Swimming Pool

[frostage]

Hi all
I wonder if you can help me, i am a member of BSAC club that is based in stockport and we hire a pool for 1 hour a week for training etc. One thing stockport sport trust insist on is having their lifeguards. The result of this is our pool cost's are seriously higher than neighbouring areas which dont insist on lifeguards.
These lifeguards have admitted themselve's they would'nt have a clue what to do if a diver got in trouble, so in effect we are paying for something as a club that is not needed. Other clubs i have been at nominate a sports diver to be the lifeguard weekly,which is what we would like to do.
What i need is ammunition in terms of facts, if your club hires a pool could you let me know if you have to employ the councils lifeguards or not.

f

[Maria CM]

Are any of your divers qualified life guards?

Problem is usually one of insurance in council pools - needs to be an 'employee'

I private hire a few pools from schools etc and those you are OK as long as you have appropriate life saving qualifications in my experience.

best wishes,

Maria

[Gav S]

Hi,

Yes we use a council pool and the lifeguards are required. In fact, this was discussed failry recently (in connection with ideas for saving money) and one of the instructors mentioned that the council had been approached (albeit some years ago) to see if they would accept club intructors, who also had lifesaver qualifications, as pool cover without success.

Then again, the sports centre we use has its staff in for all the other areas/gyms during our pool sessions anyway and need people around to clean up/lock up/etc, so I would be a bit surprised if they agreed to make special arrangements about 2 or 3 pool guards, or to re-deploy them for an hour, to accommodate us.

Saying that, at another pool I used with a different club the club made its own arrangments and the building was merely opened or closed by someone before and after the session - that was a school pool though and no access to random public...

[Gareth]

Hi,

Yes we use a council pool and the lifeguards are required. In fact, this was discussed fairly recently (in connection with ideas for saving money) and one of the instructors mentioned that the council had been approached (albeit some years ago) to see if they would accept club instructors, who also had lifesaver qualifications, as pool cover without success.

Then again, the sports centre we use has its staff in for all the other areas/gyms during our pool sessions anyway and need people around to clean up/lock up/etc, so I would be a bit surprised if they agreed to make special arrangements about 2 or 3 pool guards, or to re-deploy them for an hour, to accommodate us.

Saying that, at another pool I used with a different club the club made its own arrangements and the building was merely opened or closed by someone before and after the session - that was a school pool though and no access to random public...


Gav

Anyone holding a Sports Diver qualification is qualified to act as a pool lifeguard, this complies with Managing Health & Safety in Swimming Pools Guidelines written by both the HSE & the Local Authorities Enforcement Liaison Committee.

See here (http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=1582&sectionTitle=Try Dives and Pool Safety), click on pool safety guidelines.

I would suggest that you use this as part of your opening discussion with the swimming pool management. You may well need to go further & produce risk assessments, & an incident procedure to convince them.

We use a pool at the local recreation centre in St Ives (cambs). The centre is open to the public, we however manage all pool safety issues for our branch, which includes pool Marshall's (lifeguards).
The local pool lifeguards are not familiar with scuba equipment or techniques, & are not qualified to administer oxygen. All of which are reasons they prefer us to provide our own pool Marshall's.

When we used to participate in the annual Round Table day of sports at the recreation centre, we used to provide all the pool Marshall's for the try dive events, even though it was a 'public' event. It is a great shame that this event no longer runs, a casualty of the CRB culture.

Gareth

[Edward]

Gav

Anyone holding a Sports Diver qualification is qualified to act as a pool lifeguard, this complies with Managing Health & Safety in Swimming Pools Guidelines written by both the HSE & the Local Authorities Enforcement Liaison Committee.

See here (http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=1582&sectionTitle=Try Dives and Pool Safety), click on pool safety guidelines.

I would suggest that you use this as part of your opening discussion with the swimming pool management. You may well need to go further & produce risk assessments, & an incident procedure to convince them.


I'd go and ask them if their insurance covers undertaking rescues for activities they are not trained or qualified to undertake. Then you could offer to train the staff, but no the pool isn't suitable because there are no suitably qualified lifeguards.

Being serious, be careful in you negotiations as the pool management might already have a new user lined up and are just looking for an excuse to terminate your sessions.

Regards

Edward

[frostage]

Gav

Anyone holding a Sports Diver qualification is qualified to act as a pool lifeguard, this complies with Managing Health & Safety in Swimming Pools Guidelines written by both the HSE & the Local Authorities Enforcement Liaison Committee.

See here (http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=1582&sectionTitle=Try Dives and Pool Safety), click on pool safety guidelines.

I would suggest that you use this as part of your opening discussion with the swimming pool management. You may well need to go further & produce risk assessments, & an incident procedure to convince them.

We use a pool at the local recreation centre in St Ives (cambs). The centre is open to the public, we however manage all pool safety issues for our branch, which includes pool Marshall's (lifeguards).
The local pool lifeguards are not familiar with scuba equipment or techniques, & are not qualified to administer oxygen. All of which are reasons they prefer us to provide our own pool Marshall's.

When we used to participate in the annual Round Table day of sports at the recreation centre, we used to provide all the pool Marshall's for the try dive events, even though it was a 'public' event. It is a great shame that this event no longer runs, a casualty of the CRB culture.

Gareth

Thanks for your information, it very usefull. If my thinking is right, as the lifeguards are not qualified to carry out any form of recovery on a diver ie oxygen administration this leaves the sports trust liable and divers at risk. I think this is a good angle to start the proceeding's as this is something we are in essence duty bound to inform them of their error's. From what i read on the link you provided, BSAC already provide full risk assesment and covers divers for liability in the pool participating on a number of activities even octopush. Obviously we will have to tread very carefully as from experience council people are more than jobsworth's who enjoy nothing better than to spoil someones fun.

Thanks

f

[whitenoise]

Anyone holding a Sports Diver qualification is qualified to act as a pool lifeguard, this complies with Managing Health & Safety in Swimming Pools Guidelines written by both the HSE & the Local Authorities Enforcement Liaison Committee.

That's what our club has beeing doing for years as well. We hire a pool for an hour from a sports centre attached to a school. There's a yearly rota which has all the clubs sports divers listed and we take it turns to be pool marshal. Basically you just walk round the edge of the pool keeping an eye on divers/swimmers.

[johnskerry]

Hi all
I wonder if you can help me, i am a member of BSAC club that is based in stockport and we hire a pool for 1 hour a week for training etc. One thing stockport sport trust insist on is having their lifeguards. The result of this is our pool cost's are seriously higher than neighbouring areas which dont insist on lifeguards.
These lifeguards have admitted themselve's they would'nt have a clue what to do if a diver got in trouble, so in effect we are paying for something as a club that is not needed. Other clubs i have been at nominate a sports diver to be the lifeguard weekly,which is what we would like to do.
What i need is ammunition in terms of facts, if your club hires a pool could you let me know if you have to employ the councils lifeguards or not.

f
It would seem to me this is just the sort of thing BSAC HQ should be giving assistance on.
I am also a member of another organisation which have contacted local councils where they have not being observant of national guidelines. They have been very successful in changing individual council polices.
This is surly what we pay into BSAC for. A national body will have far more influence than a individual branch, Are they not suppose to be the UKs governing body after all.

John

[TerryH]

It would seem to me this is just the sort of thing BSAC HQ should be giving assistance on.
I am also a member of another organisation which have contacted local councils where they have not being observant of national guidelines. They have been very successful in changing individual council polices.
This is surly what we pay into BSAC for. A national body will have far more influence than a individual branch, Are they not suppose to be the UKs governing body after all.

John

BSAC already have guidelines and published info all agreed by HSE etc. and
with many club/pool/council relationships, the very last thing i'd want is the
big guns of BSAC to get involved.

We have to remember that we are not swimmers, but divers who bring a
fair bit of hassle to a standard pool in the way of the odd grubby/unwashed
BC and dropped belt etc. on tiles. Create a few waves (literally) and that
could see the whole club being chucked out in favour of aquarobics etc.

Yes we know that council lifeguards arent ok with saving divers, but if we
pushed that, might the pool/council say that a member of staff must
be able to rescue a diver and as they are not suitable, diving is now stopped.

Trouble is we are playing what if's with a relationship that we as casual
observers (and I include BSAC in that) have little or no experience of and
have as much chance of doing some damage as we have of doing good.

Its for that reason that I reckon the current published guidelines should be
used as a softly, softly approach and if there is any resistence, just accept
that you have to pay for a lifeguard. Having BSAC wade in IMO is not the
awnser, it would only highlight even more potential problems.

[Mike Halligan]

Its for that reason that I reckon the current published guidelines should be used as a softly, softly approach and if there is any resistence, just accept that you have to pay for a lifeguard. Having BSAC wade in IMO is not the awnser, it would only highlight even more potential problems.

We pay for a lifeguard when we hire the council's pool each week. We do not have the option of not paying for attendance and those concerned are there before we arrive / after we leave, managing public sessions. We have always considered our SD members more than capable of effecting any necessary rescue, and a sight closer to any incident than the lifeguard's high chair. However, we have not pressed the point. The pool team could make life very awkward for us (short of ceasing the private hire which is always in their command) but in fact they are extremely helpful and encouraging.

As a Council Tax payer, I am pleased to see a council employee supervising this private hire of a valuable asset. Whether (s)he is a lifeguard or a "patrol" such as we find on our beach / parks / pier / common land isn't material to me. The fact that we are supervised deters abuse, encourages responsibility and maintains a healthy mutual respect.

We gain a great deal as a club and as individuals from our local authority, being supported very well by Leisure Services, Social Services and the Sports Council. I believe it would be unhelpful were we to challenge this detail.

[Fiona]

There are a couple of clubs in Stockport, which one are you with. I started my training with Stockport club, so life guards aren't something new. Same as Gareth we used to provide our own poolside safety when we used a school pool.

[micromouse]

While we are on the subject of H&S and pools, does anyone know about pool risk assessments for the silly blue foot covers that pools demand we wear over shoes. After carrying 2x 15l of cylinders across a wet floor with two poly bags on my feet, and slipping, it seems a bit of H&S madness. I've even tried arguing that I'll bring a second set of shoes just for the pool, but I still get the staff winging. (Dispite the fact that some of their own staff wear trainers poolside).

MM

[TerryH]

While we are on the subject of H&S and pools, does anyone know about pool risk assessments for the silly blue foot covers that pools demand we wear over shoes. After carrying 2x 15l of cylinders across a wet floor with two poly bags on my feet, and slipping, it seems a bit of H&S madness. I've even tried arguing that I'll bring a second set of shoes just for the pool, but I still get the staff winging. (Dispite the fact that some of their own staff wear trainers poolside).

MM

Most of us already use a second set of shoes, they are called neoprene
boots ;) Kit gets dumped at the door and the rest (in boots) transfer the
kit poolside.

Shoudnt be any need to walk in a pool with shoes or blue covers on.

[Iain Paul]

Folks,

Speaking as someone with a foot in both camps and without wishing to create an argument here I strongly advise that you think very carefully before doing anything rash. Consider the following:-

We are generally considered a minority sport and that there are other sports with considerably greater numbers and political muscle at both National and local level who are DESPERATE to get more pool time. Most local authorities have swimming development officers but has anyone seen a SCUBA development officer? If you are lucky enough to have access and use of a pool be thankful, other branches are not always so lucky. Some facility operators are looking for every opportunity to give them the water time rather than us.

Yes as SD you are qualified to act as safety cover for divers, but when does a diver cease being a diver. Take the SCUBA kit off and what are they – a swimmer. What about your members who are just in for a swim for fitness?

How often do your club members practice their rescue and most importantly Life Support skills? When did you last have a go with “Annie” in your club? I would suspect that in most cases she is only ever seen in the club when ST2 or the DL/O2 admin lectures are carried out once a year for a few minutes per person. It is however generally accepted that Pool Lifeguards should be getting logged practice and checks on at least a monthly basis if not more frequently (3 weekly is often referred!), and their continued employment is on the line every 2 years when they renew their award. Does the general club member really compare with this level of regular logged practice (unless they’re in emergency services / first responder / lifeguard)?

It is a misconception through selective reading of Managing Health & Safety in Swimming Pools that the paper qualification (diver, lifeguard or canoeist for that matter) is all that matters. It is NOT - it is only the start, with ongoing training practice and assessment of rescue being just as if not more important! Sorry but I know who I would prefer to get me out of the water and give me BLS within a pool situation (previous exceptions applied). Outside is another matter, not least because there are normally no life guards around.

As has been indicated by others, “lifeguard” staff will actually be part of a team covering a multitude of other things relating to the normal operation of the building and potential emergency action and are trained for such. Whilst I cannot comment for other operators, the norm wherever I have worked has been that NO-ONE gets to hire the pool without lifeguards being provided and they are included in the price of the pool hire. They are needed on duty whether or not you are the primary cover for those under the water. Interestingly not only could the operator find it more difficult and costly to ensure that the voluntary “lifeguards”, provided by clubs are who and what they say they are regarding qualifications and practice, than to provide the staff themselves, but you could also find it just as costly and time consuming as paying for the staff in the first instance!

As divers/dive clubs we need to work in partnership with the pool operators, we get the casualty to the surface and gear off with staff lifeguards taking the emergency procedure further. Don’t we already do this with the emergency services? Why are lifeguards regarded as different? Because you see them as costing you money? Work with your pool staff and management rather than against them, you never know you may end up recruiting some as members and gues what, that could solve your financial problem in a more positive way, as well as giving the operator another view on YOUR operation!

Please don't shoot the messenger, I couldnt be more committed to BSAC and SCUBA training under whatever brand but I very aware of how others can and and do see us within the leisure indiucstry.

Rock the boat at you peril - it may capsize!

Iain

DO EllonSAC 1193 /Area Coach/ITS Trainer
Leisure Officer & Pool Lifeguard Trainer

[northern_diver]

I remember been on my IFC in leeds, been taught how to teach in water RB's to a victim, there was a NI and 4 trainee ADIs (SD's or above of course) in shortee's and Aqualungs.

The lifeguard on duty was going off somewhere for some reason so was like, 'look guys, you going to be ok? want to stop, tillcover can be provided?' we just continued as we were.

I understand his point of view i suppose, but it always strikes me as a funny memory.

Does really assist the thread though...:o

John

[robforrest]

It is a great shame that this event no longer runs, a casualty of the CRB culture.

As an aside, there shouldn't be any hinderances as far as CRB are concerned -you can get a free check via BSAC
http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=1308&sectionTitle=Criminal+Records+Bureau+(CRB)+disclos ure+process

[Gareth]

As an aside, there shouldn't be any hinderances as far as CRB are concerned -you can get a free check via BSAC
http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=1308&sectionTitle=Criminal+Records+Bureau+(CRB)+disclos ure+process


Rob

We ran into four problems

1. Our CRB's where not transferable to the round table, or to the local council recreation department or to the local education department, we need all of these to 'comply'. (My understanding is that there is a change due in April - I believe, which will make CRB's transferable).
2. We needed to ensure 'all' our members had been CRB'd rather than select individuals. Which we were told wasn't allowed.
3. The complete event relied on voluntary support, a lot of these volunteers did not have CRB checks, & weren't interested in helping once this became apparent. (This didn't just relate to us but all the other sporting groups who where involved.)
4. The 'culture' that followed the implementation of compulsory CRB's resulted in a lot of people deciding that if they where perceived as potential abusers by government, then they wanted nothing to do with helping. Similarly a lot of community organisation decided that the risks to their members & reputation was far to high so unilaterally withdrew this support. [1]

December was the first time in a number of years that we where able to host try-dives for the Scouts, we have the ATC later this month.
We still have problems over the validity or our CRB when working with other organisation (like the Scouts ATC etc), but to some degree people have started to realise what a nonsenses it is & have 'relaxed' & accepted our CRB - with their staff present.

Gareth

[1] My understanding is that this has actually been a very significant problem for a lot of orgainisations. Schools in particular have seen a very significant loss in voluntary support across all aspects of there operation.

[PeteM]

1. Our CRB's where not transferable to the round table, or to the local council recreation department or to the local education department, we need all of these to 'comply'. (My understanding is that there is a change due in April - I believe, which will make CRB's transferable).

The new system has even more problems, once you are CRB'd you are monitored for life; failing a check does not have to be based on anything factual, suspicion is enough; the organisation that is starting doing the checks acts as judge, jury and executioner; a high proportion of their staff were recruited from a mobile phone call centre (how does that make you an expert in welfare?), the appeal process is biased against the appellant.

Thanks but no thanks...


4. The 'culture' that followed the implementation of compulsory CRB's resulted in a lot of people deciding that if they where perceived as potential abusers by government, then they wanted nothing to do with helping. Similarly a lot of community organisation decided that the risks to their members & reputation was far to high so unilaterally withdrew this support.

Once people get to understand the seriously flawed new regime this is going to get worse

[Ron MacRae]

4. The 'culture' that followed the implementation of compulsory CRB's resulted in a lot of people deciding that if they where perceived as potential abusers by government, then they wanted nothing to do with helping[1].

[1] My understanding is that this has actually been a very significant problem for a lot of orgainisations. Schools in particular have seen a very significant loss in voluntary support across all aspects of there operation.

Gareth,
This is very true. I help out in various groups that all insist on seperate CRB checks and these have to be renewed. I'm so p****d of with all these forms and "awareness" courses that I've decided that from now on I'm going to refuse to play the stupid game. It's not as if filling in the forms causes any real checks to be done so they are pointless, other than keeping a few low paid government employees off the unemployment figures. As my CRBs come up for renewal I'll take the forms and bin them. If anyone then says I can't be a School Governor, BSAC OWI, or whatever, without a CRB check then I'll go.:mad:

Ron.