Dumpable weight for harness [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

tom_321

22-02-2010, 09:09

bythesea

22-02-2010, 09:27

They are pockets for use with a weight harness, not to put on your existing harness are they not?

I wouldn't recommend a weight harness under a bp harness that would be uncomfortable.

What is your concern about weight belt under crotch strap, it is an accepted way to do things in a wing.

On the plus side there is less chance of accidentally loosing your weightbelt

on the minus it is one more clip to release if you do want to ditch, that's not too difficult.

You can get pockets that will fit onto your waist band, yes they are expensive.

Nigel Hewitt

22-02-2010, 09:27

I've just started using a harness and backplate and am not happy wearing a weightbelt under the crotch strap. The weightbelt won't fit over the crotch strap at all.
I'm perplexed. By the time you graduate to a harness and backplate you should have grown up beyond needing ditchable weight and tend to view it as a liability.
I've seen a tech diver protected from a rapid ascent with a lot of stops showing when one little hinge rivit on a weight belt clip broke and the crotch strap saved the day.

Ditchable weight is there so we can pin some idiot trainee who has lost the plot to the surface while we sort things out.

northern_diver

22-02-2010, 13:33

Hi All,

I've just started using a harness and backplate and am not happy wearing a weightbelt under the crotch strap. The weightbelt won't fit over the crotch strap at all. I'm only doing sea dives (no caves). I want to use ditchable weight pockets. Are the Beaver ones any good...

http://www.divelife.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=2870

All the others seem very expensive in comparison. Anybody used these...?

thanks
Tom

Tom,

I'd recomend the BOWSTONE harness-
http://www.bowstonediving.com/store/itemDetails.asp?id=15-0-2125
-hard wearing
-well constructed
-well field tested my many divers
-can personally recommend them
-fits lots of sizes and easy to tailor
-7 to 9kg per side no problem offically (cant recall of top of head)
-British made
-good after sales/repair/replace network

As an alternative, the BEAVER harness-
http://www.divemagazine.co.uk/news/article.asp?uan=3949
-cheaper option
-hard wearing though more plastic in design
-about same capacity
-good after sales/repair/replace network
-fits lots of sizes, easy to tailor

-Another alternative, the NORTHERN DIVER harness-
http://www.deepbluedive.com/department/weights-belts/northern-diver/product/northern-diver-harness/431230
-lots of extra pockets
-lots of webbing to tailor size....though lots of spare webbing then as well.

DIVEnet has several reviews you might find of use.

In ref to the crotch strap, i dont want ditchable weights, but then if i have a harness, a crotch strap will make no difference as you pull out the inserts-to either side. If you wore a normal weight belt, that be different.

I've personally seen a diver try go POLARIS because of a pouch/insert come out...its not nice, he was lucky enough to be able to grab the wreck and be down at about 35 meters so the water table kept him down a bit, happily it was only haf his weights...due to the harness.

John

ChristianG

26-02-2010, 18:21

I'm perplexed. By the time you graduate to a harness and backplate you should have grown up beyond needing ditchable weight and tend to view it as a liability.
Indeed.

OneDragons

26-02-2010, 18:42

bythesea

26-02-2010, 18:47

It is, but what a bout the importance of not exiting the water at a million miles an hour missing deco because your weights fell off?

Things have to get to a terrible point before it is worth considering ditching your weights at depth

Ron MacRae

26-02-2010, 18:50

How widespread is this practice? Just a bit perplexed since the importance of ditchable weight is really stressed during training.
Not important unless you have too much. If you're correctly weighted I can send/take you to the surface by inflating your BCD just a little.

If you are ditching weight this is a rapid ascent with the associated issues.
It's the last ditch effort in an emergency and not something to be taken lightly.

Ron.

iainmsmith

26-02-2010, 18:51

I remember our DO telling me he didn't have ditchable weight. At first I thought he must be mad!

How widespread is this practice? Just a bit perplexed since the importance of ditchable weight is really stressed during training.

Depends who does your training. It is covered and it is taught as a mandatory skill, however...

(adapting a quote from someone several years ago)

I've done something like 650 dives. In those dives, I have never once needed to ditch weight. I have, however, relied on my weight not ditching on every single dive.

My question to you would be, "Assuming that you are properly weighted, in what scenario do you think that ditchable weight would be the best solution?"

In actual fact, diving in the UK, with twin steel 12s, AL backplate, a drysuit and thick undersuit, I am neutral with near-empty tanks without any weight. There is nothing I can ditch! Likewise diving with an aluminimum twinset in Mexico with an AL plate, drysuit and medium-weight undersuit, I'm completely neutral. Before anyone who knows me jumps in, that's neutral before adding the battery pack!

Iain

ChristianG

26-02-2010, 19:05

I remember our DO telling me he didn't have ditchable weight. At first I thought he must be mad!

How widespread is this practice? Just a bit perplexed since the importance of ditchable weight is really stressed during training.
Well, there are any number of reasons.

• Ditching weight makes you look like a Polaris missile.
• Therefore ditching weight is not a good idea.
• Ditching weight mostly means that you're are close as dammit to, well, death. I would when at that stage remove my weight belt (if I had one, I don't) so that if I lost consciousness I would at least float up and thus prevent others from having to "recover me from the sea", thus risking their own lives.

Incidentally, I find it pretty pathetic that people seem to think that bodies need to be recovered from the sea. Bodies are protein and it's about time that people realised that they've been eating this resource for quite some time.

I happens that fish like protein just as we do.

OneDragons

26-02-2010, 22:33

graham nurse

27-02-2010, 00:29

There is a reason that ditching your and your buddies weights are focused on so much during the diver training program. The reason is too many people that were seen alive on the surface struggling and then found dead on the bottom. After analyzing incidents the BSAC increased the emphasis on this skill.

When I am gas diving I have multiple sources of buoyancy and my weight belt if I am wearing it is under my crutch strap, (the most I ever needed is 8ibs). On a dive with a large decompression penalty going uncontrollably positively buoyant on the accent is likely to bend me badly.

If I dive with a single cylinder I will not be getting close to decompression ceilings, I only have one gas supply to provide buoyancy so I prefer to have some easily ditchable weight.

To the OP it is up to you to decide what is the higher risk. Inadvertently loosing weight making a fast accent missing your decompression, or loosing all your sources of buoyancy and not being able to stay on the surface. What ever option you choose make sure that the weight is secure and will only release when you want it to.

Graham.

graham nurse

27-02-2010, 00:42

Fair enough. I can certainly see the merits of not having ditchable weight on balance.

So when in some ones diving career would you consider it to be a good idea to start down this route?

Would you do it when converting over to a twin set or just when someone is very confident in their weighting at whatever point in training they are at?

For me the time to have fixed weight is when the consequences of loosing my weight is a higher risk than not being able to dump it. If I am decompression diving I have multiple sources of buoyancy so the chances of being uncontrollably negative are very low.

If you are doing decompression diving weight that is not easily ditchable is an advantage. Before you start decompression diving you should sort your weighting properly and practice decompression accents with the appropriate kit this may be the time to consider your weighting system.

Graham.

PeteM

28-02-2010, 09:00

For me the time to have fixed weight is when the consequences of loosing my weight is a higher risk than not being able to dump it.

I think that is key.

You could also consider whether to keep ditchable weight but with a two process ditch. I, like Graham, have my weight belt under my crotch strap so you need to release the belt and the strap. Others I dive with have two buckles on the belt or a short piece of webbing attaching the belt to a D Ring on the BC via some form of clip

bythesea

28-02-2010, 09:54

Is dumpable weight not a throw back to the pre BC days?

Yes you might want to dump on the surface, I am thinking on the bottom.

With a decent amount of lift in a BC and a second source, usually a drysuit in this country I can't really see the relevance of dumpable weights.

If you feel a need you only need around two Kg to be dumpable, chuck these and you will rise, it is less expensive this way too...

graham nurse

28-02-2010, 13:01

The BSAC re emphasized this in there training after a analyzing incidents. Multiple sources of buoyancy are only of benefit if you have multiple gas supplies to power them. I can think of two incidents that I doubt I would ever of heard of if the peaple concerned had ditched there lead.

One of the big problems is the mayority of divers carry more weight than the need. This seems to apply to single tank divers in particular either because they are inexperienced or because they have been diving a long time and that is the weight they have always needed.

Graham.

northern_diver

28-02-2010, 15:29

Incidentally, I find it pretty pathetic that people seem to think that bodies need to be recovered from the sea. Bodies are protein and it's about time that people realised that they've been eating this resource for quite some time.

I happens that fish like protein just as we do.

Incidently i think its pretty odd (i have stronger words going through my head...) that you should say that.

So, Christian the cannibal, do bodies need to be recovered maybe to fulfil a persons religious beliefs or to provide a measure of closure to a family or to provide forensic evidence on the reasons for the body been there in the first place or even just to recover the equipment/materials on the body...To be honest Christian, i wouldnt have expected you to say something so insensitive.:( :mad:

Spoilt a otherwise fine post

John

Rowly

01-03-2010, 18:40

Sometimes, I think people forget that this is a "Just started diving" forum.

I imagine that more and more beginners may opt for a small wing. Despite it's surface support issues with a single cylinder it seems to make financial sense if we (beginners) have to buy our own kit.

Then we start to consider our training and default to all the safety advice, i.e. how do we become positively buoyant in an out of air situation?

Having had some free flows it terrifies the life out of me to think that I couldn't get to the surface because I am carrying weight.

I opted for both. I have some weight in a belt under my harness and some in ditch-able attachments to my harness.

For a beginner, not considering doing long deco stops, going up like a polaris missile seems better than staying weighted to the deep.

Garf

01-03-2010, 19:01

Having had some free flows it terrifies the life out of me to think that I couldn't get to the surface because I am carrying weight.

If you can't swim up cylinders that are nearly empty you are almost certainly overweighted. With my twins at 30 bar a deep breath held for a few seconds will start an ascent that will put me on the surface. If they go down to 10 bar I'm on the surface whether i like it or not. you should never be "weighted to the deep". Unfortunately, it never fails to amaze me how many experienced divers still overweight themselves. I once did a DIR introduction day for a couple of people and took 14 kilos off someone. and that was in a twinset.

Adrian Kelland

01-03-2010, 20:13

If you can't swim up cylinders that are nearly empty you are almost certainly overweighted. With my twins at 30 bar a deep breath held for a few seconds will start an ascent that will put me on the surface. If they go down to 10 bar I'm on the surface whether i like it or not. you should never be "weighted to the deep". Unfortunately, it never fails to amaze me how many experienced divers still overweight themselves. I once did a DIR introduction day for a couple of people and took 14 kilos off someone. and that was in a twinset.
I bet they felt a lot better moving around after losing that little lot.

Hickdive

01-03-2010, 20:34

Incidentally, I find it pretty pathetic that people seem to think that bodies need to be recovered from the sea.

Besides the obvious emotional needs of the deceased's family, the recovery and identification of remains fulfils an important legal function in enabling a death certificate to be issued.

Without a recovered body it can be a long and tortuous legal process to have the 'missing' diver declared dead and enable the next of kin to access insurance, bank accounts, pensions etc.

To the OP. Dumpable weight is a good idea when your dives don't take you into areas where the loss of them would make your situation worse. Typically less experienced divers should certainly consider dumpable weight.

Here's a sad story that perhaps highlights both the need for dumpable weight on the early dives and the necessity of having that weight releasable single-handed;

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/HERRIOT.html

Garf

01-03-2010, 21:40

I bet they felt a lot better moving around after losing that little lot.

felt better, had more energy, gas usage dropped dramatically, trimming flat became realistic. I personally think overweighting is the single biggest mistake made by divers. It knackers everything.

OneDragons

01-03-2010, 22:15

That makes a very worrying read. Sounds like quite a few things went wrong there, very sad for all concerned both on the day and everyone affected by such a loss not least the families.

One quote I did find interesting:

I further recommend that ankle weights should not be used by novice divers.

OneDragons

01-03-2010, 22:43

Both B J Walzak and Mike Morgan gave opinion evidence that the minimum amount of air that a diver should commence a dive with would be 200 bar. Mike Morgan said that there was a protocol operated by the Puffin Dive Centre in which divers never entered the water with less than 200 bar because "one could never foresee what might occur in a dive" (91).

Does anyone else think this recommendation is a bit over the top?
I have gone in with about 120 bar before with no problem and still surfacing with at least 80bar.

northern_diver

02-03-2010, 01:19

200 bar...B*** ***t i've never had a 200 bar fill from puffin, they are famous for naff,over quick fills.

The more the better in terms of gas however, within practical levels. How many instructors use dregs in the pool or people training etc

Plan the dive, dive the plan, work out a suitable amount for YOU on YOUR dive...200 is better than 190....especially if yo need that 10 bar;)

John

TerryH

02-03-2010, 09:00

I personally think overweighting is the single biggest mistake made by divers. It knackers everything.

Most novice divers overbreathe and will tend to need more lead on the first
few dives, but the real problem IMO is that either the Instructor or now diver
fails to do regular buoyancy checks. As confidence is gained and they start
to get it together, the lead needs to come off.

Divers seem to get in a mindset that says cause I had 12 kgs last time,
i'll need 12kgs this time and without regular checks, realise 2 years down the
line that they actually only need 8kgs.

Garf

02-03-2010, 10:47

steve6690

02-03-2010, 11:05

Most novice divers overbreathe and will tend to need more lead on the first
few dives, but the real problem IMO is that either the Instructor or now diver
fails to do regular buoyancy checks. As confidence is gained and they start
to get it together, the lead needs to come off.

Divers seem to get in a mindset that says cause I had 12 kgs last time,
i'll need 12kgs this time and without regular checks, realise 2 years down the
line that they actually only need 8kgs.

The ADI who did all my OD and SD training went to Stoney with me a couple of years ago when I'd just graduated to a twinset. We were both in twin 12's. At the end of a shallow bimble I got down to about 25 bar and adjusted my weighting so I could hold a stop at 3m. He thought his weighting was spot-on, but when we did the check he went from 8kg to 4kg.
One of our members bought twins last year and hadn't done a proper weight check. He worked it out in his head instead. His first dive was a 30m deco dive in the sea. He had to fin down at the start of the dive as he was obviously underweighted. On the ascent he couldn't stop at 6m and missed 16 mins of stops which cost him a chopper and pot ride.
I still struggle with trim though, needing to fin constantly to stop my legs from sinking. I need to try a p or v weight I think..

Garf

02-03-2010, 12:17

I still struggle with trim though, needing to fin constantly to stop my legs from sinking. I need to try a p or v weight I think..

Trim is all about body position. Weight doesn't really have much bearing on it. Once you get a feel for how to trim out horizontally you can trim out anything you are put in, be it a BCD and single or Wing and twinset. Don't get trapped into trying to balance your set on your back. It's you that has to be balanced.

steve6690

02-03-2010, 12:50

Trim is all about body position. Weight doesn't really have much bearing on it. Once you get a feel for how to trim out horizontally you can trim out anything you are put in, be it a BCD and single or Wing and twinset. Don't get trapped into trying to balance your set on your back. It's you that has to be balanced.

I suspect that the problem may also be that my twinset sits too low. I can reach the valves ok but if I put my head right back it doesn't touch the manifold, unlike some divers I've seen. I have a day at Stoney in a couple of weeks to play with all this..it needs to be sorted once and for all. I've not really bothered too much about it till now.

Garf

02-03-2010, 12:54

I suspect that the problem may also be that my twinset sits too low. I can reach the valves ok but if I put my head right back it doesn't touch the manifold, unlike some divers I've seen. I have a day at Stoney in a couple of weeks to play with all this..it needs to be sorted once and for all. I've not really bothered too much about it till now.

As a starting point, the best place for the bands is to have the upper lip of the top band just below the breaking point of the curve at the top of the cylinder, so basically as high up as possible without touching the curve. However, the length of the harness then comes into play as well as a bunch of other factors.

steve6690

02-03-2010, 13:24

As a starting point, the best place for the bands is to have the upper lip of the top band just below the breaking point of the curve at the top of the cylinder, so basically as high up as possible without touching the curve. However, the length of the harness then comes into play as well as a bunch of other factors.

Top of the bands is just below the break. One of the first things I planned to try was to adjust the harness so the set sits higher but I'll wait till you've cast your eye over my setup as per your pm.