BOAT HANDLERS & RIB drivers [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

Andy Nye

12-07-2004, 17:12

As it looks like the season has kicked off, and certainly a VERY high number of diver deaths and accidents, it seems to me , that dive boat drivers have all lost a good deal of COMMON SENSE .

FOR [REMOVED] SAKE if your taking out divers , let the COASTGUARD know all your intentions.

YESTERDAY i counted no fewer than 14 dive RIBS, and did any of them call in,,,,,,,, DID THEY [REMOVED]

I was going to a wreck site , just inside the shipping lane....... I saw 4 RIBS all diving on a cluster of 4 wrecks. ONLY ONE was picked up on my radar, when i was well within 1/2 a mile of them ...... ( THOSE of you that have dive with me , have been shown how i can pick up on radar,, a divers head, P Bobber & even a piece of 18 inch sq polystenerene << sp >> ).

ALL i do is call the coastguard when my last set of divers are in,,,,,,,

Call them first on ch 16...... then go to 67.

Info given is .

deployed ** divers in the water .
in position *** Dvr CG **.* miles .
Dive duration will be ** mins.
listen out on ch 16 & 67.

ONCE divers are back ,,,, i let the CG know , telling them all divers are safe and well, and we are making way back to Dover.

WHY , more RIB drivers don't do this , i don't know.....

RANT OVER

((( Oh and the mouthy BSAC diver cox, who used my tools at Dover Harbour, telling me that I knew [REMOVED]all about RIB's and O/B's,,,,,, I bet you now wished you were carrying spare spark plugs and a spanner... ))) ,,, sorry i couldn't tow you back after you broke down, as i don't think i had a tow rope good enough to tow your RIB , plus my dinner was on the table.

NEXT TIME, be more polite & willing to listen to the local dive charter skipper with more years diving and driving boats than your age.

ALL i can say is that you were totally a [REMOVED], and shouldn't be allowed to take 8 divers to sea......... I would trust you to push my NAN round the town in her wheelchair.

[Sorry Andy - sentiment appreciated but a little OTT for many tastes. I've left all of your text, but one or two bits were out-of-bounds. Tone it down just a tad please whilst still making your point. Keith L]

nickjaxe

12-07-2004, 17:48

As it looks like the season has kicked off, and certainly a VERY high number of diver deaths and accidents, it seems to me , that dive boat drivers have all lost a good deal of COMMON SENSE .

FOR [REMOVED] SAKE if your taking out divers , let the COASTGUARD know all your intentions.

YESTERDAY i counted no fewer than 14 dive RIBS, and did any of them call in,,,,,,,, DID THEY [REMOVED]

Gee wizz, the coastgaurd are going to be very very busy now with all these calls as if there not busy enough, have a nice day.

Nick.
I was going to a wreck site , just inside the shipping lane....... I saw 4 RIBS all diving on a cluster of 4 wrecks. ONLY ONE was picked up on my radar, when i was well within 1/2 a mile of them ...... ( THOSE of you that have dive with me , have been shown how i can pick up on radar,, a divers head, P Bobber & even a piece of 18 inch sq polystenerene << sp >> ).

ALL i do is call the coastguard when my last set of divers are in,,,,,,,

Call them first on ch 16...... then go to 67.

Info given is .

deployed ** divers in the water .
in position *** Dvr CG **.* miles .
Dive duration will be ** mins.
listen out on ch 16 & 67.

ONCE divers are back ,,,, i let the CG know , telling them all divers are safe and well, and we are making way back to Dover.

WHY , more RIB drivers don't do this , i don't know.....

RANT OVER

((( Oh and the mouthy BSAC diver cox, who used my tools at Dover Harbour, telling me that I knew [REMOVED]all about RIB's and O/B's,,,,,, I bet you now wished you were carrying spare spark plugs and a spanner... ))) ,,, sorry i couldn't tow you back after you broke down, as i don't think i had a tow rope good enough to tow your RIB , plus my dinner was on the table.

NEXT TIME, be more polite & willing to listen to the local dive charter skipper with more years diving and driving boats than your age.

ALL i can say is that you were totally a [REMOVED], and shouldn't be allowed to take 8 divers to sea......... I would trust you to push my NAN round the town in her wheelchair.

[Sorry Andy - sentiment appreciated but a little OTT for many tastes. I've left all of your text, but one or two bits were out-of-bounds. Tone it down just a tad please whilst still making your point. Keith L]

Adrian Kelland

12-07-2004, 18:44

Gee wizz, the coastgaurd are going to be very very busy now with all these calls as if there not busy enough, have a nice day.

Nick.

Now there's an intelligent response...

I've not yet met a member of the CG who would rather be busy at sea doing a search for a missing diver or worse, than be busy in a nice warm office talking to people on a radio.

What would YOU rather be doing of the two?

Adrian

edward haynes

12-07-2004, 18:49

Gee wizz, the coastgaurd are going to be very very busy now with all these calls as if there not busy enough, have a nice day.

Nick.

It takes just a few seconds.

Here in Scotland the Coastguard are asking ALL shore divers to ring in before and after diving. Why. So they have an idea of the potential location(s) of divers so plans can be made in anticipation of an incident. Like where the helo is to come from and where it can land.

On my Dive-slate I've switched the start and finish diving times with ?contacted Coastguard? and ?called in - all finished" times.

Edward

Andy Nye

12-07-2004, 18:51

Gee wizz, the coastgaurd are going to be very very busy now with all these calls as if there not busy enough, have a nice day.
Nick.

************************************************** *************

Nick ,

The coastguard don't mind any dive boat calling in letting them know what thier intentions are......... HOW MUCH IS SPENT on SAR searches for missing divers each year ??????.

If you want to see a copy of an e:mail from a ( DOVER ) WATCH MANAGER sent to me as a personal e:mail, then e:mail me at the link below and i'll willing forward you a copy. It is also done as a information guide , that i can hand out to visiting dive boats to Dover......

If you read the incident reports and the busy days they have here >>>>> <a href="http://www.dovercoastguard.homestead.com/Index.html" >http://www.dovercoastguard.homestead.com/Index.html</a>
You will see that apart from one RIB that broke down 15 miles offshore , that we have had no other diving accident in this area , ( Dungeness to Ramsgate ) , perhaps my spreading the word helps , who knows.

BUT ONE DAY there will be one hell of a expensive cost to all SAR Units for divers and boats handlers being complete fools... and i don't want to have DIVING get a bad name here, like it has in other parts of the country.

Andy

Andy Nye

12-07-2004, 18:55

:=Gee wizz, the coastgaurd are going to be very very busy now with all these calls as if there not busy enough, have a nice day.
:=
:=Nick.

Now there's an intelligent response...

I've not yet met a member of the CG who would rather be busy at sea doing a search for a missing diver or worse, than be busy in a nice warm office talking to people on a radio.

What would YOU rather be doing of the two?

Adrian

************************************************** ************

The CG are spending millions on prevention rather than cure over the next 5 years, and doing a lot of ' IN HOUSE ' work related performance figures......

I agree to your comment **:=Now there's an intelligent response... **

But don't want to add a remark as KL has his [ REMOVED ] button working again ;-) [Thanks Andy - appreciated. K]

Andy Nye

12-07-2004, 19:32

27th June
Coastguards at Dover received a Radio Mayday signal from the Motor Cruiser Greensleeves with six people on board. Two miles off Dungeness the vessel was in rough water and in danger of being blown onto shore when the engines failed. The six people on board were by now suffering the effects of sea sickness. Littlestone Lifeboat on exercise was diverted to join the Dungeness Lifeboat and Coast Rescue Team. Units rushed to the scene to discover a very miserable party on board the Greensleeves. The Dungeness Lifeboat towed the vessel to Hastings, the Hastings Lifeboat took over the tow and continued to Sovereign Harbour Eastbourne. After investigation it was discovered that the vessel had run low on fuel and the pumps were sucking air when the motion of the boat took fuel away from the pumps.
This skipper would not of made it back to Eastbourne without assistance, once again highlighting the inability of a person responsibile for others.

Perhaps next years MCA safety campaign should focus of providing training for small boat skippers.

Andy Nye

12-07-2004, 19:39

12-07-2004, 20:30

Andy
You are abusing this forum, you must be polite and not use bad language nor should you speak of the events of our Coastguard as this can only be hearsay or secondhand information.
In fact you blur the good stuff in your mail with the trash you seem always to have to include, poor old Keith must be pretty weary of all the work he has to do in ensuring your post is reasonable.
Why not cut the trash and just pass on the good information and advice that you have gained over the years.

Best
JP

27th June
Coastguards at Dover received a Radio Mayday signal from the Motor Cruiser Greensleeves with six people on board. Two miles off Dungeness the vessel was in rough water and in danger of being blown onto shore when the engines failed. The six people on board were by now suffering the effects of sea sickness. Littlestone Lifeboat on exercise was diverted to join the Dungeness Lifeboat and Coast Rescue Team. Units rushed to the scene to discover a very miserable party on board the Greensleeves. The Dungeness Lifeboat towed the vessel to Hastings, the Hastings Lifeboat took over the tow and continued to Sovereign Harbour Eastbourne. After investigation it was discovered that the vessel had run low on fuel and the pumps were sucking air when the motion of the boat took fuel away from the pumps.
This skipper would not of made it back to Eastbourne without assistance, once again highlighting the inability of a person responsibile for others.

Perhaps next years MCA safety campaign should focus of providing training for small boat skippers.

David Walker

12-07-2004, 21:04

This skipper would not of made it back to Eastbourne without assistance, once again highlighting the inability of a person responsibile for others.

There are hundreds of boats everywhere that have technical problems and can't get back to port without assistance. Many are non-professionals (clearly if we're using a boat twice a year we're not going to have so much equipment and experience as someone who is out every day of the week!), but I know of charter boats who have had problems too... and supertankers! Obviously you'd like everyone to scrap their RIBs and pay you instead, but if you consider the number of RIBs out and about the number of problems is still very low.

David

Chris Cherrington

12-07-2004, 21:12

It is my understanding you pilot or skipper a boat and "drive" a car...

Chris

Andy Nye

12-07-2004, 21:40

JP..
You are abusing this forum," Can't really see where ".
You must be polite and not use bad language " NOTED by KL the FORUM MODERATOR "
nor should you speak of the events of our Coastguard as this can only be hearsay or secondhand information." AS taken from the DOVER CG WEBSITE "
Why not cut the trash and just pass on the good information and advice that you have gained over the years.

JOHN,

You have known me for many years and know my background.
NOW you quoted " Why not cut the trash and just pass on the good information and advice that you have gained over the years."

I was offering my toolbox from my OWN BOAT,to this dive cox, whilst stood there helping and giving advice on his outboard,all in a heavy shower,,,,,, I even offered his divers HOT DRINKS FREE OF CHARGE as they were wet and cold, even one was offered a waterproof jacket ......
He loved using my tools as he hadn't none of his own ( noticed that the boat had no tool box at all ) NOW surely going to sea, even YOU would carry a spark plug spanner and a set of spare plugs ready for use.

All this chap could offer was cheap / tacky insults. HE PUT THE LIVES OF HIS DIVERS AT RISK, IMHO....

So YES " just pass on the good information and advice that you have gained over the years. " I think you are right , i did pass on info.

But this chap was bouncing his pram off mothercares window while i was bouncing RIB's off beaches ( for a living ), so all his years and experience was far better than mine, IN YOUR EYES.
I SUGGEST before flaming me again , that you re-read the first thread and other comments.

Reading your comments makes me think that i should have just sat in my wheel house drinking coffee keeping warm and dry, INSTEAD of offering some help.

**** The outcome was that his RIB broke down and was towed in by another from what i understand, LUCKY for him there was a few RIBS about and the SEA was like a mirror . MAY have been a different story otherwise *****

ATB

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

12-07-2004, 21:46

Andy
You are abusing this forum, you must be polite and not use bad language nor should you speak of the events of our Coastguard as this can only be hearsay or secondhand information.
In fact you blur the good stuff in your mail with the trash you seem always to have to include, poor old Keith must be pretty weary of all the work he has to do in ensuring your post is reasonable.
Why not cut the trash and just pass on the good information and advice that you have gained over the years.

Best
JP

Thanks for the backing John, that is exactly the point that I was trying to make. Andy makes some very valid contributions to the forums IMHO, but does occasionally go over-the-top. NOBODY, no matter how valid, how good the information, is going to use abusive or inappropriate language and references on these forums whilst I am responsible for them. Those are my rules, get somebody else to do the job if you don't like them.

So PLEASE, everybody - you may use these forums for any comments, suggestions or criticisms that you may have. But you will do it in a polite and calm manner or not at all, I will not hesitate to edit or even delete comments that I deem inappropriate. Please also bear in mind that abusive or "rant" comments can alienate your audience, if you are not careful the words can hide the message that you are trying to convey.

So keep it up, keep the comments coming - but do it politely please.

Keith L

Andy Nye

12-07-2004, 22:08

Obviously you'd like everyone to scrap their RIBs and pay you instead, but if you consider the number of RIBs out and about the number of problems is still very low.

************************************************** *************

Ermmmmmmmm Having bookings into 2008, doesn't look like i'm on the forum having a pop at RIB's dive boats to gain customers.

My customers use TAURUS DIVING for the BOAT, SKIPPER & SERVICE provided, as a lot of readers on this forum that USE me will vouch for.

ONLY today a local dive club had a hydrolic hose go on thier steering , within 25 minutes they were on my boat off for a dive, and there were only 4 divers.

The BOAT provided them lots of room for kitting up, got them to the dive site & back safely at 19 knots, let them have a PEE in private.

The Skipper gave up other plans just to make sure these divers got a dive,got them on the dive site with 5 minutes to slack.

The SERVICE, skipper and crewman ( Work Experienced lad from a school ) help them lift kit and get them kitted up, supplied them with as much FREE hot drinks they could down, help them de-kit once off the ladder.

You quoted " Obviously you'd like everyone to scrap their RIBs and pay you instead, "

NO , think not.....

Ian Barrie

12-07-2004, 22:30

Got to agree with Andy and others on this thread. The Coastguard should know, and wants to know, where and when diving is taking place. They want to know how many divers have gone in and when they've all come out. They also know many of the charter skippers and RIB users and can call on them for info and help during any occurrence at sea. Like most jobs, the more information they have the more effective and efficient they operate.

Steve Walker

12-07-2004, 22:35

((( Oh and the mouthy BSAC diver cox, who used my tools at Dover Harbour, telling me that I knew [REMOVED]all about RIB's and O/B's,,,,,, I bet you now wished you were carrying spare spark plugs and a spanner... ))) ,,, sorry i couldn't tow you back after you broke down, as i don't think i had a tow rope good enough to tow your RIB , plus my dinner was on the table.

NEXT TIME, be more polite & willing to listen to the local dive charter skipper with more years diving and driving boats than your age.

Sounds like you missed an ideal opportunity Andy, pound to a penny he wouldn't know the "my rope my salvage" rule :-)))

Andy Nye

13-07-2004, 00:24

Sounds like you missed an ideal opportunity Andy, pound to a penny he wouldn't know the "my rope my salvage" rule :-)))

:-) @ you Steve,,,, And YES i do have a LLOYDS OPEN FORM on the boat somewhere .

;-) damm a 1/3 of the RIB, Dive Kit ,,,,,, christ, could have had the rest of this month off.

Nigel Hewitt

13-07-2004, 07:05

My customers use TAURUS DIVING for the BOAT, SKIPPER & SERVICE provided, as a lot of readers on this forum that USE me will vouch for.

But why should we trust a man who looses his cool so badly that he is still swearing about it hours later on a web forum? It doesn't engender confidence in me.

nigelH

Steve Walker

13-07-2004, 11:20

:=My customers use TAURUS DIVING for the BOAT, SKIPPER & SERVICE provided, as a lot of readers on this forum that USE me will vouch for.

But why should we trust a man who looses his cool so badly that he is still swearing about it hours later on a web forum? It doesn't engender confidence in me.

nigelH

To borrow your oft quoted phrase Nigel, [shrug]

Maybe it's just me but I don't expect a rufty-tufty ex-para and ex-commercial diver to have the eloquence of vocabulary I would expect from, eg one of my academic colleagues.

Keith has edited the language out, and the real issue remains - there are a lot of unsafe practices going on and there is an increasing body count to match (far in excess of last years total of eleven).

I haven't dived from Andy's boat but plenty of my non-BSAC dive buddies have, and I haven't heard of anyone getting put off by some colourful vocabulary, and I think a man who's risked life and limb for his country (and I understand been decorated for such) is entitled to a bit of leeway when to comes to the odd bit of emotive language.
Regards

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

13-07-2004, 12:21

I haven't dived from Andy's boat but plenty of my non-BSAC dive buddies have, and I haven't heard of anyone getting put off by some colourful vocabulary, and I think a man who's risked life and limb for his country (and I understand been decorated for such) is entitled to a bit of leeway when to comes to the odd bit of emotive language.

Steve, quite frankly I don't give a damn about Andy's past - NOBODY, I repeat - NOBODY is going to use these forums for abusive and insulting language, there are no exceptions. That's my bottom line.

The point that Nigel was trying to make was a very, very valid one - ranting and swearing can mask the real message, it is counter productive. Excuses are not required, you will not be able to come up one that will satisfy me anyway, because in my book it is unacceptable.

Andy made a very valid point, but my (and Nigel's) point is that it could have been far better made and reached a wider audience WITHOUT the ranting and swearing. Now you and Andy will either have to accept that or we will agree to differ. But there can be no compromises on the basic principles on which I moderate these forums.

My point has already been proved I think, there are now posts "off topic" beacuse of the way that the message was delivered. I rest my case.

Keith L

Nigel Hewitt

13-07-2004, 13:03

The point that Nigel was trying to make was a very, very valid one - ranting and swearing can mask the real message, it is counter productive.

Well not quite my point. The delivery was a more powerful message than the intended content. It's just that I like my surface cover to be clear headed not all wound up by other things going on around. I don't care if somebody swears like Woody (Our-W, Weymouth) provided it's not symptomatic of an emotional state. I've dived Taurus but before Andy took it over and it's a good boat but I worry about skippers being calm and together as the casualty needing help might be me. It may be that Andy was just using emotive language to reinforce his point but if he was really that mad hours later how did he feel at the time? This just is not good PR and I charter boats as part of the UKRS trips cabal so I have to worry about these things.

nigelH

PeteM

13-07-2004, 13:35

Well not quite my point. The delivery was a more powerful message than the intended content. It's just that I like my surface cover to be clear headed not all wound up by other things going on around. I don't care if somebody swears like Woody (Our-W, Weymouth) provided it's not symptomatic of an emotional state. I've dived Taurus but before Andy took it over and it's a good boat but I worry about skippers being calm and together as the casualty needing help might be me. It may be that Andy was just using emotive language to reinforce his point but if he was really that mad hours later how did he feel at the time? This just is not good PR and I charter boats as part of the UKRS trips cabal so I have to worry about these things.

I've dived with Andy and my impression is there would not be a problem in an emergency. I think Andy is one of those guy's who likes to call a spade a f****** spade.

He is very switched on on safety and I think it really winds him up when other people seem to take it lightly, he has also done body recoveries around Dover (although I don't think of divers) and that is bound to colour your judgement and may lead to the use of over emotive language

P

steve parry

13-07-2004, 13:48

I read the thread with interest... good starting point but as
always what are the diving authority (BS-AC) going to learn from
all the spleen venting etc ?

Obviously there is a weakness in radio based training and
dive boat procedures ? I just looked at the BS-AC Boat handling
syllabus and radio usage/reporting.... nothing sprang out at me.
(just confirming the radioless memories of my own BH SDC from
some years ago had not been updated.

I also did a RYA GMDSS SR cert. But this is aimed at general
users not diver cox'ns- so a gap here as well re. BH skills.

I suspect boat handling & related skills are being erroded as more divers migrate to hard boats because (a) it's more convienient and (b) divers have more disposable income which
means the dependancy & standards of operation of the club RIB can easily (but not in all instances) slip.

It might be useful for BS-AC to include a factsheet on radio
use in terms of reporting/ conveying essential information
to solve the highlighted problem ?

I've even been told by other (& aledgedly more knowlegable
BH'ers -very few do the cox'n assement)that the CG is so
busy these days they don't even like you requesting a radio
check ! (i'll treat that with the contempt I believe the comment deserves)

As for mechanics on the high sea- well that's annother sbject
but again dare I say it a sad reflection of the times and maybe
a diplomatic refresher is needed ?

A good idea may be to include more useful factual articles
via Dive magazine ? Too many adverts and synicated 'fluff
stories' for my tastes. (don't tell me- thats commercial reality)

Don't forget many people learned to dive
and boathandle many years ago and consider thier many years
of training means they are above any form of refresher training
or training when changes are afoot (SOLAS 5 updates/ MCA )
a prime examples of where commercial skippers have been made to jump through hoops but clubs seem on the face of it to embrace/ adapt as they see fit.

I remember that at the last BS-AC D.O. coference it was mentioned that the BS-AC BH & Cox'n SDC's were being revised
& updated- maybe the new SDC's will address the reported
lack of skill(s) ?

Steve Parry

Chairman

Luton BS-AC/ branch 105

Steve Walker

13-07-2004, 13:52

Steve, quite frankly I don't give a damn about Andy's past - NOBODY, I repeat - NOBODY is going to use these forums for abusive and insulting language, there are no exceptions. That's my bottom line.

Now who's being emotive?
Did I say I approved of bad language in this forum? No, I certainly did not, nor would I, as I don't wish to read language on a forum I would not put into print myself. Nor have I ever been unsupportive of your moderator position when people have pulled out the tired old criticisms of "forum censorship".
Nor am I in the habit of making excuse for other people's behaviour, I just choose not to let these things bother me to the point that others do.

However, once again a solid point is being ignored because people actively choose to fixate upon emotive languge long after the initial post, it is only counter-productive because people choose to fixate upon this and ignore the important message. Sadly I find that happening all too frequently on this forum, much to it's detriment.

And for Nigel, who normally contributes far better comments, to suggest that being in a bad mood hours after an event equates to that skipper being potentially unreliable in a crisis, is risible. My point about Andy's history is that I'd trust him when things hit the fan.

Incidentally, as this has now turned into a critique of forum language useage, there are no degrees when dealing with absolutes in the English language, a point is either valid or invalid and cannot be quantified with degrees of validity.

May as well lock this topic Keith as no-one is actually taking any interest in discussing the poor boating practices which Andy's original post was intended to highlight.

Regards
Steve W

13-07-2004, 13:53

Now Keith, everyone has an emotional moment and uses colourful language at times. I recall a very recent posting on the UKRS group from you that used far from polite language. Lighten up!

Nigel Hewitt

13-07-2004, 14:04

I've dived with Andy and my impression is there would not be a problem in an emergency. I think Andy is one of those guy's who likes to call a spade a f****** spade.

He is very switched on on safety and I think it really winds him up when other people seem to take it lightly, he has also done body recoveries around Dover (although I don't think of divers) and that is bound to colour your judgement and may lead to the use of over emotive language

This is good news as I liked Taurus as a platform and provided you can starnd the vis there are some very interesting things off Dover.

nigelH

Finless

13-07-2004, 14:25

....I will not hesitate to edit or even delete comments that I deem inappropriate ......"

Keith,

I sympathise with your concerns about keeping the forum "reasonable" BUT that sentence could have been worded better.

For what it is worth I don't find Andy's language offensive and the fact that he is using it over a serious point is an indication of the strenght of his feeling on the subject.

Try not to catch Censorship Elbow.

Rgds

Finless

13-07-2004, 15:03

For any doubting Thomas out there (not me - I believe Andy), I rang the Dover Coastguard and his response to the question "would you like private/club dive RIBS/boats to call you with leave time, where and confirmed as back again" he said "Yes - definitely".

Tel Number is 01304 210 008.

John Williams

13-07-2004, 15:08

Try not to catch Censorship Elbow.

Although I doo feel that KL has been a bit "keen" of late - his (and JPs) comments about Andy Nye are bang on the mark.

Andy clearly has a lot to offer.
Profanity and traded insults are not positive.

Andy - please make you point. Do it without the rant, and do it with reasons ...please show us a better way!

Remember that people who are shown a better way often adopt it as their own. People who are bullied will ALWAYS resist!

What are your goals....please think about the most effective way to acheive them.

Keith - please keep these fora polite and constructive.

John

Andy Nye

13-07-2004, 18:23

It is my understanding you pilot or skipper a boat and "drive" a car...

Chris

:-)

Skipper of a RIB doesn't sound right, nor does a Pilot.

COXSWAIN is someone that is in command of a DISPLACEMENT VESSEL.
HELMSMAN is someone that is in command of a NON DISPLACEMENT VESSEL.

Think of the RNLI,,,, A Big offshore lifeboat has a COXSWAIN, the little inflatables / RIB's Have HELMSMAN.

SKIPPER is a general name of anyone in command of a HARD BOAT,,,If my 8 year old is at the wheel , HE IS NOT A SKIPPER,,, He is not plioting the boat........ HE is DRIVING IT.

Andy ;-)

David Walker

13-07-2004, 19:15

However, once again a solid point is being ignored because people actively choose to fixate upon emotive languge long after the initial post, it is only counter-productive because people choose to fixate upon this and ignore the important message. Sadly I find that happening all too frequently on this forum, much to it's detriment.

So OK - look at the first post again, what exactly was it about?:

Boat drivers have no common sense
Let the coastguard know what you're doing
Bit more pointless moaning
Pointless drivel about radar
"Look how good I am"
RIB drivers are rubbish
Moaning about a single person in a way where it clearly is trying to generalise to any BSAC Cox.
"Look how good I am"
You're all dangerous

Now, there is a good point in there - "let the coastguard know what you're doing". But frankly if he decides to wrap a message in junk then the message is lost! Yes boats are recommended to call into the CG when they go out, but it's not compulsory. A little "did you know that the CG like dive boats to call in when they're going out and let them know what they're doing" would be far more productive - everything else was unnecessary!
And Andy, if you are going to complain about a single BSAC Cox, please don't write it in a way where you are clearly suggesting that it is typical of all of them! What you are actually complaining about there is that someone was rude to you - the fact that he was from BSAC (or even in a boat at all) was completely irrelevant. Like I montioned before, a small RIB can't carry everything it could possibly need in the event of a breakdown - RIBs break down, so do charter boats, so do cruise ships and supertankers. No one in invulnerable, including you! Can you say that there are no circumstances where you may need the help of another boat or the CG? Let's hope not, because if you find the only help is a RIB with a BSAC Cox on then you haven't don't much to make them want to help you!

David

Mike Halligan

13-07-2004, 19:55

Andy,

I plead "guilty as charged", but not more than 10% of the time. :-)

Your opinion, conditioned by the busy waters of the Straits, is valuable - though it may seem extreme to others.

HMCG always accepts safety information, unless 16 is particularly busy or there is a big issue at that moment. They actively encourage routine safety traffic. It aids them in an emergency to know who else is capable of making the scene of an incident. As you've pointed up, always clear your call at the end of the trip.

Though taught on BSAC BH courses, use of HMCG seems neglected. Perhaps that's because it normally entails Marine VHF. Too few of us are trained in VHF and too many of us are frankly frightened of broadcasting (though you wouldn't think so from this thread).

Regards,

Mike

Andy Nye

13-07-2004, 20:16

Boat drivers have no common sense <<<< Where did I write that.
Let the coastguard know what you're doing<< Great Idea
Bit more pointless moaning << To YOU maybe
Pointless drivel about radar << Maybe if a RADAR was fitted to the 'A'Frame, perhaps a target would be seen on MY radar and everyone elses, GOOD job there was no SEA FOG that creeps up on us here.( BUT as your NOT a local , you wouldn't know that )
"Look how good I am"<<< Personal dig.
RIB drivers are rubbish<<< His driving looked fine in a calm sea, but needed work in CQS,thats in marina's to you.
Moaning about a single person in a way where it clearly is trying to generalise to any BSAC Cox.<<< Was I hell, if i want to FLAME BSAC and the COX course i will. BUT this cox didn't listen to the part of the course about safety and carrying spares and tools.
"Look how good I am"<<< YAWN
You're all dangerous<<<< can't SEE where i wrote that,

Now, there is a good point in there - "let the coastguard know what you're doing". But frankly if he decides to wrap a message in junk then the message is lost! Yes boats are recommended to call into the CG when they go out, but it's not compulsory. A little "did you know that the CG like dive boats to call in when they're going out and let them know what they're doing" would be far more productive - everything else was unnecessary!

So BSAC never taught you that lessons,have a START - MIDDLE - END ??????

Like I montioned before, a small RIB can't carry everything it could possibly need in the event of a breakdown
*** Most find a way of carrying the simple spares in a dry box hung on the 'A' Frame ***

RIBs break down, so do charter boats, so do cruise ships and supertankers. No one in invulnerable, including you!
*** I agree with you WHOLE HEARTLY on this one.... But tankers, crusie ships, tanklers and charter boats carry spares and TOOLS *** ONLY the other week , my THROTTLE CABLE snapped, but me being me, had a spare on board to get me home after drifting for 20 minutes.

Can you say that there are no circumstances where you may need the help of another boat or the CG? Let's hope not, because if you find the only help is a RIB with a BSAC Cox on then you haven't don't much to make them want to help you!
*** My best mate is a BSAC Dive boat handler, and he and his club will help me , as they know that i will help them no matter what....... they even use my boat as a cafe...... and when they are at work, they know that someone is watching thier boats in the marina ( ME ) when a gale of wind is blowing.

SO , Get off your high horse a bit and see what you CAN learn by this thread.

OH, and if you will let me , i will e:mail you a chartlet of the DIVE SITE used by the shipping lane, and place where these RIBS were sat over wrecks....... Then i will show you how BIG ship's come down the edge of the lane to keep enough water under thier keels to advoid the VARNE BANK. THAT why RADAR REFLECTORS are a MUST, coz as you know that a big ship soon jumps on you very quick whislt steaming down at 25 kts, BYE BYE BOAT that is not seen on RADAR.

ENUFF said

Steve Summers

13-07-2004, 21:03

To add my 2pennorth any advice that can reduce the number of incidents has to applauded not lambasted, I for one am more offended that I have to wait another 6 months to train my Son in our branch than I am about any profanities uttered on a forum.

And a note to anyone questioning Andy's safety conciousness a buddy and I went out for a dive with Taurus earlier this year and as we reached the dive site a heavy swell came and spun the boat Andy said he would not dive in those conditions and that was enough [and a relief] for me.
I have been on dive boats where they will not call a dive to avoid returning money so his attitude was very refreshing.

Safe diving,
Steve S
DO Heanor 0543

angus

13-07-2004, 21:57

But why should we trust a man who looses his cool so badly that he is still swearing about it hours later on a web forum? It doesn't engender confidence in me.

nigelH

I've dived off Taurus with Andy a number of times and I have every confidence in him as a skipper and as a diver.

He is also a top bloke and serves up the best doughnuts in the South East. ;)

Finless

14-07-2004, 10:51

(though you wouldn't think so from this thread).

Mike,

Anonymity makes us braver - well, it certainly does me. Beer works too.

Bryan

Finless

14-07-2004, 11:00

I've dived off Taurus with Andy a number of times and I have every confidence in him as a skipper and as a diver.

He is also a top bloke and serves up the best doughnuts in the South East. ;)

Now you are talking complete and utter rubbish !!!!!!!! I would put some of the Brighton doughnuts up in a competitiion any time.

I am sure everything else you say is true as Andy's reputation precedes him - I hope to travel to foreign parts one day and try a dive out of Dover on Andy's boat.

14-07-2004, 18:06

Andy
Your right we have known each other a while, and we both have lots of stories to tell, these guys are everywhere, they survive in spite of themselve and not because of themselves.

You know that is not what I am talking about, tone down your language and explain in friendly terms where the guy is wrong and all the guys out there will listen and take note. Surely thats what you want, in fact thats what we all want

Just for informatio I had been reading the post on this lot so was up to date with the thread

So in a nutshell, keep the advice coming not the abuse, KL could do with the rest!!!

Be safe
JP

=JP..
You are abusing this forum," Can't really see where ".
You must be polite and not use bad language " NOTED by KL the FORUM MODERATOR "
nor should you speak of the events of our Coastguard as this can only be hearsay or secondhand information." AS taken from the DOVER CG WEBSITE "
Why not cut the trash and just pass on the good information and advice that you have gained over the years.

JOHN,

You have known me for many years and know my background.
NOW you quoted " Why not cut the trash and just pass on the good information and advice that you have gained over the years."

I was offering my toolbox from my OWN BOAT,to this dive cox, whilst stood there helping and giving advice on his outboard,all in a heavy shower,,,,,, I even offered his divers HOT DRINKS FREE OF CHARGE as they were wet and cold, even one was offered a waterproof jacket ......
He loved using my tools as he hadn't none of his own ( noticed that the boat had no tool box at all ) NOW surely going to sea, even YOU would carry a spark plug spanner and a set of spare plugs ready for use.

All this chap could offer was cheap / tacky insults. HE PUT THE LIVES OF HIS DIVERS AT RISK, IMHO....

So YES " just pass on the good information and advice that you have gained over the years. " I think you are right , i did pass on info.

But this chap was bouncing his pram off mothercares window while i was bouncing RIB's off beaches ( for a living ), so all his years and experience was far better than mine, IN YOUR EYES.
I SUGGEST before flaming me again , that you re-read the first thread and other comments.

Reading your comments makes me think that i should have just sat in my wheel house drinking coffee keeping warm and dry, INSTEAD of offering some help.

**** The outcome was that his RIB broke down and was towed in by another from what i understand, LUCKY for him there was a few RIBS about and the SEA was like a mirror . MAY have been a different story otherwise *****

ATB

Paul Oliver

14-07-2004, 22:46

[==REMOVED==]

I've had enough of this. You have added NOTHING to the discussion Paul. Any more rants/and insulting language and I'll lock the thread.

Keith L

Paul Oliver

14-07-2004, 23:00

JP

Andy is explaining facts in simple terms and while i have a lot of sympathy with KL i think you are OTT in criticising Andy for pointing out basic skills and Duty of care issues.

I dive out of Dover as a DO all the time and i know exactly where Andy is coming from on this one.

He is totally right in language and tone for this issue despite KL's Duty of Care to keep it in parameters.

jules c

15-07-2004, 00:05

15-07-2004, 07:15

Paul
I have known Andy a long time, and I know that the bad language etc with have been sent with a smirk, but I know that the info underneath all that is good solid stuff.
My point is that by using bad language it detracts from the "good info" that he is trying to share.
Andy knows this and I am sure agrees with me (but may not admit it on forum)
I don't know you Paul so have no comment to make about your opinions, but I will say this, the guys out there that are not experienced in matters of the sea will probably not take too much notice of a post full of either bad language or editing to remove bad language, on the other hand good solid advice written by an experienced old sea dog that is battered round the edges and encrusted with salt and a DV stuffed permanently in his mouth (except when he is giving out advice) will be read and treated with respect.
That is my point
no more posts on this eh
Be safe
JP

=JP

Andy is explaining facts in simple terms and while i have a lot of sympathy with KL i think you are OTT in criticising Andy for pointing out basic skills and Duty of care issues.

I dive out of Dover as a DO all the time and i know exactly where Andy is coming from on this one.

He is totally right in language and tone for this issue despite KL's Duty of Care to keep it in parameters.