General BSAC Feedback

[helenm]

I've been pondering about posting this for a while, as I suspect that it won't take long for me to be shot down in flames. But I think that the BSAC is a genuinely laudable and worthwhile institution, and consequently worth some time in feeding back my thoughts.

About 12 months ago, as a then PADI AOW with a limited amount of UK dives under my belt, I was looking for three things:
1) The opportunity to get further high quality training in UK waters
2) The opportunity for regular diving in this country
3) A lively diving internet forum with a warm welcome, educational chat and a sense of humour.

The obvious place for me to turn was the BSAC. I registered with a number of websites at the time, and spent a couple of weeks reading and watching without ever posting. I am the same HelenM who also appears on a couple of other diving web forums which you may or may not be familiar with.

This is actually my first post on this site - and as I have said, it is nearly twelve months after I had set up the account. I am not a member of BSAC, and now have absolutely no intention of joining. Appreciate that you might find me posting here both inflammatory and offensive, but I hope that you are able to put that to one side and examine my reasons for not joining your organisation.

Lat year I spent some time reading the posts on this forum, and came to the following conclusions:

1) As a PADI trained diver I would be deemed something of a second class citizen. There were any number of patronising jokes and there seems to be a real 'them and us' culture prevailing. I think that that is a shame, and a genuine missed opportunity - how many other divers in my situation have been put off? Like it or not, a sizeable proportion of the divers in this country will be trained by PADI. At some point they may take a look at joining the BSAC, and I have to tell you that from this perspective BSAC is not a welcoming organisation to join. (For what it is worth, this impression has since been validated by any number of BSAC divers whom I encountered on a Red Sea liveaboard since this period. Not least the Dive Leader who began interrogating me about what depth 'Rescue Diver' permitted me to dive to. As I am sure that a number of you are aware, completion of the PADI Rescue Diver course does not change the depth you are qualified to. My explanation of that was greeted with sneers). Different doesn't always mean better OR worse you know, sometimes it's just... different!

2) This forum does not encourage reasoned and rational debate. It appears to be a hostile and argumentative place, with loud voices shouting just for the sake of it, rather than because they necessarily have anything of value to offer. More than anything else this put me off your organisation. A friend who is a member of BSAC directed me back here recently, and I have to say that it seems that little or nothing has changed on this front.

I have absolutely no hidden agenda in passing on this feedback. I guess that my purpose in posting here is twofold. Firstly I hope that there are enough senior people in BSAC reading this who are cool headed enough to sit back and recognise that they need to show leadership to the rest of the divers in the organisation, and provide a genuine and warm welcome to newcomers, irrespective of where they have come from. If you feel that there are gaps in the training which that individual may have received, then take the opportunity to fill those gaps - don't patronise the diver because of them. And secondly, perhaps it might be worth people realising that when you post on this site, you don't know all of your audience, and petty -and frankly often abusive - scraps such as those found here regularly are not the way to encourage growth of your membership.

I don't mean this post to be offensive - I genuinely don't. I do believe that BSAC has a huge amount to offer divers. I simply thought you might find some value in hearing why one individual - at least - elected not to join you. It's usually the ones who get away that you never hear from after all!

Kind regards, (honestly!)
Helen

[Nigel Hewitt]

It may be that several people will want to reply but as a PADI trained BSAC member I guess I ought to try. I'm going to only quote the bits I reply to:

1) As a PADI trained diver I would be deemed something of a second class citizen.

Actually those that know rate RD as a good course. Those scenarios you did can be (should be) mean and testing. An RD card in a buddy is something I like.
There will be patronising jokes and a touch of 'them and us' but that is true in any cross-qualification situation. If you find a normal club (not dinasaurs r us SAC) you will find the attitude more "A diver? What are you doing Saterday? We have a space to fill on the RIB". Your RD qualification will just be a case of "Well she won't be a problem then".

Not least the Dive Leader who began interrogating me about what depth 'Rescue Diver' permitted me to dive to.

You found one there. But recognise - he didn't know which implies he needed to ask. BSAC qualifications tick up more each level but Rescue is mostly a surface course. He may have suffered from self importance based on ignorance.

2) This forum does not encourage reasoned and rational debate. It appears to be a hostile and argumentative place, with loud voices shouting just for the sake of it,

You must have seen that there are worse places. Sadly the loudest voice is heard. It is not nescesaraly the majority view.

I don't mean this post to be offensive - I genuinely don't.

I wouldn't have bothered to reply if I thought you did. You seem to have got the raw end of the BSAC stick. I, on the other hand, walked into a local club and was invited to go diving. To this day I have never taken a BSAC course nor do I hold a BSAC qualification. I am a member and I dive with my fellow members. I have received nothing but support and assistance and, when I'm not hanging over the side of the club RIB discharging breakfast, I try to put my share back.

Give us a clue where you are (geographically) and I would hope that somebody can recomend a PADI friendly BSAC club near you. Walk in the door on club night and you will discover that "Diver" is worth more then "BSAC". If you judge us by these forums you will think we hate one another, not just you.

nigelH
Brighton

[David Walker]

About 12 months ago, as a then PADI AOW with a limited amount of UK dives under my belt, I was looking for three things:
1) The opportunity to get further high quality training in UK waters

Can definitely get that!

2) The opportunity for regular diving in this country

That too!

3) A lively diving internet forum with a warm welcome, educational chat and a sense of humour.

That too - well.... mostly! Some threads go round and round in circles arguing a point, but they're rarely offensive, at least not from people i've seen posting messages here regularly.

Lat year I spent some time reading the posts on this forum, and came to the following conclusions:
1) As a PADI trained diver I would be deemed something of a second class citizen.

Frankly, I (and most other people I know) would look at you as a diver, not you as a PADI-qualified diver. If you can dive then that should be no problem. I have to say I do know of a lot of PADI-trained divers, and a lot of them really wouldn't be safe in a puddle, never mind the sea, but I also know some very good PADI-trained divers, and so I don't make any sort of judgement based on that - I may want to see evidence that you can dive (ie to dive with you myself), but I'd do that for BSAC trained divers too.

2) This forum does not encourage reasoned and rational debate. It appears to be a hostile and argumentative place, with loud voices shouting just for the sake of it, rather than because they necessarily have anything of value to offer.

Thats probably just because those sorts of threads tend to get long - the more useful ones are shorter.

If you feel that there are gaps in the training which that individual may have received, then take the opportunity to fill those gaps - don't patronise the diver because of them.

You haven't joined BSAC, no? You really haven't given people a chance to get to know you and how you dive, and so all people have to go on is a qualification. You won't get much from diving with anyone until you get involved and actually take the plunge and join a club to go diving with. I joined a new club last Monday, the first time out I was an unknown to the others, so I was doing a shallower dive than most others on the boat - I could have taken it like "they don't like me because i'm [insert something here]", but I understand that diving with new people you won't be treated as fully competent until you have shown them that.
You won't get anything out until you put something in - if you don't join BSAC, you'll never see the benefits by just watching the forum and coming across other BSAC divers randomly on boats. If you do join, you very quickly become part of the club (well, I suppose it depends on the club), and will really enjoy the diving you do, and the atmosphere around the clubs (the ones i've been to anyway).

I don't suppose you will join now, but seriously if you do you will get a real reflection of BSAC rather than a few bits of babble on a forum or one diver who didn't know you on a boat.

David

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Wow! What a great post!

I've been pondering about posting this for a while, as I suspect that it won't take long for me to be shot down in flames. But I think that the BSAC is a genuinely laudable and worthwhile institution, and consequently worth some time in feeding back my thoughts.

Glad you did Helen, I hope that there are some who frequent this forum who will sit up and take note of what you say. We try not to ?do? shooting down in flames, especially when somebody offers well thought out, well presented and constructive comments such as yours.

About 12 months ago, as a then PADI AOW with a limited amount of UK dives under my belt, I was looking for three things:
1) The opportunity to get further high quality training in UK waters
2) The opportunity for regular diving in this country
3) A lively diving internet forum with a warm welcome, educational chat and a sense of humour.

We can certainly do the first two, it?s been a bit rough on here lately regarding the third ? that?s MY fault as I?m supposed to be the forum moderator. Sorry about that aspect Helen.

This is actually my first post on this site - and as I have said, it is nearly twelve months after I had set up the account. I am not a member of BSAC, and now have absolutely no intention of joining. Appreciate that you might find me posting here both inflammatory and offensive, but I hope that you are able to put that to one side and examine my reasons for not joining your organisation.

It?s a great pity that you now have no intention of joining, I can understand that given your experiences. But we?re not all like that, there are still some dinosaurs in our club and personally I hope that they eventually go the same way as all good dinosaurs and become extinct. As for your post being ?inflammatory? or ?offensive? in any shape or form ? NO WAY! I want it to stay, in it?s entirety, for our members and clubs to read and learn from. It?s a perfectly valid comment IMHO so therefore it is very welcome.

Lat year I spent some time reading the posts on this forum, and came to the following conclusions:

1) As a PADI trained diver I would be deemed something of a second class citizen. There were any number of patronising jokes and there seems to be a real 'them and us' culture prevailing. I think that that is a shame, and a genuine missed opportunity - how many other divers in my situation have been put off? Like it or not, a sizeable proportion of the divers in this country will be trained by PADI. At some point they may take a look at joining the BSAC, and I have to tell you that from this perspective BSAC is not a welcoming organisation to join. (For what it is worth, this impression has since been validated by any number of BSAC divers whom I encountered on a Red Sea liveaboard since this period. Not least the Dive Leader who began interrogating me about what depth 'Rescue Diver' permitted me to dive to. As I am sure that a number of you are aware, completion of the PADI Rescue Diver course does not change the depth you are qualified to. My explanation of that was greeted with sneers). Different doesn't always mean better OR worse you know, sometimes it's just... different!

What can I say. Nothing really, I can?t apologise or excuse gross ignorance from one of our members such as you have experienced. All that I can say is that your experience is NOT typical, I could give you loads and loads of examples where somebody with your experience has been welcomed with open arms. You have been unlucky, but that doesn?t undo the disgraceful behaviour that you have experienced.

For what it?s worth I?m a DL, I am also on record (many times) as recognising the PADI Rescue course and one of the best courses that PADI do, I wouldn?t mind doing it myself as I am sure that I would learn something! Personally I don?t give a damn what flavour/colour/agency your card is from, I want to know about the DIVER, not the bit of paper they?ve got.

2) This forum does not encourage reasoned and rational debate. It appears to be a hostile and argumentative place, with loud voices shouting just for the sake of it, rather than because they necessarily have anything of value to offer. More than anything else this put me off your organisation. A friend who is a member of BSAC directed me back here recently, and I have to say that it seems that little or nothing has changed on this front.

I try Helen, I try to encourage civilised and reasoned debate, but then they shout at me when I try to put a stop to the hostile environment that is sometimes portrayed. All that I will say to our members/contributors is READ WHAT HELEN IS TELLING YOU, then perhaps you?ll understand some of my actions.

I have absolutely no hidden agenda in passing on this feedback. I guess that my purpose in posting here is twofold. Firstly I hope that there are enough senior people in BSAC reading this who are cool headed enough to sit back and recognise that they need to show leadership to the rest of the divers in the organisation, and provide a genuine and warm welcome to newcomers, irrespective of where they have come from. If you feel that there are gaps in the training which that individual may have received, then take the opportunity to fill those gaps - don't patronise the diver because of them. And secondly, perhaps it might be worth people realising that when you post on this site, you don't know all of your audience, and petty -and frankly often abusive - scraps such as those found here regularly are not the way to encourage growth of your membership.

OK, I?ll tell you who I am Helen. I?m a BSAC Council Member, one of those very ?senior people? within the BSAC who you are trying to address these issues to. I sit on the committee/board at the very top of the BSAC, it is the Council Members who effectively guide the entire club, there is nobody above us. We KNOW what you?re trying to tell us, we?ve heard it all before ? BTW, that doesn?t mean you?re wasting your time, in fact it helps to hammer the point home a bit! What you?re asking for is already there at the very top, we try to provide that leadership, by example (although it?s what we all firmly believe in anyway). Where we have obviously failed is in communicating that better to our members. That I readily acknowledge, that is something that we are working on right now.


I don't mean this post to be offensive - I genuinely don't. I do believe that BSAC has a huge amount to offer divers. I simply thought you might find some value in hearing why one individual - at least - elected not to join you. It's usually the ones who get away that you never hear from after all!

You are not being offensive in any shape or form Helen, far from it in my opinion. I would like to personally thank you for taking the time and effort to post. I would however like to request that you give us just one more chance, let us show you what we?re really like, let us show you what the BSAC is really about.

Please contact me privately by email, my email address is <a href="mailto:keith.lawrence@bsac.com">keith.lawrence@bsac.com</a>. Give me your geographical location, I will personally make some enquiries and try to find you a local club who do not share the disgraceful dinosaur attitudes that you have experienced and will welcome you as the diver that you are. Also, let me know where you dive, if I?m around then I?ll invite you to come diving with ME (OK, some may argue that?s not much of an offer ;-)). I?m BSAC trained, I?m a DL, I?ll dive with somebody of your experience and dedication any time!

So I?m sorry about the experiences you?ve had with the BSAC Helen, I can only apologise on behalf of the club and hope that some of our more backward members take note! I would also like to thank you once again for your post, personally I found it very positive and constructive. But hey ? how about giving us one more chance?

Kind Regards

Keith L

[Bren Tierney]

Hey Helen (and all subsequent respondees),

Just like to say what an even tempered, well metered and lucid exchange by all concerned. More of the same please.

Cheers,

Bren.

PS: Helen, see you in Anglesey.

[Andy Wade]

I've been pondering about posting this for a while, as I suspect that it won't take long for me to be shot down in flames. But I think that the BSAC is a genuinely laudable and worthwhile institution, and consequently worth some time in feeding back my thoughts.

About 12 months ago, as a then PADI AOW with a limited amount of UK dives under my belt, I was looking for three things:
1) The opportunity to get further high quality training in UK waters
2) The opportunity for regular diving in this country
3) A lively diving internet forum with a warm welcome, educational chat and a sense of humour.

The obvious place for me to turn was the BSAC. I registered with a number of websites at the time, and spent a couple of weeks reading and watching without ever posting. I am the same HelenM who also appears on a couple of other diving web forums which you may or may not be familiar with.

This is actually my first post on this site - and as I have said, it is nearly twelve months after I had set up the account. I am not a member of BSAC, and now have absolutely no intention of joining. Appreciate that you might find me posting here both inflammatory and offensive, but I hope that you are able to put that to one side and examine my reasons for not joining your organisation.

Lat year I spent some time reading the posts on this forum, and came to the following conclusions:

1) As a PADI trained diver I would be deemed something of a second class citizen. There were any number of patronising jokes and there seems to be a real 'them and us' culture prevailing. I think that that is a shame, and a genuine missed opportunity - how many other divers in my situation have been put off? Like it or not, a sizeable proportion of the divers in this country will be trained by PADI. At some point they may take a look at joining the BSAC, and I have to tell you that from this perspective BSAC is not a welcoming organisation to join. (For what it is worth, this impression has since been validated by any number of BSAC divers whom I encountered on a Red Sea liveaboard since this period. Not least the Dive Leader who began interrogating me about what depth 'Rescue Diver' permitted me to dive to. As I am sure that a number of you are aware, completion of the PADI Rescue Diver course does not change the depth you are qualified to. My explanation of that was greeted with sneers). Different doesn't always mean better OR worse you know, sometimes it's just... different!

2) This forum does not encourage reasoned and rational debate. It appears to be a hostile and argumentative place, with loud voices shouting just for the sake of it, rather than because they necessarily have anything of value to offer. More than anything else this put me off your organisation. A friend who is a member of BSAC directed me back here recently, and I have to say that it seems that little or nothing has changed on this front.

I have absolutely no hidden agenda in passing on this feedback. I guess that my purpose in posting here is twofold. Firstly I hope that there are enough senior people in BSAC reading this who are cool headed enough to sit back and recognise that they need to show leadership to the rest of the divers in the organisation, and provide a genuine and warm welcome to newcomers, irrespective of where they have come from. If you feel that there are gaps in the training which that individual may have received, then take the opportunity to fill those gaps - don't patronise the diver because of them. And secondly, perhaps it might be worth people realising that when you post on this site, you don't know all of your audience, and petty -and frankly often abusive - scraps such as those found here regularly are not the way to encourage growth of your membership.

I don't mean this post to be offensive - I genuinely don't. I do believe that BSAC has a huge amount to offer divers. I simply thought you might find some value in hearing why one individual - at least - elected not to join you. It's usually the ones who get away that you never hear from after all!

Kind regards, (honestly!)

Rather than answer your very well put individual points I'll give a general answer...
Firstly you should understand that this forum is only a very tiny part of BSAC, there are probably only 20 or 30 of what I'd call regular posters on it for a start. (Maybe Keith has a better idea of those figures).
These people care enough about diving to start discussions on the subject and as with so many things in life, there are often what I'd call free and frank discussions taking place, with often diametrically opposed views coming to the surface, it's just like life though isn't it?

And quite a few of these angry posters are both PADI _and_ BSAC, and have trained with quite a few other organisations as well.

For the most part however, I'd say that a lot of grievances get aired here because it's a very public place to do it, and anyone can have a dig at BSAC at the same time without having to go through any editorial control (except if it gets a bit out of hand then Keith will step in and calm things down). You wouldn't see even half of these postings in Dive Mag for example.
You should also remember that a greater portion of people lurk on the forums (I have a look at least a couple of times a day... I know, sad isn't it?).
Not everyone feels the need to put fingers to keyboard but when they do, I've found that most of them favour a far more moderate view than what those you'll see on the forums.
You just proved that when you made your post.

We (BSAC) are getting better every day in our understanding of other dive training methods (in my experience anyway), I can clearly remember when PADI was a very dirty word in this country, and a lot of that was down to a lack of understanding. Now the 'rivalry' is because people are seeing BSAC wane a bit (in numbers at least) and PADI is on the increase because they have the market cornered for starting people on the road to diving, if not with the back up of a diving 'Club' , which is still BSAC's strongest asset.
Heaven help us if they start setting up a national dive club....;-)
BSAC will only change for the better if we (and I mean you as well) continue to spread the message that a diver is a diver no matter where they trained.
Please reconsider your decision and take up Keith's very generous offer, apparently he doesn't get out much nowadays so a chance to actually see him dive is worth the effort at least!
If he can't find you a PADI friendly BSAC branch then I for one will eat my hat because there are a lot of them out there.
(My hat is made of rice paper... before you ask)
;-)

[Gary Cameron]

I must say my initial reaction to this post is don't judge the book by the cover.
BSAC is built up mainly from local branches and I would guess the vast majority of them don't log onto this or any other forum. So if its forum fun and humour then BSAC is probably not the best place. Also unlike some other forums, I dont think most of the contributers to this one, actually dive together.

However the branches are excellent places to go diving with. Our branch has had plenty of PADI people doing the cross over and they were all fine. I think you will find (if you try)that the branches put commitment to diving before the agency you trained with. In our branch, we try and get the open water training kicked off in Jan - April, although we still do it in summer. This allows trainees to do what is important and that is go diving. We also do training weekends away in places like the lakes which gives everyone a better chance of getting to know each other.

Wherever you go the important bit is to get lots of diving and have some fun.

I must admit to not knowing a great deal about PADI, but then I dont need to. HQ can tell me what the x over matches are, but more importantly its the enthusiasm that counts when potential members walk through the branch door. Well that what I think.

If you ever re-consider joining BSAC, then I suggest maybe checking out the branches in your area. Then make your mind up.

Good luck

Gary Cameron
DO
In a BSAC Branch.

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Please reconsider your decision and take up Keith's very generous offer, apparently he doesn't get out much nowadays so a chance to actually see him dive is worth the effort at least!

Oi! I heard that!! Please bear in mind that we do not have a sense of humour and it is a well established fact that Council members never go diving. Please be careful when posting such disgraceful slurs about forum members ;-)

Keith L

[Andy Wade]

:=Please reconsider your decision and take up Keith's very generous offer, apparently he doesn't get out much nowadays so a chance to actually see him dive is worth the effort at least!

Oi! I heard that!! Please bear in mind that we do not have a sense of humour and it is a well established fact that Council members never go diving. Please be careful when posting such disgraceful slurs about forum members ;-)


If you dare to sue, I shan't hesitate to apologise most profusely
;-)

[terryh]

Hi Helen,

Well let me add my name to those who are not going to flame
you for saying what you feel about BSAC. Having joined BSAC
as PADI Rescue about 10 years ago, I encountered a lot of the
dinosaur mentality you talk of. Thankfully though that
situation has changed and most BSAC clubs really do now welcome
divers from whatever agency.

Take our club. We are a Uni Special Branch that takes on
36 new members every October of which one third are other
agency divers. What makes it more fun is the other agency can
easily be from a non-english country. So it might not be just
PADI, but CMAS, FEDAS, FFSSM & ACUC along with SAA & SSI.

Multiply that number with all the other Uni dive clubs and
you have a massive "other agency" influx. I can honestly say
that all are very welcome. Not only does it save a shedload of
work, but exposing our BSAC only trained divers to other
agencies and techniques is very advantageous.

Take the Practical Rescue Management course we ran at Horsea
a few weeks ago. Once the BSAC PRM stuff was done.
The Instructors (who are also PADI pros) did bits of PADI
rescue. In the end about 3 hours of it!

Diving is diving. BSAC dont have all awnsers, neither do PADI.
The best way is to take ideas from whatever source and find out
what works best. That's the real advantage of a multi-agency
diver.

But ...... Remember that if you have a few mates (I think
it's 5x), you can be a BSAC club. So unsurprisingly there
are a few clubs that eg. might be part of a firms dive club
or set up to do a particular sort of diving, that fosters
an insular mentality. So I wouldnt take much notice of your
DL chappie, the fact he asked the RD question just shows his
ignorance.

As for this forum, yes I must put my hands up to spouting
rubbish and carrying on threads long after they should have
been put to bed, but that's one of best things about BSAC.

Disagreements and anomlies that do more harm being bottled up
are allowed to have an outlet. Even if we argue about topics
that we are passionate about, it doesnt stop me going diving
with that same person the next day.

Let me ask you this.
Have you been to pub, club, resturant etc. with the wrong
people. Rubbish wasnt it?
Been to the same places, but with a different mob.
Had a great time. Yes?

That's what BSAC is like. Take up Keith's offer and go along
to a few local clubs. Check them out and checkout the people
in them. You WILL find like minded divers who accept you for
what you are, another diver. May take one or two goes, but
like that pub. It didnt stop you goung there when it was
a different crowd.

Rgds
TerryH
PADI & BSAC

[Chris Cherrington]

1) The opportunity to get further high quality training in UK waters
2) The opportunity for regular diving in this country
3) A lively diving internet forum with a warm welcome, educational chat and a sense of humour.

1. Err... Cheltenham - Dive 90!! Talk to my mate Mike... (do the RD)

2. BSAC have it there (it aint too much dosh really - even I used to belong before moving to sunny climes - he... he... you know who I am now!).

3 YD. (see 2)

Chris.

[helenm]

I've replied to my own post as I wanted to make this a general response to everyone who has replied on this thread.

First and foremost - many thanks to you ALL for your detailed and courteous responses. I can see that you have all spent some time compiling them, and am grateful for that (and for not being incinerated!). It is also good to see that you are all universal in your welcome of PADI divers looking to cross over.

Those of you I don't respond to directly, it's not because your input wasn't valued, it's because I'm hopefully covering the point under someone else's name!

(Sorry, I can't work out the blasted quote function, so I'm afraid you are going to have to put up with good old fashioned inverted commas!)

Nigel - Cheers, good to get the perspective of someone who has made the jump across, and pleased to see that it worked well for you. One quick point though:

"Your RD qualification will just be a case of "Well she won't be a problem then".

At the time I was looking at BSAC I was only AOW. I had completed a referral course for my Open Water course in sunnier climes, and had done my AOW in the UK as a way of being introduced to UK conditions under the guidance of an instructor. I had a grand(!) total of 4 UK dives and during them had found that I had an huge passion for diving in this country as well as in-the-warm-water-with-the-pretty-fish. I would imagine that this is not an uncommon scenario. I have found that since completing RD this qualification opens more doors throughout the diving fraternity in this country. Perhaps had I been a Rescue Diver at the time then the jokes about "PADI numpties" would have bothered me less. As it was I was very conscious both of how new a diver I was and of not wishing to be the butt of those jokes given my limited experience - I just wanted to learn more and dive more. But I didn't want to take that very limited experience into an environment where it (and therefore by extension, I) was seemed very likely to be singled out and held up to ridicule. It would have felt like a GSCE Cookery student being asked to cook for Gordon Ramsay! Diving is something I do for pleasure, and that would NOT have been much fun! For what it is worth, any diver (BSAC or otherwise) who tried that on me these days would find themselves mocked amicably in return. But that comes with a level of confidence (and hopefully competence) that I simply didn't have the experience to possess at the time. I guess the point of my original post is to ask people to question how they would welcome an inxperienced AOW diver who got in touch? I would imagine that it is people at that level who are most in need of the help, advice and expertise of the BSAC. Equally I would imagine that these are the people who are most likely to be put off the organisation.

Keith - Thanks for your kind words. I'm glad that you found my post to be of use.

As far as "that?s MY fault as I?m supposed to be the forum moderator. Sorry about that" goes...how shall I put this? I can see that you have your hands full with some of the characters here! And I don't dispute that the BSAC offers high quality training and the opportunity to dive regularly. Both of which are highly laudable.

With reference to your offer to help me in finding a BSAC club, that's very generous and much appreciated. I hope this next isn't going to sound ungrateful, but I am largely sorted in terms of diving companions now. I don't want to turn this into an advert, but I have met a lot of people through the YD site (www.yorkshire-divers.co.uk) who have become both dive buddies and friends. I found that to be a place where your training agency genuinely is immaterial, and that's exactly the approach I was looking for. Every time I have wanted to sort out a weekend diving I have been able to with those guys (so far this year I've got in about 40 UK dives). Many more and my non diving friends and family would be considering murder! I would love to take you up on your offer to research a PADI friendly local club, but have to confess that whilst I might pop along to a club night one night when I am free (hey eveyone likes to talk about kit, right?!), I'd be very unlikely to join. I really am sorted for diving trips / buddies through YD and other friends. My post was more aimed at making things simpler for those who might be following in my investigative footsteps!

As far as where I dive.... hmm, I live in Cheltenham but will go pretty much anywhere that'll have me - so far this year Plymouth, Nr Torquay, Sound of Mull, St Abbs, Capernwray, Stoney etc etc. You get the picture! It would be good to meet you for a dip, hope to bump into you at a dive site sometime! I'll drop you that email as well.

Bren - What is it they say about bad pennies always turning up mate ;-)?! See you in Anglesey & looking forward to it!

Once again, to you all, thanks for your indulgence and your responses!

All the best
Helen

[Alan Ewart]

Hi Helen,

Thanks for your really interesting, balanced and thoughtful post. I thought I would just drop a note with my very different experience.

I learned to dive through PADI last year. I did the OW & AOW courses back to back whilst on holiday and then came back to the UK eager to dive as much as possible. I joined a dive club attached to a local PADI School and managed a few dives at Swanage, Horsea etc. As we came into this season I found it quite difficult to find buddies and those who wanted to dive were like me very inexperienced. Nothing wrong with that but I really wanted to be diving with more experienced divers, people I could learn from and who would be willing to teach me.

I had been lucky enough to meet some divers from 2 local BSAC branches (Bournemouth & Poole BSAC 006 & Winfrith Sub-aqua club) whilst I was on holiday and on my courses. Far from treating me as a numpty the people from both these branches gave me adresses, phone numbers & e-mail addresses and invited me to come & dive with them when I got home.

I remembered that and as a result had a browse around on this website (a terrific resource by the way). I found a branch very local to me and made contact. I must admit I had heard a few comments about some BSAC branches being PADI unfriendly so I was a little apprehensive. My apprehension was blown away in about 2 minutes flat.

The membership Secretary and Diving officer of the branch (Poole Dam Divers BSAC 1924) contacted me very quickly and simply invited me to come diving and meet the members. I found a very friendly atmosphere and a real willingness to help. I decided to join the branch and 'cross over' to BSAC. Since then a number of people have invested a considerable amount of time in me and I feel my diving has developed tremendously in a fairly short time. So for me, the experience has been a 100% positive one.

That said I guess there are dinosaurs and rude people in every walk of life, I'm sure BSAC includes some in it's membership.

I hope you continue to enjoy your diving.

Keep safe & warm.

Regards

Alan


I've been pondering about posting this for a while, as I suspect that it won't take long for me to be shot down in flames. But I think that the BSAC is a genuinely laudable and worthwhile institution, and consequently worth some time in feeding back my thoughts.

About 12 months ago, as a then PADI AOW with a limited amount of UK dives under my belt, I was looking for three things:
1) The opportunity to get further high quality training in UK waters
2) The opportunity for regular diving in this country
3) A lively diving internet forum with a warm welcome, educational chat and a sense of humour.

The obvious place for me to turn was the BSAC. I registered with a number of websites at the time, and spent a couple of weeks reading and watching without ever posting. I am the same HelenM who also appears on a couple of other diving web forums which you may or may not be familiar with.

This is actually my first post on this site - and as I have said, it is nearly twelve months after I had set up the account. I am not a member of BSAC, and now have absolutely no intention of joining. Appreciate that you might find me posting here both inflammatory and offensive, but I hope that you are able to put that to one side and examine my reasons for not joining your organisation.

Lat year I spent some time reading the posts on this forum, and came to the following conclusions:

1) As a PADI trained diver I would be deemed something of a second class citizen. There were any number of patronising jokes and there seems to be a real 'them and us' culture prevailing. I think that that is a shame, and a genuine missed opportunity - how many other divers in my situation have been put off? Like it or not, a sizeable proportion of the divers in this country will be trained by PADI. At some point they may take a look at joining the BSAC, and I have to tell you that from this perspective BSAC is not a welcoming organisation to join. (For what it is worth, this impression has since been validated by any number of BSAC divers whom I encountered on a Red Sea liveaboard since this period. Not least the Dive Leader who began interrogating me about what depth 'Rescue Diver' permitted me to dive to. As I am sure that a number of you are aware, completion of the PADI Rescue Diver course does not change the depth you are qualified to. My explanation of that was greeted with sneers). Different doesn't always mean better OR worse you know, sometimes it's just... different!

2) This forum does not encourage reasoned and rational debate. It appears to be a hostile and argumentative place, with loud voices shouting just for the sake of it, rather than because they necessarily have anything of value to offer. More than anything else this put me off your organisation. A friend who is a member of BSAC directed me back here recently, and I have to say that it seems that little or nothing has changed on this front.

I have absolutely no hidden agenda in passing on this feedback. I guess that my purpose in posting here is twofold. Firstly I hope that there are enough senior people in BSAC reading this who are cool headed enough to sit back and recognise that they need to show leadership to the rest of the divers in the organisation, and provide a genuine and warm welcome to newcomers, irrespective of where they have come from. If you feel that there are gaps in the training which that individual may have received, then take the opportunity to fill those gaps - don't patronise the diver because of them. And secondly, perhaps it might be worth people realising that when you post on this site, you don't know all of your audience, and petty -and frankly often abusive - scraps such as those found here regularly are not the way to encourage growth of your membership.

I don't mean this post to be offensive - I genuinely don't. I do believe that BSAC has a huge amount to offer divers. I simply thought you might find some value in hearing why one individual - at least - elected not to join you. It's usually the ones who get away that you never hear from after all!

Kind regards, (honestly!)
Helen

[Nigel Hewitt]

Oi! I heard that!! Please bear in mind that we do not have a sense of humour and it is a well established fact that Council members never go diving. Please be careful when posting such disgraceful slurs about forum members ;-)

Don't kid me. I know you dive. Maybe not recently but I remember when I was a new PADI AOW having just got my first dry suit we dived the Portland Hood.

OK maybe diving the Hood dates it a bit and then so might AOW.

nigelH
IANTD Trimix CCR

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Thanks for the reply Helen, only a couple of bits I?ll comment on ?

At the time I was looking at BSAC I was only AOW. I had completed a referral course for my Open Water course in sunnier climes, and had done my AOW in the UK as a way of being introduced to UK conditions under the guidance of an instructor. I had a grand(!) total of 4 UK dives?
I guess the point of my original post is to ask people to question how they would welcome an inxperienced AOW diver who got in touch?

That explains a lot, I?ve seen problems with this myself. The problem is that the AOW course is very often oversold, many times I have seen it being sold as ?do this course, it will make you an Advanced Diver??. It isn?t, it?s an experience course as the PADI literature and your card will tell you. PADI AOW equates to our Ocean Diver, the very first diving qualification that we award. The fault here is often with the students expectations rather than with the BSAC welcome, they get upset because they feel that we are anti-PADI when we tell them that it?s only a basic qualification when they have been told that they are an ?Advanced Diver?!

That?s not an excuse, but it is a possible reason why you felt you were being treated as a ?lowly PADI diver? by somebody who has probably been sworn at and insulted in the past by somebody with an AOW card demanding to know why they can?t go on the clubs 30m wreck dive that weekend! I shouldn?t happen but it does, I can only apologise on behalf of the club if you feel that it happened to you.

Keith - Thanks for your kind words. I'm glad that you found my post to be of use.

I didn?t find it useful personally Helen, you?re preaching to the converted here :-) But I sincerely hope that it is useful to some ? if you want to grow your club, get more dedicated members, then you DON?T do it by scaring them off! There are many, many branches in our club that have grown and thrived by welcoming divers of all grades from all agencies for what they are ? just divers. Many clubs go out and specifically target PADI (and other) divers to come and join them, they are well trained and many of our instructors would rather build on that than have to teach the basics. A healthy and thriving club with a whole mix of divers all diving together is the result. It?s these ?pre trained? cross over divers that are a large part of our future IMHO, that?s why I get annoyed when people like you are treated badly!

With reference to your offer to help me in finding a BSAC club, that's very generous and much appreciated. I hope this next isn't going to sound ungrateful, but I am largely sorted in terms of diving companions now.

No problem, I?m glad that you?re sorted. It?s an open offer, take me up on it anytime.

I don't want to turn this into an advert, but I have met a lot of people through the YD site who have become both dive buddies and friends. I found that to be a place where your training agency genuinely is immaterial, and that's exactly the approach I was looking for.

Ahhh? those young upstarts ;-) I bet you?ve been diving with some of the BSAC divers who frequent YD, so you must already know that many of us have an ?agency immaterial? view. May I also suggest the uk.rec.scuba (UKRS) UseNet newsgroup, their web site is on www.ukrecscuba.org.uk, that?s another ?agency immaterial? group, far older than that YD thing and they were coming up for their 100th group dive whilst YD were just getting around to doing their first! UKRS pre-dates even the BSAC forums IIRC, let alone YD. It was started back in 1997 by a recently qualified BSAC Sports Diver and a PADI OWSI who both firmly believed in the ?agency immaterial? ethos that diving should really be all about. So there, you advertise YD and I?ll advertise UKRS :-)

As far as where I dive.... hmm, I live in Cheltenham but will go pretty much anywhere that'll have me - so far this year Plymouth, Nr Torquay, Sound of Mull, St Abbs, Capernwray, Stoney etc etc. You get the picture!

Humf! Doing better than me this year then :-( I?m based over in Essex and mainly dive the s coast around to about Weymouth, further west is a long haul for me! Occasionally do Stoney, especially the UKRS IceBreakers meet (1st weekend of the new year, every year). Maybe you should have a word with that Bren T chappie and get the YD crowd to come and join us next year? We normally get 30 or 40 divers turn up over the weekend but newbies like the YD mob would be more than welcome!

Anyway, thanks for the posts Helen. Many safe and enjoyable dives to you and if we do bump into each other sometime (don?t thump me TOO hard as a BSAC representative) then I?ll buy you a pint/coffe at least.

Cheers

Keith L

[Nigel Hewitt]

&gt;Nigel - Cheers, good to get the perspective of someone who has made the jump across, and pleased to see that it worked well for you. One quick point though:

&gt;&gt;"Your RD qualification will just be a case of "Well she won't be a problem then".

&gt;At the time I was looking at BSAC I was only AOW.

Point. Looking back from an RD perspective you may realise that there is some reason to that. If we dive together in 2 meters vis then you are the only person I have to pull me out if I have a problem. PADI Rescue Diver is good. BSAC Sports Diver is comparable. AOW alone worries me. If that's all you have I'm diving solo if I have a problem. I've done it and I'll do it again but I'm not sure I'd want to assign somebody else as a buddy.

I suspect they put it badly. Some people see problems while others see opportunities. We were gathering in the bar apr?s dive yesterday evening and three PADI AOWs had been directed to find us. Their problem with going diving wasn't their cards but they didn't have much kit yet. Perhaps we just put it differently but the three problems of UK diving: tide, temperature and visibility were just considerations to manage. They were warm water trained but we can help with that. We could have taken three more divers yesterday without even running up the second RIB.

We are a dive club that goes diving. I hope you find one because it beats trying to arrange diving on your own.

nigelH

[dave covey]

I don't mean this post to be offensive - I genuinely don't. I do believe that BSAC has a huge amount to offer divers. I simply thought you might find some value in hearing why one individual - at least - elected not to join you. It's usually the ones who get away that you never hear from after all!


...probably the best post I have ever seen on these boards.The responses that followed the initial post cover all I hoped to say. All I can add (as a BSAC veteran with 20 years exp & with Padi quals) is that I've lost count of the amount of times Padi have assumed a BSAC advanced diver is believed to be on par with a Padi Adv OW diver because of the similar sounding name......

[Andy Wade]

:=I don't mean this post to be offensive - I genuinely don't. I do believe that BSAC has a huge amount to offer divers. I simply thought you might find some value in hearing why one individual - at least - elected not to join you. It's usually the ones who get away that you never hear from after all!


...probably the best post I have ever seen on these boards.The responses that followed the initial post cover all I hoped to say. All I can add (as a BSAC veteran with 20 years exp & with Padi quals) is that I've lost count of the amount of times Padi have assumed a BSAC advanced diver is believed to be on par with a Padi Adv OW diver because of the similar sounding name......



You ought to hear what they say when you're a First Class diver!
;-)

[Bren Tierney]

:=As far as where I dive.... hmm, I live in Cheltenham but will go pretty much anywhere that'll have me - so far this year Plymouth, Nr Torquay, Sound of Mull, St Abbs, Capernwray, Stoney etc etc. You get the picture!

Humf! Doing better than me this year then :-( I?m based over in Essex and mainly dive the s coast around to about Weymouth, further west is a long haul for me! Occasionally do Stoney, especially the UKRS IceBreakers meet (1st weekend of the new year, every year). Maybe you should have a word with that Bren T chappie and get the YD crowd to come and join us next year? We normally get 30 or 40 divers turn up over the weekend but newbies like the YD mob would be more than welcome!



LOL, Keith.

Alas, you speak of time of year which begins with Chrismas Eve-Eve, progresses nicely into Christmas Eve, passes through into Christmas Day, which then segues splendidly into Boxing Day; after which I then take a day off before it's my birthday, which is just a warm-up for New Year's Eve-Eve, then New Year's Eve, followed - with no small irony - by New Year's Day.....any thoughts of diving are serious fleeting ;-) That said, we may be doing the Boxing Day night dive at Devil's Bridge this year.

Cheers,
Bren.

[Helen Butcher]

I'm glad there have been so many well thought out balanced replies to this post as its very true, and more than a little thought provoking!

My humble experience with 1 BSAC club were that they welcomed me with open arms to do my ocean diver course, (as a complete numpty only having done 2 warm water try dives in corfu on holiday!) and have involved me in all club activities. I have gained many good friends and dive buddies, have recieved excellent training, joined extra underwater archeology societies, and am now in charge of organising the club trip to dive the scylla! They are also looking to do the same with one of my work colleagues, and his dad who did the padi ow course in order to get into the water asap and accelerate the training, but are now looking to dive regularly to build their experience.

Our club has a few padi divers who dive as padi divers off the club rib with both padi and bsac divers as buddies (i dived with one the other day and had a really good wall dive) and several padi divers who have converted in order to continue their training within the club at the same time as building experience and learning from the experienced members.

We are however a club with a strong training ethic, and i had to go to a few BSAC clubs to check them out before finding one that suited me - they're all a little different, some being more different than others!

Hope you've not been put off for ever - the club atmosphere is great and adds a lot to my diving - though good friends can be made diving anyway! If you're in cornwall get in touch!

Helen

[MSutcliffe]

One of the issues pulled out in this thread is one regarding depth limits for crossovers.

A PADI AOW is told by PADI that they can dive to 30m. they then decide to join a BSAC club, and they are suddenly limited to 20m. This seems wrong.

I completely agree that these divers should be trained in Rescue skills, and there competency in other parts of the sport diver course should be assessed, however in order to not discourage these individuals from joining, then we should be respecting their 30m qualification (which is an issue to them).

As someone who had 'acted' as DO for a branch over the last year, for the first time, I think it would be better if the crossover training scheme from PADI to BSAC could be more structured, taking into account the training the diver has already recieved, and more importantly the training they HAVE NOT recieved. I have seen DiveMasters' join our branch, and made the assumption that they were probably comptent divers only to discover that they are simly appaling. We should be saying an AOW student is credited with having done compass navigation, and simulated decompresion (all PADI dives should invlude 3mins at 5m), and we should accept their 30m qualfication. A Divermaster crossing to DL should have to demonstrate competencies from the DL course not included in the DM course, such as dSMB deployment, SMB use.

[David Walker]

A PADI AOW is told by PADI that they can dive to 30m. they then decide to join a BSAC club, and they are suddenly limited to 20m. This seems wrong.

Whatever the rules say, if anyone we didn't know joined our club they wouldn't be sent off on a 30m dive til they'd dived with an instructor to see if they'd kill themself (or someone else) down there. OK if they've been doing 50m+ dives in the UK for 10 years then obviously theres not a problem, but if they haven't been diving long, they have little UK experience, or don't have the depth experience etc, then they need to be looked at.
Look at it this way - the branch becomes responsible for their safety while diving with the branch, and so obviously a BSAC club may be a bit more restrictive than diving with a charter boat or something where they only have qualifications to rely on.
I think a lot of what needs to change is a relaxation of the rules, not the other way. For any crossovers they should have a proper dive with a BSAC instructor before being crossed over, and if they aren't up to the standard then that crossover should not be given. I don't care if they're a PADI Master Scuba Instructor, if they can't hold a safety stop then I wouldn't even treat them like a Sports Diver. Just need to let the instructors use their own experience and common sense in judging what level someone is at with their diving - although obviously looking at their qualifications too.

We had someone come in as a PADI RD to our club, never dived most of the year, but then wanted to come on our Plymouth trip - so we got her into Stoney a week or two before, she did a couple of dives, and we were happy for her to do the 30m stuff we had planned - nothing complicated, we didn't make her redo every skill she's ever done in her life, just a quick check of a couple and a nice pootle around. It's all thats needed, not a big list of statements of what crossed to what with what experience and what limits and what skills they need to catch up on, etc etc etc... It'd be useful, but not instead of proper assessment and judgement of an instructor.

David

[david lisk]

Whatever the rules say, if anyone we didn't know joined our club they wouldn't be sent off on a 30m dive til they'd dived with an instructor to see if they'd kill themself

Agreed


I think a lot of what needs to change is a relaxation of the rules, not the other way. For any crossovers they should have a proper dive with a BSAC instructor before being crossed over,

This is not what the current rules say! Check out dives are carried out after joining not before.

There is no BSAC requirement for a checkout dive to be crossed over at the same dive level. I am unsure why branches would wish to introduce their 'own rules' in fact BSAC rules are usually carefully thought out. They only need to do OT1 and OT4 'If they do not wish to do any further training then they simply need to join the branch and BSAC and continue to dive at the comparable BSAC grade.' - "Induction of qualified divers into branches" SALT see link.

Once they are a member then it is prudent (I would say essential) to carry out a check out dive with an instructor.

As BSAC state "Qualified divers from another agency are exactly that 'qualified divers'". They have a right to join, under BSAC rules.

If you do the checkout dive before they join then are you insured as they are not a member?

What if they are a poor diver do you then refuse to let them cross over?

Do you tell them to go away, get some instruction and come back when they are a better diver!

Do you give them further training to bring them up to standard before you will let them join!!!!!(insurance issues)

Proper practice is to cross them over, then do the checkout dives, now they are branch and BSAC members (insured) and if there are any difficiencies work with the individual on improving their skills.

David

[edward haynes]

David

Moved a bit off topic, but I feel some correction is required.

:-As BSAC state "Qualified divers from another agency are exactly that 'qualified divers'". They have a right to join, under BSAC rules.

No, they have a right to apply to join. It?s down to Branch Committees to accept or reject applications; all Branch Bye-Laws should contain this clause.

:-If you do the checkout dive before they join then are you insured as they are not a member?

Yes, the question should be ?Is the prospective member insured?? Read the current insurance FAQ for prospective members. Last time I looked a prospective member was insured for 7 days within a 30-day period, once a year.

:-Proper practice is to cross them over, then do the checkout dives, now they are branch and BSAC members (insured) and if there are any deficiencies work with the individual on improving their skills.

As recommended in the BOH 4.4.9 ?Diving Qualifications Issued by Other Agencies?.

Edward