ADP upgrade [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

bythesea

20-05-2010, 20:05

mcroson

20-05-2010, 20:11

i've had the same email and would like to upgrade my adv nitrox ticket where is the list of place's / dates doing the upgrade

bythesea

20-05-2010, 20:19

i've had the same email and would like to upgrade my adv nitrox ticket where is the list of place's / dates doing the upgrade

There are ADP courses in the virtual SDC mag thing on the web site, the only one in the South is the weekend I am on the Manacles...

http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=2986&sectionTitle=List+of+all+Regional+events+in+2010

mcroson

20-05-2010, 20:36

think i'll have to get onto our regional team (east mids) as there will be 5 or 6 in my club which will want to upgrade

Hamish

20-05-2010, 21:02

I've not had an email?

Hamish

bythesea

20-05-2010, 21:11

I've not had an email?

Hamish

I must be special ;)

Adrian Kelland

20-05-2010, 21:25

According to a mail I received today from HQ as a holder of the Adv Nitrox ticket I can upgrade it to the deco procs ticket simply by doing a theory session.

All the courses I see are miles away, so, any peeps in the south west care to explain the upgrade procedure to me and maybe sort out doing the session or do I just need to read the book and do an exam?
I dare say a fee is involved too.

I think one of our new members is a SMG instructor, so hopefully deco procs is one he can do too. Then perhaps we can do it one Friday night in Exeter.

Adrian

GaryC

20-05-2010, 22:32

I've not had an email?

Hamish
I have not had an email from HQ either. But then checking on the BSAC website they don't appear to know about the course I did either?

Gary

bythesea

21-05-2010, 09:01

I dare say a fee is involved too.

I think one of our new members is a SMG instructor, so hopefully deco procs is one he can do too. Then perhaps we can do it one Friday night in Exeter.

Adrian

That would be great Adrian, keep me informed, hell, I may just do the SMG with him too

aflet

21-05-2010, 11:42

Does anyone know if you need the gold buoyancy ticket if you're upgrading from Advanced Nitrox?

barrygoss

21-05-2010, 12:08

AND + BWgold + upgrade workshop = ADPD

HTH

B

bythesea

21-05-2010, 14:31

Does anyone know if you need the gold buoyancy ticket if you're upgrading from Advanced Nitrox?

Edit, just read Barrys....

gobfish1

21-05-2010, 18:13

According to a mail I received today from HQ as a holder of the Adv Nitrox ticket I can upgrade it to the deco procs ticket simply by doing a theory session.

All the courses I see are miles away, so, any peeps in the south west care to explain the upgrade procedure to me and maybe sort out doing the session or do I just need to read the book and do an exam?

Please , can you tell me the number of dive s you did when doing you nitrox class.
and the number of dives you did for the adv nitrox ticket,

Hamish

21-05-2010, 19:48

Please , can you tell me the number of dive s you did when doing you nitrox class.
and the number of dives you did for the adv nitrox ticket,

AND consisted of 2 dives.

Hamish

SoggyBottoms

21-05-2010, 20:20

AND + BWgold + upgrade workshop = ADPD

HTH

B

'fraid monsewer Goss is incorrect. This is an extract from the pack

Student Entry Requirements
• The minimum entry level for this course is BSAC Sports Diver + BSAC Advanced Nitrox Diver or equivalent.
• Must be able to demonstrate medical fitness to dive.

BTS spotted this very nice loop and all you AND's should jump at it ;-)

If you have Advanced Nitrox it's a theory workshop for you to get the ticket

SimonF

21-05-2010, 22:53

'fraid monsewer Goss is incorrect. This is an extract from the pack

Student Entry Requirements
• The minimum entry level for this course is BSAC Sports Diver + BSAC Advanced Nitrox Diver or equivalent.
• Must be able to demonstrate medical fitness to dive.

BTS spotted this very nice loop and all you AND's should jump at it ;-)

If you have Advanced Nitrox it's a theory workshop for you to get the ticket
This got raised by one of our members the other day. Having taught both AdvNx and ADP now (albeit only 1 of the latter), not sure I'd feel comfortable signing off AdvNx diver without any in water time. One of the best aspects of the ADP is the learning experience of doing the confined and open water dives (IMHO) as it is more time getting to grips with the config.

Would be interested to understand the reasoning behind this upgrade route, if anybody knows.

bythesea

22-05-2010, 07:56

as it is more time getting to grips with the config.

As I dive that config weekly why would I need more time to get to grips with it?

It needs to be addressed case by case, if someone has done adv Nitrox but then went back to diving a single tank and never used richer mixes for deco then fine put them in the water.

There is a line in the instructor notes for the crossover stating the instructor must be satisfied the candidate is capable so there is your get out for not automatically signing everybody off.

barrygoss

22-05-2010, 09:32

:-)

You mean BSAC's course notes don't match the upgrade chart??

How strange.

B

Mike Halligan

22-05-2010, 11:49

:-)

You mean BSAC's course notes don't match the upgrade chart??

How strange.

B

I find upgrade charts tend to show what may be achievable in ideal conditions, rather than what must be invested.

If we rely on an upgrade chart and brandish it demanding compliance, many instructors and DOs will walk away shaking their heads and laughing fit to bust.

Like all guidance, they are in my experience for the information of the wise and blind obedience of idiots.

SimonF

22-05-2010, 18:41

As I dive that config weekly why would I need more time to get to grips with it?

It needs to be addressed case by case, if someone has done adv Nitrox but then went back to diving a single tank and never used richer mixes for deco then fine put them in the water.

There is a line in the instructor notes for the crossover stating the instructor must be satisfied the candidate is capable so there is your get out for not automatically signing everybody off.

Agreed, but to be able to make that assessment I would need to spend some time in the water with the person concerned. If I dive with them regularly, then chances are they've demonstrated the required skill set during those dives which then covers off the in water time "getting to grips with it".

May become somewhat academic after today's Q&A session anyway.

barrygoss

25-05-2010, 00:24

I find upgrade charts tend to show what may be achievable in ideal conditions, rather than what must be invested.

If we rely on an upgrade chart and brandish it demanding compliance, many instructors and DOs will walk away shaking their heads and laughing fit to bust.

Like all guidance, they are in my experience for the information of the wise and blind obedience of idiots.

Sorry Mike,

I consider upgrade charts to be the minimum required to upgrade, achievable in ideal conditions? sorry, that's a joke right?? in order to start a course, you must be a certain standard. If you're not that standard you aren't ready for the course. Full stop. No blind obedience, in fact I'm known for questioning the lowering of standards in both my club and generally, however, deeming an upgrade chart as "what is required as achievable in ideal conditions", falls right into this category.

In this case the upgrade chart requires AND + BWgold + upgrade workshop

the course notes require AND plus sports, now it's been a while since I last taught on a AND course, but gold BW is +/-0.5m which I seem to remember is better than that required on the AND course (from memory and please somebody jump in with the actual was +/-1m)

So the course notes require a lesser standard than the upgrade chart. therefore the loophole soggyb was talking about.

You could have a lower standard of diver getting a nearly automatic upgrade of ticket ( to accelerated deco) by a theory workshop.

B

bythesea

25-05-2010, 10:26

You could have a lower standard of diver getting a nearly automatic upgrade of ticket ( to accelerated deco) by a theory workshop.

B

By the same token you could avoid wasting the time and money of those already capable

SoggyBottoms

25-05-2010, 11:29

Candidates shall be awarded the BSAC Accelerated Decompression Procedures Diver certification on achieving the required standard of proficiency. The instructor must be completely satisfied that the student has reached a level of competence and confidence in all skills and a level of understanding that will allow the student to plan and conduct dives safely within the limits of the qualification and accelerating decompression with enriched nitrox mixes up to 80% oxygen.
If the instructor is not fully satisfied in these respects then the qualification should not be awarded.

The above is a lift from ADP materials - so there's room for the experienced diver and the relative novice within the scope of the pack.

Mike Halligan

25-05-2010, 19:52

Sorry Mike,

I consider upgrade charts to be the minimum required to upgrade, achievable in ideal conditions? sorry, that's a joke right?? in order to start a course, you must be a certain standard. If you're not that standard you aren't ready for the course. Full stop. No blind obedience, in fact I'm known for questioning the lowering of standards in both my club and generally, however, deeming an upgrade chart as "what is required as achievable in ideal conditions", falls right into this category.

In this case the upgrade chart requires AND + BWgold + upgrade workshop

the course notes require AND plus sports, now it's been a while since I last taught on a AND course, but gold BW is +/-0.5m which I seem to remember is better than that required on the AND course (from memory and please somebody jump in with the actual was +/-1m)

So the course notes require a lesser standard than the upgrade chart. therefore the loophole soggyb was talking about.

You could have a lower standard of diver getting a nearly automatic upgrade of ticket ( to accelerated deco) by a theory workshop.

B
We're simply talking at cross-purposes, here.

My experience has been that trainees misread an upgrade path to show the minimum they can get away with doing, whereas the DO and/or instructor is actually required to be satisfied at the level being sought.

It's a bit like alternative training, the BSAC specifies what must be achieved elsewhere so as to exceed its own minimum requirements for a given BSAC grade. Look at the other agency and you finds that the same BSAC grade provides complete satisfaction of criteria for a lesser grade than that required to read-across.

I too understand that the new qual is gained by all three of AND, Gold BW and ADP theory. Like you, I seem to remember that AND was conditional on reaching +/- 1m, a lesser standard.

bythesea

25-05-2010, 20:16

Have BSAC ever released anything that didn't need confirmation?

Mike Halligan

25-05-2010, 20:27

Have BSAC ever released anything that didn't need confirmation?
Is that before or after everyone appointed himself DO? :D :D :D

Paul Beal

26-05-2010, 12:58

Sorry Mike,

I consider upgrade charts to be the minimum required to upgrade, achievable in ideal conditions? sorry, that's a joke right?? in order to start a course, you must be a certain standard. If you're not that standard you aren't ready for the course. Full stop. No blind obedience, in fact I'm known for questioning the lowering of standards in both my club and generally, however, deeming an upgrade chart as "what is required as achievable in ideal conditions", falls right into this category.

In this case the upgrade chart requires AND + BWgold + upgrade workshop

the course notes require AND plus sports, now it's been a while since I last taught on a AND course, but gold BW is +/-0.5m which I seem to remember is better than that required on the AND course (from memory and please somebody jump in with the actual was +/-1m)

So the course notes require a lesser standard than the upgrade chart. therefore the loophole soggyb was talking about.

You could have a lower standard of diver getting a nearly automatic upgrade of ticket ( to accelerated deco) by a theory workshop.

B

You needed to be Sports Diver or similar + some experience dives to do Advanced/Combined Nitrox so there is no difference in the 2 sets of requirements being quoted apart from the requirement to have buoyancy workshop Gold (which is free and can be worked easily into branch activities).

Paul

bythesea

26-05-2010, 13:54

Out of interest, I am presuming any regular BSAC instructor can teach the BTW, so who checks that the instructor can hold a stop before they are handed these rights?

SoggyBottoms

26-05-2010, 15:19

The Instructor qual for ADP is to have been assessed at gold or above and hold nitrox instructor or similar.

It's not that hard to demonstrate after years of showing off on AND courses by blowing bags without moving ;-)

GaryC

26-05-2010, 16:52

As an OWI who has done the Advanced Nitrox Course, to gain Advanced Nitrox Diver. And is now considering the ADP, can I assume that I am ok for the gold standard (I have never been assessed for this) or do I now have to go and do a buoyancy workshop with someone who is qualified?

Gary

Paul Beal

26-05-2010, 17:08

Out of interest, I am presuming any regular BSAC instructor can teach the BTW, so who checks that the instructor can hold a stop before they are handed these rights?

Instructor Requirements
The lead instructor should be an OWI or higher. Any
BSAC Qualified Instructor, or assistant instructor
supervised as specified in the DTP, can teach
on the workshop. All instructors should have
rehearsed and mastered the practical skills, to at
least the standard specified for their grade, with
other instructors before teaching/supervising
other students.

We trust our qualified instructors to be able to practice their own skills (much like they do for rescue skills) with other instructors and then use their instructing expertise to break the skills down and present them to a student. Instructors within a branch should feel confident enough to work together to ensure their own skills are good enough before teaching others.

As an OWI who has done the Advanced Nitrox Course, to gain Advanced Nitrox Diver. And is now considering the ADP, can I assume that I am ok for the gold standard (I have never been assessed for this) or do I now have to go and do a buoyancy workshop with someone who is qualified?
Gary

Gary, you can either do a Buoyancy Workshop officially or work with another instructor in the same situation in your branch next time you are diving to sign off each others standard.

I hope this helps

Paul

barrygoss

26-05-2010, 17:16

Gary

The upgrade chart states

AND + BWgold + upgrade workshop = ADPD

but the Instructor notes state

Student Entry Requirements
• The minimum entry level for this course is BSAC Sports Diver + BSAC Advanced Nitrox Diver or equivalent.
• Must be able to demonstrate medical fitness to dive.

BTS spotted this very nice loop and all you AND's should jump at it ;-)

If you have Advanced Nitrox it's a theory workshop for you to get the ticket

So take your pick really. Either do the B/W and do the theory workshop, or, do the theory workshop.

:-)

HTH

B

garethwoodruff

26-05-2010, 22:39

Gary

The upgrade chart states

but the Instructor notes state

So take your pick really. Either do the B/W and do the theory workshop, or, do the theory workshop.

:-)

HTH

B

As said previously I belive its down to the ADP instructor being happy with your diving to just do the upgrade workshop, failing that it means a BW.

SoggyBottoms

27-05-2010, 16:08

Just keeping you all up to date.
Loophole now closed ;-)

To: All BSAC Accelerated Decompression Procedures Diver Instructors.
From: BSAC NDC Technical Group Leader
Subject: Errata for Accelerated Decompression Procedures (ADP) Course materials.
Dear Accelerated Decompression Procedures Instructor,
Following the launch of the ADP course and the first courses run, we have now received some feedback from instructors and some minor errors have been highlighted.
The errors highlighted are in the Upgrade Workshop materials and are as follows;
1.
The Upgrade Workshop document that details the Instructor notes for the workshop has an omission to the third item “Student Entry Requirements”. The following bullet points need to be added:

Have completed the Buoyancy Workshop and achieved buoyancy and trim skill to the level of BSAC Gold Standard. Able to hold a horizontal position in the water within a depth range of + 0.5 metres with minimal movement of fins or arms.

Provide evidence of logged dives to a minimum depth of 30 metres

JimW

27-05-2010, 16:49

AND + BWgold + upgrade workshop = ADPD

HTH

B

Barry

You are correct.

As far as the omission in the Instructor Notes this had been identified and has been notified to all ADP Instructors.

The Upgrade Workshop document that details the Instructor notes for the workshop has an omission to the third item “Student Entry Requirements”. The following bullet points need to be added:

Have completed the Buoyancy Workshop and achieved buoyancy and trim skill to the level of BSAC Gold Standard. Able to hold a horizontal position in the water within a depth range of + 0.5 metres with minimal movement of fins or arms.

Provide evidence of logged dives to a minimum depth of 30 metres

J

GaryC

28-05-2010, 09:58

Gary, you can either do a Buoyancy Workshop officially or work with another instructor in the same situation in your branch next time you are diving to sign off each others standard.

I hope this helps

Paul
Paul

Yes that helps. I presume that on moving from Adv Nitrox to Acc Dec Prod, then we would have to attend the theory side of one of the decprod courses.

What is the cost for that, and how would we book the theory only bit?

Gary

Nigel Wch

30-07-2010, 08:40

How can i get the advanced nitrox course upgraded to the ADP standard? I cant see any upgrade or conversion courses published?

PeteM

30-07-2010, 08:42

How can i get the advanced nitrox course upgraded to the ADP standard? I cant see any upgrade or conversion courses published?

Where are you based? I can put you in touch with someone who may be able to help in Essex if that is close enough.

TrevorB

30-07-2010, 10:31

I have not had an email from HQ either. But then checking on the BSAC website they don't appear to know about the course I did either?

Gary

Gary is there somewhere on the BSAC web site that lists the SDC's you have attended ??

I have also done advanced Nitrox and not been contacted re ADP

GaryC

30-07-2010, 11:23

Gary is there somewhere on the BSAC web site that lists the SDC's you have attended ??

I have also done advanced Nitrox and not been contacted re ADP

Yes. If you logon to the BSAC website (using your username (email address) and password) then you get an option to update your details [top left hand side].

They have everything listed except Advanced Nitrox. Guess I should send them a copy of the sticker.

Gary

TrevorB

30-07-2010, 13:24

Yes. If you logon to the BSAC website (using your username (email address) and password) then you get an option to update your details [top left hand side].

They have everything listed except Advanced Nitrox. Guess I should send them a copy of the sticker.

Gary

Thanks Gary same for me everything except Advanced Nitrox
The paperwork must exist otherwise we would not have stickers

GaryC

30-07-2010, 13:47

Thanks Gary same for me everything except Advanced Nitrox
The paperwork must exist otherwise we would not have stickers
Although I didn't see the HQ email. I understand that to get the DecProd having done the AdvNitDiver in the past, you have to attend the DecProd theory, whilst also having the Gold YoYo standard. (sorry buoyancy)

I was going to ask Paul Beal about it as the Yorkshire Region have a DecProd running on 23rd Oct. However we have had to move our red tarn dive to the 23rd. Maybe next year.

Gary