Branch Policy on Members Diving with Other BSAC Branches

[richard2338]

Does any BSAC branch out there have a policy on their members diving with other BSAC branches? Do any branches set restrictions on such diving such as insisting members inform their branch D.O. of the diving they intend to do beforehand? This might include one of your sports divers diving with another branch or perhaps a trainee diving with BSAC instructors from elsewhere...
Does your branch D.O. have the final say on who you dive with and can he prevent you 'guest' diving with another branch?

Anybody have any thoughts?

[David Walker]

Does any BSAC branch out there have a policy on their members diving with other BSAC branches? Do any branches set restrictions on such diving such as insisting members inform their branch D.O. of the diving they intend to do beforehand? This might include one of your sports divers diving with another branch or perhaps a trainee diving with BSAC instructors from elsewhere...
Does your branch D.O. have the final say on who you dive with and can he prevent you 'guest' diving with another branch?

Firstly, if any branch I was a member of did try to do something like that I would be straight out of there, no messing about. As far as i'm aware what a diver does outside of the club is of absolutely no concern to the DO, and if it is it shouldn't be! The DO has authority over 'branch dives' - anything else you are free, as a qualified diver, to go off and do.
Our new DO recently sent an e-mail to everyone in the club saying that they had to tell him about every dive they wanted to do, whether that was in the club or not. As a result of that there was a huge amount of confusion in the branch, and actually even if it was fully supported by the full committee (which it wasn't, no one else knew of it til it was sent) it would not have had any affect. Those more experienced members diving with other branches know that it is beyond his 'authority' so to speak, or people diving on holiday wouldn't cancel their holidays because they can't get in touch with the DO. Unfortunately for us it was a case of a new DO jumping in feet first, wanting to do everything properly, and although good intentions it only served to cause confusion with our less experienced divers, and basically for our more experienced divers it really didn't give much confidence in the club.

Let the branch DO stick to dives done within the branch - that is their area, I have full respect for a DO within a branch, but if any DO of any branch tried to tell me what I can and can't do outside of the branch I'd be gone, and I imagine most others would be too

David

[Bill Bird]

Does any BSAC branch out there have a policy on their members diving with other BSAC branches? Do any branches set restrictions on such diving such as insisting members inform their branch D.O. of the diving they intend to do beforehand? This might include one of your sports divers diving with another branch or perhaps a trainee diving with BSAC instructors from elsewhere...
Does your branch D.O. have the final say on who you dive with and can he prevent you 'guest' diving with another branch?

Anybody have any thoughts?

I don't believe anyone has such a thing as restrictions on branch members diving with another branch (providing their fit and are appropriately graded) - I thought that's why we belonged to BSAC, and I've certainly dived with another branch. Others in our branch would have done the same.

Our branch dives should - in the main - be for our branch members - and I'd expect the same from other branches. If we ran a dive and had a "guest" I'd expect the D.O. would only step in where an individual from another branch couldn't prove medical status or wasn't qualified to dive to the expected depth's being dived. This would be BSAC's rules rather than a branch's.

Good question though is what about if the D.O. knew someone from his branch was going on another branch's dive and wasn't currently covered by a medical or wasn't qualified to do the dive plan? If he turned a blind eye and something happened where would the liability lie? With the branch D.O. (for knowing and not saying anything); the other branch's D.O. (for allowing it to take place and not checking); or both jointly? Interesting question?

Regards.


Bill

[Mike Halligan]

Anybody have any thoughts?

(As an AD member) My DO has no say in where and with whom I dive, unless they happen to be other members of the Branch - when he has considerable influence.

(As TO and OWI) My DO tells me what he wants to happen in the Branch within the DTP. He tells me what SDCs he approves and agrees with me how they are to run. he supports every intiative to get people diving safely.

(As an organiser of club trips) My DO is OK about whatever I want to do and encourages me and others to run them, but the committee undermines him. Organisers are not underwritten by the Branch and are nowadays dreadfully exposed. The use of Branch boats is hung with mysterious proviso so much so that I have given up on it.

I arrange trips instead by invitation and with no Branch boat - I thus have a wider pool of participants and no interference.

"I just want to go diving" (that oft-heard plea).

Mike

[Nigel Hewitt]

Good question though is what about if the D.O. knew someone from his branch was going on another branch's dive and wasn't currently covered by a medical or wasn't qualified to do the dive plan? If he turned a blind eye and something happened where would the liability lie? With the branch D.O. (for knowing and not saying anything); the other branch's D.O. (for allowing it to take place and not checking); or both jointly?

OK say I charter a boat, I've done this quite often since way before I joined my local BSAC branch. When it's not full and the day is getting near I post on the internet that I have a space. I get a BSAC diver who emails me, agrees to fill it and sends me a cheque. He mentions it to his DO who, that evening, googles me and discovers what I'm planning is a bit beyond what he would let this guy do.

So here is the DO, sitting at home in front of his computer.
What does he do?

nigelH

[iainmsmith]

Does any BSAC branch out there have a policy on their members diving with other BSAC branches? Do any branches set restrictions on such diving such as insisting members inform their branch D.O. of the diving they intend to do beforehand?
This might include one of your sports divers diving with another branch or perhaps a trainee diving with BSAC instructors from elsewhere...

If you consider it from the perspective of the DO, it is, at the very least, a matter of courtesy to tell him that you'll be diving. If nothing else, in the event of something going wrong, it saves him looking extremely foolish for not knowing that some of "his" divers were in the water when contacted by the press or police.

This is especially true in some Branches, typically university or similarly associated Branches, where the parent organisation wishes to ensure that no adverse publicity is generated. For example, our Societies Syndicate has made it a requirement that the DO is informed of all diving. That way they know that there is a certain amount of oversight of the activities of our members and that they're not going to wake up to see "Cambridge Student Drowns in Diving Accident. University Not Looking After Its Students!" splashed across the front pages.

In terms of external training, given that the DO is ultimately responsible for the quality control of the core DTP training of his Branch members, he needs to know if any outside instruction is planned. For all that having achieved NQI status is suppost to demonstrate a minimum level of competence, most senior divers will admit to knowing certain instructors who they would either not want to have teaching their trainees or of whom they would require direct supervision.

Additionally, you should consider that the BSAC requires Risk Assessments to be conducted for all activities (BOH, para 3.3.3: "With this in mind BSAC require all activities, diving and social, to be assessed for relevant Risks. Whether an activity should proceed shall depend on the judgement of the individual carrying out Risk Assessment(s). It is the Branch
Committee?s responsibility to ensure those carrying out Risk Assessments are adequately qualified to perform this function.")

The Branch Committee can only ensure competence at Risk Assessment of the individual if they know that the activity is taking place. One could reasonably consider that the Committee would choose to delegate that responsibility to the Diving Officer. Potentially, a Branch Committee might choose to delegate the responsibility to the individual members of the Branch, but would need to be prepared to defend this in the event of an incident involving an inexperienced member who chose to go on an external dive which was outside his experience.

Again, a simple courtesy call to the DO to tell him that a given individual is planning to do the specified diving allows him to exercise his Duty of Care by agreeing that this planned dives are appropriate and/or offering advice to ensure that the diver is safe.

Does your branch D.O. have the final say on who you dive with and can he prevent you 'guest' diving with another branch?

Ultimately, no, the DO cannot _prevent_ anyone from guest diving with another Branch. However, in accordance with our Branch Bye-Laws, any dive requiring the use of Branch resources requires the DO's approval and so, with the exception of experienced members who own all of their own equipment, he has a de facto power of veto. If your own Branch's Bye-Laws do not include such a clause then that power may not exist.

Iain

[richard2338]

OK say I charter a boat, I've done this quite often since way before I joined my local BSAC branch. When it's not full and the day is getting near I post on the internet that I have a space. I get a BSAC diver who emails me, agrees to fill it and sends me a cheque. He mentions it to his DO who, that evening, googles me and discovers what I'm planning is a bit beyond what he would let this guy do.

So here is the DO, sitting at home in front of his computer.
What does he do?

Well in that circumstance, perhaps the D.O. could discuss the plan with his own diver.

However the question is, should his control extend to dive trips organised by other branches? When it comes to his divers diving on another branch's trip, shouldn't the D.O. trust that the D.O./ D.M. of the branch organising the trip will ensure it is conducted safely within BSAC recommendations? (Including checking on the 'guest' diver's qualifications/experience and ensuring they dive within their limits).

[MarkA]

:=OK say I charter a boat, I've done this quite often since way before I joined my local BSAC branch. When it's not full and the day is getting near I post on the internet that I have a space. I get a BSAC diver who emails me, agrees to fill it and sends me a cheque. He mentions it to his DO who, that evening, googles me and discovers what I'm planning is a bit beyond what he would let this guy do.
:=
:=So here is the DO, sitting at home in front of his computer.
:=What does he do?

Well in that circumstance, perhaps the D.O. could discuss the plan with his own diver.

However the question is, should his control extend to dive trips organised by other branches? When it comes to his divers diving on another branch's trip, shouldn't the D.O. trust that the D.O./ D.M. of the branch organising the trip will ensure it is conducted safely within BSAC recommendations? (Including checking on the 'guest' diver's qualifications/experience and ensuring they dive within their limits).

Why sould his control extend any further than branch dives.
If all DO s started trying to dictate to other clubs how they conduct themselfs then clubs would soon start to fall out with each other.
Let the DO stick to his own branch dives and stop sticking his nose into the organisation of other branches. What members of a club do in thier own time is up to them and whoever they are diving with.
If a DO of another branch started to question my standards then he would have the big FO

[David Walker]

Ultimately, no, the DO cannot _prevent_ anyone from guest diving with another Branch. However, in accordance with our Branch Bye-Laws, any dive requiring the use of Branch resources requires the DO's approval and so, with the exception of experienced members who own all of their own equipment, he has a de facto power of veto. If your own Branch's Bye-Laws do not include such a clause then that power may not exist.

I think that would be sort of a 'given' anyway - if you're using club kit, the club will always know about it, and if the DO does know about it then they have a responsibility to effectively 'pass judgement' on that dive. If the club is lending someone kit, then that is effectively approving the dive - if they think it is unsafe then I think something would come back to them in the event of an accident.
If people aren't using club kit though, and it isn't a branch dive, then that is something very different. In that case if you don't tell the DO, the DO can't have any responsibility for what you do, and so it's absolutely none of their business.

For example, this summer i've been away from my Uni club, and diving with another club at home. Because the DO at my uni club is a friend I did happen to mention this to him, and so he knows i've been diving with another club - no problem. I was also thinking of doing a dive with another friend from uni, just meet up and get a charter or something. If I happened to talk to the DO before doing that I might have mentioned it, but otherwise I wouldn't have gone out of my way to 'seek permission' from him.
I think the clear difference is that if it isn't a branch dive I would see if very much as "i am doing this" where as a branch dive would be a little more along the lines of "i'm planning on doing this, ok?"


In any case, I think everyone's agreed so far that it isn't any business of the DO what you do outside of their branch. I agree that use of club kit outside of the branch would bring the diver back under branch authority (so to speak). I also fully agree that if you're doing training outside of the branch, you should tell your DO - you can't expect them to sign something saying you are competent based on a few random signatures they know nothing about. Finally people may agree to let the DO know of diving away from the branch, my DO knows about most of what I do because he is a friend and I usually see him at least a couple of times a week, but if I rarely had contact with the DO I wouldn't go out of my way to let him know what I was doing.

David

[Nigel Hewitt]

>>OK say I charter a boat,...

>However the question is, should his control extend to dive trips organised by other branches? When it comes to his divers diving on another branch's trip, shouldn't the D.O. trust that the D.O.

There is nothing that magically makes a DO right other than the fact that he is following the procedures laid down so one DO is, in essence, the same as any other. I suspect that most DOs have enough trouble keeping in touch with their own club dives as people are trying to squeeze things in before the weather turns without worrying about somebody else's.

Annoyingly, since I posted my first response to this thread and this one I have had two people drop out of a trip in early October. I wonder if I'll get any BSAC divers hiding from their DO for an illicit late season splash? Naaah. It's normally the DOs that sneak off for a relaxed "Hey I'm not in charge, what a relief" weekend.

nigelH

[richard2338]

Thanks David (& others). I guess the answer is for each branch to have a clearly defined policy of what constitutes a 'branch dive', and to ensure all their members are aware of this policy.
It is policy within our branch that any dive / diving trip using any club equipment automatically becomes a branch dive.

My original question actually stemmed from a situation where other branch's members had been diving with us, resulting in a few 'political' problems.

[edward haynes]

Richard,

In answer to your question, note the last sentence.

BOH-IE 3.4.8 sub-section ?Visiting or Transferring Member?
Joining the BSAC entails membership of a National Club, not just of a particular Branch. It frequently happens that members of different Branches come together on expeditions and courses or as a result of travelling for business or recreation. All members are free to visit other Branches and to take part in their activities, so long as it is practical and the Branch is prepared to accept them.

The following is intended to give guidance.

A 'Branch Dive'?

BOH-IE 4.5.1 - What is a Branch Dive? The definition is approved by the National Diving Officer (NDO).

"As one that is carried out with the prior knowledge and approval of the Branch Diving Officer."

* The use of Branch equipment cannot be used to justify a 'Branch Dive'. What if an individual used Branch equipment on a Branch Dive one Sunday, takes the equipment home, then goes diving with others (not members of his/her Branch) during the week. From the NDO's definition this is not a Branch Dive, and it doesn?t matter what the Branch Bye-Laws say, the Branch Diving Officer (BDO) is the NDO?s representative and is responsible for all diving matters in a Branch.

Risk Assessments

HQ have approved new guidance of Risk Assessments and the guidance in the BOH-IE (on the Web) is awaiting page replacement, please see the link for the new guidance.


HTH

Edward

[iainmsmith]

A 'Branch Dive'?

BOH-IE 4.5.1 - What is a Branch Dive? The definition is
approved by the National Diving Officer (NDO).

"As one that is carried out with the prior
knowledge and approval of the Branch Diving Officer."

* The use of Branch equipment cannot be used to justify a 'Branch Dive'. What if an individual used Branch equipment on a Branch Dive one Sunday, takes the equipment home, then goes diving with others (not members of his/her Branch) during the week. From the NDO's definition this is not a Branch Dive, and it doesn?t matter what the Branch Bye-Laws say, the Branch Diving Officer (BDO) is the NDO?s representative and is responsible for all diving matters in a Branch.

And how can responsibility for all diving matters in a Branch possibly fail to include all diving activities for which Branch equipment is used? If, for example, there is a kit failure on that "non-Branch" dive which is attributable to failure to maintain the Branch equipment, it's pretty certain that suddenly this "non-Branch" dive is going to have very significant "Branch" implications...and is hence the DO's responsibility.

All IMHO, of course.

Iain

Iain

[David Walker]

And how can responsibility for all diving matters in a Branch possibly fail to include all diving activities for which Branch equipment is used? If, for example, there is a kit failure on that "non-Branch" dive which is attributable to failure to maintain the Branch equipment, it's pretty certain that suddenly this "non-Branch" dive is going to have very significant "Branch" implications...and is hence the DO's responsibility.

I think if you're letting someone go off with club kit for an extended period when they aren't diving with the club, there needs to be some element of trust there that they aren't going to go off and do dives that the DO hasn't approved of, or that they know is beyond their experience.
We generally only let members who've been with the club a while and dived with us quite a bit to go off with club kit. Someone wanted a full set for the summer, she'd been with us for a year and dived quite a lot, told us what she planned to do (basically joined another BSAC club and wanted to do some diving) and we trust that other branch to ensure her safety on their dives. OK she could use the club kit to go off on her own to 80m on air, but we can't keep that much control over our members without seriously restricting what they can do.

David

[edward haynes]

Hi Iain

Hire of Branch equipment (whether charged or not) is a Committee responsibility. Other Branch Committee Members are equally liable as the Branch Diving Officer. The liability is to maintain equipment to be fit for purpose. One way of doing this is to ensure the manufacture's maintenance recommendations are followed.

A member using Branch equipment who doesn't inform the Committee of such use is using it at their own risk.

Your example is on the right track; it's the Branch Committee that would be answerable, but only in relation to:

1. the equipment's maintenance
2. whether the individual was competent to have hired the equipment in the first place.

HTH

Edward

[Brian_C]

Hi just my ten penath but where does a BSAC Direct member stand?? Not Branch therefore NO DO they can dive without the DO say so!!! THe DO should only be responsible for Branch dives. If my DO stopped me diving with other branches outside my own then I for one would walk away.

Brian

[Bill Bird]

Hi just my ten penath but where does a BSAC Direct member stand?? Not Branch therefore NO DO they can dive without the DO say so!!! THe DO should only be responsible for Branch dives. If my DO stopped me diving with other branches outside my own then I for one would walk away.

Brian

I don't think any D.O. would (in fact I'm not certain they even can) stop you from diving with another branch. But if you dive with another branch, even as a Direct Branch member, then I believe you are then under the jurisdiction of that branch's D.O. and branch rules, even as a guest. If that branch's D.O. say's that you can't dive?

[Bill Bird]

Hi just my ten penath but where does a BSAC Direct member stand?? Not Branch therefore NO DO they can dive without the DO say so!!! THe DO should only be responsible for Branch dives. If my DO stopped me diving with other branches outside my own then I for one would walk away.

Brian

I don't think any D.O. would (in fact I'm not certain they even can) stop you from diving with another branch. But if you dive with another branch, even as a Direct Branch member, then I believe you are then under the jurisdiction of that branch's D.O. and branch rules, even as a guest. If that branch's D.O. say's that you can't dive?

[janos]

I thought it was straightforward until reading this thread!

1) Branch dives are those the DO knows about and approves.
2) If DO knows, but does not approve, diver must be informed (preferably in writing to ensure DO's bottom is covered legally. Just be glad we not in the USA)
3) If DO does not know, then it's not a Branch dive and so DO is not responsible.
4) Equipment is irrelevant. If the DO does not know that the dive is going ahead, how can they (or the equipment officer etc etc) have approved (or not) the use of equipment for that dive?

Laters,
Janos

[terryh]

4) Equipment is irrelevant. If the DO does not know that the dive is going ahead, how can they (or the equipment officer etc etc) have approved (or not) the use of equipment for that dive?


So that's the ignorance defence is it?

If the Equipment officer hands out a piece of kit, then there
is absolutely no getting away from the fact that as a club
officer he is aware of the planned dive.
He must either have knowledge of approval from the DO or at
least tell the DO that the dive is going on prior to letting
the kit go.

You can argue the point that as a club member he has the right
to kit on a non-sancioned club dive (we dont BTW), but you cant
argue that the club can be unware of it.

TerryH

[janos]

:=4) Equipment is irrelevant. If the DO does not know that the dive is going ahead, how can they (or the equipment officer etc etc) have approved (or not) the use of equipment for that dive?
:=

So that's the ignorance defence is it?


Terry,

I think we agree! My statement was meant to say that the DO cannot approve equipment for a dive without being aware of the dive. (Ie it's a logical impossibility)

Obviously if the diver actively deceives the DO (by borrowing for another purpose, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread) then the ignorance defence is valid. But I think this is perhaps unlikely.

Laters,
Janos

[Mike Halligan]

:=4) Equipment is irrelevant. If the DO does not know that the dive is going ahead, how can they (or the equipment officer etc etc) have approved (or not) the use of equipment for that dive?
<>
If the Equipment officer hands out a piece of kit, then there
is absolutely no getting away from the fact that as a club
officer he is aware of the planned dive.

Oh yes there is! Awareness depends on the norms of the club. (NB: I wrote "norms" advisedly, I did not write "rules" or "regulations".) You presume that the purpose is declared at the time of issue, that the issue is therefore associated with the planning of a dive. Dangerous ground.

In your circumstances it may be that kit is handed out per dive. In mine, and I suspect others', a full set of serviced kit is handed out just before first OWD and retained until SD qualification.

Others may well loan kit for a season, say from April to October.

He must either have knowledge of approval from the DO or at
least tell the DO that the dive is going on prior to letting
the kit go.

Simply, "No". At least, not in my reality.

You can argue the point that as a club member he has the right
to kit on a non-sancioned club dive (we dont BTW), but you cant
argue that the club can be unware of it.

Again, "No". Each case depends on the specification made at the times of procurement and issue. There may be no right, for example I have no right to Branch OW kit. There may be no fore-knowledge if issue is not associated with use.

In your particular circumstances, you may argue whatever you wish, and I shall care not a jot. You may not, however, apply your argument to my circumstances.

Lighten up, mate, this is supposed to be fun.

Mike

[Nigel Hewitt]

If the Equipment officer hands out a piece of kit, then there is absolutely no getting away from the fact that as a club officer he is aware of the planned dive.

Huh? I hear an equipment officer saying "I must get the X back from Y. They've had it for N weeks/months". It may not be a pick it up Friday evening bring it back Sunday morning implies a dive on Saturday situation. Is this uncommon?

[terryh]

In your particular circumstances, you may argue whatever you wish, and I shall care not a jot. You may not, however, apply your argument to my circumstances.

It's not my argument Mike. It's a one size fits all.

It doesnt matter if it does/doesnt come under club/branch
definitions, is handed out at the beginning of the season/year
or on Friday, bring back Monday.

The equipment officer of your average BSAC club is a committee
appointed representative officer of the club. The act of
handing out the gear facilitates a possible future dive and
stops the club divorcing themselves from responsibilty.

The ONLY way that a club can truly play the ignorance card is
if there is NO tangable club involvment and that clearly
isnt so with club kit.

Or put another way .......

If I hand out unserviced/badly maintained kit, then I have
no responsibilty because the diver is on a "private dive".

Yeah, right!

TerryH

[edward haynes]

Terry

I know (as far as I can read from these posts) that you have an unwavering opinion on this topic, but I believe you are combining the following two topics:

1. A 'Branch Dive' has nothing to do with equipment, it's the approval from the Branch Diving Officer (BDO) that does or doesn't make it so.

2. The Branch Committee's (including the BDO) liability to maintain Branch equipment in a serviceable condition is a totally separate topic.

Just a mere bystander?s opinion.

Edward

[terryh]

Terry

I know (as far as I can read from these posts) that you have an unwavering opinion on this topic, but I believe you are combining the following two topics:

1. A 'Branch Dive' has nothing to do with equipment, it's the approval from the Branch Diving Officer (BDO) that does or doesn't make it so.

2. The Branch Committee's (including the BDO) liability to maintain Branch equipment in a serviceable condition is a totally separate topic.

Just a mere bystander?s opinion.

Edward

I only used it as an example of general club responsibilty.

Bit extreme, but how about this as a defence ......

"Well we lent him a gun, but we didnt think he would shoot
himself"

You can put as many rules, regulations and club bylaws in
the way as you like, but IMO you can NEVER say that the club
was unaware of the potential for misuse once kit was handed
over.

TerryH

[Nigel Hewitt]

Bit extreme, but how about this as a defence ......

"Well we lent him a gun, but we didnt think he would shoot himself"

I'm perplexed. That is such a good defence nobody would question it. I have a gun my brother lent me. If I blew my head off with it he would express surprise, shock even, but since it is all legally held nobody would blame him.

I accept the point that putting club kit in the hands of a member presupposes that they will go diving but if it is done on the understanding that it is for club dives and they abuse that trust I fail to see how the club officers are liable. You are allowed, in law, to make the assumption that people are telling you the truth. In fact to start taking actions that publicly imply they are lying puts you in a very dubious position.

nigelH

[terryh]

I accept the point that putting club kit in the hands of a member presupposes that they will go diving but if it is done on the understanding that it is for club dives and they abuse that trust I fail to see how the club officers are liable.:=

And that has been my point all along. Handing out kit only
makes the club liable if there is no mecanism for checking
how it is used.

You are allowed, in law, to make the assumption that people are telling you the truth. In fact to start taking actions that publicly imply they are lying puts you in a very dubious position.:=

Same again. If they are telling you the truth or porkies, they
are telling you. That means you have been informed as part of
the safety mecanism. Handing out kit without any communication
as to use, would IMO make you liable.

TerryH

[Mike Halligan]

:= In your particular circumstances, you may argue whatever you wish, and I shall care not a jot. You may not, however, apply your argument to my circumstances.

It's not my argument Mike. It's a one size fits all.

It doesnt matter if it does/doesnt come under club/branch
definitions, is handed out at the beginning of the season/year
or on Friday, bring back Monday.

Terry,
You have declared it is "onesize, fits all" and I choose not to accept your declaration. I shall explain why.

The E.O. hands a full set of OW kit to a trainee at the commencement of his/her OW training asking that it be returned when the SD qualification is awarded (norm for the Branch in which I act). When you come up here to inform our E.O. that "there is no getting away from the fact that as a club officer he is aware of the planned dive", may I please watch?

:=The equipment officer of your average BSAC club is a committee
appointed representative officer of the club. The act of
handing out the gear facilitates a possible future dive and
stops the club divorcing themselves from responsibilty.

According to BOH, the E.O. ought be the _appointee_ of the membership-elected D.O. In the Branch in which I act, the E.O. happens to be elected to that office by the membership.

Branches are frequently unicorporated members associations. Can someone be appointed by the committee as a representative officer in a UMA? Surely, the general representative officer is the Chair and the formal representative officer is always the Secretary? I have known of formally appointed, recognised "representative members" for UMAs. They are members with no personal assets behind whom the committee attempt to hide when the bailffs come round.

The ONLY way that a club can truly play the ignorance card is
if there is NO tangable club involvment and that clearly
isnt so with club kit.

AFAIK, there is no such thing as an ignorance card one may play in English law and I'm quite content to acccept that if I hand kit to anyone in order for them to undertake a specific dive then, since I am T.O. and as such the appointee and delegate of the D.O., English law might well presume in me a duty of care. A dim view would certainly be taken should I fail to enquire sufficiently of a trainee. However, my lending kit, club kit or my own kit, does not IMHO make a dive a club dive.

If I hand out unserviced/badly maintained kit, then I have
no responsibilty because the diver is on a "private dive".
Yeah, right!
Agreed, "yeah, right!"

There may be an average BSAC club, but that would be because across a range of reactions to any stimulus one club will be close to the middle of that range.
The BSAC, as a federation of individual clubs which choose to remain together asks us to adopt common standards so far as we are able. In Training, for example, it _requires_ that the NQI and the D.O. maintain those standards. We depart from the common standard elsewhere knowingly, deliberately, and on our own responsibility. If we've any sense, we record our particular circumstances and specify our reasons for doing so - in order to deal with subsequent inquiry.

Onesize, I still contend, does not fit all.

Mike

[terryh]

You have declared it is "onesize, fits all" and I choose not to accept your declaration. I shall explain why.

The E.O. hands a full set of OW kit to a trainee at the commencement of his/her OW training asking that it be returned when the SD qualification is awarded (norm for the Branch in which I act).:=

So you are as a club aware that an individual has kit which
might be used incorrectly. Therefore you (as a responsible
club) have a mecanism in place to police said member and check
that the kit is being used resposibkly. This will include
disaplinary action and/or maybe removal of kit rights if the
DO hears the kit is being misused. Yes?

When you come up here to inform our E.O. that "there is no getting away from the fact that as a club officer he is aware of the planned dive", may I please watch?:=

Sorry MIke it wont be me making a visit, those that will are
bigger and have more teeth then any EO in the land.

According to BOH, the E.O. ought be the _appointee_ of the membership-elected D.O. In the Branch in which I act, the E.O. happens to be elected to that office by the membership.:=

Bad move. EO is not a democracy. You must have someone
in the job who is suitable and best qualified. That's why it
is an appointed, not voted post. Have a vote of confidence by
the club sure, but not an open vote.

Branches are frequently unicorporated members associations. Can someone be appointed by the committee as a representative officer in a UMA? Surely, the general representative officer is the Chair and the formal representative officer is always the Secretary? I have known of formally appointed, recognised "representative members" for UMAs. They are members with no personal assets behind whom the committee attempt to hide when the bailffs come round.:=

??????Are we talking financial, moral or personal.
Remember this is the safety of OUR friends we are talking about.

AFAIK, there is no such thing as an ignorance card one may play in English law and I'm quite content to acccept that if I hand kit to anyone in order for them to undertake a specific dive then, since I am T.O. and as such the appointee and delegate of the D.O., English law might well presume in me a duty of care. A dim view would certainly be taken should I fail to enquire sufficiently of a trainee. However, my lending kit, club kit or my own kit, does not IMHO make a dive a club dive.:=

Each club has it's own definitions of what is/isnt a club dive
and I'm not saying that lending kit makes it a club dive.
I am however saying that lending kit means that the club is
aware of the potential for a non-club dive and cannot divorce
itself from it's duty of care. As long as you do as much as
possible to check it is being used correctly and have
disaplinary action if they dont, then that's all you can really
do.

There may be an average BSAC club, but that would be because across a range of reactions to any stimulus one club will be close to the middle of that range. The BSAC, as a federation of individual clubs which choose to remain together asks us to adopt common standards so far as we are able. In Training, for example, it _requires_ that the NQI and the D.O. maintain those standards. We depart from the common standard elsewhere knowingly, deliberately, and on our own responsibility. If we've any sense, we record our particular circumstances and specify our reasons for doing so - in order to deal with subsequent inquiry:=

So tell me, do you record your reason for voting an EO
instead of apointing one? That is after all going against
BSAC doctrine.

BTW. If your kit is handed out at the beginning of training
and comes back when qualified as Sports. At what point does
the EO check that it is OK?

TerryH

PS:
Just to make quite clear that it is difficult to discuss
these matters without sounding adversarial and a bit
aggressive. If it comes across like that then I apologise.

[John Williams]

Does any BSAC branch out there have a policy on their members diving with other BSAC branches? Do any branches set restrictions on such diving such as insisting members inform their branch D.O. of the diving they intend to do beforehand?

There can be no restrictions on diving with another branch - we are all members of BSAC and we can diver wherever we like within the BSAC (and indeed anywhere else that we are welcomed, or organise for ourselves)

However - should anything go wrong and the training of divers present is questioned then their DO may be called to Coroner's court (Sheriff's Court in Scotland) to explain discrepancies.

Since your DO is prepared to take this risk on your behalf - it seems only fair that if you intend to dive outside of the branch (where diving operations are controlled by his trusted team of Marshalls) that you inform the DO of these intentions.

It may be that the DO has no problem and gives you "carte blanche" to do as you please. If the DO feels that there are risks involved in the diving you intend they may provide helpful and timely advice regarding what dangers to be aware of (or who else in the branch might have relevant experience to pass along that might enhance your enjoyment).

If divers think of their DO as a "critical friend" and as a useful resource of diving experience (their own or that of others) then this kind of question would never be an issue - the DO would ALWAYS know and approve - and the diver would always have the opportunity to enjoy their diving more!

I'm a DO and I like to be kept informed (especially where training is involved) - but do not get all heavy-handed if I find out that diving has occurred (within or without the branch) without my "permission".

If someone asks for advice and I'd given sound reasons NOT to carry out a particular dive but they went ahead anyway - then I might get all heavy-handed about that! However the correspondence that I had engaged in with them would protect me, the branch and the BSAC from the repercussions of their ill-advised actions. It is on this basis that I agreed to act as DO. I need to be able to protect myself and the wider BSAC from the foolhardiness of individuals. Fortunately there are no such individuals in my branch because I remain approachables and amenable.

On the other hand - a DO may restrict who dives with their branch. If they recognise dangerous practices in someone outside the branch (or indeed from within) that may affect the safety of those the DO is responsible for keeping safe it is their duty to restrict (but not necessarily prevent) that person from diving with the branch - until they have proved that they have changed their ways!

If the "offender" in a branch memeber then the DO has a duty to re-examine the training provided and to use the diver in a capacity that is safe until they have prove themselves capable of diving/leading dives to the level of their qualification)


John
DO
BSAC 22328

[Steve Walker]

Does any BSAC branch out there have a policy on their members diving with other BSAC branches? Do any branches set restrictions on such diving such as insisting members inform their branch D.O. of the diving they intend to do beforehand? This might include one of your sports divers diving with another branch or perhaps a trainee diving with BSAC instructors from elsewhere...
Does your branch D.O. have the final say on who you dive with and can he prevent you 'guest' diving with another branch?

Anybody have any thoughts?


Coincidentally, one of my non-BSAC buddies was saying to me last weekend how they felt it was a real pity that BSAC has such good training and how they would have liked to join to take advantage of it, but it was this intolerably patronising attitude of having to "seek permission" which so actively discouraged them. Perhaps something for Branch Officers to think about in terms of the "Branch Marketing" issue.

[Mike Halligan]

:=The E.O. hands a full set of OW kit to a trainee at the commencement of his/her OW training asking that it be returned when the SD qualification is awarded (norm for the Branch in which I act).
So you are as a club aware that an individual has kit which
might be used incorrectly. Therefore you (as a responsible
club) have a mecanism in place to police said member and check
that the kit is being used resposibkly. This will include
disaplinary action and/or maybe removal of kit rights if the
DO hears the kit is being misused. Yes?
Advise, guide and by agreement supervise, but not "police". Should misuse become apparent, then inquire and possibly discipline.

:=When you come up here to inform our E.O. that "there is no getting away from the fact that as a club officer he is aware of the planned dive", may I please watch?
Sorry MIke it wont be me making a visit, those that will are
bigger and have more teeth then any EO in the land.
As, so it happens, have I and many buddies - but only in a proper context.

:=According to BOH, the E.O. ought be the _appointee_ of the membership-elected D.O. In the Branch in which I act, the E.O. happens to be elected to that office by the membership.:=
Bad move. EO is not a democracy. You must have someone
in the job who is suitable and best qualified. That's why it
is an appointed, not voted post. Have a vote of confidence by
the club sure, but not an open vote.
Yes, my own feelings entirely, but a decision of AGM and duly recorded.

:=Branches are frequently unicorporated members associations. Can someone be appointed by the committee as a representative officer in a UMA? Surely, the general representative officer is the Chair and the formal representative officer is always the Secretary? I have known of formally appointed, recognised "representative members" for UMAs. They are members with no personal assets behind whom the committee attempt to hide when the bailffs come round.:=
??????Are we talking financial, moral or personal.
The terminology 'representative' was yours, so "Search me, Guv".

Remember this is the safety of OUR friends we are talking about.
Which makes us very much more attentive than required by whatever regulation we or others may lay down.

:=AFAIK, there is no such thing as an ignorance card one may play in English law and I'm quite content to acccept that if I hand kit to anyone in order for them to undertake a specific dive then, since I am T.O. and as such the appointee and delegate of the D.O., English law might well presume in me a duty of care. A dim view would certainly be taken should I fail to enquire sufficiently of a trainee. However, my lending kit, club kit or my own kit, does not IMHO make a dive a club dive.
Each club has it's own definitions of what is/isnt a club dive
and I'm not saying that lending kit makes it a club dive.
I am however saying that lending kit means that the club is
aware of the potential for a non-club dive and cannot divorce
itself from it's duty of care. As long as you do as much as
possible to check it is being used correctly and have
disaplinary action if they dont, then that's all you can really
do.
Originally, you were saying that the loan of kit classified the dive absolutely a club dive. Now, as clarified, I agree wholeheartedly with you.
<>
BTW. If your kit is handed out at the beginning of training
and comes back when qualified as Sports. At what point does
the EO check that it is OK?
On issue, whenever it might be pulled up by an OWI or the trainee and when it is returned (within 1 year of issue).

Just to make quite clear that it is difficult to discuss
these matters without sounding adversarial and a bit
aggressive. If it comes across like that then I apologise.

Accepted, as ever, these remarks are IMHO and do not represent anyone else's immutable policy.

Mike ;-)

[John Williams]

Coincidentally, one of my non-BSAC buddies was saying to me last weekend how they felt it was a real pity that BSAC has such good training and how they would have liked to join to take advantage of it, but it was this intolerably patronising attitude of having to "seek permission" which so actively discouraged them. Perhaps something for Branch Officers to think about in terms of the "Branch Marketing" issue.

Steve,

Since I am your DO - and you HAVE kept me informed of your diving plans (and training plans).

Have you felt patronised by my approach?

Do you feel that I care for your safety and by keeping me informed you get the benefit of my help and advice - without it feeling like "asking permission"?

Just interested to know

John

[Steve Walker]

:=Coincidentally, one of my non-BSAC buddies was saying to me last weekend how they felt it was a real pity that BSAC has such good training and how they would have liked to join to take advantage of it, but it was this intolerably patronising attitude of having to "seek permission" which so actively discouraged them. Perhaps something for Branch Officers to think about in terms of the "Branch Marketing" issue.

Steve,

Since I am your DO - and you HAVE kept me informed of your diving plans (and training plans).

Have you felt patronised by my approach?

Do you feel that I care for your safety and by keeping me informed you get the benefit of my help and advice - without it feeling like "asking permission"?

Just interested to know

John

Well it's not really about _my_ viewpoint, having started and continued with the BSAC system means it's something I'm already attuned to and I'm fully apprised of the benefits of having BSAC in your corner should you become a victim of the modern scourge we call "compensation culture". But for a fully adult experienced "crossover" diver investigating BSAC for the first time,I believe there are still sufficient "KCMG" DOs out there who could mess it up.
Cheers
Steve

[jp]

:=Coincidentally, one of my non-BSAC buddies was saying to me last weekend how they felt it was a real pity that BSAC has such good training and how they would have liked to join to take advantage of it, but it was this intolerably patronising attitude of having to "seek permission" which so actively discouraged them. Perhaps something for Branch Officers to think about in terms of the "Branch Marketing" issue.

Steve,

Hi John

Heavens above, I am fairly sure that I must have misread your posts on this, (Sunday afternoon and all that!)
Are you really saying all those things about the responsibilities of a branch or indeed the NDO, lets be clear, we all belong to BSAC, that much we can agree on, when diving with the BSAC, we follow BSAC safe diving practice, under the guidance of the branch DO, (who incidently does this with permission and under the guidance of the NDO).

BUT WHEN DIVING PRIVATLY, (ON HOLIDAY OR AWAY FROM THE BRANCH) THE BRANCH OR INDEED THE NDO) HAVE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIVING THAT TAKES PLACE.

Nor should there be unless the trip has been organised by the branch, which would be planned and run either by the DO or their DM

Think about it, one of your branch is going to a faraway place to dive and they ask you as DO for permission, what will you say? and will that advice make it OK and will it make you responsible. They will not know what the dive is going to be or who they are diving with and so on.

You must be careful not to overstep the mark or your resposibilities, you need to rely on your excellent training to ensure that when your guys dive away THEY DO IT SAFELY

best
JP


Since I am your DO - and you HAVE kept me informed of your diving plans (and training plans).

Have you felt patronised by my approach?

Do you feel that I care for your safety and by keeping me informed you get the benefit of my help and advice - without it feeling like "asking permission"?

Just interested to know

John

[David Walker]

I don't think any D.O. would (in fact I'm not certain they even can) stop you from diving with another branch. But if you dive with another branch, even as a Direct Branch member, then I believe you are then under the jurisdiction of that branch's D.O. and branch rules, even as a guest. If that branch's D.O. say's that you can't dive?

Can't, but some like to try - and just cause problems.

David

[John Williams]

BUT WHEN DIVING PRIVATLY, (ON HOLIDAY OR AWAY FROM THE BRANCH) THE BRANCH OR INDEED THE NDO) HAVE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIVING THAT TAKES PLACE.

That is true...but they do have responsibility for the training that led up to it.

The DO "Might" be the one called to account for the quality of that training should something go wrong.


Think about it, one of your branch is going to a faraway place to dive and they ask you as DO for permission, what will you say?

I'd say that thye do not need my permission - but thank them for keeping me informed and ask if there was anything I could do to enhance their fothcoming experience. I'd put them in touch woith someone who had dived in the same locality - or invited them to peruse my collection of DIVER/DIVE for a review of it (I have 20 years back copies!)

:- and will that advice make it OK

It was always, and will always be "OK". a DO has no power of veto

:-and will it make you responsible.

No - but my position as their DO makes me responsible for their actions as a diver - wherever they are and whoever they are with.

:- They will not know what the dive is going to be or who they are diving with and so on.

No..and that is half the point (bear in mind that I do see your point to). If the diver is venturing into the unknown (for them) and the DO has access to personal experience (first- or second-hand) that might reduce risks - along the lines of "don't touch the dirty brown dead looking coral with the darkened ends ...because it REALLY hurts about 20 mins later"

The "remember that clear waters give a false impression of depth - so keep a close eye on your depth guage" or the "in the UK you are never far from a recompression chamber - but on a liveaboard in the Southern Red Sea you might be a couple of days away - go steady on pushing the deco limits!"

These things are really useful topics of discussion for divers who have not spent time getting to know each other over a number of years (i.e. the new member and the DO)

Even for the experienced diver "watch the current at the Southern End of Little Brother - it splits around the island and if you go the wrong way the boat cover will not be able to follow!"


You must be careful not to overstep the mark or your resposibilities, you need to rely on your excellent training to ensure that when your guys dive away THEY DO IT SAFELY

"responsibility" and "authority" are VERY different words. A friendly and approachable attitude from a DO that encourages divers to use the DO as a resource and a useful font of sound advice (or just a good conversationalist) really can enhance the enjoyment of all.

But..let us not forget that a DO really does not deserve to have the press and the courts pushing for comment upon a dive (s)he knew nothing about until the press arrived!

Keeping your DO informed of your intentions is also VERY different from "seeking permission".

Nearly all issues in this world come down to a lack of communication. If you communicate effectively with your DO (and vice versa) you will find the relationship useful, rewarding and happy.

Fail to communicate effectively and the relationship could become strained.

John