sports divers

[KatieL]

forgive me if some of this has already come up in the sports divers post but I got a bit bored of the bickering to read to the end

People can legally dive whilst being a member of no organisation once they are qualified?
so when you join bsac club is there not such things as club dives and dives that aren't?
in my club a dive must have 3 club members on it to be classed as a club dive, so if I dive with other people it would be of no concern to my do? true?

also in both ocean diver and sports diver lectures it says that all diving within the club has to be done with the do's permission, but your saying the do has no right to stop the dives?

also with regards to 2 sports divers diving on their own would it not depend whether they were O2 trained and had their PRM?

[David Walker]

People can legally dive whilst being a member of no organisation once they are qualified?

Yes - no one can stop anyone diving, whether they're trained or not. However, diving outside of guidelines (with DO's permission or not) may cause problems with any insurance you might have should anything go wrong.

so when you join bsac club is there not such things as club dives and dives that aren't?

Yes - but as far as I can see the distinction isn't generally all that important other than for a liability issue (ie if its a club dive the DO is partially responsible for your actions).

in my club a dive must have 3 club members on it to be classed as a club dive, so if I dive with other people it would be of no concern to my do? true?

If you dive outside of your club, then it is nothing to do with your DO. Our new DO last year sent out an e-mail saying basically that anyone wanting to dive over the summer had to e-mail him first to get permission (we're a Uni club so most of the dives would NOT be organised by the club over the summer) - that did not go down well, and, ermmmm, "we had words!" and we struggled to ensure members knew that they could dive on holiday and things if they wanted without getting permission, yet trying to do it without completely undermining the authority of the DO.

also in both ocean diver and sports diver lectures it says that all diving within the club has to be done with the do's permission, but your saying the do has no right to stop the dives?
No right at all, but then thats not diving with the club. If you are diving with the club, the DO should agree to it.

also with regards to 2 sports divers diving on their own would it not depend whether they were O2 trained and had their PRM?

Not in the slightest. Apart from anything else, if you're someone's buddy then neither O2 or PRM training will help you (to administer O2 you need to be well yourself, and in PRM you're taught to stand back and not get involved-hard when you're the one who's potentially a casualty).


Despite all the rules and peculiarities, work from this basis:

If you are a member of a club and diving with other members of the club, it would be common courtesy to let the DO know. If you're doing training and you don't let the DO know, he/she can disregard any lessons completed. If you need to use any club facilities, then the DO may withhold them if he/she doesn't give his/her permission for the dive. And whatever you're doing, it is never illegal to dive in the UK at least unless specific local rules are in force, such as wreck protection etc. However, if you are diving when your DO has refused to endorse it and you have an accident, then you may struggle with insurance when they ask "why did you dive against the recommendations of your DO?"

Ultimately, its down to you, what you consider to be safe, and how good a relationship you want to maintain with your DO.

David

[david lisk]

Club dive or not?

I am an OWI (with a BSAC Club) my Daughter is AI and Sports Diver(BSAC Direct).

My DO is away on several weeks holiday. My Daughter and I decide to carry out a local shore dive which we have dived on over 50 previous occasions. As usual, on Sunday mornings there are up to a dozen other divers there that we know well. One agrees (a BSAC member a Dive Leader from another local club)to remain on alert on shore during our dive.

As we are both BSAC members, is this a club dive or a private dive? If a private dive should I have private insurance.

David

[TerryH]

Club dive or not?

I am an OWI (with a BSAC Club) my Daughter is AI and Sports Diver(BSAC Direct).

My DO is away on several weeks holiday. My Daughter and I decide to carry out a local shore dive which we have dived on over 50 previous occasions. As usual, on Sunday mornings there are up to a dozen other divers there that we know well. One agrees (a BSAC member a Dive Leader from another local club)to remain on alert on shore during our dive.

As we are both BSAC members, is this a club dive or a private dive? If a private dive should I have private insurance.

David


It's a non-issue anyway. Your DO will/should delegate his
responsiblity during his absence. The delegate as per the
NDO/DO relationship, will have all the powers (or otherwise)
as if he/she was the DO.

So you would ask your Acting DO and on the info you've
persented here, I would think that he/she would have no
hesitation and say yes.

TerryH

[David Walker]

My DO is away on several weeks holiday. My Daughter and I decide to carry out a local shore dive which we have dived on over 50 previous occasions. As usual, on Sunday mornings there are up to a dozen other divers there that we know well. One agrees (a BSAC member a Dive Leader from another local club)to remain on alert on shore during our dive.

As we are both BSAC members, is this a club dive or a private dive? If a private dive should I have private insurance.

If your DO / club have no knowledge of the dive, then its private. Your BSAC insurance covers you the same on private dives as club dives, as long as you follow BSAC guidelines. Remember though BSAC insurance isn't medical insurance or kit insurance or anything exciting, basically just a lawyer if you kill someone else I think.

And as Terry said, if your DO isn't contactable then they should leave someone else in charge, and make sure members know about that other person.

David

[john williams]

Club dive or not?

I am an OWI (with a BSAC Club) my Daughter is AI and Sports Diver(BSAC Direct).

My DO is away on several weeks holiday. My Daughter and I decide to carry out a local shore dive which we have dived on over 50 previous occasions. As usual, on Sunday mornings there are up to a dozen other divers there that we know well. One agrees (a BSAC member a Dive Leader from another local club)to remain on alert on shore during our dive.

As we are both BSAC members, is this a club dive or a private dive? If a private dive should I have private insurance.

David


.....and if you have a good dialogue and an open working relationship with your DO he/she will already have seen you organise such dives for yourself and your daughter (if not for the branch at large) and will have given you permission to organise them whenever you like - with just a nod to him/her (or his/her delegated stand-in) to let them know what is going on.

This REALLY is not an issue - unless you are a newly qualified Sports Diver who has either never been involved in the organisaton and management of dives, or one who is struggling with the organisation and management of dives, and who the DO feels that you'd benefit from a bit more "controlled" diving to get the hang of it before giving you an open ticket to do whatever you like (because he/she has make an assessment, based on past performance, that you are going to do everything you should to ensure safety).

If you are that newbie, or the one struggling with staying safe - I cannot see what the issue with receiving some friendly mentoring from the DO is. They are only out to keep you safe!
If you cannot see this issue clear as day...you must be the guy the DO is worried about!

John

[david lisk]

:=Club dive or not?
:=
:=I am an OWI (with a BSAC Club) my Daughter is AI and Sports Diver(BSAC Direct).
:=
:=My DO is away on several weeks holiday. My Daughter and I decide to carry out a local shore dive which we have dived on over 50 previous occasions. As usual, on Sunday mornings there are up to a dozen other divers there that we know well. One agrees (a BSAC member a Dive Leader from another local club)to remain on alert on shore during our dive.
:=


:=As we are both BSAC members, is this a club dive or a private dive? If a private dive should I have private insurance.
:=
:=David
:=

.....and if you have a good dialogue and an open working relationship with your DO he/she will already have seen you organise such dives for yourself and your daughter (if not for the branch at large) and will have given you permission to organise them whenever you like - with just a nod to him/her (or his/her delegated stand-in) to let them know what is going on.

This REALLY is not an issue - unless you are a newly qualified Sports Diver who has either never been involved in the organisaton and management of dives, or one who is struggling with the organisation and management of dives, and who the DO feels that you'd benefit from a bit more "controlled" diving to get the hang of it before giving you an open ticket to do whatever you like (because he/she has make an assessment, based on past performance, that you are going to do everything you should to ensure safety).

If you are that newbie, or the one struggling with staying safe - I cannot see what the issue with receiving some friendly mentoring from the DO is. They are only out to keep you safe!
If you cannot see this issue clear as day...you must be the guy the DO is worried about!

John

John,

It was just a scenario! I got to thinking what is a club and what is a private dive.

Could I/BSAC have considered the above example a private dive?

Where do BSAC direct sports diver members stand, as they do not have a DO?

What really are private dives for BSAC members?

In what situations might they occur?

Are these situations set or might they vary from branch to branch with specific rules/recommendations on what constitutes a club dive?

What rules/recommendations do different branches have?

If I was out of the country and dived with my Daughter, unknown to the DO, then would this be be a private dive?

I was just trying to tease out the issues.

No need for the personal remarks, as per your last line, my DO and I have a very close working relationship I happen to be the Club chairman.

Just because you might see something as clear as day others may not, or they might want to hear other opinions, this is actually OK.

On many occasions issues can be more complex than they first appear. Yes, I could put forward my answers to these but I am interested in other views.

A wee bit of tolerance goes a long way, but as an instructor you should know that.

Chill out a bit.

David

[Ian Wigg]

Perhaps I'm being a bit simplistic here but surely fact that the divers in question have been evaluated as being competant to dive unsupervised to the standard required by BSAC for the Sports Diver qualification. If the DO feels that they are not experienced enough to be let out on their own (assuming that they are not planning on exceeding the limitations of their grade) then doesn't that possibly point to the fact that they shouldn't have been awarded the grade in the first place.

[john williams]

John,

It was just a scenario! I got to thinking what is a club and what is a private dive.

That depends on what the rules of your branch state - you agreed to be bound by them when you joined.


Could I/BSAC have considered the above example a private dive?


Yes...but whether you'd be right or wrong is a different question!
:-))

Where do BSAC direct sports diver members stand, as they do not have a DO?

Yes they do...it is the NDO!
But...the NDO does not want to know what you do. BSAC Direct members are bound by BSAC SDPs and by the rules/recommendations of whichever organisation they dive with.
So if they dive with your branch they are bound by your branch rules, if they dive with Acme Diving Inc. they are bound by Acme Diving Inc. rules.
Whoever the Dive Marshal is sets the rules. If you are that perso - you should be qualified to act as Dive Marshal (and as long as you are there is no problem)


What really are private dives for BSAC members?

There are none...because if you are a member of a branch (including BSAC Direct)you are bound by their rules.
This is a controversial statement - but the concept of a private dive is essentially a flawed concept allowing people to disregard the safety guidelines of their diving organisation. It is one not usually recognised by those investigating diving accidents.

In what situations might they occur?

When you want to break the rules!

Are these situations set or might they vary from branch to branch with specific rules/recommendations on what constitutes a club dive?

Yes...where branches have different rules about the organisation of dives. This is likley and desirable. There should be more restrictions in colder, murky, tidal, deeper water than behind a coral reef in crystal clear still water only 6m deep!

What rules/recommendations do different branches have?

That will depend upon their location and their character.
You should find one that fits your needs and then buy into it's rules by joining it.

If I was out of the country and dived with my Daughter, unknown to the DO, then would this be be a private dive?

No...it would be a dive with whichever organisation you were diving with - and therefore bound by their rules. However - you should probably let your DO know whenever it becomes convenient - they will want to know of your expanded experience and newfound skills/enthusiasm - so that they can harness them fo the good of the branch!

I was just trying to tease out the issues.

No need for the personal remarks, as per your last line, my DO and I have a very close working relationship I happen to be the Club chairman.

There was no personal slight intended. I was merely trying to get people to discuss this in the right forum...with their own DO. After all - only the individual and their DO will fully appreciate all the details of any given situation - and therefore are the only ones equipped to deal with it properly.

I was also pointing out that "you" (none specific for anyone)should discuss this issue with your DO until you fully understand it. If you don't do so then the DO will worry about you - because you (by inference) don't fully understand their concerns about organising safe diving.


Just because you might see something as clear as day others may not, or they might want to hear other opinions, this is actually OK.


Yes - it is...as long as they don't count those opinions more highly than those of their DO.
What the person in charge of the diving you are doing goes...If you were organising a dive that I was a guest upon - I'd follow your rules (and I'd expect the same courtesy if you came on one of my dives)

On many occasions issues can be more complex than they first appear.

Which is why the best place to discuss it is with those in full possession of ALL the facts - your own branch!

Yes, I could put forward my answers to these but I am interested in other views.

A wee bit of tolerance goes a long way, but as an instructor you should know that.


I am very tolerant - ask those who dive with me as their DO!
What I don't tolerate is blatant and flagrant disregard for rules set out to solely keep you safe.

Chill out a bit.
I'm chilled - but VERY concerned that there seems to be an element here saying that if you label a dive "private" then you can discount all the rules you ever heard - just because you don't like them. This is an accident waiting to happen ...I just want to do all I can to prevent someone gettign hurt.
The best way to do that is to get them to develop an open and constructive dialogue with their DO. (and not to have them running off doing their own thing whenever the DO makes sensible suggestions to limit their diving to what he/she considers safe for them at their current stage of development)
Working with the DO to address his/her issues as swiftly as possible - to enable the diver to develop the skill level that WILL permit them to do what they want to do ...within the safety parameters set by the DO.


John

[bobg]

It would seem thyat a branch dive is a dive taken with the prior knowledge of the DO.

A non branch dive (and it has its own section in the DO's handbook, so it must be a real thing) is any dive undertaken with the prior knowledge of the DO.

Proviso put on this by BSAC is that a proper risk assessment is done by the divers, or the third party insurance could be void.

Dives may be, but not recommended, undertaken against the express wish of the DO. You wont be covered by BSAC and the DO is required to put his concerns in writing to all members involved, that way he is covered against liability if it goes tits up.

As was said earlier I cannot believe that a DO would object to a dive, as long as it was within a divers experience limit, between 2 sports divers. After all, although it may not always be the case, it was probably the same, or at least a DO of the same branch, that has signed the book to say that the divers in question are trained to a sufficient standard to dive, unsupervised, as a pair. If he had any doubts he should have expressed then before signing the book.

If a DO has concerns about a particular dive then he could simply have a chat to the guys in question and try to find a compromise. And that doesnt mean asking then for a complete breakdown, down to the gas consumption requirements (unless they are looking at a dive that really requires it, of course), exact bottom times and what they intend to have for breakfast.
Just a chat, guiding them to where they might be better off changing things or even a suggestion that they ask for volunteers to join them to make it into a proper club dive. If he is still not happy then he simply puts his concerns down in writing and tells them that they will be diving outside the juristiction of BSAC and any insurances etc will not cover them.

You never know, they might come back next week - and report that they changed the plan slightly to take account of his concern. If they dont at least the DO knows he has done everything in his power to help.

[nick kay]

Perhaps I'm being a bit simplistic here but surely fact that the divers in question have been evaluated as being competant to dive unsupervised to the standard required by BSAC for the Sports Diver qualification.
>> BUT - at the point they qualified as a SD, the max depth they had done was 20m. Suddenly, they're qualified to 35m, so YES they are qualified, but NO they don't have the depth progression and NO they don't have the experience...

If the DO feels that they are not experienced enough to be let out on their own (assuming that they are not planning on exceeding the limitations of their grade) then doesn't that possibly point to the fact that they shouldn't have been awarded the grade in the first place.
>> NO - the DO can't refuse the qualification IF the divers have successfully completed the "course" and demonstrated the required level of competence
>> AND, lets say that they plan a drift dive in 20m (they've been to that depth as an OD, but never done a drift dive) - the DO would be right to query the dive plan and reject it if he wasn't comfortable...

[david lisk]

:=
:=John,
:=
:=It was just a scenario! I got to thinking what is a club and what is a private dive.

That depends on what the rules of your branch state - you agreed to be bound by them when you joined.

:=
:=Could I/BSAC have considered the above example a private dive?
:=

Yes...but whether you'd be right or wrong is a different question!
:-))

:=Where do BSAC direct sports diver members stand, as they do not have a DO?

Yes they do...it is the NDO!
But...the NDO does not want to know what you do. BSAC Direct members are bound by BSAC SDPs and by the rules/recommendations of whichever organisation they dive with.
So if they dive with your branch they are bound by your branch rules, if they dive with Acme Diving Inc. they are bound by Acme Diving Inc. rules.
Whoever the Dive Marshal is sets the rules. If you are that perso - you should be qualified to act as Dive Marshal (and as long as you are there is no problem)

:=
:=What really are private dives for BSAC members?
:=
There are none...because if you are a member of a branch (including BSAC Direct)you are bound by their rules.
This is a controversial statement - but the concept of a private dive is essentially a flawed concept allowing people to disregard the safety guidelines of their diving organisation. It is one not usually recognised by those investigating diving accidents.

:=In what situations might they occur?
:=
When you want to break the rules!

:=Are these situations set or might they vary from branch to branch with specific rules/recommendations on what constitutes a club dive?
:=
Yes...where branches have different rules about the organisation of dives. This is likley and desirable. There should be more restrictions in colder, murky, tidal, deeper water than behind a coral reef in crystal clear still water only 6m deep!

:=What rules/recommendations do different branches have?
:=
That will depend upon their location and their character.
You should find one that fits your needs and then buy into it's rules by joining it.

:=If I was out of the country and dived with my Daughter, unknown to the DO, then would this be be a private dive?
:=
No...it would be a dive with whichever organisation you were diving with - and therefore bound by their rules. However - you should probably let your DO know whenever it becomes convenient - they will want to know of your expanded experience and newfound skills/enthusiasm - so that they can harness them fo the good of the branch!

:=I was just trying to tease out the issues.
:=
:=No need for the personal remarks, as per your last line, my DO and I have a very close working relationship I happen to be the Club chairman.

There was no personal slight intended. I was merely trying to get people to discuss this in the right forum...with their own DO. After all - only the individual and their DO will fully appreciate all the details of any given situation - and therefore are the only ones equipped to deal with it properly.

I was also pointing out that "you" (none specific for anyone)should discuss this issue with your DO until you fully understand it. If you don't do so then the DO will worry about you - because you (by inference) don't fully understand their concerns about organising safe diving.

:=
:=Just because you might see something as clear as day others may not, or they might want to hear other opinions, this is actually OK.
:=

Yes - it is...as long as they don't count those opinions more highly than those of their DO.
What the person in charge of the diving you are doing goes...If you were organising a dive that I was a guest upon - I'd follow your rules (and I'd expect the same courtesy if you came on one of my dives)

:=On many occasions issues can be more complex than they first appear.

Which is why the best place to discuss it is with those in full possession of ALL the facts - your own branch!

Yes, I could put forward my answers to these but I am interested in other views.
:=
:=A wee bit of tolerance goes a long way, but as an instructor you should know that.
:=

I am very tolerant - ask those who dive with me as their DO!
What I don't tolerate is blatant and flagrant disregard for rules set out to solely keep you safe.

:=Chill out a bit.
I'm chilled - but VERY concerned that there seems to be an element here saying that if you label a dive "private" then you can discount all the rules you ever heard - just because you don't like them. This is an accident waiting to happen ...I just want to do all I can to prevent someone gettign hurt.
The best way to do that is to get them to develop an open and constructive dialogue with their DO. (and not to have them running off doing their own thing whenever the DO makes sensible suggestions to limit their diving to what he/she considers safe for them at their current stage of development)
Working with the DO to address his/her issues as swiftly as possible - to enable the diver to develop the skill level that WILL permit them to do what they want to do ...within the safety parameters set by the DO.


John

To summarise above, if BSAC member:

Follow all BSAC/club rules/recommendations.

Consult DO by having an open and constructive dialogue.

No such thing as a 'private dive'


So, we are all in agreement then? mmmm.

David

[Dave]

To summarise above, if BSAC member:

Follow all BSAC/club rules/recommendations.

Consult DO by having an open and constructive dialogue.

No such thing as a 'private dive'

Only in his view of the world, which is hardly generally agreed upon

Dave

[Philip Smith]

This is a controversial statement - but the concept of a private dive is essentially a flawed concept allowing people to disregard the safety guidelines of their diving organisation.

:=In what situations might they occur?
:=
When you want to break the rules!

What I don't tolerate is blatant and flagrant disregard for rules set out to solely keep you safe.

John, why do you insist on equating private/non-branch dives with attempts to disregard rules/recommendations. It has been pointed out several times, and you haven't denied it, that it is possible to conduct safe dives, complying with SDP, in a variety of circumstances, without the knowledge or consent of your branch DO. Yes, there may be concerns about inexperienced divers trying this, but that does not mean that all dives done by BSAC members must be branch dives. To take your example, a dive with Acme Diving Inc. _is_ a private dive as far as the branch is concerned.

Philip Smith

[matt]

It has been pointed out several times, and you haven't denied it, that it is possible to conduct safe dives, complying with SDP, in a variety of circumstances, without the knowledge or consent of your branch DO.

Philip, let me take that a little further. It is possible, with requisite training and experience to dive beyond SDPs with an acceptable level of risk.

I am a BSAC AD, OWI and as an active diver, fit more than a few lessons into my annual dive diary. I help to organise regular diving and the odd exped. I am involved in BSACs working groups and proactively help with running the branch. I completely believe in the BSAC way of divers teaching diving, progressive training and continual practise. The epitomey of the diver that BSAC claims to want in the organisation. However as a keen diver I have ALSO invested much time and money in accumulating training and experience to reach particular objectives beyond the confines of BSAC SDPs. I am perfectly happy with the risks I take on, as are the agencies that qualified me to take them on, BSACs own insurers and not least my own DO and dive buddies.

This whole subject gets me hot under the collar. In today's cosmopolitan, 21st century, diving World, trying to insist that all divers adhere to one culture is like insisting Catholicism is the one true religion. PADI regard decompression as too risky, BSAC take it as a matter of course. BSAC puts a limit of 1.4 on PO2s, IANTD and TDI 1.6. etc, etc. Risk is relative to training and experience - we all know this. Surely it is the NGBs role to communicate it to the powers that be, rather than wind ever increasing rolls of red tape around us, in order that we stay within some arbitrary comfort zone.

So what's it to be, I don't mind helping out, but I am not going to bare the insult of being called irresponsible by someone I hardly know - well not indefinitely. If I am deemed adult enough to choose the limits for the less experienced I expect the respect to choose my own. How the heck can membership of a diving club be allowed to deny the opportunity of a dive which can be made perfectly legitimately outside of it? It is simply too easy to go diving these days to put up with this nonsense. Who in their right mind wants to join, or remain a member of a diving club that stops you diving???

Currently we have a prospective chair declaring we are a club for all, while John tells us, only if you play by our rules. This I feel is both confusing and unacceptable. Either BSAC commits to integration or they do not. What is needed is clarity.

Sorry for the tirade. It has been building up as I watched this thread develop. I am sure the HSB helped with the release. 98% of the time I love being a BSAC member. It just pains me that the other 2% is so hard to tolerate. No disrespect to John, it is the situation I am annoyed about, not the person trying to explain it.

[Gordon Archer]

:=It has been pointed out several times, and you haven't denied it, that it is possible to conduct safe dives, complying with SDP, in a variety of circumstances, without the knowledge or consent of your branch DO.

Philip, let me take that a little further. It is possible, with requisite training and experience to dive beyond SDPs with an acceptable level of risk.

I am a BSAC AD, OWI and as an active diver, fit more than a few lessons into my annual dive diary. I help to organise regular diving and the odd exped. I am involved in BSACs working groups and proactively help with running the branch. I completely believe in the BSAC way of divers teaching diving, progressive training and continual practise. The epitomey of the diver that BSAC claims to want in the organisation. However as a keen diver I have ALSO invested much time and money in accumulating training and experience to reach particular objectives beyond the confines of BSAC SDPs. I am perfectly happy with the risks I take on, as are the agencies that qualified me to take them on, BSACs own insurers and not least my own DO and dive buddies.

This whole subject gets me hot under the collar. In today's cosmopolitan, 21st century, diving World, trying to insist that all divers adhere to one culture is like insisting Catholicism is the one true religion. PADI regard decompression as too risky, BSAC take it as a matter of course. BSAC puts a limit of 1.4 on PO2s, IANTD and TDI 1.6. etc, etc. Risk is relative to training and experience - we all know this. Surely it is the NGBs role to communicate it to the powers that be, rather than wind ever increasing rolls of red tape around us, in order that we stay within some arbitrary comfort zone.

So what's it to be, I don't mind helping out, but I am not going to bare the insult of being called irresponsible by someone I hardly know - well not indefinitely. If I am deemed adult enough to choose the limits for the less experienced I expect the respect to choose my own. How the heck can membership of a diving club be allowed to deny the opportunity of a dive which can be made perfectly legitimately outside of it? It is simply too easy to go diving these days to put up with this nonsense. Who in their right mind wants to join, or remain a member of a diving club that stops you diving???

Currently we have a prospective chair declaring we are a club for all, while John tells us, only if you play by our rules. This I feel is both confusing and unacceptable. Either BSAC commits to integration or they do not. What is needed is clarity.

Sorry for the tirade. It has been building up as I watched this thread develop. I am sure the HSB helped with the release. 98% of the time I love being a BSAC member. It just pains me that the other 2% is so hard to tolerate. No disrespect to John, it is the situation I am annoyed about, not the person trying to explain it.




Well said matt

As a diving officer, It is my opinion that it is not our place to regulate what divers do or do not do outside of the club dive environment.
People can go and dive privatley that is their democratic right, but on club dives they have to adhere to Club/BSAC recommendations or requirements, which is where the DO has an input.

[Ian Wigg]

:=Perhaps I'm being a bit simplistic here but surely fact that the divers in question have been evaluated as being competant to dive unsupervised to the standard required by BSAC for the Sports Diver qualification.

>> BUT - at the point they qualified as a SD, the max depth they had done was 20m. Suddenly, they're qualified to 35m, so YES they are qualified, but NO they don't have the depth progression and NO they don't have the experience...

Couple of points - first the original post didn't specify a depth, secondly, as far as I understand it, SD only initally qualifies you to 20m anyway - to get to 35m you have to show depth progression. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that one.


If the DO feels that they are not experienced enough to be let out on their own (assuming that they are not planning on exceeding the limitations of their grade) then doesn't that possibly point to the fact that they shouldn't have been awarded the grade in the first place.

>> NO - the DO can't refuse the qualification IF the divers have successfully completed the "course" and demonstrated the required level of competence.

If they've demonstrated the required level of comptence then per se they must have been judged competent to be let out on their own within the confines of that qualification. You seem to be saying that although the DO can't refuse to award the qualification he can refuse to susequently recognise it.


>> AND, lets say that they plan a drift dive in 20m (they've been to that depth as an OD, but never done a drift dive) - the DO would be right to query the dive plan and reject it if he wasn't comfortable...

Agree with you completely but then they wouldn't be diving under conditions which they have already experienced and therefore would come under the bit which says that in this sort of circumstance they would need to with a DL or higher.

[john williams]

To take your example, a dive with Acme Diving Inc. _is_ a private dive as far as the branch is concerned.

Philip Smith

No it's not...it is a dive as a guest of another diving organisation.

Just as diving with the Regional SDC is diving with another entity, as is diving on ITS events, as is diving with other branches (dual membership).

All these dives are under the mantle of the organising body.
As a matter of courtesy I've always informed my DO of my intentions to attend courses/holidays/underwater events outside the branch.

A private dive is one where you, me and some mates just go off and do a dive - without any support!

I've proven my ability to organise dives in this manner and been given permission from my DO (when it was not me!) to do just this. Because my DO has given me this blanket approval (on the understanding that I follow BSAC SDPs) I consider it to be a branch dive - and one which I'll discuss with the DO as soon as it becomes convenient (either prior to or after the event).

The only circumstance where my diving could not be considered a branch dive is when I deliberately intend to work outside the parameters set by my DO (which is BSAC SDPs). Certainly, in my case anyway, the only "reason" to conduct a private dive is to ignore rules and safety advice.

Not something I would be likely to do myself, nor to encourage in others.

Hope this clarifies my position.

John

[john williams]

:=It has been pointed out several times, and you haven't denied it, that it is possible to conduct safe dives, complying with SDP, in a variety of circumstances, without the knowledge or consent of your branch DO.

Philip, let me take that a little further. It is possible, with requisite training and experience to dive beyond SDPs with an acceptable level of risk.

If you discuss these risks with your DO and satisfy them that they are acceptable - by virtue of your additional training and certification then no-one (least of all me) will have a problem with that.

However - if you have not done the additional training, not got the certificates, or not provided evidence of same to the DO then I can see why they might get anxious about you diving outside SDPs...can't you?


I am a BSAC AD, OWI and as an active diver, fit more than a few lessons into my annual dive diary. I help to organise regular diving and the odd exped. I am involved in BSACs working groups

Working Groups - especially diving working groups - do proper risk assessments with divers of proven capability before moving outside SDPs - with a view to extending the safe ranges for all of us. If you are involved in that process - thank you. I welcome the progressionthat you are striving for.

and proactively help with running the branch. I completely believe in the BSAC way of divers teaching diving, progressive training and continual practise. The epitomey of the diver that BSAC claims to want in the organisation. However as a keen diver I have ALSO invested much time and money in accumulating training and experience to reach particular objectives beyond the confines of BSAC SDPs. I am perfectly happy with the risks I take on, as are the agencies that qualified me to take them on, BSACs own insurers and not least my own DO and dive buddies.

This whole subject gets me hot under the collar. In today's cosmopolitan, 21st century, diving World, trying to insist that all divers adhere to one culture is like insisting Catholicism is the one true religion. PADI regard decompression as too risky, BSAC take it as a matter of course. BSAC puts a limit of 1.4 on PO2s, IANTD and TDI 1.6. etc, etc. Risk is relative to training and experience - we all know this. Surely it is the NGBs role to communicate it to the powers that be, rather than wind ever increasing rolls of red tape around us, in order that we stay within some arbitrary comfort zone.

So what's it to be, I don't mind helping out, but I am not going to bare the insult of being called irresponsible by someone I hardly know - well not indefinitely.

There's the key...get to know your DO and then you will overcome the perceived difficulties here.

If I am deemed adult enough to choose the limits for the less experienced I expect the respect to choose my own.

You are only deemed adult enough to set limits of less experienced divers in your branch by the authority of the Branch DO - you cannot overrule their authority - but must work within it.

How the heck can membership of a diving club be allowed to deny the opportunity of a dive which can be made perfectly legitimately outside of it?

If you have made the effort to make the dive legitimately outside of the BSAC (by gaining external certification to extend your capability) then it is safe to do internally too! (but since the DO is responsible for safety it is only polite to tell them before you do it!)

It is simply too easy to go diving these days to put up with this nonsense. Who in their right mind wants to join, or remain a member of a diving club that stops you diving???

The branch is about ENABLING people to go diving. The DO and their local guidelines are about ensuring that you are safe to do what you plan. If the DO has concerns then they should be discussed - not ignored! The DO's goal is to train you to be safe so that you can do want to do without causing concern. A good DO might even suggest an external course (I know that I havedone so in the past!)


Currently we have a prospective chair declaring we are a club for all, while John tells us, only if you play by our rules. This I feel is both confusing and unacceptable. Either BSAC commits to integration or they do not. What is needed is clarity.

There is no confusion in my mind. BSAC welcomes diversity, it welcomes experience, it welcomes all divers.

BSAC does NOT encourage people to dive beyond their limits. The people who volunteer at local level (and who we elect and accept)to be custodians of our safety are called Branch Diving Officers.
It is their role to mediate between our ego and our ability. We should use them as impartial, but critical, friends - as someone prepared to undertake a reality check on our behalf.


Sorry for the tirade. It has been building up as I watched this thread develop. I am sure the HSB helped with the release. 98% of the time I love being a BSAC member. It just pains me that the other 2% is so hard to tolerate. No disrespect to John, it is the situation I am annoyed about, not the person trying to explain it.

We must remember that the divers in question at the beginning of this thread were apparently newly qualified Sports Divers (do you remember how far your own ego outstripped your ability and experience at that stage? I remember doing some daft things myself at that stage of my diving career - I beleived I was indestructible!)

These people SHOULD be encouraged (as strongly as is possible to do in an environment where they can walk away and do it anyway) to run plans past someone with the experience and qualifications to temper their enthusiasm into competence.

All the people who have gained further qualification (within or without the BSAC) and proved their competence to the DO should be allowed to get on with it.

However, they should set an example to those without the training and experience to manage their own dives by openly discussing plans with the DO - a process which would help those less well qualified to understand the process/extra training required to do it safely that much more quickly anyway.

I'll apologise for my own tirade and lack of eloquence in putting that message across:

1) DOs should give credit for experience and training where it is due
2) DOs should encourage people to get training/experience to be able to do whatever they want to do
3) Those without the training or the experience should defer to someone who does in order to saty safe whilst they get it.


Does that make more sense?

John

[nick kay]

Couple of points - first the original post didn't specify a depth, secondly, as far as I understand it, SD only initally qualifies you to 20m anyway - to get to 35m you have to show depth progression. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that one.
>> You're correct - SD allows you to dive to a max depth of 35m, but you're supposed to do the depth progression...

If they've demonstrated the required level of comptence then per se they must have been judged competent to be let out on their own within the confines of that qualification. You seem to be saying that although the DO can't refuse to award the qualification he can refuse to susequently recognise it.
>> But the award of the qualification doesn't say "subject to diving in the following conditions..."
>> The award of a diver grade just says "you've satisfied the criteria", the "criteria" being a given set of skills and having completed a given number of dives in a given set of conditions

[Philip Smith]

A private dive is one where you, me and some mates just go off and do a dive - without any support!

That is your definition, not mine. We're going to have to agree to differ on that.

Philip Smith

[Edward Haynes]

Hi John

Have now done some research and I can not find reference to a 'private' dive (contra to earlier posts from myself) there are Branch dives and non-Branch dives.

Edward

[bobg]

Hi John

Have now done some research and I can not find reference to a 'private' dive (contra to earlier posts from myself) there are Branch dives and non-Branch dives.

Edward

So if it is not organised by your branch it is a dive that was organised privately - ergo, a private dive. Or a dive that is not open to the public, also private. LOL

[Philip Smith]

Have now done some research and I can not find reference to a 'private' dive (contra to earlier posts from myself) there are Branch dives and non-Branch dives.

I don't think any distinction between "private" and "non-branch" is important, but perhaps I could draw your attention to the following:

Branch Officers' Handbook 1.5.1
Part of each member's annual subscription contributes to the cost of this insurance, which provides cover for members, guests and invitees in respect of claims made by third parties for injury and/or damage to property arising out of accidents occurring during official Branch activities and when diving privately provided the guidance in the Safe Diving Practices (Section 2.2.2) is being followed.

SDP Insurance
Cover is not restricted to only BSAC organised events or when the member is diving with other BSAC members.

Insurance FAQ
What happens when I am abroad and diving on holiday with other organisations at either a Dive Centre at a Hotel, or an Independent Dive School at Resort?
Your BS-AC member liability insurance still covers you but if you are going to engage in speciality diving that is outside of the BS-AC recommendations, please check with BS-AC Headquarters and their Insurance Advisors that the activity can be included in the member liability cover.

Philip Smith

[matt]

However - if you have not done the additional training, not got the certificates, or not provided evidence of same to the DO then I can see why they might get anxious about you diving outside SDPs...can't you?

Yes I can, and yes I do. Where we may differ, and I am not so sure we do, is that I see the SDPs as a guidebook. SDPs provides a starting point when you do not have the experience to decide for yourself. Trying to use the SDPs as a rule book does not guarantee safety and leads to a clipboard mentality.

BSAC and it's DOs also need to face up to the fact that they are not the only organisation providing safety advice. With the rising number of crossovers this is a growing issue. As example; PADI qualify OWs to dive together independently. An AOW + Deep Speciality is qualified to dive to 40m. The DO that waves SDPs and insists that they dive only within those 'rules' is not exactly going to appear welcoming. Far from helping these people to go diving, the DO is making it all a great deal more complicated at a time when they have no allegiance to BSAC.

What would you think if you walked into an XYZ Divers Premier dive centre, passed over your QRB and log book only to be told that your BSAC training was unsafe and you can now only dive to 18m with the dive guides for three months. Personally I would think the centre is mad, take my business elsewhere and have no more to do with XYZ Divers.

Branches and DOs need the flexibility to encourage people to become involved in club diving and to win them over. Unfortunately that can sometimes mean having the tolerance to watch as people expose themselves to risks we may not be entirely comfortable with.

Exactly the same is true at the higher levels. BSAC may not be comfortable with the techniques that technical qualifications allow, but they can not prevent divers from using them. We can point out the risks, we can help people to assess their limits, we can provide support. We might even justify risks as too great for branch activities, but at the end of the day we have to allow people to sensibly assume their own level of risk because they will do so with or without BSAC. It is the difference between coaching and nannying (IMVHO).

Working Groups - especially diving working groups...I welcome the progression that you are striving for.

I am afraid it is far more tedious - seems BSAC have more divers than people with my own particular speciality skills ;-) I was merely indicating that I am not exactly anti-BSAC. I have demonstrated that I am willing to work with BSAC.

Ultimately though, BSAC must not limit my personal advancement in this sport - because diving is too important to me. It is the same motivation that drives me past SDPs that leads me to be active within BSAC. The question BSAC have to ask is whether they want to encourage divers like myself to stay, to help, to share experience and enthusiasm, or make it difficult for us. If BSAC want us, it needs to be stated with absolute clarity...Because personally, I am fed up to the hind teeth of divers with half the experience, waving SDPs at me, telling me I am irresponsible and can not possibly do what I have been doing for years. I don't care if it is a branch DO or a regional coach, open your minds a little.

You are only deemed adult enough to set limits of less experienced divers in your branch by the authority of the Branch DO - you cannot overrule their authority - but must work within it.

Of course I can overrule the DO. That's the point, I can leave. Although the BOH describes a hierarchy, the DO in reality rules by the consent of those he is supposed to govern. A DO that loses the respect of branch members becomes ineffectual.

Any DO that tries to tell me I can not do or that I am unsafe doing what I am trained, qualified, and experienced doing, will find himself short of an active and experienced instructor. Alternatively the DO that treats me like a peer will find someone more than willing to help and support him. Like so many aspects of club life it comes down to give and take on both sides.

The branch is about ENABLING people to go diving.

Absolutely agree. NO should be the least used word in a DOs vocabulary.

The DO and their local guidelines are about ensuring that you are safe to do what you plan.

Define safe. The safest way to go diving is to not dive at all - that's not going to go down too well ;-) If we are going to go diving, we have to accept people taking risks - both a human need and a legal right. Acceptable risk is relative to many things but in a free society it is ultimately decided by the individual. I think it is irresponsible risk that we need to avoid. Training, qualifying and progressive experience sounds a pretty responsible way to go about things to me. Risk assessments, limits within SDPs, and liability statements, that's accountancy to my mind.

If the DO has concerns then they should be discussed - not ignored!

Absolutely agree. I am not saying that DOs or anyone else should sit back in silence. Quite the opposite. You need dialogue, but dialogue only comes with tolerance on both sides.

The DO's goal is to train you to be safe so that you can do want to do without causing concern.

Disagree. The DO is the role of coach and mentor. They should be encouraging divers to do what they do as well as they can. They should not stifle peoples enthusiasm or ability to challenge themselves. By all means guide, but do not limit. The only boundaries to progression are the physiological ones - everything else is relative.

A good DO might even suggest an external course (I know that I have done so in the past!)

Yes and I have completed a few such courses. They somewhat changed my views of what is possible.

However, they should set an example to those without the training and experience to manage their own dives by openly discussing plans with the DO

Yes I agree. Unfortunately the current situation is muddy to say the least. With SDPs standing in the way, providing the DO with prior knowledge of plans outside those SDPs puts the DO in an awkward position. The continual beating of the insured status stick does not encourage dialogue.
We need clarity from the top to resolve the misunderstandings.

I'll apologise for my own tirade and lack of eloquence in putting that message across:
Does that make more sense?

I think we are in general agreement. Which is unsurprising because it is pretty much a common sense approach. Personally I think it is the details of the SDPs and their interpretation that lead to these disagreements and that is the situation I am annoyed at.

We can not afford to let bureaucracy get in the way of common sense. That I feel is where BSAC as an organisation should be stepping in. I do not accept the mounting pile of paperwork required to get BSAC divers into the water as a forgone conclusion. It may be what the HSE want, it certainly is not what I want.

[Mark Papp]

John,

I'm sure that if I were to join a BSAC club a quick chat with the DO would give me carte blanche to dive how, when and with whomever I choose.

However, I have a problem with the principle that the DO might have jurisdiction over any non-branch activity of any diver. I find this, though it might be helpful to some divers, unacceptably intrusive. I know of no similar regulation in any field.

I could not join any organisation with similar strictures.

Regards,

Mark

[john williams]

John,

I'm sure that if I were to join a BSAC club a quick chat with the DO would give me carte blanche to dive how, when and with whomever I choose.

Then all your "private" diving will actually be Branch diving. If the DO has given you carte blanche to use your own judgement about the risks involved in any activity outside the SDPs then that's OK.
If you come across new experiences - they may be new to you, or new to the DO, or new to the branch - then share them. Allow all to learn from how you dealt with it (or get some ideas of how others may have dealt with it...whatever ...everyone gets to learn from your experience)

The question is - should DOs give such freedom to newly qualified and very inexperienced SDs without the benefit of external training to support them?
I don't think they should. I also don't think that such junior divers should have the right and priviledge to ignore the advice of someone who has volunteered to coach them into a position where they CAN be given such freedoms.
Of course they have the right to walk away...but then they would be throwing away a very valuable resource - the BSAC, the Branch and the support of the Brach DO.


However, I have a problem with the principle that the DO might have jurisdiction over any non-branch activity of any diver. I find this, though it might be helpful to some divers, unacceptably intrusive. I know of no similar regulation in any field.

At your level it would be intrusive - at the level that started the discussion (and I mentioned above) it is not intrusive ...it is supportive!

I could not join any organisation with similar strictures.
And I could not be a part of an organisation that allowed beginners carte blanche to do whatever they wanted without the raining and experience behind them to do it safely.
(give them that training and experience - measured locally by the DO - and let them go free by all means)

I think we are also in broad agreement. Those with proven ability (or certification) should be free to do what they are qualified to do - and to extend their present experience in small steps towards more extreme goals.

Those without the training/experience they should be encouraged to work to sensible limits just beyond their experience/qualification (to allow for expansion - whilst limiting risk to sensible levels)

John

[john williams]

I don't think any distinction between "private" and "non-branch" is important

I think it is essential!
A non-branch dive is just a dive done under the umbrella of a different organisation (such as the ITS, the Regional Coaching Scheme, a different branch or a tour operator abroad)

a "private" dive should not exist - if the DO feels you are competent and safe to run diving activity then it is a branch dive.

If the DO does not feel that you are competent to run a safe dive without help - but you do it anyway then you are running a "private dive"

Now...to quote your post:
"provided the guidance in the Safe Diving Practices (Section 2.2.2) is being followed"
You have just confirmed for us that BSAC insurance does not cover you if you intentionally dive outside SDPs. (unless you have previously discussed it with HQ - and been given dispensation to do so)

However, you are covered when diving with a PADI school abroad (or any other agency or operator in any country not specifically excluded)

However - the wording IS unfortunate. In this case I read the words "during official Branch activities and when diving privately" to mean "during branch dives and non-branch dives"

Something that Edward would seem to confirm with his most recent post to this part of the thread.

John



Branch Officers' Handbook 1.5.1
Part of each member's annual subscription contributes to the cost of this insurance, which provides cover for members, guests and invitees in respect of claims made by third parties for injury and/or damage to property arising out of accidents occurring during official Branch activities and when diving privately provided the guidance in the Safe Diving Practices (Section 2.2.2) is being followed.

SDP Insurance
Cover is not restricted to only BSAC organised events or when the member is diving with other BSAC members.

Insurance FAQ
What happens when I am abroad and diving on holiday with other organisations at either a Dive Centre at a Hotel, or an Independent Dive School at Resort?
Your BS-AC member liability insurance still covers you but if you are going to engage in speciality diving that is outside of the BS-AC recommendations, please check with BS-AC Headquarters and their Insurance Advisors that the activity can be included in the member liability cover.

Philip Smith

[Philip Smith]

A non-branch dive is just a dive done under the umbrella of a different organisation (such as the ITS, the Regional Coaching Scheme, a different branch or a tour operator abroad)

In a previous message, I listed various categories of dive that would be "non-branch" or (from the branch's perspective) "private".

a "private" dive should not exist - if the DO feels you are competent and safe to run diving activity then it is a branch dive.

It is not a branch dive if it is not done under the auspices of the branch, for example because it is not available to all suitably-qualified members of the branch; it is then a "private dive". It could nevertheless be done safely and covered by BSAC insurance. You may say that there are no circumstances in which branch members should be excluding their branch-mates, but I would not agree (I listed various possible circumstances earlier).

You have just confirmed for us that BSAC insurance does not cover you if you intentionally dive outside SDPs. (unless you have previously discussed it with HQ - and been given dispensation to do so)

That would be decided on a case by case basis. That issue has been discussed extensively here before.

However - the wording IS unfortunate.

The wording is entirely reasonable, providing you have a common sense definition of "diving privately".

Something that Edward would seem to confirm with his most recent post to this part of the thread.

Well the point of my previous post was to point out that Edward was not quite correct: the concept of private dives is acknowledged in an official BSAC publication (and has been for a long time).

Philip Smith

[john williams]

:=You have just confirmed for us that BSAC insurance does not cover you if you intentionally dive outside SDPs. (unless you have previously discussed it with HQ - and been given dispensation to do so)

That would be decided on a case by case basis. That issue has been discussed extensively here before.

yes it has...and I'm surprised that you clouded the issue with it. the bottom line of those discussions resulted in the following advice:
If you wish to step outside SDPs - and retain your insurance cover - you need written permission from HQ (who would consult our underwriters first) BEFORE you do it.


:=However - the wording IS unfortunate.

The wording is entirely reasonable, providing you have a common sense definition of "diving privately".

I beleive that I DO have a common sense definition of "private" - "private" being "not public".
Dives with outfits other than the branch - but which are open to the (suitably qualified) public are therefore "non-branch" - but not "private".


:=Something that Edward would seem to confirm with his most recent post to this part of the thread.

Well the point of my previous post was to point out that Edward was not quite correct: the concept of private dives is acknowledged in an official BSAC publication (and has been for a long time).

And Edward & I would both seem to contend that your understanding is what is flawed - and that Edward was entirley correct.


I beleive that we've now done this to death and that we will have to leave it here and agree to differ.

John

[Philip Smith]

This is going around in circles now, so I will end with this.

I beleive that I DO have a common sense definition of "private" - "private" being "not public".
Dives with outfits other than the branch - but which are open to the (suitably qualified) public are therefore "non-branch" - but not "private".

I agree with your definition of "public non-branch dives". If you will accept that "private dives" also exist and can be done safely, then we can end in further agreement.

And Edward & I would both seem to contend that your understanding is what is flawed - and that Edward was entirley correct.

Well, "diving privately" is in black and white in BSAC guidance for all to see.

Under normal circumstances, most dives by BSAC branch members should be branch dives, with the safety benefits of branch support that that entails. Such dives clearly require the prior knowledge and approval of the branch DO. This is especially true for less-qualified and less-experienced members. However, on occasion, suitably-qualified and experienced members may wish to dive outside the auspices of their branch or any other public diving agency; for example, with a group of friends with other affiliations. They are at liberty to do so, it can be done within SDP, their branch DO is not responsible for it and the insurance cover applies. That is a legitimate "private dive", as recognised in successive editions of the Branch Officers' Handbook. Obviously, ill-conceived dives by inexperienced members are to be very strongly discouraged.

Philip Smith

[john williams]

Under normal circumstances, most dives by BSAC branch members should be branch dives, with the safety benefits of branch support that that entails. Such dives clearly require the prior knowledge and approval of the branch DO. This is especially true for less-qualified and less-experienced members. However, on occasion, suitably-qualified and experienced members may wish to dive outside the auspices of their branch or any other public diving agency; for example, with a group of friends with other affiliations. They are at liberty to do so, it can be done within SDP, their branch DO is not responsible for it and the insurance cover applies. That is a legitimate "private dive", as recognised in successive editions of the Branch Officers' Handbook. Obviously, ill-conceived dives by inexperienced members are to be very strongly discouraged.

I can (and do) agree with this...but would ask you to expand upon how people are categorised into "suitably-qualified and experienced" and who should measure the difference between them and the "ill-conceived dives by inexperienced members" which "are to be strongly discouraged"

To my mind this differentiation is one of the prime duties of the DO (alongside providing a varied diving programme to meet the diving and training needs of ALL sectors of the branch)

The process involved in assessing into which category a dive/diver falls must surely involve discussion with the DO - at least in the abstract.
Coincidentally - the DO cannot provide for everyone's needs or plan appropriate training without the same discussion taking place....hoe else do they know what people want to do?

All I ever asked for was that people open dialogue with their DO and either share their knowledge and experience - or draw upon that of their DO to ensure that they do what they want to do as safely as possible (which might involve providing extra training/work-up dives for the less experienced before attempting the more ambitious plans)

I think we agree in principle...but have come at the problem from opposite directions.


John