BSAC List of qualified Divers

[ipiddock]

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can help. I am posting this on behalf of my mother. I will be going away on a dive trip to Malta in August and thinking about treating mum to a holiday at the same time. It occurred to me that she trained with BSAC many many moons ago, but she no longer has any of the paperwork, is there any way she can get hold of new paperwork to prove her certification so she can dive. I am ware she may also need a refresher or something, can any help, and ideas?

Ian

[Adrian Kelland]

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can help. I am posting this on behalf of my mother. I will be going away on a dive trip to Malta in August and thinking about treating mum to a holiday at the same time. It occurred to me that she trained with BSAC many many moons ago, but she no longer has any of the paperwork, is there any way she can get hold of new paperwork to prove her certification so she can dive. I am ware she may also need a refresher or something, can any help, and ideas?

Ian

BSAC HQ may have membership details, but don't keep dive qualification records except for 1st Class and Instructor grades. Her old branch might have records, but most likely not.

Contact HQ to start.

Adrian

[Steve L.]

Ian

Your Mum is not alone, Mark Bauwens, candidate for BSAC Chairman has the same problem !

Malta is a great place. I hope, by hook or by crook, your Mum gets some diving in. In any case have a good holiday

Steve

[David Walker]

BSAC HQ may have membership details, but don't keep dive qualification records except for 1st Class and Instructor grades. Her old branch might have records, but most likely not.

We all fill in our qualifications every year on the membership form so assume they store that somewhere - I haven't been diving too long, so not sure if its a relatively new addition to the membership form, but it might be there... problem will be that it isn't a verified qualification (ie you just ticked a box on your form), and so might not be able to give any kind of replacement anyway.

Contact HQ to start.

Yep, same advice, just hopefully a more positive outcome.

Otherwise try the branch she trained with - if someone remembers her then there are ways for branches to replace lost records, and if they remember her as a diver of a certain level might do that for her. Worth a try if you don't get anything from HQ.

David

[John Williams]

Your Mum is not alone, Mark Bauwens, candidate for BSAC Chairman has the same problem !

Only difference (AIUI ...& of course I may be wrong!) with that one is that there are full records for the dates and qualifications he claims...and there is no mention of his name - and no gaps in the record (and no-one from the courses/exams he claims to have attended remembers him)

You work it out!

John

[rob higgie]

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can help. I am posting this on behalf of my mother. I will be going away on a dive trip to Malta in August and thinking about treating mum to a holiday at the same time. It occurred to me that she trained with BSAC many many moons ago, but she no longer has any of the paperwork, is there any way she can get hold of new paperwork to prove her certification so she can dive. I am ware she may also need a refresher or something, can any help, and ideas?

Ian
Dear Ian

I am currently on BSAC council in membership services. I would be happy to assist you trace your mothers records. Please could you email me ( <a href="mailto:rhiggie@tiscali.co.uk">rhiggie@tiscali.co.uk</a> ) as much background info? Branch or town were the training took place, Name maiden name if known by that when training and BOD.
This will assist Trina McDonald BSAC Membership Supervisor to trace your mothers details.
Kind Regards


Rob Higgie
BSAC Council



Hi,

I wonder if anyone can help. I am posting this on behalf of my mother. I will be going away on a dive trip to Malta in August and thinking about treating mum to a holiday at the same time. It occurred to me that she trained with BSAC many many moons ago, but she no longer has any of the paperwork, is there any way she can get hold of new paperwork to prove her certification so she can dive. I am ware she may also need a refresher or something, can any help, and ideas?

Ian

[Kevin Miller]

:=Hi,
:=
:=I wonder if anyone can help. I am posting this on behalf of my mother. I will be going away on a dive trip to Malta in August and thinking about treating mum to a holiday at the same time. It occurred to me that she trained with BSAC many many moons ago, but she no longer has any of the paperwork, is there any way she can get hold of new paperwork to prove her certification so she can dive. I am ware she may also need a refresher or something, can any help, and ideas?
:=
:=Ian
Dear Ian

I am currently on BSAC council in membership services. I would be happy to assist you trace your mothers records. Please could you email me ( <a href="mailto:rhiggie@tiscali.co.uk">rhiggie@tiscali.co.uk</a> ) as much background info? Branch or town were the training took place, Name maiden name if known by that when training and BOD.
This will assist Trina McDonald BSAC Membership Supervisor to trace your mothers details.
Kind Regards


Rob Higgie
BSAC Council

Rob
It would be extremely useful if there was a database maintained at HQ. I know, from previous posts, that there is a Data Protection issue, but more and more I'm finding lapsed members wishing to join our branch. We do all the usual check dives etc., but when a class 2 diver joins you and the best you can offer him is Sports diver, after a theory check and check dives, then things are not right. I fully accept, as does the diver in question, that 'revision' is very much appropriate in such a case but he HAS qualified to a higher level.

Cheers
Kev

[Edward Haynes]

Rob

I'm afraid your offer is in violation of the DP legislation. Only Ian's mother can request her information.

Sorry to be the barer of bad news, but a as Director you are personally liable for DP compliance of BSAC ltd. (Even Secretary's of State have fallen foul of this one.)

Edward

Dear Ian

I am currently on BSAC council in membership services. I would be happy to assist you trace your mothers records. Please could you email me ( <a href="mailto:rhiggie@tiscali.co.uk">rhiggie@tiscali.co.uk</a> ) as much background info? Branch or town were the training took place, Name maiden name if known by that when training and BOD.
This will assist Trina McDonald BSAC Membership Supervisor to trace your mothers details.
Kind Regards


Rob Higgie
BSAC Council

[rob higgie]

Hi Kev
Many thanks for your posting.
Second-class diver grade was before my time as I have only been diving since 1999. When the world has been Ocean Diver ect. This in turn meant that I have had to take advice from membership at BSAC HQ this afternoon. They confirm to me that a second-class diver would rejoin as a Dive Leader.
However I feel that; after a considerable lay off period any diver should under take a skills and knowledge refresher and be allowed to be advised by the DO of his branch as what type of diving they undertake until their skills reach the level they once were.
Considerable data of lapsed divers does exist at BSAC and we have had many divers rejoin after very long periods. I would not favour a published list of qualified divers for three reasons.
A. Many divers would not wish to have their details published. In a similar way many people prefer to have their telephone numbers ex directory.
B. It could be a logistical nightmare to keep this data base up to date BSAC often only learn when a diver changes grade at renewal. For example a sports diver who renews on the 1st April 05 and then qualifies as a dive leader on the 15th May 05. Unless the diver or club takes the initiative to inform BSAC at that time it will be at renewal 1st April 06 that BSAC will learn of the change of grade. This will then mean if a central register was published it would have had incorrect information about that diver from 15 May 05 to the 1st April 06.
C. A register of qualified divers, even if privacy and data protection issues could be resolved, that does not include divers trained by other clubs and agencies for UK residents would limit it?s application. A large number of UK based divers not only train broad but undertake holiday only diving. This group of divers would be exceptionally difficult to keep records for any one whom wishes to administer such a list of qualified divers.
The research undertaken as to why divers leave BSAC shows that it is due to a number of factors.
For example a change in lifestyle, hobby, children, work, health and financial being the most commonly recorded. The vast majority of those divers that have been in BSAC who have not renewed their membership, told BSAC when surveyed, that they had a positive opinion to BSAC and it?s training.
I am standing down from council in May 05 and the issue of a register of a qualified divers may addressed by the new council at a future date. You may also wish to promote your idea concerning a register of qualified divers to the new council?
If you would like to discus the points you raise further please feel free to phone me 07721 349310.
Rob Higgie

BSAC National Council membership services.




:=:=Hi,
:=:=
:=:=I wonder if anyone can help. I am posting this on behalf of my mother. I will be going away on a dive trip to Malta in August and thinking about treating mum to a holiday at the same time. It occurred to me that she trained with BSAC many many moons ago, but she no longer has any of the paperwork, is there any way she can get hold of new paperwork to prove her certification so she can dive. I am ware she may also need a refresher or something, can any help, and ideas?
:=:=
:=:=Ian
:=Dear Ian
:=
:=I am currently on BSAC council in membership services. I would be happy to assist you trace your mothers records. Please could you email me ( <a href="mailto:rhiggie@tiscali.co.uk">rhiggie@tiscali.co.uk</a> ) as much background info? Branch or town were the training took place, Name maiden name if known by that when training and BOD.
:=This will assist Trina McDonald BSAC Membership Supervisor to trace your mothers details.
:=Kind Regards
:=
:=
:=Rob Higgie
:=BSAC Council

Rob
It would be extremely useful if there was a database maintained at HQ. I know, from previous posts, that there is a Data Protection issue, but more and more I'm finding lapsed members wishing to join our branch. We do all the usual check dives etc., but when a class 2 diver joins you and the best you can offer him is Sports diver, after a theory check and check dives, then things are not right. I fully accept, as does the diver in question, that 'revision' is very much appropriate in such a case but he HAS qualified to a higher level.

Cheers
Kev

[rob higgie]

:
Edward
Thanks for the info your knowledge of DP is greater than mine! I will amend my posting to advise that they contact BSAC membership themselves.
Rob
=Rob

I'm afraid your offer is in violation of the DP legislation. Only Ian's mother can request her information.

Sorry to be the barer of bad news, but a as Director you are personally liable for DP compliance of BSAC ltd. (Even Secretary's of State have fallen foul of this one.)

Edward

:=Dear Ian
:=
:=I am currently on BSAC council in membership services. I would be happy to assist you trace your mothers records. Please could you email me ( <a href="mailto:rhiggie@tiscali.co.uk">rhiggie@tiscali.co.uk</a> ) as much background info? Branch or town were the training took place, Name maiden name if known by that when training and BOD.
:=This will assist Trina McDonald BSAC Membership Supervisor to trace your mothers details.
:=Kind Regards
:=
:=
:=Rob Higgie
:=BSAC Council

[Andy Wade]

Hi Kev
Many thanks for your posting.
Second-class diver grade was before my time as I have only been diving since 1999. When the world has been Ocean Diver ect. This in turn meant that I have had to take advice from membership at BSAC HQ this afternoon. They confirm to me that a second-class diver would rejoin as a Dive Leader.

I think that's wrong.
And I don't care what they've said at HQ, they've simply got it wrong.
Advanced Diver was definitely equivalent to Second Class Diver when they changed the training system at the end of the eighties, in fact IIRC it required more to get Second Class than Advanced Diver at the time.
If they've changed it, then they're pulling the ladder up IMO.

The change occured before Dive Leader was introduced, much later in the history of the training system.

However I feel that; after a considerable lay off period any diver should under take a skills and knowledge refresher and be allowed to be advised by the DO of his branch as what type of diving they undertake until their skills reach the level they once were.

Couldn't agree more with the refresher bit, but they should be allocated the qualification they originally achieved, then asked to re-attain the skills and theory knowledge. AFAIK your BSAC Diver qualification doesn't expire with lapsed membership, unlike instructor qualifications.

Andy.
Snorkel Diver.
Third Class Diver
Second Class Diver
Advanced Diver
First Class Diver


.

[David Walker]

Couldn't agree more with the refresher bit, but they should be allocated the qualification they originally achieved, then asked to re-attain the skills and theory knowledge.

But if they don't have anything to say that they're a diver of whatever level, then how do you give them that recognition? I'm sure that if he did have the cert then it wouldn't be a problem to dive at that level, and if BSAC were able to issue a new certification then it would be of the same level, but with no proof you can't just go on their word and give them an Advanced Diver sticker if you have no idea who they are or where the trained or anything.

The moral of the story? Keep a copy of your qualifications! I have scanned copies of every page of the QRB kept on my computer - and got one of the little plastic cards for when I go abroad, save carrying my paper training record around with me.

David

[Dave]

The moral of the story? Keep a copy of your qualifications! I have scanned copies of every page of the QRB kept on my computer - and got one of the little plastic cards for when I go abroad, save carrying my paper training record around with me.


I would say that the moral ofthe story is that BSAC, like other agencies, should keep records of all certifications so that in the future others who have the same problem can get their qualifications replaced

Dave

[Tony Johnson]

I think that's wrong.
And I don't care what they've said at HQ, they've simply got it wrong.

Absolutely - Advanced Diver was introduced as a direct equivalent to 2nd class. I am not aware of anything having occured to change this equivalence since then. If somebody at HQ believes otherwise, then they need to be challenged to produce chapter and verse of exactly when, how and why such a change was introduced.

Tony Johnson

[David Walker]

I would say that the moral ofthe story is that BSAC, like other agencies, should keep records of all certifications so that in the future others who have the same problem can get their qualifications replaced

Maybe that too, but as BSAC don't award qualifications centrally like the other agencies it will probably mean lots of paperwork for clubs who do a lot of training. And in reality, what benefit does it give? OK if someone loses their qualification book then they can get it replaced, but what else? Is that the only reason to do it? Most clubs keep their own records of training carried out, so there seems to be little reason to do it centrally.

David

[TerryH]

Maybe that too, but as BSAC don't award qualifications centrally like the other agencies it will probably mean lots of paperwork for clubs who do a lot of training. And in reality, what benefit does it give? OK if someone loses their qualification book then they can get it replaced, but what else? Is that the only reason to do it? Most clubs keep their own records of training carried out, so there seems to be little reason to do it centrally.


Sorry David, very much disagree. BSAC knows our grade at
renewal. Even if I'm Johnny Keen and do another couple of
certs after that, it's still better than nothing. As for
extra dosh, hardly. The info is on the database, the only
cost would be the process of searching/informing the
member and that i'm sure is very much under customer services.

Pity the diver isnt PADI. I can access the PADI-pro site
right now, punch in name + DOB and get the current diver
grade. That's worldwide BTW :-)

TerryH

[David Walker]

Sorry David, very much disagree. BSAC knows our grade at
renewal. Even if I'm Johnny Keen and do another couple of
certs after that, it's still better than nothing. As for
extra dosh, hardly. The info is on the database, the only
cost would be the process of searching/informing the
member and that i'm sure is very much under customer services.

Are these verified and reliable though? I know that not all Membership Secretaries check all the qualifications of everyone before they send the form off every year, and you could get people on the database with higher qualifications than they really have. It'd have to have some kind of paperwork that the DO signs and sends off to BSAC after someone completes a particular qual otherwise it'd be open to all kind of abuse. It might not take much, but its one more form that has to be filled in.
It would be nice to have if it could be done reliably, quickly, easily, and with some integrity, but whats the benefit of it? Other than lost qualifications and booking onto instructor events I can't see much benefit other than just being able to say "we know what quals our members have".

If it can be done easily and through a fairly 'secure' method then it'd be useful to have, but not worth the extra paper work otherwise I don't think. For now the time spent on IT projects would be better spent improving the website (which I believe is being done now) than even quick changes to databases and forms and everything to do with it.

David

[Edward Haynes]

In my old, old blue book 2nd class is CMAS 3 star.

In my blue book (printed 9.84) AD is CMAS 3 star.

Edward

[Tony Dwyer]

:=I would say that the moral ofthe story is that BSAC, like other agencies, should keep records of all certifications so that in the future others who have the same problem can get their qualifications replaced

Maybe that too, but as BSAC don't award qualifications centrally like the other agencies it will probably mean lots of paperwork for clubs who do a lot of training. And in reality, what benefit does it give? OK if someone loses their qualification book then they can get it replaced, but what else? Is that the only reason to do it? Most clubs keep their own records of training carried out, so there seems to be little reason to do it centrally.

David

Record keeping is easy, we do it with a simple ACCESS database, which if required could easily encompass every BSAC member.

That said, before I took over as Training Officer, record keeping was iffy at best. Paperwork systems tend to be harder to manage than those worked via a computer system. It's also important to ensure that all signoffs are recorded. We put the onus on the signing instructor to inform the Training Officer (me) or my assistant, which element has been completed.
IF BSAC adopted a simple database system that could be made available to clubs, it would be a simple matter for every club to upload a record set on a regular basis. I should think that most clubs have PCs available to them by now.
Over time, it could build a comprehensive training record for the majority of its members. Provided regular backups were taken, it could be largely self managing.

I would have thought that maintaining such data would be a good idea, given the litigious world we live in today. It could be of value in the event of legal action.

Expecting clubs to be the ultimate record keeping resource is in my view a flawed concept. What happens to the records when a club folds. Many have, I'd bet strongly that their records have mostly been consigned to a tip.

[TerryH]

Are these verified and reliable though? I know that not all Membership Secretaries check all the qualifications of everyone before they send the form off every year, and you could get people on the database with higher qualifications than they really have. It'd have to have some kind of paperwork that the DO signs and sends off to BSAC after someone completes a particular qual otherwise it'd be open to all kind of abuse. It might not take much, but its one more form that has to be filled in.:=

You (the member) have to sign the form prior to the sec
sending it back. So the onus is on you to make sure it's
right and upto date. Easy way to ensure that, is to make it
a condition that the information on the form MUST be correct
on the renewal date to have insurance. You can add a caveat
that in expectional circumstances etc, but I cant see how
checking your own renewal form once a year is that difficult.

As for extra work, there is none. You already have a form now
with your grade and the computer collates the info.

TerryH

[Kevin Miller]

So we establish that my 2nd Class Diver should be an Advanced Diver, or have we? Having tried to get records from his previous club(s) I find that due to there being a large gap in his diving no current records exist. One of the previous clubs has folded, the other, a University club, &gt;15years ago has no records of him. He has lost his blue book. The only option open to him under the current system is to start again, if I'm correct.
To say that he should of kept duplicate copies, in this case, is folly. He didn't. As his QRB was probably lost in a house move, so could the copies if he had made them. Copies of his qualifications at his branches, if they were kept, have also proved pointless. The Uni may well have kept them for a period of time, then disposed of them. The other club has folded so there is no one to contact. There is only one way forward. Central records. I know little or nothing of the Data protection Act but surely when a diver completes a qualification a form, paper or electronic, could be submitted to BSAC containing the new qualification and permission to have the data stored in electronic form. If a branch officer stores records of a member on a computer, is that not also in breach of the Act? Hands up if your branch does, be it qualifications or a contacts list etc.
I must stress that, in this case, the diver in question, has no problem in starting his training again and working his way back up to his previous grade. He feels that it is only right given the 'time off' he has had. Good for him I say. It does not alter the fact that he has qualified to a far higher level and we, as a branch, are unable to verify this.

Cheers
Kev

In my old, old blue book 2nd class is CMAS 3 star.

In my blue book (printed 9.84) AD is CMAS 3 star.

Edward

[janos]

If a branch officer stores records of a member on a computer, is that not also in breach of the Act? Hands up if your branch does, be it qualifications or a contacts list etc.

When you join our branch, there's a little bit on the membership form that says we will store your records on our database and that they will be made available to the committee and other branch members or the purpose of administering the club. (I don't have the exact words to hand).

AIUI, there's no problem with the DPA if people consent to having their data stored.

Janos

[Kevin Miller]

:=If a branch officer stores records of a member on a computer, is that not also in breach of the Act? Hands up if your branch does, be it qualifications or a contacts list etc.

When you join our branch, there's a little bit on the membership form that says we will store your records on our database and that they will be made available to the committee and other branch members or the purpose of administering the club. (I don't have the exact words to hand).

AIUI, there's no problem with the DPA if people consent to having their data stored.

Janos

Exactly my point Janos. I fail to see the difference between a branch and HQ storing the data .

Kev

[Nigel Hewitt]

It would be extremely useful if there was a database maintained at HQ.

Then somebody could have said "SELECT grade, expiry, medical FROM members WHERE id=719913" and I wouldn't have to send a whole lot of paper off to get on an SE region SDC when I can book it and pay for it online.

Again.

*sulk*

[Nigel Hewitt]

*bangs head against wall*

You discovered *Edit* Right?
Well further down the page is *Delete*.

[David Walker]

You discovered *Edit* Right?
Well further down the page is *Delete*.

Quite well hidden away though to be fair - you'd have to scroll down past what you would logically expect to be on the 'edit' page (ie the edit box and submit button) to find the 'delete' button.
I was actually about to post a reply suggesting that there may be a bug whereby some people can't see the delete button, as i couldn't find it, but then noticed it below the edit stuff. :O)

David

[matt]

Record keeping is easy, we do it with a simple ACCESS database, which if required could easily encompass every BSAC member.

You know MSAccess is not exactly famed for it's upsizing ability! I don't know what experience you have with large scale multi-user MSAccess implementations Tony - mine have all been bad.

That said, before I took over as Training Officer, record keeping was iffy at best. Paperwork systems tend to be harder to manage than those worked via a computer system.

IMVHO it depends who is operating the system.

IF BSAC adopted a simple database system that could be made available to clubs, it would be a simple matter for every club to upload a record set on a regular basis. I should think that most clubs have PCs available to them by now.

It may sound simple but multi-site, offline, asynchronous, record creation and synchronisation (which is what you are talking about) rarely is. Just consider the problem of unique IDs. Either head office has to allocate them in advance, like car registrations. Or you need to create a temporary ID at the remote site, import the record and create a permanent ID at the central Db, pass the permanent ID back to the remote db for synching with the remote record...everytime there is a transaction on the record. Some years ago I was involved with a project for an accountants which presented a similar problem. Their little internal MSAccess project turned into a 150K bespoke project. It would have cost about half that had they not started down the MSAccess road.

Over time, it could build a comprehensive training record for the majority of its members. Provided regular backups were taken, it could be largely self managing.

I agree with you that the benefits are worthwhile. What I disagree with is that it is 'simple'

[Tony Dwyer]

*bangs head against wall*

You discovered *Edit* Right?
Well further down the page is *Delete*.

My head is sore! & hanging in shame.

Y'know, in all the time I've been using this board, I never scrolled down that far!

I'm gonna go away and cry now.

[Andy Wade]

:=*bangs head against wall*
:=
:=You discovered *Edit* Right?
:=Well further down the page is *Delete*.

My head is sore! & hanging in shame.

Y'know, in all the time I've been using this board, I never scrolled down that far!

Scared to venture that far down into the edit page? Maybe you need to go on an EDFT - 'extended diving forum techniques' course...

I'm gonna go away and cry now.

There there.
;-)

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Scared to venture that far down into the edit page? Maybe you need to go on an EDFT - 'extended diving forum techniques' course...

That sounds a bit like the "BSAC Anorak SDC" that I give to new Council members to bring them up to speed with the way Council works and give them half a clue what I'm talking about ;-)

Keith L

[Tony Dwyer]

:=Record keeping is easy, we do it with a simple ACCESS database, which if required could easily encompass every BSAC member.

You know MSAccess is not exactly famed for it's upsizing ability! I don't know what experience you have with large scale multi-user MSAccess implementations Tony - mine have all been bad.

I use it all the time for rapid mobile data analysis, with simple reasonably flat tables. One such, currently in use has over 200,000 ACTIVE records. I have NEVER had a problem with data integrity.

:=That said, before I took over as Training Officer, record keeping was iffy at best. Paperwork systems tend to be harder to manage than those worked via a computer system.

IMVHO it depends who is operating the system.

Absolutely!

:=IF BSAC adopted a simple database system that could be made available to clubs, it would be a simple matter for every club to upload a record set on a regular basis. I should think that most clubs have PCs available to them by now.

It may sound simple but multi-site, offline, asynchronous, record creation and synchronisation (which is what you are talking about) rarely is. Just consider the problem of unique IDs. Either head office has to allocate them in advance, like car registrations. Or you need to create a temporary ID at the remote site, import the record and create a permanent ID at the central Db, pass the permanent ID back to the remote db for synching with the remote record...everytime there is a transaction on the record. Some years ago I was involved with a project for an accountants which presented a similar problem. Their little internal MSAccess project turned into a 150K bespoke project. It would have cost about half that had they not started down the MSAccess road.

We operate a simple system that allows data to be transferred between systems for update. The D/O, Training Officer, Treasurer and Equipment Officer each have their own installations, each with specific rights to particular data elements. Data transfer is via email sending a simple CSV file that is a one button import to update each respective database. It may be crude by commercial SQL/Oracle standards, but it works and has proven to be reliable overe the last 4 years.

It does not require complex communication access to setup. Just a PC at each location with email capability.

With regard to ID's. We use names of course but also the members BSAC number. It takes a little effort to ensure that the number is added to the individuals record when it is allocated by HQ. Not difficult.

:=Over time, it could build a comprehensive training record for the majority of its members. Provided regular backups were taken, it could be largely self managing.

I could have gone down the SQL road and built a complex custom system. The problems with that were mostly to do with cost. Maintenance is also an issue. If I am suddenly no longer available, another IT bod would be needed to ensure the ongoing integrity of the database. With our system, any halfway bright individual could figure it out, even if I hadn't left any notes. The few tables are straightforward as are the various queris and macros.


I agree with you that the benefits are worthwhile. What I disagree with is that it is 'simple'


Everything is relative. Our system cost nothing apart from licences and a bit of my time. I believe strongly in the KISS principle.

[Tony Dwyer]

:=Scared to venture that far down into the edit page? Maybe you need to go on an EDFT - 'extended diving forum techniques' course...

That sounds a bit like the "BSAC Anorak SDC" that I give to new Council members to bring them up to speed with the way Council works and give them half a clue what I'm talking about ;-)

Keith L

I'll sign up for that, when are you running the next one? ;&gt;

[matt]

I use it all the time for rapid mobile data analysis, with simple reasonably flat tables. One such, currently in use has over 200,000 ACTIVE records. I have NEVER had a problem with data integrity.

Well it sounds like MSAccess is fine for your application.

The number of records is only part of the story. Access is pretty good at handling long, narrow tables. It starts to slow down as fields and tables become wider. It does not handle table joins, more complicated than a simple one to one, particularly well either.

Where it really gets interesting is when you have more than two or three users accessing the same .mdb file across a network, editing records in linked tables. Without a centralised transaction processor it is almost inevitable that the indexing is going to get screwed up. This is one of the big problems with sharing a desktop database system across a network. Desktop systems also need to regularly move large chunks of data to and from the PCs processor. If the processor and data are separated by a network cable it becomes very inefficient and relatively slow.

We operate a simple system that allows data to be transferred between systems for update...

Are you making your app available to other branches?

I could have gone down the SQL road and built a complex custom system. The problems with that were mostly to do with cost.

A desktop system is more appropriate for branch use. It might be worth making your application available as un-supported code, so that other branches can use it if they find it useful. HQ probably need something a little more flexible than MSAccess.

Everything is relative. Our system cost nothing apart from licences and a bit of my time. I believe strongly in the KISS principle.

My own branch is currently using an Excel spreadsheet to handle membership ;-) I would be very interested in seeing your application Tony.

[Tony Dwyer]

:=I use it all the time for rapid mobile data analysis, with simple reasonably flat tables. One such, currently in use has over 200,000 ACTIVE records. I have NEVER had a problem with data integrity.

Well it sounds like MSAccess is fine for your application.

The number of records is only part of the story. Access is pretty good at handling long, narrow tables. It starts to slow down as fields and tables become wider. It does not handle table joins, more complicated than a simple one to one, particularly well either.

I agree.

Where it really gets interesting is when you have more than two or three users accessing the same .mdb file across a network, editing records in linked tables. Without a centralised transaction processor it is almost inevitable that the indexing is going to get screwed up. This is one of the big problems with sharing a desktop database system across a network. Desktop systems also need to regularly move large chunks of data to and from the PCs processor. If the processor and data are separated by a network cable it becomes very inefficient and relatively slow.

Funny you should mention that, I have a client with just such a problem. (I didn't build it!)
Since we aren't using multiple access, but only a single PC per data station, it simply isn't a problem for our club.

:=We operate a simple system that allows data to be transferred between systems for update...

Are you making your app available to other branches?

Certainly, I'd have to set up a copy with the data stripped first. Wouldn't take long.

:=I could have gone down the SQL road and built a complex custom system. The problems with that were mostly to do with cost.

A desktop system is more appropriate for branch use. It might be worth making your application available as un-supported code, so that other branches can use it if they find it useful. HQ probably need something a little more flexible than MSAccess.

It's not compiled. Everything is out in the open.
I agree with your comment on HQ, but a simple record keeping system would be a doddle to set up, if one wasn't thinking about remote access by an undefined number of users.

:=Everything is relative. Our system cost nothing apart from licences and a bit of my time. I believe strongly in the KISS principle.

My own branch is currently using an Excel spreadsheet to handle membership ;-) I would be very interested in seeing your application Tony.

You are welcome to a copy. It's currently running under Access 2000. Give me a short while to sort out a set of user / install notes and I'll be happy to send it to you. Mostly using it is a matter of following a set process.

I'll need your email addr. You can email me via our club info account on <a href="mailto:info@basildonsubaqua.com">info@basildonsubaqua.com</a>

[David Walker]

:=:=IF BSAC adopted a simple database system that could be made available to clubs, it would be a simple matter for every club to upload a record set on a regular basis. I should think that most clubs have PCs available to them by now.

Hehe, could see that going horribly wrong! I prefer Keith's "if we're going to do it we're going to do it right" philospohy. Having hundreds of copies of various parts of the whole BSAC membership system flying around the world would cause all kinds of problems - no security, no consistency, no ability to control who is updating what, and no validation that data is correct. What about clubs who don't have easy access to computers, or the internet, or particularly if just the secretary doesn't? You'd have some club's records bang-up-to-date, and others that were 20 years out of date - you can't force them to keep updating the information.

We operate a simple system that allows data to be transferred between systems for update. The D/O, Training Officer, Treasurer and Equipment Officer each have their own installations, each with specific rights to particular data elements. Data transfer is via email sending a simple CSV file that is a one button import to update each respective database. It may be crude by commercial SQL/Oracle standards, but it works and has proven to be reliable overe the last 4 years.

Scale that up to hundreds of clubs though and you'll have problems, not least having someone to keep exporting the bits of data needed and then merging them again, while ensuring that it has all been done correctly, and saved in the correct format! What if there is a dive club affiliated with the "we hate Microsoft" club, they're not going to have Access, and doing it through CSV may not be good for some clubs where people may not be very computer literate.

All our stuff is available through the back end of our website now, to the committee, instructors, members, etc, but even that (on a Microsoft SQL server) I wouldn't trust to scale up to national-proportions without a lot more testing and optimisation. It works fine now running our website and membership stuff, but it's scaling that always finds the crucial flaws in databases and things like that.

With regard to ID's. We use names of course but also the members BSAC number. It takes a little effort to ensure that the number is added to the individuals record when it is allocated by HQ. Not difficult.

Until one is mistyped or the end digit gets accidentally deleted somewhere and your whole primary key is invalid. Without data validation on input you might not notice until it reaches HQ - and to have the validation means everyone having Access which is far from a given - I think you need Office Professional to get Access, which the average home user won't have.

Maintenance is also an issue. If I am suddenly no longer available, another IT bod would be needed to ensure the ongoing integrity of the database.

Not a problem for HQ though we'd hope :O)

David

[Tony Dwyer]

:=:=:=IF BSAC adopted a simple database system that could be made available to clubs, it would be a simple matter for every club to upload a record set on a regular basis. I should think that most clubs have PCs available to them by now.

Hehe, could see that going horribly wrong! I prefer Keith's "if we're going to do it we're going to do it right" philospohy. Having hundreds of copies of various parts of the whole BSAC membership system flying around the world would cause all kinds of problems - no security, no consistency, no ability to control who is updating what, and no validation that data is correct. What about clubs who don't have easy access to computers, or the internet, or particularly if just the secretary doesn't? You'd have some club's records bang-up-to-date, and others that were 20 years out of date - you can't force them to keep updating the information.

I also prefer Keith's model, but you are making a few assumptions without understanding the design. Where pray tell did I state that security, consistency and validation weren't important.
I seriously doubt if there are many, if any, clubs out there without internet and email capability.
I agree with your comment that one cannot force clubs to keep data up to date. Some of them ain't doing it now. Online update will take quite a while to pay off, but it eventually will.

:=We operate a simple system that allows data to be transferred between systems for update. The D/O, Training Officer, Treasurer and Equipment Officer each have their own installations, each with specific rights to particular data elements. Data transfer is via email sending a simple CSV file that is a one button import to update each respective database. It may be crude by commercial SQL/Oracle standards, but it works and has proven to be reliable overe the last 4 years.

Scale that up to hundreds of clubs though and you'll have problems, not least having someone to keep exporting the bits of data needed and then merging them again, while ensuring that it has all been done correctly, and saved in the correct format! What if there is a dive club affiliated with the "we hate Microsoft" club, they're not going to have Access, and doing it through CSV may not be good for some clubs where people may not be very computer literate.

Generally I agree, but careful design can work wonders.

It needn't be Microsoft specific.
In our working system, data traffic is one way. If the design is right, it works. Since the system spits out data in a pre-defined way, there is no difficulty with data recipients loading the updated tables.
The system needn't depend on Access, it could be MSDE based or a number of alternative systems.

All our stuff is available through the back end of our website now, to the committee, instructors, members, etc, but even that (on a Microsoft SQL server) I wouldn't trust to scale up to national-proportions without a lot more testing and optimisation. It works fine now running our website and membership stuff, but it's scaling that always finds the crucial flaws in databases and things like that.

Yup!

We've toyed a bit with the idea of migrating the data to our website, but don't think the potential additional grief justifies it.

:=With regard to ID's. We use names of course but also the members BSAC number. It takes a little effort to ensure that the number is added to the individuals record when it is allocated by HQ. Not difficult.

Until one is mistyped or the end digit gets accidentally deleted somewhere and your whole primary key is invalid. Without data validation on input you might not notice until it reaches HQ - and to have the validation means everyone having Access which is far from a given - I think you need Office Professional to get Access, which the average home user won't have.

Why should typing be involved. If HQ send me a data set (or I download it) it should be fine. Building in a checking protocol should be easy.
I already said that the system needn't be Access based. it could be a nifty front end to a MSDE, SQL - or you name it data set.

The core of my suggestion was to have a simple central data archive that could be trawled to find historical certification info. It was not suggested to be an all singing & dancing multi-interactive whizzie system. Keith appears to have that thoroughly in hand.

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

[Warning ?geek content!]

Just a word about Microsoft Access for remote access/distributed systems ? DON?T! MSAccess is a brilliant end user desktop tool but that?s all it is, a single user desktop tool. Don?t try to run it on networks because it murders them, it gets very upset in volatile (multiple addition/deletion) and/or multi-user situations. It is theoretically capable of handling the volumes needed by the BSAC, I?ve run MSAccess up into the millions of rows, but no way would I consider it for corporate use.

Currently at HQ our primary system is an ancient Visual FoxPro database system. It does the very basics, it keep running, but all it does is membership and it doesn?t do that very well. To process the additional requirements such as ITS, SDC?s and the myriad of other database requirements the HQ staff have developed their own small MSAccess systems. We also have a SQL Server, I use that to run an internal intranet and a management information system (both SQL and OLAP) on a translated version of the FoxPro membership database. So what we currently have at HQ is the classic SME ?disease? of isolated systems with the usual problems of compatibility, synchronisation and integrity that such organically grown systems entail.

The first phase is to pull that little lot together into a single, corporate database (it will use the SQL Server) capable of processing all of those requirements in one place with a common data source. When we?ve got that cracked we?ll move onto phase 2, this is where selected items will be published into a restricted (verified members only) web based system. This will probably be a parallel system running in the HQ DMZ with interrogation and updates available to suitably authorised user (it will need multiple security levels) via a browser interface, the back office software will need to handle all of the replication and synchronisation between the web and the back office systems. This is complex stuff :-)

What I want to end up with is every member having access to a ?My BSAC? personal web page at HQ where they can update us on things, tell us about alternative addresses and such, subscribe themselves to specialist mailing lists and email alerts. Selected branch officers (e.g. membership secretaries) will be able to keep us up-to-date electronically on things like diver grades awarded, renewing members, new members, branch officers ? everything they do now manually but with the option of doing it directly on the HQ systems.

Don?t get confused between remote access and distributed systems. I?m talking about remote access here, distributed systems whereby remote disconnected complete systems are provided ( e.g. all your branch records on a laptop) is not something that I feel is viable for the BSAC to try and do centrally. What I do however hope to provide is simple things like .csv (compatible with most software) file extracts so that branches can ?roll their own? systems if they want to. I am not intending at this stage to provide batch file updates back into the BSAC systems.

Many people have said to me ?why don?t you use the web server??, I have a simple one word answer to that as well ? SECURITY! Due to bandwidth and resilience requirements we do not have the capacity at HQ to host major web systems (we can do smaller stuff like the things above) so our main web server is co-located. I personally am not willing to place confidential membership information on a system not directly under our control. So that?s why I haven?t done it, the confidential membership information does NOT leave HQ where we have total control over the physical and electronic security of that information. There is in fact only one copy of the HQ databases outside of HQ, that copy is here (so that I can do development and analysis work on it) on my own secure systems under my direct personal control.

Remember guys ? this type of stuff is what I do for a living :-) I?ve been involved in a whole range of such systems for huge multi-national corporate systems with databases thousands of times bigger than the BSAC down to web enabled bespoke membership systems such as the one I?m designing for a client of mine much smaller than the BSAC right now. It?s a case of been there, done that, got the battle scars to prove it! Which is why I am taking my time and doing it PROPERLY for the BSAC. There?s nobody within Council or HQ who have been through this process to the best of my knowledge (there is within the IT Team), I?ve seen systems like this go t*ts up in the past due to mistakes that I?m not going to let happen to us. There is a not insubstantial amount of members money involved here, I?ve got to make sure that it is wisely spent and is actually an investment for the future by the club.

I haven?t been giving updates on this as it?s work-in-progress, as you will probably realise by now it?s actually been my long term strategy to get such a system into the BSAC but we started from a pretty low base and I?ve had to slowly piece the jigsaw together to build up to the complete picture. Also it?s not really diving related, it?s just one of the many background tasks dealt with by the IT Team that are essential to keeping the club running and improving member facilities. But you did ask so I thought you might be interested in what us geeks get up to behind your backs :-)

Regards

Keith L

[Edward Haynes]

Hi all

A word of caution for this sub-thread on holding and processing member data.

Branches need to comply with all eight principles of the DP legislation; the BSAC Ltd Notification lodged with the Information Commissioner is for the National body only.

Generally branches will not need to have a *Public* Notification, but they still are required to tell individuals how their data is to be collected, processed, secured, transferred and deleted to comply with DP.

A big stumbling block is past members; branches should stay clear of *sensitive* data with its additional safeguard requirements.

Just a reminder

Edward

[Andy Wade]

Hi all

A word of caution for this sub-thread on holding and processing member data.

Branches need to comply with all eight principles of the DP legislation; the BSAC Ltd Notification lodged with the Information Commissioner is for the National body only.

Generally branches will not need to have a *Public* Notification, but they still are required to tell individuals how their data is to be collected, processed, secured, transferred and deleted to comply with DP.

A big stumbling block is past members; branches should stay clear of *sensitive* data with its additional safeguard requirements.

Just a reminder

Thanks for that Edward.
Could you define 'sensitive' in this context?
I mean, could the branch hold details of training dates and qualifications for a past member with just their name attached to it?
I can't see that it would be 'sensitive' in any way if that's all they are holding, purely as an archive for reasons mentioned before.
Telephone numbers and addresses maybe, but surely not training dates?

.

[Tony Dwyer]

[Warning ?geek content!]

Just a word about Microsoft Access for remote access/distributed systems ? DON?T! MSAccess is a brilliant end user desktop tool but that?s all it is, a single user desktop tool. Don?t try to run it on networks because it murders them, it gets very upset in volatile (multiple addition/deletion) and/or multi-user situations. It is theoretically capable of handling the volumes needed by the BSAC, I?ve run MSAccess up into the millions of rows, but no way would I consider it for corporate use.

Absolutely.

But with care it is possible (even easy) to produce stable seperate desktop systems that can send each other data safely. For example, the membership secretary/officer records all contact & renewal data (core data). The Training officer manages relevant data and so on. Each sends an exported file to the other members for import. You end up with a complete data set on each officers PC. Multiple backups if you will. This technique works well but is only suitable for a confined small scale environment, even though it can handle very large amounts of data.
Your suggestion that CSV files may eventually be available to branches fits nicely.

As I said earlier, I believe that you have taken the right approach. I had no intention of stirring a hornets nest.
I've been working in process design for many years and have employed a variety of solutions to data management problems. Personally I've always found it easier to start with a blank sheet of paper!
As you yourself said, in comparison to large scale commercial systems, BSAC's database needs are relatively simple.

[Mike Halligan]

:=A big stumbling block is past members; branches should stay clear of *sensitive* data with its additional safeguard requirements.
:=
Thanks for that Edward.
Could you define 'sensitive' in this context?
I mean, could the branch hold details of training dates and qualifications for a past member with just their name attached to it?
I can't see that it would be 'sensitive' in any way if that's all they are holding, purely as an archive for reasons mentioned before.
Telephone numbers and addresses maybe, but surely not training dates?

Andy,

IMHO, the principles are observed if we retain, say, forename, surname, membership number and then "grades passed and when". Possibly for the first few years after a member departs, one might retain work-in-progress dates and lesson codes for a course as yet unfinished.

My guide is "What is material to the purpose?"

If we are securing a helpful stance lest that former member return, or another Branch enquire, then it is responsible to retain this level of data. Even then, we should be careful to keep the data secure against abuse and to sanitise the personal stuff (address, phone numbers, relevant assets - eg 4x4). Upon return, or transfer to another Branch, this data could well be changed and must anyway be validated - so why keep it?

HTH

Mike

[Edward Haynes]

Hi Andy

*sensitive* as defined by the Act:

(a) the racial or ethnic origin of the data subject,

(b) his political opinions,

(c) his religious beliefs or other beliefs of a similar nature,

(d) whether he is a member of a trade union (within the meaning of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992),

(e) his physical or mental health or condition,

(f) his sexual life,

(g) the commission or alleged commission by him of any offence, or

(h) any proceedings for any offence committed or alleged to have been committed by him, the disposal of such proceedings or the sentence of any court in such proceedings.
****

Only (e) and (h) are likely to be relevant.

As Mike has said, any information held must be accurate and it is down to the Date Controller (Branch Committee) to ensure it is.

Nothing preventing the holding of archive data, but you must inform the individuals why you are doing so.

Edward

[Andy Wade]

Thanks Mike and Edward for your replies, that makes it a bit clearer.
So I can take it that if you inform branch members that the branch will retain minimum records of their name and dates of training, purely as an archive in case of lost qualification books and confirmation of qualifications should for example a member move to another branch, then there's no real problem under Data protection. And presumably the branch would agree to remove records for those who don't want this facility kept on file.

Sounds just like being courteous to me.


.

[Tony Dwyer]

Thanks Mike and Edward for your replies, that makes it a bit clearer.
So I can take it that if you inform branch members that the branch will retain minimum records of their name and dates of training, purely as an archive in case of lost qualification books and confirmation of qualifications should for example a member move to another branch, then there's no real problem under Data protection. And presumably the branch would agree to remove records for those who don't want this facility kept on file.

Sounds just like being courteous to me.


.
Precisely what we do.

[Mike Halligan]

Thanks Mike and Edward for your replies, that makes it a bit clearer.
So I can take it that if you inform branch members that the branch will retain minimum records of their name and dates of training, purely as an archive in case of lost qualification books and confirmation of qualifications should for example a member move to another branch, then there's no real problem under Data protection. And presumably the branch would agree to remove records for those who don't want this facility kept on file.

Sounds just like being courteous to me.

Andy,

That's it. Presented in such a positive and helpful manner, just after you've pointed out that there is no other way to reconstruct a lost, stolen or destroyed (by child, fire, or other domestic animal / natural disaster) QRB, most people will assent to this. If they dissent, then what harm is done by destroying the records in front of them as they leave? IN fact, you cannot store personal data without the subject's permission. If you cannot talk permission from the member, you must decide how much you want the data (or how much you want the member) as something is going to have to give.

The point is that personal data are just that, personal. I have the right of determination over my personal data but not over yours. I may grant the Branch's Membership Secretary, D.O. and T.O. limited access to my data, and elect not to grant them rights of disclosure. The legislation is not restricted to electronic record systems, but applies equally to manual systems (card indices, contact lists, etc). I believe, though I'm far from certain, that personal diary / addressbook type records are outwith the Act, so long as the data were gleaned personally by you from the data subject.

I'm obliged to disclose certain data to the BSAC and they are then held according to the BSAC's notification (hence, Keith's care in securing them). Their visibility to others during their processing at the Branch does not grant those others a right of retention in a retrieval system without my explicit permission. Equally, if I turn chopsy over this, the Branch can shove me toward BSAC Direct.

If you want to hold personal data in-Branch, you must either shelter within the BSAC's notification (Ask Edward or Keith for permission, do not presume you have it), make suitable notification yourself, or remain strictly within one or more of the exemptions (Again ask Edward, he knows far better than I).

Hope this helps,

Mike

[David Walker]

If you want to hold personal data in-Branch, you must either shelter within the BSAC's notification (Ask Edward or Keith for permission, do not presume you have it), make suitable notification yourself, or remain strictly within one or more of the exemptions (Again ask Edward, he knows far better than I).

If I remember rightly from last year when I was building up our Branch database, you don't need any kind of official notifications unless you have some unusual circumstances (commercial affiliations maybe?). For a voluntary club, you have to comply with the 'fundamentals' of the DPA, but don't need any notification. These fundamentals are what was mentioned earlier, notably things like getting permission, only storing what is 'necessary', making sure only those who need access get access, and not storing sensitive data, that kind of thing. Complying with the DPA is actually relatively simple for a club, just follow the principles of the act and you should be fine.
I do remember having some problems myself when I was doing this, but that was mostly down to confusion about what applied and what didn't, with the University initially insisting that we also came under the Freedom of Information act which added further restrictions, but we later clarified that that didn't affect what we wanted to do.

Basically, what I found was that unless your branch structure is somewhat unusual, just follow the DPA and you'll be fine.

David

[Mike Halligan]

If I remember rightly from last year when I was building up
Basically, what I found was that unless your branch structure is somewhat unusual, just follow the DPA and you'll be fine.

Couldn't agree more.

If we stay within one or more of the exemptions from notification, yet always operate within the "principles" -
e.g.
private group keeping own data only,
by permission of the data subject,
keeping it only for known purposes,
without disclosure to others, and
retaining only whilst material
- then we should be safe, and as Andy points up, courteous.

The Information Commissioner's officers are well happy to leave you alone if you keep out of their hair in this way.

Mike