Brass plate salvaged from the Crown Prince Willhelm at Scapa Flow. [Archive]

karenlg123

05-03-2010, 18:20

Steve in Sharm

06-03-2010, 09:01

This brass plate was recovered from the Crown Prince Willhelm, part of the German Fleet scuttled at Scappa Flow. (4 and a half inches wide, 1 inch in height). [URL="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180476946813&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT"]

This plate was given to my father in the late 1960's by Arthur Nundy, who had the salvage rights for the Crown Prince Willhelm. My father, William Gourlay, helped with the blasting to salvage the armour plating from the CPW. Arthur Nundy gave this to him as a token of his thanks.

This is a one off item and an opportunity to own a little bit of history.

How about doing the decent thing and donating to a relevant museum or such?

tony J

06-03-2010, 09:35

How about doing the decent thing and donating to a relevant museum or such?
ouch,

Ron MacRae

06-03-2010, 09:58

How about doing the decent thing and donating to a relevant museum or such?
Well said.

Ron.

ChristianG

06-03-2010, 10:21

Well said.
Actually, if push comes to shove, the seller now has three items of diving interest for sale here, with no other posts at all.
They include a Siebe Gorman knife, I forget the other one off hand and couldn't be bothered to go and look.

Scuba Diva

06-03-2010, 10:55

Is this legit? I thought salvaging inside the bounds of the Flow wasn't allowed? Or is it that it happened in the 60's and rules have changed?

I'm sure the museum in Stromness would be interested in this.

Nigel Hewitt

06-03-2010, 12:28

Is this legit? I thought salvaging inside the bounds of the Flow wasn't allowed? Or is it that it happened in the 60's and rules have changed?
Come off it. I doubt this is recent loot.

Back in the 20s/30s it was "Wanna by a Battleship mate? Recently refloated and only slightly upside down. N thousand tons of good German steel and for you can I do a deal..."

Scuba Diva

06-03-2010, 13:13

Come off it. I doubt this is recent loot.

That's why I asked had the rules changed since the 60's and the answer is apparently yes.

Francis James

06-03-2010, 13:15

Come off it. I doubt this is recent loot.

Back in the 20s/30s it was "Wanna by a Battleship mate? Recently refloated and only slightly upside down. N thousand tons of good German steel and for you can I do a deal..."

Nigel, was it metal from the Scapa fleet that has been stored for special use due to it having no radio active contamination in its structure?

karenlg123

06-03-2010, 14:37

Mike Halligan

06-03-2010, 14:49

Bit sad to see so many people assuming the worst ... it was given by the man who had the "salvage rights" to the CPW. It was not loot.

Sorry. You did explain in your original post.

karenlg123

06-03-2010, 14:56

No problem Mike.. One of the reasons I did explain it was so that people would not jump to the wrong conclusion.

MattS

06-03-2010, 15:35

Bit sad to see so many people assuming the worst ...Welcome to the World of online diving forums. Sorry about that. We do try to discourage it.

...it was given by the man who had the "salvage rights" to the CPW. It was not loot.And some interesting reading there is when you google the name.
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/vanfrank.htm
http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/jralston/rk/scapa/salvage.htm

Thanks.

Fishy49

06-03-2010, 17:23

Nigel, was it metal from the Scapa fleet that has been stored for special use due to it having no radio active contamination in its structure?

Probably - there was a hell of a lot of non-ferrous metal taken from the 60 odd raised. "Jutland to Junkyard" by S C George is a very good book on the topic. And in reply to Scuba Dive's posts, in the 60s salvagers were still trying to blast the ships apart for the metal - I don't think that there were really any special "rules" back then.

karenlg123

06-03-2010, 18:25

Welcome to the World of online diving forums. Sorry about that. We do try to discourage it.

And some interesting reading there is when you google the name.
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/vanfrank.htm
http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/jralston/rk/scapa/salvage.htm

Thanks.

No probs, being new to this site, I was a bit surprised. When we were in the diving game many many years ago it was more like a friendly club and I guess I was thinking it would be along those lines on here. You have restored my faith in human nature a bit! Thanks.

Re Dougall Campbell who wrote that article, my father (who is now over 80 years old ) remembers him from when they were both in the diving business way back when. I have printed the article off for him to read. Thanks for that.

Adrian Kelland

06-03-2010, 18:41

Have actually tried to do the "decent thing" and spoken to a couple of museums re donating and have not yet heard back from anyone as yet. Have an appointment with curator at Glasgow museum and art gallery next Tuesday. Bit sad to see so many people assuming the worst ... it was given by the man who had the "salvage rights" to the CPW. It was not loot.

Sadly many museums can't afford to display all the items they have (environmental controls etc.), nor the room.

Glasgow seems a bit irrelevant, Lyness may be more appreciative. http://scapaflow.co.uk/sfvc.htm

Adrian

karenlg123

06-03-2010, 18:57

Sadly many museums can't afford to display all the items they have (environmental controls etc.), nor the room.

Glasgow seems a bit irrelevant, Lyness may be more appreciative. http://scapaflow.co.uk/sfvc.htm

Adrian

Tried contacting them this week but just got council offices answering machine. The joys of modern technology! Have been in touch with someone who knows a couple of boat skippers up there and am waiting to see if they can get info for me. As you say, sometimes, it aint easy to find somewhere that thinks what you have is relevant. Glasgow came into the equation as they have maritime artefacts and obviously more people pass through there, including lots of schools. Thanks for your input. It's appreciated.

GerryB

06-03-2010, 20:06

I think you will find the museum at Lyoness closes for the winter and reopens in the spring as a cost cutting exercise

Now should they want the brass plate from the Kronprinz Willhelm is a different matter as they have far better objects displayed there and lots stored already handed in from donations kindly handed in

I have had the pleasure of visiting the museum on many occasions also the museum at Stromness its well worth the effort

Gerry

MattS

07-03-2010, 15:49

No probs, being new to this site, I was a bit surprised. When we were in the diving game many many years ago it was more like a friendly club and I guess I was thinking it would be along those lines on here.On the whole, UK divers are still much the same bunch of kindred spirits in real life. Give em a keyboard and a run of bad weather though...;)

Good luck finding a home for your brass plate.

ChristianG

07-03-2010, 16:05

I don't think that there were really any special "rules" back then.
Indeed there weren't, and a good mate of mine, who will remain nameless, still has the masthead light of the "Royal Oak" on his mantelpiece, carefully encased in protective glass and which was snaffled well before all this non-looting happened. I am also absolutely certain that he has made appropriate arrangements for it to be displayed in a proper place, most likely in the UK not unadjacent to Scapa Flow but that is surmise on my part.

BogSnorkeller

07-03-2010, 19:43

Indeed there weren't, and a good mate of mine, who will remain nameless, still has the masthead light of the "Royal Oak" on his mantelpiece, carefully encased in protective glass and which was snaffled well before all this non-looting happened. I am also absolutely certain that he has made appropriate arrangements for it to be displayed in a proper place, most likely in the UK not unadjacent to Scapa Flow but that is surmise on my part.

That's not something to be proud of, whether he offered it the museum or not. Whereas none of the German wrecks at Scapa have bodies on board, the Royal Oak contains hundreds of bodies, and is a war grave. Even before it was designated a war grave, the British public reacted with outrage to the idea of divers disturbing it. Salvage and environmental clean up plans were abandoned in the 1950s for this reason.

barrygoss

07-03-2010, 21:50

Garf

07-03-2010, 22:25

OneDragons

08-03-2010, 16:15

Nigel, was it metal from the Scapa fleet that has been stored for special use due to it having no radio active contamination in its structure?

You are correct. Because this steel went underwater before the bombs of WW2 etc. it is free of any radioactivity unlike the rest of the worlds iron made since then.

As such it is useful when you need to take massively accurate electromagnetic readings. But our supply of such metal is now obviously very limited.

OneDragons

08-03-2010, 16:22

This brass plate was recovered from the Crown Prince Willhelm, part of the German Fleet scuttled at Scappa Flow. (4 and a half inches wide, 1 inch in height). [URL="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180476946813&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT"]

This plate was given to my father in the late 1960's by Arthur Nundy, who had the salvage rights for the Crown Prince Willhelm. My father, William Gourlay, helped with the blasting to salvage the armour plating from the CPW. Arthur Nundy gave this to him as a token of his thanks.

This is a one off item and an opportunity to own a little bit of history.

Given the obvious family links through your father to this piece of history it seems strange to me that you want shut of it.

It isn't going to make you a fortune and nor does it take a huge volume of space. Surely it means more to you than it would mean to someone else who wants something that simply looks pretty?

Nigel Hewitt

08-03-2010, 17:59

As such it is useful when you need to take massively accurate electromagnetic readings. But our supply of such metal is now obviously very limited.
Well no... The amount of unirradiated iron available is most of the stuff in the ground but it is so much cheaper to use old salvage as refining iron on an industrial scale involves using masses of this contaminated air we breathe.

As ever it's just about money. Perhaps what we need is a Bessemer rebreather :D

OneDragons

08-03-2010, 20:53

Thanks for the distinction, I wasn't sure about the stuff in the ground but contamination from the air during processing makes sense.

Gareth

10-03-2010, 07:51

Karenig123

Just to echo Matts comments, & welcome you to the forum, & a sorry if you felt the reaction was a bit 'agressive'.

What is a good sign is that the immediate modern response to items removed from wrecks is that of conservation. Should it be removed, if so shouldn't it go to a museum.

Whilst it has taken some considerable time, the free booty days of priate divers striping wrecks is now a thing of the past. The vast majority of amatuer divers are much happier to leave things where they are, or, become involved in archeological projects.

Karenig123, the bst place for your 'tinket' is probably Lyness. It has the distinct advantage of keeping the item local to the wreck from where it came. In addition, it will be presented in context, i.e. it is relevent to the local history & surrounded by related items.
Best of luck on locating a home for your little piece of history.

Gareth

ChristianG

10-03-2010, 11:35

I was going to let this ride but eventually changed my mind.

Right now, having declared that information, you need to come clean and assist in its return to it's rightfull owners.
Barry,

Please don't lecture me. I actually question who those "rightfull (sic) owners" are. Is it the Royal Oak or is it your Maritime Authority? I also have no right whatsoever to question my friend as to what he should do with the artefact. Actually, if he hadn't lifted it (and he was in the UK armed services for many years, including the time that it was lifted) would it even exist today? To answer my own question, almost certainly not.

Or your mate needs to arrange it's return to it's rightfull owners. NOW.
As above, and please don't SHOUT at me, there are more elegant ways to provide emphasis and if I can do it, so can anyone.

Jesus, thats like me saying, I know the man who has the statue of Simpson and his donkey is his shed (and yes I know Anzac Day. My Schooling was in Torrens, Canberra for many years)
I wasn't born here, but nevertheless I am proud to say that I am an Aussie. As for mummified bodies on my matelpiece, no thank you very much. :D

That's not cool Christian. Sorry, just MHO.
I know it, you know it, my friend probably knows it better than either of us, and that's why I'm sure and certain that he's made appropriate arrangements for its eventual disposal.

Regardless, it is not my place to tell him what to do with it.

Hamish

10-03-2010, 11:49

Christian.

Right now, having declared that information, you need to come clean and assist in its return to it's rightfull owners.

Or your mate needs to arrange it's return to it's rightfull owners. NOW.

Jesus, thats like me saying, I know the man who has the statue of Simpson and his donkey is his shed (and yes I know Anzac Day. My Schooling was in Torrens, Canberra for many years)

They will want it back. NOW.

Barry.

Barry,

Lets not get carried away by demanding Christian does something he has no rights to do. Remeber this may have taken place well before any laws were created to protect this wreck. As far as I am aware the Protection of Wrecks act was in 1973 and the Protection of Military Remains in 1986. Also please read what he has said amd I quote.

I am also absolutely certain that he has made appropriate arrangements for it to be displayed in a proper place, most likely in the UK not unadjacent to Scapa Flow but that is surmise on my part.

Now we could enquire if this is in fact to be done and perhaps Christian may well find out for us, but I would not demand that he did so.

regards

Hamish

ChristianG

10-03-2010, 12:21

Now we could enquire if this is in fact to be done and perhaps Christian may well find out for us, but I would not demand that he did so.
Thank you for your defence of me. :)

When I first saw this item at my friend's home (it doesn't leave there - ever) many years ago I seem to remember that he murmured something about it going back to Scotland to an appropriate museum, more or less at the same time that I thought that its current hidey hole was somewhat inappropriate.

Having heard that, and knowing the man, a person always as good as his word, I was quite happy to leave matters lie. Yes, it's an important artefact of Brit history which, in my view, will be appropriately returned whenever that may happen.

In the meantime it rests carefully preserved in its glass urn and, no, he doesn't allow anyone to even touch it, nor should he. Actually I've seen him clean it, he uses cotton gloves to do so, as he should.

Edit/: The item was lifted in the early sixties IIRC. Gosh, that's when I first stepped ashore in Oz and despite that the place seems to have thrived! :eek:

ChristianG

10-03-2010, 13:04

That's not something to be proud of, whether he offered it the museum or not.
Well, how the hell do you know that? Were you even born at the time that he lifted the artefact? Do you really know what the perceptions were in those days or have you simply read something that's been written - and accepted it as gospel?

My friend dived that wreck several times, mostly in company of his UK armed forces buddies, well before it was declared "sacred", now there's an interesting word in itself, and he eventually found the artefact.

Personally I have absolutely no compunctions about anything or anyone tampering with my body once I'm dead, after all, I'm just a lifeless blob of protein at that stage which, quite frankly, would best serve feeding something else that's alive and, yes, I'm getting closer to that with every day that passes.

It's only our, quite possibly religious, concept of the human body that makes us think that it's inviolate - actually - it isn't. It's just another chunk of matter that something else (worms anyone?) is likely to want to eat.

Edit/: I suppose I need to qualify, my friend has "made arrangements" for the artefact upon his death.

Sorry, sorry, sorry, rant over.

bluewater

10-03-2010, 14:09

Have actually tried to do the "decent thing" and spoken to a couple of museums re donating and have not yet heard back from anyone as yet. Have an appointment with curator at Glasgow museum and art gallery next Tuesday. Bit sad to see so many people assuming the worst ... it was given by the man who had the "salvage rights" to the CPW. It was not loot.
Unfortunately there seems to be too many people that seem to need to criticize and assume the worst of others, despite the fact that you’d made the circumstances clear. There were many wrecks raised and scrapped and that plate would have also disappeared to be made into something else had it not been given to your father. Under the circumstances the plate belongs to you do with as you wish (as you know).

barrygoss

10-03-2010, 14:23

Hamish,

Who is the owner of the wreck??

The protection of military remains act is from 1986 and the protection of wrecks act is indeed from 1973. But theft has been around a lot longer.

Unless of course it has been declared to the receiver.

But then if in 1950 the idea of salvage was dropped due to public outrage I dont suppose it was. As the item was "snaffled", "lifted", stolen in the early 60's.

Barry.

ChristianG

10-03-2010, 14:36

Unfortunately there seems to be too many people that seem to need to criticize and assume the worst of others, despite the fact that you’d made the circumstances clear. There were many wrecks raised and scrapped and that plate would have also disappeared to be made into something else had it not been given to your father. Under the circumstances the plate belongs to you do with as you wish (as you know).
Now that's not quite fair.

The very first three posts by this particular person were all about selling a particular artefact, and not the same one either, three separate items and it is therefore somewhat logical to assume that this person is after the cash. Whether they are, or not, is actually beside the point here.

We have, or may have, now established that this may not (necessarily) still be the case but the jury is still out to lunch given that no-one has, as yet, conclusively proved anything at all.

As for the item in question on this particular thread, it is quite simply a notice of something behind it, a bit of machinery. The first line reads "Overpressure Valve" but the second line is WWI jargon and I have no clue. Quite frankly I think that there would be many such all over ships like this one such that it's probably not historically significant other than to the vendor for the reasons already stated.

Ron MacRae

10-03-2010, 15:49

Unfortunately there seems to be too many people that seem to need to criticize and assume the worst of others, despite the fact that you’d made the circumstances clear.

Not true at the time the initial comments were made. All we saw was someone trying to flog 3 bits of old wreckage/kit

Ron.

BogSnorkeller

10-03-2010, 16:46

Christian,

the masthead light off the Royal Oak would be something the Navy, the Navy veterans associations and the public would be hugely interested in. You're on a public forum telling everyone that you know the person who has it and that he's made attempts to offer it to museums.

I don't believe that for one second. You know as well as I do that if any of the above groups got wind of your mate's mantelpiece trophy, it would cause a lot of fuss and they'd want to find out how he got it and, if possible, arrange for it to be put on display. Regardless of when your mate acquired it, you'd then be left with three choices:

1. Confess to having made the whole thing up - a diver's tale.
2. Tell the authorities who your mate is, so they could check it's provenance.
3. Say nothing and thereby look like you're protecting a war grave robber.

I'm not sufficiently bothered by this issue to raise it with any of the above groups, but you've raised it on a public forum and exposed yourself to that risk - why bother? I am also a little bemused by the contrast between your moral indignation that the OP might be trying to make money out of a legally-acquired shipwreck artefact, and your easy-going approach to whether war-graves should be considered 'sacred.'

Steve Walsh

10-03-2010, 21:29

sitting on the fence, the masthead light is still owned by the Admiralty.

ChristianG

11-03-2010, 09:19

the masthead light off the Royal Oak would be something the Navy, the Navy veterans associations and the public would be hugely interested in. You're on a public forum telling everyone that you know the person who has it and that he's made attempts to offer it to museums.'
Did I really say that? Without bothering to go back to check, I seriously doubt that I said that.

I don't believe that for one second. You know as well as I do that if any of the above groups got wind of your mate's mantelpiece trophy, it would cause a lot of fuss and they'd want to find out how he got it and, if possible, arrange for it to be put on display.'
Quite agree with your first sentence, nor did he say that. As for the latter part I'm pretty sure that I've mentioned this story on here before without it creating any drama at all, however that's as may be.

Regardless of when your mate acquired it, you'd then be left with three choices:

1. Confess to having made the whole thing up - a diver's tale.
2. Tell the authorities who your mate is, so they could check it's provenance.
3. Say nothing and thereby look like you're protecting a war grave robber.
1. I didn't.
2. I wouldn't [1].
3. I could well do that and if people take that inference, so be it. Would I care? Certainly not.

Please remember though that this is Oz, a sovereign state, that we're talking about and which no longer has to "tug the forelock" in the direction of the UK. [1] If some UK authority were to now ask me for details, if they were even allowed to given that I am a citizen of Oz, I would be much more inclined to, in turn, tell them to "shove it".

Mind, there is also another possibility, that my mate has been telling a pack of lies in the first instance but I consider that even less likely than that I have been doing the very same thing.

I am also a little bemused by the contrast between your moral indignation that the OP might be trying to make money out of a legally-acquired shipwreck artefact, and your easy-going approach to whether war-graves should be considered 'sacred.'
You're inferring certain things here that, perhaps, you shouldn't.

I'm, as you've probably heard me say before, a pretty ancient critter. I also have no relatives, as in none at all (there could be the odd cousin I suppose, probably some 16K times removed, but who cares) and I therefore don't have any emotional baggage. In deference to current emotive issues my will states that my body is to be cremated and I have asked, asked, very politely, that those ashes should be scattered over my favourite local wreck, the Galava.

After the dive, but of course.

I would have preferred that my whole body be dumped over the side but, you know, those emotive issues. It's passably strange, quite odd and illogical really, how it seems that we can eat other animals but they shouldn't, in turn, be able to eat us.

northern_diver

11-03-2010, 13:46

I'm, as you've probably heard me say before, a pretty ancient critter. I also have no relatives, as in none at all (there could be the odd cousin I suppose, probably some 16K times removed, but who cares) and I therefore don't have any emotional baggage. In deference to current emotive issues my will states that my body is to be cremated and I have asked, asked, very politely, that those ashes should be scattered over my favourite local wreck, the Galava.

After the dive, but of course.

I would have preferred that my whole body be dumped over the side but, you know, those emotive issues. It's passably strange, quite odd and illogical really, how it seems that we can eat other animals but they shouldn't, in turn, be able to eat us.

Christian, you've came out with some stuff of late thats really got my back up when i've read it...

As much as you have little or no regard for your body or others after death, others do, to which is there right. But if you were just to be 'dumped over the side' thats your right, but what about the fallout from you doing such, the body washing up and the police wasting resources trying to figure out what happened to your cadaver...bit naff, i dont want that loss of resources because of you.

In more referrence to the other post however, religion has some draw on why we want bodies back but what about closure to the family (you dont have any for whatever reason so maybe thats why you cant see) or the legal side-declared dead etc. There's more to it than you give credit for.

As for this salvage issue, the admiralty ownes it, if they chose to leave to rot down there that is their right. If they want to come get your mate and investigate him/you, thats also their right. The circumstances of the case and the law would determine what they could and cant do, but try and imagine some one razzelling something off your favourite wreck, or for that matter, anything you hold dear.

I'm confused as to you agreeing that your mate should clean the item and use cotton gloves 'as he should'..why? why should he? you have no care for the once living, breathing, dynamic mother/father/brother/sister/etc etc but you do for some bit of metal...i see that as the wrong way around (dispite the fact its a symbol of the event), you still just seem twisted in your view to me.

John

Hamish

11-03-2010, 14:02

ChristianG

11-03-2010, 14:25

As much as you have little or no regard for your body or others after death, others do, to which is there right.
Indeed. However I was only giving you my PoV, no one else's.

But if you were just to be 'dumped over the side' thats your right, but what about the fallout from you doing such, the body washing up and the police wasting resources trying to figure out what happened to your cadaver...bit naff, i dont want that loss of resources because of you.
Well, you could interpret it that way because I didn't really explain myself properly, silly me, I didn't see that there was a need. My idea was that my body provides food, or do you think that seabourne creatures do not die?

In more referrence to the other post however, religion has some draw on why we want bodies back but what about closure to the family (you dont have any for whatever reason so maybe thats why you cant see) or the legal side-declared dead etc. There's more to it than you give credit for.
I am an atheist, matter of fact I was at the ABC (our version of your Beeb) studios as an audience member listening to your very own Richard Dawkins on that subject just last Monday.

As for this salvage issue, the admiralty ownes it, if they chose to leave to rot down there that is their right. If they want to come get your mate and investigate him/you, thats also their right. The circumstances of the case and the law would determine what they could and cant do, but try and imagine some one razzelling something off your favourite wreck, or for that matter, anything you hold dear.
The last time someone did something like that it was the diver in question here. The wreck was the Kiama and he found the Maker's Plate. He's a bit good at that type of thing, I'm not.

I'm confused as to you agreeing that your mate should clean the item and use cotton gloves 'as he should'..why? why should he? you have no care for the once living, breathing, dynamic mother/father/brother/sister/etc etc but you do for some bit of metal...i see that as the wrong way around (dispite the fact its a symbol of the event), you still just seem twisted in your view to me.
Dead is dead, simple as that. An artefact remains alive (as it were) provided we take proper care of it. Why do you think that curators, as just one example, wear gloves when handling an artefact? Do you think that anyone even thinks about handling your Magna Carta without fine cotton gloves on?

You may think of me as callous, or uncaring, or whatever, that's your right and I don't argue with that. When, however, you question my standards of behaviour you are questioning me, and that is not your right. I've bared my soul here, metaphorically speaking, rather more than I would usually wish to, I have no intention of continuing this "discussion".

ChristianG

11-03-2010, 14:43

Can I have your camera kit, please. :D
Chuckle. :)

I'm afraid you'll have to join the queue. :o

northern_diver

12-03-2010, 22:18

Indeed. However I was only giving you my PoV, no one else's.

Well, you could interpret it that way because I didn't really explain myself properly, silly me, I didn't see that there was a need. My idea was that my body provides food, or do you think that seabourne creatures do not die?

I am an atheist, matter of fact I was at the ABC (our version of your Beeb) studios as an audience member listening to your very own Richard Dawkins on that subject just last Monday.

The last time someone did something like that it was the diver in question here. The wreck was the Kiama and he found the Maker's Plate. He's a bit good at that type of thing, I'm not.

Dead is dead, simple as that. An artefact remains alive (as it were) provided we take proper care of it. Why do you think that curators, as just one example, wear gloves when handling an artefact? Do you think that anyone even thinks about handling your Magna Carta without fine cotton gloves on?

You may think of me as callous, or uncaring, or whatever, that's your right and I don't argue with that. When, however, you question my standards of behaviour you are questioning me, and that is not your right. I've bared my soul here, metaphorically speaking, rather more than I would usually wish to, I have no intention of continuing this "discussion".

Yes, your of course entitled to your view, its good to share them.

I do however fully understand the 'circle of life' and understand that life ends, irrespective of the medium in lives in. Police tend not to care is a crab, fish etc washes up, but they generally take alittle more thought when its a body, dont you think?

Your religious stance isnt in question, nor is mine (as happens we agree, but hey ho)

I'm not overly into people stripping away a wreck/reef etc for goodies, just because they can...Doesnt really leave much in the long run.

I know fine well why curators et al wear cotton gloves or take other preventive measures to protect the items they are working with, but the point i foolishly thought you would get, is that why the significance placed on it. You say that the item your friend has should be maintained, but that you dont see why people want family/friends bodies back.

You place your views and opinions in the public light, your except that people are going to read and ponder on them. Just as its yourright to stick them there, its my right to stick a counter view on. I have the right to question you, always will and you cant stop me, you have the right not to answer however as well...lets face it, how many times have you said 'whatever, that idea's naff' (or words to that effect) on this forum?...equality and freedom of speech Christian.

John

Hamish

12-03-2010, 22:39

...equality and freedom of speech Christian.

John

And quite so John,

I have my opinion just as everyone else has theirs. Each of us are entitled to our opinion and we also have the right to express that opinion, but with the provision it does not turn into a personal attack on someone else. We should respect each others opinion as just that, an opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

I believe that these forums are one of the best sources of dive related information within the UK dive forums, I may be biased as a BSAC member but that is how I see it. So it does grieve me when I see fellow forum members getting slightly personal in their posts.

As you say equality and freedom of speech for all, but lets do it in a friendly manner.:D

Kind regards to you both.

Hamish

karenlg123

13-03-2010, 11:37

Karenig123

Just to echo Matts comments, & welcome you to the forum, & a sorry if you felt the reaction was a bit 'agressive'.
Best of luck on locating a home for your little piece of history.

Gareth

Thanks Gareth

Had no idea that this would develop into such a "free for all"

My last words (hopefully) on the subject:
As mentioned originally, we had tried to find a "proper home" for this plate and had not had anyone showing interest in it until I actually tried to sell it for my father (at over 80 years old and being one of the first Scuba Divers in Scotland I would have thought he could have disposed of his belongings as he wished, indeed I thought that was what the small ad section was for).

Fortunately, and reassuringly, some people on here offered positive help and adviceto us, instead of "demanding" we do what they thought we should do! Thanks to those who were encouraging and helpful, we have found a good and relevant home for the plate at Stromness Museum, and my father, who was always willing to donate this plate, is happy with the end result. I thank those of you on here who helped us to achieve this satisfying result.

OneDragons

13-03-2010, 11:39

Excellent news!

gordon mackie

13-03-2010, 12:14

From YD it seems that it got no bids and the owner is donating it to Stromness museum

Scuba Diva

13-03-2010, 13:07

From YD it seems that it got no bids and the owner is donating it to Stromness museum

She had already been trying to get in touch with museums prior to listing it but was finding it hard, but then did manage to.

Its nice that we'll all be able to see it when we go diving up there.

karenlg123

13-03-2010, 13:34

From YD it seems that it got no bids and the owner is donating it to Stromness museum

FYI:
Have had several private bids, but withdrew the item before end of sale on ebay as we finally managed to find someone who has been able to guarantee it going to an appropriate setting (Stromness Museum). It has therefore been donated there by my father.
In future you would do well to not to be so quick to judge other people if you haven't checked out the facts.

karenlg123

13-03-2010, 13:39

Nice to see that some people on here do in fact read the posts before commenting.

Hopefully I shall be able to take my Dad up to see it in situ this summer and have him reminice and share some more of his diving memories with me.

gordon mackie

13-03-2010, 13:49

Hi
I was not aware that I had judged you in any way..what was my judgement of you?
I just spotted a thread in YD and bunged it on here, I have no idea what you are referring to

If I had a judgement it would be that it was very nice of you to donate it to Stromness museum and I look forward to seeing it there

ChristianG

13-03-2010, 14:03

There are a number of posts on here (Gordon's not included) which could be called "flawed", for want of a better word.

Quite frankly Karen, although you did explain the back ground of this particular artefact, the advertising of two others in quick succession with all three being "for sale" didn't help matters so I'd suggest that there is fault on all sides.

I'm very pleased that Stromness has accepted this one, if only for your father's sake. It's best in a place like that, he can be proud of that, as he deserves to be.

Edit/: If you take dad up there, or indeed if he starts waxing eloquent, a discreetly placed recording device is a wonderful thing. I wish I'd done it with my parents, particularly my father. Gosh, some of the (what is today) history I would have been able to record.