Cost of SDC Packs [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

mark allen

12-11-2005, 21:33

Adrian Kelland

12-11-2005, 21:51

For all members information
TWO packs are set to rise in the New Year.

Boat handling SDC pack is being put up from ?12 to ?29 this is so that the new seamanship book can be included in it!

PRM pack is being put up from ?12 to ?19 this is so the Safety and rescue for divers book is included.

Could I please have BSAC members thought on this
Mark Allen
BSAC Council member
Hi Mark,

I would prefer to have the option to buy the additional books.

Putting up the cost of BH by ?17 to buy a book makes it look as though the print run was too high. How many have been sold since publication out of how many?

These are courses, not sales opportunities. If there is material in the books required for the course, it should have already been in the course notes. If not, then the books are an extra. Useful maybe (I have the previous edition of the seamanship book), but it should be down to the student to decide if they want to take their knowledge further. This allows little choice.

Adrian

Philip Smith

12-11-2005, 22:26

For all members information
TWO packs are set to rise in the New Year.

Could I please have BSAC members thought on this

SDC candidates may already own the books. I think the books should be strongly recommended reading, but their purchase should not be mandatory. Less well-off members could rely on branch-owned copies for study. SDC costs should be kept to a minimum to encourage greater participation.

Phil S

Gareth Webber

12-11-2005, 23:17

Hi,

I already have the safety and rescue book - I bought it when I did by lifesaver. As such I wouldn't need it in PRM and would object to the price rise.

Gareth

(Did First aid, lifesaver and O2 as an ocean diver. PRM is sports diver I think and so I don't think I am the only person who might have bought this book already).

Dave

13-11-2005, 04:17

John Williams

13-11-2005, 06:19

People will now NOT buy the book ....but will delay purchase for the SDC (or will not do the SDC because they will be wasting their money getting a second copy of the book!)

Perhaps the SDC cost could be two tier - with those providing evidence that they have the book (or access to it) paying the lower fee.

Lots of problems in that - people borrowing books etc. - but I really don't think that you can insist that an SDC requires a book that people may already have.

Out of interest - how many people buy "Teaching Scuba Diving"? ...the book provided on the IFC.

John

terryh

13-11-2005, 07:19

For all members information
TWO packs are set to rise in the New Year.

Boat handling SDC pack is being put up from ?12 to ?29 this is so that the new seamanship book can be included in it!

PRM pack is being put up from ?12 to ?19 this is so the Safety and rescue for divers book is included.

Could I please have BSAC members thought on this
Mark Allen
BSAC Council member

Well here's a thought.
Dive Leader pack is ?8 as long as I have all the other stuff.
It doesnt though include the Dive Leader manual, which logic
says I should buy. Ok so add ?15 = ?23.
Problem now is that if the PRM SDC needs the safety and rescue
book then how can I not get it for the PRM in DL?
That's another ?13. So I'm on ?36.

But .........

What if I'm a PADI crossover and looking to do Dive Leader?
Basic pack works out at ?30. So add that lot up and if we are
doing it properly the total is now a wopping ?63!

TerryH

Gareth Webber

13-11-2005, 12:31

Out of interest - how many people buy "Teaching Scuba Diving"? ...the book provided on the IFC.

John

I was going to buy it as I like to do some background reading before doing a course (tends to stick in my mind better that way) but then held off once I found out I would end up with two copies.

Gareth

Helen Butcher

13-11-2005, 13:41

For all members information
TWO packs are set to rise in the New Year.
Boat handling SDC pack is being put up from ?12 to ?29 this is so that the new seamanship book can be included in it!

PRM pack is being put up from ?12 to ?19 this is so the Safety and rescue for divers book is included.

Hmm - but is this info being sent out to clubs? as well as being posted here.
Several of us who were planning to do the boat handling course in the new year have already bought the seamanship book at the dive show!
As other people have said I now own both books, having bought them at the same time as doing a related course, and I would object to having to have an additional copy to do a SDC, when I already own it. Much better to have the option to buy it seperately, with a recommendation before the course that it is very useful reading.
It probably wouldn't stop me from doing the SDC as i'd probably sell my copies on to a new trainee, but it would annoy me and i'd make comments about admin judgements by BSAC.

David Walker

13-11-2005, 16:26

TWO packs are set to rise in the New Year.
Could I please have BSAC members thought on this

Packs are "set to rise" next year - does that mean you've already decided, and if so what's the point in asking us? I'd hope that if the rest of the feedback continues as it has so far that BSAC would seriously reconsider the option.

As others have said, people may already own the books - ok they could sell it on, but why should they have to go to that trouble and more than likely sell it at a loss? One point was made about the IFC book - I think it was Gareth who said he liked to do background reading *before* the course, something we can't do unless we buy two.

Frankly it seems like a stupid way to try to sell more books. Leave it as an OPTION to be included with Boat Handling!

David

matt

13-11-2005, 17:13

Out of interest - how many people buy "Teaching Scuba Diving"? ...the book provided on the IFC.

I bought it when I was teaching as a Dive Leader. I then got a copy on the ITC which has been donated to the branch.

While we are here. I wonder how many people had Nitrox computers or downloaded deco software prior to their BSAC Nitrox course?

matt

13-11-2005, 17:29

Having read the comments it sounds like a tax on the conscientious!

I support the idea of making essential and useful reference material mandatory, but surely we can come up with a way to save club members buing the book twice.

gareth

13-11-2005, 17:40

Mark

I don't want to seem inpolite, but who ever came up with this idea needs his/her head examining.

Yes it should be recommended reading - but not a compulsary part of the SDC. Alternately if it is to become a compulsary part of the SDC, then there should be an optional part of the SDC pack - but this is going to increase the level of admin' for HQ.

A huge number of people already own these books. This will stop individuals buying the books, they will wait until they eventually (maybe never) do the SDC.
Most people buy the book out of interest in the general subject, this then often encourages them to do the SDC at a later date.
You risk the loss of all the sales to all those who are interested in the general subject but never progress onto do the SDC!

Does this mean there is a new version of the Safety & Rescue for Divers manual?

Gareth

Steve Walsh

13-11-2005, 19:45

For all members information
TWO packs are set to rise in the New Year.

Boat handling SDC pack is being put up from ?12 to ?29 this is so that the new seamanship book can be included in it!

PRM pack is being put up from ?12 to ?19 this is so the Safety and rescue for divers book is included.

Could I please have BSAC members thought on this
Mark Allen
BSAC Council member

Hmmmm , profiteering here I think.

Most sensible divers will already have the Safety and rescue book even if they have not yet done the PRM course as it gives a good knowledge base.
the vast majority of divers who wish to do the boat handling course will already have purchased the seamanship for divers, I did and am planning to do the course in the new year.
I bought both books at the dive show and not one of the members on the stand mentioned that these may be included in the cost of courses in the New Year which is not very good.

Is BSAC trying to go down the PADI route?

It looks like somebody overestimated the number of these boks required on the print run and now needs to 'offload' them, not a very good way to treat members.

MarkA

14-11-2005, 14:08

Lots of problems in that - people borrowing books etc. - but I really don't think that you can insist that an SDC requires a book that people may already have.

Out of interest - how many people buy "Teaching Scuba Diving"? ...the book provided on the IFC.

John

A member of our club attended the Show in the NEC last month and went to the BSAC stand and asked if they had anything that could help her on her forthcoming IFC. She was SOLD a copy of Teaching Scuba Diving even though she would have one given to her 2 weeks later. Good advice given there

Mark

AndyWilkes

14-11-2005, 15:32

I agree with all the other posts before me! I to have already pruchased the book and intend to do the Boat Handling course next year so will end up with 2 books!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes fair enough to be reccomended on the course or even an option when subscribing to go on the course BUT NOT automatically included!!!

Cheers
Andy

For all members information
TWO packs are set to rise in the New Year.

Boat handling SDC pack is being put up from ?12 to ?29 this is so that the new seamanship book can be included in it!

PRM pack is being put up from ?12 to ?19 this is so the Safety and rescue for divers book is included.

Could I please have BSAC members thought on this
Mark Allen
BSAC Council member

jim watson

14-11-2005, 17:16

BSAC Skill Development Course Packs

History
The original introduction of Skill Development Courses was supported by plain paper photocopies of student notes to reflect the available technology and resources of the day. Some courses still follow this format but are steadily being updated within a planned review of the content and quality of our training materials.
From the early 1990?s the introduction of new courses especially Nitrox, FFM and ERD were supported by the development of professionally published and bound Student notes to reflect a more professional and consistent standard demanded by a quality training course. These books allowed inclusion of quality illustrations necessary to support the training provided. There is an obvious cost implication for such a quality product that is managed by ordering such materials in bulk and a rapid use of materials is necessary to ensure that training updates can be accommodated.
With the development of new technical courses such as Rebreather Training a similar rationale for the need of quality illustration has been carried through but the projected small numbers of courses has required a different approach to the provision of suitable training materials. The Student notes for these packs are produced within the BSAC as a printed and bound Manual produced on demand. This allows for immediate updating and modification as necessary.
As part of the review and redevelopment Boathandling course careful consideration was given both to the content of the course and the necessary support references. At the time of development of the course Seamanship for Divers was out of print and being re-written but the course was written with subsequent publication in mind. In addition the course looked specifically at the training requirements not only for Boat Handling but also for successful completion of the Diver Coxswain award. Specific account was also taken of both the Legal responsibilities of both the Member Club/owner drivers and of the BSAC (and other CDA members) in producing a safe course.

The BSAC Boat Handling Course Rationale
The BSAC (CDA) Boat Handling Course aims to provide the training necessary to safely begin using a Club dive boat under the supervision of a more experienced Coxswain. The course does not provide formal assessment of skills as we believe it is preferable to gain additional supervised practice with an instructor before being let loose to practice on real divers back in the branch. Furthermore the BSAC (CDA) has always recognised that it is not possible to cover all the essential aspects required for safe Boathandling in a single weekend?s course. We have always addressed this by making reference to further information and directed people to the most appropriate source available, previous versions of Seamanship when available, but this often meant referring to a variety of sources and few non-BSAC publications refer to the specific implications for divers. By writing the revised course with a specific reference manual in mind it has been possible to produce a much more targeted level of training to the specifics necessary and so reduce the level of theory covered by scanning the essentials and providing specific advice for further reading. The importance of knowledge of the support materials is so fundamental to the Safe Operation of Member Club Boats that the BSAC cannot, as a responsible organisation, support a situation where the correct reference and training materials exist and are not directly provided to members going through such training. This is especially important where knowledge of this essential material and specifically its relevance to diving operations is to be assessed for the Diver Coxswain award.
The question may be asked as to why the Student notes could not be produced to reflect the required knowledge. The key point should be that the Student Notes for a course should reflect and support the training provided within that course. However, additional material can be included where appropriate through the provision of additional resources other than the Student Notes themselves.
This includes Manuals as used within the Ocean Diver Course to further illustrate the training within the course or specific resources such as the Nitrox Tables within the Nitrox packs and the Blendercalc CDROM within the Mixer Blender Course.
By keeping the Student Materials separate it is then easier to update training should a change be necessary. On the other hand by having a separate Manual that covers information that remains fairly static, seamanship principles established over a considerable period of maritime history, not only can the manual be used to support the course material and training but it serves as a valuable resource for other purposes including experienced divers and boat handlers/coxswains.

Other SDC packs
The precedent for including of appropriate training materials within an SDC training pack are already well established.

As already mentioned the basic and Advanced Nitrox courses were designed to provide complete training for the safe use of nitrox. Whilst the courses make reference to the use of nitrox computers the major emphasis is on the use of the BSAC Nitrox Tables. This is because the tables are designed to not only cover safe avoidance of decompression illness but also to aid avoidance of oxygen toxicity problems using the principle of look up tables rather than reliance of calculations. It is therefore deemed imperative that the courses included this resource and the pack pricing reflects this necessity.
Nitrox/ERD/FFM are all currently produced as printed books with illustrations that carry a consequent cost implication and the pricing of these respective SDC packs reflect this. Likewise the previous version of the Disability Awareness course used to contain a copy of the BSAC publication ?Diving for the Disabled? and the present Gas Mixer/Blender course has CD-ROM gas calculator included in the course cost.

BSAC Diver Training
It is a long established principle of BSAC Diver Training for students to have their own copy of any relevant training materials both at the time they carry out their original training and to be able to refer back to once they have qualified. This was reinforced by a Coroners ruling in the late 1980?s (?) where the Coroner severely criticised an Instructor and his training agency for failing to do this. As a consequence the BSAC has continued and indeed reinforced our principle such that we take appropriate steps to ensure that this happens by adopting appropriate administrative procedures. This includes only supplying Ocean Diver Training Packs as a complete pack to include the Student Notes, QRB and ?The Diving Manual?. The latter whilst illustrative of the teaching points in the course being deemed essential reading for all divers undergoing this training.

Dive Leader?
The commentregarding Dive Leader Training materials is an interesting suggestion and one that the National Diving Committee (NDC) Diver Training Group are specifically reviewing at this time.

Future
As More Courses are developed then the brief to the respective working groups is to look carefully at the requirements of the course and to specify both the content of the course training materials and support materials that may be necessary. Where existing materials already exist for essential components for a course then these should be incorporated into the course packs. Whatever contents are determined the BSAC needs a flexible structure to allow for meeting the requirements for a particular course. Such flexibility is necessary to adapt for example a Marine life ID course for tropical reefs rather than specifically UK species and a Photography course would need to be adaptable for different types and formats of camera, digital, housed SLR and dedicated U/W film cameras.
The driving force for any decisions for the content and format of course will however remain quality (and safety) of content rather than simple cost.

Duplication of materials
The BSAC have an established policy over duplication of training materials. The ?Teaching Scuba Diving Manual? is an established part of the Student Pack for the Instructor Foundation Course. In the past keen and enthusiastic members have taken the opportunity to buy and read this book before they attended the IFC (or previous ITC) and were sometimes dismayed to receive a second copy. We try to ensure that our publicity for this event prevents such duplication but it still does occasionally occur. In such instances members are able to return the duplicate book (in undamaged/unused condition) for a refund providing they can provide evidence of the original purchase.
In the case of the Boathandling course (and any similar courses) the same process will be adopted where members have already purchased the relevant training materials.

Jim Watson
BSAC HQ

Paul Leyland

14-11-2005, 19:34

But what about the instructors?
Do we get the new books supplied to us?
No!
We have to purchase them. So can we claim the cost of the "uptodate" matererial back from HQ if we instruct on the course.

Paul Leyland

14-11-2005, 19:36

But what about the instructors?
Do we get the new books supplied to us?
No!
We have to purchase them. So can we claim the cost of the "uptodate" matererial back from HQ if we instruct on the course.

Steve Walsh

14-11-2005, 20:12

In such instances members are able to return the duplicate book (in undamaged/unused condition) for a refund providing they can provide evidence of the original purchase.
In the case of the Boathandling course (and any similar courses) the same process will be adopted where members have already purchased the relevant training materials.

Jim Watson
BSAC HQ

why not ask the member if they require the books when they book the course, sent out in bulk would reduce the administrative costs and mean that members would not have to apply for the reimbursement upon return of the 'pristine condition ' book issued as part of the SDC pack.

I didnt keep my receipt from the dive show you don't really expect a book to be faulty and have to return it!!! you tend to flick through when you purchase it.

Not very well thought out by HQ.

Adrian Kelland

14-11-2005, 21:23

But what about the instructors?
Do we get the new books supplied to us?
No!
We have to purchase them. So can we claim the cost of the "uptodate" matererial back from HQ if we instruct on the course.

Nice try Paul.

Tommy Smith

15-11-2005, 08:03

I have just received my magazine with the new SDC course book in it and I see that the PRM is having a book included in it. I have had this book for some years now as well as the club so why are BSAC putting this book in and raising the cost of PRM as this book is now very out of date.
Tommy
A unhappy BSAC member
BSAC Skill Development Course Packs

gareth webber

15-11-2005, 09:33

Will a print out of an ebay auction win count as proof of purchase?

Gareth

Khaled Alwassia

15-11-2005, 11:03

I have both books already and would get a second copy if i attend the SDC?

What for?

Khaled

Andy Wade

15-11-2005, 11:14

For all members information
TWO packs are set to rise in the New Year.

Boat handling SDC pack is being put up from ?12 to ?29 this is so that the new seamanship book can be included in it!

PRM pack is being put up from ?12 to ?19 this is so the Safety and rescue for divers book is included.

Could I please have BSAC members thought on this

Actually I don't think it's a great idea really.
I just wanted to balance the argument up a bit...
;-)
Gosh, is this a troll?
Seriously though, I'd like to suggest that instead, a stack of books is taken to all SDC's (where possible) and sold direct to the the trainees on the course, that way they'd benefit from the quick sale, without the cost of postage and packing. This information could be included in the joining instructions or when people apply for the course, so they know that there will be the opportunity to buy a book on the SDC.
It's a better sales opportunity than this clearly unpopular idea.

Khaled Alwassia

15-11-2005, 11:38

Jim,
thank you very much for the detailed explanation on the background, if i understood correctly most posting did not object to the need of having the book for the course as reference material. But the issue is of offering a option to get the course materials without the book if the DO or TO can verfiy that the book is actually at hand with the potential SDC participant.
Returning books is very well within the UK, tell how that will be done in the Middle East. We order the full set (maily by DHL to ensure timely availability and avoid postal service mishaps) and send the books we do not need back by DHL?

I for one saw the advert on the webpage for the new book Seamann ship for Divers and ordered it. But i do not recall a warning next to the advertisment which read that i get the book in the course if i plan to take the SDC in the next year.

Regards

Khaled

Michelle Haywood

15-11-2005, 11:58

As someone involved in the administration of these courses at a Regional Level I would like to make a couple of observations.

Firstly, was the forum really the correct channel to issue such important information regarding the cost of course packs. As SDCO I have had no direct notification of this change, which would have been common courtesy. Waiting for the jungle drums to pass the message isn't really a good idea. As we always point out to our members, all the training is on a voluntary basis...and we all have other jobs to do (to earn the money to pay for the packs!). I hate to say it because I know you are nice people really, but please don't act arrogantly. It does **** people off.

Secondly, we have already started booking people onto our PoE for next year, and now have the added administration required to deal with this change. More notice would have helped us hand out the correct information from the start. Now we have to go back to them, increasing the workload on volunteers.

Thirdly, would it not be possible for us to offer a two tier system, ie with/without the books, for an interim period to allow those who have purchase the (heavily publicised) Seamanship Manual not to have to deal with the returns?

(OK I lied...more than a couple of observations...)

Michelle Haywood
London SDCO (but soon to be ex-SDCO (nothing to do with this!))

andy botten

15-11-2005, 13:49

Andy Wade

15-11-2005, 16:14

It is generally agreed the hand outs for FAD are far from ideal
Why don't we include the Red Cross / St John's First Aid Manual.

I am more in favour of Andy Wade's idea: sell them on the course without the P&P overhead. Even with the burden it is going to put on course bosses.

Well if they're going to be taking them to the course anyway it seemed a good compromise, although I'm not that sure about the change in policy from 'recommended reading' to 'compulsary purchase' of the manuals.
Isn't diving first aid covered in the Safety and Rescue for Divers manual? And the Red Cross first aid manual is excellent... I'm hoping to help deliver a baby in a lift one day....
8-0

Helen Butcher

15-11-2005, 22:34

The importance of knowledge of the support materials is so fundamental to the Safe Operation of Member Club Boats that the BSAC cannot, as a responsible organisation, support a situation where the correct reference and training materials exist and are not directly provided to members going through such training.

Fine - but i HAVE the manual already! - why do i need 2?!

The BSAC have an established policy over duplication of training materials. In such instances members are able to return the duplicate book (in undamaged/unused condition) for a refund providing they can provide evidence of the original purchase.
But why should i have to buy it and get a refund when there's just been a HUGE push to publicise this manual, ENCOURAGING me to buy it but with no warning that it will be in a SDC pack i'm likely to buy in the next 6months anyway...!

I don't think anyone is disputing the value of the manuals - indeed it seems like many of us have these manuals anyway - what i would question is the way this is being marketed. The idea of SDC's is surely to pass on knowledge build skills and increase safety and to encourage member take up - if we increase the price of the packs and add the effort involved to get a refund and return a book which i already have i would worry that people will think about other options.

What would be accepted as proof of previous purchase? I bought one of these books on ebay and one from BSAC, but i don't have either receipt as i bought these to read not to return! Could a DO sign to say i had them? Could a course director verify that i had them on the day? How long would it take to get a refund if everyone on the course needs one?!

You asked for our reactions and you are getting our reactions as BSAC members - if i was at HQ i would be concerned that everyone so far has disagreed with the idea, and be thinking again...it certainly requires more thought before launch?