Drysuit advice

[vidiotdave]

Hi,
I've done a bit of research on the web, and visited a couple fo shops..
I've also spoken to members of my club..(one guy has just bought one)

I was wondering if anyone has any comments on the following suit

Northern Diver- Divemaster 2009 dry suit.

It will be my first suit, I've only just started diving..(Dec 09) never in the UK, so I welcome comments..
As it's a fair amount of money to go and spend...

From discussions.. I've worked out/ decided that

Compressed neoprene is better
Neoprene seals are better
Shoulder valve is better


There seems to be a good deal on the web at the moment (sub £500)

Any comments/ thoughts...


:p :p :p

Dave

[Mr Frog]

Hi Dave

Be careful about forming an opinion based on what other people recommend on forums or in shops, since they tend to prefer what they use. Afterall, no one wants to admit that they bought the wrong thing!

It's best to look at the physics in relation to bouyancy characterics and then make an informed decision.

The problem with Neoprene is that it compresses as you descend - so by the time you reach 30m, the suit is has lost 75% of it's thickness (Boyles Law - 4 ATA/Bar at 30m)

Neoprene is extremely buoyant, so you need extra weight in order to descend ... however, you will then be carrying this 'additional weight' throughout the dive.

The benefit of a membrane suit (trilaminate etc), is that its buoyancy characteristics remain the same throughout the dive (it doesn't change). So you don't need all that extra weight that you do with neoprene.

The membrane cannot compress and by the time you've added air to the suit during the descent, it's the same buoyancy as at the surface - the air has simply expanded the fibres in the undersuit to maintain exposure protection and take off the squeeze .. but the suit hasn't lost any buoyancy (unlike the compression of the neoprene)

I've heard all the arguments about the fact that neoprene suits are warmer and whilst this may well be the case at the surface - it certainlys looses its warmer properties at depth (i.e. 7mm neoprene suit will be less than 2mm at 30m - 75% loss)

That's why people in wetsuits start to feel cold at depth ;)

To keep warm in membrane suits, simply choose an appropriate undersuit

The choice is yours, but if you think about the actual physics - then neoprene ain't what it's cracked up to be.

Seals - latex are fine unless you have a latex allergy, although some people do say that neoprene is more comfortable. They can however, leak depending on whether your wrists form 'tunnels' when you form a fist. Also, latex allows you to use various options with dry gloves etc

Shoulder dump is good (SiTec tend to be less likely to leak than Apeks), but make sure that your vsuit fits properly and that the dump valve is in the proper position - some manufacturers stick it in the wrong place, making it awkward to dump gas during the ascent phase.

Personally I recommend membrane suits with latex seals and SiTec valves :)

Alternatively, go with neoprene but be aware of the bouyancy issues

Whatever you decide, make sure that it fits properly - otherwise you'll have great difficulty managing a 'migrating mass of gas' within the suit which could cause all sorts of problems.

Above all, make sure that you receive proper training in dry suit use BEFORE using the suit ;)

[Gareth]

Hi Frog, Dave

Mr Frog, Dave mentione dcompressed neoprene, which shouldn't have the charactoristics you mention.

I have never had or used a ND suit.

I have had both a DUI trilaminate & a DUI crushed Neoprene. I started with the trilaminate, & 6 years later switched to the crushed Neoprene after wearing through the trilaminate. I greatly prefer the crushed neoprene, although I own another trilaminate which is lighter when flying (& drys faster).

I have had both latex & neoprene seals over the years. For durability the neoprene are vastly superior, which is what I now prefer.
I still use latex on the trilaminate, but they certainly wear out quicker, I normally changes these every 18 months or so, regardless of the amount of use the suit has had. If you do stick with latex, ensure that you have a spare set of seals if you are on a liveaboard, I've seen far to many holidays spoilt by a split latex seal.

As I stated, I can't really comment on the ND crushed neoprene, never having had one myself.

Gareth

[Hamish]

Hi Dave,

I do in fact own and use a ND Divemaster 4mm crushed neoprene suit.

I Previously I had a ND Cortex.

Just in case you are not familiar with the cortex suit, the material is what you would term as heavy duty. I purchased it due to the strength of the material as I knew I could go wrecking without worrying about getting it torn. It had latex neck and wrist seals with a shoulder auto dump.

This suit although very cumbersome due to its robustness was extremely good at keeping the cold out, remember it is also dependant on the undersuit, mine was the metalux 200, which was extremely warm even in mid winter with water temperatures a the surface of 1 – 2 deg. I did in fact find it too warm in summer and resorted to just wearing a heavy tee shirt and trainer bottoms. Now as for weighting, in general use when wearing my drysuit I required 12kg of lead, this was due to the inherent buoyancy caused by the combination of air spaces created by the suit and undersuit. As some have said the down point is the latex seals, I had to get a new neck seal after 2 seasons and renewed the wrist seals as a precaution.

All in all a very robust and warm suit.

Now as I have said I now own a ND Divemaster 4mm crushed neoprene and the differences are as follows.

The suit is very flexible and fits much better, I now only require an undersuit which is in fact base layer thermal underwear of very good quality (cost me £60 for socks, top and bottom). This means my suit plus undersuit has much less air retaining properties, consequently there being less air space and therefore less buoyancy I have reduced my weighting to 6kg using the same kit configuration. The suit/undersuit configuration keeps me warm in all conditions and as the undersuit is not as heavy duty I have no problems even in summer whilst hanging around on the surface.

So my personal and remember it is my personal view is that a crushed neoprene suit is far superior to any other type of suit.

Regards

Hamish

[Rowly]

Hello Dave,
The Dive Master is used by a lot of our experienced club divers. It is compressed and not crushed.
For my first suit I bought an Outside Edge compressed Neoprene. It does the job and is much cheaper. I based this on the thinking that if I didn't like it I could have another think in a couple of years or so.
Seals are a personal preference.
I went with a Neoprene suit because I have heard it's tougher and if you do get a leak it acts more like a wetsuit rather than a great big bag!

N.B. These are the rantings of a novice and not a dyed in the wool expert....

[Tony Dwyer]

One of my drysuits is a Northern Diver Divemaster compressed neoprene suit.
It's the one I prefer for cold water diving. It's a very good fit, flexible and easy to use. If you look at my avatar, you will see me wearing it. :)

I use a 4th Element undersuit.

I have never been cold in this suit.

I do own a rubber membrane suit and have had laminate suits in the past, so I'm familiar with various types of membrane suit. I think my Avon rubber suit is the Mutts N*tts, but for winter use, the compressed neoprene suits me better.

[vidiotdave]

Thanks all for your comments.. it's nice to see so many in an afternoon.
I get the feeling I can't realy go wrong with the Divemaster suit...

Wondering about measurements...

should you wear an undersuit during the measurements?

:cool: :cool:

[northern_diver]

Thanks all for your comments.. it's nice to see so many in an afternoon.
I get the feeling I can't realy go wrong with the Divemaster suit...

Wondering about measurements...

should you wear an undersuit during the measurements?

:cool: :cool:

Take normal clothes for a MTM, they will measure YOU and do the normal stuff of adjusting for 'salt water shrinking' and undersuits.

When however you get it, you should try it on with the undersuit ASAP. If your going to the Factory to get measured then they might have some available off the shelf/2nd hand/un-fulfilled orders ones etc around that you could try while there, might save you a MTM, but a undersuit be required then.

HTH

John

[Roz]

With you asking about measurements, I am guessing you are going for a MTM (made to measure) suit.

It's well worth getting measured by a professional who has been trained in measuring because so many things can go wrong if you're mismeasured. You might wonder why they take so many measurements. This is to give the suit maker a check and balance. By looking at all the measurements they have a good idea of your body shape. For instance there's quite a few guys who swear they still have a 32" waist. Well they kind of do but their tummy hangs over the top of their trousers. So having a full set of measurements gives you a truer picture. The suit measurer will tell you what they want you to wear.

[TrevorB]

Lots of advice, and for you to sort through, my personal preference is membrane, I have dived in them for years, but when I finally wanted a replacement neck seal I switched from latex to neoprene seals and I am not going back. One of the club members started last year in a dry suit, always membrane until circumstances forced him into a neoprene, complained all day on comfort and has now bought a membrane suit, and when the neck seal went had a neoprene one fitted and is also very happy. The only problem with neoprene seals is they are not one size fits all they have to be the correct size for you, so all our club suits are all latex
TrevorB

[Ron MacRae]

Dave,
I'd emaphasise what Roz said. Getting the correct fit is the most important thing.

I dived a Beaver Trilaminate suit with for the last 9 years. For the 1st 7 it was 100% watertight and I could wear enough under it to keep me warm but age finally caught up with it. It was fine, I'd have one again.

I've just changed to compressed neoprene, the boyancy doesn't change as much as Neoprene and it's more flexable than crushed neoprene. The reason I changed was that the suit was made relatively locally and I could go get measured by a professional and take it back if I have problems.

In the trilaminate I had an undersuit & a base layer. With the Neoprene I can only just manage to fit in the base layer, it's that tight. That's plenty warm enough for 5-6C @ 25m. (I'm a fat git who isn't too impacted by the cold anyway) . I feel much more streamlined in the water due to the tightness but also freer due to the flexability. My only worry is I might be too hot in summer in the UK.:D

I dropped 2kg in weight on the change as I'm nolonger puffed up like an airbag to stay warm.

Bearing in mind I've only done a few dives in the new suit I'd agree with your initial statements -

* Compressed neoprene is better
* Neoprene seals are better (provided you don't have sinewy wrists)
* Shoulder valve is better

But others can/do disagree for various good reasons.

Bottom line I think the most important thing is to get a suit that fits well and go dive with it a few times to become comfortable in it.

Ron.

[graham nurse]

Dave I have sent you a PM

what I will say in public is if you are going for a MTM suit invest the time in traveling to the manufacture and let them measure you. they are far less likely to get it wrong and have to take responsibility if they do. Having had ND suits I wont buy another until I am convinced the quality is back to where it used to be.

A lot of peaple rate the Seaskin suits I have seen quite a few and they appear to do the Job ie keep the wearer dry. They are certainly very competitively priced.

I wear an Otter suit and I have no complaints about the suit or the service from Divers Warehouse.

My first suit was membrane made by Nokia it worked for a while. I replaced this with a succession of Neoprene suits of varying thickness. I have had Latex and neoprene seals. I much prefere neoprene I find them more comfortable, do not get hang mans neck, warmer and tougher I have sewn loads of Latex seals tear.

Graham