View Full Version : Constructive thread: Making BSAC more accessible and welcoming to other agency divers
As a PADI AOW, my own experience of joining a BSAC club has been very positive and welcoming. However I recognise that there is always room for improvement and there are some branches that are behind the times.
So. Here's a thread for suggestions. Could I ask that we keep it to constructive, specific ideas please?
Thanks,
Janos
1) Putting a piece of paper in the cross-over packs that clearly states the BSAC position about other agency divers being welcome.
2) Putting a DVD in the cross-over packs that explains how UK charterboats, shotlines, DSMBs, work (perhaps mentioning that the skills can be shown to you by an instructor in your branch).
3) A 'UK diving' SDC that could be run in branch and covers the above info.
Hi Janos
Its not BSAC thats needs educated its the branches!!
Dave Whitlow
25-02-2010, 09:12
1) Putting a piece of paper in the cross-over packs that clearly states the BSAC position about other agency divers being welcome.
2) Putting a DVD in the cross-over packs that explains how UK charterboats, shotlines, DSMBs, work (perhaps mentioning that the skills can be shown to you by an instructor in your branch).
3) A 'UK diving' SDC that could be run in branch and covers the above info.
4) Creating a crossover programme and revised QRB page which defines which lectures/drills etc a diver need to carry out to gain their equivalent grade rather than start training from it. eg PADI DM --> DL
garethwoodruff
25-02-2010, 09:16
Is there not already a Dive 'UK' SDC?
http://www.bsac.com/core/core_picker/download.asp?id=13494
Its individual branches that are the issue I'm afraid.
DVD could be useful, but it would just make the cross over packs more expensive. Also, if your joining the branch to just dive with your existing qualification, then you would not get a cross over pack.
I think what your proposing won't really help. Compliance with BSAC's own standards at branch level is the issue. We all want a sports diver to be better than 9 dives in a quarry, even though you can get it that way !
gareth.
Owen Wichard
25-02-2010, 09:16
Hi Janos
Its not BSAC thats needs educated its the branches!!
James,
What your ideas to educate branches?
More support from HQ, for grade and training cross over divers need? New approach to other agency divers? I.E theory and practical, intro 88 tables etc
Betting advertising of BSAC welcomes other agency divers?
Owen
Owen
Sorry to say this but I think its just one of those things which can't happen.
James,
What your ideas to educate branches?
More support from HQ, for grade and training cross over divers need? New approach to other agency divers? I.E theory and practical, intro 88 tables etc
Betting advertising of BSAC welcomes other agency divers?
Owen
Nigel Hewitt
25-02-2010, 09:31
I'd like to rewrite the SALT documentation so it is much clearer that it is just "If you want to do a BSAC course and we say you need to be SD for it any of this list of other qualifications will do" in big letters so people stop assuming it is a crossover chart because some people still think that way.
But then I'd like to rewrite virtually everything so it says what it means not what it says.
Maybe when I retire...
Owen
Sorry to say this but I think its just one of those things which can't happen.
We'll never get the perfect solution, but it could be made better.
Ok. Thinking about this in a slightly structured way.
We could
- send round something to all branches as part of a mailshot
- Have a short session at the DOC (but suspect that we'd be preaching to the converted)
- Perhaps put a 10 minute slot in IFCs about teaching other agency divers (although the IFC syllabus is very full already).
Any / all of the above may be crap ideas, but all we need is one half-decent idea to make the thread worthwhile :)
Janos
Is there not already a Dive 'UK' SDC?
http://www.bsac.com/core/core_picker/download.asp?id=13494
Its individual branches that are the issue I'm afraid.
DVD could be useful, but it would just make the cross over packs more expensive. Also, if your joining the branch to just dive with your existing qualification, then you would not get a cross over pack.
I think what your proposing won't really help. Compliance with BSAC's own standards at branch level is the issue. We all want a sports diver to be better than 9 dives in a quarry, even though you can get it that way !
gareth.
I was thinking of a slightly differnet SDC - one aimed more at divers who had just joined a BSAC club.
You're right about new members who don't continue their training. At the moment we don't send them anything. Perhaps there is some merit in sending them a "welcome to the club" pack?
Janos
You're right about new members who don't continue their training. At the moment we don't send them anything. Perhaps there is some merit in sending them a "welcome to the club" pack?
Myself and my missus joined two years ago. I was a diver, she was a non-diver. We both got sent a DVD through the post about UK diving. This DVD was basically about how nice seals were, and how pretty UK diving was, but it was a nice thing to send out. Do they still do that?
Chris
Its not BSAC thats needs educated its the branches!!While that attitude remains within BSAC, I doubt the situation will improve. If BSAC is not prepared to value the whole of it's business, no one else will.
But in the spirit of piecemeal constructive ideas. A code of practice for branches to sign up to in return for something of value from BSAC.
a fw things which HQ could do withe the money they have saved
in branches/
1) stop the cross sniping at differnt agencys and accept off the bat they are a qualified diver. and explain why the crossover stuff isnt mandatory but it is prefered because of XYZ reasons and wont cost a penny.
2) ditto with check dives. explain its not a slight agaisnt them or agency but its a standard for all new divers so the DO becomes aware of there strengths and weeknesses
3) from my old club. stop assuming that OD/equvilent is a crap certification and all trips must be SD above. 20m isnt anything to snear at and dpeth is for a reason in a dive and that reason is to see something specific not to watch a guage or comp go round. accept shallow dives are an ok thing to do.
4) stop us n them approaches in brances to other branches. if a dive is not full give em a call to see if they want to pop a few on and vice versa. likewise to share training skills and sessions. we are a club after all.
5) be cheeky send PMs when local people on forums are seen and saying HI HO come meet us for a pint and see what we are about. this is where we meet when and a descripion of yourself so they have some way of knowing who is a diver and who isnt. an ice breaker,
from HQs end
1) a nationwide ad campaign. the BSAC dvd is great but it sent to people who have joined they knowa bit about what bsac and diving is already. kinda misses hte point of the advertising.
2) likewise the upper reaches actualy stoping the us n them aproach to other agencys. you dont like it on a personal level fine but if your in view of the world dont tar eveyone with it
3) the uper reaches celebrating UK diving alot more in the magazine and not tech stuff all the time. stuff ODs, and SDs etc can actualy do reasonably.
4) comming to visit branches on occasion and having a dive. to show what other branches manage to do to the wider audiance and also so we can say err i dont like XYZ call or is it possible to have ABC included or as an extra to membership. **
from a committie level
1) be nice to the LDS (my club is) and get them to have a poster up somewhere with the clubs meeting time and place and a phone no.
we are lucky that one LDS owner pops down to chat, another bloke pops in to collects bottles and test them and another is very firendly in general.
2) get some decent press time. get a spread in the local rag of pretty pics and some chattings about diving in the local area, and then have contact details avalible.
3) if someone talks to you about diving and shows an interest dont just say oh gtg the boats going unless it realy is going that second to catch the tide. think its pretty hard to ask unknown people what its all about. and you may get a new member out of 5 mins of human politness
4) if a person is itnerested invite them along on the boat for a dive for a minimal fee, i know my club does this and its a nice way for both lots to get an idea of whats avalible and the person involved. not going for the hard sell.
better to let them see a club which isnt for them and still thinkl BSAC is ok than hard sell it, they hate it and then BSAC by extension.
** kinda cross linking threads on this one
janos. i know people who would be like that and refuse any thing with overlords comming down as a what? we arnt doing anything wrong what do they want with us mentality. but it would be nice to have them in view of occasion. the club im in isnt the kind which needs help. but i was in a club which needed it and was far far to proud to ask (actualy the chairperson and older members were to proud and dominated proceedings). and as a result very little was done untill the NW regional coach came down and saw we wernt getting informed about regional stuff like training and then he talked to them and us, and things started to move a little more.
such contact for all members with the wider area would be good. such as me being a little interested in UW archeology being intorduced to a group who do it and getting a rapport going on with them and learning a little more about it.
. im not talking a weekly one where loads of people have to do it but just that they did it of occasion be it a social beer or a dive and just pop the heads in saying HQ isnt that far away via me.
So. Here's a thread for suggestions.
Website content. We need material on the public side of the paywall that is clear and consistent, and we need material that people *want* to come and read. Waiting for them to *need* to read it is too late.
Vic.
on a similar note and this is what i define as commercial aspect, the overall agency as oppsoed to clubs,
its professionalisme and pride in a job done.
when doing SDCs dont publish a date untill you know it will be ready. it looks bad when it doesnt apear on time. rational people will accept it but others wont.
get it ready then publish it with a bit of flair and an emailshot to all members. and saying how to get onto it.
whilst the BSAC site is well done it does look a little dated especialy compared with the padi one. i know the people will look at the both and go for shiny shiny revolving pictures shwing people diving with cool stuff in warm water over 4 kitless person jumping into a cold looking place on an overcast day.
I know this thread is supposed to be purely for things we could do, but there seem to be some misapprehensions here...
1) stop the cross sniping at differnt agencys and accept off the bat they are a qualified diver.
That is BSAC policy and has been for a very long time. BSAC cannot police every word that comes out of members' mouths, but any such "sniping" you have experienced is purely the personal opinion of the speaker; BSAC cannot stop them speaking (and it would be ridiculous to suggest it tries), but all such opinions are personal, and do not reflect BSAC.
and explain why the crossover stuff isnt mandatory but it is prefered because of XYZ reasons and wont cost a penny.
All that is in the training material - "crossover" is entirely voluntary. I use quotation marks because it's not really a crossover - SALT is purely about where you start on the training ladder if you have qualifications from another agency. It does not represent a requirement for diving within BSAC, it is a table of credit for previous achievement.
2) ditto with check dives. explain its not a slight agaisnt them or agency but its a standard for all new divers so the DO becomes aware of there strengths and weeknesses
That has been my experience of every checkout dive I have ever made.
3) from my old club
Hmmm. Is this actually a local problem you're trying to solve?
stop assuming that OD/equvilent is a crap certification and all trips must be SD above. 20m isnt anything to snear at
In one particular club I was in, some years back, the vast majority of the diving was all at OD level. The reason for this was simple - the person planning the dives was my missus, and she was an OD. An AD checked what she did, of course, and took the position of responsibility, but she did all the leg-work, and as a result, never found a problem with branch-approved diving in her range...
likewise the upper reaches actualy stoping the us n them aproach to other agencys. you dont like it on a personal level fine but if your in view of the world dont tar eveyone with it
In general, no such antagonism exists. BSAC as an entity has regular and positive contact with other training agencies. The recent furore is a rare - and hopefully short-lived - exception to that general situation.
if a person is itnerested invite them along on the boat for a dive for a minimal fee
No fee. If you charge a fee, you are no longer considered to be "mutually trading", and that has all sorts of ramifications.
Vic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_c
likewise the upper reaches actually stopping the us n them approach to other agency's. you don't like it on a personal level fine but if your in view of the world don't tar everyone with it
Quote: Originally Posted by Vic
In general, no such antagonism exists. BSAC as an entity has regular and positive contact with other training agencies. The recent furore is a rare - and hopefully short-lived - exception to that general situation.
I think that BSAC as an organisation (HQ, Committee and Branches) need to work on changing the views of its members, I know that it cannot control what is said by any one person, but surely they have the knowledge and power to try and change opinion?
Almost every BSAC (and PADI) diver I have met have a belief that the BSAC quals are of a higher standing 'you aint a proper diver coz you don't do deco...' that makes PADI trained divers feel inferior (and they may well be) but It has to stop as it is discouraging newbie PADI divers becoming members of BSAC.
In reality most BSAC clubs I have spoken to have many PADI trained divers running them, stop trying to compare PADI and BSAC - Diving is Diving
BSAC should take any diver with any qualification and simply assist in development (I know nearly all clubs do), without the comparison. PADI is a system that is well developed and well marketed, its simple. BSAC is over complicated and focuses too much on comparison. I doubt PADI are even bothered what BSAC are doing.
I took my PADI OW because I wanted to Dive, I'll join BSAC because I want to develop both myself and assist in developing others.
As a PADI Diver I agree I probably haven't be taught as much as an equivalent BSAC Diver, but don't tell newbies with OW and 10dives that they're not up to scratch, after all they have just forked out a wedge and feel pretty pleased with themselves - don't shoot them down and tell them they 'aint a proper diver', take them on and develop them.
BSAC should be marketed as a divers club (in which you can dive, learn, dive, socialise, dive and dive some more) PADI is marketed as a training agency (in which you learn and then go out and develop by yourself or as part of a BSAC club).
Stepping stones come in all shapes and sizes, some are more stable than others, but they all get you somewhere (hopefully).:confused:
Actually I am very glad that someone raised the "sniping" thing. It doesn't happen at just the lower levels. And I am not saying that all the other agencies are whiter than white and Angels either, but I have never ever seen any of them behave in public the way a number of dinner guests behaved at the BSAC 50th Anniversary Dinner in London. I was really delighted to attend this event, but ended up utterly mortified by the manners of my peers. It made me want to tear up my BSAC instructor cards because I was so ashamed, and proud that I was a PADI Professional.
The head of PADI in the UK (Mark Caney) was an honoured guest at the dinner and his job was to introduce the BSAC NDO. When Mark's name and position was announced he was booed and hissed at by the floor. Not just by one person, or in jest, but by many and they meant it. Bear in mind we are talking about experienced highly qualified instructors, area and regional coaches and other 'respected' divers. I, along with representatives from the scuba industry (manufacturers) were totally taken aback and disgusted by this infantile behaviour and closed attitude. It was highly insulting. Mark, always the total professional, took it all in his stride. Ironically, what most of the room didn't know was, that amongst the many diving qualifications from various agencies that Mark holds, he is also a BSAC National Instructor. As the head of PADI UK, he doesn't use it, but that doesn't take away what he has achieved.
I hate all this public bickering and sniping. When is everyone going to wake up and say, "hey you're a diver, I am also a diver" and become a more cohesive unit. If everyone came together, then the industry as a whole will be a hell of a lot stronger, than many fragments.
bythesea
25-02-2010, 17:47
Well said Roz, it doesn't help when members of the tech team are over heard in pubs slagging of certain cave diving organisations either, it makes the behaviour acceptable to the lower ranks if the 'leaders' are seen to do it.
I am sure I raise this before on a similar thread, maybe I imagined it? ;)
Tony Dwyer
25-02-2010, 19:42
The head of PADI in the UK (Mark Caney) was an honoured guest at the dinner and his job was to introduce the BSAC NDO. When Mark's name and position was announced he was booed and hissed at by the floor. Not just by one person, or in jest, but by many and they meant it. Bear in mind we are talking about experienced highly qualified instructors, area and regional coaches and other 'respected' divers. I, along with representatives from the scuba industry (manufacturers) were totally taken aback and disgusted by this infantile behaviour and closed attitude. It was highly insulting. Mark, always the total professional, took it all in his stride. Ironically, what most of the room didn't know was, that amongst the many diving qualifications from various agencies that Mark holds, he is also a BSAC National Instructor. As the head of PADI UK, he doesn't use it, but that doesn't take away what he has achieved.
I hate all this public bickering and sniping. When is everyone going to wake up and say, "hey you're a diver, I am also a diver" and become a more cohesive unit. If everyone came together, then the industry as a whole will be a hell of a lot stronger, than many fragments.
Such behaviour is despicable and inexcusable.
Mark was the Course Director on my PADI IDC. A very good bloke, who worked very hard to get us through. A b*gger of a 'student from hell' though.
Mike Halligan
25-02-2010, 20:00
Actually I am very glad that someone raised the "sniping" thing. It doesn't happen at just the lower levels. And I am not saying that all the other agencies are whiter than white and Angels either, but I have never ever seen any of them behave in public the way a number of dinner guests behaved at the BSAC 50th Anniversary Dinner in London. I was really delighted to attend this event, but ended up utterly mortified by the manners of my peers. It made me want to tear up my BSAC instructor cards because I was so ashamed, and proud that I was a PADI Professional.
Oh dear, can we not appreciate effort and achievement, wherever it is found?
The head of PADI in the UK (Mark Caney) was an honoured guest at the dinner and his job was to introduce the BSAC NDO. When Mark's name and position was announced he was booed and hissed at by the floor. Not just by one person, or in jest, but by many and they meant it. Bear in mind we are talking about experienced highly qualified instructors, area and regional coaches and other 'respected' divers. I, along with representatives from the scuba industry (manufacturers) were totally taken aback and disgusted by this infantile behaviour and closed attitude. It was highly insulting. Mark, always the total professional, took it all in his stride. Ironically, what most of the room didn't know was, that amongst the many diving qualifications from various agencies that Mark holds, he is also a BSAC National Instructor. As the head of PADI UK, he doesn't use it, but that doesn't take away what he has achieved.
Quite. While we cannot tell whether it was meant, the behaviour is bad enough in itself.
I hate all this public bickering and sniping. When is everyone going to wake up and say, "hey you're a diver, I am also a diver" and become a more cohesive unit. If everyone came together, then the industry as a whole will be a hell of a lot stronger, than many fragments.
Too true, and therein lies the answer to this thread. Where you find harmony, foster it; where you find discord try to resolve it, or carry on elsewhere. There truly are plenty of other divers in the sea, we do not need to fight one another.
Actually I am very glad that someone raised the "sniping" thing. It doesn't happen at just the lower levels. And I am not saying that all the other agencies are whiter than white and Angels either, but I have never ever seen any of them behave in public the way a number of dinner guests behaved at the BSAC 50th Anniversary Dinner in London. I was really delighted to attend this event, but ended up utterly mortified by the manners of my peers. It made me want to tear up my BSAC instructor cards because I was so ashamed, and proud that I was a PADI Professional.
The head of PADI in the UK (Mark Caney) was an honoured guest at the dinner and his job was to introduce the BSAC NDO. When Mark's name and position was announced he was booed and hissed at by the floor. Not just by one person, or in jest, but by many and they meant it. Bear in mind we are talking about experienced highly qualified instructors, area and regional coaches and other 'respected' divers. I, along with representatives from the scuba industry (manufacturers) were totally taken aback and disgusted by this infantile behaviour and closed attitude. It was highly insulting. Mark, always the total professional, took it all in his stride. Ironically, what most of the room didn't know was, that amongst the many diving qualifications from various agencies that Mark holds, he is also a BSAC National Instructor. As the head of PADI UK, he doesn't use it, but that doesn't take away what he has achieved.
I hate all this public bickering and sniping. When is everyone going to wake up and say, "hey you're a diver, I am also a diver" and become a more cohesive unit. If everyone came together, then the industry as a whole will be a hell of a lot stronger, than many fragments.
Geez, did that really happen? how shameful!
I know of not one agency who puts BSAC down for their training methods, content or level of diving, yeah the odd PADI instructor may say BSAC is a bit Cliquey or old school, but to stoop to the level of Booing a well respected agency boss? this reaks of jelousy.
How can BSAC members talk about wanting new members, most of whom will undoubtably come from other agencys, and then show themselves up like that?
Who would want to be part of that?
Luckily I have read this forum for the past 2 years and know that many of the members are decent people and many are just as pro-PADI as they are pro-BSAC.
I have decided today to join Torbay BSAC due to 2 of the members PMing me and they seam like good welcoming guys who are more than happy to have a PADI joining them. If it wasn't for that and I had read about this incident elswhere, I wouldn't come near!
I have no power but I feel that collectively BSAC Members (I will be one soon) must make a stand to stop these sort of things happening or BSAC will see the results in the future, and it wont be that bright!
If you cant beat them join them!
... but I have never ever seen any of them behave in public the way a number of dinner guests behaved at the BSAC 50th Anniversary Dinner in London. ...
I would like to think we have moved on after 6 years, harking back to things done/said in the past doesn't help to change the image.
Regards
Edward
Steve Walsh
25-02-2010, 20:18
I think that BSAC as an organisation (HQ, Committee and Branches) need to work on changing the views of its members, I know that it cannot control what is said by any one person, but surely they have the knowledge and power to try and change opinion?
Almost every BSAC (and PADI) diver I have met have a belief that the BSAC quals are of a higher standing 'you aint a proper diver coz you don't do deco...' that makes PADI trained divers feel inferior (and they may well be) but It has to stop as it is discouraging newbie PADI divers becoming members of BSAC.
In reality most BSAC clubs I have spoken to have many PADI trained divers running them, stop trying to compare PADI and BSAC - Diving is Diving
BSAC should take any diver with any qualification and simply assist in development (I know nearly all clubs do), without the comparison. PADI is a system that is well developed and well marketed, its simple. BSAC is over complicated and focuses too much on comparison. I doubt PADI are even bothered what BSAC are doing.
I took my PADI OW because I wanted to Dive, I'll join BSAC because I want to develop both myself and assist in developing others.
As a PADI Diver I agree I probably haven't be taught as much as an equivalent BSAC Diver, but don't tell newbies with OW and 10dives that they're not up to scratch, after all they have just forked out a wedge and feel pretty pleased with themselves - don't shoot them down and tell them they 'aint a proper diver', take them on and develop them.
BSAC should be marketed as a divers club (in which you can dive, learn, dive, socialise, dive and dive some more) PADI is marketed as a training agency (in which you learn and then go out and develop by yourself or as part of a BSAC club).
Stepping stones come in all shapes and sizes, some are more stable than others, but they all get you somewhere (hopefully).:confused:
thank you. the 1st club had a number of divers who derided my PADI qual. i did up to mAOW to get in the water and get some diving in in a acceptable time frame for me. I couldn't commit to weeks and weeks i did it in a "crash course" time frame.
I could have done my intro at a BSAC school but wasn't aware of this method .
Myself and my missus joined two years ago. I was a diver, she was a non-diver. We both got sent a DVD through the post about UK diving. This DVD was basically about how nice seals were, and how pretty UK diving was, but it was a nice thing to send out. Do they still do that
yes they still do.
my suggestions
1) HQ checking regional websites are up to date and taking the regional team to task over it if the info is well out of date.
2) providing up to date books as training materials on SDCs , and important ones at that like PRM - issuing a "safety and rescue for divers " book that was last published ( different from printed BTW) 12 years ago ,yes 1998 was the last revision, is appallling . I have spent a fair amount of time editing the incorrect bits out.
Adrian Kelland
25-02-2010, 20:23
I would like to think we have moved on after 6 years, harking back to things done/said in the past doesn't help to change the image
I'd like to think so too. It's a big shame it even happened and given the time scale, I'm sure some of those responsible are still causing us problems.
bythesea
25-02-2010, 20:25
I would like to think we have moved on after 6 years, harking back to things done/said in the past doesn't help to change the image.
Regards
Edward
That's kind of the point though Edward, this still goes on and denying it or claiming it is all in the past does nothing to change that fact...
People are pointing out the things that need to change and different people are saying the same thing, maybe it is time to listen, accept and alter.
Ben Panter
25-02-2010, 21:10
While that attitude remains within BSAC, I doubt the situation will improve. If BSAC is not prepared to value the whole of it's business, no one else will.
But in the spirit of piecemeal constructive ideas. A code of practice for branches to sign up to in return for something of value from BSAC.
Interesting - what would be the item of value? A CMS website? Something that would be cheap and easy wholesale but difficult for an individual branch?
Ben
Interesting - what would be the item of value? A CMS website?
No. CMS websites are easy and cheap for those who want them - we bring nothing to the party there.
If we're going to produce sites for branches that don't want to do their own, it ought to be a very simple, potted site. Basic info - when and where the club meets, who to contact about joining or for further info. And that needs to be driven from the membership database so that it stays up to date without the branch needing to touch it - a stale website can be worse than no site at all.
Vic.
So. Here's a thread for suggestions. Could I ask that we keep it to constructive, specific ideas please?
Actually I am very glad that someone raised the "sniping" thing. It doesn't happen at just the lower levels. And I am not saying that all the other agencies are whiter than white and Angels either, but I have never ever seen any of them behave in public the way a number of dinner guests behaved at the BSAC 50th Anniversary Dinner in London. I was really delighted to attend this event, but ended up utterly mortified by the manners of my peers. It made me want to tear up my BSAC instructor cards because I was so ashamed, and proud that I was a PADI Professional.
Well said Roz, it doesn't help when members of the tech team are over heard in pubs slagging of certain cave diving organisations either, it makes the behaviour acceptable to the lower ranks if the 'leaders' are seen to do it.
Dear All,
Janos did ask for constructive ideas, if you wish to raise failings then please try to give some constructive ideas on how these failing could be overcome.
Such as:
In order to prevent such occurrences we introduce a code of conduct concerning the voicing of aspersions in public on the operations, training, instructing or divers of any other agencies, including your own. This would be binding on ALL members, either they do adhere or they are dismembered, simples.
So if you have an agrievance or opinion over something said by someone who holds a responsible position within an agency then my suggestion is take it to the appropriate person through the proper channels. You may find that people will listen to what you have to say and if found to be correct deal with it in the appropriate manner.
Or am I wrong.
Regards
Hamish
I'll probably get boo'd for this one!
Shouldn't BSAC be forcing it's member clubs to be doing things? For the overall good of the brand?
Why should something have to be offered in return? Affiliation to BSAC should be reward enough. BSAC should be putting out website designs to branches, by all means let them have a bit of personalisation but push the brand and generate some strength.
Shouldn't BSAC disapline members? Audit clubs? Prevent outspoken members from rubbishing other agencys? I thought BSAC were the governing body? If what is being said is correct and were all singing from the same hymn sheet then this would be well supported, yes you can talk abot the costs of this, but surely if you get another 1000 members in because it's a happy well branded association then the costs will be recovered? Or stick yer heads in the sand and do nothing as BSAC Falls further behind and all is lost.
Steve Summers
25-02-2010, 23:19
In order to prevent such occurrences we introduce a code of conduct concerning the voicing of aspersions in public on the operations, training, instructing or divers of any other agencies, including your own. This would be binding on ALL members, either they do adhere or they are dismembered, simples.
So if you have an agrievance or opinion over something said by someone who holds a responsible position within an agency then my suggestion is take it to the appropriate person through the proper channels. You may find that people will listen to what you have to say and if found to be correct deal with it in the appropriate manner.
Or am I wrong.
Regards
Hamish
Hi Hamish,
I think you're wrong, to me that is censorship by the back door. Any agency that would demand a no criticism in public rule doesn't deserve to stay in business AFAIC.
Hamish, I think your right.
You beat me to it, I don't think it's censorship, it is govenorship (is that a word?) Obviously each case would be looked at and a judgement made by the commitee, it should be looked at as upholding BSACs code of conduct, you agree not to rubbish another agency when you become a member, if you do and with no foundation you are disaplined. As an electrician and member of the Niceic if I was to make comment on another companies 'poor workmanship' with no good grounds, just to make my company look better, I would be thrown out of the Niceic. Why should this be different?
Steve Summers
25-02-2010, 23:32
Hamish, I think your right.
You beat me to it, I don't think it's censorship, it is govenorship (is that a word?) Obviously each case would be looked at and a judgement made by the commitee, it should be looked at as upholding BSACs code of conduct, you agree not to rubbish another agency when you become a member, if you do and with no foundation you are disaplined. As an electrician and member of the Niceic if I was to make comment on another companies 'poor workmanship' with no good grounds, just to make my company look better, I would be thrown out of the Niceic. Why should this be different?
It would be different because you could be thrown out for making comments about your own company as I read it :)
It would be different because you could be thrown out for making comments about your own company as I read it :)
Not really the point, ok the NICEIC governs the pair of us but I find it hard to find an example where the organisation to which you are an affiliate is trying to stop you rubbishing it's competitor but you refuse to do so. What Im getting at is that as the governors they need to protect that organisation, so as a result should disapline those who do not respect their code of condut because it's to the detriment of the organisation as a whole.:confused:
northern_diver
25-02-2010, 23:46
The more of these posts i read, the less and less i want to continue training with BSAC AND PADI...if i could i'll happily just set up a club that just dived, I feel good about been a BSAC diver, but i feel like my self and my qualification acheivements have been tarnished by the actions of others.
I got to say though Paul, your inital list of 'stuff to do', most of it I/my mates/my clubs do anyway....i never knew they were so progressive...which begs the question of 'just how many lazy ased, slacker, waste of bigoted space 'divers' are actually out there?:mad:
' People make me sick.
The dino's on both sides will die out and progressively get smaller as more and more 'proper' minded instructors teach the new generations..but it does my head in all this messing about, when we should be planning dives together!!!....i do actually want to go diving...if anyone is free sunday?
John
Steve Summers
25-02-2010, 23:52
Not really the point, ok the NICEIC governs the pair of us but I find it hard to find an example where the organisation to which you are an affiliate is trying to stop you rubbishing it's competitor but you refuse to do so. What Im getting at is that as the governors they need to protect that organisation, so as a result should disapline those who do not respect their code of condut because it's to the detriment of the organisation as a whole.:confused:
we are getting side tracked. I would never rubbish another dive agency. I have qualifications from BSAC PADI PSAI IANTD and TDI so am not loyal to any paricular one over the others. What Hamish was suggesting [I feel] was that we shouldn't voice our opinions over council decisions for example the hog loop debacle in public.
I think that is wrong, now I have explained myself do you think that is something you agree or disagree with?
...i do actually want to go diving...if anyone is free sunday?
John
Think there's still space on our charter out of Plymouth next Saturday and Sunday if you can down our neck of the woods.
Hi Hamish,
I think you're wrong, to me that is censorship by the back door. Any agency that would demand a no criticism in public rule doesn't deserve to stay in business AFAIC.
Steve,
It is not censorship.
If I was still working and I cast aspersions in public about the company I worked for or any other company in relation to my line of work, I would have been disciplined no matter whether they were true or not. This is because the company had a code of conduct which specifically forbade its employees from behaving in this manner. I would have also been disciplined by OFCOM ;)
The company had a process for dealing with any complaints we had which worked exceedingly well. If there should ever be a time when the process broke down, then and only then would I consider it to be acceptable to go public.
I believe it serves no purpose whatsoever to publicise your grievances in public without first discussing them in private with the people or company involved and allowing them to respond.
Regards
Hamish
Agree with that one, sorry was caught up in the whole 'making BSAC more accessable and welcoming to other agency trained divers' thing (what a mouthful).
Steve Summers
26-02-2010, 00:03
Agree with that one, sorry was caught up in the whole 'making BSAC more accessable and welcoming to other agency trained divers' thing (what a mouthful).
No worries at all mate.
northern_diver
26-02-2010, 01:24
Think there's still space on our charter out of Plymouth next Saturday and Sunday if you can down our neck of the woods.
oh, be up for that....but march is full of jitsu for me :( going nuts, cheers gasgow:) thats the spirit isnt it:)
john
.. it serves no purpose whatsoever to publicise your grievances in public..
No grievance Hamish. Just observations.
The comments on SDC launch are spot on. It's better to have a finished product and then give it the big reveal, than keep on putting back the launch date.
Stop ramming "Governing Body" down everyone's throats. It just gets peoples backs up. For instace the SAA don't bob up and down all the time saying "we're the UK CMAS representative".
An easier to navigate website. I am still struggling to find stuff that I know is on there.
Having an ethical statement would be good. PADI's is "Not wrongfully disparage the PADI Organisation, PADI Members or any other dive industry professionals".
On the whole BSAC does a good job whilst HQ and the volunteers do an amazing one. They are under resourced and overworked, and so things can slip.
I think the problem is with divers who have just been purely BSAC trained and had no or little exposure to other agency training. They need to look over the fence and see that whilst others do things differently, they also have equally good standards. People tend to disparage things they don't understand or feel threatened by. A bit of humbleness goes a v. long way and wins a lot of friends.
Nigel Hewitt
26-02-2010, 07:35
I have to contradict Mr Glasgow's hopes.
HQ is not the master of all it surveys but the servant. This is our strength and our problem. Branches are amazingly diverse. Some have a huge web presence, others have never considered the idea. The facilities differ vastly too. For example we have boats, compressor and kit but no premises other than the compressor shed and we meet in any convenient pub. Some live and breath training, others just don't do any. Some are heavily technical and, perhaps, dedicated to one 'style' while others are either only into simplistic diving or are made up of a diverse spread of styles. You just can't impose edicts from on high on this sort of situation.
So how do we make 'BSAC diving' more accessible to the diving public at large? I'm not really sure. We need to be findable, that is the first problem. We need to make it easy for people to come and try us out. However that is not to say we throw our doors wide open to the general public and run our trips as if we were a commercial operation as I don't see that working. As with try dives personal intro try-divers tend to stay and learn and become part of us. Outsiders via BSAC or group/club visits are never seen again.
So what do we do? We are growing and although we train quite a few new divers every year over half our intake comes from ready-made divers. I came in that way. A dinosaur branch that rejects 'not trained here' on principle cuts itself off from that immediately and, for us, that would tip the balance and we'd be shrinking as people retire from diving, move away or just get pregnant and distracted for years.
Our core business is branch members going diving. Everything else is just a facilitator to that target. If we loose the focus on that we're finished. Our offer to the rest of the world is "Come diving with us".
Steve Walsh
26-02-2010, 07:48
Hi Hamish,
I think you're wrong, to me that is censorship by the back door. Any agency that would demand a no criticism in public rule doesn't deserve to stay in business AFAIC.
can we have a thanks button on this forum cos that post deserves one.
Ron MacRae
26-02-2010, 08:33
Our offer to the rest of the world is "Come diving with us".
Spot on. Sounds like a good mission statement.
Ron.
It is not censorship.You are right. It is suppression and I will have nothing to do with it. A nasty, nasty business IMVHO. The obsession with controlling other peoples behaviour, which appears to be endemic in many diving enthusiasts, is the one thing I like least about diving. Of course those that seek to do it are usually convinced that anyone that does not agree with their opinion must be at fault.
If I was still working and I cast aspersions in public about the company I worked for or any other company in relation to my line of work, I would have been disciplined no matter whether they were true or not.We are not at work. BSAC membership is a leisure service. One of the more obvious changes in lifestyle over the last 30 years being, the increasing pressure those still at work find their Free time under. Notice my capitalisation of Free. Seeking to restrict personal freedom really is not the way to encourage BSAC's membership. I can not actually think of a more effective way to put people off, which I suggest is already apparent.
Allowing people to speak freely is one of the more fundamental ways they are made to feel welcome. It is usually what distinguishes our friends from acquaintances and enemies.
ND. tbh my old club did have a great many issues resuling in me thinking about leaving BSAC as it just wasnt working for a great many reasons.
the club hemoraged members each year as they just were not getting what they paid for BUT the committe didnt care as it was a uni club, get the mebers in payed up and they got the cash from the uni to cover the rest.
not even remotly a good way to run.
my new one has restoired a great ammount of faith in the BSAC club system. but to then ignore what occured to my knolage and experiance when a period of open ness and honesty occurs is wrong.
as to the sniping stuff
requesting that perople dont slate other agencys out of hand is totaly acceptable.
for me to say
the padi centre in the dominican republic at sura bay intentional took me far beyond my diving limits when i was a very inexperiance OD is a fair comment and honest. i will add to that i would not dive with them again
and yes the above did happen.
for me then to branch out and say as a result that all padi diving centers are crap, that the training it gives is substandard and all padi divers are idiots who dont know how to dive is wrong. and doent help either agency look good. * this is a hypothetical statment one i dont agree with*
Tony Dwyer
26-02-2010, 11:13
Dear All,
Janos did ask for constructive ideas, if you wish to raise failings then please try to give some constructive ideas on how these failing could be overcome.
Such as:
In order to prevent such occurrences we introduce a code of conduct concerning the voicing of aspersions in public on the operations, training, instructing or divers of any other agencies, including your own. This would be binding on ALL members, either they do adhere or they are dismembered, simples.
Or am I wrong.
Regards
Hamish
Very wrong indeed. Who would be the judge & jury.
What you are suggesting is effectively a gagging order. Such mechanisms are anathema to democratic society and clubs. Last time I looked, I was living in one and a member of another.
Some gagging orders attempt to restrict our basic human rights. Freedom of speech is one such.
Some businesses attempt to apply gagging orders and there has been a fair amount of discussion in the press in recent times. Most of such discussion does not show the appliers of gag orders in good light.
Rather than try to stop people saying bad things about us, surely it is better to try to ensure that they have no cause to say bad things. We should strive to create an environment where criticism is accepted and acted upon if needed, but more importantly we should strive to remove causes of criticism, before any criticism arises. Utopian I would suggest, but a worthy aim nonetheless.
Openness is the key! Suppression is for spark plugs.
So if you have an agrievance or opinion over something said by someone who holds a responsible position within an agency then my suggestion is take it to the appropriate person through the proper channels. You may find that people will listen to what you have to say and if found to be correct deal with it in the appropriate manner.
Now that I do agree with.
I would agree that people who openly abuse others and the truth should be censured and possibly held to account for their actions. However, in this country one is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty (of most things :) )
We seem to have developed a society where controlling others is seen as desirable by many. I want no part of such behaviour.
I have met too many control freaks in my time and most have been unpleasant people. My usual reaction is to walk away. When that’s not possible I tell them to b*gger off. :)
I have to contradict Mr Glasgow's hopes.
HQ is not the master of all it surveys but the servant. This is our strength and our problem. Branches are amazingly diverse. Some have a huge web presence, others have never considered the idea. The facilities differ vastly too. For example we have boats, compressor and kit but no premises other than the compressor shed and we meet in any convenient pub. Some live and breath training, others just don't do any. Some are heavily technical and, perhaps, dedicated to one 'style' while others are either only into simplistic diving or are made up of a diverse spread of styles. You just can't impose edicts from on high on this sort of situation.
So how do we make 'BSAC diving' more accessible to the diving public at large? I'm not really sure. We need to be findable, that is the first problem. We need to make it easy for people to come and try us out. However that is not to say we throw our doors wide open to the general public and run our trips as if we were a commercial operation as I don't see that working. As with try dives personal intro try-divers tend to stay and learn and become part of us. Outsiders via BSAC or group/club visits are never seen again.
So what do we do? We are growing and although we train quite a few new divers every year over half our intake comes from ready-made divers. I came in that way. A dinosaur branch that rejects 'not trained here' on principle cuts itself off from that immediately and, for us, that would tip the balance and we'd be shrinking as people retire from diving, move away or just get pregnant and distracted for years.
Our core business is branch members going diving. Everything else is just a facilitator to that target. If we loose the focus on that we're finished. Our offer to the rest of the world is "Come diving with us".
Hi Nigel,
Its Gasgow on here although i do Hail from Glasgow in a previous life.
As I see it - no real contradiction, becoming 'findable'? thats what I'm trying to 'help' with, I think Branding is a BIG part of this, a BSAC uniformity to show that they are a strong organisation, rather than a fragmented buch of individuals with different agendas.
'Opening the doors' again stopping any predudice is the aim. as far as HQ goes I know this is complicated and a bit too political but should it not be stearing its members in a direction?
Bottom line we definately agree on, Lets go Diving, 'Come diving with us'!
Think I may be gtting too deeply involved in something other than the point I was origionally discussing!
I thought we were simply talking about the need to stop 'rubbishing other agencys' in a hope that this would allow those who trained with those other agencys to feel welcomed into BSAC.
My most recent posts are a direct result of Roz's comments regarding the Booing of a high level PADI proffessional simply because he was not a practising member of BSAC.
I am in no way supporting any kind of 'Gagging order' i fully believe in well delivered and solidly founded debate about any relevant subject, but think that out hand, snide comments about others with no real motive to assist in improvement of what is believed to be short comings, is immoral and makes BSAC as a whole look bigoted, something I hope none of us want, and certainly not the way forward when looking at the title of this thread.
In order to prevent such occurrences we introduce a code of conduct concerning the voicing of aspersions in public on the operations, training, instructing or divers of any other agencies, including your own.
No, absolutely not.
There appears to be a smallish problem with a few people that simply do not know how to behave. Roz's story is shocking, quite frankly, but attempting to introduce Stalinist control over what members may say is a much worse situation.
This would be binding on ALL members, either they do adhere or they are dismembered, simples.
Tis is yet another idea from the mindset that believes divers need BSAC. We don't. If BSAC were to expel members because they said something embarassaing, we would have very few members left. That's the end of BSAC, in very short order...
So if you have an agrievance or opinion over something said by someone who holds a responsible position within an agency then my suggestion is take it to the appropriate person through the proper channels.
That assumes that the "proper channels" will effect the necessary changes.
You may find that people will listen to what you have to say and if found to be correct deal with it in the appropriate manner.
You may also find that they will not. That has certainly been my experience in the past - BSAC were actively requiring *dangerous* dive conduct, but those people in a position to bring us into line with everyone else on the planet simply would not address the problem; they thought they knew best, and would brook no argument.
BSAC did eventually change their deadly requirements - but it took years of campaigning, and a large drop in membership and reputation.
Or am I wrong.
Yes, I'm afraid you are.
Vic.
Our core business is branch members going diving. Everything else is just a facilitator to that target. If we loose the focus on that we're finished. Our offer to the rest of the world is "Come diving with us".
Hence the "Diving for divers" strap line.
Edward
either they do adhere or they are dismembered, simples.
Christ, I thought GUE course requirements were harsh.
Christ, I thought GUE course requirements were harsh.
Yer in the BSAC Criticism Control regime now, boy. Arms and legs are a privilege, not a right.
Vic.
Tony Dwyer
26-02-2010, 13:29
Yer in the BSAC Criticism Control regime now, boy. Arms and legs are a privilege, not a right.
Vic.
Cough, choke, splutter!!!
Did you have to do that. I very nearly wet myself. :)
Perhaps I should take my axe to branch meetings....(i know groan away)
Nigel Hewitt
26-02-2010, 13:30
Hence the "Diving for divers" strap line.
Oh the old us and them line...
I was disappointed with that one but I guess we're stuck with it now.
Doesn't anybody know the psychological difference between an exclusive statement and an inclusive one?
Oh the old us and them line...
I was disappointed with that one but I guess we're stuck with it now.
Doesn't anybody know the psychological difference between an exclusive statement and an inclusive one?
'DIVING FOR ANYONE AND EVERYONE'?
Im also not in favour of the dismembering of members :eek: LOL!
can we have a thanks button on this forum cos that post deserves one.
That is one of the purposes of the reputation button
Adrian Kelland
26-02-2010, 18:05
Yer in the BSAC Criticism Control regime now, boy. Arms and legs are a privilege, not a right.
Vic.
Torso only required for the stabbing in the back of. ;)
Yes, I'm afraid you are.
Vic.
Hi Vic,
Perhaps I should have said ‘Or am I wrong AGAIN’ :eek:
Ok perhaps I did not express it in quite the way I meant it. What I am driving at is we should have a code of conduct where others are concerned and yes I believe there should be a penalty if we continually break this code. I know that in my old branch that if someone was to break the branch rules without due cause, they could be barred for a specific time from taking part in branch activities or as a final course of action expelled from the branch.
I also believe that this forum has a code of conduct and if a member consistently breaks that code they can be barred or expelled, this is no different to what I was trying to explain.
The one thing I was not suggesting was to suppress any view of any person that needs to be brought into the public domain for the good of others. What I was suggesting was we firstly explore those avenues which are available to us to redress the situation before going public.
If someone believes that going public in the first instance is the correct action then I’m sorry I have to disagree.
But as I have always said and believe everyone has the right to their opinion and the right to express it.
Regards
Hamish
Hi Vic
Hello.
Ok perhaps I did not express it in quite the way I meant it. What I am driving at is we should have a code of conduct where others are concerned and yes I believe there should be a penalty if we continually break this code. I know that in my old branch that if someone was to break the branch rules without due cause, they could be barred for a specific time from taking part in branch activities or as a final course of action expelled from the branch.
I also believe that this forum has a code of conduct and if a member consistently breaks that code they can be barred or expelled, this is no different to what I was trying to explain.
The problem is that it is a small step between regulating *how* someone says something (which is what the AUP of this forum is supposed to control) and regulating *what* they say (which the AUP largely leaves alone).
I have seen examples on this forum of people trying to use that regulation to silence arguments they do not want to hear. To the best of my knowledge, such attempts have always been unsuccessful - but that is down to the attitude of the Moderators and the openness of the discussion in the first place. In a different environment, where equality and freedom of expression are not so highly prized, there is a strong probability of that line being crossed.
The one thing I was not suggesting was to suppress any view of any person that needs to be brought into the public domain for the good of others. What I was suggesting was we firstly explore those avenues which are available to us to redress the situation before going public.
That's a good approach. I don't think we should enshrine any sort of penalty-bearing rules to enshrine it, but it's certainly a reasonable expectation that people should try the "quiet word in shell" approach before they hit the big red button.
Sadly, there are several instances on record where such an approach has proven entirely ineffective; edicts have been passed down from unelected groups within the heirarchy, and when these have been categorically shown to be dangerous, said group refuses to retract the edicts, preferring instead to waste time with "explanations" and claims that we readers "haven't understood". Under such conditions, there is no alternative but to go nuclear; the softly-softly approach can only work when both sides are prepared to discuss problems, and that dialogue has been very much absent from previous situations.
So yes - quiet, behind-the-scenes discussion would obviously be preferrable, but I hope you can see why individuals can often feel obliged to go public more quickly than some might hope; "once bitten, twice shy", as they say...
If someone believes that going public in the first instance is the correct action then I’m sorry I have to disagree.
Well, I don't necessarily. In this instance, for example, there was a very real hazard to anyone diving with a hogrig - many of whom would have no idea that they were doing anything contrary to anyone's wishes. Going public was exactly the right thing to do. It is a shame that we couldn't have used the initial engagement to thrash out exactly what we (as an organisation) wanted to do - but that's the problem with not having both sides committed to resolve problems.
But as I have always said and believe everyone has the right to their opinion and the right to express it.
Indeed. And whilst this dispute could have been handled better by everyone involved, at all stages, it remains the right of all participants to act as they did. It is unfortunate that some could not see past those rights and work towards something mutually acceptable - but them's the breaks...
Vic.
Steve Walsh
26-02-2010, 21:15
That is one of the purposes of the reputation button
Nah cos Summers has a reputation anyway :D
Steve Walsh
26-02-2010, 21:22
HQ answering emails correctly and assisting non bSAC divers rather than either
ignoring them because the person is the wrong person
not replying because they can't be bothered.
teling you the answer is on the website but not telling you where
this is based on initial communications with BSAC . thankfully i had a decent contact outside of HQ who pointed me in the right direction on the web.
to solve this- education at HQ. the phrase " I am sorry this is the wrong department but i will send it to the right department " is a very powerful reataining phrase.
bythesea
26-02-2010, 22:10
It has to be noted the website is a nightmare to navigate, is it finished yet?
I have no complaints about phoning HQ I have always been treated politely and efficiently....but then generally I know who I want to talk to...
Interesting - what would be the item of value?I have not thought too hard about that. Most of the complaints about BSAC seem to stem from the divide between The BSAC and the local branches affiliated to BSAC. A voluntary code of conduct is one way you might attempt to join up the organisation, without having to get heavy handed about it. Ultimately BSAC would get the ability to set (some of) the TOS within those branches that sign up. What is given in exchange needs to be commensurate with the independence the branch is giving up.
A CMS website?I think we would need to find something more substantial than shiny trinkets. See Vic's comments.
Something that would be cheap and easy wholesale but difficult for an individual branch?A branch that signs up to a BSAC code of conduct is giving BSAC preferential treatment, they are likely to want preferential treatment in return.
If you want take this any further Ben, may I suggest moving to the members forum.
I think we would need to find something more substantial than shiny trinkets. See Vic's comments.
A branch that signs up to a BSAC code of conduct is giving BSAC preferential treatment, they are likely to want preferential treatment in return.
Matt, Ben,
Being a caravaner, now, now no booing please. :p
I went along to the Caravan & Boat show this week at the NEC. Now one of the company’s stalls that grabbed my attention was a company offering a shared interest in a RIB. The cost and don't quote me here as I can't remember exactly, was around £6500 for a quarter share with a management fee of £200 per month (not sure if this was split 4 ways). This ownership was for 3 years so I would not consider the scheme.
But, my suggestion is that perhaps as an incentive to branches especially those clubs who are not so well off and I can think of a few inland branches who struggle to get members due to their location and lack of funds for their own RIB, could be given access to a RIB which was owned and maintained by BSAC. These could be kept on the coast such as the one described at the stall (they had them at around 8 venues on the south coast) for use by branches. The branches of course would contribute to the upkeep by a payment each time they used the RIB. This I feel would be a terrific incentive for people to not only to belong to BSAC but to increase their skills by undertaking boat courses.
I remember some years ago my old branch had a RIB and it was kept down at Queen Anne’s Battery (we were located north of Oxford). This was to make it easier for those members who did not have the facility to tow it. This worked out quite well and did not cost us the earth. All anyone did was arrange a weekend trip, phone up QAB and they would have the RIB in the water ready to go on the Saturday.
So not sure what the costing would be, but if we started out with maybe 2 to 3 situated in prime RIB diving locations it could maybe be a winner.
You also have to consider that if BSAC themselves approached the grant people (lottery, sport England etc) they may well get the RIB paid for as they would be designed to be available for all both young and old.
regards
Hamish
ChristianG
27-02-2010, 15:49
So not sure what the costing would be, but if we started out with maybe 2 to 3 situated in prime RIB diving locations it could maybe be a winner.
You also have to consider that if BSAC themselves approached the grant people (lottery, sport England etc) they may well get the RIB paid for as they would be designed to be available for all both young and old.
A good idea, possibly flawed. For many years I was part of the "crew" of a private Dive Boat, 23ft tri-hull with twin 90hp Honda four strokes tacked on the tail end. It's downfall was that it was fibreglass but, because it was privately owned we were all pretty careful of how we handled our undeniably heavy gear because otherwise we wouldn't be invited aboard again.
Conversely the Dive Boat I use nowadays is owned by a Dive Club and this thing is built like the proverbial brick shlthouse (in Oz parlance) in aluminium, because people will not, not, take care of something that does not belong to them, even members of a club with their own boat. Yes, many will in that circumstance but there are some that won't, there always are.
This could well be exacerbated in the scenario that you are describing where simply no-one (other than the BSAC) owns the boat. This means that financial consideration must be put in place to allay such a situation.
How expensive will that make it?
Hickdive
27-02-2010, 15:51
The head of PADI in the UK (Mark Caney) was an honoured guest at the dinner and his job was to introduce the BSAC NDO. When Mark's name and position was announced he was booed and hissed at by the floor.
Maybe they'd all heard him sing 'Hotel California' before. I'd boo and hiss just for that.
Seriously though, I was unaware that this happened. Although it was a few years ago I'm disgusted. A completely unacceptable way to welcome any guest. Those responsible should be ashamed :mad:
then thats a **** poor club attitude in general to lcub kit. dont get me wrong there are those in all clubs who are like that but they need to be told that they break it they fix it.
but the idea of reigional boats which can be used by any club whioch needs it is a little hard to manage.
a few points
1) who supplies the o2/ radio/ and consumables (oil) and life jackets? club? willl they use it if they have to fork out for bits
2) who is responsible for day to day maintance?
3) who is insured to drive it?
4) how is the diviying up of it done? one week a month? as requested? who polices it? ie can a club book it every neep over hte summer and sod the rest of us? on the 1st of january?
who picks up/delivers i tto the club?
i have hgeard sotries about the BSAC liveaboard which exist years back which was a white elephant which general clubs never got to see or use as it was used for shiny shiny look at how wonderfull we are sessions by HQ for free (according to older people i have met)
bythesea
27-02-2010, 18:01
I just read this post on another site and it made me think of this thread, situations like this are what put people off BSAC, I have spoken with the poster and he says I can copy it here, he said the boat was a commercial charter and there happened to be a couple of spaces left so he and his buddy paid and went.
They were nothing to do with the club so why the attitude from the DO, this is what needs fixing, public image is everything....
I had a bit of a run in with a DO a couple of years ago. I think it was about my third uk dive, the James fennel off Portland. Myself and a buddy I found on here booked a space on tango, direct with the skipper. As we got to the site me and my buddy agreed we'd do 40 mins or sooner if I got cold (it was august but I was in wetsuit) or 80 bar then start ascent, 20 metres max (skipper told us it was 16-18 so we added a couple on).
So we had our plan. Next thing this fat bloke waddles over with a clipboard telling us it's a bsac boat so we must obey bsac rules. That was the first time I'd heard of bsac, so the chances of me knowing the rules were pretty slim. He wanted to know why we were planing for 20 metres when max depth is 15/16, told me I won't have enough air in a single 12 to do 40 minutes and all other sorts of crap.
So after the dive he is working out the surface interval required before second dive. He took maximum depth from the group... One of his divers hit 18 metres, and the naximum dive time, one if his divers went over 45 mins iirc (their plan was 40 mins surface to surface 16 metres max).
Sooooooo after he spent some time scratching his head looking at tables, he announced we needed to wait something like three hours before the next dive, which was the same depth. I've never seen bsac tables, but that seemed a long surface interval.
Me and my buddy went through my padi table and worked out we had enough time to have some lunch and swap tanks then go do another 40 minute dive. My favourite bit was when I offered podgy my padi tables, with a great big grin on my face.
I'll dig my log book out and see if anyone on here is a member of that club, be interesting to know how that club is, I did see mr podge at vobster recently but it didn't look like he was with a club.
Nigel Hewitt
27-02-2010, 20:18
They were nothing to do with the club so why the attitude from the DO, this is what needs fixing, public image is everything....
No... Don't change it. It's wonderful.
I was diving on a hardboat out of Eastbourne having taken one of the 'extra spaces' and ran into a guy like that.
OK I was pre-warned that he was doing a 'dive organising' drill, looking back it must have been DL or AD but I didn't know that stuff then. Any how I was quite happy to give him my gas in and stuff (3L of 20/30 at 230bar and 3L of O2 at 200ish) but once we were on-site and the skipper had got the shot in I called 'Diver Ready' and when he tooted the horn I went.
Apparently the skipper got a lecture about solo diving and all sorts but I knew him quite well and he didn't know them so he placated them. I wish I knew who they were. It would be lovely to look them up now. I think we'd all laugh at it.
so telling people who are not in your group how to dive, when to dive etc based on the limits within that group and generaly be antagonistic is a good thing?
I would like it if we could keep this thread to specific actions we could to take to make the organisation even better :)
Thanks,
Janos
a few points
1) who supplies the o2/ radio/ and consumables (oil) and life jackets? club? will they use it if they have to fork out for bits
As with any hire boat the life jackets are provided, one for each space available as are any other safe at sea items, also it would be fitted with all electronics required, the O2 I would suspect would be the responsibility of the hirer as they should have this available by right.
2) who is responsible for day to day maintance?
The hirer again would be responsible, this is what the maintenance charge is for.
3) who is insured to drive it?
All members of BSAC who hold the appropriate Diver Coxswain qualification
4) how is the diviying up of it done? one week a month? as requested? who polices it? ie can a club book it every neep over hte summer and sod the rest of us? on the 1st of january?
It could be done by branches submitting request's to BSAC centre who would then allocate ensuring that all clubs got a fair share of the allocations. You would submit your request for allocations at the beggining of the year in preparation for the season.
who picks up/delivers i tto the club?
No one as it is already on site at the chosen location, this is one of the advantages of such a system. You just get your self down to the location with your gear.
regards
Hamish
just another idea. sites which use the google ads scrolling stuff. why doesnt BSAC get involved in that
bythesea
27-02-2010, 22:37
I would like it if we could keep this thread to specific actions we could to take to make the organisation even better :)
Thanks,
Janos
Explain to people where their authority ends so they don't annoy people on dive boats?
i think it was aimed at me and the route it could have been taken totaly offtopic. . ultimatly i dont mind as i think BSAC memebrs talking honeslty and on the topic to improve the overall club is a good thing and so a gentle nudge to keep it on topic is a reasonable thing.
same as asking bsac members not to slate PADI for no reason or as this sub topic is to not act draconian to people who are not part of BSAC or the group in question. #
mm port it always makes me so very reasonable
one thing which i have just seen on YD is about "crossover" levels
the fact is the idea of cross over is only for continuing training through BSAC not how it refers to BSAC diving levels. ie its not SD is the same as RD or whatever. they are already qualified and can dive to that qualification within BSAC the club. .
northern_diver
28-02-2010, 02:26
Hamish, like the Idea, bit of thought/work, could be handy, might need varable hand in dates for the allocation of the boat/due to availability. Bottom line is also, if a club doesnt want to use it or just doesnt, then thats there look out. Run with that idea though mate.
Paul C-I'm debating im my head to drag out the stories of the PADI guys giving BSAC folks a hard time because they were using 'needless Pony's' or doing 'dangerous diving as it involved deco'...not constructive though is it;)
Maybe a rule should be made were your not allowed to give away your training to anyone other than the skipper/DM lol or how about, perple keep there 'know-it-all-up-there-own-a*s-selves-to themselves...coulds cool to me.
A committee position called (or words to the effect of) 'Diving relations officer' who's task it is to liaise with the other local clubs for the purpose of inter-branch diving trips/boat space filling up, cross training/filling courses and other such activies such as cleaning public water ways of trollies etc or fund raising etc
Lets face it, if club members cant be grown up or sencible enough to do it themselves, then lets help. The 'beauty' of it is its there, so the 'good' clubs it will help a little, the 'ok' clubs it will likely help push and the 'poor' clubs will always be poor, but atleast we tried....scale based on outgoing/forward think etc rather than reasourses etc
John
ND when i was in sharm as a newly qualified SD i was left to myself. as i was a bsac diver. as in 2 weeks before in capers newly qualified.
i was one of the LEAST experianced divers on the boat. but because i was BSAC i was deemed to be no worries. as it happened i was no worries but thats becaus ei used my trianing to say, full buddy check, etc etc instead of hop in n follow the guide.
the padi divers didnt want to dive with me cause the thoight i would show them up or something like that. so i dived with the other non buddy case, a 74 year old woman (who was frankly the best buddy i had that week) who was padi trainined
also i know it works both ways. but frankly who is the better person or group. them which go yeha whatever ot them which are bitching moaning and looking like a bunch of muppets. .
im not anti the idea of a shared resorce by any means. a 6m rib at my becn n call would be rather usefull i can find the divers for it. but i can find the divers for it each neep week, which is where the allocation comes in.
shalt we split this of into a separate thread to allow discussion of it as an additional thing to toss to HQ?
Bare with me please Roz,
It made me want to tear up my BSAC instructor cards because I was so ashamed, and proud that I was a PADI Professional.
Mark, always the total professional,
If everyone came together, then the industry as a whole will be a hell of a lot stronger, than many fragments.I will not try to defend the poor behaviour you experienced at the 50th, but I will say that for every tale of BSAC behaving badly, I know of a similar tale where only the logos on the shirts are different. I will suggest that such anti-social behaviour has little to do with the badge and every thing to do with the person that is wearing it. If you wish to encourage harmony amongst divers, as you say you do, your criticism should be aimed at the perpetrators. What you have done here is create a negative association between the poor behaviour of a tiny minority and everyone that finds themselves in the same dive club. I might have overlooked it, but I know what you do for a living and assume you are aware of the power of such image associations.
Whenever The BSAC is scrutinised as an organisation it is found to discourages prejudice and xenophobia at every opportunity, (my current disappointment with the hog wrapping edict aside.) Similarly, divers trained by PADI that subsequently join BSAC virtually always report that their experience with BSAC was nothing like as bad as the perception they had of it. Why is that?
"Not wrongfully disparage the PADI Organisation, PADI Members or any other dive industry professionals".
Seems that PADI are fine with disparaging amateurs then ;)
I may be a little sensitive about it, as my amateur duties include hanging around here for too much, but it seems to me the 'us' and 'them' debates are, more often than not, initiated by people who are so called diving 'Professionals'
Stop ramming "Governing Body" down everyone's throats. It just gets peoples backs up.Due to your occupation, I would again expect you to know how important it is for organisations in a crowded market place to differentiate themselves. I highlighted the word Professional in the quotes as that is one way PADI differentiates. I can assure you that seeing BSAC being continually prodded with the amateur status stick, get's my back up. Not least because the average East End market trader seems to have a better grasp of business ethics than many so called diving professional's. With respect, you yourself have an undeniable conflict of interest and I would suggest the professional thing to do would be to disclose it voluntarily - an addition to your sig perhaps.
I am sure you will have noticed that BSAC has been in decline for a while now. It has to differentiate itself somehow. The NGB status is one of the few ways BSAC clearly and positively does differentiate itself. I struggle to see how it would get up anyones back, unless they happen to be another diving organisation. However, I agree with you that NGB status is not exactly the most important attribute when it comes to marketing BSAC and creating a positive perception. So I am very interested to know what you might suggest as an alternative.
Personally I think we should make more of the amateur status. Turn the amateur stick around. Amateur is the new Professional according to Charlie Leadbeater's think tank. http://www.demos.co.uk/publications/proameconomy
ChristianG
28-02-2010, 09:46
May I point out that it's not just BSACers who can act like this.
I like Pacific live aboards, not exactly BSAC territory. On these I usually wear a skinsuit, my ali tank is attached to a plastic backpack, as is the pony. No there is no BCD/Wing and no weight belt ( I don't need either, I'm not using thermal protection) and, more often than not (mostly unless it's a wreck) I'll be wearing full foot long fins. Here's a picture of me (http://forum.divernet.com/album.php?albumid=2&pictureid=43), actually a larger version of my avatar, set up like that
It's almost inevitable that when I'm first setting up my gear some fellow passenger (never the crew) and usually 'a DM or better' will come along to advise me that "I can't dive like that". My response depends on their tone of voice and it then gets worse when it becomes clear that my diving companion will be my camera.
So please don't think that that kind of attitude is limited to BSAC divers, it well and truly isn't.
bythesea
28-02-2010, 09:48
Just a quick question....
How much CPD or equivalent are BSAC instructors required to undertake?
Is it a requirement of maintaining status?
bythesea
28-02-2010, 09:50
So please don't think that that kind of attitude is limited to BSAC divers, it well and truly isn't.
I am aware of that but it is one area where BSAC can improve its image as it the point of the thread.
Adrian Kelland
28-02-2010, 10:01
Just a quick question....
How much CPD or equivalent are BSAC instructors required to undertake?
None
Is it a requirement of maintaining status?
No
bythesea
28-02-2010, 10:16
So there is the difference between pro and amateur, I am a member of two professional bodies, used to be three and for all of them I must keep knowledge current with up to date CPD.
I feel one of the things BSAC could do to improve is to insist instructors undertake a similar exercise to maintain their status.
So there is the difference between pro and amateur, I am a member of two professional bodies, used to be three and for all of them I must keep knowledge current with up to date CPD.
I feel one of the things BSAC could do to improve is to insist instructors undertake a similar exercise to maintain their status.
Some other agencies for comparison
With PADI you ned to keep paid up. I dont think there is any other requirements
With GUE you have to teach X courses per year plus do 25 dives per year at the level ABOVE you are teaching - so a fundies instructor must do 25 Tech1 dives.
Steve Summers
28-02-2010, 10:33
There are some good ideas here, but I doubt that any of them would change the actions of any of the people who are disparaging of other agencies. Some people are just wired that way and no amount of legislation or initiatives will change that type unfortunately.
Tony Dwyer
28-02-2010, 10:53
There are some good ideas here, but I doubt that any of them would change the actions of any of the people who are disparaging of other agencies. Some people are just wired that way and no amount of legislation or initiatives will change that type unfortunately.
Absolutely right. :) There are self important, arrogant & obnoxious gits everywhere. If I had a quid for every time I've felt like becoming a Darwinian agent, I'd be reasonably well off. :)
However, being at least partially civilised has kept me polite. Mostly :)
Adrian Kelland
28-02-2010, 11:08
So there is the difference between pro and amateur, I am a member of two professional bodies, used to be three and for all of them I must keep knowledge current with up to date CPD.
I feel one of the things BSAC could do to improve is to insist instructors undertake a similar exercise to maintain their status.
Insist? The hog loop issue is bad enough. Insisting such a instructor issue would likely lead to wholesale withdrawal of services. I think the BSAC council etc. know this would not be a smart way of retaining members.
Not all professional bodies insist on any CPD as a way of enforcing 'up to dateness'. We have plenty of law and code of practice to follow to maintain professional indemnities. That tends to concentrate the mind to make sure you are current - it's in your own interests rather than the professional body's.
… It made me want to tear up my BSAC instructor cards because I was so ashamed, and proud that I was a PADI Professional ...
I dislike the way professional is used as a divider; and with your status in the commercial diving sector I suspect you are looking at some sort of competitive edge.
I see both commercial (PADI et all) and non-commercial (SS-AC et al) as professional in the way they conduct their business. The use of amateur conjures up images (for me anyway) of haphazard activities.
Regards
Edward
bythesea
28-02-2010, 11:53
Ok, let us put this professional thing to bed.
Professionals
1. Have membership of a governing body
2. Keep knowledge current and up to date
3. Carry indemnity and/or PL insurance
These are the considerations of bodies such as RICS, LS, BMA etc.
Professional can also be used to describe someone who earns a living from something people usually do as a hobby.
Many people claim to be professional who are not, such as 'professional' salesman.
People need to get over this, PADI instructors are regularly sent industry updates and are encouraged to keep their knowledge current. they earn a living from something most people do as a hobby, they are members of a governing body, I can't remember on the insurance front, it has been a while no doubt PL is required.
So PADI Divemasters and above have the professional status, this should not be seen as a slight on amateur instructors and those that take it as such, generally will be doing so because of their own insecurities, those that know they are good instructors wont worry about it in the slightest.
So can we leave that particular pile of [words removed] alone now, it serves no purpose.
bythesea
28-02-2010, 12:00
Insist? The hog loop issue is bad enough.
A prime example of why knowledge should be kept up to date, I have heard stuff come out of the mouths of instructors that is over a decade out of date yet is still being taught.
A professional governing body has a duty to ensure its membership maintain current levels of knowledge, do not confuse these with governing bodies for non professional arenas.
ChristianG
28-02-2010, 12:11
I am aware of that but it is one area where BSAC can improve its image as it the point of the thread.
Sigh.
You may be, but is everyone?
So there is the difference between pro and amateur, I am a member of two professional bodies, used to be three and for all of them I must keep knowledge current with up to date CPD.
I feel one of the things BSAC could do to improve is to insist instructors undertake a similar exercise to maintain their status.
I believe BSAC instructors are expected to keep up to date with syllabus changes, changes to safe diving practices etc. There is no formal requirement to undertake a certain number of hours of "CPD" each year. I know there was talk of reissuing the instructor manual FOC on CD each year. I think this would help.
However, there are instructors from all agencies who are out-of-date, and don't keep current.
Anyway, could we keep this thread on topic please.
Thanks,
Janos
bythesea
28-02-2010, 13:49
Anyway, could we keep this thread on topic please.
Thanks,
Janos
I have pointed out two or three areas where I feel BSAC could improve during this thread, by improving a situation you attract new members and retain old ones.
Everytime I make mention of such areas you type the above.
Sorry if my suggestions are not to your liking but it is how I, a BSAC member, other agency trained and around or in the dive industry for the past 16 years see things.
I have pointed out two or three areas where I feel BSAC could improve during this thread, by improving a situation you attract new members and retain old ones.
Everytime I make mention of such areas you type the above.
Sorry if my suggestions are not to your liking but it is how I, a BSAC member, other agency trained and around or in the dive industry for the past 16 years see things.
Apologies. I haven't explained myself clearly enough. I know that you enjoy pointing our areas that could be improved, however, I'm looking for specific actions we, the BSAC, can take to make things better.
By way of analogy: You keep telling me that you feel scared when you're a passenger in my car. This may be true, but it would be more helpful if you were to tell me that the reason you feel scared is because I'm driving on the right and you'd prefer it if I drove on the left.
Janos
Hickdive
28-02-2010, 14:52
A 'Professional' is someone who requires a vocational qualification at degree level or above to do their job.
It has been corrupted over the years to include anyone who needs a qualification to do the job, whether or not that qualification is issued by a university or college. Indeed, certain industries have been issuing their own qualifications for some years and encouraging their members to call themselves 'professionals' as a result; Estate Agents, Financial Advisers and PADI Instructors are examples of this.
In the PADI sense it is also used in marketing to subtly infer that other instructors might be inferior because they are 'amateurs'. Nothing wrong with that; PADI are not a charity and they have profits to make in a competitive market but sometimes 'graduates' of the PADI system can be inclined to take their 'professional' status rather too seriously just as it seems that some BSAC Instructors seem to take their NI status as carte blanche to ignore 'lesser' mortals' opinions.
Tony Dwyer
28-02-2010, 15:13
Ok, let us put this professional thing to bed.
Professionals
1. Have membership of a governing body
2. Keep knowledge current and up to date
3. Carry indemnity and/or PL insurance
These are the considerations of bodies such as RICS, LS, BMA etc.
Professional can also be used to describe someone who earns a living from something people usually do as a hobby.
Many people claim to be professional who are not, such as 'professional' salesman.
People need to get over this, PADI instructors are regularly sent industry updates and are encouraged to keep their knowledge current. they earn a living from something most people do as a hobby, they are members of a governing body, I can't remember on the insurance front, it has been a while no doubt PL is required.
So PADI Divemasters and above have the professional status, this should not be seen as a slight on amateur instructors and those that take it as such, generally will be doing so because of their own insecurities, those that know they are good instructors wont worry about it in the slightest.
So can we leave that particular pile of [removed] alone now, it serves no purpose.
I'm sorry, but I'm beginning to find your tone somewhat tiresome.
As for the definition of what a 'professional' is (and it's been done to death here before), please see the free dictionary quote below;
pro·fes·sion·al (pr-fsh-nl)
adj.
1.
a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
b. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
n.
1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/professional?view=uk
professional
• adjective 1 relating to or belonging to a profession. 2 engaged in an activity as a paid occupation rather than as an amateur. 3 worthy of or appropriate to a professional person; competent.
• noun 1 a professional person. 2 a person having impressive competence in a particular activity.
If I take the above into account I can claim to be a professional in a number of fields, of which Diving is one.
I am a skilled and expert diver (I've passed exams that prove it), even though I no longer get paid to teach. Ergo, I'm a 'professional'.
Oh and by the way, to confirm your supposition, PADI Instructors are required (by PADI) to have personal liability insurance in the UK.
Anyone teaching for personal gain that does not, is a fool.
bythesea
28-02-2010, 15:23
Ok Janos, I will play your game, as you can't see what I am getting at, and to be honest if you can't work out driving on the wrong side of the road may scare people it is best you don't drive;)
Integrate with the diving community as a whole.
This could be true of all agencies but there is no reason for BSAC not to lead the way.
This starts in the classroom so instructors need to promote inter agency love
Bsac to realise its place in the NWO, it is a UK {mainly} dive club, it is good at all things UK diving so more promotion of this, more events, staged at more agreeable times of the year than divefest last year which was too early to be better assured of the weather, I feel this was done to get local charters on board during their quiet period, why do you think this period is quiet?
Promote promote promote, along with attitude adjustment, job done.
Stop relying on past achievements and plan for future ones.
I feel you are trying to be too specific with what you are looking for, it is a large picture that need repainting, not just touching up in the corners and round the edges.
Ok Janos, I will play your game, as you can't see what I am getting at, and to be honest if you can't work out driving on the wrong side of the road may scare people it is best you don't drive;)
Missus Janos says much the same thing :)
Integrate with the diving community as a whole.
This could be true of all agencies but there is no reason for BSAC not to lead the way.
This starts in the classroom so instructors need to promote inter agency love
Bsac to realise its place in the NWO, it is a UK {mainly} dive club, it is good at all things UK diving so more promotion of this, more events, staged at more agreeable times of the year than divefest last year which was too early to be better assured of the weather, I feel this was done to get local charters on board during their quiet period, why do you think this period is quiet?
Promote promote promote, along with attitude adjustment, job done.
Stop relying on past achievements and plan for future ones.
I feel you are trying to be too specific with what you are looking for, it is a large picture that need repainting, not just touching up in the corners and round the edges.
You are right. I am trying to get people to be specific. The reason is that it is very easy to state vague asperations (I'm told politicians do it all the time) but much harder to come up with ideas that might achieve those aspirations. So every potential Miss World wants peace in the Middle East, but coming up with a concrete suggestion is much harder to do.
I like your Dive Fest idea. When would be a better time to run it? September?
I also agree that instructors are important for changing attitudes with in branches. I think there's could be scope for promoting more inter-agency friendliness at IFCs etc. But I'm not sure what the best means of communicating with established instructors is.
Promote promote promote. I guess HQ are trying to do that. You've mentioned Dive Fest and there's also the Go-Dive and Try-dive campaigns. Plus the Blue Peter thing last year. But I'm not an expert in comms or marketing so I'm at a loss as to what else they could do. Any more ideas?
Janos
bythesea
28-02-2010, 15:58
September would afford a better chance of diving for divefest to be sure, I don't see there is a massive need for local charters. Enough clubs have boats they could bring down, have an agreement in place that 40% or so of boat spaces are left vacant until the actual event, make sure people are aware it is open to all divers and fill the 40% with 'other agency' divers, make sure they have fun...
Sure Blue peter etc was good but I am not sure if the age demographic is right for promoting diving, I stopped watching it when I was about 12.
Maybe aiming at the early - mid 20s? Spare time, spare cash, looking for something more fulfilling than getting drunk every weekend?
How about a couple of big 'come dive with BSAC' weekends, not try dives but for experienced divers to go out with their local club, heavily promoted from HQ with a lot of support offered to individual branches.
I think once local divers get the chance to meet the local club and realised they are not all fat bearded know all idiots and that they can dive for much less than they currently pay then people will sign up.
Basically promote the diving, not the learning, there are lots of disenfranchised people who did basic PADI courses who just don't get the opportunity to use their skills due to lack of funds or lack of people to go diving with. I feel it is this ready trained market we need to call out to.
Roz well put, if BSAC members done this then this well out of order and I would of been ashamed to been a BSAC member/instructor, at the end of the day we are all divers.
Actually I am very glad that someone raised the "sniping" thing. It doesn't happen at just the lower levels. And I am not saying that all the other agencies are whiter than white and Angels either, but I have never ever seen any of them behave in public the way a number of dinner guests behaved at the BSAC 50th Anniversary Dinner in London. I was really delighted to attend this event, but ended up utterly mortified by the manners of my peers. It made me want to tear up my BSAC instructor cards because I was so ashamed, and proud that I was a PADI Professional.
The head of PADI in the UK (Mark Caney) was an honoured guest at the dinner and his job was to introduce the BSAC NDO. When Mark's name and position was announced he was booed and hissed at by the floor. Not just by one person, or in jest, but by many and they meant it. Bear in mind we are talking about experienced highly qualified instructors, area and regional coaches and other 'respected' divers. I, along with representatives from the scuba industry (manufacturers) were totally taken aback and disgusted by this infantile behaviour and closed attitude. It was highly insulting. Mark, always the total professional, took it all in his stride. Ironically, what most of the room didn't know was, that amongst the many diving qualifications from various agencies that Mark holds, he is also a BSAC National Instructor. As the head of PADI UK, he doesn't use it, but that doesn't take away what he has achieved.
I hate all this public bickering and sniping. When is everyone going to wake up and say, "hey you're a diver, I am also a diver" and become a more cohesive unit. If everyone came together, then the industry as a whole will be a hell of a lot stronger, than many fragments.
bythesea
28-02-2010, 16:02
EDIT...note to self.....here to be constructive...not to bicker....
Mike Halligan
28-02-2010, 16:33
So can we leave that particular pile of [removed] alone now, it serves no purpose.
Given that you have just defined every BSAC OWI and above known to me, yes, please do!
bythesea
28-02-2010, 16:42
Given that you have just defined every BSAC OWI and above known to me, yes, please do!
Glad to hear it but don't shout it to loudly or the HSE might ask to see a medical ;)
Mike Halligan
28-02-2010, 16:44
Glad to hear it but don't shout it to loudly or the HSE might ask to see a medical ;)
1. Have membership of a governing body
2. Keep knowledge current and up to date
3. Carry indemnity and/or PL insurance
ALL boxes ticked, pigs fuelled and ready to fly :eek:
bythesea
28-02-2010, 16:46
OK..great..well done...now..how to make BSAC an attractive proposition to disenfranchised divers, I assure you bickering and point scoring is not one of those ways.
Point of interest though, indemnity or PL and do BSAC provide this?
Ok Janos, I will play your game, as you can't see what I am getting at,I feel the need to say thankyou. That would seem to be your first post that does not rely on creating an overtly negative image of BSAC. Well done ;)
bythesea
28-02-2010, 17:23
EDIT>>>biting my tongue
Nick of Bristol
28-02-2010, 19:05
Our club website is currently getting an average of one approach per week. This is leading to new members.
I think that a website template and a little technical help would pay for itself.
The template could include a statement on the home page to the effect that BSAC has time for divers of all shapes, sizes, training agencies and orientations. Diving is about exploration and breaking down barriers -a bit of diversity has always done us some good.
Safe diving
Nick
Nick of Bristol
28-02-2010, 19:29
Hi
In my club a good 30% of newer members are PADI cross-overs. So in many cases, PADI is feeding members into BSAC.
Some people from other training agencies, might never have spoken with a BSAC club, but have pre-conceived ideas of BSAC. These are important people to reach.
I think that an advert in Diver magazine (i.e. the non-BSAC affiliated magazine) saying that BSAC welcome’s divers from other agencies should be considered.
We need to tell divers that we will make them feel welcomed and respected.
Appy diving buddies..........
bythesea
28-02-2010, 19:34
I think that an advert in Diver magazine (i.e. the non-BSAC affiliated magazine) saying that BSAC welcome’s divers from other agencies should be considered.
We need to tell divers that we will make them feel welcomed and respected.
I would agree with that being money well spent...
I think that an advert in Diver magazine (i.e. the non-BSAC affiliated magazine) saying that BSAC welcome’s divers from other agencies should be considered.
I like this idea. I wonder if Sport Diver would take an advert too?
Janos
Steve Walsh
28-02-2010, 20:08
A prime example of why knowledge should be kept up to date, I have heard stuff come out of the mouths of instructors that is over a decade out of date yet is still being taught.
A professional governing body has a duty to ensure its membership maintain current levels of knowledge, do not confuse these with governing bodies for non professional arenas.
maybe because the book given to them on a recent SDC is 10 years out of date?
bythesea
28-02-2010, 20:22
I like this idea. I wonder if Sport Diver would take an advert too?
Janos
I wonder if there is anything in the deal with Dive that would prevent this?
Someone mentioned the DiveFest earlier in this thread. I think the concept is excellent and inspired and well done SITA in coming up with this - UK Diving plc presents British Diving! I do however think that September would be much better time to run this. In May the water has barely started to warm up. In September the sea is pretty much the warmest it's going to get, and fingers crossed, we're more likely to get better weather.
Plus, it's the end of the summer holidays. UK Diving plc is more likely to attract the returning holiday makers who've gone snorkelling or done a trydive in resort in the previous couple of months. The wonderous images of underwater life are still vividly dancing in their brains, so if you then dangle the idea of a DiveFest in front of them and say "hey we've got mouthwatering diving here too", maybe just maybe they will say "let's find out what diving is like the UK".
Onto other matters;
I am sure you will have noticed that BSAC has been in decline for a while now. It has to differentiate itself somehow. The NGB status is one of the few ways BSAC clearly and positively does differentiate itself........So I am very interested to know what you might suggest as an alternative.
I really don't think so - the status is irrelevant to pretty much most divers because it means nothing to them. What does mean something to most divers, and I've said this time and again, is the Clubs - BSAC's strength and it's USP. Get a good BSAC club and they are very powerful in lots of ways. They nuture, encourage and mentor new talent, become part of the community supporting non diving projects (raising money for local charities), and have an incredible social life. The whole experience can truly transform someone's life in a very positive way. If you join a decent club, you learn so much about yourself. What you can achieve. Develop new skills and I am not talking only diving here. Think how BSAC training has helped people in their real jobs put together presenations and then stand up and talk to their colleagues. This is empowering confidence building stuff. Members start to think about things differently, ie driving down to the South Coast is no longer a major expedition, but a five hour car journey instead. PADI doesn't do clubs. For me this how BSAC differentiates itself. Diving has the ability to create friendships as strong and binding as hoops of steel. True friendships for life. This is BSAC's power, a key attribute and it's very positive and great from a marketing perspective.
Another comment was made amateur -v- professionals and we've had long debates about this. It's funny, you think you have written something that's easily understood and v. clear and then someone else interprets it in a completely different manner. I actually was not making any point about amateur -v- professionals, just saying on that day at that time I was proud to be a PADI Instructor. I only wrote professional in this instance because I thought the sentence sounded better than writing 'instructor' and 'instructor'.
I can assure you that seeing BSAC being continually prodded with the amateur status stick, get's my back up.
We are all sensitive little flowers sometimes aren't we. :D Sorry Matt and Edward, there was no point scoring or stick prodding intended at all about amateur -v- professional, because I do know that BSAC truly has some amazing and examplorary instructors. V. talented, v. experienced and v. dedicated.
Edward did go on to make another comment though;
The use of amateur conjures up images (for me anyway) of haphazard activities.
I agree with you Edward, "amateur" makes me nervous. I see where Matt is coming from, but feel that BSAC promoting itself as an amateur diving agency is not the right route to go down and unfortunately commercial -v- non commercial can be confusing. I am not sure of the right word though. Does anyone else have any suggestions?
Someone else said about advertising and I can see the point of advertising in Diver and Sport Diver, but why sing to the choir and 'recycle' divers from other agencies? Wouldn't it be a smarter and better move to spend precious budget attracting new blood into diving instead? How about getting something into a motor cycle, skiing or sailing magazine? These people are adventerous people, like doing things outside, and enjoy excitement and thrilling sports.
Blue Peter was a smart move - I was 'captured' at 2 by diving watching Jaques Cousteau. We are in for a good time this year diving wise, with Monty Halls and other projects coming up for transmission. It's good that we have some heros of diving out there in the big wide world and programmes like Blue Peter helping sow the seed that diving is a cool fun sport.
garethwoodruff
01-03-2010, 12:02
Someone mentioned the DiveFest earlier in this thread. I think the concept is excellent and inspired and well done SITA in coming up with this - UK Diving plc presents British Diving! I do however think that September would be much better time to run this. In May the water has barely started to warm up. In September the sea is pretty much the warmest it's going to get, and fingers crossed, we're more likely to get better weather.
Plus, it's the end of the summer holidays. UK Diving plc is more likely to attract the returning holiday makers who've gone snorkelling or done a trydive in resort in the previous couple of months. The wonderous images of underwater life are still vividly dancing in their brains, so if you then dangle the idea of a DiveFest in front of them and say "hey we've got mouthwatering diving here too", maybe just maybe they will say "let's find out what diving is like the UK".
Onto other matters;
I really don't think so - the status is irrelevant to pretty much most divers because it means nothing to them. What does mean something to most divers, and I've said this time and again, is the Clubs - BSAC's strength and it's USP. Get a good BSAC club and they are very powerful in lots of ways. They nuture, encourage and mentor new talent, become part of the community supporting non diving projects (raising money for local charities), and have an incredible social life. The whole experience can truly transform someone's life in a very positive way. If you join a decent club, you learn so much about yourself. What you can achieve. Develop new skills and I am not talking only diving here. Think how BSAC training has helped people in their real jobs put together presenations and then stand up and talk to their colleagues. This is empowering confidence building stuff. Members start to think about things differently, ie driving down to the South Coast is no longer a major expedition, but a five hour car journey instead. PADI doesn't do clubs. For me this how BSAC differentiates itself. Diving has the ability to create friendships as strong and binding as hoops of steel. True friendships for life. This is BSAC's power, a key attribute and it's very positive and great from a marketing perspective.
Another comment was made amateur -v- professionals and we've had long debates about this. It's funny, you think you have written something that's easily understood and v. clear and then someone else interprets it in a completely different manner. I actually was not making any point about amateur -v- professionals, just saying on that day at that time I was proud to be a PADI Instructor. I only wrote professional in this instance because I thought the sentence sounded better than writing 'instructor' and 'instructor'.
We are all sensitive little flowers sometimes aren't we. :D Sorry Matt and Edward, there was no point scoring or stick prodding intended at all about amateur -v- professional, because I do know that BSAC truly has some amazing and examplorary instructors. V. talented, v. experienced and v. dedicated.
Edward did go on to make another comment though;
I agree with you Edward, "amateur" makes me nervous. I see where Matt is coming from, but feel that BSAC promoting itself as an amateur diving agency is not the right route to go down and unfortunately commercial -v- non commercial can be confusing. I am not sure of the right word though. Does anyone else have any suggestions?
Someone else said about advertising and I can see the point of advertising in Diver and Sport Diver, but why sing to the choir and 'recycle' divers from other agencies? Wouldn't it be a smarter and better move to spend precious budget attracting new blood into diving instead? How about getting something into a motor cycle, skiing or sailing magazine? These people are adventerous people, like doing things outside, and enjoy excitement and thrilling sports.
Blue Peter was a smart move - I was 'captured' at 2 by diving watching Jaques Cousteau. We are in for a good time this year diving wise, with Monty Halls and other projects coming up for transmission. It's good that we have some heros of diving out there in the big wide world and programmes like Blue Peter helping sow the seed that diving is a cool fun sport.
Unpaid professionals is not a bad description, as is volunteer instructors.
The definition of a professional is interesting, one of the dictionary definitions is 'very competent' which I like.
On your points regarding 'dive fest' I have to disagree with them. Its just 1 event, I'm sure its not aimed at people interested in UK diving just turning up. If you have a weekend of bad weather, you have put them off for life :p
Dive fest for me is simply a destraction of the core activities that BSAC should be undertaking. As long as it does not take up the time of the paid staff at HQ and breaks even, then fair enough.
Certainly its in Cornwall, and is again in Cornwall, from someone living in Scotland, its a bit of an irrelevance.
Gareth.
Maybe aiming at the early - mid 20s? Spare time, spare cash, looking for something more fulfilling than getting drunk every weekend?
Exactly why I want to join BSAC! having said that the excuse to go for a pint on a Wednesday evening down at the local yaught club, is another! LOL
Possibly an impossible proposal (possibly still drunk after the footy yesterday):
BSAC Members and clubs seem to favour AP and Apex (both brittish diving companies) why not try to join up with them? BSAC advertise and 'push' those products and in return branches get promotional offers.
This may already happen????? but one thing is for sure all new divers have a need for all things shiny - it may also help the LDS as they could perhaps advertise the club in return for stocking items with an agreed mark up ensuring that BSAC club members shop with them and Apex/AP will sell more kit therefore making it cheaper to produce.
If you can buy a Buddy comando for say £380 as a 'off the street' diver, but say £340 as a member of BSAC then you will start thinking, wow! its only gonna cost me a tenner to be a member and I'll get a £45 mag subscription - I know what I'd do, then BSAC send a list of all 'local divers' to the branches
who can then 'mail drop' showing the services that they offer.
Everyones a winner (well apart from those companies from who are not involved)
Apology's for the atrocious spelling in the previous post! as I said I have a bit of a thick head today. :o
What we need is to identify the different "types" of divers out there and develop policies to attract them. Here's a start on the "types":
1. never dived before
2. done a PADI course while on holiday
3. only dive when on holiday
4. "returning to diving" divers (eg, after family commitments)
5. fallen out with their existing club
6. university leavers
7. military leavers
8. don't want to be in a club but still want to dive
9. technical divers not in a club
So- grab a number and think of a way of attracting them. One per post, please.... :)
What we need is to identify the different "types" of divers out there and develop policies to attract them. Here's a start on the "types":
1. never dived before
2. done a PADI course while on holiday
3. only dive when on holiday
4. "returning to diving" divers (eg, after family commitments)
5. fallen out with their existing club
6. university leavers
7. military leavers
8. don't want to be in a club but still want to dive
9. technical divers not in a club
What about the club doing some 'Charity work' for ex-service men who have disabilities?
There is an oganisation called Blesma who encourage these guys and girls to take up hobbies, your club could get in touch and offer to organise a TRY DIVE in your area, it may generate some memberships and even if you dont get memberships its still a very worthwhile cause and promotes some good feeling towards BSAC which seems to be required at the moment.
I got to know about it through this article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/telegraphchristmasappeal/6859006/Injured-soldiers-find-hope-on-the-slopes.html
The web site is :
http://www.blesma.org/about-us.html
What about the club doing some 'Charity work' for ex-service men who have disabilities?
There is an oganisation called Blesma who encourage these guys and girls to take up hobbies, your club could get in touch and offer to organise a TRY DIVE in your area, it may generate some memberships and even if you dont get memberships its still a very worthwhile cause and promotes some good feeling towards BSAC which seems to be required at the moment.
I got to know about it through this article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/telegraphchristmasappeal/6859006/Injured-soldiers-find-hope-on-the-slopes.html
The web site is :
http://www.blesma.org/about-us.htmlBrilliant idea. And great publicity, too.
Woohoo!
Were starting to get positive!
Any one else want to pick a number ???????
1. never dived before
Branch differences are very important here. Never-dived-before advertising is generally of the rather glamorous, leisure and pleasure variety (not surprisingly) which is fine until/unless the product fails to live up to expectations (whatever those happen to be). A difficulty for BSAC (in this market) is promoting a variable product and I do think there is room for BSAC to develop some sort of Branch ID or labelling system which differentiates branches according to some basic but useful criteria, somewhat like the PADI resort stuff maybe? For example, (off the top of my head!):
BSAC Technical Development Branch (identifies itself as a branch with technical diving focus, or ability/training capacity)
BSAC Instructor Development Branch (identifies itself as a branch that has strength in/focuses on Instructor development)
BSAC Family Branch (identifies self as a family oriented branch – active snorkelling instructors, kids club at the pool, whatever)
BSAC Diver Training Programme Branch (Identifies self as training DTP focussed)
Whatever system/criteria is used, and these are purely examples, the point is that branches could, according to a set of guidelines, and perhaps against a set of attendant standards, self-identify as having particular interests/strengths. BSAC could then tailor campaigns and activities in a slightly more focused and assured way. For example, Jimmy Newdiver sees an ad for entry level diving lessons, contacts BSAC and is directed only to branches which identify themselves as entry level training branches, and which may have signed up to a set of additional standards or agreements as to what that means in terms of product delivery (training timescales/KIT service standards/member service standards/whatever).
Prevents (a bit anyway) Jimmy Newdiver coming on here in X months saying “still not qualified with BSAC” and brings expectations and delivery a little closer together all round. Would work in the same way for other branch types – want to develop along the technical route – seek out self–identifying technical development branches.
Doesn’t get up the nose of branches who don’t want HQ interference/additional standards etc as they simply continue business-as-usual. Branches can self select and some sort of regional/national network applies quality controls.
3. only dive when on holiday
PADI pool skills refresher style offerings perhaps – we can do it already of course but do we have a name/process/universal cost/economies of scale that a slightly more formal or national product might deliver. Just a thought but a low cost pre-holiday skill refresher (aka scuba review) session with a free key ring/BC whistle/O-ring holder/whatever might help with branch intros/a bit of feel good factor/etc.
Also, for divers 1, 2, and 3, what about a slightly more formalised/organised central booking system run by HQ (in addition to existing branch arrangements) – i.e. when a diver rings/emails HQ, there is always an answer and HQ makes efforts to contact branch, agrees suitable dates for diver to attend try-dive/refresher/pool night etc. and contacts the diver with those details confirmed. It’s anecdotal but I would bet a lot of enquires at branch are lost through the club phone/email not being answered or through delays or perceived hassle in getting responses.
5. fallen out with their existing club
Do BSAC ask why people leave – i.e. write to non-renewals and analyse the responses? May be worth doing so if not. Trickier at branch level as then you are into interfering/local politics etc and solutions are more removed in any case.
6. university leavers
As previously suggested by others a Uni leaver transfer pack of some sort – an intro to be handed to another branch once settled or just a reminder sitting on the shelf for the uni leaver to get back into diving sometime. Maybe an info sheet reminding said leaver of the value of some BSAC experiences in the job – whatever.
8. don't want to be in a club but still want to dive
Temporary membership arrangements (widely advertised) to allow non BSAC people to attend SDCs?
Research the market – why don’t people want to be in club in the first place (the reasons may not be what we expect)?
I really don't think so - the status is irrelevant to pretty much most divers because it means nothing to them. What does mean something to most divers, and I've said this time and again, is the Clubs - BSAC's strength and it's USP.We are talking marketing and differentiation here rather than selling points. National Governing Body is a pretty descriptive title, irrespective of whether the meaning is fully understood or not. The fact that it get's people's back up proves it is working to an extent. (one, one, eight, twenty-four, severn anyone).
The problem I see trying to market BSAC on the back of the club system, is how exactly do you wrap it up in a couple words that are memorable, instantly recognisable and associated only with The BSAC? Attempting to explain the difference between The BSAC, a local BSAC branch, a club attached to a PADI centre or even a working mens club, is going to take far too many words. You can sell the club system once you have someones attention, but it does not lend itself to marketing.
The whole experience can truly transform someone's life in a very positive way. You can not easily sell a life changing experience to a well adjusted person (who is not looking for it). They are unlikely to believe it is even possible until it happens to them. What does work, what a certain other organisation does very well, is selling the lifestyle the target audience aspires to.
For me this how BSAC differentiates itself. Diving has the ability to create friendships as strong and binding as hoops of steel. True friendships for life. This is BSAC's strength.I think you are touching on product values here. What you describe is WHAT differentiates BSAC, personally I don't think it is HOW The BSAC differentiates itself, further that it is way too vague to be useful for that purpose. What BSAC sells, in a small number of words, is 'Opportunity and Participation' The things you mention are perfectly true, they are the opportunities presented by BSAC membership, but you only experience them when you participate. This is uniquely different to the commercial sector, where opportunity and experience are exchanged for cash.
I actually was not making any point about amateur -v- professionals,In the spirit of the thread, constructive ideas for changing the perception of BSAC for the better, I thought your anecdote was entirely inappropriate. Once again promulgating the negative stereotype of The BSAC, as an insular and prejudiced mob of neanderthals.
BSAC has created these facilities, opened them to everyone and provided an AUP that enshrines everyone's right to criticise them. Hardly the actions of an insular organisation, to my mind. It's a shame PADI don't have a forum of their own where we can all go and recount our tales of Diving Professionals giving the cast of Holiday Reps Uncut a run for their money ;)
We are all sensitive little flowers sometimes aren't we.It is not so much that I am sensitive, as fed up with seeing PADI members availing themselves of BSAC facilities (these forums) to spread the manure. For Edward, myself and the other BSAC volunteers that facilitate the forums, it is a bit like inviting someone into your home and having to listen to them insult your wife. It is not polite, it is unprofessional and far too much of it goes on.
Sorry Matt and Edward, there was no point scoring or stick prodding intended at all about amateur -v- professional, because I do know that BSAC truly has some amazing and examplorary instructors. V. talented, v. experienced and v. dedicated.Thank you for the apology and providing some balance Roz. I will simply ask that you try to remember who's home you are in next time.
Edward did go on to make another comment though;
I agree with you Edward, "amateur" makes me nervous. I see where Matt is coming from, but feel that BSAC promoting itself as an amateur diving agency is not the right route to go down and unfortunately commercial -v- non commercial can be confusing. I am not sure of the right word though. Does anyone else have any suggestions? Odd that the word 'Amateur' has come to be associated with shoddy. Maybe someone would like to tell the sports men and women that were competing in Vancouver over the last fortnight ;) Anyhow, I was not really suggesting that BSAC overtly promote itself using the word 'Amateur.' Literally speaking, 'Amateur' means lover of or with passion. These are the sort of strong and positive emotions that not only describe how BSAC is different, but can be used to market a positive image association.
The alternative to amateur seems to be volunteer, but that conjures an image of earnest types selling home mede jam at the village fete, to me. I would rather BSAC associate to Olympic athletes than the WI :)
Someone else said about advertising and I can see the point of advertising in Diver and Sport Diver, but why sing to the choir and 'recycle' divers from other agencies?One of the messages I think we should be promoting, because it is in the spirit of togetherness, is '...Also BSAC' The concept that BSAC membership is relevant to all (British) divers, whatever training courses they take.
Wouldn't it be a smarter and better move to spend precious budget attracting new blood into diving instead? How about getting something into a motor cycle, skiing or sailing magazine? These people are adventerous people, like doing things outside, and enjoy excitement and thrilling sports.A lot of merit in that. An issue is that with the current state of it's own marketing, BSAC would be pay-rolling adverts which (let's be honest) PADI would then capitalise on. As an organisation, we really are not that well off to be that charitable, in my opinion. A smarter idea might be a collaborative effort, under the BDSG umbrella for instance.
Blue Peter was a smart moveYep, but with very little marketing value as a one off.
[QUOTE=MattS]
The problem I see trying to market BSAC on the back of the club system, is how exactly do you wrap it up in a couple words that are memorable, instantly recognisable and associated only with The BSAC?
QUOTE]
PADI Say: The way the world learns to dive
BSAC Say: The way Divers continue to Dive.
It is not so much that I am sensitive, as fed up with seeing PADI members availing themselves of BSAC facilities (these forums) to spread the manure. For Edward, myself and the other BSAC volunteers that facilitate the forums, it is a bit like inviting someone into your home and having to listen to them insult your wife. It is not polite, it is unprofessional and far too much of it goes on.
Thank you for the apology and providing some balance Roz. I will simply ask that you try to remember who's home you are in next time.
I need to go and have a think about your other comments before I respond. However, this is my home Matt! I've been a BSAC diver for some 18 years? How long do I need to be a BSAC diver before you'll consider me welcome?! This is as much my place as it is yours. Perhaps now you might understand why I was so aghast. And if you read my posts you will see how many times I've posted trying to bring balance when someone goes on an anti rant. So I don't think your comment about remembering whose home it is, is entirely fair do you?
Odd that the word 'Amateur' has come to be associated with shoddy. Maybe someone would like to tell the sports men and women that were competing in Vancouver over the last fortnight ;) Anyhow, I was not really suggesting that BSAC overtly promote itself using the word 'Amateur.' Literally speaking, 'Amateur' means lover of or with passion. These are the sort of strong and positive emotions that not only describe how BSAC is different, but can be used to market a positive image association.
or how about 'BSAC - The passion of Diving' or is that a bit corny?
1. never dived before
Branch differences are very important here. Never-dived-before advertising is generally of the rather glamorous, leisure and pleasure variety (not surprisingly) which is fine until/unless the product fails to live up to expectations (whatever those happen to be). A difficulty for BSAC (in this market) is promoting a variable product and I do think there is room for BSAC to develop some sort of Branch ID or labelling system which differentiates branches according to some basic but useful criteria, somewhat like the PADI resort stuff maybe? For example, (off the top of my head!):
BSAC Technical Development Branch (identifies itself as a branch with technical diving focus, or ability/training capacity)
BSAC Instructor Development Branch (identifies itself as a branch that has strength in/focuses on Instructor development)
BSAC Family Branch (identifies self as a family oriented branch – active snorkelling instructors, kids club at the pool, whatever)
BSAC Diver Training Programme Branch (Identifies self as training DTP focussed)
Whatever system/criteria is used, and these are purely examples, the point is that branches could, according to a set of guidelines, and perhaps against a set of attendant standards, self-identify as having particular interests/strengths. BSAC could then tailor campaigns and activities in a slightly more focused and assured way. For example, Jimmy Newdiver sees an ad for entry level diving lessons, contacts BSAC and is directed only to branches which identify themselves as entry level training branches, and which may have signed up to a set of additional standards or agreements as to what that means in terms of product delivery (training timescales/KIT service standards/member service standards/whatever).
Prevents (a bit anyway) Jimmy Newdiver coming on here in X months saying “still not qualified with BSAC” and brings expectations and delivery a little closer together all round. Would work in the same way for other branch types – want to develop along the technical route – seek out self–identifying technical development branches.
Doesn’t get up the nose of branches who don’t want HQ interference/additional standards etc as they simply continue business-as-usual. Branches can self select and some sort of regional/national network applies quality controls.
3. only dive when on holiday
PADI pool skills refresher style offerings perhaps – we can do it already of course but do we have a name/process/universal cost/economies of scale that a slightly more formal or national product might deliver. Just a thought but a low cost pre-holiday skill refresher (aka scuba review) session with a free key ring/BC whistle/O-ring holder/whatever might help with branch intros/a bit of feel good factor/etc.
Also, for divers 1, 2, and 3, what about a slightly more formalised/organised central booking system run by HQ (in addition to existing branch arrangements) – i.e. when a diver rings/emails HQ, there is always an answer and HQ makes efforts to contact branch, agrees suitable dates for diver to attend try-dive/refresher/pool night etc. and contacts the diver with those details confirmed. It’s anecdotal but I would bet a lot of enquires at branch are lost through the club phone/email not being answered or through delays or perceived hassle in getting responses.
5. fallen out with their existing club
Do BSAC ask why people leave – i.e. write to non-renewals and analyse the responses? May be worth doing so if not. Trickier at branch level as then you are into interfering/local politics etc and solutions are more removed in any case.
6. university leavers
As previously suggested by others a Uni leaver transfer pack of some sort – an intro to be handed to another branch once settled or just a reminder sitting on the shelf for the uni leaver to get back into diving sometime. Maybe an info sheet reminding said leaver of the value of some BSAC experiences in the job – whatever.
8. don't want to be in a club but still want to dive
Temporary membership arrangements (widely advertised) to allow non BSAC people to attend SDCs?
Research the market – why don’t people want to be in club in the first place (the reasons may not be what we expect)?Some good ideas, there. I thought of a "profile" automatically generated from the membership DB but maybe an "opt in" system, or something where the DB acts as a "starting point" and can be modified by each individual club.
At the moment each branch has a name, contact detail and link to their own website (if they have one) but as you can imagine, the quality and content of these sites varies for excellent to non-existent. And it gives you no idea of the sort of club it is- is it a club full of young, square jawed professionals or is it twenty 55 year old beards sat muttering into their halves of mild about the "good old days" when we used to dive the Salsette on a single 10 with a drysuit made from liquid latex and army long johns?
You can't tell. And there are only so many clubs a person will try to join before they give up.
At the back of the dive mags, they have a list of various dive centres with funky little pictures next to them saying what they do. How about something like that? You could have lots of little pics- a RIB, a family, hard boat, compressor, pool, twinset (technical- or how about a hogloop ;)), mortar board (DTP) and maybe a little bar chart of the age profile split into fairly broad groups (Jr, 10-20, 20-30, 30-40, 40-50, 50-60, 60+).
bythesea
01-03-2010, 16:18
How about trying to shake off the dusty image, maybe a shiny poster with shiny young people of different sexes and creeds, smiling, happy, having a good time.
The tag line could be something like....BSAC..It;s not all beards and real ale....
Tap into that youthful sense of humour by poking a bit of fun at ourselves to show the world BSAC is not full of over serious sandalistas
Ron MacRae
01-03-2010, 16:21
The tag line could be something like....BSAC..It;s not all beards and real ale....
I thought Nigel's "Come diving with us" was pretty near the spot.
Ron.
Or let's not reinvent the wheel and just nick what PADI do with Google Maps:
http://www.padi.com/scuba/locate-a-padi-dive-shop/default.aspx
They even have a "sponsored link" bit down the side for the BSAC schools...
bythesea
01-03-2010, 16:36
I thought Nigel's "Come diving with us" was pretty near the spot.
Ron.
Really, you average early to mid 20's loaded and FHM reader is going to respond to that?
It is a bit dry and dusty IMO, It needs to be something that will make people smile, maybe laugh, than they will remember it
bythesea
01-03-2010, 16:40
Or let's not reinvent the wheel and just nick what PADI do with Google Maps:
http://www.padi.com/scuba/locate-a-padi-dive-shop/default.aspx
They even have a "sponsored link" bit down the side for the BSAC schools...
Interesting, but what interests me more is the top quarter of that page compared with the top quarter of any of the BSAC pages....where is the pow factor, that PADI site grabs you visually, not so with BSACs and as mentioned earlier by someone, it is a nightmare to navigate.
We need some pazzaz.....time to sweep away the cobwebs, this is an image problem, the image is too old an uninspiring...
ChristianG
01-03-2010, 16:41
We are talking marketing and differentiation here rather than selling points. National Governing Body is a pretty descriptive title, irrespective of whether the meaning is fully understood or not. The fact that it get's people's back up proves it is working to an extent. (one, one, eight, twenty-four, severn anyone).
The "National Governing Body" is nothing of the sort if you're referring to it as the Official Body of SCUBA Diving in the UK. If it were it would be able to "order" the PADIs of this world to follow its fiat on Hog Rigging, it can't. The best it can do is "advise" the HEC (SP?) on what that body should do and to my knowledge the HEC is not bound to accept their advice.
Sorry, I don't understand the last part of that sentence at all.
The problem I see trying to market BSAC on the back of the club system, is how exactly do you wrap it up in a couple words that are memorable, instantly recognisable and associated only with The BSAC?
How's about something like:
"Join your local Club" or
"A Club's better than a school" or
"Being with other members is better than being with other divers".
I know, they're all pretty lame, but something along those lines? I'm far from an advertising guru. Perhaps employing one might do the trick?
Quite frankly the current strap line is just as bad as my pathetic offerings above. Having said that, it evolved, no doubt, in a more innocent age.
Here you go. Took me all of 5 mins to create this. Now we just need every other club to do it...
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=52.941811,-1.198883&spn=0.035276,0.078707&z=14&msid=100583770404428034750.000480bfca6630e500253
bythesea
01-03-2010, 16:57
Here you go. Took me all of 5 mins to create this. Now we just need every other club to do it...
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=52.941811,-1.198883&spn=0.035276,0.078707&z=14&msid=100583770404428034750.000480bfca6630e500253
OK..done..not sure how you put that mask icon on though
link brings up a map of the USA....hmmm...useful..
Hickdive
01-03-2010, 16:59
or how about 'BSAC - The passion of Diving' or is that a bit corny?
Next time I'm tramping back up a beach in Argyll, sodden from a leaky wrist seal, with the horizontal sleet bouncing off my face (which is adorned with a huge mask-oyster) I shall remember 'BSAC - The passion of Diving'.:D
Here you go. Took me all of 5 mins to create this. Now we just need every other club to do it...
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=52.941811,-1.198883&spn=0.035276,0.078707&z=14&msid=100583770404428034750.000480bfca6630e500253
OMG its working 9 views in 9 minutes! LOL
OMG its working 9 views in 9 minutes! LOL
Seriously though good work, everyone should have a go!
Next time I'm tramping back up a beach in Argyll, sodden from a leaky wrist seal, with the horizontal sleet bouncing off my face (which is adorned with a huge mask-oyster) I shall remember 'BSAC - The passion of Diving'.:D
Did you have the wrist seals fitted by an amateur? oh god, did I really just say that?:D
Here you go. Took me all of 5 mins to create this. Now we just need every other club to do it...
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=52.941811,-1.198883&spn=0.035276,0.078707&z=14&msid=100583770404428034750.000480bfca6630e500253Ap ologies to BSAC- it's been done already and even has clicky filters. Brilliant:
http://www.bsac.com/findit.asp?section=000100010040&cat=clubs&view=map&glat=52.98172322390683&glng=-1.373291015625&gzoom=8
thinks like this thread on YD
http://www.yorkshire-divers.com/forums/training-forum/104380-bsac-3.html
they guy asks basicaly if BSAC accept his quals which they do then people pile on going no they dont accept this they do that you cross over as this then you cna do this to go deeper.
when the simple answer is YES they do accept it. you will be asked to do a introduction to bsac bit and then the DO may ask you to do a check dive to ensure your ok but beyond that welcome and happy diving.
bythesea
01-03-2010, 19:13
Linking to the first rather than the third page would be better Paul, that way it makes more sense
http://www.yorkshire-divers.com/forums/training-forum/104380-bsac.html
OK..done..not sure how you put that mask icon on though
link brings up a map of the USA....hmmm...useful..
Something wrong with your machine? When I selected it the link brings up the Uni location and when you select the icon it gives you the clubs information including equipment such as RIB etc. What are you looking at?
Hamish
bythesea
01-03-2010, 20:07
I was referring to the link I put up then removed as it didn't work
I was referring to the link I put up then removed as it didn't work
Now I know why I was issued me with that crystal ball.:D
Hamish
The "National Governing Body" is nothing of the sort if you're referring to it as the Official Body of SCUBA Diving in the UK.The term is descriptive, if not particularly accurate in meaning. It identifies BSAC as being a National body of some import.
Like the terms, 'amateur' and 'professional' the meaning of 'NGB' for UK residents is subject to sociopolitical change. The remit for all NGBs in the UK is provided by Sport UK and is, according to Neath County Council, currently;
A National Governing Body of Sport (NGB), oversees the existing Vision for that Sport as well as the future direction and focus of that particular Sport.
National Governing Bodies are responsible for :-
Providing a National directive and structure
Providing support and insurance to those clubs that affiliate,
Increase the quality and quantity of coaches, volunteers and officials,
Organise and/or provide information on competitive opportunities at all levels,
Assist with facility developments,
Provide information and advise on funding and
Provide clear objectives and actions for clubs and individuals in assist in the development of that sport.
In short, the purpose of National Governing Bodies are:
To increase participation,
Develop talent and
Deliver top-level success.
Sorry, I don't understand the last part of that sentence at all.There is an advert running on UK TV for a directory service. They use the most incredibly annoying theme tune to imprint their service within the psyche of a disinterested audience. Webuyanycar dot com, uses an even more annoying theme to achieve exactly the same result. Here you go. See whether you can stop yourself from remembering these (you need a sound card);
http://www.televisiontunes.com/118_247_Directory_Heaven_-_Commercial.html
http://www.televisiontunes.com/We_Buy_Any_Car_-_Commercial.html
How's about something like:
...
I know, they're all pretty lame, but something along those lines? I'm far from an advertising guru.Neither am I an advertising guru, but the psychology interests me.
Best start with the primary concepts we might want to communicate;
Collaboration
Synergy
Togetherness
I don't know, picture a bunch of separated individuals all possessing several of the same item of scuba equipment. Put them together and you get a group of happy divers saving dolphins or whatever, under the tag BSAC - Better together.
Quite frankly the current strap line is just as bad as my pathetic offerings above.The current strap line is poor on many levels.
The current strap line is poor on many levels.
I don't envy the person who has to work out the advertising stratagy, we brits are a perculier bunch.
I do remember that the last part of the PADI OW course was the 'advertising' section, intended to 'sell' more PADI courses.
I did my OW course in Israel, with a group of brits of varying ages. The instructor had only ever taught Israel's or Americans. He left the video running whilst he left the room. He was in shock when he came back. Instread of the usual whooping, cheering, self congratulation & clapping. He came back into a room where the whole group where rolling around the floor in hysterical laughter, replaying the particuallly entertaining sections.
Gareth
Tony Dwyer
03-03-2010, 09:07
How's about something like:
"Join your local Club" or
"A Club's better than a school" or
"Being with other members is better than being with other divers".
Or perhaps something like
'Diving with freinds (or mates) is better than diving with strangers'
I don't envy the person who has to work out the advertising stratagy, we brits are a perculier bunch.There are some basic rules and techniques. Unfortunately our current strap ticks severals items on the list of things to avoid.
Tony Dwyer
03-03-2010, 11:26
I don't envy the person who has to work out the advertising stratagy, we brits are a perculier bunch.
I do remember that the last part of the PADI OW course was the 'advertising' section, intended to 'sell' more PADI courses.
I did my OW course in Israel, with a group of brits of varying ages. The instructor had only ever taught Israel's or Americans. He left the video running whilst he left the room. He was in shock when he came back. Instread of the usual whooping, cheering, self congratulation & clapping. He came back into a room where the whole group where rolling around the floor in hysterical laughter, replaying the particuallly entertaining sections.
Gareth
I can soooo relate to that. :)
Like most advertising of American origin, PADI's can be painfully embassrassing and / or hilarious.
BSAC must be careful not to emulate PADI's stuff in the UK and be sure to establish its own identity in teh m inds of the viewers.
There are some basic rules and techniques. Unfortunately our current strap ticks severals items on the list of things to avoid.
Matt
Can you list some rules and techniques to stop us all making fools of ourselves? (if thats at all possible!):p
I can soooo relate to that. :)
Like most advertising of American origin, PADI's can be painfully embassrassing and / or hilarious.
BSAC must be careful not to emulate PADI's stuff in the UK and be sure to establish its own identity in teh m inds of the viewers.
Just incase anyone thought otherwise, my comments where not a slight on PADI. But it just points out how advetising has to suit the target audience.
I guess the unintended positive of that last part of the course is when every I think of PADI courses, that first experience is never far from my mind, & always brings a smile to my face, & I say that as a PADI DM as well as a BSAC diver:).
Gareth
Just in case anyone thought otherwise, my comments where not a slight on PADI.....when ever I think of PADI courses, that first experience is never far from my mind, & always brings a smile to my face....Gareth
Gareth, I never thought for one minute it was and I know exactly what you mean. I truly squirm when teaching Lesson Five when I have to confirm that the purpose of the PADI System of continuing education is to 'meet people, go places and do things'. It's difficult to say this with a straight face. One class added another answer of 'good old apple pie'. And do you know the worst of it? I'd taught a load of open water classes back to back, and was asked one day why I did diving. And the phrase "to meet people, go places and do things underwater" just came out of my mouth automatically. I couldn't believe my own ears and had a very strong urge to go and find some soap and water. We really do have a different slant and philosphy when compared to other English speaking countries.
Alan White
03-03-2010, 15:20
Roz
I have been keeping a watching brief on this thread and input has been mixed but most positive. Lets face it debate is good is it not?
I am sorry that you got rounded upon for your mixed heritage and to be honest who gives a damn, it makes you a more rounded person :)
Read your profile as well and it reads like a page from who's who.
The last quote made me laugh a lot!
Oh how true it is!
Having spent a chunck of my life working with our American cousins.....
We really do have a different slant and philosphy when compared to other English speaking countries.
And for the record the other countries speak English with a slant, we speak English do we not? Or are the PC police banning that connection to being English as well?
Sorry its a bit off topic for the main, bad, bad me!
Cross over into BSAC that I have seen is not a big thing.
I dive with PADI and SSI crossovers as buddies and having something in common, yet from a slight change of angle is good, it really is.
One belongs to my branch and one is an independent diver with who I have dived quite a bit in UK pits and lakes before he jets off to sunny climes and leaves me in good old blighty. ( I feel gren or is that the water?)
Collaboration
Synergy
TogethernessThe needle on my bollox-o-meter has just pegged out, the glass fell out the front and the scale card boinged out on a spring followed by a wisp of smoke.
Best strap line I know is for the US state of Kentucky, famous for bourbon and horse racing.
Unbridled Spirit.
Can you list some rules and techniques to stop us all making fools of ourselves? (if thats at all possible!):pRather than me trying to write tag lines 101, let's jump to the chase.
Starting with Christian's attempts.
"Join your local Club"
The concepts clear but the tag turns out to be poor, due to it being an instruction. "Your local Club needs you" would be better as it's an invitation, but conjures images of a bloke with a big moustache (Lord Kitchener). Might work for the military leavers Woz was on about.
Go back to the concepts though, ownership and locality.
"BSAC - Your Local Diving Club" Does that work better?
Add a bit of rhythm "BSAC - Your neighbourhood diving Club"
The rhythm encourages a smile.
"A Club's better than a school"
Immediately problematic. The concepts are unclear. The statements inflammatory as a proposition and as an assertion. It is a specific comparison, which invites a contrary conclusion. So I really struggle to do much at all with this one. "BSAC - better diving start to finish" would be better, but I don't like the finality. "BSAC - better diving from the start" might be an improvement.
"Being with other members is better than being with other divers".
This one caused me to smile for the wrong reasons. Concepts OK. The tag is far too wordy. The word 'member' can be a double entendre (fnarr, fnarr) so ticks the list of things to be avoided. The unescapable message is segregation, which is contrary to the concept.
Back to the concepts, belonging and togetherness.
Turn it into an invitation.
"BSAC - Be part of it"
Better, but not great. It appeals to the herding instinct at the emotional level, but 'The way the World learns to dive' makes a much better job of it.
We could add a little altruism, "BSAC - Diving for everyone"
Or continuity, ownership and personality, "BSAC - Your best diving buddy"
Tony's suggestion
'Diving with freinds (or mates) is better than diving with strangers'
An observation, good. Wordy and the concepts are a bit vague, bad. Again there is the unintended inflammatory assertion of specific comparison. The inference that anyone diving with strangers is doing it wrong.
We could reduce it to try to improve it, "BSAC - Where divers become friends"
Or "BSAC - Where divers meet friends" although that's a bit dating agency.
I left your own suggestion to last "BSAC - The passion of Diving"
Emotionally strong, non-specific, aspirational, un-conditional, all good.
The word 'The', is unnecessary and off putting.
"BSAC - Passion for diving" which leaves the question begging 'Do you have a passion for diving?'
Hopefully the critique will have given you a few pointers. There are plenty of resources online aimed at small businesses.
Hi,
Before adopting the current strap line Council (2006 to 2007) spend a lot of time discussing it, we also involved consultation with the membership and non-members and engaged a specialist consultants company.
There was not an out-right winner, but we had to settle on one and BSAC was lost in at least 10 commonly used ones. So by default I am one of those responsible for "Diving for divers".
Now a bit of time has passed I think we made the right decision to force one strap-line through.
And it wasn't just the strap-line we also standardised the logo.
Regards
Edward
bythesea
03-03-2010, 16:31
Add a bit of rhythm "BSAC - Your neighbourhood diving Club"
The rhythm encourages a smile.
Well seen as no one thought mine.....BSAC..it's not just beards and real ale... was worthy of a mention I thought this was the best of the choices so far although if you tweek it a little it flows better
Bsac - your neighbourhood dive club
The needle on my bollox-o-meter has just pegged out, the glass fell out the front and the scale card boinged out on a spring followed by a wisp of smoke.:D
The thing about working with new technology is you find a load of marketeers hanging around it, looking for new opportunities to exploit. During the 90s I was working as part of the forward team for an interactive media company that was going global. However glamorous it might sound, it meant sharing digs with the advertising people for up to nine months at a time (Moscow) and listening to them talk bollox. Thing is, turns out the bollox worked.
Best strap line I know is for the US state of Kentucky, famous for bourbon and horse racing.
Unbridled Spirit.Do you think they just thought that up in a moment of inspiration? I doubt it. I expect they sat down, thought out the concepts they wanted associated with their brand, brain dumped some raw ideas, iteratively critiqued and modified them until they ended up with a great strap line.
bythesea
03-03-2010, 16:36
brain dumped some raw ideas,
They did what? Was this before or after the thought shower?!?
They did what? Was this before or after the thought shower?!?After the pub and before the night club.
I left your own suggestion to last "BSAC - The passion of Diving"
Emotionally strong, non-specific, aspirational, un-conditional, all good.
The word 'The', is unnecessary and off putting.
"BSAC - Passion for diving" which leaves the question begging 'Do you have a passion for diving?'
This got me thinking. So what if we extended it to “BSAC – a passion for diving that creates a passion for living” , only thinking aloud.
I know as Edward has said it is not that long ago we created the strapline in use, but do we consider that changing it would attract more divers to our branches?
Hamish
one which just popped into my head is BSAC sorting out info packs on how to apply for grants, lotter funding etc and where such moneis can be nabbed from. to let clubs become better equiped through there own efforts
Mark Papp
03-03-2010, 17:05
They did what? Was this before or after the thought shower?!?AAArgh. It's a brainstorm, OK?
I know, you got me.
They did what? Was this before or after the thought shower?!?Bluddy hell that's the brand new gauge knackered too. I'm going to have to get one that goes to 11.
The strap line needs to be sort, sharp, to the point and catchy.
"Your neighbourhood dive club" shall I break out the Spidey Suit?
How about "My mum says BSAC is cool"
Do you think they just thought that up in a moment of inspiration? I doubt it. I expect they sat down, thought out the concepts they wanted associated with their brand, brain dumped some raw ideas, iteratively critiqued and modified them until they ended up with a great strap line.Ow ow ow now the gauge glass is in my eye, there's smoke pouring out of the hole where the face used to be and the needle has embedded itself 6" into the reinforced concrete 10 feet away. It's making a sound like a train whistle and all the local dogs are barking. The mounting screws have melted, the case is starting to slump too and the pipework leading to is is turning cherry red and swelling.
How about "My mum says BSAC is cool"Yo Momma's so cool....
Steve Summers
03-03-2010, 18:37
How about ''join BSAC and go to non porcine heaven?''
In Fairness to Edward (& the others involved). I think the standardisation of the logos & 'corporate identity' are all positive achievements.
As is the strap line, even it does make us squirm a little (as I said we brit's are perculier). Whilst we may want to change (update) it, it has serves a purpose, & if we where to second guess everything, nothing at all would happen.
Some times we need to put a flag in the sand (shot line in the water :)) & define a start from which to progress, rather than aimlessly go round in circles never achieving anything.
So whilst we may take the **** out of 'diving for divers', its a start & something to build on, &.....of course..... something for us to enjoy taking the micky out of :D .
Gareth
"Your neighbourhood dive club" shall I break out the Spidey Suit?
What the Scapascuba special dry suit?
http://www.scapascuba.co.uk/drysuitrepairs.htm
The membership kit that I received - it arrived in Sydney just a few days after joining BSAC direct (rather than a club) - was, to my way of thinking, a little better than I've seen from other organisations. And covered the fact that divers certified through other agencies were welcome to join.
One of the big problems with advertising/marketing programmes is ensuring that they're topical and relevant ... by the same token, change - for its own sake - often dilutes the impact of a potential message that is made redundant before its 'Natural Expiry' date.
Strike
"Wet wet wet"
"Hog loopy"
So whilst we may take the **** out of 'diving for divers', its a start & something to build on, &.....of course..... something for us to enjoy taking the micky out of :DI would agree with that Gareth. This thread was discussing how to attract more divers into BSAC and the marketing is pretty important to that end. Some people don't believe things like strap lines are important, many business people have a bunch of statistics which say they are. Whether it is sufficiently important to review the current strap line and logo (forward slants are a bit 80s), is a matter for Council to decide AFAIC. Personally I believe it is more important to understand the core business and get that in order first.
Just to take this on a different slant.
Much has been made of the need to gain more PADI crossovers and even
the suggestion to put people on PADI courses, because of the delay in BSAC
club training.
So the question needs to be asked why BSAC schools dont do more
Ocean Diver certs?
I know why, but it would be nice to guage an opinion as to what others
think.
You need to look at why more people don't do entry level BSAC courses. Mainly I would suggest is that when they ask around, PADI is more widely recognised, they can do a course on their hols and it gets done and dusted in less than a week for £300, getting them in the water and all excited.
BSAC clubs in my experience are especially good at grinding the enthusiasm out of new divers.
Richard Whitcombe
04-03-2010, 12:53
"BSAC Schools" being the problem. Its restrictive. A PADI instructor can teach a padi course in theory on his own or while working at any centre. The centre does not have to be a member of PADI or anything. This is the same for a lot of agencies.
With BSAC a BSAC instructor cannot teach a course unless its through a facility that has also registered itself to become a BSAC school and operates as a pseudo-club. Its a lot more restrictive, more money and effort for the individual and centre and therefore no real incentive for what is after all a tiny tiny minority of people that might request it.
The other issue is the modern world "time is everything". In reality the core skills taught in an entry level course are broadly similar for all agencies including BSAC. Where PADI and the others have a major advantage is the streamlining of these in terms of theory and so on. For example where i worked in Greece we had 2 people come in over the space of 8 months and ask could they do Sports Diver or Dive Leader. I had to tell them that yes although im a BSAC instructor i cant teach them here as the centre isnt a registered school. They did a PADI course. Not an issue currently as not one person has requested a BSAC course in the 12 months where ive been working where im at now.
PADI have the DVDs that convey whats needed. These can be seen on the day or in advance of starting the course. The e-learning idea means they can do even more including theory reviews and exams in advance if needed. There is a big push by most agencies for "self study" at home via the internet or even just normal hard media.
BSAC theory still relies on some bloke with a beard in front of powerpoint going on and on, you cant have him delivered to your house to cover the theory, you cant download him and have to sit in front of him for ages. You don't even have the ability to pause him and continue tomorrow where he left off. It takes time and time is what most people are trying to save.
There is also a lack of oversight and quality control - lots of clubs are left to their own devices and i know for a fact many are teaching their own versions of courses with their own views. 5 days ago i heard first hand of a club saying "the new trainees are all done and dusted but we're not signing them off until theyve done a few sea dives". Again this takes time, isnt adhering to standards but goes on a lot. Its a mess.
(Im only mentioning PADI here as i know abou their systems. Other agencies are also promoting self study and independent learning to streamline the theory parts of diving).
The time taken to learn both through schools and through clubs is a big big problem for BSAC - it needs to start looking at self-study and independent learning options certainly for the basic level courses to try to cut that down. As Woz said above, a lot of clubs have 1 intake of new trainees a year, they run 1 x SD course a year, 1 x DL a year etc. Each of these courses can easily take 6-12 months to complete. No point coming back saying "well we do it in 3 weekends" because in reality with a large percentage of clubs the truth is everything takes MONTHS.
You need to look at why more people don't do entry level BSAC courses.Agreed.
Mainly I would suggest is that when they ask around, PADI is more widely recognised,Agreed. Also, we (BSAC) do not value our own training schemes.
...they can do a course on their hols and it gets done and dusted in less than a week for £300, getting them in the water and all excited.As I understand it, if they walk into a school that teaches both PADI and BSAC they are sold PADI in preference. I don't know how much that has to do with PADIs Ts&Cs or the margin in the courses, but it will be one or both of them.
BSAC clubs in my experience are especially good at grinding the enthusiasm out of new divers.BSAC have created rules which make it so. One anecdote of poor instruction at a time, we are convincing ourselves branches can not train divers. I don't believe it myself.
Nick of Bristol
04-03-2010, 13:03
Our Club, Sevenside SAC in Bristol, have just got a £10,000 Sport England grant towards a new boat, O2 pump and Nitrox king blending panel.
Free money is out there !
Having seen entry level training from a couple of organisations, I don't think the course content at entry level is at all a problem. PADI have it off down pat and TBH, I don't think BSAC can compete with this. For a newbie diver, it takes dedication from them to stick with the club system and so you end up with disenchanted divers, especially when they meet mates who have done an OW course in a few days. People just don't want to hear that "if you stick at it we might get you in the water in 5 months". Enthusiastic learners want to get the theory done and get in the water and stay enthusiastic.
So.
Let's concentrate on getting these qualified divers into the club system. That's where the money is.
Oliver T
04-03-2010, 14:09
I heard exactly that grumble from a Padi instructor on Tuesday.
He's started out at a Uni BSAC club but got cheesed off with being kept out of the water, and taught all manner of useless crap - his words.
So he went PADI and now has only bad words to say about bsac.
We should definately be snapping up UK Padi trained divers - we can offer access to more diving, cheaper training, more diverse training the list goes on.
Sadly what we cant offer, as far as I can see, is a valid and worthwhile tech training. What we have is ok, but it still lets the club down IMO, resulting in lots of members going TDI or other for their tech.
Richard Whitcombe
04-03-2010, 14:13
Sadly what we cant offer, as far as I can see, is a valid and worthwhile tech training. What we have is ok, but it still lets the club down IMO, resulting in lots of members going TDI or other for their tech.
Don't even try to. They're a tiny percentage of the market compared to qualified non-tech divers. Get those in before worrying about other things. To do that you need to work on the speed of training issue and in my view self study combined with it along with policing standards in clubs far more rigidly.
Personally I believe it is more important to understand the core business and get that in order first.
Yep. Until we know *what* we're trying to sell, how are we going to sell it?
To that end, I have repeatedly asked the question "what is BSAC *for*?" No-one seems able to answer it! Let's hope the final response doesn't end up being "pour encourager les autres"...
Vic.
Don't even try to. They're a tiny percentage of the market compared to qualified non-tech divers.
Agreed. Having prestigious tekkie courses is a nice thing to have, but they aren't core business[1]. We have other things that ought to take priority for the limited resources available...
To do that you need to work on the speed of training issue
Yes.
and in my view self study combined with it
I'm not so sure about self-study; it can only speed up the theory part of training, where I don't see much of a problem anyway. It also leads to fragmentation of the class; that can lead to those self-studiers having to wait for the others to catch up. It is my belief that it is the *waiting for training* that most frustrates trainees, rather than the actual passage of time. Those with plenty to do don't seem to mind all that much...
That's not to say that some sort of distance learning project would be wrong[2] - just that I suspect it is still not the best use of our resources at present.
Vic.
[1] Unless anyone has any numbers that show otherwise, of course.
[2] I actually see this as an attractor: having the OD theory course on the web for general consumption gets people started along the BSAC way in the comfort of their own homes. They can learn the theory in their own time, get enthused - then they come to *us* for the tail end of the course. This should reduce the theory instruction load (although doubtless there will be some remedial instruction involved), but more importantly, it gives potential members that "try before you buy" experience. This means that they will tend to come to us *first*.
Richard Whitcombe
04-03-2010, 14:33
The online stuff im thinking of would be most useful for schools to break into the commercial market and directly compete with something like e-learning or "watching the DVD and book ahead of time). It would cut hours off the actual course in which they can pretty much turn up and dive (after a basic assessment of the theory etc).
It would help clubs too where typically you get beardie with 1hr a week rambling in front of powerpoint sometimes stretching the theory out to 9-10 weeks as a result.
ChristianG
04-03-2010, 14:44
BSAC have created rules which make it so. One anecdote of poor instruction at a time, we are convincing ourselves branches can not train divers. I don't believe it myself.
From what, admittedly little, it's not of value enough to be in the least significant, I've seen of BSAC OW divers they are largely a lot better trained at whatever experience level they have than equivalent training by the commercial Agencies, and I don't care which of those commercial Agencies we're talking about (with the possible, and notable, exception of GUE).
Mind, I've never seen a GUE-qualified OW diver at all, not to my knowledge anyway.
I think first off we need to accept that to have a recognised QA system
means throwing a lot of money at it and that's precisly what PADI has
done which enable them to run the "Instructor in a van" model.
BSAC doesnt have that luxury so is reliant on a QA system that is focussed
on the DO/club or the authorised school. So let's ignore any thoughts of
competing on that level and look at BSAC schools.
In an acredited BSAC school, why is a punter off the street more likely (by
a massive margin) to be sold a PADI cert than a BSAC one?
Why is the suggestion on here to get a quick PADI OW cert, then join a
BSAC club, instead of doing Ocean Diver at a BSAC school?
Why are there some advertised BSAC schools on the website, who havnt
actually done a BSAC course in years?
Again I've got one major reason, but be nice to see if anybody else comes
up with a similar opinion.
Richard Whitcombe
04-03-2010, 15:08
From what, admittedly little, it's not of value enough to be in the least significant, I've seen of BSAC OW divers they are largely a lot better trained at whatever experience level they have than equivalent training by the commercial Agencies,
Ive come across some worse than "other" agencies too. And also some very arrogant ones whose diving ability doesn't back up the comments. In short i dont see any difference in BSAC entry level vs any other entry level trained diver. What makes a diver is experience through diving. A 4 dive ocean diver and a 4 dive open water are both completely lacking in that. A 40 dive OD or OW diver generally will be far better. Agency doesn't come in to it from what i see on a daily basis here.
ChristianG
04-03-2010, 15:25
Agreed. Having prestigious tekkie courses is a nice thing to have, but they aren't core business[1]. We have other things that ought to take priority for the limited resources available.
Now there's a thought, and it has nothing to do with "prestigious tekkie" at all.
The commercial agencies, many of them anyway, "pad out" their courses to a ridiculous degree. For example Entry Level photographic course anyone? If anyone approaches me with something like that (with due respect to the Instructors of that kind of thing, Maria M springs to mind) I would tell them to go away and take pictures, then come back and, ever so kindly of course, I'd rip them to shreds. Last time I looked it was called "Learning by Experience", and that's something the BSAC is already particularly good at.
Most divers don't go beyond OW, maybe SD, and if they're in the latter league they would already know (hopefully so anyway) what's what.
My point? The BSAC doesn't have a multitude of beginner courses and that is one thing that could be promulgated. I mean "Advanced Buoyancy" or whatever it's called fer crissake! The BSAC fixes that perfectly adequately with weekly pool sessions and mentoring. Mentoring, never mind the "beard, pipe and pint" allegations, mentoring is where the BSAC, above everything else, is light years ahead of the game.
With a small subheading of "Less is More". Hmmmmmmmm - that rolls (rather) trippingly off the tongue and is pretty well dateless. Have I, in the heat of the keyboard (sorry), perhaps come up with a pretty good strap line?
Strap lines, of necessity, have to be dateless, something that cannot be said for the current one employed by the BSAC. For example the Audi strap line "Vorsprung durch Technik" (Advancement through Technology) is just such a one.
ChristianG
04-03-2010, 15:30
What makes a diver is experience through diving.
Which is why I said (my emphasis) and amid other qualifications:
they are largely a lot better trained at whatever experience level
Richard Whitcombe
04-03-2010, 15:37
Which is why I said (my emphasis) and amid other qualifications:
OK. After that clairification i now disagree entirely with your post as it is at direct odds to what i witness most days :)
Having seen entry level training from a couple of organisations, I don't think the course content at entry level is at all a problem.Agreed.
PADI have it off down pat and TBH, I don't think BSAC can compete with this.PADI have PADI off pat. Can BSAC compete, as in offering the same experience as PADI, no absolutely not. Can BSAC compete, as in providing a viable alternative, yes I believe they absolutely can.
For a newbie diver, it takes dedication from them to stick with the club system and so you end up with disenchanted divers, especially when they meet mates who have done an OW course in a few days.When you say 'The club system' I presume you mean, the delivery of entry level training in Clubs.
People just don't want to hear that "if you stick at it we might get you in the water in 5 months". Enthusiastic learners want to get the theory done and get in the water and stay enthusiastic.Yep. The delivery process does not match the needs of the customer or the needs of the volunteer workforce that serve them. Hardly surprising when just about every change to the DTP for the last 15 years has demanded more commitment from trainees and instructors alike.
Sure, the pool training will always take 6 to 8 weeks at 1 hour a week. I have never found that to be a big problem though. Many branches have already switched to 2hr and 1/2 day pool bookings to reduce costs anyhow. It's the speed of open water training that causes the enthusiasm to be drained away. Sitting around waiting for instructors to become available. Just go look at the posts by Micromouse elsewhere on the forum. That disenchantment is repeated often and at all stages of BSAC training. It is no less disenchanting for the instructors that have to watch it happening.
So what is to stop us pulling out a blank bit of paper and re-writing the delivery process to suit what the customer wants and a volunteer work force can deliver?
Let's concentrate on getting these qualified divers into the club system. That's where the money is.What is so special about qualified divers? If we have decided we can not train entry level divers and have nothing worth offering, why do we think we can train Open Water and Advanced Open Water divers any better? Because that is what will happen. If you can tempt a bunch of OWs and AOWs to go diving with your club, they will want to progress to SD and later DL. You swap OD training issues for SD training issues and the bottle neck just moves further up the training ladder. Meanwhile, do you really think that PADI centres are going to sit idly by and watch us poach (who they believe are) their customers? I don't, it makes no commercial sense to do so.
If I had to spell out a single strength of BSAC training it would be the personal attention our trainees receive. A commercial operation simply can not match it. At no time is BSACs unprecedented level of customer attention more desirable than at the entry level. Yet, we keep looking at things from our own perspective as qualified divers, convincing ourselves that it has no value, no one wants it and we can not possibly supply it. Like Gareth said, Brits are very peculiar at times.
To my mind setting out to rely on some sort of “already qualified” diver strategy would be bad news.
It begs the questions: what would such people want to join BSAC for, and why can the organisation not cope with, respond to, or satisfy the most easily pleased group within its sights (brand new trainees)?
Of course there is the view that your local BSAC club could offer the regular diving opportunities that a newly qualified some-other-agency diver can find a little harder to access, and could thrive on this, but this is increasingly one of the areas which non-BSAC clubs, individuals and buddy pairs can most easily move into. It simply is not that difficult to find diving opportunities and I think demand for the DO lead model might actually be decreasing as diving opportunities become easier to access and arrange without affiliation (of whatever sort), especially if that DO lead model is a bit, well, difficult.
If I was a non-BSAC dive business I also think I would find it relatively straightforward to compete with the local BSAC club for dive organisation/club type arrangements, especially if I was being given free reign to have first contact with all new trainees in the area as the BSAC club didn’t do entry level.
Further, and this is meant constructively, I think the older, wiser and more experienced BSACers sometimes forget about those down the ladder - how do the IFC brigade progress without OD trainees, Try-Dives, etc and without such progression who will be providing the SD and above training in 5 or so years? Yes, it’s all very well being an advanced instructor, caught up in the latest Hog-looping/rebreather/expedition diving issues, or perhaps just a little less than excited by the idea of arranging another OD course, but I and my ilk want more trainees, not less…in fact, if I don’t get them, we may as well go to PADI instead…
I agree with much of what Richard seems to me to be saying – as admirable as some clubs/peoples/things are, simply put the BSAC entry level training model is too (potentially) variable, lengthy and inflexible in its delivery.
But - to end on a positive - I am a supporter of BSAC and the club and amateur diving system - the strength of BSAC is its natural or heart felt, rather than paid-for professionalism and the attendant relationships, prolonged-experience, continuity etc.
From what, admittedly little, it's not of value enough to be in the least significant, I've seen of BSAC OW divers they are largely a lot better trained at whatever experience level they have than equivalent training by the commercial Agencies, and I don't care which of those commercial Agencies we're talking about (with the possible, and notable, exception of GUE).Thank you Christian. That's my experience also, BSAC training is respected in every country I have ever dived. Even those places that had no prior experience of BSAC before we got there.
To be clear, I have no issue with instructors teaching commercially and making a buck. Only when they hijack BSACs facilities to try to do it at BSACs expense (my opinion of course) :eek
Mind, I've never seen a GUE-qualified OW diver at all, not to my knowledge anyway.They only just launched an entry courses. I understand an ex BSAC instructor was largely behind the blue print. I have a few issues with the detail of their methods, which promote the agency ideology possibly to the detriment of the trainees interest. But time will tell. They are going after quality over quantity. I have to admire the stand they are making against the, less teaching = cheaper courses = more sales, way of the mainstream entry training business. I do not doubt that they will turn out competent divers and provide an alternative choice to what is already available.
bythesea
04-03-2010, 17:04
"what is BSAC *for*?"
The question is less difficult then you believe, it's main reason for existence is to make UK diving cheap and accessible.
Well....that's why I joined
Nothing's black and white- just shades of grey. You don't drop entry level training, just address the problems with it. You attract qualified divers into the club system cos club diving is brilliant. That's why many UK shops have "clubs" in them- they can see it works too. The problem is a steadily declining membership and it's not one solution or Quick Fix but several things that need to be done simultaneously.
Adrian Kelland
04-03-2010, 18:50
The question is less difficult then you believe, it's main reason for existence is to make UK diving cheap and accessible.
Well....that's why I joined
That's your reason.
I happened to join a club that happened to be affiliated to BSAC. At entry level I would not have cared less if it had been SAA.
It's a harder question because of the various roles BSAC occupies;
National Governing Body (depending on nation)
Training agency
Club support
Member support
These can work against each other. BSAC Direct may be good for BSAC, it may not be good for branches for example.
Adrian
Adrian Kelland
04-03-2010, 18:52
Ow ow ow now the gauge glass is in my eye, there's smoke pouring out of the hole where the face used to be and the needle has embedded itself 6" into the reinforced concrete 10 feet away. It's making a sound like a train whistle and all the local dogs are barking. The mounting screws have melted, the case is starting to slump too and the pipework leading to is is turning cherry red and swelling.
The next set of Council minutes may be a more enjoyable read. ;)
Mike Halligan
04-03-2010, 19:23
The next set of Council minutes may be a more enjoyable read. ;)
Given the nature of Woz's guage, it could prove terminal.:D
These can work against each other. BSAC Direct may be good for BSAC, it may not be good for branches for example. Adrian
Actually I think that BSAC Direct is a good idea. At present I 'want' and choose to be a member of BSAC, but I don't 'need' to be a member of a Branch. If BSAC Direct didn't exist I'm not sure that I would necessarily join a Branch to remain a member. For me personally being a member is a luxury, not a necessity because I've got a wide circle of friends to go diving with, and if I need training I've tended to seek it outside the agency in recent years. I like being a BSAC member, but if Direct closed, it wouldn't necessarily drive me to join a branch. Ten years ago it was a different story, and I needed and wanted to be a Branch Member, so I was.
BSAC Direct is a useful membership retaining device. It's a good solution for divers who work away a lot/overseas and can't make it to club night. Or those divers out of the water, those who don't want to join a branch or those that want to stay affliated but can't afford both Club and HQ Fees. I don't think therefore that Direct is in competition with branches. If you scrapped Direct, I believe that you'd just lose members and not see a corresponding gain in branch members.
Adrian Kelland
04-03-2010, 19:40
Actually I think that BSAC Direct is a good idea. At present I 'want' and choose to be a member of BSAC, but I don't 'need' to be a member of a Branch. If BSAC Direct didn't exist I'm not sure that I would necessarily join a Branch to remain a member. For me personally being a member is a luxury, not a necessity because I've got a wide circle of friends to go diving with, and if I need training I've tended to seek it outside the agency in recent years. I like being a BSAC member, but if Direct closed, it wouldn't necessarily drive me to join a branch. Ten years ago it was a different story, and I needed and wanted to be a Branch Member, so I was.
BSAC Direct is a useful membership retaining device. It's a good solution for divers who work away a lot/overseas and can't make it to club night. Or those divers out of the water, those who don't want to join a branch or those that want to stay affliated but can't afford both Club and HQ Fees. I don't think therefore that Direct is in competition with branches. If you scrapped Direct, I believe that you'd just lose members and not see a corresponding gain in branch members.
Thanks for reinforcing my point Roz. Your example is exactly what I meant. Conflicting interests. BSAC gains, the member gains, a branch (and its members) may lose.
Richard Whitcombe
04-03-2010, 19:48
Im still kind of struggling to see what the point of BSAC direct is. It doesnt allow you to get training, its not a branch where you can go diving and not really sure what benefits at all someone gets out of it. Cant see it in conflict with a branch as as far as i can see it offers nothing that a branch does.
Thanks for reinforcing my point Roz. Your example is exactly what I meant. Conflicting interests. BSAC gains, the member gains, a branch (and its members) may lose.
*Scratch head* Erm, am now confused Adrian. If a member has no intention of joining a branch, therefore how does the branch lose? It was never going to gain because the member wasn't going to join them?
Another point I forgot to mention is that if a Direct Member then finds their circumstances change and they are then able to join a branch, and this make it win-win as everyone gains.
Adrian Kelland
04-03-2010, 20:14
*Scratch head* Erm, am now confused Adrian. If a member has no intention of joining a branch, therefore how does the branch lose? It was never going to gain because the member wasn't going to join them?
If (I did say 'may' in my example) they had no intention, then yes, there is no loss to a branch. However HQ runs it's own branch, that branch is in competition with all other branches, just like they are with each other. In this regard HQ is competing with the branches.
Another point I forgot to mention is that if a Direct Member then finds their circumstances change and they are then able to join a branch, and this make it win-win as everyone gains.
I'm aware of how things can change and that there are many reasons for someone to be a member of any particular organisation.
My original point was to give an example of how the different roles BSAC occupies maycause conflicts of benefit, not to argue that someonedoes or does not benefit.
Adrian
The question is less difficult then you believe
Or perhaps it's more difficult than you believe.
it's main reason for existence is to make UK diving cheap and accessible.
Well, aside from that being so non-specific as to be essentially meaningless, that gives us a club that does nothing but colective bargaining; the DTP is no longer of any use.
But it still doesn't give us very much to convince potential members to part with their hard-earned, unless we can demonstrate either specific, measurable savings or access to things that are otherwise unavailable.
Vic.
Oliver T
05-03-2010, 01:48
otherwise unavailable.
Vic.
Padi clubs might have 7 organised trips a year. To the same usual places most often.
A Bsac club might have ths same and more, but also anyone SD of above actively encouraged to make ad-hoc trips happen as often as possible.
The club I joined has me diving 4 or 5 times more often than the PADI club I was a member/customer of. Not because of organised trips, just through access to people that are committed to diving as often as possible. That is a major benefit BSAC has available to it. A lot could be made of that in any advertising.
Along with wreck histories and stories of bog standard UK diving in our own wonderful Dive mag, rather than the constant glossy desert island destinations it seems to favour. That might help. You'd think it was only foreign holidays and Scotland you could dive in.
Nigel Hewitt
05-03-2010, 07:14
These can work against each other. BSAC Direct may be good for BSAC, it may not be good for branches for example.
I have a suspision that BSAC Direct is the killer.
It leaches off prospective 'branch members' who can stay a member of the old firm without any commitment to or contribution to other members.
It is a money spinner for HQ and helps pay the bills but makes an easy way out for people who have problems with their local branches that neither of them wish to resolve.
I have a suspision that BSAC Direct is the killer.
It leaches off prospective 'branch members' who can stay a member of the old firm without any commitment to or contribution to other members.
It is a money spinner for HQ and helps pay the bills but makes an easy way out for people who have problems with their local branches that neither of them wish to resolve.
I don't have a local branch. And while I dive with a number of people who learned with BSAC, its lack of presence in this region of Sydney has caused them to take up other agency qualifications.
Nevertheless, I'm still happy to support the 'peak' body.
Strike
Strike
David Cowan
05-03-2010, 07:51
..., its lack of presence in this region of Sydney ...
Strike
How about the Sydney Sub Aqua Club (http://www.sydneysubaquaclub.com/)?
How about the Sydney Sub Aqua Club (http://www.sydneysubaquaclub.com/)?
G'Day, Mate. I tried 'clicking on' but it came back as "The page doesn't exist".
Strike
I subsequently tried a cut 'n' paste - and it worked. (At least they apparently meet and dive out of Bazza's shop, so I'll poddle off down there and meet them.)
bythesea
05-03-2010, 08:18
Or perhaps it's more difficult than you believe.
So instead of criticising my response why not try giving us yours?
To me, BSAC is a club designed to make UK diving accessible and affordable, this is a simple concept to understand unless you are determined not to.
This is the reason 90% of our members are in the branch so therefore must be a driving factor.
So what is your answer to the question?
I have a suspision that BSAC Direct is the killer..
Nigel dear, what's the title of this thread? "Making BSAC more accessible". What does BSAC Direct do for a very small number of members?
It leaches off prospective 'branch members' who can stay a member of the old firm without any commitment to or contribution to other members.
Wrong. If someone wants to be a member of a branch they will join a branch. If they are unhappy about a branch, they will either resolve this, move to another one or form their own one. I wish to stay loyal to BSAC and I am not unhappy with a branch. I just don't have time or energy to commit to joining a Branch at present.
It is a money spinner for HQ and helps pay the bills but makes an easy way out for people who have problems with their local branches that neither of them wish to resolve.
I have no idea of the numbers in BSAC Direct, but I suspect it will be small. And if you look at the breakdown, and I am guessing here, I would say that they were all experienced divers. And guessing again, I'd say that they were long time members of BSAC who wish to stay members. If they are long serving experienced members, they'll have done their bit, served their time in the club, and now wish to remain a member without having to feel guilty they are not doing something in the club. Joining Direct means you don't have that pressure applied and it means that BSAC remains accessible to all.
I really can't see new divers joining Direct because as someone pointed out earlier, there are no club nights, there is no diving and no training. So don't diss Direct. It doesn't damage club membership. Get rid of it and you will for sure hurt BSAC membership.
Steve in Sharm
05-03-2010, 10:47
BTS, sorry to hijack your post.
To me, BSAC is a club designed to make UK diving accessible and affordable, this is a simple concept to understand unless you are determined not to.
This is the reason 90% of our members are in the branch so therefore must be a driving factor.
I said this before, and got shot down, but I'll say it again, if only one branch listens then its a start.....
I sit here in Sharm, working for Emperor Divers (for a 2nd time) and prior to that Ocean College - the two largest Brit based diver training centres here.
Time and again I see/hear the following:
"I started with BSAC but they were too slow, here's my cash teach me to dive"
"I started with BSAC but they were too clichy, PADI seems a lot more friendly"
"I started with BSAC but they are only interested in Sports Divers and above so I couldn't get on their trips"
"I started with BSAC but the instructor is too busy teaching others, can I finish my Ocean Diver with you?"
"I'm a PADI diver, I went to my local BSAC club but they said I would have to..... (insert a myriad of things here)"
and so on and so forth.......
Suffice to say, the DC's here in town are only too glad to take the cash off of people already disgruntled with BSAC and teach them a PADI qual that will have them in the water asap.
My proposals to fix this are simple.
1. Get all the required manpower together to fix dates when they are all available for a concerted effort at advertising and running an OD course, we used to do this at my old club twice a year and it worked a treat - we ran a course starting Feb and another starting Sep.
2. Get rid of the cliques, clubs within clubs dont work, they only alienate the rest of the branch.
3. Get branches updated on what EXACTLY is entailed in allowing other agency divers to dive with them, far too often I hear "dinosaur" stories.
4. Once we have this new blood in the branch, dont let it fester, get them involved, O2 courses, Radio, PRM, boat, compressor, you name it, they will then become keen members of the branch and be pestering you to go diving, or even better - organising it themselves.......
Nuff said, for now :cool:
1. Get all the required manpower together to fix dates when they are all available for a concerted effort at advertising and running an OD course, we used to do this at my old club twice a year and it worked a treat - we ran a course starting Feb and another starting Sep.
2. Get rid of the cliques, clubs within clubs dont work, they only alienate the rest of the branch.
3. Get branches updated on what EXACTLY is entailed in allowing other agency divers to dive with them, far too often I hear "dinosaur" stories.
4. Once we have this new blood in the branch, dont let it fester, get them involved, O2 courses, Radio, PRM, boat, compressor, you name it, they will then become keen members of the branch and be pestering you to go diving, or even better - organising it themselves.......
We do every one of those, I'm happy to say :)
Richard Whitcombe
05-03-2010, 11:00
Time and again I see/hear the following:
Hate to admit it but i agree entirely with that list. Its what i hear time and time again here and elsewhere first hand. Ive personally taught people AOW because they couldnt get sport after 14 months, rescue and so on.
Like it or not a large number of clubs are slow, have cliques and dinosaurs are not extinct. Those are big issues. BSAC just isnt welcoming over all to other divers or time efficient for new divers who want to train. Unfortunately although BSAC policy is one thing getting the policy recognised in branches where dinosaurs roam is much harder. The complete lack of any quality assurance at branch level means that a well meaning national policy often isnt applied at branch level.
Hate to say this, but it's been my experience that the clubs that teach the
fastest and get people diving, tend to be the ones that are run by other
agency crossovers who have dual Instructor tickets.
Nothing makes for better time management then being paid for it and once
on that track it makes no odds what agency you are teaching.
I'd like to see time management made a bigger part of the ITS, TBH.
It could make a big difference.
So instead of criticising my response why not try giving us yours?
Because there probably is no answer at this stage; this is a discussion that needs to be conducted.
Until we do that, we end up with lots of factions all trying to make BSAC into something that does their bidding. Each of these factions is pulling in a different direction, and we end up getting nowhere.
To me, BSAC is a club designed to make UK diving accessible and affordable
But is it the concept that every member in BSAC supports? Otherwise, this would just be you trying to impose your own ideas onto everyone else.
And if your view is representative, then BSAC is clearly failing. BSAC does not provide many divers with anything that they could not get elsewhere (hence failing the "accessible" part), and does not create much in the way of discounts for most diving activities (hence failing the "cheap" part). Such benefits are often to be had from local diving clubs - but that is not a BSAC trait.
this is a simple concept to understand unless you are determined not to.
I'm not determined to misunderstand anything - I'm just pointing out that your over-simplified slogan is neither correct nor specific. As such, it also fails to be especially useful. That you misinterpret my comment as some sort of personal slight would appear to indicate a willingness more for point-scoring than for problem resolution...
This is the reason 90% of our members are in the branch so therefore must be a driving factor.
Is BSAC the reason those members are in your branch, or is it the fact that it is a local diving club? In other words, if the club existed, identical in every way except for its allegiance to BSAC, would your members suddenly become massively disenchanted and leave, or would they carry on pretty much as they do now?
So what is your answer to the question?
I don't have an answer. Increasingly, I find that BSAC *has* no purpose; what was initially set up as a means to promote diving has lately become a system to prevent diving. And whilst we have this mindset that everyone around us needs to be controlled, BSAC is destined for failure - such control freakery only thrives inside totalitarianism, and we're not there yet.
It is my earnest hope that future BSAC management will always have the question "who will this help?" at the forefront of their minds when taking any decisions, but it is the evidence of recent events that this frequently gets forgotten.
Vic.
"I started with BSAC but they were too slow, here's my cash teach me to dive"
Again, this comes down to "what is BSAC for?".
If we want to be a training agency, we need to put some effort into training. There is clearly a problem with delivery - if this is what we want to do, we need to fix that problem, and pronto. Good reputations take a long time to build, and we've already got a bad one in terms of delivery of trainig.
"I started with BSAC but they were too clichy, PADI seems a lot more friendly"
You can't prevent cliques within social organisations - it just isn't possible. But we could put in place mechanisms to bypass those cliques.
"I started with BSAC but they are only interested in Sports Divers and above so I couldn't get on their trips"
Again, what is BSAC for? If it is to engage ODs, then why aren't we organising stuff - on a regional/national level - to prevent the behaviour of any particular group harming the repoutation of the whole?
As an aside, I think the current restrictions on ODs are inappropriate. They are trained divers - they ought to be able to go diving without a bazillion rules and regulations. Let them plan their own dives, run it past someone to make sure they're not doing something stupid, then go diving. Branches should be there to support their members - even the ODs - not try to control them.
"I started with BSAC but the instructor is too busy teaching others, can I finish my Ocean Diver with you?"
Delivery. Again.
"I'm a PADI diver, I went to my local BSAC club but they said I would have to..... (insert a myriad of things here)"
There are many reasons why this happens, none of them pretty.
I suspect that the root of almost all the problems we've got is one simple conflict: we seem to have fixated on diver training (and specifically initial diver training) as our core raison d'etre, yet we also have restrictions on the delivery of that training such that many (most?) clubs seem unable to deliver that training within a timescale that new members deem appropriate.
If we continue to value such training above other activities - and that is a perfectly reasonable thing to do - we *need* to do something about delivery. Whether that means enabling more people to assist in the training worload (as used to be the case, and very successful), or whether we need to find ways for regional activities to augment in-branch training, it is clear that the current situation is untenable; we either need to change our focus, or we need to start evaluating our achievements against our goals, and put in some sort of corrective mecahnism for where we fall short.
Vic.
1. Get all the required manpower together to fix dates when they are all available for a concerted effort at advertising and running an OD course, we used to do this at my old club twice a year and it worked a treat - we ran a course starting Feb and another starting Sep.
This is a significant problem for many branches IMHO. When you want to learn to dive, you want to start next week, not next February or October. You also want it to finish in time for whatever holiday you have.
I actually think BSAC need to consider themselves as two animals. The first, localised and brach orientated, is to just go diving. Get people in the water, week in week out.
The second is a training mentality where students courses are broken down into chunks, and they can do chunk 1 with one branch, chunk 2 with another branch. This would enable students to complete their courses a great deal more quickly, in a time frame convenient to themselves, and would also give the students exposure to several branches, allowing them to pick the best one for them. This would also kill off the crap branches and encourage those that are welcoming,open, active and effective. I've joined branches that hardly ever dive, never mind train, and at the other end of the scale you get places like Eastbourne, who rarely get out of the bloody water, and then only to arrange the next dive, and welcome everyone from TDI and IANDT to GUE.
What GUE is have a list on a central websites of all their courses, along with start dates and instructors. Students can then pick the most appropriate course for them. If they want to wait a little longer for a specific instructor (or branch) then they can do, otherwise they pick the one that suits the best.
I could see BSAC doing something similar with modulised OD and SD courses, just as it does for it's IFCs etc.
Just a thought.
This is a significant problem for many branches IMHO. When you want to learn to dive, you want to start next week, not next February or October. You also want it to finish in time for whatever holiday you have.
Yep.
The second is a training mentality where students courses are broken down into chunks, and they can do chunk 1 with one branch, chunk 2 with another branch.
We sort of have something like that already; to formalise it into an "a la carte" training scheme for initial training would probably cause more problems than it would solve...
This would also kill off the crap branches
Rough as it might sound, I think this is essential. We need evolutionary pressure to improve certain branches; failure to do so will cause (is causing?) problems for the entire ogranisation.
What GUE is have a list on a central websites of all their courses, along with start dates and instructors. Students can then pick the most appropriate course for them. If they want to wait a little longer for a specific instructor (or branch) then they can do, otherwise they pick the one that suits the best.
Absent a centralised control over when branches run courses (which we simpy could not do), this would require individual branches to put their details up. But they don't. We already have a mechanism for such trainind trading to occur - nobody uses it.
Vic.
We sort of have something like that already; to formalise it into an "a la carte" training scheme for initial training would probably cause more problems than it would solve...
Why. My job is to question why businesses are using tired old practices. It's nearly always because people say "oh it would be a nightmare changing it and would probably never work", without any details. quite often, there is no nightmare, just a fear of one. you sort of "dont" have it if people are not using it.
Absent a centralised control over when branches run courses (which we simpy could not do), this would require individual branches to put their details up. But they don't. We already have a mechanism for such trainind trading to occur - nobody uses it.
Vic.
Again, why. St john ambulance managed to do exactly this, and they are 97% volunteer. They went, in two years from a paper based system where no county talked to another county, and there was hundreds of years of mistrust, to a system run by the counties, but all stored centrally, so that you can book a first aid course anywhere in the country from anywhere else in the country. They inform their NHQ at the beginning of the year of all the course elements they are running and when, and these are all put onto a website so that people can either register for a course there, or call the county direct and register. Believe me, they are a far far more fuddy-duddy organsiation that BSAC.
So it becomes a condition of being a branch of BSAC. all course elements are centrally registered, and people can join the course elements either locally or through a web portal.
ChristianG
05-03-2010, 12:58
So it becomes a condition of being a branch of BSAC (that) all course elements are centrally registered, and people can join the course elements either locally or through a web portal.
(My emphasis). (My correction).
Now that makes a certain amount of sense, to me at least. Yes, I can see certain practical difficulties (an Instructor commits and then becomes ill for example) but it surely would be a better, read more efficient, way than the current haphazard methods?
Good word that in this context, haphazard, I would have thought.
Edit/: The BSAC, despite the current controversy, arguably does better, more comprehensive, training than pretty well anyone (that I know of), except perhaps GUE but that's speculation on my part. Partly that's because the Instructors are volunteers and there is undeniably a gulf, however small, between those that do it for a living and those that do it for the love of it. A job, is a job, is a job, or at least soon will be.
Steve in Sharm
05-03-2010, 13:13
Again, this comes down to "what is BSAC for?".
If we want to be a training agency, we need to put some effort into training. There is clearly a problem with delivery - if this is what we want to do, we need to fix that problem, and pronto. Good reputations take a long time to build, and we've already got a bad one in terms of delivery of training.
We have a fantastic DTP, the powerpoints, the student workbooks are all good - where we are lacking is in a professional attitude in the delivery of these materials, I noted you used the word "probably" a lot in your responses to myself and Garf, I believe this is because you haven't tried to tie down OD training into a smaller, compact, time framed delivery - we did, and so have others, and it does work if you can get commitment from your branch instructors to work that little bit harder for the club from say Feb-Apr, this then frees them up to enjoy themselves during the summer months.
As an aside, I think the current restrictions on ODs are inappropriate. They are trained divers - they ought to be able to go diving without a bazillion rules and regulations. Let them plan their own dives, run it past someone to make sure they're not doing something stupid, then go diving. Branches should be there to support their members - even the ODs - not try to control them.
I dont think they are, remember, a newly qualified PADI diver is still going to be following a guide around on holiday until he/she has a bit more experience under them -thats not too dissimilar to BSACs "under supervision".
There are many reasons why this happens, none of them pretty.
I suspect that the root of almost all the problems we've got is one simple conflict: we seem to have fixated on diver training (and specifically initial diver training) as our core raison d'etre, yet we also have restrictions on the delivery of that training such that many (most?) clubs seem unable to deliver that training within a timescale that new members deem appropriate.
If we continue to value such training above other activities - and that is a perfectly reasonable thing to do - we *need* to do something about delivery. Whether that means enabling more people to assist in the training worload (as used to be the case, and very successful), or whether we need to find ways for regional activities to augment in-branch training, it is clear that the current situation is untenable; we either need to change our focus, or we need to start evaluating our achievements against our goals, and put in some sort of corrective mecahnism for where we fall short.
Vic.[/QUOTE]
I believe the problem is not having a professional attitude to this delivery, simple, and it then rubs off onto delivery of SD etc etc. We need to remember that once the new member is trained up and effectively hooked into the BSAC system, they will want to help out, they will want to help marshall a boat if they cant dive that weekend, they will want to do O2 courses etc etc.
This is a significant problem for many branches IMHO. When you want to learn to dive, you want to start next week, not next February or October. You also want it to finish in time for whatever holiday you have.
I disagree, most people will want to learn to dive so that they can go for a fundive when they are on the summer holidays, therefore a course starting in Feb/Mar is ideal for them, others may have had a try dive on holiday and have later decided they would like to learn properly, so for them a course starting in Sep/Oct is ideal - there is also the added bonus that if your branch has instructors who commit to the two course periods you may have other instructors that are now free and can take up and slackers or new recruits.
The second is a training mentality where students courses are broken down into chunks, and they can do chunk 1 with one branch, chunk 2 with another branch. This would enable students to complete their courses a great deal more quickly, in a time frame convenient to themselves, and would also give the students exposure to several branches, allowing them to pick the best one for them. This would also kill off the crap branches and encourage those that are welcoming,open, active and effective. I've joined branches that hardly ever dive, never mind train, and at the other end of the scale you get places like Eastbourne, who rarely get out of the bloody water, and then only to arrange the next dive, and welcome everyone from TDI and IANDT to GUE.
What GUE is have a list on a central websites of all their courses, along with start dates and instructors. Students can then pick the most appropriate course for them. If they want to wait a little longer for a specific instructor (or branch) then they can do, otherwise they pick the one that suits the best.
I could see BSAC doing something similar with modulised OD and SD courses, just as it does for it's IFCs etc.
Just a thought.
and not a bad one, but would need branches to be a little more proactive and cooperative - two words I dont really remember from my time as a DO.
Regards
Steve
So it becomes a condition of being a branch of BSAC. all course elements are centrally registered, and people can join the course elements either locally or through a web portal.
Err you do know that the vast majority join a club first and BSAC second.
Many are happy to help out in there own club, but it's entirely unrealistic
to think that they'd help out on a National basis.
Thats coming from someone who does exactly that on the ITS events BTW.
We have a fantastic DTP, the powerpoints, the student workbooks are all good
No-one's said any different...
where we are lacking is in a professional attitude in the delivery of these materials
Oooh. That's a rather pointy adjective, don't you think?
Calling others "unprofessional" is unlikely to resolve much...
I noted you used the word "probably" a lot in your responses to myself and Garf
No, I didn't. I didn't use the word "probably" at all. That was deliberate.
I believe this is because you haven't tried to tie down OD training into a smaller, compact, time framed delivery
Your belief is wrong.
I couched my responses in terms that avoided certainty because, although I know what I have seen on my travels, I do not claim to have seen all of - or even the majority of - behaviour within the BSAC system. It would be simply incorrect for me to claim certainty over such things when I haven't experienced a sufficiently significant range of them.
I dont think they are, remember, a newly qualified PADI diver is still going to be following a guide around on holiday until he/she has a bit more experience under them -thats not too dissimilar to BSACs "under supervision".
A PADI OW can go diving with another PADI OW without a dive guide - they do. A BSAC OD cannot go diving without a BSAC OD without other people being involved.
I believe the problem is not having a professional attitude to this delivery
I believe that claiming people are not acting professionally will have a detrimental effect on their willingness to volunteer.
Vic.
Err you do know that the vast majority join a club first and BSAC second.
Many are happy to help out in there own club, but it's entirely unrealistic
to think that they'd help out on a National basis.
Thats coming from someone who does exactly that on the ITS events BTW.
Actually, I'm not convinced they do. You constantly hear people talking about "joining BSAC" and "crossing over to BSAC". People constantly asking on YD if someone knows a "good BSAC branch" in a particular area. Perhaps this is where the confusion lies.
Why. My job is to question why businesses are using tired old practices.
Questioning is good. But it doesn't mean that everything must change as soon as the question is asked; sometimes, "tired old practices" are actually more effective than bright new ideas. And sometimes they aren't.
Again, why. St john ambulance managed to do exactly this, and they are 97% volunteer.
What do SJA offer that BSAC cannot?
Affiliation with SJA is a benefit in its own right; the same cannot currently be said for BSAC. As such, SJA has an enforcement capability that BSAC doesn't.
They went, in two years from a paper based system where no county talked to another county, and there was hundreds of years of mistrust, to a system run by the counties, but all stored centrally, so that you can book a first aid course anywhere in the country from anywhere else in the country.
The mechanisms are the simple bit - I could have a system up and running for BSAC by this time next week. But without adequate motivation for branches to aprticipate in such a system, it will lack content. that means that it will lack users, and that will perpetuate the lack of content.
Believe me, they are a far far more fuddy-duddy organsiation that BSAC.
The problem isn't who is more "fuddy duddy"; the reason this won't currently work within the BSAC framework is that this is all cost to the branches, with little or no accompanying benefit. Without some significant changes to our organisation, I am confident it will not succeed. And if we're making significant changes, there are probably more important avenues to progress first...
So it becomes a condition of being a branch of BSAC. all course elements are centrally registered, and people can join the course elements either locally or through a web portal.
See, that's just a demand. Branches will either ignore it, or (in the extreme) remove themselves from the BSAC fold. The threat of excommunication just isn't a big enough stick ;-(
Vic.
Manpower & delivery have always been an issue.
My branch is a 'training branch', that is we have the facilites in place 12 months of the year to teach diving, & a good commited instructor base.
Over the years we have done 'weekend' courses, & the more traditional week by week method. We are again back to the week by week method, because ultimately the students can't commit to fixed weekends. The last time we did this we had eight instructors, a pool, a classroom & 2 of the 9 students, its just not practical. Similarly, people want to start now, not when we schedule courses. We run two courses a year, autumn & winter. On every course, we have people joining partway through, because thats when they want to do it, not wait for the next scheduled course.
This was the same problem for the school that I used to help out at. The number of times I turned up to take students for openwater lessons, to find no student was beyond belief.
(I do remember a certian individual in Sharm orgainising to run a course for someone who had a 'problem branch'. Who had been waiting months to do an open water lesson. Then, a followup posting, the student had failed to show, result a weekend of zero earnings).
We have a trip to Plymouth at the end of the month for OD's, & SD's (less than 6 months experience). We now have two boats & & 3 SD's attending, the balance has been made up from the rest of the branch. Why, I don't know, we had the same issue in the middle of July, & in August.
The trips where booked in consultation with the newer members for dates of their choosing. But the pressure on time, cost & family means that they have progressivley dropped out. Luckily, we have others champing at the bit to go, so we have full boats, but it doesn't fill the objective of taking newer members diving :(.
This just demonstrates the problems. A lot of it is that any coastal trip is a major expedition, be they day, weekend or week trips.
Commitment & manpower are a never ending issue when attempting to deliver training.
Gareth
Steve in Sharm
05-03-2010, 14:48
Oooh. That's a rather pointy adjective, don't you think?
Calling others "unprofessional" is unlikely to resolve much...
I believe that claiming people are not acting professionally will have a detrimental effect on their willingness to volunteer.
You may be right, unfortunately!! But, if you volunteer to do anything you should do so to the best of your ability. These days the words amateur & professional dont have the same meanings behind that as they did years ago in that one was paid and the other free, they now relate to your attitude to the task at hand as well, you can either do something in an amateurish manner, or, you give it a 100% professional attitude and get it right!
No, I didn't. I didn't use the word "probably" at all. That was deliberate.
My apologies, you used it once, dont know why I then saw it again :confused:
A PADI OW can go diving with another PADI OW without a dive guide - they do. A BSAC OD cannot go diving with a BSAC OD without other people being involved.
True. Yes PADI OW's can, they dont though, they get taught throughout their training that they should get experience before branching out, maybe get theor AOW first etc etc.
Wrong, I often see newly qualified BSAC OD's out here on holiday, some diving unguided off of the local house reef.
Anyway, we digress.
We need to get the delivery of the DTP right, if this means expecting more/better from our volunteers then so be it, at least it will weed out the half hearted ones!!
These new divers will become SDs, then DLs, OWIs DOs etc etc. Fixing a problem from the bottom up is much easier and more beneficial to do from the bottom up instead of top down (think damp courseing a house, you wouldn't fix the wet/rotten stuff before you fixed the rising damp first would you).
Regards
Steve
Richard Whitcombe
05-03-2010, 16:24
Calling others "unprofessional" is unlikely to resolve much...
True and some people don't take criticism very well but brutally i think he's correct. Like it or not BSAC is competing with professional instructors and schools of other agencies and poor time management, poor scheduling, failing to live up to the promises etc are a big issue. Yes people are volunteers and yes there are plenty of excuses and reasons for not doing things in a timely manner but ultimately it just makes it more likely people are going to go elsewhere.
Steve does have a point that when you work for this you get a good grasp of time management as you have to. The BSAC ITS generally doesnt emphasise this much if at all. Ive witnessed some people getting into for a pool lesson of 1hr some 35 mins into the session due to faffing around and various other things. It is still amateur and it does affect the perception and delivery of BSAC courses.
The BSAC ITS generally doesnt emphasise this much if at all. Ive witnessed some people getting into for a pool lesson of 1hr some 35 mins into the session due to faffing around and various other things. It is still amateur and it does affect the perception and delivery of BSAC courses.
When I did the (then) Club Instructor course it was emphasised that if I stood on the pool side talking for more than 3 minutes I should be in the classroom not the pool, i.e. not to wast pool time talking. I still follow this philosophy even when doing open water lessons.
Edward
bythesea
05-03-2010, 17:41
I have to say Vic, your way of dissecting everything to the nth degree is very productive, we should have this sorted in no time....
You are right though, our little club would carry on regardless of affiliation with BSAC or not, In fact I do think from time to time, and this is one of those times, we would do better and attract more members if we dropped BSAC from the name of the club as it can put people off.
I have not know it to be an inducement, no one ever told me, I am first point of contact, that they specifically wanted to join a BSAC club, only that they wanted to join a dive club.....hmmmm....interesting.....
I will go and ponder on this a little more
Mike Halligan
05-03-2010, 19:00
*Scratch head* Erm, am now confused Adrian. If a member has no intention of joining a branch, therefore how does the branch lose? It was never going to gain because the member wasn't going to join them?
I appreciate your dismay, but I do understand Adrian's point.
The simple fact is that every March I look at my bank :o then at the offer from my branch :mad: and finally at the offer from BSAC Direct :confused: . Finances are eye-wateringly tight due to the incompetence of a certain insurance giant who changed its name last year, so my choices seem just 2-fold (BSAC Direct or pack in) and packing in looks unlikely. :eek:
In my present case, frequently for many other people I understand, BSAC Direct offers a half-way house between Branch membership and giving up diving altogether. I must now contrast the extra £10 that Direct will cost with the Branch subs about to be demanded. Ah well, that didn't take long, so can I afford the £55 BSAC will take in April?
Another point I forgot to mention is that if a Direct Member then finds their circumstances change and they are then able to join a branch, and this make it win-win as everyone gains.
If my circumstances should change, and I guess I shall eventually find someone in the investment managers in possession of a grey cell, then I still have my quals and, so long as I remain in Direct, I can still go to Orkney in August and the Red Sea in February :D :D :D I share Adrian's view, Direct seems to me a threat to Branch survival, rather than a lifeboat for Branch members.
Mike
Glass half-empty? half-full?
Nah, I've a spare glass on the window-sill.
Mike Halligan
05-03-2010, 19:10
When I did the (then) Club Instructor course it was emphasised that if I stood on the pool side talking for more than 3 minutes I should be in the classroom not the pool, i.e. not to wast pool time talking. I still follow this philosophy even when doing open water lessons.
Edward
100% agree, but sadly that doesn't seem to be the way of things now. I see briefs and debriefs shattering the 80/20 rule, never mind 'our' target total, 5 minutes out of 60.
Shall we start a campaign to "bring back the CI" ? :D :D
bythesea
05-03-2010, 19:12
Just a thought, why are there no paying advertisers on here?
Money in the bank for little effort and it could be reinvested to upgrade this forum to stop it leaking spam, there by giving the admin boys some of their life back.
OK, I've sat back for a while and read the posts / comments / suggestions.
I think there may be a bit of a perspective issue, many of the suggestions seem to be about 'proposals' directed at club committees and not BSAC as a whole.
After all many point out that Rules and Objectives which are to become mandatory will 'ruin' what BSAC is all about.
However as 'independent clubs' you may or may not want to attract new members, be they 'newbies' who have never dived before but want to, or other agency divers who want to develop or just dive, so, as a suggestion, to those who may think it relevant, and to be ignored by those who would rather not take interest (think its daft):
What about a 'rule' (within the club) that all new members be trained to OD within a set time period, or a pack between instructors that they will hold OD courses bi-monthly. That way a new member (of the newbie type) knows what they are getting when they pay the BSAC membership and subs to the club.
I feel that one fear Newbies have about BSAC is that they can fork out say £55 for membership followed by £250 subscription to the club (possibly by DD or up front) and then they are reliant on 'unpaid' 'amateur' instructors to get them in the water. For me it looks as though £240 to the 'professional', commercial organisation which basically guarantees that you will be diving with your mates within a month, is the most attractive offer.
Just a thought, and one reason why most of my mates went PADI, when I told them of the wonders of UK diving.
bythesea
05-03-2010, 20:46
Ah..Mr Gasgow, did you get lost on Wednesday? ;)
Ah..Mr Gasgow, did you get lost on Wednesday? ;)
Sorry Paul, ment to drop you a line!
Got held up with work and ended up having a beer with my old man! (Tartan army men and it was our new managers first game)
I will be down this Wednesday, without fail!
Mike Halligan
06-03-2010, 14:04
Addendum to previous post:
Of course had a non-member bunking-in on a club trip been known to be a non-member, unable to pass himself off and thus refused, I'd not have been ripped of to the tune of more than my Branch stipend for the coming year!
I feel that one fear Newbies have about BSAC is that they can fork out say £55 for membership followed by £250 subscription to the club (possibly by DD or up front) and then they are reliant on 'unpaid' 'amateur' instructors to get them in the water. For me it looks as though £240 to the 'professional', commercial organisation which basically guarantees that you will be diving with your mates within a month, is the most attractive offer.
Just a thought, and one reason why most of my mates went PADI, when I told them of the wonders of UK diving.
Yep and that's why in our club we actually guarantee a diver cert within
6 months on the simple proviso that they turn up.
I actually think its morally wrong to take money for training if you havnt
got the infrastructure to train within (at the very least) that year of
membership.
Dave Whitlow
06-03-2010, 16:35
I actually think its morally wrong to take money for training if you havnt got the infrastructure to train within (at the very least) that year of
membership. Surely that depends whether you are a diving club or a diver training club. We are diving club and people join to go diving.
If someone wants to join the club and we are unable to train them at the time I would expalin the situation to them, advise them to seek an initial course elsewhere and then come diving with us.
We, like most branches, have new members joining at various times. When we get sufficient numbers we run a course. We try to encourage new divers to join at the same time but it doesn't always work out that way. Existing divers may wait a little while to continue their training but can come diving with us.
In the ideal world we'd have a predictable intake of new members at set times in the year and structure our training programme around that. However, most of us don't live in that ideal world and need to be a little more pragmatic and take new members when we can get them.
ChristianG
06-03-2010, 16:43
In the ideal world we'd have a predictable intake of new members at set times in the year and structure our training programme around that. However, most of us don't live in that ideal world and need to be a little more pragmatic and take new members when we can get them.
In the ideal world? Yes, just like Terry's Uni Club. Uni Clubs have a particularly good idea of the next influx of potential divers.
Surely that depends whether you are a diving club or a diver training club. We are diving club and people join to go diving.
If someone wants to join the club and we are unable to train them at the time I would expalin the situation to them, advise them to seek an initial course elsewhere and then come diving with us.
We, like most branches, have new members joining at various times. When we get sufficient numbers we run a course. We try to encourage new divers to join at the same time but it doesn't always work out that way. Existing divers may wait a little while to continue their training but can come diving with us.
In the ideal world we'd have a predictable intake of new members at set times in the year and structure our training programme around that. However, most of us don't live in that ideal world and need to be a little more pragmatic and take new members when we can get them.
I dont think it makes any difference what type of club you are as long as
what is on offer is explained clearly at the start. Funnily enough there is
an association with BSAC being a way to go diving and for an enthusiatic
newbie that means being trained. I know of and I bet you do too, of new
divers being taken on by clubs who have no way of training them within
a reasonable period of time.
We are not talking about a club who has a quarterly training regime, but
one that is actually unable or unwilling at that moment to train, yet still
takes the money. That's morally wrong and the kind of practice that gets
BSAC a bad name.
As for being a Uni club, well yes that's true, but we'll train any grade at
any time, even if its just one person and still manage to rack up some serious
diving, so dont see the training or diving club as a factor, its more that uni
clubs have more of an incentive to get trained faster, because we only have
6 months of the year to do it.
Surely that depends whether you are a diving club or a diver training club. We are diving club and people join to go diving.
If someone wants to join the club and we are unable to train them at the time I would expalin the situation to them, advise them to seek an initial course elsewhere and then come diving with us.
We, like most branches, have new members joining at various times. When we get sufficient numbers we run a course. We try to encourage new divers to join at the same time but it doesn't always work out that way. Existing divers may wait a little while to continue their training but can come diving with us.
In the ideal world we'd have a predictable intake of new members at set times in the year and structure our training programme around that. However, most of us don't live in that ideal world and need to be a little more pragmatic and take new members when we can get them.
Hi Dave (&Christian),
I think Terry was replying directly, therefore his point is valid.
It is moraly wrong to take money from Newbies unless you can deliver training.
In your case Dave you state that you don't want 'Newbies' so its not really the same arguement!
OK, I've sat back for a while and read the posts / comments / suggestions.
I think there may be a bit of a perspective issue, many of the suggestions seem to be about 'proposals' directed at club committees and not BSAC as a whole.
After all many point out that Rules and Objectives which are to become mandatory will 'ruin' what BSAC is all about.
However as 'independent clubs' you may or may not want to attract new members, be they 'newbies' who have never dived before but want to, or other agency divers who want to develop or just dive, so, as a suggestion, to those who may think it relevant, and to be ignored by those who would rather not take interest (think its daft):
What about a 'rule' (within the club) that all new members be trained to OD within a set time period, or a pack between instructors that they will hold OD courses bi-monthly. That way a new member (of the newbie type) knows what they are getting when they pay the BSAC membership and subs to the club.
I feel that one fear Newbies have about BSAC is that they can fork out say £55 for membership followed by £250 subscription to the club (possibly by DD or up front) and then they are reliant on 'unpaid' 'amateur' instructors to get them in the water. For me it looks as though £240 to the 'professional', commercial organisation which basically guarantees that you will be diving with your mates within a month, is the most attractive offer.
Just a thought, and one reason why most of my mates went PADI, when I told them of the wonders of UK diving.
Dave Whitlow
06-03-2010, 20:00
Hi Dave (&Christian),
I think Terry was replying directly, therefore his point is valid.
It is moraly wrong to take money from Newbies unless you can deliver training.
If they they are told they will get trained and it doesn't happen then I agree. However, if they join and willing to wait I don't see a problem.
In your case Dave you state that you don't want 'Newbies' so its not really the same arguement! :o That wasn't quite how I intended it to sound. It isn't that we don't want 'newbies' only that, with few active instructors, it can prove hard to maintain the momentum of training. Therefore, in the current climate I'd rather people join who can come diving with us so the onward training can be done over a longer period.
If they they are told they will get trained and it doesn't happen then I agree. However, if they join and willing to wait I don't see a problem.
:o That wasn't quite how I intended it to sound. It isn't that we don't want 'newbies' only that, with few active instructors, it can prove hard to maintain the momentum of training. Therefore, in the current climate I'd rather people join who can come diving with us so the onward training can be done over a longer period.
Wires crossed here! I was, and I think most of the previous posters, were discussing how to raise numbers in the branch to make it stronger, more acepting and more welcoming, as it's a 'constructive thread' about BSAC, I would think that ideas on how to attract members and 'keep them?' Would be of benefit.
If you either don't have the resource, don't want to or would rather send newbies over to PADI on the hope they don't get sucked in then that's up to you (sounds like you've been doing it for a while), however if you want to bring in newbies get them to join an maintain subsciption then starting with unqualified divers and 'selling' them a better prospect than they arebeing offered by the 'competition' would be worthwhile.
Dave Whitlow
06-03-2010, 22:21
(sounds like you've been doing it for a while), No. We've had very few newbies recently and are trying to change that at the moment but people seem just "busy".
however if you want to bring in newbies get them to join an maintain subsciption then starting with unqualified divers and 'selling' them a better prospect than they are being offered by the 'competition' would be worthwhile. If we can't get newbies (we're getting fewer at the moment) we should focus on the crossovers.
As I said at the start of this thread we should improve the "crossover" process to allow divers from other agencies to gain the "equivalent" grade by filling in the gaps, rather than start training for the next grade.
Some of our most active members, myself included, joined as divers trained elsewhere and wanted to go diving and further their skills which is what a BSAC branch does best.
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