View Full Version : Why are there no paying advertisers on here?
bythesea
20-07-2010, 11:29
This place is getting crammed full of advertising, I don't mean spam I mean people offering their resort info encouraging holidays or advertising the latest dive computer offer, these posters rarely give anything back to the boards just use it for free advertising.
So why are BSAC not offering paid sponsorship options to these people as is the standard practice for forums.
bythesea
20-07-2010, 11:31
This place is getting crammed full of advertising, I don't mean spam I mean people offering their resort info encouraging holidays or advertising the latest dive computer offer, these posters rarely give anything back to the boards just use it for free advertising.
So why are BSAC not offering paid sponsorship options to these people as is the standard practice for forums.
** I wrote this in the non diving section but the post went straight off for moderation which given the spam situation is a bit odd so I have reposted it here....
You've got my full support here.
These is a Council Team looking at the whole issue of Website access. Advertising is (if my memory is working) part of the remit.
Regards
Edward
Mike Halligan
20-07-2010, 13:19
This place is getting crammed full of advertising, I don't mean spam I mean people offering their resort info encouraging holidays or advertising the latest dive computer offer, these posters rarely give anything back to the boards just use it for free advertising.
So why are BSAC not offering paid sponsorship options to these people as is the standard practice for forums.
Because the forums are supported by volunteers for the benefit of users? :cool:
[If you want this to be a revenue stream, then you should buy your administration, management & support. ;) ]
bythesea
20-07-2010, 14:36
Because the forums are supported by volunteers for the benefit of users? :cool:
And exploited by those with commercial wares to advertise....
I am not talking about a revenue stream I am talking about the software supporting itself, running costs of the forum and upgrades just like in the real world.
Maybe a mod would like to merge the two threads on this subject, save server space etc, it all cost money you know ;)
bythesea
20-07-2010, 14:39
You've got my full support here.
These is a Council Team looking at the whole issue of Website access. Advertising is (if my memory is working) part of the remit.
Regards
Edward
I am glad to hear that Edward, thanks.
I am not talking huge profit but income from advertising would help towards running and update costs, just like all the other forums, diving and non diving.
Ron MacRae
20-07-2010, 15:02
..... income from advertising would help towards running and update costs, just like all the other forums, diving and non diving.
Fine as long as it doesn't become excessive. I've given up on some forums due to the ammount of advertising I have to wade through.
Ron.
It's also worth noting that the limited number of posts on here that could
be constued as advertising are often done by those already contributing to
the BSAC coffers.
A banner add, fair enough needs to be paid for, but details about a
special event or a reply to a genuine enquiry that naturally endorses a
pro-outfit shoudnt be classed in the same vein.
.
Threads Merged, same subject two different conversations.
Please don't double (triple,etc) post in multiple areas of the forum.
Gareth
There is an acceptance that BSAC schools can promote the BSAC (& themselves) on the forums, they do pay the BSAC for promotion, & are contributing to the BSAC.
The difficult line is where something may be argued to the benefit of the users & an advertisment. To some it should stay to others it shouldn't.
Generally if it is of benefit to the members of the BSAC & the users of these forums we are happy for it to stay. But it must be in moderation, if every other post is an advert then the moderates step in!
If as users you are unhappy with a post, please feel free to report it to the moderators. We may, (or maynot) remove it &/or caution the poster.
Gareth
bythesea
20-07-2010, 18:25
Threads Merged, same subject two different conversations.
Please don't double (triple,etc) post in multiple areas of the forum.
Gareth
Gareth, I asked for them to be merged, when I originally posted in the non diving section it went straight off for moderation which I found strange so just in case it didn't pass I posted on a non moderated section, yet another bizarrity of the workings of this place.
Back to the point.
If a member post only adverts for their own business could they be said to be contributing to the forum over all or just here to take what they can get, be they a BSAC centre or other.....
I ask because there are more and more of these posts each day from various sources, i am all for the freedom of the interweb but some one, i.e. you and me, pay for this forum, I don't pay for others to advertise commercially for free, I pay so people have a place to discuss and exchange ideas and experiences, it annoys me when I see what I consider to be people abusing the system for their own financial gain.
Gareth, I asked for them to be merged, when I originally posted in the non diving section it went straight off for moderation which I found strange so just in case it didn't pass I posted on a non moderated section, yet another bizarrity of the workings of this place.
Back to the point.
If a member post only adverts for their own business could they be said to be contributing to the forum over all or just here to take what they can get, be they a BSAC centre or other.....
I ask because there are more and more of these posts each day from various sources, i am all for the freedom of the interweb but some one, i.e. you and me, pay for this forum, I don't pay for others to advertise commercially for free, I pay so people have a place to discuss and exchange ideas and experiences, it annoys me when I see what I consider to be people abusing the system for their own financial gain.
Yes, in fairness, you did indeed ask the threads to be merged. The posting was to inform everyone, that the thread had been merged, & also inform everyone not to multipost.
I do agree that we have been seeing more advertising in recent weeks.
Please make your views known. This is afterall a members forum, although it also encourages non-members in the 'public' area. The way the forums are run should reflect the views of the membership. (both BSAC & public).
Whilst there is council oversite, it has long been an important principle that the forum are moderated with minimal interference from council, allowing open debate & discussion. The greatest moderation is that exibited by the members themselves, who, mostly, discourage inappropriate or insulting behaviour. Whilst passions often get raised, it is pleasing that the moderation team are seldom required to wield a big stick, an occassional kindly word is sometimes required, but by & large it is the members themselves that self moderate.
Gareth
Gareth, I asked for them to be merged, when I originally posted in the non diving section it went straight off for moderation which I found strange so just in case it didn't pass I posted on a non moderated section, yet another bizarrity of the workings of this place.
Hi,
If you were looking to drop in some innocuous spam or porn where would you put it. ;)
Hamish
bythesea
20-07-2010, 19:37
Hi,
If you were looking to drop in some innocuous spam or porn where would you put it. ;)
Hamish
Anywhere I felt like it, loads gets through Hamish, spammers don't play by your rules, they post wherever they want.
Anywhere I felt like it, loads gets through Hamish, spammers don't play by your rules, they post wherever they want.
Hi Bythesea (sorry if you have told us a name to reply to other than the user name, I’m senile so have an excuse for forgetting),
An honest question prompted by your quote.
You say loads get through and you are not the first user to say this in the last week or so. But, and I'm sure I'm not alone here among the mod's. I trawl the posts, both new and updated on a daily/nightly basis. Yes I do find spam/porn postings which are removed as quickly as possible. I also trawl the users on line list as spam/porn bot’s (including the human kind) can be spotted and banned before they even get access.
So how many spam/porn posts would you say get through and are not picked up?
If they as you say have not been picked up do you report it and by which avenue?
Regards
Hamish
So how many spam/porn posts would you say get through and are not picked up?
On average i'd say at least 6 a day, in fact log on in the early hours, look
at the who is online page and the spammers will easily outnumber the
genuine ones.
True they usually get chopped when a mod comes on later and you could
say so what, but seeing as we have members all over the world in different
timezones, I dont really think we have the luxury of waiting till later in the
day.
It might seem a minor irritation to some, but it makes us look sloppy TBH.
PS: Right now we have a definate 2 and possible 2 more.
Radayer, RosemarieCapata, Russell, yosemite_sam
On average i'd say at least 6 a day, in fact log on in the early hours, look
at the who is online page and the spammers will easily outnumber the
genuine ones.
True they usually get chopped when a mod comes on later and you could
say so what, but seeing as we have members all over the world in different
timezones, I dont really think we have the luxury of waiting till later in the
day.
It might seem a minor irritation to some, but it makes us look sloppy TBH.
PS: Right now we have a definate 2 and possible 2 more.
******, ********, *******, ********
Hi Terry,
I'm only one of the mod's on here so cannot reply to why we do not have more mod's who are geographically located so we have 24 hour cover.
But as to the users named, 2 are current BSAC members and the other 2 are banned.
Remember banned users will still show on the user's on line but will not have the access to post.
regards
Hamish
Adrian Kelland
20-07-2010, 20:29
Hi Terry,
I'm only one of the mod's on here so cannot reply to why we do not have more mod's who are geographically located so we have 24 hour cover.
But as to the users named, 2 are current BSAC members and the other 2 are banned.
Remember banned users will still show on the user's on line but will not have the access to post.
regards
Hamish
We used to have Tristram in Hong Kong, but situations change and it would be unfair to expect people to continue to give up their free time.
There are ways to handle a greater %age of the spam, but there is a cost implication and the forums do not rate highly as a place to spend money. The original implementation of the vBulletin software was possible on the back of new server capacity. IIRC, this server is now past the planned life. Those who keep it going are not to blame for the spam, it is a consequence of the limits they are working to.
Adrian
On average i'd say at least 6 a day,OK that's 6 out of about several 1000 attempts per day then.
in fact log on in the early hours,...the spammers will easily outnumber the genuine ones.Absolutely right.
but seeing as we have members all over the world in different
timezones, I dont really think we have the luxury of waiting till later in the
day.See your point above. Apart from a couple genuine users, the only people logging into the forum at silly O'Clock are the spam bots, and occasionally an admin doing some work on the server, when we are only likely to inconvenience the spam bots. However many time zones we have members in, hardly any of them are using the forums between 11pm and 6am.
It might seem a minor irritation to some, but it makes us look sloppy TBH.There are several things we could do that would be very effective in reducing not only the spam you see but all the volume that is currently removed by the moderators invisibly.
1. Cut off the networks that harbour spammers.
2. Moderate all new registrations.
3. Close the public forums.
Council have been made aware of these options and the cost benefit of each. They have not agreed to implement any of them for reasons of accessibility.
Council have stated an intention to upgrade the forum software at some point, which should provides some new features to reduce the mods workload, but the amount of spam getting through is unlikely to fall unless we implement one or more of options mentioned. Oh, and the more inaccessible we make the forums, the more time the mods spend responding to queries from legitimate users that are struggling to access the forums.
Sorry Terry, the amount of spam that gets through is not even registering on my inconvenience O'meter at the moment. I am far more concerned at the ******* trying to DOS the e-mail.
bythesea
20-07-2010, 22:56
but there is a cost implication
Indeed and how could we raise that money.....paying advertisers maybe?
As for Matts points, there are ways to keep the forum accessible without implementing cuts etc many other forums manage this, I can't remember the last bit of spam I saw on YD
...but some one, i.e. you and me, pay for this forum,No you don't. The forums are operated on a server that was commissioned by Council primarily to run the BSAC web site. Some years later Council elected to commission a new web site which required different server technology. The forum server can not simply be switched off as it is heavily integrated into the BSAC's wide area infrastructure and there is a cost to migrating all the other services it provides to the BSAC network.
The forum system was originally commissioned and continues to be maintained and moderated, entirely voluntarily. If you took the forums away, the gross financial saving to BSAC would be exactly zero.
So you pay nothing at all and never have paid anything for the forums to operate.
The costs of commissioning and operating the forums is carried by those that volunteer their time and expertise towards the moderation and sysadmin. Without them finding the time for free, I doubt the forums would be here.
I don't pay for others to advertise commercially for free, I pay so people have a place to discuss and exchange ideas and experiences, it annoys me when I see what I consider to be people abusing the system for their own financial gain.Well I think we have established that you are not paying for anything.
I do the sysadmin on the forum sever and it is a task I charge others to do, so I guess it could be seen as having a financial value. Although I share your sentiment, as a BSAC volunteer I have to play as part of the team. There are other volunteers in BSAC that have their reasons for not wanting us to sell cheap advertising on forum pages. There are other volunteers that wish to provide a benefit to BSAC partners. Council of course make the final decision, and I play along with what I do not agree with so that other BSAC members, like you, can continue to express your diving related opinions.
bythesea
20-07-2010, 23:02
So who pays for the servers, the storage, the bandwidth?
surely as a member and therefore a stakeholder there is an outlay to keep things going, unless it is on a privately owned sever that runs on fresh air of course there is a cost, paid for out of membership fees? Even the domain name has to be paid for periodically... The purchase of the forum software, the upgrades, it all costs...
barrygoss
20-07-2010, 23:11
yep,
actually for once I'll step up with BTS at this point :-P
I'm lucky, my current job allows me a certain lattitiude IT wise, and every day, all day, I have open this site and YD all day.
Now about 3pm we get an influx of spammers, who I usually red when I see them post and report said posts, however, give a few people the ability to remove spam and the system looks so much tighter and therefore gets less spam
They hit the easy targets first :-) because there are no defences and they look easy.
its an option.
And we all know one antipodean dag who I'm sure would love to be able to cover our arse's overnight :-P
B
and right now, tell me zyxgqxov isn't a spammer just registering :-)
So who pays for the servers, the storage, the bandwidth?The cost of servers, bandwidth, storage, electricity, air con remains exactly the same whether the forums are being operated or not.
Think of a server like a taxi. The journey costs the same whether you have two passengers or three passengers in the taxi. The BSAC had two passengers already, the forum made three. Take the forums away and the journey costs exactly the same.
surely as a member and therefore a stakeholder there is an outlay to keep things going, unless it is on a privately owned sever that runs on fresh air of course there is a cost,The facilities and bandwidth charges are absorbed within our rack providers minimum charge. We are charged by the box, not by the number of applications we run on it. The BSAC can not do without the box. Applications would usually attract support charges, but the forums are supported voluntarily. So no, they cost you nothing.
Even the domain name has to be paid for periodically...Ah yes, the domain name. I admit I forgot about that. £2.99 a year it is then.
bythesea
20-07-2010, 23:36
OK..didn't know BSAC had its own server bunker somewhere at HQ....
That doesn't detract from my opening question reference wasted revenue through lack of usage of potential money making resources and people generally having a freebie... and I make no reference to spam, that is a different subject.
Now about 3pm we get an influx of spammers, who I usually red when I see them post and report said posts, however, give a few people the ability to remove spam and the system looks so much tighter and therefore gets less spamThe problem is that when you give people the power to remove spam, you have also given them the power to mess things up. The current moderation team is tight, easy to manage and rarely mess things up.
But as to the users named, 2 are current BSAC members and the other 2 are banned.
Remember banned users will still show on the user's on line but will not have the access to post.
They might be banned and they might not have access, but quite often
the website links will remain. The rest of us who do have access can still
see read what that is as probably the googlebots can.
There are several things we could do that would be very effective in reducing not only the spam you see but all the volume that is currently removed by the moderators invisibly.
1. Cut off the networks that harbour spammers.
2. Moderate all new registrations.
3. Close the public forums.
Council have been made aware of these options and the cost benefit of each. They have not agreed to implement any of them for reasons of accessibility.
Seeing as BSAC members automaticly get in, any non-BSAC could be hived
off and like you say modded at a later date. If the mod authorise as fast as
they deal with spam, then the delay would be at most 12 hours.
In the meantime any new potential member would be able to read the
forum and would get an email as soon as authorised.
Thousands if not tens of thousands of forums work this way without any
issues of accessabilty, so there really is no reason why we cant do the
same and save all this hassle in one swoop.
Tristan Green
21-07-2010, 00:06
We used to have Tristram in Hong Kong, but situations change and it would be unfair to expect people to continue to give up their free time.
Adrian
I'm still here - just a bit further around (now in Melbourne so 2 hours further ahead) - and drop in when I can, but as others have said time is at a premium most days so my policing duties are limited.
Cheers,
Tristan
OK..didn't know BSAC had its own server bunker somewhere at HQ....They don't. They rent a couple shelves in someone else's bunker.
That doesn't detract from my opening question reference wasted revenue through lack of usage of potential money making resources and people generally having a freebie... and I make no reference to spam, that is a different subject.Any unsolicited marketing message is spam as far as I am concerned. I really don't care whether they are selling some tablet made by Pfizer or yet another once in a lifetime Red Sea experience. If it reads like a marketing message and it was not invited, it's spam.
We have an announcement clause in the AUP, to allow skippers to post boat spaces for instance. How would you go about strengthening it to prevent the content you don't want to see?
Tristan Green
21-07-2010, 00:17
They might be banned and they might not have access, but quite often the website links will remain. The rest of us who do have access can still see read what that is as probably the googlebots can.
Terry,
When a spam poster is reported or recognised through the moderation process on the moderated forums we delete the post, ban the user and remove any website links from their user profile. If you notice any banned users that still have links viewable on the forum please report it to the moderators and we can take action.
We are only human and one or two links may remain but we try our best given the resources available. I should also point out that the moderation team are very grateful for the support of the regular users in highlighting any spam posts that make it past us and in giving us some time to take the required actions.
Cheers,
Tristan
Seeing as BSAC members automaticly get in, any non-BSAC could be hived off and like you say modded at a later date. BSAC members do not automatically get in. They have to register before they can complete the fields in their profile which are used for membership verification.
If the mod authorise as fast as they deal with spam, then the delay would be at most 12 hours.So you want to compel volunteer mods to an SLA? Do you think we ought to ask them to agree to it first?
Thousands if not tens of thousands of forums work this way without any issues of accessabilty, so there really is no reason why we cant do the
same and save all this hassle in one swoop.You say the words...
As soon as you do anything that prevents a user doing what they want to do, it IS an accessibility issue. Oddly enough, I read the forums inhabited by sysadmins and there is no one way to deal with spam as far as I can see. In fact, 1000s of forums have abandoned Vb in recent years due to the incessant volume of spam it attracts. Different forums do different things, but the popular ones all have issues somewhere along the line. The best methods are the draconian methods but accessibility for legitimate users is the main issue against taking draconian measures.
To be clear, I am not entirely against moderating users prior to registration. It is one of those points I am happy to see reviewed once Council commit to a timescale for replacing the forum software. The brunt of the work would fall to the moderators and I regard their buy in is as essential.
BSAC members do not automatically get in. They have to register before they can complete the fields in their profile which are used for membership verification..
Come on Matt, same thing. They automaticly get in via the authentication of
there existing BSAC number. A non-BSAC applicant wouldnt have this luxury.
So you want to compel volunteer mods to an SLA? Do you think we ought to ask them to agree to it first?.
Funnily enough I would have thought that any mod would agree to any
policy that makes there life easier. If it didnt then there wouldnt be much
point in doing it anyway.
Maybe it's just me being simplistic, but why is expanding the mod team an
issue, when the only area that is effected is the public one. Surely more
mods could be engaged and using forum tools, limit what they can do to only
accepting or banning new non-BSAC applicants.
That way you'd still keep a "tight" team, but have some mods with a specific
role.
Tristan Green
21-07-2010, 07:57
Come on Matt, same thing. They automaticly get in via the authentication of there existing BSAC number. A non-BSAC applicant wouldnt have this luxury.
Maybe not the same thing depending on what you mean by automatically. The way the forum works is that a user completes the registration, which at the moment is not moderated. When they have completed the online form and received and hit the link in the automatically generated email from the forum they can then access all the public areas of the forum. They can then post threads in the public forums.
Users can only access the BSAC member areas after they have completed their membership details in the user CP. The entered membership information is checked against the BSAC membership database automatically - without any action by moderators or sysadmins. If details are correct then they get access to the remaining areas.
If we were to moderate all new user registrations this would stop access to everyone, BSAC member or not, until a moderator checks in and allows registration to proceed. The moderators have no way of knowing who is a BSAC member or not until the automatic verification against the BSAC database is performed by the system so I would imagine that most would be unlikely to bar access to anyone except on the basis of their chosen username. I don't want to start the debate on usernames again.
Cheers,
Tristan
If a member post only adverts for their own business could they be said to be contributing to the forum over all or just here to take what they can get, be they a BSAC centre or other.....
I ask because there are more and more of these posts each day from various sources, i am all for the freedom of the interweb but some one, i.e. you and me, pay for this forum, I don't pay for others to advertise commercially for free, I pay so people have a place to discuss and exchange ideas and experiences, it annoys me when I see what I consider to be people abusing the system for their own financial gain.
A problem we have (amongst others) is that one persons junk is another persons useful info. If a skipper comes on here and says "I have four spaces this Saturday diving the XXX", if you live nearby and are free then that is useful. If you live the other end of the country it is just spam. If you're asking about holidays in XXX and Joe Bloggs pops up and says I run a dive centre in XXX then that is useful.
A lot of posts you are talking about fall in that category, some are definitely more takers than gives, others give a worthwhile contribution to the forum but at the same time gets a certain amount of free advertising, personally I think some of these fully justify their advertising by the contribution they give - Steve In Sharm being the obvious example.
Where the dividing line is between the "should probably be deleted" and "can definitely stay" can be hard to define, we probably err on the side of caution most of the time. Perhaps more than we should.
ChristianG
03-08-2010, 15:36
The way the forum works is that a user completes the registration, which at the moment is not moderated.
I'm not entirely sure about that.
Just today I got a PM from one of the mods asking if I knew of an "x-y-z", IP address in "a certain African country not unaligned with scams", who had claimed that they wanted to come on board at my suggestion.
I don't do stuff like that, recommend anyone to a Forum, on the premise that they can do it for themselves - just like I did. So I wrote back along those lines and, no doubt, that person will not become a member.
I'm not entirely sure about that.
Just today I got a PM from one of the mods asking if I knew of an "x-y-z", IP address in "a certain African country not unaligned with scams", who had claimed that they wanted to come on board at my suggestion.
I don't do stuff like that, recommend anyone to a Forum, on the premise that they can do it for themselves - just like I did. So I wrote back along those lines and, no doubt, that person will not become a member.
When you register there is an optional box for referring member. The bot (human or computer) probably picked your name as a regular poster and used that in an attempt to legitimise their attempted registration.
The person had actually registered (and may have posted) but was banned by Hamish, I think the PM was just sent out of politeness just in case you had recommended someone
I'm not entirely sure about that.With respect Christian can you please try to avoid confusing one thing by referring to another thing. Tristan was talking about automatic verification of BSAC
members and he is entirely sure of what he is talking about.
You had a PM from the moderator because some scam artist read the board, saw you were a prolific poster and then registered, entering your username in the referrer field. The moderator, was thoughtful enough to check you did not actually have a diving friend in Nigeria, in case a banning might upset you. Personally I would not have bothered, but please note the quality of the moderators that are attending to you. The personal attention the moderators put in is far in excess of anything I have seen, or would accept, on a corporate IT help desk.
I don't do stuff like that, recommend anyone to a Forum, on the premise that they can do it for themselvesI am sure that will be kept in mind in the future.
Tristan Green
04-08-2010, 01:12
I'm not entirely sure about that.
That's okay. There are plenty of things that I'm not sure about. :D
However I am sure about the registration process for these forums, having been an administrator since the reincarnation of these forums using the current vBulletin software in 2005.
If you misunderstood my post above I hope that the comment by MattS has helped.
Cheers,
Tristan
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