View Full Version : DO responsibility
I have recently learned that, even if a dive is nothing to do with the club, the club DO is still responsible for any previous training, and therefore may say that you shouldn't do a dive in order to legally protect themselves. If you had done the BSAC Ocean Diver course, and then chose to do a PADI Advanced Open Water Diver course, the DO wouldn't be responsible any more would they, as the qualification that is letting you do the dive is the AOW?
James
I think yo are refering to this (http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=1724§ionTitle=Dive+Definitions).
Gareth
James, surely if you are now contemplating doing a PADI course it means you are moving away from you BSAC club, you obviously have your own reason fot this and therefore has nothing to do with the BSAC club.
Nigel Hewitt
23-03-2010, 21:31
I think yo are refering to this (http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=1724§ionTitle=Dive+Definitions).
I love that page:
Case: Diving outside "Safe Diving"
Scare story: Member is not able to dispense with legal responsibility of “duty of care".
Example: Solo Diving.
Is it just me that sees a contradiction here?
So James is considering AOW? It's a quick way to get a 30m ticket.
The modern welcoming BSAC allows for the mix-and-match diver. A lot of my club have gone that way.
You don't walk away from the club by plugging in an outside qualification.
I have recently learned that, even if a dive is nothing to do with the club, the club DO is still responsible for any previous training, and therefore may say that you shouldn't do a dive in order to legally protect themselves. If you had done the BSAC Ocean Diver course, and then chose to do a PADI Advanced Open Water Diver course, the DO wouldn't be responsible any more would they, as the qualification that is letting you do the dive is the AOW?
I think the DO's responsibility is not defined by your qualifications. If you join a BSAC club with other agency qualifications then the DO still has responsibility for ensuring you dive safely.
If you still are part of the club, but do your AOW, they would still have the same responsiblity for your diving, but of course you would be qualified to 30m.
Janos
Ed Howarth
23-03-2010, 22:22
And if, heaven forbid, you die on a dive, your DO (indeed all your DOs) may be called to give evidence at the inquest as one of the people who was responsible for your training.
It happened to a DO friend of mine who had a minor involvement in training a largely PADI trained diver.
Ed
ianfirmin
24-03-2010, 13:29
I joined a BSAC club as an AOW and then finished my PADI Rescue diver and got my SD qualification that way. Quite a few people do it.
I'm still a member of the same club....
Nigel Hewitt
24-03-2010, 13:51
We need to be sensible about this. The DO is usually a good resource of diving knowledge to a novice and he will tell you not to do certain dives for good reasons. However this is advice as he has no power to stop you unless you're planning on using his kit or diving off his boat.
My general take on this is 'give the guy a break'. His advice is worth listening too and rushing out and plugging in extra outside qualifications may seem like a quick fix but it doesn't mean he'll trust you to immediately max out your new card on a club dive. A DO's nightmare is hauling a guy out cold and knowing that it's his job to tell the family.
The real problem comes at the other end of the age scale. You saw your DO do OD/SD/DL and now he's telling you things? I approve of DOs but sometimes I have to be careful on that one. My current trick is to only tell them about the more extreme dives after the event. I reason they can't be held responsible for training that goes beyond BSAC's limits and for dives they don't know about.
Andy Moll (BSAC Council)
25-03-2010, 12:35
I have recently learned that, even if a dive is nothing to do with the club, the club DO is still responsible for any previous training, and therefore may say that you shouldn't do a dive in order to legally protect themselves. If you had done the BSAC Ocean Diver course, and then chose to do a PADI Advanced Open Water Diver course, the DO wouldn't be responsible any more would they, as the qualification that is letting you do the dive is the AOW?
Not according to this which is linked from the page Gareth pointed you to
http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=1725§ionTitle=Branch+Dives+%2D+FAQs
Diving Officers are not responsible for the DELIVERY or AWARD of previously awarded qualifications by other DOs. However, by accepting the position of DO they are accepting responsibility for the conduct of training and diving within and by members of their branch.
James, surely if you are now contemplating doing a PADI course it means you are moving away from you BSAC club, you obviously have your own reason fot this and therefore has nothing to do with the BSAC club.
I am not specifically looking to move away from my club and to do a PADI course - I am just interested to see if there is a way to make it so that you are no longer the DOs responsibility for private diving.
We need to be sensible about this. The DO is usually a good resource of diving knowledge to a novice and he will tell you not to do certain dives for good reasons. However this is advice as he has no power to stop you unless you're planning on using his kit or diving off his boat.
My general take on this is 'give the guy a break'. His advice is worth listening too and rushing out and plugging in extra outside qualifications may seem like a quick fix but it doesn't mean he'll trust you to immediately max out your new card on a club dive. A DO's nightmare is hauling a guy out cold and knowing that it's his job to tell the family.
The real problem comes at the other end of the age scale. You saw your DO do OD/SD/DL and now he's telling you things? I approve of DOs but sometimes I have to be careful on that one. My current trick is to only tell them about the more extreme dives after the event. I reason they can't be held responsible for training that goes beyond BSAC's limits and for dives they don't know about.
Completely get your point, but I'm not trying to do this in order to get a deeper qualification, and my DO is a nice bloke, but because he has a legal responsibility for the training that I received, even when doing private diving, it means that he won't let me dive with a couple of my friends who are not members of BSAC and therefore don't have insurance.
Not according to this which is linked from the page Gareth pointed you to
http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=1725§ionTitle=Branch+Dives+%2D+FAQs
Diving Officers are not responsible for the DELIVERY or AWARD of previously awarded qualifications by other DOs. However, by accepting the position of DO they are accepting responsibility for the conduct of training and diving within and by members of their branch.
Even when doing private diving?
Completely get your point, but I'm not trying to do this in order to get a deeper qualification, and my DO is a nice bloke, but because he has a legal responsibility for the training that I received, even when doing private diving, it means that he won't let me dive with a couple of my friends who are not members of BSAC and therefore don't have insurance.
How does he stop you? You go and dive with them there is nothing he can do.
And to be honest as their insurance is there to protect you as their buddy only you are in a position to make the judgement call as to whether that matters.
How does he stop you? You go and dive with them there is nothing he can do.
And to be honest as their insurance is there to protect you as their buddy only you are in a position to make the judgement call as to whether that matters.
With the insurance - that is my point of view. I feel very happy diving with these guys, I'm not doing anything extreme, all within quals and training, and it's only in a quarry...
And as for how he stops me - well, he threatens to kick me out of the club. When I went to FIIC with these guys on Sunday, with Buxton Sub Aqua Club there with boat cover, I thought afterwards that I should send him a text to say that I got back OK, which he said to do whenever doing diving outside the club. Yesterday, I received a lengthly and strongly worded e-mail from him, saying don't do it again.
As much as I would actually like to leave myself as a point of principal, the other members of the club are really nice, and I like diving and just chatting with them. Also, I have a holiday to the Scillies booked with them so...
Nigel Hewitt
25-03-2010, 18:07
Even when doing private diving?
All diving is private diving.
Look the problem is that we don't know you. You might be a total muppet and he's desperatly trying to stop you topping yourself before they manage to drive some sense into you. It's very easy to come over very competant on the web, darn it I do it, but it's in the water that you live or die. Getting another card won't stop your DO having control over your club diving, that's the job he has taken on. I can turn up to dive with all the cards in the world but if the DO says no I'm not diving off the club boat that day. I wouldn't want to be a DO. They have to try and make the best call possible and still know that somebody is always going to take whatever decision they make badly.
All diving is private diving.
Look the problem is that we don't know you. You might be a total muppet and he's desperatly trying to stop you topping yourself before they manage to drive some sense into you. It's very easy to come over very competant on the web, darn it I do it, but it's in the water that you live or die. Getting another card won't stop your DO having control over your club diving, that's the job he has taken on. I can turn up to dive with all the cards in the world but if the DO says no I'm not diving off the club boat that day. I wouldn't want to be a DO. They have to try and make the best call possible and still know that somebody is always going to take whatever decision they make badly.
Again, I know what you're saying, but I'm not bothered about what he lets me do on club diving - its diving outside of the club that I don't really like him saying "Do as I say or I'll kick you out of BSAC".
It's quite ironic really - these two blokes first got me interested in diving, and I learned so that I could dive with them. They recommended BSAC to me rather than an agency, and because of that, I am now not allowed to dive with them.
By these two bloke are you talking about the guys at Buxton or your own club ?
If you want to dive with the guys at Buxton, join their club and leave your current one - job done. Until then your DO has to make the decision he feels is best.
I have recently learned that, even if a dive is nothing to do with the club, the club DO is still responsible for any previous training, and therefore may say that you shouldn't do a dive in order to legally protect themselves. If you had done the BSAC Ocean Diver course, and then chose to do a PADI Advanced Open Water Diver course, the DO wouldn't be responsible any more would they, as the qualification that is letting you do the dive is the AOW?
Hi James,
It would help your understanding if you were to think about the situation from the DO’s point of view.
The Branch Officers’ Handbook (http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=1335§ionTitle=The+Branch+Officers%27+Handbook+-+a+Branch+aid+memoir) may assist you specifically Sections 4.6.3. Diving Independent of a Branch.
As Andy has said your Branch Diving Officer/Lead Instructor is only responsible for training you undertook when they were in the post. Earlier post holders continue to carry the responsibility for training conducted during their term.
If I understand you question properly, you are concerned about training undertaken with another agency? As you’ve mentioned doing the PADI AOW when already qualified as a BSAC OD where do you stand.
I am the DO of Fyne-divers and although I haven’t had this situation I have members whom hold both BSAC and other agency qualifications.
To comply with Save Diving (http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=1019§ionTitle=Safe+Diving) you should dive within the limits of your diver qualification. BSAC OD and PADI AOW are similar, but have some fundamental differences. For example as an OD you are limited to 20m (Max), but an AOW (may) have a 30m limit (40m if the deep specialty has been completed). So what can you dive? Simple really - to the max depth you are certified to (if greater than 20m you must be have a Dive Leader or equivalent as your buddy).
What am I saying. It doesn’t really matter whether you hold BSAC or other agency qualifications your DO has a Duty of Care to consider your (and your buddy’s) safety.
Your DO has the responsibility that you were properly trained from courses provided by the Branch. They can not be responsible for training undertaken outside the Branch (In my opinion), e.g. PADI courses.
HTH
Edward
Again, I know what you're saying, but I'm not bothered about what he lets me do on club diving - its diving outside of the club that I don't really like him saying "Do as I say or I'll kick you out of BSAC".
He can't "kick you out of BSAC".
What you do outside of your branch has nothing to do with him.
As an OD you could be diving outside of BSAC 'safe diving' recommendations, and therefore potentially not covered by the much talked of 3rd party insurance, but that's your own individual choice.
:)
garethwoodruff
25-03-2010, 18:59
Are these guys in a BSAC branch?
If you go diving with them as part of their branch, then you are diving under their DO and not your own existing DO.
You could even join their branch if you wanted to.
If you want to be able to dive regardless then get your finger out and get your sports diver , they can dive not under the supervision of a dive manager.
Simples :)
Mike Halligan
25-03-2010, 19:36
Are these guys in a BSAC branch?
If you go diving with them as part of their branch, then you are diving under their DO and not your own existing DO.
You could even join their branch if you wanted to.
If you want to be able to dive regardless then get your finger out and get your sports diver , they can dive not under the supervision of a dive manager.
Simples :)
Ouch!
But I think you may have something there.
The DO's duty of care (exercised by Dive Managers) is fairly strictly drawn in respect of OD. An OD approaching a dive centre might expect to be guided rather than left to dive on own recogniscance, whereas a SD could expect relative independence after a checkout.
I don't believe a branch DO can actually kick anyone out of the BSAC but I'd expect the DO can make fairly strident representation where the diving responsibility matrix is abused by someone unqualified (and I mean unqualified, not unsuited or incapable) to judge its applicability.
bootneck
25-03-2010, 21:54
As you do not need to have any diving qualifications to dive within the UK, you could just strap on a set of gear and go diving. Clubs and DO make this a safer but in the end its down to you.
If I wanted to go diving, I will, fill my cylinders with my own compressor, drive to my choice of dive site and go for a dive.
When I dive with the club, I go by the club rules and am happy to do so.
However when I joined BSAC I cannot remember signing away my free will. I was under the impression that "safe diving" it was guidance not law.
Yazzyfooty
25-03-2010, 22:13
Completely get your point, but I'm not trying to do this in order to get a deeper qualification, and my DO is a nice bloke, but because he has a legal responsibility for the training that I received, even when doing private diving, it means that he won't let me dive with a couple of my friends who are not members of BSAC and therefore don't have insurance.
Have you considered that he may think you are not ready or safe to dive outside the club and that he is saying no because he wants you to get more experience with club members that he knows the quality of their diving? I am sure he isnt saying no for the fun of it!
James I do wonder why you are a BSAC member as judging by all the questions you post on YD you do not seem to embrace the philosophy of BSAC club training, otherwise why ask the many questions from strangers on YD rather then your own club?
deandive
29-03-2010, 15:14
James you only have third party liability as part of your BSAC membership anyway. I think that your DO is being a bit of a berk on this one you are a qualified diver and an adult and as such you are free to make your own considered decisions about with whom and where you dive, being a member of a BSAC club should not be a limit to your diving activities it should broaden and increase them and I can see no better way of doing that than going diving with whoever you choose.:confused:
deandive
29-03-2010, 15:26
Kick you out of BSAC what a load of poppycock you gained your qualification with hard work and perseverance its yours you earned it, now take it hence forth and use it wherever you like your DO is only responsible for club sanctioned activities and dives not the activities of individual members be they OD or AD If your DO thinks he can behave in this way to your members find another club that is inclusive not restrictive
Ron MacRae
29-03-2010, 15:37
I think that your DO is being a bit of a berk on this one
I wouldn't be too quick to judge without knowing the other side of the story.
As yazzyfoot said perhaps the DO has his reasons. If James is a newly qualified Ocean Diver he should think hard about WHY his DO doesn't want him to dive outside the club before he does so. Perhaps the DO knows something about James, or the people James was diving with, that we don't
You are correct that a BSAC diver can, and should in the correct situations, dive outside of the club. Perhaps this isn't one of these sutuations? We don't have enough information to make that call.
Ron.
deandive
29-03-2010, 16:04
Dont mean to judge but I would never sign off an OD I felt had not made the grade the qualification is by its very nature evidence of James' ability and if His DO feels James is not up to it then he should never have signed and stamped the qual off, I appriciate that divers have very different levels of ability, confidence and quite often common sense however I feel that we should put faith in our instructors to bang out competant divers and the qualifications to be a guage of where a member is on their diving path:)
By these two bloke are you talking about the guys at Buxton or your own club ?
If you want to dive with the guys at Buxton, join their club and leave your current one - job done. Until then your DO has to make the decision he feels is best.
Neither. They were members of Buxton, but got ****ed off with BSAC so left.
He can't "kick you out of BSAC".
What you do outside of your branch has nothing to do with him.
As an OD you could be diving outside of BSAC 'safe diving' recommendations, and therefore potentially not covered by the much talked of 3rd party insurance, but that's your own individual choice.
:)
That's what I thought, but there are now official procedures to go through to get me out of BSAC if I don't dive by the "Safe Diving" guidelines.
Have you considered that he may think you are not ready or safe to dive outside the club and that he is saying no because he wants you to get more experience with club members that he knows the quality of their diving? I am sure he isnt saying no for the fun of it!
James I do wonder why you are a BSAC member as judging by all the questions you post on YD you do not seem to embrace the philosophy of BSAC club training, otherwise why ask the many questions from strangers on YD rather then your own club?
If I am not ready to dive within the limits set by the qualification, then why award me the qualification?
And I also wonder. I joined because ti was the only way that I knew of to learn to dive. However, I do feel that I have "signed away my free will".
deandive
29-03-2010, 16:27
The safe diving guidelines are there as a point of reference and are not to be used as a weapon If someone has sold it to you that way they are seriously mistaken:eek:
Kick you out of BSAC what a load of poppycock you gained your qualification with hard work and perseverance its yours you earned it, now take it hence forth and use it wherever you like your DO is only responsible for club sanctioned activities and dives not the activities of individual members be they OD or AD If your DO thinks he can behave in this way to your members find another club that is inclusive not restrictive
The DO is only responsible for diving within the club, but is responsible for all previous quals awarded, and so he says that if he doesn't know everything about every dive that I do, then he could be sued if anything happened to me because he may be found to have awarded a qualification when it wasn't deserved. So he says.
And yes, he is being a berk.
Dont mean to judge but I would never sign off an OD I felt had not made the grade the qualification is by its very nature evidence of James' ability and if His DO feels James is not up to it then he should never have signed and stamped the qual off, I appriciate that divers have very different levels of ability, confidence and quite often common sense however I feel that we should put faith in our instructors to bang out competant divers and the qualifications to be a guage of where a member is on their diving path:)
Exactly my point. Have a green.
How do you add to reputation? It's so much easier on YD...
How do you add to reputation? It's so much easier on YD...
Scales symbol above and right of the post
Ron MacRae
29-03-2010, 16:57
Dont mean to judge but I would never sign off an OD I felt had not made the grade the qualification is by its very nature evidence of James' ability and if His DO feels James is not up to it then he should never have signed and stamped the qual off, I appriciate that divers have very different levels of ability, confidence and quite often common sense however I feel that we should put faith in our instructors to bang out competant divers and the qualifications to be a guage of where a member is on their diving path:)
Perhaps it's not James he has the issues with, perhaps it's the buddies or the dive he did. Without hearing his side of the story we don't know.
Most DOs would be quite happy for newly qualified ODs to go diving elsewhere as long as there was some sort of DM supervision and they were diving with a relatively experienced buddy.
I just feel we're not getting the full story here.
Ron.
The safe diving guidelines are there as a point of reference and are not to be used as a weapon If someone has sold it to you that way they are seriously mistaken:eek:
Well, he said that if I don't go by the "Safe Diving" rules, then he will start procedures to, effectively, kick me out of the branch and BSAC.
I'm not entirely sure that I want to me a member any longer, as it is just too restricting. One example is with these two guys I was saying about.
Another is what happened yesterday and the day before. I sent John (Northern_Diver) a text askign if he wanted a dive on Sunday. Short notice but he said yes, just at the Delph, so not exactly unknown territory. I am required to ask my DO if I can do every dive, so he says, so I phone him up to ask him. He says that I didn't dive him enough notice to speak to John's club's DO to check tha the dive was OK, and therefore I couldn't go. Wtf?
A dive with a Sports Diver, soon to be Dive Leader, in a puddle that I've been to a million times? What is there to check? Maybe he was scared that John might be hog looping...
Oh yes - also, while this doesn't affect me at the moment at least, Mr DO has ruled that no one in the branch is allowed to dive hog looped or even use primary donate, let alone have it taught.
Perhaps it's not James he has the issues with, perhaps it's the buddies or the dive he did. Without hearing his side of the story we don't know.
Most DOs would be quite happy for newly qualified ODs to go diving elsewhere as long as there was some sort of DM supervision and they were diving with a relatively experienced buddy.
I just feel we're not getting the full story here.
Ron.
One of the blokes is AD, the other DL, both been diving for centuries. It was in FIIC in Buxton, we had boat cover with Buxton SAC, and the bottom was no deeper than 18m without swimming to the other side of the quarry (and it's a bloody big place...)
Ed Howarth
29-03-2010, 17:17
..... One of the blokes is AD, the other DL, both been diving for centuries ......
Well, not quite.
..... in a puddle that I've been to a million times ......
Really? How many dives have you done?
Ed
Well, not quite.
Really? How many dives have you done?
Ed
Well OK i like to exaggerate, but they've been diving for a hell of a long time, and I did almost all of my training there, apart from a couple of sea dives and a few visits to capers.
This question comes up over and over again.
Simple answer go diving. Dont do anything crazy, like dive beyond your qualifications. You'll be fine.
If your DO hassles you then simply dont tell him. Just go and dive.
If he is threatening to kick you out of the club, then lodge a complaint against him with the committee of your club, and if all else fails, find a different club. I mean why stay somewhere that gives you nothing but hassle?
Go out and start shallow and work up to 20m over a few sessions. Start with some 6m stuff, maybe 10m the next week, and take it from there. If you have your head screwed on right and most likely you have (as you qualified as OD), then i'd say you have nothing to fear except the enjoyment of going diving. You also have buddies to dive with which is a bonus.
Ive been through this already some time back, and in the end, i went diving. I have no regrets and have had a lot of enjoyment. :) My DO and i never saw eye to eye, but in the end i wasnt going to let that spoil my chances of having fun.
This question comes up over and over again.
Simple answer go diving. Dont do anything crazy, like dive beyond your qualifications. You'll be fine.
If your DO hassles you then simply dont tell him. Just go and dive.
If he is threatening to kick you out of the club, then lodge a complaint against him with the committee of your club, and if all else fails, find a different club. I mean why stay somewhere that gives you nothing but hassle?
Go out and start shallow and work up to 20m over a few sessions. Start with some 6m stuff, maybe 10m the next week, and take it from there. If you have your head screwed on right and most likely you have (as you qualified as OD), then i'd say you have nothing to fear except the enjoyment of going diving. You also have buddies to dive with which is a bonus.
Ive been through this already some time back, and in the end, i went diving. I have no regrets and have had a lot of enjoyment. :) My DO and i never saw eye to eye, but in the end i wasnt going to let that spoil my chances of having fun.
Thanks - it's nice to see that I'm not the only one who went through this. That's exactly what I want to do - go diving. But my DO can be a scary guy when he's not happy. Also, everyone else in the club goes along with him, so I don't think that I'll have much luck in going to other people.
I don't ever plan to go outside of my qualifications, so for now not exceed 20m, although I have been to 20m a few times, so I do feel comfortable there.
I'm not sure how much longer I will stay with my club. I have a holiday booked with them in June, so will have to stay until then, but, unless I change my mind, I won't be with them much longer after. Most of the people there are nice, but if they are going to continue to be so restrictive and controlling then it's simply not what I am looking for.
Thanks - it's nice to see that I'm not the only one who went through this. That's exactly what I want to do - go diving. But my DO can be a scary guy when he's not happy. Also, everyone else in the club goes along with him, so I don't think that I'll have much luck in going to other people.
If he does this to you, theres a good chance he does this to other people as well. Why not use this as an opportunity to get him to explain his action in front of the committee. If what he comes out with sounds like BS, well a) it will get recorded in the minutes for the meeting, b) you may get a bit of respect for standing up to him, and c) others may join you in your stance. When it comes around to the next election session, gather your supporters and vote him out.
Beyond that its maybe time to move on.
Getting Sports (or an equivalent ticket) is also a good idea. People tend to leave you alone a bit more when you have that level of training. Or you could just go rebellious and get AOW and a deep ticket. Then fork off into the tech courses.
Lots of routes for you to develop your diving beyond this point, so dont despair, diving is about enjoyment and fun. If you arent getting that then adapt.
I don't know the full details of the case here.
But bare in mind that it is not easy being the DO.
If there is an incident it is him/her that will recieve the call:( .
It is often him/her that will have to ring your family to explain that you have been involved in an incident & what is happening, this is a very unpleasent experience, especially in the even to of a serious incident:( .
It is also the DO who will potentially recieve a visit from the police for a statement, trust me on this, this is also a very unpleasent experience:( .
This is not only if you are the casualty, but if you where diving with the casualty. Even if this was a dive the DO new nothing about. Even if the DO didn't sign your qualification, if it was gained through his/her branch, the paperwork leads to him/her, & he/she has to deal with the enquiries & justifications:( .
90% of the time the DO is just trying to ensure that you don't over extend yourself, putting you or your buddy at risk. Occasionally the DO is a tit (or cock as Woz would say), & has let the responsibility/authority go to his/her head.
Gareth
Ben Panter
29-03-2010, 19:16
And obviously you had adequate shore cover?
Ben
As Gareth very rightly pointed out, being a DO comes with many responsibilities, some positive and some not. And it is the DO's that pick up the mess when it all goes pearshaped. The people who become DO's don't take on this position lightly. They are normally very dedicated, experienced divers who wish to help nuture talent and ensure that their branch dives and trains in a very safe manner. It's tough because part of their role is to keep green divers enthusiasm high, whilst ensuring they don't go off and damage or kill themselves or others.
James, if your DO is not santioning a dive it's for a very good reason. Remember that he is a diver, so he knows how much you want/need/desire to dive. But he has a responsiblity and a duty of care to keep you safe. If he feels a dive is unsuitable, he HAS to say so. You need to realise that not liking the advice you are being given, doesn't make it wrong. It is also inappropriate to castigate him on here - we are not in full receipt of the facts from both sides. It's time you learnt some manners young man.
Perhaps you might want to cast your mind back a few months when you were asking questions about technical diving which caused myself and a number of others to go grey overnight. You were scaring the bejesus out of us, and there were a few forum members who did wonder if you were going to feature in the Diving Incident Report later on this year. It's therefore quite likely that your DO had the same thought when he said he would not sanction your dive. Personally I think you owe him a genuine apology and a pint. One day, when you become an adult, you might realise just what a handful and headache you've been.
BTW, consider the following when you write your posts in future. Think how they would sound if they were read out in a Court. Forum posts last forever, they can come back and haunt you.
And obviously you had adequate shore cover?
Ben
At the quarry? Yes - the whole of Buxton SAC were there doing rescue drills.
As Gareth very rightly pointed out, being a DO comes with many responsibilities, some positive and some not. And it is the DO's that pick up the mess when it all goes pearshaped. The people who become DO's don't take on this position lightly. They are normally very dedicated, experienced divers who wish to help nuture talent and ensure that their branch dives and trains in a very safe manner. It's tough because part of their role is to keep green divers enthusiasm high, whilst ensuring they don't go off and damage or kill themselves or others.
James, if your DO is not santioning a dive it's for a very good reason. Remember that he is a diver, so he knows how much you want/need/desire to dive. But he has a responsiblity and a duty of care to keep you safe. If he feels a dive is unsuitable, he HAS to say so. You need to realise that not liking the advice you are being given, doesn't make it wrong. It is also inappropriate to castigate him on here - we are not in full receipt of the facts from both sides. It's time you learnt some manners young man.
Perhaps you might want to cast your mind back a few months when you were asking questions about technical diving which caused myself and a number of others to go grey overnight. You were scaring the bejesus out of us, and there were a few forum members who did wonder if you were going to feature in the Diving Incident Report later on this year. It's therefore quite likely that your DO had the same thought when he said he would not sanction your dive. Personally I think you owe him a genuine apology and a pint. One day, when you become an adult, you might realise just what a handful and headache you've been.
I wasn't asking you to worry about me before, and I lost count of the times that I said that I'm just asking out of interest.
Why should he be making sure that I am being trained in a safe manner? My training has finished - I am qualified as an Ocean Diver, and if he feels that I am not skilled enough to do 20m dives, then he shouldn't have awarded me the qualification.
Adrian Kelland
29-03-2010, 20:07
I wasn't asking you to worry about me before, and I lost count of the times that I said that I'm just asking out of interest.
Why should he be making sure that I am being trained in a safe manner? My training has finished - I am qualified as an Ocean Diver, and if he feels that I am not skilled enough to do 20m dives, then he shouldn't have awarded me the qualification.
The DO has very little choice but to award the qualification if all the elements have been signed off. Not a great situation, but that's what it is.
Yes you are qualified as an Ocean Diver. Well done. It may well be adequate training for you if you are happy to dive within the limits of that qualification.
However many think they wish to develop further and learn more. When they do that, and get some practical experience to back it up, they tend to start to understand how little they knew when they started. That goes for any subject. Why should diving be different?
Adrian
Tony Dwyer
29-03-2010, 20:23
Why should he be making sure that I am being trained in a safe manner? My training has finished - I am qualified as an Ocean Diver, and if he feels that I am not skilled enough to do 20m dives, then he shouldn't have awarded me the qualification.
No, your training hasn't finished and from the tone of your various posts I rather think you have a fair way to go yet. Ocean Diver is a beginner level certification. I would encourage you not to stop at Ocean Diver, but to progress to at least Sports Diver.
Your D/O obviously believes that you can go to 20 mtrs, however you should be doing so under the stewardship of an appointed Dive Manager. From what you describe it would appear that he would prefer to do the appointing, rather than have you do it yourself.
I suspect that you D/O is made a tad nervous by your attitude. I seem to recall that you are not advanced in years.
Since we only have your side of the story and that side appears to be a bit intense, how about you invite your D/O here to offer his version.
No, your training hasn't finished and from the tone of your various posts I rather think you have a fair way to go yet. Ocean Diver is a beginner level certification. I would encourage you not to stop at Ocean Diver, but to progress to at least Sports Diver.
Your D/O obviously believes that you can go to 20 mtrs, however you should be doing so under the stewardship of an appointed Dive Manager. From what you describe it would appear that he would prefer to do the appointing, rather than have you do it yourself.
I suspect that you D/O is made a tad nervous by your attitude. I seem to recall that you are not advanced in years.
Since we only have your side of the story and that side appears to be a bit intense, how about you invite your D/O here to offer his version.
For the time being, my training is finished with BSAC, and possibly permanently (with BSAC, that is).
The DO has very little choice but to award the qualification if all the elements have been signed off. Not a great situation, but that's what it is.
Yes you are qualified as an Ocean Diver. Well done. It may well be adequate training for you if you are happy to dive within the limits of that qualification.
However many think they wish to develop further and learn more. When they do that, and get some practical experience to back it up, they tend to start to understand how little they knew when they started. That goes for any subject. Why should diving be different?
Adrian
Private Pilots tend to know it all at about 90+ hours of flight. This is a treacherous time for them and statistically there are more crashes at this point. If they make it safely to a 100 hours of flight time, they suddenly realise that they know bugger all about flying, and then they start truly learning how to fly and are subsequently much safer pilots. You've just been taught the basic core skills to dive. Now you'll start to truly learn to dive. And once you've been diving awhile, hopefully you'll realise you know not much at all, and gosh there's so much more to it than you first thought. It's the ones that know everything about diving that are dangerous.
You're a BSAC Member. One of the corner stones of BSAC is mentoring. Whether you like it or not, you're mentored in the club and on here. So no, you didn't ask us to worry about you, but it's the culture/safety net. The more experienced feel a responsiblility to help the next generation develop, safely. Most people see this as a benefit.
I wasn't asking you to worry about me before, and I lost count of the times that I said that I'm just asking out of interest.
Why should he be making sure that I am being trained in a safe manner? My training has finished - I am qualified as an Ocean Diver, and if he feels that I am not skilled enough to do 20m dives, then he shouldn't have awarded me the qualification.
Errrr.
BSAC Ocean Diver is similar to PADI Open Water, CMAS * etc.
There are very few diving qualifcations below these, with the exception of PADI seal team, bubble maker, & discover scuba diving.
Ocean Diver, PADI OW, CMAS* etc are the lowest qualifcation that anyone anywhere accept as being competant enough not to require an instructor to escort you. Although, they all assume that there is some form of surface cover &/or supervision[1]. They also all expect that you will build on this qualifcation with subsiquent training & qualifications.
Your current knowledge, understanding & experience is extremely limited. In education terms you have passed the 11+, that still leaves O-level, A level etc.
Whilst UK diving is some of the best diving you can get anywhere in the world. It is also some of the most challenging that you can get in the world.
That includes shallow dives.
I would strongly encourage you to learn more, irrespective of agency. Ocean Diver is a bare minimum qualifcation.
Gareth
[1]
Owen Wichard
29-03-2010, 20:40
I agree with Roz, you been taught core skills, once you started the sports course you release how much goes into diving from working air needed. Additional safety training like BLS and in water mouth mouth and equipment
So by all means go diving with out your club. But if it goes south what can you do? CBL and tow. Then you relaying on the inland site surface cover
Sorry if miss read and miss commented but this how I read this thread
OneDragons
29-03-2010, 20:56
Not a post that is commenting on specifics for the OP here, but some comments did ring true a little.
When I look back at me as a newly qualified sports diver, I find myself a little worried by how little I knew compared to how much freedom I had and what I thought I knew.
At OD, you really have just started. Sounds good that you were able to dive with some experienced divers, but it does leave the mentoring stuff out of the equation a little which as people have said is a safety net even though it can be restrictive. As long as you continue putting yourself in safe situations with others that can teach you good habits and continue your training, then someone will eventually make a diver out of you.
Don't worry I do plan to increase my quals - just probably not with BSAC.
Yazzyfooty
29-03-2010, 21:19
James you only have third party liability as part of your BSAC membership anyway. I think that your DO is being a bit of a berk on this one you are a qualified diver and an adult and as such you are free to make your own considered decisions about with whom and where you dive, being a member of a BSAC club should not be a limit to your diving activities it should broaden and increase them and I can see no better way of doing that than going diving with whoever you choose.:confused:
You may wish to revise your comment about him being an adult as he is still a child in the eyes of the law.
Don't worry I do plan to increase my quals - just probably not with BSAC. I bet there are some breathing a sigh of relief at that announcement I hope you have told your DO.
OneDragons
29-03-2010, 21:34
Don't worry I do plan to increase my quals - just probably not with BSAC.
Fair enough, as long as you remember that not all BSAC (or any organisations) clubs are created equal!
Just because you have had one bad experience doesn't mean all will be the same.
Corker1209
29-03-2010, 21:59
The DO is only responsible for diving within the club, but is responsible for all previous quals awarded, and so he says that if he doesn't know everything about every dive that I do, then he could be sued if anything happened to me because he may be found to have awarded a qualification when it wasn't deserved. So he says.
And yes, he is being a berk.
Seems to me like your DO is at the end of his proverbial tether with another OD who knows it all. Perhaps the Ocean Diver who does not fully embrace how a club is run should re-sit the theory lecture (OT1) with further emphasis on the role and responsibilities of the DO followed by a personal chat with the DO himself if clarity is still sought.
You seem to have gone the distance on this but, you have choice on the matter, vote with your feet and become the free agent you so wish...
Tony Dwyer
29-03-2010, 22:07
Just because you have had one bad experience doesn't mean all will be the same.
It's very likely that the bad experience was of his own manufacture.
OneDragons
29-03-2010, 22:58
Just because he may or may not of caused it, it is still a bad experience.
The question becomes how he deals with it and moves on. Does he learn and grow or does he become bitter, resentful and enter denial of his current position?
Only our on-line friend along with time can answer that.
Fishy, I hope you become a diver that everyone can aspire to. And make sure you don't become an idiot with a qual. underwater. There are enough of them, though they do tend to be self selective as far as living to a ripe old age is concerned.
bootneck
29-03-2010, 23:37
Please leave the guy alone, he maybe only a OD and he may be lacking in experience, however its his diving that is being talked about, if he takes his time, works on his dives , enjoys himself and build experience, then he is only doing what hundreds of other divers have done over the years, Whilst people may worry and not agree with his ideas of how he wishes to dive, it is his diving.
Don,t forget he can walk away from BSAC and all other training and just dive instead of making him disillusioned maybe we should consider how he feels.
Tony Dwyer
30-03-2010, 09:12
Please leave the guy alone, he maybe only a OD and he may be lacking in experience, however its his diving that is being talked about, if he takes his time, works on his dives , enjoys himself and build experience, then he is only doing what hundreds of other divers have done over the years, Whilst people may worry and not agree with his ideas of how he wishes to dive, it is his diving.
Don,t forget he can walk away from BSAC and all other training and just dive instead of making him disillusioned maybe we should consider how he feels.
Some valid observations, however I suggest that you consider the tone of his various posts in this thread and others in the fairly recent past and the fact that he has made statements that his D/O does not necessarily have the opportunity to address or refute here.
I don't like anonymous criticism.
If he doesn't like the way his current branch operates he has the option to move to another one or join BSAC Direct.
I hope that as he grows up and gains maturity, that he will become an able and safe diver. In the meantime, I get the very strong feeling that he should be on a leash. Maybe his D/O feels the same way.
Ron MacRae
30-03-2010, 11:46
I get the very strong feeling that he should be on a leash. Maybe his D/O feels the same way.
Nothing specific I can tie down but I'm tempted to agree with you.
The real problem with forums is you never see the full picture. Any advice in such situations has to be tempered by the unknown items.
Ron.
deandive
30-03-2010, 13:59
Lots of people have been correct to point out that without all of the facts we should not judge or direct criticism, but I think the fact remains that you are qualified as an OD and as such certified to dive within the limits set out by BSAC I think everyone will agree that the path to becoming a better diver starts with diving in varied locations, conditions and doing different types of dive with a wide range of dive buddies off whom you will learn things not found in your learning materials and course content. In my opinion get out there and dive as much as you can and im sure you will become an asset to your current club or wherever you end up, dont think you should write off BSAC just yet though it has so many benefits and you may not like the alternative.;)
ChristianG
30-03-2010, 15:48
dont think you should write off BSAC just yet though it has so many benefits and you may not like the alternative.;)
Amen, particularly that last.
In spite of the current "troubles" which in any case have nothing to do with beginner (of whatever qualification) divers.
Ron Evans
01-04-2010, 13:18
If you intend diving as a group of three, you need to check out the BSAC Diving Incidents Reports. Groups of 3 have an increased risk of incidents.
Your DO has a duty of care to you, even when you think she/he doesn't. For example, if details of a "non-club" dive become known in advance to the DO, and the intended dive is unsafe (for whatever reason), and the DO fails to make sure of the risks, in law she/he would be liabel. The DO must be seen to try effectively to prevent dangers to members, less is bad practice and is negligence.
All reasonable DO's will explain reasons for decisions, as that is part of your training. Have you asked???
If you choose to disregard strong advice from the DO, you are then acting on your own, but the question would have to be - why do you think the planned dive is acceptable, if the DO doesn't?".
Ron
Ex-DO.
Alan White
02-04-2010, 15:17
Hello James
I have read your post and then also all your previous postings as well!
I would suggest that you should be thinking more before posting,
perhaps talking with the DO and others within your branch.
They have rather more experience of diving and life than yourself at the moment.
Youthful enthusiasm and speed of criticism as well as naivety sometimes combine,
and can show how little we know at times.
I do believe your comments about BSAC and your DO may be one of these such occasions?
PLEASE do take note of your DO's concerns as they will be based about what he/she knows about you, your diving ability and maturity.
The DO will be acting in your best interest and will be intended to stop you becoming a statistic.
We have all clearly been young once and lived to tell the tale.
I have a belly and balding head.....there is a lot to be said for this,
rather than meeting your end at under 20...... as many of my friends, family and acquaintances have done and I have witnessed.
Listen to those who have lived through experience good or bad and learn from these rather than jumping up and down like a 2 year old and doing things your own independent way...it may lead to tears, ours, your parents and even your DO,s.
PLEASE TAKE NOTE JAMES, PLEASE TAKE NOTE!
If you intend diving as a group of three, you need to check out the BSAC Diving Incidents Reports. Groups of 3 have an increased risk of incidents.
Ron
Ex-DO.
Oh dear.
Incidents may increase if you haven't been trained in a 3 or have little experience of diving as a 3. Within BSAC most 3's end up as a 2 + 1, which is not the case with everyone.
Don't assume all 3's are a bad idea.
Not sure why you need to add you are an ex DO.
Dave Whitlow
02-04-2010, 17:07
Incidents may increase if you haven't been trained in a 3 or have little experience of diving as a 3. Within BSAC most 3's end up as a 2 + 1, which is not the case with everyone.
:eek: Oh dear, I sense the next communication forming already and we will receive an edict stating BSAC members must not dive in a group of 3 unless they hold a qualification from another agency to demonstrate they been trained to dive as a 3! ;):D
The 2+1 observation is quite true and can all too easily become 1+1+1. Then again, there are divers who dive as a 1+ as they just don't get buddy or team diving.
:eek: Oh dear, I sense the next communication forming already and we will receive an edict stating BSAC members must not dive in a group of 3 unless they hold a qualification from another agency to demonstrate they been trained to dive as a 3! ;):D
They have more chance of finding instances in the incident reports to support that, where they can't find them for hog looping :)
bythesea
02-04-2010, 18:25
I am just interested to see if there is a way to make it so that you are no longer the DOs responsibility for private diving.
Thats easy, you just don't tell them, AFAIAC the DO is responsible if it is club dives, if I go away with my wife or other buddy no one but ourselves are responsible.
ChristianG
02-04-2010, 18:26
there are divers who dive as a 1+ as they just don't get buddy or team diving.
There are also divers who dive as 1+ because they prefer not to have to worry about anyone else. Photographers who are in any way dedicated to that activity spring immediately to mind as do marine archaeologists who may often dive somewhat deeper than most. :)
No, that last is not directed at anyone at all - much. ;) :o
Nor is the first comment directed at me at all - much. :rolleyes:
Wayne Murray
02-04-2010, 19:31
Hi James,
Alan's got it right when he says....
... perhaps talking with the DO and others within your branch.
They have rather more experience of diving and life than yourself at the moment.
That doesn't necessarily mean they are right, but it does mean they are worth listening to. After all, it's not as if your life depends on it .... mmmm, maybe it does .... ;)
DOs don't always get it right. It's not like being the Pope or something (although perhaps a few behave that way on occasions)! But rightly or wrongly they are usually trying to look after your interests as well as the club in general. It's not an easy job. [As I know all too well. I'm not one at the moment, but I've 'done time'!]
Perhaps your DO is being overly cautious, or perhaps they have very good reasons. As others have said, it's pretty well impossible for us to know. However, other members of your club are likely to have a good idea. Talk to some of the other more experienced members and see what they think. You could even talk to the DO of the other club as well as your own.
It's easy to listen to people when they are saying what you want to hear, but it's when they aren't that you need to listen most carefully and think most deeply.
Don't let it dampen your enthusiasm, but do let it temper your actions.
Happy and safe bubbles - and many more of them for many years to come!
Wayne
There are also divers who dive as 1+ because they prefer not to have to worry about anyone else. Photographers who are in any way dedicated to that activity spring immediately to mind as do marine archaeologists who may often dive somewhat deeper than most. :)
You can't apply that logic to everyone. We have a photographer in our team (Gareth Lock), whom I would argue is both a very competent photographer, and an excellent member of the team.
ChristianG
03-04-2010, 11:19
You can't apply that logic to everyone. We have a photographer in our team (Gareth Lock), whom I would argue is both a very competent photographer, and an excellent member of the team.
No doubt, in much the same way nothing is writ in stone, or at least nothing discovered/created/whatever by us hooman beans. There are always exceptions to every rule, thankfully so.
To take the photographic analogy even further, when Gareth is hovering, awaiting that perfect opportunity, with his finger immediately on the shutter release, there is no way in the world that he, or any other photographer, can be the perfect buddy and it therefore behoves the other members of the team to keep an eye on him as well as each other. That's fine in a highly disciplined team environment such as a GUE team but it plain doesn't work in a casual relationship such as two strangers buddied on a liveaboard, one of whom may not know one end of a camera from the other. Yes I'm well aware that those are arguably the two extremes and there is lots in between but I have seen many a buddy proverbially tear their hair out when with a photographer. That is a major reason why I often prefer to dive "self sufficient" (http://cholla.mmto.org/scuba/solo2.html). Please note that that was written a good 15 years ago.
gobfish1
03-04-2010, 18:45
Errrr.
BSAC Ocean Diver is similar to PADI Open Water, CMAS * etc.
There are very few diving qualifcations below these, with the exception of PADI seal team, bubble maker, & discover scuba diving.
Ocean Diver, PADI OW, CMAS* etc are the lowest qualifcation that anyone anywhere accept as being competant enough not to require an instructor to escort you. Although, they all assume that there is some form of surface cover &/or supervision[1]. They also all expect that you will build on this qualifcation with subsiquent training & qualifications.
Your current knowledge, understanding & experience is extremely limited. In education terms you have passed the 11+, that still leaves O-level, A level etc.
Whilst UK diving is some of the best diving you can get anywhere in the world. It is also some of the most challenging that you can get in the world.
That includes shallow dives.
I would strongly encourage you to learn more, irrespective of agency. Ocean Diver is a bare minimum qualifcation.
Gareth
[1]
when i was the DO at my club, Ocean Divers only dived with AD on club outing .. as i think its always been a ****e dive qualifcation , you only got let of the lead when you were a sport s diver ..lol when i say let of the lead i meen you got a longer lead , as for diving out side the club ,, i say go do it [snip] to do with me ,,
kill your self and your dum buddys have fun ..
ps
the AD that dived with the new OD were hand picked by me .. as there were some AD s in the club about as good at diving as a OD ..
when i was the DO at my club, Ocean Divers only dived with AD
Then why were they awarded a qualification that should let them dive with another Ocean Diver? Surely the TO should postpone any qualification given until they feel that they are worthy of it.
ianfirmin
03-04-2010, 19:09
when i was the DO at my club, Ocean Divers only dived with AD on club outing .. as i think its always been a ****e dive qualifcation , you only got let of the lead when you were a sport s diver ..lol when i say let of the lead i meen you got a longer lead , as for diving out side the club ,, i say go do it fookall to do with me ,,
kill your self and your dum buddys have fun ..
ps
the AD that dived with the new OD were hand picked by me .. as there were some AD s in the club about as good at diving as a OD ..
You must have had some rubbish instructors in your club if you couldn't trust the DL's to dive with an OD....
gobfish1
03-04-2010, 19:11
Then why were they awarded a qualification that should let them dive with another Ocean Diver? Surely the TO should postpone any qualification given until they feel that they are worthy of it.
its the BSAC way sorry to say .. :D
gobfish1
03-04-2010, 19:13
You must have had some rubbish instructors in your club if you couldn't trust the DL's to dive with an OD....
not at all .. just had lots of v good AD so why put a OD with a DL when i have a better man or woman for the job,
ps
i think its a bit low of you to have a pop at the instructors in the club . OD diving with AD s was my call nothing to go with instructors ..;)
gobfish1
03-04-2010, 19:17
Then why were they awarded a qualification that should let them dive with another Ocean Diver? Surely the TO should postpone any qualification given until they feel that they are worthy of it.
when OD first came out OD could only dive with OD 18m max i think and only if the DO said it was ok
and i never said it was ok :D hence OD always dived with a AD ,, :D
ianfirmin
03-04-2010, 19:30
not at all .. just had lots of v good AD so why put a OD with a DL when i have a better man or woman for the jub
In which case, what was the point of your earlier post?
If you had loads of good AD's who were willing to dive with OD's why the implication (in your club) that no one else (in your view) should be doing it?
I thought we were talking about a DO's responsibility and not half a story about why one DO did what he did....
Ho hum, back to the cleaning.
gobfish1
03-04-2010, 19:42
In which case, what was the point of your earlier post?
If you had loads of good AD's who were willing to dive with OD's why the implication (in your club) that no one else (in your view) should be doing it?
I thought we were talking about a DO's responsibility and not half a story about why one DO did what he did....
Ho hum, back to the cleaning.
well the DO has the shout on club dives end of .. out side the club the OP can do what he wants end of ,, simple ant it ,, the op sounds like a wimp cant stand up to his DO ,,all he has to do is go dive do what he likes and stop texing hes DO, saying im ok als well .. after my dive with my buddys
that you said i shoud not do but i have so [snip] :D
ps most new diver tent to sneek of for a dive with there buddys but most dont go blabing about it on the net or to there DO s
even did it my self 30m in dotty 7mins deco and still not even a sport diver ,, what fun
the op sounds like a wimp cant stand up to his DO ,,all he has to do is go dive do what he likes and stop texing hes DO, saying im ok als well .. after my dive with my buddys
that you said i shoud not do but i have so [snip] :D
Yes - I am a wuss, but what can you do... If I did go diving without him knowing, then as long as he didn't know, then fine, but he said that if i dive without telling him, i.e. if he founds out ive been diving without telling him, then he suggests that "I relinquish my branch membership", as I will no longer be welcome there by him.
gobfish1
03-04-2010, 19:52
In which case, what was the point of your earlier post?
If you had loads of good AD's who were willing to dive with OD's why the implication (in your club) that no one else (in your view) should be doing it?
Ho hum, back to the cleaning.
the point i was putting across was some diver my have / be AD but it dont mean there v good at diving or looking after a new OD ,, hence i picked the buddys for new divers ,, knowing all my 65 menbers good and bad pionts ,
and not the novice as he dont know what he dont know as yet :D
gobfish1
03-04-2010, 20:00
Yes - I am a wuss, but what can you do... If I did go diving without him knowing, then as long as he didn't know, then fine, but he said that if i dive without telling him, i.e. if he founds out ive been diving without telling him, then he suggests that "I relinquish my branch membership", as I will no longer be welcome there by him.
well he could try but it has to go to the commity and a vote he would look a [snip], if he did so ,, i think ,, its out side club and has nothing to do with him ,weather he likes it or not ,, **** i bet half your club has done a few dive s THEY MAYBE SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE :p
as for me when i was A DO ,, i was there to help and best i could,
watch your back but thats hard to do if your off some place on your jack out side the club ,, but your a big boy and your will with in your right to go do what ever you want ,
your will with in your right to go do what ever you want ,
That is what I thought but he keeps assuring me that since recently, DOs now have a duty of care, and can't legally disown me for ANY diving I do while i am part of the club.
ianfirmin
03-04-2010, 20:11
well the DO has the shout on club dives end of .. out side the club the OP can do what he wants end of ,, simple ant it ,, the op sounds like a wimp cant stand up to his DO ,,all he has to do is go dive do what he likes and stop texing hes DO, saying im ok als well .. after my dive with my buddys
that you said i shoud not do but i have so [snip] :D
ps most new diver tent to sneek of for a dive with there buddys but most dont go blabing about it on the net or to there DO s
even did it my self 30m in dotty 7mins deco and still not even a sport diver ,, what fun
Perhaps he wants to dive with his buddies on club dives. Perhaps his chosen buddies are not AD's.
So, instead of diving with the people he wants to within a sociable (and possibly more safe) club environment you are suggesting he go off and do his own thing.
It strikes me that the only person who gains is the DO. He abrogates his responsibilites. Since the DO is responsible for club training it's an admission of failure.
Regards
Ian
gobfish1
03-04-2010, 20:13
That is what I thought but he keeps assuring me that since recently, DOs now have a duty of care, and can't legally disown me for ANY diving I do while i am part of the club.
LOOK simple if he dont know about your diving out side the club he dont have to care .. end of ,, the rest is just [snip] ,, me thinks ,, :D
but i do think your better of diving with in the club rather than out side it for the time being ,, best way round it is to get a real dive ticket ie spot diver at least and become your own man ;) :D
ianfirmin
03-04-2010, 20:16
the point i was putting across was some diver my have / be AD but it dont mean there v good at diving or looking after a new OD ,, hence i picked the buddys for new divers ,, knowing all my 65 menbers good and bad pionts ,
and not the novice as he dont know what he dont know as yet :D
That's fair enough. I'm not a DO (or an AD for that matter) but I do the same things on dives I organise.
best way round it is to get a real dive ticket ie spot diver at least and become your own man ;) :D
Fair enough. Thanks everyone for all of the advice given - I have listened to it all, even though I haven't always responded.
gobfish1
03-04-2010, 20:17
Perhaps he wants to dive with his buddies on club dives. Perhaps his chosen buddies are not AD's.
So, instead of diving with the people he wants to within a sociable (and possibly more safe) club environment you are suggesting he go off and do his own thing.
It strikes me that the only person who gains is the DO. He abrogates his responsibilites. Since the DO is responsible for club training it's an admission of failure.
Regards
Ian
whan he has a real dive ticket he can dive with his buddys :D
gobfish1
03-04-2010, 20:19
Fair enough. Thanks everyone for all of the advice given - I have listened to it all, even though I haven't always responded.
good luck with it ,, hope you can sort a good out come for you and your DO
bootneck
03-04-2010, 21:45
He has a real dive ticket, why not devalue our own training by saying it not a real qualification and why do people perpetuate this myth that diving is a difficult thing to do, as long as you think and take a little care its easy.
gobfish1
03-04-2010, 22:29
He has a real dive ticket, why not devalue our own training by saying it not a real qualification and why do people perpetuate this myth that diving is a difficult thing to do, as long as you think and take a little care its easy.
yes if you say so ,, he has a real dive ticket,
and yes its easy, or as hard as you want to make it ,,
its also easy to drownd doing a nice easy dive ,, with your buddy
i was not trying to devalue his training ,, just saying he need more so he can do his own thing ,, as and when he wants ,,
i would not class him as a club diver untill he can dive with the club as he is now the club has to dive with him ,, if you know what i mean ,,:D
He has a real dive ticket, why not devalue our own training by saying it not a real qualification and why do people perpetuate this myth that diving is a difficult thing to do, as long as you think and take a little care its easy.
Quite right.
When I run the South Scotland Regional events I often give two OD the opportunity to dive together - in accordance with Safe Diving. How else do they learn what leading a buddy pair is really all about.
Regards
Edward
gobfish1
03-04-2010, 22:44
Quite right.
When I run the South Scotland Regional events I often give two OD the opportunity to dive together - in accordance with Safe Diving. How else do they learn what leading a buddy pair is really all about.
Regards
Edward
that will be training then ,, with some one having a eye on them ,, always a good thing edward;)
when i was the DO at my club, Ocean Divers only dived with AD on club outing .. as i think its always been a ****e dive qualifcation , you only got let of the lead when you were a sport s diver ..lol when i say let of the lead i meen you got a longer lead , as for diving out side the club ,, i say go do it [snip] to do with me ,,
kill your self and your dum buddys have fun ..
ps
the AD that dived with the new OD were hand picked by me .. as there were some AD s in the club about as good at diving as a OD ..
does that mean that the the first time a diver got to lead a "less qualified" diver was when they were a DL?
gobfish1
04-04-2010, 21:21
does that mean that the the first time a diver got to lead a "less qualified" diver was when they were a DL?
no id prob let a good sport diver with some time and dives under his belt lead a new sports diver / fresh off the OD boat :D
Yazzyfooty
05-04-2010, 10:20
As Fishy is only 15 years old and considered a minor, we dont know whether his mother might even have spoken to the DO and voiced her concerns about her child diving outside the club, on YD thats what Fishy aka James S posted saying that.
In my old club minors couldnt dive without a recognised guardian being present on the trip even as a non diver. Can someone from Fishy's club tell us what their rules are?
Nigel Hewitt
05-04-2010, 11:07
As Fishy is only 15 years old and considered a minor...Let's stop being polite.
Fishie is a brat who trying to use us to justify thumbing his nose at the people who are trying to stop him killing himself.
When he grows up he will appreciate them.
I think it was Mark Twain that wrote: "When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."
Ron MacRae
05-04-2010, 11:39
As Fishy is only 15 years old and considered a minor.......
That is a very significant piece of information. I've no idea about Fishy's club but our club will not accept Ocean Diver trainees under 16 and even then parental supervision is required. We will relax the age limit slightly if a parent is a scuba diver in our club, who should understand the risks. If it was up to me the age limit would be 18.
I learned to dive along with my 14 year old son. When we started I had no idea SCUBA was a dangerous sport. This wasn't mentioned during the PADI try dive or at the initial meetings with the local BSAC club. 2 weeks into the BSAC OD course I wanted to drop out but, as a parent, once you've said yes to a child it's hard to say no. I was, at the time, extremely angry that none of this was pointed out beforehand.
Had I not been doing the course along with my son I would have been completely ignorant of the dangers, and IMO the CLUB/BSAC would have been criminally negligent had my son had any problems.
My son did have a number of problems, which IMO were age related, during his Ocean Diver training. E.g. loosing a weight belt @ 20m. Fortunatly he was buddied with a pair of very experienced divers, who managed to hold him down until he got it back on. He managed to survive the next few years and is now an excellent diver.
When my other two younger sons wanted to dive I made them wait until they were 16 and I was very selective on where they dived until they were 18.
I'm now DO of that same club and realise my own experience will have coloured my judgement, but IMO children do not believe they can die and are therefore less than scrupulous with their preparations. I have no intention of ever getting myself into the situation where I have the death or injury of a child on my conscience.
If we ever were to have a child Ocean Diver I'd be very selective on where I'd let him/her dive. My sympathy is now very much with Fishy's DO but I wouldn't have let Fishy join the club in the first place.
I realise I'm out of step with both PADI & BSAC, but then I'm not influenced by the financial aspects:mad: :mad: . If children want to dive elsewhere then that's on someone else's conscience, not mine:mad: .
This web page (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lpt/kids.htm) sums up my opinions on this. While it's a bit theatrical/American, I think it's largly true.
Ron.
Tony Dwyer
05-04-2010, 12:10
As Fishy is only 15 years old and considered a minor, we dont know whether his mother might even have spoken to the DO and voiced her concerns about her child diving outside the club, on YD thats what Fishy aka James S posted saying that.
In my old club minors couldnt dive without a recognised guardian being present on the trip even as a non diver. Can someone from Fishy's club tell us what their rules are?
We have the same rule in our branch. We do not accept 'in loco parentis' responsibility, except while under water. A parent or guardian is required to supervise their minor at all other times. It's simply not our job.
gobfish1
05-04-2010, 12:11
That is a very significant piece of information. I've no idea about Fishy's club but our club will not accept Ocean Diver trainees under 16 and even then parental supervision is required. We will relax the age limit slightly if a parent is a scuba diver in our club, who should understand the risks. If it was up to me the age limit would be 18.
I learned to dive along with my 14 year old son. When we started I had no idea SCUBA was a dangerous sport. This wasn't mentioned during the PADI try dive or at the initial meetings with the local BSAC club. 2 weeks into the BSAC OD course I wanted to drop out but, as a parent, once you've said yes to a child it's hard to say no. I was, at the time, extremely angry that none of this was pointed out beforehand.
Had I not been doing the course along with my son I would have been completely ignorant of the dangers, and IMO the CLUB/BSAC would have been criminally negligent had my son had any problems.
My son did have a number of problems, which IMO were age related, during his Ocean Diver training. E.g. loosing a weight belt @ 20m. Fortunatly he was buddied with a pair of very experienced divers, who managed to hold him down until he got it back on. He managed to survive the next few years and is now an excellent diver.
When my other two younger sons wanted to dive I made them wait until they were 16 and I was very selective on where they dived until they were 18.
I'm now DO of that same club and realise my own experience will have coloured my judgement, but IMO children do not believe they can die and are therefore less than scrupulous with their preparations. I have no intention of ever getting myself into the situation where I have the death or injury of a child on my conscience.
If we ever were to have a child Ocean Diver I'd be very selective on where I'd let him/her dive. My sympathy is now very much with Fishy's DO but I wouldn't have let Fishy join the club in the first place.
I realise I'm out of step with both PADI & BSAC, but then I'm not influenced by the financial aspects:mad: :mad: . If children want to dive elsewhere then that's on someone else's conscience, not mine:mad: .
This web page (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lpt/kids.htm) sums up my opinions on this. While it's a bit theatrical/American, I think it's largly true.
Ron.
good post , and i think your spot on ,, your club seems to run on the same line as my club when it comes to kids ,, and diving ,,
ps
Fishy's if i was your DO id have your log book and you would be out ,, plus id be having a strong word with your perents and prob something in the post to them
Tony Dwyer
05-04-2010, 12:30
Let's stop being polite.
Fishie is a brat who trying to use us to justify thumbing his nose at the people who are trying to stop him killing himself.
When he grows up he will appreciate them.
I think it was Mark Twain that wrote: "When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."
One day, when my son was in his early twenties, he said to me, 'Dad, I was a complete prat for years. How did you put up with me?'
I replied,'all boys go through that on the way to becoming men. I certainly did. Fortunately you and I both survived the experience. Many don't'.
ChristianG
05-04-2010, 14:16
This web page (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lpt/kids.htm) sums up my opinions on this. While it's a bit theatrical/American, I think it's largly true.
Yep, he does like Powerpoint and it was written quite some time ago (in SCUBA terms) but he says things that I too much agree with.
I think this thread ran its course long ago.
@Fishy, There are a number of BSAC Centres littered around the country that offer BSAC courses that could be done relatively quickly, like within a couple of weeks. So if you can afford it, maybe grab your Sports ticket via a centre. Then you are officially at the point where the whole "ocean diver is a basic ticket and sports is the real minimum ticket to go diving" becomes obsolete. Then go diving. If not well i guess you need to do it via your club, which may take some months.
If you dont get on with your club, find another one, there are loads available.
If BSAC doesnt appeal to you anymore, then try one of the many other agencies that exist.
Personally id bin the club and go diving. Clubs just bring to much politics and crap with them. You've had loads of offers to go diving from people, so go diving.
Personally id bin the club and go diving. Clubs just bring to much politics and crap with them. You've had loads of offers to go diving from people, so go diving.
Some clubs bring too much politics and crap with them for some people some of the time. They can also be a great way to go diving with a great bunch of friends. Mine certainly is for me. Plus there's the informal mentoring thing.
James - I don't know you from Adam, but it's the internet so I can make snap judgements based on no knowledge ;) - but I think your energy and enthusiasm is misdirected. Instead of focusing on kit [1] or future training I would focus on organising the diving you want to do now.
I managed to get my Sports Diver signed off in a month or so because I collared my DO in the pub, and offered to pick him up and drive him to Stoney if he'd teach me SO3 and SO4 (or whatever). If you can do something similar, then you'll find it more rewarding than any twinset.
Janos
[1] - You'll only end up flogging it a few weeks or months later.
Ron MacRae
05-04-2010, 20:02
If BSAC doesnt appeal to you anymore, then try one of the many other agencies that exist.
Yes there are quite a few predatory agencies, including BSAC unfortunatly, that will take the money to train a child who isn't mature enough to fully evaluate the dangers. I think he was lucky enough to find a club that wasn't in this catagory this time. He might not be so lucky next time.
Ron.
Mike Halligan
06-04-2010, 20:56
Yeah! I used Larry a great deal in developing my own view on the subject when Acting DO, and I have not changed it much since.
Ron Evans
06-04-2010, 22:18
Oh dear.
Incidents may increase if you haven't been trained in a 3 or have little experience of diving as a 3. Within BSAC most 3's end up as a 2 + 1, which is not the case with everyone.
Don't assume all 3's are a bad idea.
Not sure why you need to add you are an ex DO.
Diving as a 3 was brought up by Brian Cummings when he presented the Incidents Report in 2008, as being a potentially significant factor.
"Ex-DO" - so you know where I am coming from, it's not a boast (as the other ex-DO's will tell you, it's a one of the stigmata).;)
Michael Purcell
07-04-2010, 05:04
Diving as a 3 was brought up by Brian Cummings when he presented the Incidents Report in 2008, as being a potentially significant factor.
"Ex-DO" - so you know where I am coming from, it's not a boast (as the other ex-DO's will tell you, it's a one of the stigmata).;)
As pointed out when "Buddy" divers dive in threes there is so much potential for something to go wrong. When team divers dive in threes it is a different story.
I do both. But when I dive as a "Buddy 3" on PADI bobbles (20m, no current, known site), I ensure the other 2 divers are "Buddied" and I am the tag-along. Our separation procedure is "buddy pair follow a traditional separation procedure...and separation procedure between me and the "Buddy" pair is look around for 45 minutes or the end of dive and then surface."
When I dive as a team 3 (or more challenging conditions) everyone relies on everyone and if a member is compromised we are all compromised. It's all about risk assessment and communication before you get underwater.
Look around for 45 minutes? Sounds like a plan... :)
A little extra clarity on DO's responsibility please. In my case I'm Iantd trimix certified open circuit, I fully intend to persue a normoxic mod 2 ticket for my ccr this year, but as bsac curently doesn't offer any courses for my sentinel it will be through an Iantd route. Are you saying that the DO of my club will have to take the responsibility for the training that I will carry out away from the club and all my subsiquent ccr diving - if so i'm amazed that any body will take this level of responsibility on or let other agency qualified techincal divers join a club when the DO can't asses the diving :eek: .
A little extra clarity on DO's responsibility please. In my case I'm Iantd trimix certified open circuit, I fully intend to persue a normoxic mod 2 ticket for my ccr this year, but as bsac curently doesn't offer any courses for my sentinel it will be through an Iantd route. Are you saying that the DO of my club will have to take the responsibility for the training that I will carry out away from the club and all my subsiquent ccr diving - if so i'm amazed that any body will take this level of responsibility on or let other agency qualified techincal divers join a club when the DO can't asses the diving :eek: .
Yes. That's right.
But a DO doesn't necessarily have to be able to do the dives you can do. They just need to be able to reassure themselves that you can do the dives. Your c-card from another agency will help them do this.
Janos
JAnos
vBulletin v3.5.4, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.