Response to Mike, Keith et al.

[terryh]

Following on from the posts below and some of the surprising
responses ....................

I am by no means computer literate, but using web-based
templates and about 20mins (including writing the copy),
I knocked this up.

<a href="http://www.bsac1624.co.uk/Access.shtml" >http://www.bsac1624.co.uk/Access.shtml</a>

Why on earth using a generic BSAC template, cant each group,
section, team etc. do the same.

If fora is too adversarial for some, then awnser questions, but
in the controlled enviroment of a closed website.

With the absolute wealth of knowledge out there, I cannot
see why its so difficult to engage the membership using such wildly availble tools.

TerryH

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Hi Terry

OK, there's a few glitches in the page but I can certainly see what you're getting at - and that is very similar to where we want to go and where we're heading. The principle is good, it's that type of simple layout with 'Latest News' etc. that we're after.

To a limited extent we already do what you are suggesting, HQ and others have such templates and are directly responsible for various sections of the BSAC web sites, things like the Travel Club already run on this template/diverse authorship principle.

But the limiting factor is technology, the people who I want to be able to update the sites are not computer litterate, they wouldn't know what an HTML editor was, FTP would completely baffle them! It needs to be much simpler than that.

Which is where CMS systems come in. Are you familiar with simple CMS systems such as Mambo, E107 et al? If you've ever used one of them then you'll know what I mean. Those are entry level Open Source systems (but VERY good, we're thinking of using them for some regional sites), we are currently tendering for a corporate level CMS for our big sites.

So I agree with you Terry but I want to do it a different way, the visualisation you have suggested is good, it's just a matter of how it is achieved. Our current web server wont support such CMS systems, our new one will.

So, as usual Terry - we're onto it :-)

Regards

Keith L

[terryh]

Hi Terry

OK, there's a few glitches in the page but I can certainly see what you're getting at - and that is very similar to where we want to go and where we're heading. The principle is good, it's that type of simple layout with 'Latest News' etc. that we're after.

To a limited extent we already do what you are suggesting, HQ and others have such templates and are directly responsible for various sections of the BSAC web sites, things like the Travel Club already run on this template/diverse authorship principle.

But the limiting factor is technology, the people who I want to be able to update the sites are not computer litterate, they wouldn't know what an HTML editor was, FTP would completely baffle them! It needs to be much simpler than that.

Which is where CMS systems come in. Are you familiar with simple CMS systems such as Mambo, E107 et al? If you've ever used one of them then you'll know what I mean. Those are entry level Open Source systems (but VERY good, we're thinking of using them for some regional sites), we are currently tendering for a corporate level CMS for our big sites.

So I agree with you Terry but I want to do it a different way, the visualisation you have suggested is good, it's just a matter of how it is achieved. Our current web server wont support such CMS systems, our new one will.

So, as usual Terry - we're onto it :-)

Regards

Keith L

Hi Keith. Nice prompt reply as usual.
I'm not familar with the systems you refer to, but thats
more operational detail rather than content.

What I'm after is each particular team or group who have
specific responsibilities to start talking to the membership.
If the main website is too busy or fora too negative, then
a zoned approach would be the way to go.

Take this mockup as an example. Instead of a disjointed and
time consuming trawl through bits of website, NDC reports
and god knows what. I can go onto one link from the main
and get the latest and difinative info from the very people
doing the work and making the decisions. Because it is only
them (plus a webmaster just in case) who have the abilty to
change this part, there is no danger of corrupting the main
BSAC site.

As there will now be few personalities involved, we have direct
contact and can put faces to names. More interaction and
engaging of the membership.

TerryH

[Vic]

&gt; I knocked this up.
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://www.bsac1624.co.uk/Access.shtml" >http://www.bsac1624.co.uk/Access.shtml</a>

You might want to play with that - it's broken. It tries to load files from your hard drive (which, obviously, aren't accessible to the rest of us).

HTH

Vic.

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

I'm not familar with the systems you refer to, but thats
more operational detail rather than content.

It's the "operational detail" that's the killer Terry! I want the web sites to be updatable by somebody who knows nothing about HTML, FTP and the like but can use a simple browser interface. That is what CMS systems do, have a look at <a href="http://www.mamboserver.com/" >http://www.mamboserver.com/</a> for a popular one (not good enough for our main sites), then you'll see what I mean.

What I'm after is each particular team or group who have
specific responsibilities to start talking to the membership.
If the main website is too busy or fora too negative, then
a zoned approach would be the way to go.

EXACTLY! That's our aim as well, but the people who we want to involve need a nice, simple way of having that involvement - hence the need for a CMS system to give them that.

We're talkin the same language here Terry, we're after the same things, the work to achieve those aims is well underway. The only place we differ is in HOW, rather than struggle expanding what we do already we're going for the new solution of a CMS. Our aim is to give the people we need to update our sites a nice and easy way of doing so, then we'll get the changes that we all want.

BTW, I've been working towards this for at least the last six months, I saw the need for this ages ago :-)

Cheers

Keith L

[terryh]

&gt; I knocked this up.
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://www.bsac1624.co.uk/Access.shtml" >http://www.bsac1624.co.uk/Access.shtml</a>

You might want to play with that - it's broken. It tries to load files from your hard drive (which, obviously, aren't accessible to the rest of us).

HTH

Vic.

I'm amazed you managed to get anything at all. It was a very
rough effort to show the sort of informative interaction you
can have without using fora.

TerryH

[Philip Smith]

the visualisation you have suggested is good

Really? In my view, one of the main problems with the current BSAC.org pages (and to some extent, Terry's) is that many pages (particularly the front page) try to pack in too much information on (or links to) too many different subjects. It makes it difficult to find specific items. I would hope that the next version will have a much cleaner, less cluttered look, with a well-organised hierarchical and, where necessary, horizontal structure to lead users to specific items. I find expanding menus helpful. Personally, I would prefer to make a few clicks than spend time scanning dense text on one screen. It's also a bit confusing that the "Member Services" link on the sidebar takes you to a page that is substantially (exactly?) the same as the front page. Please also choose headings to identify distinct topic areas. When scanning a page, it is hard to see what the difference is between "Keeping you informed" and "Information" or "Information and sources".

The snorkelling site and the new .com site are much better than the .org site in these respects (although some of the .com pages still look a bit 'busy' to me).

These comments are intended to be constructive.
Phil

[Gareth Webber]

Hi Keith,

We use Magnolia, an open source Java CMS. It works quite well for reasonable size sites and you can set access levels to different sections if you want different people to edit them.

<a href="http://www.london-scuba.com/" >http://www.london-scuba.com/</a>

If you want I can give you an account to look around...

Gareth

[terryh]

:=the visualisation you have suggested is good

Really? In my view, one of the main problems with the current BSAC.org pages (and to some extent, Terry's) is that many pages (particularly the front page) try to pack in too much information on (or links to) too many different subjects. It makes it difficult to find specific items. I would hope that the next version will have a much cleaner, less cluttered look, with a well-organised hierarchical and, where necessary, horizontal structure to lead users to specific items. I find expanding menus helpful. Personally, I would prefer to make a few clicks than spend time scanning dense text on one screen. It's also a bit confusing that the "Member Services" link on the sidebar takes you to a page that is substantially (exactly?) the same as the front page. Please also choose headings to identify distinct topic areas. When scanning a page, it is hard to see what the difference is between "Keeping you informed" and "Information" or "Information and sources".

The snorkelling site and the new .com site are much better than the .org site in these respects (although some of the .com pages still look a bit 'busy' to me).

These comments are intended to be constructive.
Phil

The problem isnt so much that there is too much info, we
actually need more not less. The problem is that its so
disjointed and hard to find, that you either give up or use
other methods like ringing HQ.

What we need is ownership of sections. The people who make the
decisions at local and national level, also keep there part
of the website updated and maintained. In my example I used
Mike's Accessabilty remit. So finding info on that topic would
be as easy as clicking on the title heading. Basicly everything
that BSAC say and do about this one topic would/should be on
this site.

Expand this system to say sections like the Rebreather working
group, Trimix. Instructor Training, SDC's, Regional, Membership
Secs, University, Armed forces, etc.etc. the list goes on.

TerryH