Dive Mag - heavy on the sharks

[Rich]

Talk about overkill with the Sharks in the latest Mag. WHY? I'd now like to think thats the next 5 years worth over and done with....

[Nigel Hewitt]

Talk about overkill with the Sharks in the latest Mag. WHY? I'd now like to think thats the next 5 years worth over and done with....

Nahhh. Just a bit of cheap filler to keep the costs down while everybodies spent their advertizing budget on going to the dive show. You're not expected to read it.

[Ben Field]

Flippin useless waste of paper!!

Sharks sharks sharks, fine but didn't we have a Shark special last year? The one with the CD? (Or was that DIVER? dunno they all seem the same once there under the cat litter box...)

Sorry, its all very informative but most semi-intelligent divers even members of the no-diving public know of and about sharks as they have this stupid "JAWS" reputation. In many ways they are the last aquatic animal requiring a Special as we know most of it anyway!

Why not a special on whales, sea otters, star fish, herring, tuna, John Dory or Dead Mens fingers???

I think that DIVE are just using up all the Shark articles they buy or are sent because star fish and urchins aren't "exciting" enough.

Did you read the "how to use Ebay" article- OH MY GOD- how stupid do they think we are? Another 5-6 pages that just amount to an advert for e-bay, nothing else.

I can't believe the journo thought his cylinder purchase was worthwhile, ?80 -odd quid for a manky old tank that'll need ?20-40 quids worth of testing, would have been cheaper to get ripped off at the dive show by some crooked shop keeper flogging year old bottles :)

What else- a review of a ?1000 dive computer, yes something everyone will be interested in...
I know DIVE only review stuiff they are sent which is what leads to such stupid bits of kit being reviewed, why can't they take the bull by the horns, go out and buy all the stuff real divers use and review that?

This is the third or forth time this year I've been moved to write about "our" magazine. BSAC PLEASE can we just ditch the magazine and have a newsletter, let people buy their own choice of magazine?

(Unfortunatly the wonderful 9>90 is defunct (The only true UK diving magazine there has been) replaced by the somewhat pricey Beyond the Blue IIRC?)

[Dave Leigh]

Flippin useless waste of paper!!

Quite right!

I gave up trying to suggest a better approach to the BSAC magazine last year. As always the National Committee wouldn't listen.

If I was BSAC I would be embarrassed, ashamed or just plain angry by Dive magazine - it's supposed to represent our organisation.

Dave

[Nigel Hewitt]

If I was BSAC I would be embarrassed, ashamed or just plain angry by Dive magazine - it's supposed to represent our organisation.

It isn't going to change so it isn't really worth worrying about. In theory it is nice to have a national magazine as the distributor of club information but the problem for a diving magazine is what to print. There are only a few generic article subjects so in the end the editor is reduced to taking whatever photographer is prepared to do a cut price deal to get a puff of his work. They aren't going to feature 'Nigel dives Finland' because the vis was just like it is in the channel so not many good photographs.
I can sympathise. The still unfilled pages list must get daunting as the press date draws near but I still don't like the preponderance of warm water/wildlife stuff. (Oh and the 'How I learnt to dive on a rebreather' every few months is wearing a bit thin too.)

nigelH

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Quite right!

I gave up trying to suggest a better approach to the BSAC magazine last year. As always the National Committee wouldn't listen.

Oh did you? Then would you care to share with me details of this exchange becuase I do not recall seeing anything and nothing was ever discussed at Council level. Please call me on 01279 817605 to discuss this, I don't like being accused of not listening when nothing has ever been heard!

Keith L

[Gordon Nimmo]

Flippin useless waste of paper!!


Ive just been diving since April (Ocean Diver with 26 dives logged-and trying to get in the water as often as poss.).

I think the mag, for people in my position, is pretty useful, with regards to getting kit, reading about dive sites etc. I can understand with guys like yourself with loads of dives done that it doubles up as bog roll on the charter boat, but cut it some slack, there is guys out here that get something from it.

g.

[Ben Field]

> Ive just been diving since April (Ocean Diver with 26 dives
> logged-and trying to get in the water as often as poss.).

Hi Gordon, Well done for getting such a lot done in such a short time, a credit to your club IMO.

> I think the mag, for people in my position, is pretty useful, > with regards to getting kit, reading about dive sites etc.

Really? Now, this is interesting...

I assume you mean the magazine in general, not just this issue but lets take it as a case in point shall we?

Which bits did you "a new'ish diver" find of most interest and compare them to the bits I found interesting (8yrs and 350dives, not getting in the water anywhere near as often as I'd like... :(

Which if a three or four reviews happened to focus on a product you are interested in adding to your kit right now?
Did you read all 427 pages of Shark porn? :)

Seriously, (I know the last line was silly) so seriously what was useful in this issue?

[Gordon Nimmo]

Hi Ben

Hi Gordon, Well done for getting such a lot done in such a short time, a credit to your club IMO.

Cheers, its a good club I dive with.

Seriously, (I know the last line was silly) so seriously what was useful in this issue?

Well, the Mag in general is good, but I cant see myself buying a wreck (although I may want to sell one, my Peugeot 306 if anyone is interested! New dive site in the Forth anyone??). The shark thing was a wee bit OTT.

[Dave Leigh]

:=I gave up trying to suggest a better approach to the BSAC magazine last year. As always the National Committee wouldn't listen.

Oh did you? Then would you care to share with me details of this exchange becuase I do not recall seeing anything and nothing was ever discussed at Council level. Please call me on 01279 817605 to discuss this, I don't like being accused of not listening when nothing has ever been heard!

I'm amazed you've got the front to claim that nothing has ever been heard when you know perfectly well that that's not the case.
In 2002 there was an extended debate in these forums about the magazine. Practical alternatives were suggested. You said (in a number of your posts) that these comments had been noted and read by the committee (This is just one of your posts Keith - <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/61.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/61.html</a>) I also believe that some kind of working party was conviened.
I know for a fact that Phil Harrison and other members of the council spoke to some of the members concerned.
There have been a number of discussions since then in the forums.
But where are we now? Pretty much where we started.

It's just a shame that BSAC can't own up to having made a mistake with the Dive contract and look to a better alternative.

Dave

[Khaled Alwassia]

Oh and the 'How I learnt to dive on a rebreather' every few months is wearing a bit thin too.)

You do not know how right your are with that statement.

Khaled

[Khaled Alwassia]

Dave,
we here in Saudi Arabia are always acussed to live in the 14 Century but even i now that 2002 was not last year (as stated in your first message).

Khaled

[Mike Rowley]

Keith

One of the better moves of Council (In my opinion) was to put the magazine contract up for tender. However, this excellent policy has not been continued. A bit of insecurity and competition invariably concentrates managing editors minds toward innovation, originality and quality. In addition, it mitigates against cosey relationships forming between political elites and contractors. Before I receive the customary flaming, I am not in any way suggesting that this latter is currently the case.

It is interesting to note that many people feel that Diver magazine is a better magazine since they lost the BSAC contract.

Leaving aside the debate about whether we need a glossy magazine, a legitimate but etirely separate debate, Council should put the contract out to tender on a regular basis, say 3 or 4 years. The exact period would need to reflect the requirements of BSAC and the time for a publisher to recoup investment.

Just a suggestion from someone who has seen this debate arise numerous times over the last 30 years.

Mike




Oh did you? Then would you care to share with me details of this exchange becuase I do not recall seeing anything and nothing was ever discussed at Council level. Please call me on 01279 817605 to discuss this, I don't like being accused of not listening when nothing has ever been heard!

Keith L

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Dave

Right! Let?s get this straight shall we. I objected very strongly to what was (to me) an offensive, inaccurate and damn right WRONG ?fact? that you posted ?

?I gave up trying to suggest a better approach to the BSAC magazine last year. As always the National Committee wouldn't listen.?

Misleading and idiotic statements like that get us nowhere, portray the club in a bad light and are offensive to the volunteers on Council and elsewhere who give up their time trying to improve the club. Then you have the nerve to accuse ME of having a short memory ?

?I'm amazed you've got the front to claim that nothing has ever been heard when you know perfectly well that that's not the case.?

Let?s get some fact straight shall we ?
1. The events you are referring to were in 2002, when a considerable amount of work WAS put in by Council and others, and not ?last year?.
2. You then claim that ?As always the National Committee wouldn't listen?, but now you?ve even contradicted yourself with ?I also believe that some kind of working party was conviened. I know for a fact that Phil Harrison and other members of the council spoke to some of the members concerned.?. Make your mind up.

So if you?re going to start slagging off the club, me, and my fellow volunteers will you kindly at least do it on the basis of FACT and not with puerile throw away remarks that bear no relationship whatsoever to what was, and still is, happening. I feel that you should apologise for both of those remarks, but don?t worry ? I?m not holding my breath.

So, to the matter in hand : if you?re going to start quoting threads from that era then may I suggest that you also look at this one - <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/82.html," >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/82.html,</a> that explains in some detail the considerations that we have to take into account when looking at the provision of the club magazine There has been no seismic shift in the practicality and economics of publishing and marketing over the past two years and those comments are just as valid today as they were then.

What has been happening over the past two years is that I feel we have been improving our relationship with DIP, we have regular monthly meetings where there is a full exchange of ideas and with the help of DIP we have further integrated the magazine into our strategies and initiatives. My personal perception (I?m not actually involved with this area) is that many of the comments from that time were taken on board (this was something that I did discuss with Simon personally) and things like the club spots, the UK diving write-ups and the marketing articles have been generally very well received. I personally feel that Dive magazine is a better magazine, both in terms of UK diving and in terms of BSAC matters, than it was two years ago. It?s not perfect, but then nothing ever will be and all that we can do is continue to improve things as we have been doing.

We are not standing still on the subject of Dive, we never have been and we never will be. Comments such as those made in this thread, plus of course the emails etc. that we and Dive get, ARE taken into consideration, I know that Simon (Dive?s editor) reads these forums because he emails me about things on here. All views are taken into consideration, just remember that?s ALL views and not just the vocal anti-Dive magazine comments frequently made on these forums by the usual suspects.

I haven?t had the chance to read Dive fully this month, I?ve just leafed through. My purely personal view is that it was a bit ?heavy? on the overseas and sharks, but then my wife Wendy loved that section and found it very interesting. I also thought that the EBay article was a bit long, but then my wife thought it was quite good and thought that they had missed some bits out! Now, this very small and very un-scientific ?survey? does however prove conclusively one fundamental fact ? you are NEVER going to produce a magazine that everybody enjoys from cover to cover, it just isn?t possible. Welcome to the real world!

I think we?ll just have to leave it there. Nothing has fundamentally changed, we?re still working with Dive, we?re still listening to and taking on board comments made via several mediums. But we?ve all got to keep in mind the golden rule ?

Golden Rule #1 : You will never please everybody.

Keith L

[Alan Ewart]

Talk about overkill with the Sharks in the latest Mag. WHY? I'd now like to think thats the next 5 years worth over and done with....

Wow, Obviously a lot of strong feeling flying around about this.

I think I may be a minority of 1 here. Personally I enjoy the magazine immensly and look forward to it dropping on my doormat each month. I would buy it if I didn't get it as part of my membership (and did without fail prior to joining BSAC).

I really enjoyed the shark feature, especially the pictures of the copper sharks feeding on the sardine run.

I also enjoy the monthly feature on British marine life & the section featuring a charter boat. The 'It happened to me' feature frequently offers a strong reminder on safety and helps to avoid complacency. It would be interesting to see more features on UK & european diving, but I enjoy the features on warm water diving just as much as it gives information on where I might like to go for my next holiday.

This month I really enjoyed the feature on the lusitania, a 76 year old making a 90+M dive! I find that inspirational, especially as I am the planning stages of moving into extended range myself. I would have liked the article to have contained a bit more technical info.

All in all I think the mag is a very good read, certainly as good as the other 'mainstream' diving mags. Sure it could be improved, but couldn't they all?

Just one Scouts opinion.


regards

Alan

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Thanks Mike

One of the better moves of Council (In my opinion) was to put the magazine contract up for tender. However, this excellent policy has not been continued. A bit of insecurity and competition invariably concentrates managing editors minds toward innovation, originality and quality. In addition, it mitigates against cosey relationships forming between political elites and contractors.

The other side of that particular coin is of course that fixed term contracts can be a disincentive to innovation with suppliers either frightened to try something new or not bothering until contract renewal time :-) We don?t do ?cosy relationships?, we do business relationships. Most of the day-to-day work with Dive is actually done by HQ BTW, that in itself removes any political element and keeps things on a very business like footing.

Leaving aside the debate about whether we need a glossy magazine, a legitimate but etirely separate debate, Council should put the contract out to tender on a regular basis, say 3 or 4 years. The exact period would need to reflect the requirements of BSAC and the time for a publisher to recoup investment.

For the reasons I?ve given above I?m not entirely happy with that idea, my personal feeling is that if you?ve got something that works then why muck about with it for the sake of it? The Dive contract is a rolling contract, it is in both Dive?s and the clubs interest to make it work and to improve it. It was in fact amended this year by mutual consent of both parties, nothing is ever cast in stone and we?re constantly trying to improve things.

I can assure you that if things did stop working or some new proposal came forward then Council would indeed look at it very seriously, I suspect that Dive hold very much the same practical and business like view of things. The view of the current Council is that what we?ve got now is in the best interests of the club, that could of course change in the future, a future Council may take a different view.

My personal view Mike is that we are better off with the flexibility. I don?t want the club stuck with something for a fixed four (or whatever) year term, I also don?t want to be forced to change something and start all over again just because some artificial calendar event has occurred. There is one thing that I can however promise you Mike ? the subject will be debated just as hotly over the next thirty years as over the previous thirty :-)

Regards

Keith L

[David Walker]

So, to the matter in hand : if you?re going to start quoting threads from that era then may I suggest that you also look at this one - <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/82.html," >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/82.html,</a> that explains in some detail the considerations that we have to take into account when looking at the provision of the club magazine There has been no seismic shift in the practicality and economics of publishing and marketing over the past two years and those comments are just as valid today as they were then.

Not that it really bothers me at the minute (i'm a student so not forced to get it), but why are all full members forced to get the magazine as part of their subscription anyway? If it contained some vital information, many people could get that from the BSAC website, otherwise why do we need a magazine to dive with BSAC?
Just idle thoughts really, but if people aren't happy with the magazine, why not let them opt out and get a discount on membership instead.

David

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Hi David - some very quick answers for you...

Not that it really bothers me at the minute (i'm a student so not forced to get it), but why are all full members forced to get the magazine as part of their subscription anyway? If it contained some vital information, many people could get that from the BSAC website, otherwise why do we need a magazine to dive with BSAC?

From the survey sitting in front of me only about 70% of people visit the web sites but over 90% have used Dive magazine as an information source. BOTH are very important to us, I wouldn't want to stop either of them.

Just idle thoughts really, but if people aren't happy with the magazine, why not let them opt out and get a discount on membership instead.

Firstly it is an obligation under our constitution that we provide a club magazine, the costs of doing so ourselves would in fact exceed the costs of Dive. Secondly, the actual cost to each member of their included Dive subscription is a small fraction of the cover price, far less than a personal subscription and only a small part of the overall BSAC subscription. Any such discount would be far smaller than many people imagine.

So we have to communicate somehow, a magazine is a very good way of doing so, the actual cost of Dive makes it an extreemly cost efficient way of doing it!

HTH

Keith L

[Mike Rowley]

I think we will have to agree to differ Keith. However, I can't honestly claim to have any storng feelings either way on the issue. I would personally prefer publishers to operate under the certain knowledge that they would have to win the contract periodically but would not make an issue of it or loose any sleep over the status quo.

To be truthfull "Dive" seldom contains content of great interest to me but then, neither does "Diver". I do however, understand the need for BSAC to communicate.

Cheers

Mike

My personal view Mike is that we are better off with the flexibility. I don?t want the club stuck with something for a fixed four (or whatever) year term, I also don?t want to be forced to change something and start all over again just because some artificial calendar event has occurred. There is one thing that I can however promise you Mike ? the subject will be debated just as hotly over the next thirty years as over the previous thirty :-)

Regards

Keith L

[Dave Leigh]

Let?s get some fact straight shall we ?
1. The events you are referring to were in 2002, when a considerable amount of work WAS put in by Council and others, and not ?last year?.

I stand corrected on the timing of the raising of the issues - although concerns about Dive magazine were also raised in this forum last year. I couldn't remember exactly when it happened.

2. You then claim that ?As always the National Committee wouldn't listen?, but now you?ve even contradicted yourself with ?I also believe that some kind of working party was conviened. I know for a fact that Phil Harrison and other members of the council spoke to some of the members concerned.?. Make your mind up.

As often happens these discussions went on behind closed doors and like many people, I was not party to either the decision-making process that chose to go with Dive, or the process that went on a couple of years ago with regard to changing the club's magazine.
My complaint is that it seems that The Council had already made up their mind. Whilst I was not party to the phone conversation's I believe that it was to try to justify the BSAC/Dive postion, and NOT consultation.


So if you?re going to start slagging off the club, me, and my fellow volunteers will you kindly at least do it on the basis of FACT and not with puerile throw away remarks that bear no relationship whatsoever to what was, and still is, happening. I feel that you should apologise for both of those remarks, but don?t worry ? I?m not holding my breath.

Keith. I am fed up of your arrogance and fake high moral ground. My comments are entirely justified and correct to the facts that I have been given.
I am also fed up of the secretive way in which members of the BSAC council carry out their business and the attempt to slap down any dissent.


So, to the matter in hand : if you?re going to start quoting threads from that era then may I suggest that you also look at this one - <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/82.html," >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/genforum/posts/82.html,</a> that explains in some detail the considerations that we have to take into account when looking at the provision of the club magazine There has been no seismic shift in the practicality and economics of publishing and marketing over the past two years and those comments are just as valid today as they were then.

What economics? Are these the one's you won't discuss with the membership because they're a commercial secret?

I personally feel that Dive magazine is a better magazine, both in terms of UK diving and in terms of BSAC matters, than it was two years ago. It?s not perfect, but then nothing ever will be and all that we can do is continue to improve things as we have been doing.

I think the latest issue makes a mockery of that.

Is Dive a diving magazine for BSAC members or a shark magazine?

[Helen Butcher]

Ive just been diving since April (Ocean Diver with 26 dives logged-and trying to get in the water as often as poss.).

Me too - i have been open water diving since april too, also ocean diver with 16 dives logged, struggling to get in the water as often as i would like due to my rota (i'm a vet and am only available 1:2 evenings and weekends!), and also struggling recently due to poor weather, and poor vis!


I think the mag, for people in my position, is pretty useful, with regards to getting kit, reading about dive sites etc. I can understand with guys like yourself with loads of dives done that it doubles up as bog roll on the charter boat, but cut it some slack, there is guys out here that get something from it.

Ditto - i especially like the "guide to" features, as at the moment everything is new and i just can't get enough info about diving. I also really enjoy the letters page - always the first section to get read as its a way of being exposed to different opinions to those i've come across so far in my club - always interesting! I also enjoy the "it happened to me" features as surely we can all glean something from these and hopefully avoid making the same mistakes...I also enjoy the wreck guide features and actually made use of these to help people plan their dives on a recent trip to dive the Scylla (though it was actually aborted in the end due to poor weather!)
I have also used the advertising section at the back to find charter boats in the plymouth area when planning said trip, and as a bit of a price guide before going to my local dive shop to negotiate!

Interestingly, this came up recently on the way back from plymouth from the aborted scylla trip, when i was chatting with my DO and (now ex-)TO about diving magazines. they also missed the magazine 9-90, though ive never seen it. they said that they read the letters and it happened to me type stuff too, and would like more of this and less of the warm water diving articles. they also liked the articles about british diving, and felt this was more relevant to a lot of club diving (though admittedly not all!)

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

OK, as long as we have established that your original claim that we had done nothing and were ignoring thing was wrong I?m happy with that.

As often happens these discussions went on behind closed doors and like many people, I was not party to either the decision-making process that chose to go with Dive, or the process that went on a couple of years ago with regard to changing the club's magazine.

The discussions that I (an others) had on this matter were, by necessity (see below), private and detailed. I was not party to the decision to change to Dive either BTW, before my time.

My complaint is that it seems that The Council had already made up their mind. Whilst I was not party to the phone conversation's I believe that it was to try to justify the BSAC/Dive postion, and NOT consultation.

Your assumption is wrong in the first part and therefore your conclusion is wrong in the second part. As I promised at the time I independently reviewed the figures and sought expert advice from those who know a damn sight more about publishing than me. This was summarised in my forum post that I referred to back in 2002. I know that other people (on and off Council) also looked at it and came to the same conclusion as me ? that the original decision was correct.

I am sorry if my detailed review did not reach the conclusion that you personally wanted. The only position that I was trying to justify was MINE, I needed to be absolutely sure that I was telling you the truth and that the Dive contract was in the best interests of the club. I genuinely believe that it is, I never have and I never will ?cover? for anybody. I did exactly what I promised to, I am sorry if that isn?t what you wanted.

Keith. I am fed up of your arrogance and fake high moral ground. My comments are entirely justified and correct to the facts that I have been given. I am also fed up of the secretive way in which members of the BSAC council carry out their business and the attempt to slap down any dissent.

Regarding what you think of me ? tough. I?m the Council geek, WYSIWYG and if you don?t like it then don?t vote for it. This one bites back, if somebody has a go at me then I am more than capable of giving just as good as I get. It was ME and not Council that was ?slapping down?, and it wasn?t dissent it was down right misinformation and BSAC bashing for the sake of it. You can show as much dissent as you like, but start doing it in the manner that you have here and you?ll get exactly the same from me.

Of necessity much of Council business is private as it is highly detailed, very little is actually ?secret? ? that which is I can assure you is of no major significance to the everyday running of the club and can be quite unpleasant and distressing at times. You?ll just have to trust me on this, what we deem ?confidential? you wouldn?t want to know about or have to deal with anyway :-(

What economics? Are these the one's you won't discuss with the membership because they're a commercial secret?

Yes they are, but I?ll tell you once again why I will not disclose detailed figures on a public forum. There will probably come a time when we do renegotiate or re-tender the magazine contract, I have no idea when or why because I cannot predict the future, but let?s assume that we put it out to tender shall we ?

Do you know what is the most important piece of information that any bidder would love to get their hands on? The one snippet of information that could cost the club dear? I?ll tell you what it is ? it?s the price per copy we pay! You see, instead of bidding and giving us the best price they can we would get a price that ?the market would bear?, those two prices can be completely different. So THAT is why I refuse to discuss detailed financial information here, it most certainly would not be in the bests interests of the club to do so.

This is no different to any other business, there is lots of detailed financial information that I and my fellow Council members are party to, we all understand the importance of such financial confidentiality and that is why we do not discuss it in public. I?m sorry but that?s the way that it is when your trying to manage a ?2m+ turnover on behalf of our members, you?ll just have to trust us to do it, vote somebody else in if you don?t.

:=I personally feel that Dive magazine is a better magazine, both in terms of UK diving and in terms of BSAC matters, than it was two years ago. It?s not perfect, but then nothing ever will be and all that we can do is continue to improve things as we have been doing.

I think the latest issue makes a mockery of that.

As I have already stated the current issue wasn?t exactly to my personal taste, but then again I don?t think that I?ve ever read any dive magazine that was. But I also take the longer term and overall view, I subscribe to several magazines (not all of them diving) and sometimes I think ?wow ? that was a duff issue this month?, but I don?t start complaining and cancelling subscriptions on the basis of just one issue. You cannot judge this matter on the basis of one issue.

Is Dive a diving magazine for BSAC members or a shark magazine?

It would seem that this month it?s a bit of each :-) Depends whether you personally like that type of thing I suppose.

Keith L

[David Walker]

From the survey sitting in front of me only about 70% of people visit the web sites but over 90% have used Dive magazine as an information source. BOTH are very important to us, I wouldn't want to stop either of them.

Ah yeah, I certainly don't think abandoning a BSAC magazine would be a good move (although a simple newsletter could get the same message across just as easily). The other point is that 90% may have "used Dive ... as an information source", I would be interested to know really how many people do read the magazine properly (rather than skip through to the 2 or 3 articles they like and ignore the rest) - it may be that everyone does occasionally see the odd useful thing, and so answers 'yes' when asked, but how many would notice a small message lost in the dozens of pages of a magazine? In reality if there was an important message to get across then a newsletter would be *better*, since people could potentially see everything and read it all, rather than skipping pages that don't look interesting.


Firstly it is an obligation under our constitution that we provide a club magazine, the costs of doing so ourselves would in fact exceed the costs of Dive.

Yeah - I see the benefit of not doing the magazine yourself, but my point was more "why a magazine at all?" - obviously if it's in the constitution then for now it has to be done, but that could of course be changed if there was support for having the option.

Secondly, the actual cost to each member of their included Dive subscription is a small fraction of the cover price, far less than a personal subscription and only a small part of the overall BSAC subscription. Any such discount would be far smaller than many people imagine.

Probably - but for those who don't like Dive, who never read it, then it would be nice to have an option in the membership renewals to say 'yes' or 'no' to subscribing to Dive at the same time.

So we have to communicate somehow, a magazine is a very good way of doing so, the actual cost of Dive makes it an extreemly cost efficient way of doing it!

... as long as people don't skip over the pages that BSAC think are important, mixed in with the adverts, articles, and everything else.

Just thoughts - like I said I don't really care because it doesn't affect me yet, but I think it is a consideration for those who don't like Dive. By giving the choice you're not changing anything for those who like it, there may be a small loss in the economies of scale if the circulation drops but in the numbers I expect BSAC buy I don't think the change would be significant.
For your consideration if the topic ever comes up in Council again - do with it as you wish :o)

David

[Rich]

Talk about overkill with the Sharks in the latest Mag. WHY? I'd now like to think thats the next 5 years worth over and done with....

Sorry for the pandoras box I seemed to have opened, chaps (inparticular Keith), my sentiments were geared at this very latest issue which was in my opinion OTT on the shark front. HOWEVER, I still regularly look forward to Dive Magazine (as other diving mags, that I subscribe to) falling on my door mat each month. Most people who are keen divers within their respective clubs will read and exchange comment on the latest issue, swapping positive chat, surrounding an article or whatever that catches their eye.

Obviously Im not privy to the strings that work the eventual production of Dive - and to be frank Im not that bothered. I still think its a great magazine that represents OUR club very well. Some issues better than others, but like Keith said - you cant please everybody all the time.

Rich

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Hi Rich

No need to apologise! Any members views are always welcome, that is what these forums are for. Don?t worry about me, I?m used to it ? it goes with the territory :-)

Keith L

[Khaled Alwassia]

Please mind your language.

[Khaled Alwassia]

Mike & Keith,
I get both Magazines and the Asian Diver, what is do not like in both magazines is that you can find a idea for an article in either Diver or Dive in one month and then within the next three month it is in the other, Ok slighly different but still the same.
I understand that Dive is a UK / BSAC magazine, but the then agian the BSAC has a large number of international members which are bored to death of reading the UK Dive site reports.

But i under stand the the UK diver wants those.

As Keith said damed if you do'nt dammed it you do.

By the way i like the last Dive, especially the reports about branches in trouble. That is the kind of staff everybody is interested to read because it is not regional. That may be an idea to be past on the Dive.

Khaled

[derek perry]

Keith. At least you put your head above the parapet and regularly fight the Council corner, and answer questions/queries, but then do expect to get shot at. At least it shows how passionate people are about BSAC

Keep it up; we do appreciate the hard work you do for us.

Derek Perry
D.O.
Kensington Cosmos, London
PS I do agree totally ott about Sharks.


Hi Rich

No need to apologise! Any members views are always welcome, that is what these forums are for. Don?t worry about me, I?m used to it ? it goes with the territory :-)

Keith L

[Ben Field]

&gt; This month I really enjoyed the feature on the lusitania, a
&gt; 76 year old making a 90+M dive!

In the last couple of months we've seen two non-CE approved (but no doubt excellent) rebreathers in the RB heavy last issue (didn't see any complaints about that but if it happens again with 5-7months I bet people will start to get p*ssed, even the technical % of the club)

Then in this months magazine a dive to 90mtrs.... yup very interesting... neither of them things BSAC divers can do within BSAC!

I realise DIVE probably "has a right to show us whats going on the the wide world of SCUBA" but both articles seemed alittle long and tedious for such a public service annoucement.

Keith has said repeatedly that we shouldn't judge the mag on one issue, which is probably fair. I'm going to wait till the next issue and then read it cover to cover, add that to the pile 4" thick I have of previous read copies and if it falls below standard then I can honestly get back on here and let rip safe in the knowledge I am judging it fairly.

I await next months letters page- no doubt it will feature one positive and one negative letter about the shark-fest and neither will be of the firely variety that DIVE will receive on this topic.

I think we should set some goals for the people at DIVE- Maximum one Red sea mention per news section, Wildlife topics to focus on UK wildlife were at all possible, reviews to be reviews of reallife usable dive gear- not just the most recent ?10000 computer they've been sent.

Any other suggestions?

BEN

[Dave Leigh]

In essence Keith we're going to have to disagree on these issues.

Underlying my complaint is that BSAC, as a membership organisation, should be accountable to it's members.
The club magazine is a prime issue where many members feel that we are not getting the magazine we deserve (as the strap line goes on the magazine). However, The Council has been neither forthright about it's decisions over the contract or how it has considered member's complaints. It is inevitable therefore that people conclude that the matters have not been properly considered.

You may call some elements of The Council discussions 'private', but in an accountable organisation I call that secretive.

On the commercial confidence issue, it is ironic that I can find out more information about many well-known magazines than for the one that is supposed to represent the members of BSAC. Again, I suppose we'll have to continue to disagree.

Although I can understand your reluctance to publish information in the forums, where else can members have this kind of discussion? It's certainly not possible to do it at the DOC or AGM.

My comments about your attitude are not aimed at your character - only at the way you reply to postings. I think your rather indignant manner tends to fan the flames rather than resolve the debate.

Ultimately though the problem is the BSAC is loosing members like diving's going out of fashion (which it isn't). The magazine is supposed to be the flag-ship publication to promote the organisation. It is only natural, therefore, that I would like to see a better publication, or to devote more resources to other forms of marketing in increase the club's membership.

Dave

[Nigel Hewitt]

Underlying my complaint is that BSAC, as a membership organisation, should be accountable to it's members.

We're not doing badly. We have a council member here and we give him hell at times. He doesn't roll over on his back but fights his corner but that's fair as they are the team that are supposed to stay on top of these problems.

The club magazine is a prime issue where many members feel that we are not getting the magazine we deserve (as the strap line goes on the magazine).

Magazines are impossible. Clubs try and do newsletters and trying to get copy is worse than trying to get dive marshals. Contracting out is probably the best deal available.

Diving magazines are like any other specialised group. When you first read them everything is new and interesting. After about three years you begin to realise they are repeating themselves. Why? They've run out of subjects. Motorcycle magazines, photographic magazines and the rest all have the same problem. If you name a subject that they 'ought' to cover odds on if you have the cumulative index it will be there.

My comments about your attitude are not aimed at your character - only at the way you reply to postings. I think your rather indignant manner tends to fan the flames rather than resolve the debate.

At a guess he sits there thinking "No. I won't get drawn in. I really won't." Then finally we push him over the edge. It's usually after somebody knocks off the work somebody has done as worthless or trivial. I suspect KL knows how many arms had to be twisted to get it done in the first place. That's why he's always banging on about volunteers. Volunteers is the polite word for it. Chain gang has more of the flavour of what happens.

Ultimately though the problem is the BSAC is loosing members like diving's going out of fashion (which it isn't).

Is it? Certainly my club seems to be growing and we only lose diving members because they've done something daft like started a family.

The magazine is supposed to be the flag-ship publication to promote the organisation. It is only natural, therefore, that I would like to see a better publication, or to devote more resources to other forms of marketing in increase the club's membership.

That's why it isn't an 'in house' magazine but something you can get in W H Smiths et. al. That means we have to let an editor who is a professional at making a product to sell try and maximise his pick-up rate and probably sharks do that. Whether it actually increases the take-up of potential members is a slightly different matter but bums-on-seats matters as they say.

I must confess to a slight vested interest here. I've dived with KL and quite like the old buffer. Well... maybe not so much of the old, he might just be younger than I am.

nigelH

[Dave Leigh]

:=The club magazine is a prime issue where many members feel that we are not getting the magazine we deserve (as the strap line goes on the magazine).

Magazines are impossible. Clubs try and do newsletters and trying to get copy is worse than trying to get dive marshals. Contracting out is probably the best deal available.

I won't re-hash old arguments here, but I was not necessarily suggesting that we rely on voluntary contributions. There's no problem contracting out as such. But is BSAC really getting value for money? I have no idea because that financial information is apparently confidential.


Diving magazines are like any other specialised group. When you first read them everything is new and interesting. After about three years you begin to realise they are repeating themselves. Why? They've run out of subjects. Motorcycle magazines, photographic magazines and the rest all have the same problem. If you name a subject that they 'ought' to cover odds on if you have the cumulative index it will be there.

I have a good understanding of publishing, so I am well aware of the problems. The issue is whether Dive is the right publication for BSAC in it's current position?

At a guess he sits there thinking "No. I won't get drawn in. I really won't." Then finally we push him over the edge. It's usually after somebody knocks off the work somebody has done as worthless or trivial.

I'm not criticising anyone's work, just the process of decision making in a membership organisation. Neither do I think that just because the council are volunteers should they be unaccountable to the membership.


:=Ultimately though the problem is the BSAC is loosing members like diving's going out of fashion (which it isn't).

Is it? Certainly my club seems to be growing and we only lose diving members because they've done something daft like started a family.

I'm afraid it is loosing members. These figures are one of the few hard facts published and it has shown a steady decline since the mid/late 90's.

That means we have to let an editor who is a professional at making a product to sell try and maximise his pick-up rate and probably sharks do that.

I'm not disputing that it's the editor's decision (although given the response here, I doubt that it would sell many more magazines), but is it the right publication for BSAC members?

Whether it actually increases the take-up of potential members is a slightly different matter but bums-on-seats matters as they say.

But surely that's the whole point? Surely the job of having a BSAC magazine that's published on the news-stands is to gain more members? If it's failing to do that job then we should be considering cheaper alternatives for the membership.


I must confess to a slight vested interest here. I've dived with KL and quite like the old buffer. Well... maybe not so much of the old, he might just be younger than I am.

I'm sure Keith's a good bloke, it's just that his attitude on these forums can be, at times, unhelpful.

Dave