Mask Clearing in Open Water

[voltiana]

Hi Guys

I can do my Mask clearing ok in the swimming pool with ease.... But today found out that it is a lot harder to do in the cold of open water... Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated as I so want to be able to do this and pass my Ocean Diver Open water training....

Volty

[Nigel Hewitt]

I can do my Mask clearing ok in the swimming pool with ease.... But today found out that it is a lot harder to do in the cold of open water...
Perhaps the addition of a hood?
Did you slack off your mask strap to allow for more under it?

Mask too tight is normally the problem. Well, and the ice cream slap in your face when the cold water hits it. If you screw your face up the mask might not fit and seal nicely.

[paul_c]

Perhaps the addition of a hood?
Did you slack off your mask strap to allow for more under it?

Mask too tight is normally the problem. Well, and the ice cream slap in your face when the cold water hits it. If you screw your face up the mask might not fit and seal nicely.


i prefer to describe it as being slapped in the face by a frozen kipper

i had issues with my old mask being a poor fit so it constantly leaked requiring clarinf all the time.

it did however make me much happyer to do it all the time. its just a matter of practice.

[voltiana]

Perhaps the addition of a hood?

I wear a 3mm Hood

Mask too tight is normally the problem. Well, and the ice cream slap in your face when the cold water hits it. If you screw your face up the mask might not fit and seal nicely.

I don't think the mask is too tight as it feels ok as for the ice cream slap yes that can be cold.

I managed to do a partial clear it was when I got to the full mask I had problems.....

[Edward]

I managed to do a partial clear it was when I got to the full mask I had problems.....

Think back to when you learned in the pool, did you master it first time?. Don't beat yourself up because you didn't do it first go.

Edward

[NickBCotswold]

I wear a 3mm Hood



I don't think the mask is too tight as it feels ok as for the ice cream slap yes that can be cold.

I managed to do a partial clear it was when I got to the full mask I had problems.....


in that case try partialy flooding your mask and swishing round the water for a fair bit without clearing it for a while - just to allow your face to get used to the water temp....

I did this at 15m for DL in cromhall quarry in october, the water being about 8 degrees... helped me relax, get used to the colder temp my face was about to be exposed to and hey presto, no probs and even enjoyed it!

theres no rush to mask clear..... and actually slowing down and relaxing about it keeps stress levels down!

Nick B

[northern_diver]

I'd like to echo Nick's comments

Less speed, more haste...once the mask's seal is broken (irrespective of the flood severity) all your self to stablise, calm down, allow your body to get used to the cold. The change often increases the breathing and pulse and if done too soon, the 'shock' can casue a rushing with poor skills, with water in/down the nose etc which can cause issue.

Did you practice in the pool with both hoods and gloves (mits too maybe, if thats your gear choice) as the two dramatically effect how easy it is to replace.

The entire shock, of the difference from a pool to sheltered water to ocean (i've heard of folks getting head screwed at the thought they could go nigh anywhere) can also lead to you getting a little shell shocked, so thats added stress for some.

Your skills might be ace, but just as they were perfected over time in the pool, the open water is the same, you have much more going on to distract/influence you.

Enjoy it and i'm sure you will be fine:)

John

[Dave Woodward]

Try taking off your mask and submerging your face for 5 or 10 seconds before you submerge to get used to the cold.

Another thing, maybe, maybe not your issue, but a lot of people I see who have trouble with mask clearing seem to have been taught the "thumb under thebottom, finger at the top" and twist/lifting the mask of your face. This is often taught badly, as the student can't really see how far if at all the mask is pulle dof the face. Usually, when we try just putting pressure on the top in the middle and blowing, without lifting the mask off the face they are immediately 100 times happier

Dave

[TrevorB]

It’s a common problem, lots of pool practice does help, so you need to practice it along side every pool lesson. Getting your face used to the water at the beginning of the dive also helps, but the colder the water the harder it becomes. I have trouble getting my brain to send the air down my nose when it gets very cold, using the humming action works. It also helps if you start when the water is warmer and keep practicing throughout the year as the water cools down. Don't feel bad lots of divers have this problem
TrevorB

[davebarber]

This thread also runs on YD.

I made the case that OD trainees doing this in 4degrees water was silly/ unsafe.

No one agreed.

I still haven't changed my mind, but seem to be alone. I think the world has gone mad.

Rules/slates/dive planning/risk assessments/instructor Nos/ blah blah - yes

Common sense - no

[TrevorB]

This thread also runs on YD.

I made the case that OD trainees doing this in 4degrees water was silly/ unsafe.

No one agreed.

I still haven't changed my mind, but seem to be alone. I think the world has gone mad.

Rules/slates/dive planning/risk assessments/instructor Nos/ blah blah - yes

Common sense - no

Our Uni club has its new intake in September and these new OD's used to do lectures, Pool, Christmas break, and then Open Water training around February, in 3 to 4 degree water temperatures

Out of an intake of around 25 three would qualify mainly due to mask clearing.

We now condense OD lectures into a weekend and get to Open Water around November when its 10 to 12 degress and the pass rate is much higher

To me it makes more sense to teach the skills in warmer water when students can concentrate, if they then want to practice the skills as the temperature reduces and develop their skills further I have no problem, but a mask clear in 10 degress is a mask clear and as with other OD skill in Open water it will be signed off.

TrevorB

[MattS]

We now condense OD lectures into a weekend and get to Open Water around November when its 10 to 12 degress and the pass rate is much higher

To me it makes more sense to teach the skills in warmer water when students can concentrate, if they then want to practice the skills as the temperature reduces and develop their skills further I have no problem, but a mask clear in 10 degress is a mask clear and as with other OD skill in Open water it will be signed off.I think the way you have handled it is excellent Trevor.

We don't always have such fixed schedules in general branches. Although I plan OD open water lessons to coincide with the warmer weather, the people I am teaching can not always fit their lives around it and we end up teaching them as and when they are available. Ocean Diver seems particularly problematic as people don't always appreciate that diving takes up a whole day and their Summer diary was organised before they decided they wanted to learn to dive.

Unfortunately if people want me to accompany them into water that is much deeper than they can stand up in, they are going to have to demonstrate to me that they can clear and refit a DV and clear and refit a mask. They are essential skills. In my opinion it is simply not safe to dive without being able to perform those skills and I can not do them for someone else.

So as I said on YD, if a student wants me to teach them in 4C water, they are going to have to complete the mask skills in 4C water. I will do everything I possibly can to make it easier, but I will not neglect what I believe is an essential survival skill. If they can find an instructor who thinks mask clearing and refit is not so important, they are free to do that. If they want to leave the open water lessons until a more comfortable time, I will do my best to fit into it.

[Nigel Hewitt]

Right back near the beginning of time when I did my PADI OW I did my first live water dive in Stoney Cove. I think it was 4C.

The mask clearing drill intro started: "You will give me your right glove because you are never going to get your mask back under your hood with it on."

I did the partial clears and then the full remove and replace, he did the <applause> signal and then held my glove out, spread open for me to slide my hand back into.

I asked about it later and he admitted he could do it and I could probably have done it but it's better to be a bit colder than get trapped underwater with a flooded mask you can't clear. That's the point where students panic.

When things go wrong on a drill like that pinch your nose with your free hand, stop, breath, calm down. Then finish things off.

[Ron MacRae]

I made the case that OD trainees doing this in 4degrees water was silly/ unsafe.

No one agreed.

I still haven't changed my mind, but seem to be alone.



You are not alone.

Bearing in mind this would be the trainee's first or second time in open water and they're probably in a semi-dry I'd be reluctant to do much if any drills at 4C. Too much chance of free flows etc.

But then again I'd be reluctant to take any new trainee in at 4C. They might decide b**locks to this and quit diving or become a holiday diver. We tend to hold off taking trainees in open water until it gets a bit warmer, especially the skinny ones. It's supposed to be fun, not an endurance event.

Couple of caveats.

Even in winter the temp above 10m, where an OD trainee would be doing this, seldom gets down to 4C.

I would expect a qualified OD to do it at 4c before diving in that temp range.
I believe the temp it's done at is as relevant as the depth, possibly more so.

Ron.

[Francis James]

I don't have any reservations about trainees going into 4degC open water, if they are well prepared and have a good instructor plus safety diver with them, to go no deeper than 5m, say on the ledge at Stoney.
Where I do have serious reservations is two recently qualified divers diving for the first time on their own in 4 to 8degC water.
If thy've only done mask clearing in 12degC water during training and are then faced with a situation at 4-8degC then there is far more chance of them experiencing cold water shock for the first time in completely the wrong situation.
I believe it would be far better to get them in the 4degC water with an instructor as a last skill just before being signed off, in order for them to get some experience of cold water conditions.:)

[Ron MacRae]

I don't have any reservations about trainees going into 4degC open water, if they are well prepared and have a good instructor plus safety diver with them, to go no deeper than 5m, say on the ledge at Stoney.
Where I do have serious reservations is two recently qualified divers diving for the first time on their own in 4 to 8degC water.
If thy've only done mask clearing in 12degC water during training and are then faced with a situation at 4-8degC then there is far more chance of them experiencing cold water shock for the first time in completely the wrong situation.
I believe it would be far better to get them in the 4degC water with an instructor as a last skill just before being signed off, in order for them to get some experience of cold water conditions.:)

I wouldn't disagree with any of that except I wouldn't want a new diver to have their 1st few open water experiences at 4C. I know they'd survive a free flow etc, but you don't want to frighten them off if they think this is liable to happen every dive. We've had divers quit after the 1st few open water dives in winter. As I said earlier it's a sport, not an endurance test.

Give them good experiences first and then introduce the bad things later.
Your idea of doing it at the end of training is better but you might have to wait a while if you trained them in the summer. You'd have to sign them off before then but could tag them as not cold water trained and sort it out later.

My club wouldn't let 2 newly qualified divers dive together anyway, but that's another argument. Perhaps we're too protective but I can live with that.

Ron.

[micromouse]

The temp issue for trainees seems to be a moot issue with people who have strong views on both sides of the fence. As the other half of Volty, and also a trainee, I have some understanding as to the reasons why we should and shouldn't dive.

Yes it’s cold. But we are diving in the UK, and want to dive all year around, and that means its going to be cold. Our instructors are not pushing us to dive now, we are pushing ourselves. But it means we take it in our own time, have realistic practice, in the environment we are going to dive in, rather than trying to fit everything into 2 weekends, or a week in Sharm. We have both now dived more times in cold water than we needed to, and are having dives signed off when we can complete the tasks confidently, not just jump in do one mask clear and sign off. We are both gaining experience in our own reactions to the cold, and the training and listening to people within the club, both those who drive in semi-drys all year around, and those who take a drysuit into the shower.

We had some inkling of what we were getting into at the start, and like many trainees we where (and still are) full of enthusiasm for this new sport. But when people started suggesting that we wait a few months before training would start for whatever reason (broken pool, too cold etc) our enthusiasm felt like it was constantly being dented. We got over the initial hurdle and are now well into our training and really enjoying it, looking forward to pool sessions and open water, but even dreaming about it and this is still after 5 months!!!

One issue I have is when we are told we cannot do something without an explanation of the reasoning behind it. ‘Trainees shouldn’t dive its too cold’…why?? What reasons do you have? Where does BSAC put a limit on dive temperature? I have a technical background, have been training for various activities all my life (I’m 40) so I want advice that allows me to make up my own mind. The recent ‘debate’ about hog rigging seems to be along similar lines.. one group telling another group how to behave without the evidence of reasoning. So if YOU say its too cold.. please say why you feel that.

Some of the comments that we have had.

Skills are too difficult when cold - So we practice until we are confident and competent, in the very situation we might need then, in controlled conditions.

You might get a free flow – Again we train for it, and practice for it. I'd rather experience a FF for real with an instructor 2 inches away, than on dive 16 on my own at 18M.

Semi-drys are too cold. – feeling cold is subjective and personal. We have both canned training dives when we got too cold, then we look at ways of improving our own diving experience. We are also both well lagged. The manufacturer’s advice (Volty’s Semi is MTM) was that 5C was fine, so we are pushing the limits, and many people dive SemiDrys all year around.

You will have a bad reaction and never dive again. Not really an answer to that.. it could happen at anytime to anyone.. we are constantly hearing stores about X who had Y happen and never dived again.

So if you have two trainees who are determined to train in 4C (Actually last weekend according to my computer it was 3C!!), then look for ways to facilitate them, and guide then rather than just tell don’t do it, and then you go off for a week in Sharm, otherwise we end up, finding some commercial operator who for £300 will certify us in one weekend (free DVD and I'm a diver T-Shirt thrown in), jump in and kill ourselves anyway.

MM

[micromouse]

My club wouldn't let 2 newly qualified divers dive together anyway, but that's another argument. Perhaps we're too protective but I can live with that.

Ron.

Nope I can see the reasoning in that. That falls into the good reasoning bracket, rather than I said NO 'cause I can.

MM

[micromouse]

This thread also runs on YD.

Yes. We are both on YD and here. YD tends to give us a wide range of expresssion,

I made the case that OD trainees doing this in 4degrees water was silly/ unsafe.

Errr no you expressed an opinion. I haven't yet seen any posted evidence apart from a passing comment regarding a coroner and an incident at Vobster. Silly?? Yes thats the funny hats we wear.. Unsafe?? My mother in law thinks all divers are unsafe.

No one agreed.
Yes.

I still haven't changed my mind, but seem to be alone. I think the world has gone mad.
I cannot comment about the world, but I would welcome reasoning behind your thoughts.

MM

[Ron MacRae]

So if you have two trainees who are determined to train in 4C (Actually last weekend according to my computer it was 3C!!), then look for ways to facilitate them.
MM

MM,
I agree 100% but you're past the initial OW dives now. If anyone wants to go diving we can almost always find a couple of DLs/SDs to be their buddies. You have to judge how keen they are. Not all thrive in 4C. If they don't want to start at 4C don't make them.

If someone asks me to go diving we go diving. Biggest problem I have in winter is getting buddies for me now my kids are back at Uni.:(

Ron.

[voltiana]

This thread also runs on YD.
Yes I know because I posted it there. WHY? I wanted to get as much advice as possible on what would be the best way to overcome the problems.


I made the case that OD trainees doing this in 4degrees water was silly/ unsafe.

No one agreed.

You are allowed to have your own thoughts and opinions, But as the trainee I made my own decision. I have not been forced by my instructor to do the sessions I am pushing to do them, my reasoning I have discovered something that both myself and my partner MM enjoy and want to progress to get as much experience as possible.


I still haven't changed my mind, but seem to be alone. I think the world has gone mad.

And no one expects you to. Similarly I am not going to change mine about doing the diving in the cold. Because a vast majority of the diving we intend to do will be at places like Stoney Cove and Wraysbury we need to both be ready for water of all temperatures, If I just wanted to be a warm water diver I would have waited until I was abroad in somewhere like Sharm and done it there but I haven't I am training in the UK and progressing.... Slowly

In terms of what I wear as MM said I wear a MTM semi dry with seals that fit perfectly to my shape and size, its not as though I am using a suit that has been warn by X amount of people ans stretched. And yes in time I will progress to a drysuit..... But I am still learning and they do say you learn from experience.....

No doubt yes I might struggle again BUT!! I will persevere and practice they say practice makes perfect and I will get there.

Volty( of to submerge her face in the nice cold sink........)

[Hamish]

Yes I know because I posted it there. WHY? I wanted to get as much advice as possible on what would be the best way to overcome the problems.

Good idea, the more the merrier.

You are allowed to have your own thoughts and opinions, But as the trainee I made my own decision. I have not been forced by my instructor to do the sessions I am pushing to do them, my reasoning I have discovered something that both myself and my partner MM enjoy and want to progress to get as much experience as possible.

Push yes, but remember not to push to hard, it could be unproductive.

And no one expects you to. Similarly I am not going to change mine about doing the diving in the cold. Because a vast majority of the diving we intend to do will be at places like Stoney Cove and Wraysbury we need to both be ready for water of all temperatures, If I just wanted to be a warm water diver I would have waited until I was abroad in somewhere like Sharm and done it there but I haven't I am training in the UK and progressing.... Slowly

Slowly but surely, thats the best way to do it.

In terms of what I wear as MM said I wear a MTM semi dry with seals that fit perfectly to my shape and size, its not as though I am using a suit that has been warn by X amount of people ans stretched. And yes in time I will progress to a drysuit..... But I am still learning and they do say you learn from experience.....

I used to always dive in a semi, but age has caught up with me, ah to be young again.

No doubt yes I might struggle again BUT!! I will persevere and practice they say practice makes perfect and I will get there.

If someone told me they never struggled at some point in their diving career I would not believe them.

Volty( of to submerge her face in the nice cold sink........)

They say it keeps the skin looking fresh, mine looks like I need to do more cold diving. :D

kind regards

Hamish

[davebarber]

MM and Volty.

You seem to have taken offence.

Sorry if I tagged on to your thread I now realise I should have started a fresh one. No critisism intended.

Its a forum, we don't have to agree.

[micromouse]

MM and Volty.

You seem to have taken offence.

Sorry if I tagged on to your thread I now realise I should have started a fresh one. No critisism intended.

Its a forum, we don't have to agree.

Hi Dave,

no offence was taken. Posting in public forums generates all sorts of comments both for and against the topic, and if we/you/anyone can't cope with that then they shouldn't post in one. One of the reasons for posting in forums is to get feedback from different people who all have different outlooks and experiences on their diving. Afterall we never stop learning and your opionion is, as is many others worth listening to, even if I dont act on the advice given.

Thanks

MM

[micromouse]

Hi Dave,

no offence was taken. Posting in public forums generates all sorts of comments both for and against the topic, and if we/you/anyone can't cope with that then they shouldn't post in one. One of the reasons for posting in forums is to get feedback from different people who all have different outlooks and experiences on their diving. Afterall we never stop learning and your opionion is, as is many others worth listening to, even if I dont act on the advice given. As trainees we get a lot of the standard responses (beg borrow/steal kit etc-another one of my pet hates) the only way we can progress is to constantly push, push for training, push for experience, push for advice.

Put simply thanks.

MM

[voltiana]

MM and Volty.

You seem to have taken offence.

Sorry if I tagged on to your thread I now realise I should have started a fresh one. No critisism intended.

Its a forum, we don't have to agree.


Hi Dave

No you haven't offended me in any way shape and form, everyone is allowed their own opinions on things yourself included. I have received a lot of valuable feedback both positive and negative that I have taken on board.

Volty

[Don Tovey]

Hi Vol,
Just practice in shallow open water till you get the hang of it.
Its a piece of cake once you get used to doing it.
Ive done it at over 40 meters just to practice. ( I bet i'm going to be called a plonker for admitting that).
In fact, (but dont tell anyone) I dived to 50 meters on The Avondale Park Wreck on just plain old compressed Air
Cheers Don

[TrevorB]

This thread also runs on YD.

I made the case that OD trainees doing this in 4degrees water was silly/ unsafe.

No one agreed.

I still haven't changed my mind, but seem to be alone. I think the world has gone mad.

Rules/slates/dive planning/risk assessments/instructor Nos/ blah blah - yes

Common sense - no

Sorry Dave I am with you
Having being a member of several Rule orientated BSAC clubs that have a rule for everything I think I belong to a BSAC where common sense takes precedence

NO we don't train in 4C it has a poor success rate
Skills can be mastered better at warmer temperatures

BSAC say we must have a Dive Manager for two Ocean Divers
We let the Manager decide their limits rather than rules

Then we can tailor the diving to suit the Ocean Divers skills

They are all different and there skill will only improve by diving

I would love them all to be able to demonstrate skills in 4C
and that will come with experience. Until it does the Dive Manager will perform his or her role and limit the two Ocean divers to safe diving

TrevorB

[.*.Jennie.*.]

Hi

Few tips I try they've probably already been suggested but here goes -

1. Once your in the water before you make sure descent take you mask off and put your face in the water for a few seconds. Then when you come to mask clearing the cold isn't so much of a shock to the system.

2. Secondly when you do take your mask of make sure you do everything really slowly. When your mask is off take a few seconds and breaths before you start putting it back on. It helped me stay calm and not panic - also your less likely to make any mistakes. Although it may take a little longer you'll probably do the skill better.

Hope this helps
Let us know how you get on
Jennie

[TrevorB]

This thread also runs on YD.

I made the case that OD trainees doing this in 4degrees water was silly/ unsafe.

No one agreed.

I still haven't changed my mind, but seem to be alone. I think the world has gone mad.

Rules/slates/dive planning/risk assessments/instructor Nos/ blah blah - yes

Common sense - no

Sorry Dave I am with you
Having being a member of several Rule orientated BSAC clubs that have a rule for everything I think I belong to a BSAC where common sense takes precedence

NO we don't train in 4C it has a poor success rate
Skills can be mastered better at warmer temperatures

BSAC say we must have a Dive Manager for two Ocean Divers
We let the Manager decide their limits rather than rules

Then we can tailor the diving to suit the Ocean Divers skills

They are all different and there skill will only improve by diving

I would love them all to be able to demonstrate skills in 4C
and that will come with experience. Until it does the Dive Manager will perform his or her role and limit the two Ocean divers to safe diving

TrevorB

[Happypig]

I had real trouble doing mask clearing in training and it probably was the cold water hitting my face, as I was ok in the pool.
It took me a few goes before I could get it and I found the best way, for me, was to close my eyes, pinch my nose (I have a really sensitive nose), concentrate on slow and deliberate breathing and then let water in. I tried to ignore the water and concentrate everying on my breathing. Once the mask was full, I started clearing by slowly and deliberately breathing in through my reg and then out through my nose whilst pressing the top. A few breaths cleared it ok.
It helped me to run through it in my mind a few times and break it down into the separate steps

[bburville]

Why it is worth the training / practice....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgfmvXFWsTs

Mask clearing drills... always worth practicing!
Safe diving,
Ben "Seal diver"
www.youtube.com/bburville

[Mike Halligan]

OK, reality seepage time.

We planned to do the third OW dive with a trainee OD today. We had overnight snow & hail to a depth of between 1 and 4 inches. The water was advertised as 4C and so it proved to be. The (fresh water) surface was frozen wherever depth was less than 2m and there was 3" of ice on the mask-rinsing bucket.

I had my OD trainee and the luxury of ADI in-water support, ducked down to check vis and temperature and suggested we ditch the planned lesson but consider a straight experience dive, i.e. no formal skills. Our ADI ducked down deeper and for longer, coming to the same conclusion and that is exactly what we did, 23 minutes to about 12m.

Some may say I was right, some may say I was wrong. We had 3 cylinders and 2 ponies, 8 second stages and 2 Air2s. I consider that we were safe and in control of depth, time and air throughout.

My call on site at the time was that mask clearing and AAS ascents were inappropriate but that we had the capability to enjoy our dive. Just a couple of degrees warmer would have been a completely different matter. Had this been DL training, I'd have gritted my teeth and gone for it. :eek:

Tin hat donned,

[Francis James]

OK, reality seepage time.

We planned to do the third OW dive with a trainee OD today. We had overnight snow & hail to a depth of between 1 and 4 inches. The water was advertised as 4C and so it proved to be. The (fresh water) surface was frozen wherever depth was less than 2m and there was 3" of ice on the mask-rinsing bucket.

I had my OD trainee and the luxury of ADI in-water support, ducked down to check vis and temperature and suggested we ditch the planned lesson but consider a straight experience dive, i.e. no formal skills. Our ADI ducked down deeper and for longer, coming to the same conclusion and that is exactly what we did, 23 minutes to about 12m.

Some may say I was right, some may say I was wrong. We had 3 cylinders and 2 ponies, 8 second stages and 2 Air2s. I consider that we were safe and in control of depth, time and air throughout.

My call on site at the time was that mask clearing and AAS ascents were inappropriate but that we had the capability to enjoy our dive. Just a couple of degrees warmer would have been a completely different matter. Had this been DL training, I'd have gritted my teeth and gone for it. :eek:

Tin hat donned,
I can only endorse your actions here Mike with regards to doing the experience dive and I'd guess your trainee got far more from the dive than some of the training dives.:)

[TrevorB]

I am with you Mike, I think it was a good call, and a good dive as you all came back

TrevorB

[micromouse]

OK, reality seepage time.

We planned to do the third OW dive with a trainee OD today. We had overnight snow & hail to a depth of between 1 and 4 inches. The water was advertised as 4C and so it proved to be. The (fresh water) surface was frozen wherever depth was less than 2m and there was 3" of ice on the mask-rinsing bucket.

I had my OD trainee and the luxury of ADI in-water support, ducked down to check vis and temperature and suggested we ditch the planned lesson but consider a straight experience dive, i.e. no formal skills. Our ADI ducked down deeper and for longer, coming to the same conclusion and that is exactly what we did, 23 minutes to about 12m.

Some may say I was right, some may say I was wrong. We had 3 cylinders and 2 ponies, 8 second stages and 2 Air2s. I consider that we were safe and in control of depth, time and air throughout.

My call on site at the time was that mask clearing and AAS ascents were inappropriate but that we had the capability to enjoy our dive. Just a couple of degrees warmer would have been a completely different matter. Had this been DL training, I'd have gritted my teeth and gone for it. :eek:

Tin hat donned,

I would say you are right. You didn't use a blanket ban 'its 4C therefore it will be too cold', you used your experience of the conditions on site at the time to make a judgement call. Our first dives were experience dives with no skills undertaken, but when the skills came along in the next dive we were more prepared.

MM

[Hamish]

My call on site at the time was that mask clearing and AAS ascents were inappropriate but that we had the capability to enjoy our dive. Just a couple of degrees warmer would have been a completely different matter. Had this been DL training, I'd have gritted my teeth and gone for it. :eek:

Tin hat donned,

Hi Mike,

I believe the point is, you made the call based on your experience and the actual site conditions and not on any pre-set conditions laid down by someone in your club.

That’s what taking responsibility for others is all about whether as an instructor or a dive manager.

Regards

Hamish

[northern_diver]

I think thats quite reasonable Mike mate.

Sadly, my (and my mates/uni club) dive at capern was cancelled due to the weather. I think it was the right, if disappointing choice today though.

Next weekend maybe:)

One of these days, people will learn that a 'one answer fits all' attitude and micro managment just doesnt work and that informed, situation fitting responces is better.

John

[MikeTickle]

theres no rush to mask clear..... and actually slowing down and relaxing about it keeps stress levels down!


Reminds me of my first ever open water dive during which I had to do a mask clear. I was at NDAC which was a balmy 10 deg - but I was in a 3mm wet suit, not having bothered to rent something more appropriate as I was only supposed to be doing surface skills.
As I was so happy ditching and retrieving my mask in the pool we decided to go straight for that and keep the dive short rather than a partial flood, full flood etc.
Being slapped in the face with a frozen kipper is perhaps the best way to describe it. It was such a shock I started breathing really heavily, but then thought I've got loads of gas, I'll just take my time so I sat there got calm and then took the mask and refitted.
I still hate mask ditch and retrieval, and still have absolutely no problem with it in the pool. I don't mind pulling the skirt as I fin along to let water in and clear my mask - I do this most dives - but hate the cold water rushing in when I rip it off.
Early last season I decided it wise to carry a spare mask, so I organised a dive with an instructor and we agreed to hover over a platform so I could swap masks and then repeat finning along. I flooded the mask, managed to get water up my nose and thought bugger that, and skipped the swap. Then I put it off and off until it cropped up on the DL open water lesson.

I find it comforting that other people hate it too.

M

[MikeTickle]

I made the case that OD trainees doing this in 4degrees water was silly/ unsafe.

No one agreed.


There is a compromise though - I did not enjoy my first dive that much (see above) as the mask clearing was a bit of a shock. Before I started to learn I always thought reg ditching would freak me out, but I have no problem with it. I can clear a mask with no problems, but I don't enjoy the cold shock.
If I were made to repeat mask clearing in colder water early on I might have jacked it all in.
On the flip side our training officer has the view that he should reasonably be able to ask a member to do any skill in any of the conditions they are likely to be diving in - which is pretty much what he said Feb before last when I had mask clearing to do. I asked to defer it to later in the season and he asked what I'd do if my strap snapped on a winter dive. That said before every skill he asks if we are happy to do it, and if for what ever reason we are not he passes it over. If during the de-brief your reason was I just did not feel comfortable than that's it end of discussion and it goes on his slate as a skill to carry over to the next dive.

I guess what this rambling post is trying to say is diving is supposed to be fun, so we should not make it an ordeal. However diving needs to be safe and some times these objectives don't sit well together.

M

[Gareth]

Reminds me of my first ever open water dive during which I had to do a mask clear. I was at NDAC which was a balmy 10 deg - but I was in a 3mm wet suit, not having bothered to rent something more appropriate as I was only supposed to be doing surface skills.
As I was so happy ditching and retrieving my mask in the pool we decided to go straight for that and keep the dive short rather than a partial flood, full flood etc.
Being slapped in the face with a frozen kipper is perhaps the best way to describe it. It was such a shock I started breathing really heavily, but then thought I've got loads of gas, I'll just take my time so I sat there got calm and then took the mask and refitted.
I still hate mask ditch and retrieval, and still have absolutely no problem with it in the pool. I don't mind pulling the skirt as I fin along to let water in and clear my mask - I do this most dives - but hate the cold water rushing in when I rip it off.
Early last season I decided it wise to carry a spare mask, so I organised a dive with an instructor and we agreed to hover over a platform so I could swap masks and then repeat finning along. I flooded the mask, managed to get water up my nose and thought bugger that, and skipped the swap. Then I put it off and off until it cropped up on the DL open water lesson.

I find it comforting that other people hate it too.

M

Mike

I must admit to having an aversion to taking potential OD's on their initial dives between the months of November & March as a general rule. Especially if they are only equiped with wetsuits.
I have done it this year for an extremely keen couple who both accepted it would be cold, & therefore more challenging & potential less fun than it would be in the summer.
However, for those doing SD & DL I have no such reservations. If they are diving 12 months a year they should be comfortable with any of the skills 12 months a year, they might not enjoy it but they should be able to preform the skill.
If they are doing DL exercises they should be able to do the skill with out hesitation or buildup. I only demonstrate if they have a problem or do the skill incorrectly. I am quite ruthless on skills like maskclearing, AAS, etc, which any DL should be able to do without thinking. I have failed a number of potential DL's over either there refusal to or hesitance over mask clearing in cold water. If there is any hesitance or refusal I just pull my mask straight off & put it back on, complete the rest of the assessment & then fail them.
A potential DL should be able to do the self help skills without hesitation, these include mask clearing, regulator retrival , weightbelt jetison. They should be able to execute the AAS skill smoothly, without panick as both donar & reciever with minimal delay. CBL's should also be well executed.
These are all known skills for a DL (they learnt them all as OD's).
DL's have a unique qualification, they are potentially diving with an individual that holds no diving qualifcation. Their self help skills should be second nature, as should the first line rescue skills.

The only thing in your post I find slightly worrying is that you would consider DL when still uncomfortable with mask clearing. The rest shows good sense & an understanding of your limits, which are all good signs in a potential DL.

Hating a skill is acceptable, only being able to perform it in optimal conditions is another matter.


This general thread has moved towards the application of good sense based on the conditions. But it is also about understanding individaul limitations. Remember things seldom go wrong under optimal conditions. If you believe the conditions impare your ability to do the skill, should you be diving in those conditions?

We expect an unqualified diver to have skill issue, similarly, we accept that an OD has limited skills & experience. Beyond these qualifcations a certain expectation of competance exists!

Gareth

[Mike Halligan]

<>
The only thing in your post I find slightly worrying is that you would consider DL when still uncomfortable with mask clearing. The rest shows good sense & an understanding of your limits, which are all good signs in a potential DL.

Hating a skill is acceptable, only being able to perform it in optimal conditions is another matter.


This general thread has moved towards the application of good sense based on the conditions. But it is also about understanding individaul limitations. Remember things seldom go wrong under optimal conditions. If you believe the conditions impare your ability to do the skill, should you be diving in those conditions?

We expect an unqualified diver to have skill issue, similarly, we accept that an OD has limited skills & experience. Beyond these qualifcations a certain expectation of competance exists!


Couldn't agree more. There is a world of difference between asking an OD trainee to deal with extremes and demanding that a DL candidate be capable of dealing with worst case. I guess that's why we see very much more corrective instruction and repeated assessment at DL level?

[voltiana]

Well guys I have finally done it and it was easier then the first time and I surprised myself by how easy I found it.....

Now on to the next dive

[NickBCotswold]

Well guys I have finally done it and it was easier then the first time and I surprised myself by how easy I found it.....

Now on to the next dive


Congratulations!!!!!! Never give up!!!!

Nick

[Scoobie Diver]

Well guys I have finally done it and it was easier then the first time and I surprised myself by how easy I found it.....

Now on to the next dive

Well done, the fist one feels like you have been smacked in the face. I did mine Feb last year it felt like hell

Simon