Awards for All nonsense [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

Phil Butcher

14-10-2005, 14:46

Hi

Our BSAC club based in Scotland recently applied for lottery funding through Awards for All but was turned down. The reason for this was one of eligibility apparently which we were not informed of before we applied and is as follows:

"Your group is not affiliated to the governing body approved by
sportscotland for the sport you participate in. Your group is affiliated to the British Sub Aqua Club, Awards for All requires affiliation to the Scottish Sub Aqua Club. If your group would like to seek affiliation to the appropriate governing body, please contact Catherine Goodfellow at sportscotland on 0131 317 7200 for advice or go to ww.sportscotland.org.uk"

For the same reason ScotSAC clubs in England cannot receive lottery funding plus I've heard rumours that BSAC clubs in Wales have great difficulty even though there is no Welsh Sub Aqua Club to affiliate to!

I'm an instructor for our club and really am not that happy that we now may well have to leave BSAC behind and affiliate to SSAC for financial reasons. We have infomed BSAC about our situation but have had no advice or help forthcoming.

The crazy thing is we secured over ?3000 for a new compressor from Awards for All back in 2001 and apparently the rules have not changed since then!

Anyone else out there who have had similar problems or have any idea what we should do?

Cheers

Phil

Edward Haynes

14-10-2005, 16:22

Phil

My branch 'Fyne Divers' based over near Glasgow has this year received a grant for training.

I wasn't personally involved in the application, but I think you have to get ScotSAC to say your branch as an affiliate, just as ScotSAC Branches do in England. At least that's my understanding.

Edward
Diving officer
Fyne divers
BSAC 2923

Phil Butcher

16-10-2005, 11:45

Warren Izzett

16-10-2005, 13:29

:=Phil
:=
:=My branch 'Fyne Divers' based over near Glasgow has this year received a grant for training.
:=
:=I wasn't personally involved in the application, but I think you have to get ScotSAC to say your branch as an affiliate, just as ScotSAC Branches do in England. At least that's my understanding.
:=
:=Edward
:=Diving officer
:=Fyne divers
:=BSAC 2923

I'll contact ScotSAC next week and ask them about this. Thanks.

Phil
Secretary
Newton Stewart SAC
BSAC 1853

Hi Phil,

I'd be really interested to hear how you get on with this. Our branch is just about to apply to Awards for All and we had not heard about this issue.

Warren Izzett
Chairman
South Queensferry SAC

howard lewis

16-10-2005, 16:43

:Very interested to hear of your problem. Please inform us if you get any luck. We are currently awaiting the resurection of WASAC in the forlon hope of getting any funding in Wales. No club in Wales has received any funding for years. I would only advise you to forget BSAC as they have no interest in doing anything for us Celts as we should sort oursleves out. (P.S. yes I am paranoid and so would you be after listening to the drivel we have for the last few years.) As I say best of luck.=Hi

Our BSAC club based in Scotland recently applied for lottery funding through Awards for All but was turned down. The reason for this was one of eligibility apparently which we were not informed of before we applied and is as follows:

"Your group is not affiliated to the governing body approved by
sportscotland for the sport you participate in. Your group is affiliated to the British Sub Aqua Club, Awards for All requires affiliation to the Scottish Sub Aqua Club. If your group would like to seek affiliation to the appropriate governing body, please contact Catherine Goodfellow at sportscotland on 0131 317 7200 for advice or go to ww.sportscotland.org.uk"

For the same reason ScotSAC clubs in England cannot receive lottery funding plus I've heard rumours that BSAC clubs in Wales have great difficulty even though there is no Welsh Sub Aqua Club to affiliate to!

I'm an instructor for our club and really am not that happy that we now may well have to leave BSAC behind and affiliate to SSAC for financial reasons. We have infomed BSAC about our situation but have had no advice or help forthcoming.

The crazy thing is we secured over ?3000 for a new compressor from Awards for All back in 2001 and apparently the rules have not changed since then!

Anyone else out there who have had similar problems or have any idea what we should do?

Cheers

Phil

Phil Butcher

16-10-2005, 23:28

:=:=Phil
:=:=
:=:=My branch 'Fyne Divers' based over near Glasgow has this year received a grant for training.
:=:=
:=:=I wasn't personally involved in the application, but I think you have to get ScotSAC to say your branch as an affiliate, just as ScotSAC Branches do in England. At least that's my understanding.
:=:=
:=:=Edward
:=:=Diving officer
:=:=Fyne divers
:=:=BSAC 2923
:=
:=I'll contact ScotSAC next week and ask them about this. Thanks.
:=
:=Phil
:=Secretary
:=Newton Stewart SAC
:=BSAC 1853
:=

Hi Phil,

I'd be really interested to hear how you get on with this. Our branch is just about to apply to Awards for All and we had not heard about this issue.

Warren Izzett
Chairman
South Queensferry SAC

Hi Warren

I'll be sure and let you know if we get anywhere. It seems to me more BSAC clubs in Scotland need to know about this problem and a solution worked out for us all!

Phil

Phil Butcher

16-10-2005, 23:40

Hi
My real gripe lies with the people at sportscotland who have decided in their great wisdom that the 'British' Sub Aqua Club should not be recognised as a valid governing body for clubs in Scotland - it's all very political and does nobody any favours. I'll get back if we make any progress. Good luck to you in the future too.
Phil

:Very interested to hear of your problem. Please inform us if you get any luck. We are currently awaiting the resurection of WASAC in the forlon hope of getting any funding in Wales. No club in Wales has received any funding for years. I would only advise you to forget BSAC as they have no interest in doing anything for us Celts as we should sort oursleves out. (P.S. yes I am paranoid and so would you be after listening to the drivel we have for the last few years.) As I say best of luck.=Hi
:=
:=Our BSAC club based in Scotland recently applied for lottery funding through Awards for All but was turned down. The reason for this was one of eligibility apparently which we were not informed of before we applied and is as follows:
:=
:="Your group is not affiliated to the governing body approved by
:=sportscotland for the sport you participate in. Your group is affiliated to the British Sub Aqua Club, Awards for All requires affiliation to the Scottish Sub Aqua Club. If your group would like to seek affiliation to the appropriate governing body, please contact Catherine Goodfellow at sportscotland on 0131 317 7200 for advice or go to ww.sportscotland.org.uk"
:=
:=For the same reason ScotSAC clubs in England cannot receive lottery funding plus I've heard rumours that BSAC clubs in Wales have great difficulty even though there is no Welsh Sub Aqua Club to affiliate to!
:=
:=I'm an instructor for our club and really am not that happy that we now may well have to leave BSAC behind and affiliate to SSAC for financial reasons. We have infomed BSAC about our situation but have had no advice or help forthcoming.
:=
:=The crazy thing is we secured over ?3000 for a new compressor from Awards for All back in 2001 and apparently the rules have not changed since then!
:=
:=Anyone else out there who have had similar problems or have any idea what we should do?
:=
:=Cheers
:=
:=Phil

MarkA

17-10-2005, 12:57

Phil
I don't know if your situation is the same as in Wales but I suspect it is. The reason that the Scotish Sub Aqua Club is Recognised as the governing body sport Scotland is that they are partially funding them. There should be no reason why you cannot be members of both organisations though is there. At least you have a recognised body to join. I will however repeat Howards advise don't bother with the BSAC on this one as they have no interest in this situation just as they had no interest in Wales. They like to claim to be the governing body of the sport in the UK but that is as far as they are prepared to go

Hi Andy hope you are OK

Hi
My real gripe lies with the people at sportscotland who have decided in their great wisdom that the 'British' Sub Aqua Club should not be recognised as a valid governing body for clubs in Scotland - it's all very political and does nobody any favours. I'll get back if we make any progress. Good luck to you in the future too.
Phil

:=:Very interested to hear of your problem. Please inform us if you get any luck. We are currently awaiting the resurection of WASAC in the forlon hope of getting any funding in Wales. No club in Wales has received any funding for years. I would only advise you to forget BSAC as they have no interest in doing anything for us Celts as we should sort oursleves out. (P.S. yes I am paranoid and so would you be after listening to the drivel we have for the last few years.) As I say best of luck.=Hi
:=:=
:=:=Our BSAC club based in Scotland recently applied for lottery funding through Awards for All but was turned down. The reason for this was one of eligibility apparently which we were not informed of before we applied and is as follows:
:=:=
:=:="Your group is not affiliated to the governing body approved by
:=:=sportscotland for the sport you participate in. Your group is affiliated to the British Sub Aqua Club, Awards for All requires affiliation to the Scottish Sub Aqua Club. If your group would like to seek affiliation to the appropriate governing body, please contact Catherine Goodfellow at sportscotland on 0131 317 7200 for advice or go to ww.sportscotland.org.uk"
:=:=
:=:=For the same reason ScotSAC clubs in England cannot receive lottery funding plus I've heard rumours that BSAC clubs in Wales have great difficulty even though there is no Welsh Sub Aqua Club to affiliate to!
:=:=
:=:=I'm an instructor for our club and really am not that happy that we now may well have to leave BSAC behind and affiliate to SSAC for financial reasons. We have infomed BSAC about our situation but have had no advice or help forthcoming.
:=:=
:=:=The crazy thing is we secured over ?3000 for a new compressor from Awards for All back in 2001 and apparently the rules have not changed since then!
:=:=
:=:=Anyone else out there who have had similar problems or have any idea what we should do?
:=:=
:=:=Cheers
:=:=
:=:=Phil

Phil Butcher

17-10-2005, 14:14

Mark
I had noticed on the ScotSAC website that sportscotland had funded ScotSAC though to what extent I don't know. Am currently investigating joint affiliation...if that's possible.
Cheers
Phil

Phil
I don't know if your situation is the same as in Wales but I suspect it is. The reason that the Scotish Sub Aqua Club is Recognised as the governing body sport Scotland is that they are partially funding them. There should be no reason why you cannot be members of both organisations though is there. At least you have a recognised body to join. I will however repeat Howards advise don't bother with the BSAC on this one as they have no interest in this situation just as they had no interest in Wales. They like to claim to be the governing body of the sport in the UK but that is as far as they are prepared to go

Hi Andy hope you are OK

:=Hi
My real gripe lies with the people at sportscotland who have decided in their great wisdom that the 'British' Sub Aqua Club should not be recognised as a valid governing body for clubs in Scotland - it's all very political and does nobody any favours. I'll get back if we make any progress. Good luck to you in the future too.
:=Phil

:=:=:Very interested to hear of your problem. Please inform us if you get any luck. We are currently awaiting the resurection of WASAC in the forlon hope of getting any funding in Wales. No club in Wales has received any funding for years. I would only advise you to forget BSAC as they have no interest in doing anything for us Celts as we should sort oursleves out. (P.S. yes I am paranoid and so would you be after listening to the drivel we have for the last few years.) As I say best of luck.

:=:=:=
Hi

Our BSAC club based in Scotland recently applied for lottery funding through Awards for All but was turned down. The reason for this was one of eligibility apparently which we were not informed of before we applied and is as follows:
:=:=:=
"Your group is not affiliated to the governing body approved by
sportscotland for the sport you participate in. Your group is affiliated to the British Sub Aqua Club, Awards for All requires affiliation to the Scottish Sub Aqua Club. If your group would like to seek affiliation to the appropriate governing body, please contact Catherine Goodfellow at sportscotland on 0131 317 7200 for advice or go to ww.sportscotland.org.uk"

For the same reason ScotSAC clubs in England cannot receive lottery funding plus I've heard rumours that BSAC clubs in Wales have great difficulty even though there is no Welsh Sub Aqua Club to affiliate to!

I'm an instructor for our club and really am not that happy that we now may well have to leave BSAC behind and affiliate to SSAC for financial reasons. We have infomed BSAC about our situation but have had no advice or help forthcoming.
:=:=:=
The crazy thing is we secured over ?3000 for a new compressor from Awards for All back in 2001 and apparently the rules have not changed since then!
:=:=:=
Anyone else out there who have had similar problems or have any idea what we should do?

Cheers

Phil

budgy

27-10-2005, 11:41

Hi Phil, Maybe it's better if you make an application through your local sports council. Improving opportunities of participation for youth and the economically disadvantaged is good, paying for maintenance bad.

MarkA

27-10-2005, 11:58

You Still have to be a member of what the local Sports council see as "the Governing Body"
In England you are supported by the BSAC it not so easy in Scotland and Wales
Our Application has been in for 4 years come December. No problems with the paper work as it was compiled with the assistance of the local authority sports development office. What we do not have (so far) is a Governing Body that they will recognise. The BSAC does not fit that criteria despite their claims to be "The governing body for the sport in the UK"

M

Edward Haynes

27-10-2005, 12:33

Andy

Budgy is in Scotland and has successfully, this year, got grants; he does know what he's talking about.

Edward

MarkA

27-10-2005, 14:35

Andy

Budgy is in Scotland and has successfully, this year, got grants; he does know what he's talking about.

Edward

Edward
I Don't know about Scotland but Wales is Definately one Big NO NO for grants and the BSAC (apart from the local guys of course).
If you think its any different then I am sorry to say it, but its you who does not know what he is talking about.
Mark

benpanter

27-10-2005, 17:00

:=Andy
:=
:=Budgy is in Scotland and has successfully, this year, got grants; he does know what he's talking about.
:=
:=Edward

Edward
I Don't know about Scotland but Wales is Definately one Big NO NO for grants and the BSAC (apart from the local guys of course).
If you think its any different then I am sorry to say it, but its you who does not know what he is talking about.
Mark

Mark, in Edward's defense the situation in Scotland *is* different.

The NGB for the sport in Wales was dormant for a long while and is now being helped onto its feet (all be it slowly). The NGB for the sport in Scotland is a going concern (SSAC) and is active. If you check the rest of the thread E's BSAC club, in Scotland, achieved funding last year.

It would be unfair to extend whatever criticism you have for the Welsh governing body to SSAC - they're a great bunch and there are good links between clubs.

howard lewis

28-10-2005, 08:30

Ben I don't think Mark was criticising the Welsh governing body.
Indeed he was one of only 7 or 8 of us who attended the last meeting they held. (cup final day in May).The people who are trying to resurect WASAC are all working with the best of intentions with little or no support off people like myself. This for a large variety of reasons.(work, past experience or whatever).They are also a good "bunch" but are all like I suspect Scotland non paid part time enthusiasts. I think the point that gets me personally is that until WASAC can do the hard work of virtually re-starting an organisation (used to run galas, conference, rapid run, collate tidal information etc.) we are left abandoned of any chance of obtaining grants.If we were members of the SAA who to my knowledge do not pay what I pay to BSAC we would be ok. (in England). So my question is to anyone and I'm sure there are plenty "Keith" who will answer why AM I different. (not including the large visible chip on my shoulder) The BSAC have full time paid officials and are the governing body for the sport in the UK so please understand our continued frustration.

:

=:=:=Andy
:=:=
:=:=Budgy is in Scotland and has successfully, this year, got grants; he does know what he's talking about.
:=:=
:=:=Edward
:=
:=Edward
:=I Don't know about Scotland but Wales is Definately one Big NO NO for grants and the BSAC (apart from the local guys of course).
:=If you think its any different then I am sorry to say it, but its you who does not know what he is talking about.
:=Mark

Mark, in Edward's defense the situation in Scotland *is* different.

The NGB for the sport in Wales was dormant for a long while and is now being helped onto its feet (all be it slowly). The NGB for the sport in Scotland is a going concern (SSAC) and is active. If you check the rest of the thread E's BSAC club, in Scotland, achieved funding last year.

It would be unfair to extend whatever criticism you have for the Welsh governing body to SSAC - they're a great bunch and there are good links between clubs.

MarkA

28-10-2005, 09:27

Ben
As I said in my previous contributions, I do not know what the situation is is Scotland but assume it is similar to Wales.

I certainly have not been critical of either the Scotish Sub Aqua Club or The Welsh Association of Sub Aqua Clubs, in fact I applaude the current WASAC commitee for attempting the difficult job of ressurecting wat was a dead organisation and I am aware of the many obsitcles that they face. I was only commenting that there is a similar situation in Wales to Scotland where to achieve grant funding you need to be a member of the organisation that is recognised by the local Sports Council. There are obvious differences though in such that the Scotish sub Aqua club is Active but for Several years WASAC has been dormant.
If I were to be critical of anyone it would be the BSAC who have for a long time buried their heads in the sands and not supported their Celtic members interests although will tell you different

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

28-10-2005, 09:45

If we were members of the SAA who to my knowledge do not pay what I pay to BSAC we would be ok. (in England). So my question is to anyone and I'm sure there are plenty "Keith" who will answer why AM I different. (not including the large visible chip on my shoulder) The BSAC have full time paid officials and are the governing body for the sport in the UK so please understand our continued frustration.

Hi Howard

Yes you would be "OK" in England - because in England we work with Sport England and spent many years working with the SAA to reach the situation where they were independant of us for grant applications.

You are "different" becuase of the different political situation in Wales, it's that simple. The Welsh Assembly and Sport Wales will only talk to a Welsh GB, no matter how many paid officals the BSAC or any other agency has we cannot alter that political fact. If you wish to change that then raise the issue with the Welsh Assembly and/or your local MP, the political situation is nothing to do with the BSAC.

This subject has been done to death before on this forum and on the BSAC Wales SmartGroup, the solution is very, very simple but I'll say it again - the solution is in the hands of the Welsh divers. You have a recognised structure set up, you have a Welsh GB to liaise with - it's called WASAC. BSAC volunteers (and others) with the support of BSAC nationally have put a lot of time and effort into getting WASAC going again, WASAC is operational again.

So WASAC needs the help and the support of the Welsh divers, without that help and support the problem is not going to go away. The solution is in the hands of the Welsh divers, nobody can do it for you, nobody but the Welsh can help you with the political situation in Wales.

Kinds Regards

Keith L

MarkA

28-10-2005, 11:09

howard lewis

28-10-2005, 12:59

:= If we were members of the SAA who to my knowledge do not pay what I pay to BSAC we would be ok. (in England). So my question is to anyone and I'm sure there are plenty "Keith" who will answer why AM I different. (not including the large visible chip on my shoulder) The BSAC have full time paid officials and are the governing body for the sport in the UK so please understand our continued frustration.

Hi Howard

Yes you would be "OK" in England - because in England we work with Sport England and spent many years working with the SAA to reach the situation where they were independant of us for grant applications.

You are "different" becuase of the different political situation in Wales, it's that simple. The Welsh Assembly and Sport Wales will only talk to a Welsh GB, no matter how many paid officals the BSAC or any other agency has we cannot alter that political fact. If you wish to change that then raise the issue with the Welsh Assembly and/or your local MP, the political situation is nothing to do with the BSAC.

This subject has been done to death before on this forum and on the BSAC Wales SmartGroup, the solution is very, very simple but I'll say it again - the solution is in the hands of the Welsh divers. You have a recognised structure set up, you have a Welsh GB to liaise with - it's called WASAC. BSAC volunteers (and others) with the support of BSAC nationally have put a lot of time and effort into getting WASAC going again, WASAC is operational again.

So WASAC needs the help and the support of the Welsh divers, without that help and support the problem is not going to go away. The solution is in the hands of the Welsh divers, nobody can do it for you, nobody but the Welsh can help you with the political situation in Wales.

Kinds Regards

Keith L

Keith thanks for the reply. Again I seem unable to get my point over. As a fully paid up member of Plaid Cymru and Meibon Glywndwr I will glady debate politics with you but CERTAINLY not on this forum.To my informed knowledge the question of BSAC being the governing body for Wales has never been raised with the WAG. What if the volunteer divers in Wales do not want to work in WASAC but just want to dive and be able to apply for the same things that their fellow divers across the border can. Also please can I have the name of the purely voluntary organisation that supplied all the necessary paperwork to the national lottery in England.(an immense task as you have already pointed out)We seem to be being asked to re-invent the wheel surely BSAC has all the necessary things in place?. The NATIONAL lottery not the English lottery.P.S. WASAC is not operational again due to the high work load required to re-set up a deffunct organisation. There are no old members on the new committee.The new members have a lot to do and as I said earlier I for one am not able / prepared to help. I only want the help and support of BSAC that I think we deserve as fully paid up members.Yes It is being done to death but surely the time this has been going on only re-inforces the fact that WASAC s not up and running to the necessary degree.

Nigel Hewitt

28-10-2005, 15:03

As a fully paid up member of Plaid Cymru and Meibon Glywndwr

But surely you realise that these regulations are not set to inconvenience Welsh divers but to inconvenience the Imperialist English 'Governing bodies'. They may fail but it is the principle that counts.

Sorry: I just did a four day tour of Edward the First's castles in North Wales. If ever there was a piece of civil engineering that was designed to send the message "Up yours Owen" these are it. The poor old boy would probably be most miffed to know that all that money he spent is these days owned by Cadw, the Welsh Heritage body.

MarkA

28-10-2005, 15:39

:=As a fully paid up member of Plaid Cymru and Meibon Glywndwr

But surely you realise that these regulations are not set to inconvenience Welsh divers but to inconvenience the Imperialist English 'Governing bodies'. They may fail but it is the principle that counts.

Sorry: I just did a four day tour of Edward the First's castles in North Wales. If ever there was a piece of civil engineering that was designed to send the message "Up yours Owen" these are it. The poor old boy would probably be most miffed to know that all that money he spent is these days owned by Cadw, the Welsh Heritage body.

of course it was not his money that he spent it was all the cash he had plundered

Nigel Hewitt

28-10-2005, 16:05

of course it was not his money that he spent it was all the cash he had plundered.

A late 1200's monarch? That goes without saying.
Sorted the Welsh out and made a good start on the Scots.

Didn't do much diving though so he lucked out.

David Walker

28-10-2005, 17:07

To my informed knowledge the question of BSAC being the governing body for Wales has never been raised with the WAG.

So basically you want BSAC to go and visit the Welsh Assembly and say "please can we be the governing body for Wales too"? The only problem of course would be if the Welsh said no... in which case there's not much more BSAC could do - take it up with your MP!

David

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

28-10-2005, 20:21

Hi Howard

To my informed knowledge the question of BSAC being the governing body for Wales has never been raised with the WAG. What if the volunteer divers in Wales do not want to work in WASAC but just want to dive and be able to apply for the same things that their fellow divers across the border can.

To the best of my knowledge it was initially raised way back, the answer was ?no ? we will only deal with a Welsh GB?, which is how WASAC came about in the first place. Just as you are so vehemently anti-WASAC there are also divers in Wales who are vehemently pro-WASAC and do not want an English body deciding what is best for Wales. Two ways of looking at it Howard!

Also please can I have the name of the purely voluntary organisation that supplied all the necessary paperwork to the national lottery in England.(an immense task as you have already pointed out)We seem to be being asked to re-invent the wheel surely BSAC has all the necessary things in place?.

That would have been the BSAC who did all of that work. It was also the BSAC who assisted ScotSAC with their paperwork and applications, we continue to work very closely with our friends in Scotland. Exactly that offer was made to the original WASAC, that offer of course extends to the current WASAC. As a national organisation we would be delighted to help our Welsh members with this type of stuff, you?ve only got to ask. But due to the political situation in Wales we cannot do it for you.

There are no old members on the new committee. The new members have a lot to do and as I said earlier I for one am not able / prepared to help. I only want the help and support of BSAC that I think we deserve as fully paid up members.

I do understand if you are unable to personally assist with WASAC, but only WASAC can do this and they have a flying head start as they are already recognised as the GB in Wales. The support that you are quite rightly entitled to is there for you Howard, it is there for you via WASAC because the BSAC supports WASAC and will assist in any way that it can. In other words you are in exactly the same position as our Scottish members, we provide support via ScotSAC because the political situation in Scotland is similar to that in Wales.

We cannot just make it all go away for you, you are asking for something that is within the remit of your MP and not the BSAC. I say again ? the solution is in the hands of the Welsh divers.

Kind Regards

Keith L

markA

28-10-2005, 21:49

:=of course it was not his money that he spent it was all the cash he had plundered.

A late 1200's monarch? That goes without saying.
Sorted the Welsh out and made a good start on the Scots.

Didn't do much diving though so he lucked out.

You might say he was another governing body who didn't give a toss for the Scots or the Welsh only what they can contribute

markA

28-10-2005, 21:52

:=To my informed knowledge the question of BSAC being the governing body for Wales has never been raised with the WAG.

So basically you want BSAC to go and visit the Welsh Assembly and say "please can we be the governing body for Wales too:=David

YES I Do
because thats what they claim to be anyway
and they take my money don't they

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

28-10-2005, 23:45

:=So basically you want BSAC to go and visit the Welsh Assembly and say "please can we be the governing body for Wales too:=David

YES I Do
because thats what they claim to be anyway
and they take my money don't they

Dear Mark

See my reply to Howard. Asking for an English body to wander into the Welsh Assembly and start telling them how to run Wales is completly ridiculous. The claim that the BSAC is taking your money and doing nothing is completely false.

Please stop hijacking any funding topics for your own personal rants, we've heard them all before and constantly correcting your misinformation has become tiresome.

Kind Regards

Keith L

David Walker

29-10-2005, 11:57

YES I Do
because thats what they claim to be anyway
and they take my money don't they

Taking your money is absolutely nothing to do with being the governing body - they are two entirely separate functions of BSAC.

As the governing body, BSAC represent the interests of all divers in this country, whether they are BSAC members or not.

As a training/diving organisation, BSAC has members worldwide, who pay fees to BSAC for services completely unrelated to them being a governing body.

I think your argument has run its course - you're clearly going round in circles now, don't understand what BSAC is, and should go back and talk to the Welsh sports council thing about your problems. They are in a position to help, BSAC it would seem aren't!

David

Philip Smith

29-10-2005, 12:01

Asking for an English body to wander into the Welsh Assembly and start telling them how to run Wales is completly ridiculous.

The BSAC is most certainly _not_ "an English body"! If that was BSAC's approach in Wales, no wonder negotiations with the Sports Council failed. One of BSAC's roles is as the recognised governing body for the sport in England, but it is "a" governing body for branches throughout the UK.

This sport, like many others, has several bona fide "governing bodies" that clubs or individuals can affiliate to. The issue with government or lottery funding issue is that the national sports agencies seem to recognise only one governing body per sport (with some exceptions), presumably either for administrative convenience or from a bias towards competitive sports, which require a single authority to set the rules of competition. I thought the situation in Scotland was more enlightened, but this thread indicates perhaps not. Unless the GBs can collectively persuade the national sports agencies to accept that there is more than one legitimate governing body for sub-aqua in each of the home nations, the problem will persist and flags of convenience, like WASAC, will be required.

Philip Smith

Philip Smith

29-10-2005, 12:16

There are obvious differences though in such that the Scotish sub Aqua club is Active but for Several years WASAC has been dormant.

A major difference is that the SSAC is a members' organisation, analogous to BSAC, whereas WASAC is an association of branches/clubs affiliated to separate members' organisations, including BSAC and SAA. WASAC should therefore directly represent the interests of (some?) BSAC branches in Wales, whereas SSAC only represents the interests of BSAC branches in Scotland indirectly through agreement and reciprocity with BSAC (there is a small number of SSAC branches in England, but many BSAC branches in Scotland).

Philip Smith

markA

29-10-2005, 15:16

:=Asking for an English body to wander into the Welsh Assembly and start telling them how to run Wales is completly ridiculous.

The BSAC is most certainly _not_ "an English body"! If that was BSAC's approach in Wales, no wonder negotiations with the Sports Council failed. One of BSAC's roles is as the recognised governing body for the sport in England, but it is "a" governing body for branches throughout the UK.

This sport, like many others, has several bona fide "governing bodies" that clubs or individuals can affiliate to. The issue with government or lottery funding issue is that the national sports agencies seem to recognise only one governing body per sport (with some exceptions), presumably either for administrative convenience or from a bias towards competitive sports, which require a single authority to set the rules of competition. I thought the situation in Scotland was more enlightened, but this thread indicates perhaps not. Unless the GBs can collectively persuade the national sports agencies to accept that there is more than one legitimate governing body for sub-aqua in each of the home nations, the problem will persist and flags of convenience, like WASAC, will be required.

Philip Smith

At Last
Someone is talking sensse

Thanks Phillip

markA

29-10-2005, 15:32

:=:=So basically you want BSAC to go and visit the Welsh Assembly and say "please can we be the governing body for Wales too:=David

:=YES I Do
:=because thats what they claim to be anyway
:=and they take my money don't they

Dear Mark

See my reply to Howard. Asking for an English body to wander into the Welsh Assembly and start telling them how to run Wales is completly ridiculous. The claim that the BSAC is taking your money and doing nothing is completely false.

Please stop hijacking any funding topics for your own personal rants, we've heard them all before and constantly correcting your misinformation has become tiresome.

Kind Regards

Keith L

Keith
I am not hijacking any threads
I atarted explaining that there is a similar situation in other part of the british isles and thats all
It only progressed from there because of others comments

Secondly the BRITISH sub aqua club is NOT an English body, hence the name and I and every other member outside england am just as much a member as everyone in it. And its the perception that it is English by the English is why we have our little rant.

As for being mis informed, keep telling yourself it often but it still will not make the truth will it

No doubt hear from you soon

M

howard lewis

31-10-2005, 08:29

Keith you say that the question was raised way back. Way back there was no WAG and no devolution. You also say in this thread and in a previous one that we would not want an "English" organisation dealing with us. I could forgive one slip up but to say it twice shows a deep seated feeling by yourself that BSAC is "English". You also accuse me of being anti WASAC. You know this is not true. I am the chairman of a club that consistently sent more people to conference year after year than any other club in Wales. We have always since "way back" had a member of our club on the WASAC committee. We held the last Gala. Three out of the 7 or 8 people (total number including the chairman who was the only committee member there) who were in the AGM were from our club.I could go on! I am not anti WASAC but do appreciate that their work load is to much. Please also bear in mind WASAC is not just BSAC.
I asked you for the name of the purely voluntary organisation that done the work for England. Your reply was BSAC A purely voluntary organisation!! I sincerely hope WASAC is up and running soon but we have now been many years without representation and no end appears in site. And as for us hi-jacking your site what is it for if not to air our opinions?

Hi Howard

:=To my informed knowledge the question of BSAC being the governing body for Wales has never been raised with the WAG. What if the volunteer divers in Wales do not want to work in WASAC but just want to dive and be able to apply for the same things that their fellow divers across the border can.

To the best of my knowledge it was initially raised way back, the answer was ?no ? we will only deal with a Welsh GB?, which is how WASAC came about in the first place. Just as you are so vehemently anti-WASAC there are also divers in Wales who are vehemently pro-WASAC and do not want an English body deciding what is best for Wales. Two ways of looking at it Howard!

:=Also please can I have the name of the purely voluntary organisation that supplied all the necessary paperwork to the national lottery in England.(an immense task as you have already pointed out)We seem to be being asked to re-invent the wheel surely BSAC has all the necessary things in place?.

That would have been the BSAC who did all of that work. It was also the BSAC who assisted ScotSAC with their paperwork and applications, we continue to work very closely with our friends in Scotland. Exactly that offer was made to the original WASAC, that offer of course extends to the current WASAC. As a national organisation we would be delighted to help our Welsh members with this type of stuff, you?ve only got to ask. But due to the political situation in Wales we cannot do it for you.

:=There are no old members on the new committee. The new members have a lot to do and as I said earlier I for one am not able / prepared to help. I only want the help and support of BSAC that I think we deserve as fully paid up members.

I do understand if you are unable to personally assist with WASAC, but only WASAC can do this and they have a flying head start as they are already recognised as the GB in Wales. The support that you are quite rightly entitled to is there for you Howard, it is there for you via WASAC because the BSAC supports WASAC and will assist in any way that it can. In other words you are in exactly the same position as our Scottish members, we provide support via ScotSAC because the political situation in Scotland is similar to that in Wales.

We cannot just make it all go away for you, you are asking for something that is within the remit of your MP and not the BSAC. I say again ? the solution is in the hands of the Welsh divers.

Kind Regards

Keith L

Nigel Hewitt

31-10-2005, 09:15

>>>of course it was not his money that he spent it was all the cash he had plundered.

>>A late 1200's monarch? That goes without saying.
>>Sorted the Welsh out and made a good start on the Scots.

>You might say he was another governing body who didn't give a toss for the Scots or the Welsh only what they can contribute

Maybe that should be the gameplan. Change our name to The English Sub Aqua Club, nuke the Cockburn Centre, ignore the Welsh as usual and establish English rule from sea to sea (Irish to North).

Then we make demands for 'living room' and brush aside the SAA before marching on PADI at Bristol. This will provoke global conflict and who knows which side the CMAS will take?

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

31-10-2005, 20:31

Maybe that should be the gameplan. Change our name to The English Sub Aqua Club, nuke the Cockburn Centre, ignore the Welsh as usual and establish English rule from sea to sea (Irish to North).

Then we make demands for 'living room' and brush aside the SAA before marching on PADI at Bristol. This will provoke global conflict and who knows which side the CMAS will take?

I thought I told you to keep my Council proposal private Nigel :-)

K

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

31-10-2005, 20:49

...You also say in this thread and in a previous one that we would not want an "English" organisation dealing with us. I could forgive one slip up but to say it twice shows a deep seated feeling by yourself that BSAC is "English"...

Dear Howard

You are completely and utterly misinterpreting my response, I only used the term "English" because that is the term that has been used when some Welsh divers have spoken to me about this matter. The term "English" comes from them, my personal view is that as the British Sub Aqua Club we should assist our Welsh members in exactly the same way we assist all of our members.

I am aware that you and many others put a lot of time into the old WASAC, the new WASAC also needs support. I took your comments in <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/8542.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/8542.html</a> where you state "...with little or no support off people like myself. This for a large variety of reasons.(work, past experience or whatever)." as being that you could not and would not support the new WASAC. My apologies if that was not the case.

Kind Regards

Keith L

atty17

01-11-2005, 05:38

:=YES I Do
:=because thats what they claim to be anyway
:=and they take my money don't they

Taking your money is absolutely nothing to do with being the governing body - they are two entirely separate functions of BSAC.

As the governing body, BSAC represent the interests of all divers in this country, whether they are BSAC members or not.

As a training/diving organisation, BSAC has members

worldwide, who pay fees to BSAC for services completely

unrelated to them being a governing body.

I think your argument has run its course - you're clearly going round in circles now, don't understand what BSAC is, and should go back and talk to the Welsh sports council thing about your problems. They are in a position to help, BSAC it would seem aren't!

David
As a current member of the B.S.A.C. am i at liberty to ask keith or any council member how much lottery funded money has been allocated to individual bsac member clubs within the last 5 years?
just out of interest.
Are the B.S.A.C as an organisation funded in any way by lottery funding?

Nigel Hewitt

01-11-2005, 07:48

I thought I told you to keep my Council proposal private Nigel :-)

That one? I thought it was the other....

Never mind.

Tony Dwyer

01-11-2005, 15:32

who knows which side the CMAS will take?

Ze will surrender nes pas?

:>

markA

01-11-2005, 16:28

:=...You also say in this thread and in a previous one that we would not want an "English" organisation dealing with us. I could forgive one slip up but to say it twice shows a deep seated feeling by yourself that BSAC is "English"...

Dear Howard

You are completely and utterly misinterpreting my response, I only used the term "English" because that is the term that has been used when some Welsh divers have spoken to me about this matter. The term "English" comes from them,

Keith
do you happen to know who these "Welsh Divers" are as I also would like to talk to them

If others are talking to you on this matter then its not just a few wingers as some people would suggest

If these people had suggested to you that the BSAC is English as you say would it not be better to correct them instead of joining in with their misconception.

my personal view is that as the British Sub Aqua Club we should assist our Welsh members in exactly the same way we assist all of our members.

I am aware that you and many others put a lot of time into the old WASAC, the new WASAC also needs support. I took your comments in <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/8542.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/8542.html</a> where you state "...with little or no support off people like myself. This for a large variety of reasons.(work, past experience or whatever)." as being that you could not and would not support the new WASAC. My apologies if that was not the case.

Kind Regards

Keith L

David Walker

01-11-2005, 18:13

As a current member of the B.S.A.C. am i at liberty to ask keith or any council member how much lottery funded money has been allocated to individual bsac member clubs within the last 5 years?

Lottery money that individual branches receive has nothing much to do with BSAC, generally. Our club for example is also related to our University Student's Union, and so any money we receive from them or anyone else is as much related to that affiliation as the BSAC link. Being BSAC affiliated may look good on the application, but isn't the sole factor.

David

Phil Butcher

04-11-2005, 15:42

I'd just like to update everyone on the position, as I see it, here in Scotland following the last few weeks of activity.

The short version is that; Awards for All have advised us that an error was made when processing our application and in fact we ARE eligible to apply for lottery funds. We only managed to find this out by eventually speaking to someone higher up in the organisation. We have now been encouraged to submit a new application!

In the last few weeks our club has been talking to BSAC about this matter and in turn they have been talking to ScotSAC and Sportscotland. It would seem that through the above discussions the matter has been resolved so that ScotSAC support BSAC club funding applications and vice-versa for ScotSAC clubs in England. This agreement may have been in place in the past but Sportscotland may not have been aware or up to speed on it.

We now intend to submit our new application in the next few weeks in the hope that all goes smoothly. Thanks to all those that got involved and represented our interests in this matter.

Cheers

Phil
Secretary
Newton Stewart SAC (BSAC 1853)

:Very interested to hear of your problem. Please inform us if you get any luck. We are currently awaiting the resurection of WASAC in the forlon hope of getting any funding in Wales. No club in Wales has received any funding for years. I would only advise you to forget BSAC as they have no interest in doing anything for us Celts as we should sort oursleves out. (P.S. yes I am paranoid and so would you be after listening to the drivel we have for the last few years.) As I say best of luck.=Hi
:=
:=Our BSAC club based in Scotland recently applied for lottery funding through Awards for All but was turned down. The reason for this was one of eligibility apparently which we were not informed of before we applied and is as follows:
:=
:="Your group is not affiliated to the governing body approved by
:=sportscotland for the sport you participate in. Your group is affiliated to the British Sub Aqua Club, Awards for All requires affiliation to the Scottish Sub Aqua Club. If your group would like to seek affiliation to the appropriate governing body, please contact Catherine Goodfellow at sportscotland on 0131 317 7200 for advice or go to ww.sportscotland.org.uk"
:=
:=For the same reason ScotSAC clubs in England cannot receive lottery funding plus I've heard rumours that BSAC clubs in Wales have great difficulty even though there is no Welsh Sub Aqua Club to affiliate to!
:=
:=I'm an instructor for our club and really am not that happy that we now may well have to leave BSAC behind and affiliate to SSAC for financial reasons. We have infomed BSAC about our situation but have had no advice or help forthcoming.
:=
:=The crazy thing is we secured over ?3000 for a new compressor from Awards for All back in 2001 and apparently the rules have not changed since then!
:=
:=Anyone else out there who have had similar problems or have any idea what we should do?
:=
:=Cheers
:=
:=Phil

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

04-11-2005, 16:00

gareth webber

04-11-2005, 17:00

Good luck with the application!

terryh

04-11-2005, 17:21

Thanks very much for the update Phil, glad you're sorted. I thought you should have been OK, I know that we've been working with ScotSAC and SportScotland for many years.

Keith, dont you think its about time we stopped all this
nonsense?
Why should you have to come on here and justify something that
BSAC is already doing behind the scenes?

Maybe because nobody actually knows you are doing it!

How about a page on member services explaining Lottery funding
and what happens in Scotland and Wales. How about adding the
right contact details for all the parties. What about having
one point of contact at HQ or at least an email route towards
someone who knows how to approach this and can awnser questions.
You could even add updates and any clubs that were successful.

Or you could do the usual and ignore this post and the whole
thread and in about another years time another club will be on
here talking about the same problem, with an equal ammount of
wasted effort and misinformation.

BTW this isnt directed at you personally (you cant do
everything), but a system (or heirachy) that fail to grasp the
basics of simple management.

TerryH

markA

04-11-2005, 18:09

Phil
Glad to hear you are sorted and good luck with your application.

budgy

07-11-2005, 14:45

If you want help writing the new application let me know.

Nigel Hewitt

07-11-2005, 15:19

How about a page on...

Oh give the guy a break. He's doing ten jobs at once already and he has to squeeze in making a living somewhere. The whole site (three sites?) needs a rework as it is running out of control already so finding things is a matter of word searches at times.

Also I know he works people to death, he did it for me, but we quite like to old codger so we'd like to have him around a bit longer.

matt

07-11-2005, 17:25

Couldn't agree more Nigel. That's one of the problems of the volunteer system. Never a shortage of good ideas, always a shortage of volunteers to do em.

terryh

07-11-2005, 21:55

:=How about a page on...

Oh give the guy a break. He's doing ten jobs at once already and he has to squeeze in making a living somewhere. The whole site (three sites?) needs a rework as it is running out of control already so finding things is a matter of word searches at times.

Also I know he works people to death, he did it for me, but we quite like to old codger so we'd like to have him around a bit longer.

Err we know, that's why I didnt have a go at Keith.
It's an endemic "BSAC" management problem, that continues to
waste effort by all parties, when a simple "fix" would suffice.

TerryH

Nigel Hewitt

07-11-2005, 22:19

Err we know, that's why I didnt have a go at Keith.
It's an endemic "BSAC" management problem, that continues to
waste effort by all parties, when a simple "fix" would suffice.

The problem is that these Forums are a tiny, tiny minority of BSAC and although they might be important to Keith we just hardly feature in the big scheme of things. 50% of this forum is probably 10 people so we already get a disproportionate share of the lime light.... not that I'm complaining.

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

08-11-2005, 08:20

Keith, dont you think its about time we stopped all this nonsense? Why should you have to come on here and justify something that BSAC is already doing behind the scenes?

A very valid point Terry, a bit off topic for this thread, maybe a new one on the new forums a bit later? :-)

I agree with you, it should be there, it should be provided by HQ Technical who are in charge of the Membership Services part of the site. It is however the old problem of resources, webmasters and people able to do the work.

I'm going to ask you to give us three or four months on this. Why? Because a big project has just started at HQ to completely replace the .org site with a brand new CMS driven system. This will allow us to diversify the management of information on the site and give the people who know about such things the ability to do it themselves via a web interface.

So we're increasing our web resources by diversification, once we've done that we should have the capacity to react to issues such as this very quickly and keep things much more up-to-date. This project is going to involve a compete rewrite and review of everything that is currently on .org.

Probably not the answer you wanted Terry, but hope that helps.

Regards

Keith L