempted to say all that, but thought it might be
taken the wrong way. If you want to talk to RB divers and the like, might I suggest you go onto YD. They have a RB group
alone, approaching 150.

TerryH

I take your ponts David, I'm just trying to get a feel for interest.

I don't think I restricted my post to rebreathers Terry, just trimix.

Mike

terryh

17-10-2005, 18:49

I don't think I restricted my post to rebreathers Terry, just trimix.

Well there are a lot of Tx guys on there to, but I only know
the number of RB divers and used this as an indication of the
tech level.

I was actually trying to help Mike.

TerryH

Mike Rowley

17-10-2005, 19:33

I was actually trying to help Mike.

TerryH

I know Terry, I wasn't having a go and I do appreciate you responding.

I haven't widened the appeal simply because I want to specifically promote technical diving within the BSAC. I do understand that this forum has a limited scope but since a number of people have been keen to post here on technical diving matters I hoped it might give me a feel for the potential interest. If and when I progress to a detailed stage I will, of course go to the membership by a more direct and generic route.

Mike

David Walker

17-10-2005, 20:36

I take your ponts David, I'm just trying to get a feel for interest.

Ah yeah absolutely. Its just with your response being "somewhat less than overwhelming" i was offering a bit of encouragement - there may be loads of interested divers, just not ones that read the forums regularly.

David

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

17-10-2005, 22:28

I expect the main problem you have is the target audience. Number of BSAC member with the necessary trimix training = small. Number of those who read BSAC forums = very small.

A valid point David! Mike - chat to Mary (HQ), it might be an idea to put this into the BSAC electonic eTalk to see if that elicits some more responses, plus maybe a small article in the next NDC eBulletin?

Keith L

Nigel Hewitt

18-10-2005, 09:01

I do understand that this forum has a limited scope but since a number of people have been keen to post here on technical diving matters I hoped it might give me a feel for the potential interest. If and when I progress to a detailed stage I will, of course go to the membership by a more direct and generic route.

There is the added snag that planning week long trips is, for me at least, something that often happens over a year in advance. A tech trimix live-aboard is a nice prospect but the holiday allowance for next year is already filling up...

Andrew Hunt

18-10-2005, 09:05

Hi,

There are a number of discussions happening within the Diving and Technical Groups of NDC regarding Expeditions and also the consideration of some of the issues raised in these discussions.

On the issue of depth, there are actually a number of limits depending on the qualification, experience and equipment being used by the diver. The absolute max limit for the BSAC at the moment is 70m.

Remember that it used to be 50m and no-one could use rebreathers, so there is a process to move things forward. However, as we all have a duty of care to others, this takes time.

On the issue of the BSAC Expeditionary Grant Scheme, 5 grants of ?1000 were awarded to Expedition Leaders in 2005.

The Expedition Officer (me) decides who gets them with referral to the Diving Group if I can't decide.

We are reasonably upto date with technology and all have email, so decisions can be made quite quickly.

Expeditions are becoming more fashionable again and its about time; BSAC Advanced Divers and First Class Divers should be living up to their qualifications and organising Expeditions rather than just taking about it.

The BSAC Expeditionary Grant Scheme (BEGS) has certainly generated more interest in BSAC Expeditions which is a good thing. It is only available for Expeditions organised within your home territory (UK or Norway or wherever your club is. However, the idea is definately not a subsidised overseas holiday.

However, I am not a mind reader and cannot award grants to Expeditions that I do not know about.

For a grant to be awarded there are certain things Expedition Leaders must do before the 31st December.

In a nutshell, this involves putting together an Expedition Team (yes, you can select who you take and not just take anyone off the street), put together a half decent plan (see First Class diver section, max 15 sides), put together a proper risk plan, fill in a form and send the paperwork to me (see link).

If succeddul, you get 50% up front and then must tell me how the expedition went so need to write a report at the end before you get the rest.

However, there are only 5 grants of a 1000 pounds so make sure your plan is good.

Andy
BSAC Expeditions Officer

:=BSAC Tech. Group are thinking of running some BSAC Technical expeditions under the BSAC expeds scheme. The expeds would be open to any BSAC member who is full trimix certified either CCR or OC.
:=
:=Initialy we are looking at an exped to Malta in the spring (April/May 2006) targeting wrecks in the 50m - 80m range. The exped would be based on a large liveaboard. If this was successful we could move on to set up further expeds.
:=
:=We are trying to gauge what interest there would be before we go ahead with the project.
:=
:=What do you think?
:=
:=Mike Rowley

Hello,

Sounds interesting Mike. My BS-AC Trimix endorsment (TDI Full trimix) only covers me to 70m, will BS-AC increase this limit for the purposes of the exped?

Ball park, how much do you expect this to cost?

Can you diviludge any details of the marks you have in mind? Any specific exped goals? I wonder what criteria are used to get dives under this expedition scheme.

Does some finance come from actual membership fees? I'd feel pretty bad diving if the cash had come from other members. 3rd party sponsorship would be a whole different thing. I assume that giving hard cash to divers to "Organise Expeds" doesn't happen, (The membership would go crazy!) but I wasn't sure from the wording of your post. I had visions of some BS-AC sub committee sitting and dishing out club funds to divers to go run expeds! On reflection that seems highly unlikely! =)

Best Regards

Matt Duke
Bergen, Norway

matt

18-10-2005, 11:01

I am kinda interested, particularly as you have now posted a couple of targets.

Are the costs going to be equally shared or are the organisers going to be charging expenses? Some of the REDS trips seem way expensive.

How much interference can I expect? I am happy with my training and the techniques I use. It is all pretty standard IANTD/ITDA stuff really. I have absolutely no interest in being cajoled into breathing the short hose or weakening deco PPOs.

So interested, but the devil is in the detail.

One big issue will be work and how much notice you need.

Spider

18-10-2005, 12:41

:=I do understand that this forum has a limited scope but since a number of people have been keen to post here on technical diving matters I hoped it might give me a feel for the potential interest. If and when I progress to a detailed stage I will, of course go to the membership by a more direct and generic route.

There is the added snag that planning week long trips is, for me at least, something that often happens over a year in advance. A tech trimix live-aboard is a nice prospect but the holiday allowance for next year is already filling up...

I have to agree with Nigel. I would definitely be interested in participating in a BSAC trimix expedition, but I've already arranged week-long diving trips in April, June and August 2006. If you were thinking of doing any weekend trips or doing another week sometime in the future, I would be interested.

As for communicating your idea to the right people, I know that my BSAC club was asked to give details of all divers with extended range/trimix/rebreather qualifications to our regional coach. I don't know if other regions have done this as well. I think the idea was to enable some regional trimix and/or rebreather diving to be arranged. So the South East region (at least) should have a list of people you could email.

Richard Greenwood

18-10-2005, 12:55

Mike,

An excellent idea in principle. However, I wouldn't be able to get away for a week to Malta.

I do like the idea of weekend trips, possibly in the UK, with other BSAC ERD/Trimix divers.

nick kay

18-10-2005, 19:11

Hi Mike

Two thoughts...

1a. Have you communicated this to the Regional Technical Coordinators?

1b. Or, if Regions don't have one, to the Regional Coaches?

2. In agreement with some of the other posts - why not something in the 40m+ range with the trip open to ERD and Trimix?

Nigel Hewitt

18-10-2005, 20:00

2. In agreement with some of the other posts - why not something in the 40m+ range with the trip open to ERD and Trimix?

Because 40 something isn't really technical. He said he was trying to promote technical diving in BSAC. There are lots of people who do that sort of dive week by week. If we want to see the Tech divers come back into the fold we need to be looking at the 50+ or 70+ region.

I am torn between the idea that BSAC is doing a "me to" with tech diving and the feeling that we have quite a bit to contribute. Perhaps, however, it isn't really aimed at people like me who have already gone outside BSAC for our deep water qualifications but for those that follow us. Certainly my club intends that nobody should need to think they have 'outgrown' the branch and will cater for all levels up to BSAC limits.

Perhaps the limits will grow when we have BSAC's own home brew trimix courses. The current 70m limit is not far beyond my normoxic card so a further qualification in that area will be because I choose to dive outside BSAC limits.

Mike Rowley

18-10-2005, 20:05

Are the costs going to be equally shared or are the organisers going to be charging expenses? Some of the REDS trips seem way expensive.

I would envisage shared costs.

How much interference can I expect? I am happy with my training and the techniques I use. It is all pretty standard IANTD/ITDA stuff really. I have absolutely no interest in being cajoled into breathing the short hose or weakening deco PPOs.

Your kit configuration is entirely a matter for you and whoever is your buddy. The exped would be run in accordance with BSAC Technical sfe diving practices. BSAC recommends a maximum PO2 of 1.4 bar but does not specify what FO2. It is virtually impossible to police when a diver breathes what gas and at what depth, even if I had the inclination.

I don't think I have seen anything in BSAC guidlines relating to long or short hoses other than long hoses are desireable.

The only practice that is not compatible with BSAC is the DIR/GUE technique of primary donation/take. Should you choose to adopt this technique that is a matter for you and your buddy. The only thing I would expect you to accept is that other divers who might be in the water and on the same site may not welcome or be prepared for someone attempting to remove their mouthpiece from their mouth. Consequently, you are free to adopt this practice within buddy pairs or consenting divers but I would expect you to refrain from inflicting it on others were you to find yourself in need of gas. I would, of course expect you to aim for self suffinciency in any case to avoid any such scenario.

One big issue will be work and how much notice you need.

Don't know yet Matt, I need to do some detailed planning and costing now before progressing.

Cheers

Mike

nick kay

18-10-2005, 23:23

Hi Nigel
Nick: In agreement with some of the other posts - why not something in the 40m+ range with the trip open to ERD and Trimix?

Nigel: Because 40 something isn't really technical. He said he was trying to promote technical diving in BSAC. There are lots of people who do that sort of dive week by week. If we want to see the Tech divers come back into the fold we need to be looking at the 50+ or 70+ region.

Nick: OK, but I'd argure there are degress of "technical", for example:
o 40-50m = ERD
o 40-60m = Normoxic Trimix (although your "normoxic qual seems to suggest 70m)
60m+ = Tech Trimix
Therefore, just trying to suggest that "initially" it should be open to any/all of the above. OK, if the plan is 50-60m, then its some form of Trimix...

Nigel: Perhaps the limits will grow when we have BSAC's own home brew trimix courses.

Nick: Agreed

Nigel Hewitt

19-10-2005, 07:33

The only practice that is not compatible with BSAC is the DIR/GUE technique of primary donation/take. Should you choose to adopt this technique that is a matter for you and your buddy.

Are you sure? I thought we were just not supposed to teach it at lower levels. Personally I can't see anybody with the experience to go to trimix depths being phased by a reg grab. I suspect they would just go straight into rescue mode.

matt

19-10-2005, 09:30

BSAC recommends a maximum PO2 of 1.4 bar but does not specify what FO2.

Ok I don't mind being told the recommendation, I just don't want reminding of it every two minutes.

It is virtually impossible to police when a diver breathes what gas and at what depth, even if I had the inclination.

I can work with that.

The only practice that is not compatible with BSAC is the DIR/GUE technique of primary donation/take.

I have never been on a GUE/DIR course. I have been taught primary donate/take on four separate IANTD and ITDA courses from varying instructors. AFAIK TDI and DSAT also teach it. Just pointing out that it is not just GUE. From my point of view breathing the short hose would be unusual.

The only thing I would expect you to accept is that other divers who might be in the water and on the same site may not welcome or be prepared for someone attempting to remove their mouthpiece from their mouth.

I trust everyone on this trip will have been taught how to recover a dislodged mouthpiece.

Point of interest, are CCR divers taught to deal with a mothpiece being kicked out?

I would expect you to refrain from inflicting it on others were you to find yourself in need of gas.

So would I, and I don't expect to be in need of gas.

I would, of course expect you to aim for self suffinciency in any case to avoid any such scenario.

I do self sufficiency.

Don't know yet Matt, I need to do some detailed planning and costing now before progressing.

Thanks Mike. Sounds like we can probably get over the details. It will come down to time and money.

Keep me posted.

matt

19-10-2005, 10:36

Because 40 something isn't really technical.

Nick's been a bit more diplomatic but <a href="mailto:'b@lls">'b@lls</a>' Nigel. You seem to be bowing to the popular misunderstanding. Technical Diving ain't about equipment and depth, it is all about attitude and approach. The need for a technical approach comes in around 30m+ when a useful bottom time can mean significant stops and a free ascent is no longer a sensible option.

He said he was trying to promote technical diving in BSAC. There are lots of people who do that sort of dive week by week. If we want to see the Tech divers come back into the fold we need to be looking at the 50+ or 70+ region.

No, that's if we want to see Trimix divers in the fold.

The demographics seem to be changing, I used to struggle to get people on IFCs but now DL is becoming a problem. This years prospects split themselves between those pursuing BSAC (who now need technical training) and those that turned to IANTD/TDI (who would benefit from leadership and rescue training). Ignoring the arguments between the factions as to who has the best training /sigh/, it presents a difficult problem for the DO. The BSAC people are qualified to 50m but have no technical training. The others have the training but are not qualified by BSAC to exceed 35m. From my perspective I don't want either group to feel they have to go off on their own and learn the hard way.

I am torn between the idea that BSAC is doing a "me to" with tech diving and the feeling that we have quite a bit to contribute.

Perhaps we have a group keen to accommodate the technically inclined and another uncomfortable with the idea. Hence we get a BSAC flavoured compromise. What I doubt is whether a compromise will work (CCR divers said no). The technically inclined by their nature are not interested in compromising. I am really not interested in arguing with an experienced technical diver over the detail of a particular PPO, what table they choose or the pros/cons of breathing the short/long hose. As Mike indicates, they are discussions for individuals who have been trained in the risks.

Certainly my club intends that nobody should need to think they have 'outgrown' the branch and will cater for all levels up to BSAC limits.

I guess what I have been trying to do is encourage a club for divers, whatever their individual limits.

The current 70m limit is not far beyond my normoxic card so a further qualification in that area will be because I choose to dive outside BSAC limits.

Do you consider what you do as dangerous? I suspect not. BSAC should be encompassing what divers do rather than trying to tell them what to do. I believe we are getting there, slowly and Mike's trip would help towards that end. I also think Nick has a point. There are far more people interested in 30 to 50m ERD/Normoxic diving - Jack Ingle seems to fill his trips without a problem.

Personally I prefer ERD to Trimix on a cost Vs bottom time basis - but it does depend on what is on the bottom. Should Nick stage an ERD exped and Mike fail to provide a desirable enough target, Nick would get my support.

Obviously this is all very self opinionated.

Nigel Hewitt

19-10-2005, 10:46

Point of interest, are CCR divers taught to deal with a mothpiece being kicked out?

Yes. It floods so once you have recovered it you have to make sure the water traps are doing their stuff and then decide if you have to purge the system.

If you see a CCR diver doing rolling and leaning moves something is probably making gurgling noises so they are tipping the water into a known place. Expect them to be annoyed if you kicked the mouthpiece out. 8-)

OK after a bad day I've tipped an awful lot of water out of the thing and it never missed a beat but that doesn't make me any happier when it starts going glub-glub-glub as I breath.

Paul B

19-10-2005, 10:58

The demographics seem to be changing, I used to struggle to get people on IFCs but now DL is becoming a problem. This years prospects split themselves between those pursuing BSAC (who now need technical training) and those that turned to IANTD/TDI (who would benefit from leadership and rescue training). Ignoring the arguments between the factions as to who has the best training /sigh/, it presents a difficult problem for the DO. The BSAC people are qualified to 50m but have no technical training. The others have the training but are not qualified by BSAC to exceed 35m. From my perspective I don't want either group to feel they have to go off on their own and learn the hard way.

Hi

Copied from BSAC 'Technical Safe Diving':

* All divers wishing to participate in technical diving should hold a minimum qualification of Sport Diver.

* All divers must have completed a technical training course with one of the BSAC recognised agencies:

? British Sub Aqua Club (BSAC)
? Technical Diving International (TDI)
? International Association of Nitrox and Technical Divers
? International Technical Diving Association (ITDA)
? American Nitrox Divers International (ANDI)

I have confirmed that this Information was correct with Jeff Reed (NDC TG Leader). So your Technical qualified members can dive below 35m.

Paul

Nigel Hewitt

19-10-2005, 11:20

>>Because 40 something isn't really technical.

>Nick's been a bit more diplomatic but <a href="mailto:b@lls">b@lls</a> Nigel. You seem to be bowing to the popular misunderstanding. Technical Diving ain't about equipment and depth, it is all about attitude and approach. The need for a technical approach comes in around 30m+ when a useful bottom time can mean significant stops and a free ascent is no longer a sensible option.

As I agree with most of the rest of the post I'll reply to this bit.

Perhaps we are using different definitions of 'technical' here. Once I used it to mean people doing things I wouldn't countenance but once I got to the point where the stops equalled or exceeded the bottom time even I had to admit I was getting maybe a little bit technical.

I quite like your definition but I don't think it's very useful. We just end up with the idea that everything we teach from SD up is technical and we then need a new word for what we are talking about here. We haven't gained anything.

To rephrase your words I feel that 'technical' is about 'equipment and depth' (or penetration) but requires 'attitude and approach'. However my attitude is laid back and, to many, my approach looks haphazard and this upsets them.

>Personally I prefer ERD to Trimix on a cost Vs bottom time basis - but it does depend on what is on the bottom. Should Nick stage an ERD exped and Mike fail to provide a desirable enough target, Nick would get my support.

What is on the bottom is always the question. Undeniably there are many divers who just want to dive but I see no attraction in a 'Dive to 45m' trip while dive the XXX can catch my interest. However there are lots of dives in the ERD range so we wouldn't consider that a special case. If the concept is as the title of this thread "BSAC Technical expedition" that does seem to imply deep, possibly seriously deep or complex for some other reason.

OK I confuse the issue by always having trimix in the CCR because it is not worth buying extra cylinders for 'mix and air. My ticket is for 'down to 18% O2' and although I will admit to breathing 14% on one occasion it was at a depth where 18% was OK so I'm keeping within the spirit of the card.

If what you want is trips into the ERD range there are lots of them going on within BSAC branches. We don't need to discuss them here we do them. I thought the whole concept here was to plan something outside that mindset. In the below 70m zone.

I support the idea and when I have the hours I will do the card but I've only been diving the rebreather for three days and they want four for full trimix.