WASAC

[howard lewis]

Keith I cannot belive your attack on Phil Adkins. I happen to know Phil quite well and I can assure you that he is not the type to want something for nothing. He is indeed the most hard working person that I know in raising funds for his club. He just wants the club to have the same oppurtunity as our colleaques in Scotland and England.We are one of the few clubs that have our own clubhouse and compressor and indeed fill nitrox. These I can assure you all funded through the sheer hard work and dedication of past and present members.To accuse us of assuming a divine right to lottery funding without checking your facts is very unfair indeed. To put you in the picture Phil Harrison is very aware of the situation in Wales but remains very naive in the fact that he believes everything that the current chairman and diving officer of WASAC tell him. As an example (there are to many to list.) Every year since I have been diving I have attended the Welsh conference there was no conference this year and indeed no explanation of why not. Take it from me many older and seasoned Instructors / National instructors in Wales have failed to find out what is going on we must have governance from headquarters before we lose even more members.Last but not least last year we were asked to hold a gala we agreed, booked the pool but WASAC officials failed to tell us it had not been organised by them. I think I have said enough.

[Graham Marsh]

I am amazed at Keith Lawrence?s attitude towards lottery funding I hope that this is only his opinion and not that of the council as a whole; otherwise this organisation is in dire straights. I would like to point out that grant aid IS essential not only for the smaller clubs to advance but also for new clubs to develop. I wonder if the BSAC itself receives any sort of external funding or is that not essential either.

Managing a clubs finances correctly is essential to the wellbeing of that club, (as the BSAC know) and the committee have a duty to provide its members with the best facilities available with the least possible expense, whatever the size of club. This will involve applying for any grants available, local or national.

If only the Welsh clubs hadn?t missed the opportunity to vote the only Welsh candidate onto the national council then maybe this ?post code lottery? would get the attention it deserves.

[Steve Walker]

I am amazed at Keith Lawrence?s attitude towards lottery funding I hope that this is only his opinion and not that of the council as a whole; otherwise this organisation is in dire straights.

As much as I'm sympathetic to the problems you've got with your WASAC issue(s), I'd just like to point out a couple of things:

1) Keith moderates this forum voluntarily, this is not something BSAC pays him to do, and causes no small amount of grief to him which I'm sure he could probably do without, so let's not get too carried away with the criticisms of how he does this essentially thankless task.

2) Keith isn't the only one who found the original post by Atty to be questionable:
congratulations to Medway sac on their lottery award of ?5000
well deserved and will be put to good use in training and
equipment for the Branch . Its windfalls like this and the
hardwork of members and committee of branches that help
keep branches ticking over.

AIUI, the award of lottery funding is conditional upon the recipients using that money to benefit the wider community, where is the acknowledgement of that in Atty's post ?

I would like to point out that grant aid IS essential not only for the smaller clubs to advance but also for new clubs to develop.

No it's not, how did BSAC clubs survive in the 40-odd years BEFORE Lottery funding existed? It might be desirable but it's not essential. I go diving regularly with a wide assortment of divers from all over the country, you won't hear me or any of these people complaining that Lottery funding isn't subsidising their diving.

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Dear Howard (et al)

My ?attack? on Phill Adkins (as you put it) was in the same vein as his ?attack? on the BSAC. I have met both Phill and Mark personally BTW and I was in no way questioning their loyalty or dedication to their clubs or to the BSAC overall. My statement about lottery funding was one of fact, not one of opinion.

Phill?s original implication that the BSAC had done nothing, was ignoring people and had their head in the sand was simply =NOT TRUE=, I know for a fact that our Chairman has been in contact with several people and has spent some considerable time trying to assist in this matter.

Look ? we all want the same thing, we want this resolved, we want to help each other to resolve it. So why not work towards that instead of hitting each other over the head? This is not my area of expertise but I am more than happy to talk things over, get a better understanding, do anything that I can to assist. Phill already has my phone number, I?ll make the same offer to you all as I made to Mark ? ping me an email (address above) if you would like my telephone number and I would be delighted to talk to anybody. I can?t promise anything as Phil (Chair) is the expert and deals with this area, but if I can take some of the load off him, filter and collate stuff, then I am more than happy to do so. We?re not going to solve it on here, I or the BSAC cant solve it for you, so let?s at least start talking to each other and try to find a way out of this situation.

Your call.

Keith L

[edward haynes]

Into the frying pan.

It might be my warped senses, but don't the politicians decide which organisation they will recognise as Governing Body.

I am going to assume it has been brought to their attention that WASAC is not operating as a Governing Body and could they consider the BSAC?

Just my thoughts:-)

Edward Haynes

[markA]

:=I am amazed at Keith Lawrence?s attitude towards lottery funding I hope that this is only his opinion and not that of the council as a whole; otherwise this organisation is in dire straights.

As much as I'm sympathetic to the problems you've got with your WASAC issue(s), I'd just like to point out a couple of things:

1) Keith moderates this forum voluntarily, this is not something BSAC pays him to do, and causes no small amount of grief to him which I'm sure he could probably do without, so let's not get too carried away with the criticisms of how he does this essentially thankless task.

Yes Keith does moderate the forum but surely if he wants to make comment/critisism on someones posting he must expect that person to defend/explain his views. That is the point of such forums and Keith I am sure will be the first to agree with that. I think its called free speech

2) Keith isn't the only one who found the original post by Atty to be questionable:

If he wasn't, then he was the only one to offer his opinion. If more people spoke up like him and not kept their opinions to themselves this forum would be a lot healthier and more problems could be resolved with healthy discussions. Can you pass the message on to all the people you know who found Attys original post questionable to contact this forum or us personally to offer their opinions as its no good just telling you While on the subject did you find anything questionable about it and if so what?

:=congratulations to Medway sac on their lottery award of ?5000
:=well deserved and will be put to good use in training and
:= equipment for the Branch . Its windfalls like this and the
:=hardwork of members and committee of branches that help
:= keep branches ticking over.

AIUI, the award of lottery funding is conditional upon the recipients using that money to benefit the wider community, where is the acknowledgement of that in Atty's post ?

:=I would like to point out that grant aid IS essential not only for the smaller clubs to advance but also for new clubs to develop.

No it's not, how did BSAC clubs survive in the 40-odd years BEFORE Lottery funding existed? It might be desirable but it's not essential. I go diving regularly with a wide assortment of divers from all over the country, you won't hear me or any of these people complaining that Lottery funding isn't subsidising their diving.

Atty isn't complaining that funding is not his diving. I suggest you read his thread again, what he would like is a level playing field for all BSAC/SAA members and not to be put at a disavantage just because of a geographical location. Atty is one of the most commited fund raising I have ever met and although everybody in his club mucks in his organisation of events over the last few years has patially funded a new boat,compressor and extension of the club premises. On top of that Phil does not actually need to do this work as he owns his own boat on which he regularly takes divers out for the day. So please do not claim he his whining as he is not

Mark

[markA]

Into the frying pan.

It might be my warped senses, but don't the politicians decide which organisation they will recognise as Governing Body.

I am going to assume it has been brought to their attention that WASAC is not operating as a Governing Body and could they consider the BSAC?

Just my thoughts:-)

Edward Haynes

Edward
yes it has been put to them but one of the hurdles is that WASAC are partially funded by the Sports Council of Wales(although they don't claim their money anymore because they don't exist) so its difficult to replace them.

That is why people have been seeking help/advice from the BSAC as the BSAC sould have the resorses to help. It was to raise this matter was the reason I was persuaded to stand in the recent election
Cheers
Mark

[Steve Walker]

While on the subject did you find anything questionable about it and if so what?

I thought I'd made that clear, it's the entire emphasis on the benefits to that particular club and it's members, and the total absence of acknowledging WHY they were awarded the funding, ie to benefit the wider community, not just theirselves. This is nothing new, there's a club near me who got a far larger lottery award to fund the purchase of a monster sized RIB which has also failed to provide any benefit to the local community (and apparently to most of their club members).


So please do not claim he his whining as he is not

From your parochial nature of your post you obviously know Atty, Phil et al in person, the rest of us don't, and the original post certainly does reads like whining to me and I suspect to some others too.

Again best of luck sorting out the WASAC situation, but lottery funding should not be considered essential to running a dive club.

[Andy Wade]

:=:=I am amazed at Keith Lawrence?s attitude towards lottery funding I hope that this is only his opinion and not that of the council as a whole; otherwise this organisation is in dire straights.
:=
:=As much as I'm sympathetic to the problems you've got with your WASAC issue(s), I'd just like to point out a couple of things:
:=
:=1) Keith moderates this forum voluntarily, this is not something BSAC pays him to do, and causes no small amount of grief to him which I'm sure he could probably do without, so let's not get too carried away with the criticisms of how he does this essentially thankless task.

Yes Keith does moderate the forum but surely if he wants to make comment/critisism on someones posting he must expect that person to defend/explain his views. That is the point of such forums and Keith I am sure will be the first to agree with that. I think its called free speech

:=2) Keith isn't the only one who found the original post by Atty to be questionable:

If he wasn't, then he was the only one to offer his opinion. If more people spoke up like him and not kept their opinions to themselves this forum would be a lot healthier and more problems could be resolved with healthy discussions. Can you pass the message on to all the people you know who found Attys original post questionable to contact this forum or us personally to offer their opinions as its no good just telling you While on the subject did you find anything questionable about it and if so what?

Actually I found this part questionable:

last month we were voting for new committee members for bsac so now prove your worth and at least accept there is a problem get your heads out of the sand pit and act !!!!

Especially as Phil Harrison has apparently been trying to help, this was not even mentioned in the first posting.... which did come across as a bit of a whine to me.
Not forgetting the later nit picking about whether it's 'Sport Wales' or "The Sports Council for Wales"
Come on guys, you catch more flies with jam than with vinegar.

I didn't get involved with this argument as it just diverts attention away from the original problem.
This problem isn't one of BSAC's making is it?
Any fault surely lies with WASAC, and whoever appoints the governing body for Wales.

[MarkA]

:=While on the subject did you find anything questionable about it and if so what?

I thought I'd made that clear,

Sorry Steve it wasn't very clear to me but that may just be me being a thick git

it's the entire emphasis on the benefits to that particular club and it's members, and the total absence of acknowledging WHY they were awarded the funding, ie to benefit the wider community, not just theirselves.

I don't think Attys point was related to WHY they were awarded it but congratulating them and at the same time pointing out that some of us are not even entitiled to apply for a grant due to our geographical location

This is nothing new, there's a club near me who got a far larger lottery award to fund the purchase of a monster sized RIB which has also failed to provide any benefit to the local community (and apparently to most of their club members).

Sounds near to home for you on this one then

:=So please do not claim he his whining as he is not

From your parochial nature of your post you obviously know Atty, Phil et al in person, the rest of us don't, and the original post certainly does reads like whining to me and I suspect to some others too.

Atty and Phill are in Fact one and the same person and yes I do know him very well, and so do most other BSAC divers in South Wales and beyond due to the work he puts in as part of the regional coaching team and on the ITS scheme as well as the fact he seems to be in virtualy every pub you go in


Again best of luck sorting out the WASAC situation, but lottery funding should not be considered essential to running a dive club.

Thanks for that but three years down the line and no joy yet

Cheers

Mark

[howard lewis]

:=:=:=I am amazed at Keith Lawrence?s attitude towards lottery funding I hope that this is only his opinion and not that of the council as a whole; otherwise this organisation is in dire straights.
:=:=
:=:=As much as I'm sympathetic to the problems you've got with your WASAC issue(s), I'd just like to point out a couple of things:
:=:=
:=:=1) Keith moderates this forum voluntarily, this is not something BSAC pays him to do, and causes no small amount of grief to him which I'm sure he could probably do without, so let's not get too carried away with the criticisms of how he does this essentially thankless task.
:=
:=Yes Keith does moderate the forum but surely if he wants to make comment/critisism on someones posting he must expect that person to defend/explain his views. That is the point of such forums and Keith I am sure will be the first to agree with that. I think its called free speech
:=
:=:=2) Keith isn't the only one who found the original post by Atty to be questionable:
:=
:=If he wasn't, then he was the only one to offer his opinion. If more people spoke up like him and not kept their opinions to themselves this forum would be a lot healthier and more problems could be resolved with healthy discussions. Can you pass the message on to all the people you know who found Attys original post questionable to contact this forum or us personally to offer their opinions as its no good just telling you While on the subject did you find anything questionable about it and if so what?

Actually I found this part questionable:

:=last month we were voting for new committee members for bsac so now prove your worth and at least accept there is a problem get your heads out of the sand pit and act !!!!

Especially as Phil Harrison has apparently been trying to help, this was not even mentioned in the first posting.... which did come across as a bit of a whine to me.
Not forgetting the later nit picking about whether it's 'Sport Wales' or "The Sports Council for Wales"
Come on guys, you catch more flies with jam than with vinegar.

I didn't get involved with this argument as it just diverts attention away from the original problem.
This problem isn't one of BSAC's making is it?
Any fault surely lies with WASAC, and whoever appoints the governing body for Wales.
It may not be BSAC making but they are the only ones to get Wales out of this mess. If you had spent considerable time and effort compiling a claim for money only to be told that your governing body (wasac) refuse to reply then I think you would be as frustrated as Atty is. Think of the SAA in England and their frustrations until BSAC were allowed to represent them for lottery funding. As for Keith doing it voluntarily it is comendable but if he jumps in feet first then he must take the critisism that goes with it.And if you think it is a whine then again think why he has to resort to this forum when P.Harrison is still burying his head in the sand.

[Andy Wade]

:=:=:=:=I am amazed at Keith Lawrence?s attitude towards lottery funding I hope that this is only his opinion and not that of the council as a whole; otherwise this organisation is in dire straights.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=As much as I'm sympathetic to the problems you've got with your WASAC issue(s), I'd just like to point out a couple of things:
:=:=:=
:=:=:=1) Keith moderates this forum voluntarily, this is not something BSAC pays him to do, and causes no small amount of grief to him which I'm sure he could probably do without, so let's not get too carried away with the criticisms of how he does this essentially thankless task.
:=:=
:=:=Yes Keith does moderate the forum but surely if he wants to make comment/critisism on someones posting he must expect that person to defend/explain his views. That is the point of such forums and Keith I am sure will be the first to agree with that. I think its called free speech
:=:=
:=:=:=2) Keith isn't the only one who found the original post by Atty to be questionable:
:=:=
:=:=If he wasn't, then he was the only one to offer his opinion. If more people spoke up like him and not kept their opinions to themselves this forum would be a lot healthier and more problems could be resolved with healthy discussions. Can you pass the message on to all the people you know who found Attys original post questionable to contact this forum or us personally to offer their opinions as its no good just telling you While on the subject did you find anything questionable about it and if so what?
:=
:=Actually I found this part questionable:
:=
:=:=last month we were voting for new committee members for bsac so now prove your worth and at least accept there is a problem get your heads out of the sand pit and act !!!!
:=
:=Especially as Phil Harrison has apparently been trying to help, this was not even mentioned in the first posting.... which did come across as a bit of a whine to me.
:=Not forgetting the later nit picking about whether it's 'Sport Wales' or "The Sports Council for Wales"
:=Come on guys, you catch more flies with jam than with vinegar.
:=
:=I didn't get involved with this argument as it just diverts attention away from the original problem.
:=This problem isn't one of BSAC's making is it?
:=Any fault surely lies with WASAC, and whoever appoints the governing body for Wales.

It may not be BSAC making but they are the only ones to get Wales out of this mess. If you had spent considerable time and effort compiling a claim for money only to be told that your governing body (wasac) refuse to reply then I think you would be as frustrated as Atty is. Think of the SAA in England and their frustrations until BSAC were allowed to represent them for lottery funding. As for Keith doing it voluntarily it is comendable but if he jumps in feet first then he must take the critisism that goes with it.
And if you think it is a whine then again think why he has to resort to this forum when P.Harrison is still burying his head in the sand.

Why?
How about supporting them?
And we wonder why BSAC council members etc refrain from answering questions on the forum.
All this arguing and backbiting isn't helping anyone.
I appreciate the frustrations here, but having a go at people who are probably the only persons who can help is likely to be counter-productive.
.....I wonder when someone is going to have a dig at me for daring to suggest that people calm down?

Calm down calm down!.... Don't you tell me to calm down! Are you looking for a fight eh? Don't come here asking me for a fight!....
;-)
(That was a joke, OK?)

[Mike Halligan]

Yes Keith does moderate the forum but surely if he wants to make comment/critisism on someones posting he must expect that person to defend/explain his views. That is the point of such forums and Keith I am sure will be the first to agree with that. I think its called free speech

Free speech is fine, until the line is crossed into unreasonable criticism. Keith (who needs no defence from me for the excellent job he does) in attempting to tone down needless criticism of others has drawn fire onto himself and yet still undertaken to try and help.

:=2) Keith isn't the only one who found the original post by Atty to be questionable:

If he wasn't, then he was the only one to offer his opinion. If more people spoke up like him and not kept their opinions to themselves this forum would be a lot healthier and more problems could be resolved with healthy discussions. Can you pass the message on to all the people you know who found Attys original post questionable to contact this forum or us personally to offer their opinions as its no good just telling you While on the subject did you find anything questionable about it and if so what?

Are you suggesting that we should pile in with "And me", "hear, Hear" etc.? Keith expressed a view and it is only since he was leapt upon that others feel inclined to add their voices. We are committed divers, not MPs.

Yes, I did find the original post questionable.
"Its windfalls like this and the hardwork of members and committee of branches that help keep branches ticking over. ",
"you have to also subscribe membership to the Welsh assosiation of sub aqua clubs (w.a.s.a.c.) so thats 2 lots of subscriptions , not a problem but for over a year there has been no contact with (w.a.s.a.c.) no subscriptions taken " &
"at least accept there is a problem get your heads out of the sand pit and act "
All three =appeared=to=me= disingenuous.

Atty isn't complaining that funding is not his diving. I suggest you read his thread again, what he would like is a level playing field for all BSAC/SAA members and not to be put at a disavantage just because of a geographical location. Atty is one of the most commited fund raising I have ever met and although everybody in his club mucks in his organisation of events over the last few years has patially funded a new boat,compressor and extension of the club premises. On top of that Phil does not actually need to do this work as he owns his own boat on which he regularly takes divers out for the day. So please do not claim he his whining as he is not

Whatever it may be in reality, it looks like whining. There is a level playing field, except in Wales, where the Sports Council of Wales has elected to skew it. There, the BSAC (which is not recognised) is attempting to rectify that on behalf of all divers (those who do and those who don't subscribe). Since Wales has its own Sports Council, international teams, etc. is it likely that the practices of Sport England will be duplicated? I would have expected SCoW and Sport Scotland to devise their own and then apply them on different but level playing fields.

Mike

[MarkA]

Andy
the point about Sport Wales and the Sports Council for Wales thing because if people are putting the time into this problem problem that they say they are surely they would by now know the names of the organisations that they have been dealing with

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

It may not be BSAC making but they are the only ones to get Wales out of this mess.

FALSE : Any problems are indeed not of the BSAC making but it is the Welsh divers, with the assistance of the BSAC and WASAC where the solution lies. The BSAC itself CANNOT solve this, offers of assistance to help the Welsh divers solve it themselves have, so far, been turned down.

Think of the SAA in England and their frustrations until BSAC were allowed to represent them for lottery funding.

MISLEADING : It is the Sports Council For Wales and WASAC who administer lottery funding in Wales. The SAA situation was an ENGLISH situation where, as we are the GB in England, it WAS down to us to resolve. Which is exactly what we did.

As for Keith doing it voluntarily it is comendable but if he jumps in feet first then he must take the critisism that goes with it.And if you think it is a whine then again think why he has to resort to this forum when P.Harrison is still burying his head in the sand.

FALSE : Having now actually spoken to Phil Harrision, who has ONCE AGAIN spent several hours trying to assist people in resolving this, any claim to us burying our heads in the sand is totally false and IMHO now bordering on malicious.

Now pack it in Howard. You and your branch buddies all know what the situation actually is and you all know what the solution is as well. A solution that nobody, at present, seems to want to help to bring about. You also know damn well that the BSAC cannot actually do what you are demanding because of the structure of Sports Councils and national GB's within the UK.

The solution is in YOUR hands - support and work with WASAC, work with the Sports Council For Wales, sort out your local problems yourselves with assistance from the BSAC if needed. If you are not prepared to help yourselves then =DO NOT= complain when the BSAC, who are powerless in this situation, don't do it for you. Some acknowledgement of the considerable time and effor put in by BSAC officials on your behalf would also be appreciated. Some people may like to note that nobody, apart from the Chairman of the BSAC, has bothered so far to contact me by telephone to help resolve things.

Now can we stop this please? I just do not see the point in these false accusations and misleading comparisons when we all know what the real situation is. I would also like to thank those other ordinary members who have helped to put some perspective into this and commented on the reality of lottery funding. As all of the posts "complaining" about what the BSAC has (or hasn't) been doing originate from within the same branch the wider view is appreciated.

Kind Regards

Keith L

[howard lewis]

:=:=:=:=:=I am amazed at Keith Lawrence?s attitude towards lottery funding I hope that this is only his opinion and not that of the council as a whole; otherwise this organisation is in dire straights.
:=:=:=:=
:=:=:=:=As much as I'm sympathetic to the problems you've got with your WASAC issue(s), I'd just like to point out a couple of things:
:=:=:=:=
:=:=:=:=1) Keith moderates this forum voluntarily, this is not something BSAC pays him to do, and causes no small amount of grief to him which I'm sure he could probably do without, so let's not get too carried away with the criticisms of how he does this essentially thankless task.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Yes Keith does moderate the forum but surely if he wants to make comment/critisism on someones posting he must expect that person to defend/explain his views. That is the point of such forums and Keith I am sure will be the first to agree with that. I think its called free speech
:=:=:=
:=:=:=:=2) Keith isn't the only one who found the original post by Atty to be questionable:
:=:=:=
:=:=:=If he wasn't, then he was the only one to offer his opinion. If more people spoke up like him and not kept their opinions to themselves this forum would be a lot healthier and more problems could be resolved with healthy discussions. Can you pass the message on to all the people you know who found Attys original post questionable to contact this forum or us personally to offer their opinions as its no good just telling you While on the subject did you find anything questionable about it and if so what?
:=:=
:=:=Actually I found this part questionable:
:=:=
:=:=:=last month we were voting for new committee members for bsac so now prove your worth and at least accept there is a problem get your heads out of the sand pit and act !!!!
:=:=
:=:=Especially as Phil Harrison has apparently been trying to help, this was not even mentioned in the first posting.... which did come across as a bit of a whine to me.
:=:=Not forgetting the later nit picking about whether it's 'Sport Wales' or "The Sports Council for Wales"
:=:=Come on guys, you catch more flies with jam than with vinegar.
:=:=
:=:=I didn't get involved with this argument as it just diverts attention away from the original problem.
:=:=This problem isn't one of BSAC's making is it?
:=:=Any fault surely lies with WASAC, and whoever appoints the governing body for Wales.

:=It may not be BSAC making but they are the only ones to get Wales out of this mess. If you had spent considerable time and effort compiling a claim for money only to be told that your governing body (wasac) refuse to reply then I think you would be as frustrated as Atty is. Think of the SAA in England and their frustrations until BSAC were allowed to represent them for lottery funding. As for Keith doing it voluntarily it is comendable but if he jumps in feet first then he must take the critisism that goes with it.
:=And if you think it is a whine then again think why he has to resort to this forum when P.Harrison is still burying his head in the sand.

Why?
How about supporting them?
And we wonder why BSAC council members etc refrain from answering questions on the forum.
All this arguing and backbiting isn't helping anyone.
I appreciate the frustrations here, but having a go at people who are probably the only persons who can help is likely to be counter-productive.
.....I wonder when someone is going to have a dig at me for daring to suggest that people calm down?

Calm down calm down!.... Don't you tell me to calm down! Are you looking for a fight eh? Don't come here asking me for a fight!....
;-)
(That was a joke, OK?)
What do you mean calm down you started talking about something you knew absolutly nothing about. I.E. dont you think we have tried to help.Try over 100 phone calls and e:mails to the present diving officer and chairman with no response. Our club has supported WASAC over many years. It was once a great club organising things like a rapids run every year, gala, annual conference, a survey on tidal races in our area and other many wothwhile events. So please dont lecture me on calming down until you have the full facts at hand. Or is this really your way off getting of on things.Have a nice day.

[howard lewis]

:=It may not be BSAC making but they are the only ones to get Wales out of this mess.

FALSE : Any problems are indeed not of the BSAC making but it is the Welsh divers, with the assistance of the BSAC and WASAC where the solution lies. The BSAC itself CANNOT solve this, offers of assistance to help the Welsh divers solve it themselves have, so far, been turned down.

:=Think of the SAA in England and their frustrations until BSAC were allowed to represent them for lottery funding.

MISLEADING : It is the Sports Council For Wales and WASAC who administer lottery funding in Wales. The SAA situation was an ENGLISH situation where, as we are the GB in England, it WAS down to us to resolve. Which is exactly what we did.

:= As for Keith doing it voluntarily it is comendable but if he jumps in feet first then he must take the critisism that goes with it.And if you think it is a whine then again think why he has to resort to this forum when P.Harrison is still burying his head in the sand.

FALSE : Having now actually spoken to Phil Harrision, who has ONCE AGAIN spent several hours trying to assist people in resolving this, any claim to us burying our heads in the sand is totally false and IMHO now bordering on malicious.

Now pack it in Howard. You and your branch buddies all know what the situation actually is and you all know what the solution is as well. A solution that nobody, at present, seems to want to help to bring about. You also know damn well that the BSAC cannot actually do what you are demanding because of the structure of Sports Councils and national GB's within the UK.

The solution is in YOUR hands - support and work with WASAC, work with the Sports Council For Wales, sort out your local problems yourselves with assistance from the BSAC if needed. If you are not prepared to help yourselves then =DO NOT= complain when the BSAC, who are powerless in this situation, don't do it for you. Some acknowledgement of the considerable time and effor put in by BSAC officials on your behalf would also be appreciated. Some people may like to note that nobody, apart from the Chairman of the BSAC, has bothered so far to contact me by telephone to help resolve things.

Now can we stop this please? I just do not see the point in these false accusations and misleading comparisons when we all know what the real situation is. I would also like to thank those other ordinary members who have helped to put some perspective into this and commented on the reality of lottery funding. As all of the posts "complaining" about what the BSAC has (or hasn't) been doing originate from within the same branch the wider view is appreciated.

Kind Regards

Keith L
Sorry Keith but you cannot know how hard we have tried to work with WASAC it is only out of desperation that we have resorted to this.As for the sports councill they are as frustrated as us that WASAC wont reply to their offers of help. If Phil has actually done that amount of work then perhaps he could let us know. I can only tell you that WASAC have taken no funds for 2 years. They cannot therefore exist. If you talked to anybody at a Welsh dive site I can assure you they are as frustrated as us.I must again re-iterate we have tried to work with them.

[Marka]

You are all still missing the point here
There is no WASAC to deal with
They are just amemory but still a millstone around our neck
If WASAC still existed why will they not speak to people

All the Best

Mark

[edward haynes]

I can't help but think if you had contacted your Local Parish Councillor or MP over a hundred times they might be a bit worried about your vote next time (especially with so few people voting).

If your Governing Body isn't working then surely it's those that appointed it in the first place you should be speaking to. As others have said, a body outside the country can't just say "Hay we are now the GB". It doesn't work that way.

Edward
(prepared to be harpooned)

What do you mean calm down you started talking about something you knew absolutly nothing about. I.E. dont you think we have tried to help.Try over 100 phone calls and e:mails to the present diving officer and chairman with no response. Our club has supported WASAC over many years. It was once a great club organising things like a rapids run every year, gala, annual conference, a survey on tidal races in our area and other many wothwhile events. So please dont lecture me on calming down until you have the full facts at hand. Or is this really your way off getting of on things.Have a nice day.

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

You are all still missing the point here
There is no WASAC to deal with
They are just amemory but still a millstone around our neck
If WASAC still existed why will they not speak to people

Mark, I know that you have spoken to and corresponded with our Chairman at some length about this quite recently. I also believe that our Chairman has spoken to existing executive members of WASAC very recently. My information is that there are executive positions available within WASAC that they would dearly love to be filled by Welsh divers to assist them in their work, but despite various protestations about the problems within WASAC nobody is actually prepeared to stand for these positions and help resolve the situation!

Is that true or not Mark? Because if the people complaining about this are not prepeared to help and support WASAC and resolve this themselves then there is very little that an English GB can do to help you with your Welsh problems.

My information is that WASAC =DOES= exist and needs some help but nobody is offering any. The BSAC supports WASAC and their position as the GB of the sport in Wales, it is not our place to interfer in Welsh matters. I also note that it is only one club who seem to be vocal on this matter.

Regards

Keith L

[Andy Wade]

:=:=:=:=:=:=I am amazed at Keith Lawrence?s attitude towards lottery funding I hope that this is only his opinion and not that of the council as a whole; otherwise this organisation is in dire straights.
:=:=:=:=:=
:=:=:=:=:=As much as I'm sympathetic to the problems you've got with your WASAC issue(s), I'd just like to point out a couple of things:
:=:=:=:=:=
:=:=:=:=:=1) Keith moderates this forum voluntarily, this is not something BSAC pays him to do, and causes no small amount of grief to him which I'm sure he could probably do without, so let's not get too carried away with the criticisms of how he does this essentially thankless task.
:=:=:=:=
:=:=:=:=Yes Keith does moderate the forum but surely if he wants to make comment/critisism on someones posting he must expect that person to defend/explain his views. That is the point of such forums and Keith I am sure will be the first to agree with that. I think its called free speech
:=:=:=:=
:=:=:=:=:=2) Keith isn't the only one who found the original post by Atty to be questionable:
:=:=:=:=
:=:=:=:=If he wasn't, then he was the only one to offer his opinion. If more people spoke up like him and not kept their opinions to themselves this forum would be a lot healthier and more problems could be resolved with healthy discussions. Can you pass the message on to all the people you know who found Attys original post questionable to contact this forum or us personally to offer their opinions as its no good just telling you While on the subject did you find anything questionable about it and if so what?
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Actually I found this part questionable:
:=:=:=
:=:=:=:=last month we were voting for new committee members for bsac so now prove your worth and at least accept there is a problem get your heads out of the sand pit and act !!!!
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Especially as Phil Harrison has apparently been trying to help, this was not even mentioned in the first posting.... which did come across as a bit of a whine to me.
:=:=:=Not forgetting the later nit picking about whether it's 'Sport Wales' or "The Sports Council for Wales"
:=:=:=Come on guys, you catch more flies with jam than with vinegar.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=I didn't get involved with this argument as it just diverts attention away from the original problem.
:=:=:=This problem isn't one of BSAC's making is it?
:=:=:=Any fault surely lies with WASAC, and whoever appoints the governing body for Wales.
:=
:=:=It may not be BSAC making but they are the only ones to get Wales out of this mess. If you had spent considerable time and effort compiling a claim for money only to be told that your governing body (wasac) refuse to reply then I think you would be as frustrated as Atty is. Think of the SAA in England and their frustrations until BSAC were allowed to represent them for lottery funding. As for Keith doing it voluntarily it is comendable but if he jumps in feet first then he must take the critisism that goes with it.
:=:=And if you think it is a whine then again think why he has to resort to this forum when P.Harrison is still burying his head in the sand.
:=
:=Why?
:=How about supporting them?
:=And we wonder why BSAC council members etc refrain from answering questions on the forum.
:=All this arguing and backbiting isn't helping anyone.
:=I appreciate the frustrations here, but having a go at people who are probably the only persons who can help is likely to be counter-productive.
:=.....I wonder when someone is going to have a dig at me for daring to suggest that people calm down?
:=
:=Calm down calm down!.... Don't you tell me to calm down! Are you looking for a fight eh? Don't come here asking me for a fight!....
:=;-)
:=(That was a joke, OK?)
What do you mean calm down you started talking about something you knew absolutly nothing about. I.E. dont you think we have tried to help.Try over 100 phone calls and e:mails to the present diving officer and chairman with no response. Our club has supported WASAC over many years. It was once a great club organising things like a rapids run every year, gala, annual conference, a survey on tidal races in our area and other many wothwhile events. So please dont lecture me on calming down until you have the full facts at hand. Or is this really your way off getting of on things.Have a nice day.

I don't need to know about it Howard.
I'm an Englishman living in England, BSAC is my governing body and Wales is governed by WASAC. Whether or not they exist now.
Do you think the Scots would give a monkey's about England and BSAC?
Don't get me wrong, (I see you already have done that anyway) I do sympathise with your predicament, but it won't do you any good at all coming on the BSAC forum and starting to shout the odds.
It ain't our fault and it ain't our problem.
There, you see what you've done? You've alienated me to your plight for one thing, and I rarely get pi**ed off about these things.
Nice one.

[Andy Wade]

Andy
the point about Sport Wales and the Sports Council for Wales thing because if people are putting the time into this problem problem that they say they are surely they would by now know the names of the organisations that they have been dealing with

Indeed, and we call them 'Sport England', so it follows that it would be Sport Wales. No big deal surely?

<a href="http://www.sportengland.org/" >http://www.sportengland.org/</a>

Thanks for the link anyway, I see that WASAC isn't listed on their website as the governing body for Wales.
Have you contacted them to ask why?
Does this mean that the situation is vacant?

[Philip Smith]

I don't need to know about it Howard.
I'm an Englishman living in England, BSAC is my governing body and Wales is governed by WASAC. Whether or not they exist now.
Don't get me wrong, (I see you already have done that anyway) I do sympathise with your predicament, but it won't do you any good at all coming on the BSAC forum and starting to shout the odds.

Err, most of the 'clubs' in WASAC will have been BSAC branches, so this forum is a perfectly valid place to discuss this issue. Presumably most of the other clubs in WASAC were SAA. As I understand it, WASAC was an association of diving clubs from different 'governing bodies' (i.e. BSAC and SAA), rather than a unitary governing body in itself, although the Sports Council for Wales seems to have designated WASAC a 'recognised national governing body' for the purposes of allocating lottery funding. Each of the national sports funding bodies in England, Scotland and Wales recognises more than one governing body for some sports, but for some reason the English and Welsh sports councils only recognise one governing body for sub-aqua (BSAC and WASAC, respectively).
Life would be simpler if the sports councils recognised each of the extant bona fide governing bodies of the sport in the UK.

Philip Smith

[Khaled Alwassia]

Dear Keith and all others,
With what i am going to say I may upset some but that is the few of a NON UK person.
The last time i checked the club was named "British Sub Aqua Club" that to my knowledge includes Wales, England and some other minor or rather major parts (depending who you talk to) of the UK.

Wales has some what of an independance i think, but it is still part of the area, country, UK, British Islands or what every you want to call it(i am sure i mis-called it hear).

Point is BSAC should and must step up to the task. That would resemble the kind of leadership BSAC has displayed in the past 5 decades in the field of Scuba Diving. Why not now? Politics??????

Lets please concentrate on solving the problem and let me continue beleaving in the mythos of the British Gentlemen.

[Nigel Hewitt]

The last time i checked the club was named "British Sub Aqua Club" that to my knowledge includes Wales, England and some other minor or rather major parts (depending who you talk to) of the UK.

What is in a name? The problem is jurisdiction. A Welsh club applies for grants from the Welsh Sport people via a Welsh Governing Body. If my club started trying for a grant and getting the SSAC involved when we are in Sussex everybody would think we were mad. We may feel very supportive of these guys and feel that they are getting a raw deal if I start making noises about how badly Wales is run it can be pointed out that this is not my business.

If the problem really is that the WASAC just hasn't got people to do this work I can quite understand. Working for a national body is offering yourself as a target for all the slings and arrows of outrageous whatsit. If no Welshmen can be found to do this job that probably shows that the Welsh are smarter than Keith. 8-)

nigelH

[Andy Wade]

:=I don't need to know about it Howard.
:=I'm an Englishman living in England, BSAC is my governing body and Wales is governed by WASAC. Whether or not they exist now.
:=Don't get me wrong, (I see you already have done that anyway) I do sympathise with your predicament, but it won't do you any good at all coming on the BSAC forum and starting to shout the odds.

Err, most of the 'clubs' in WASAC will have been BSAC branches, so this forum is a perfectly valid place to discuss this issue. Presumably most of the other clubs in WASAC were SAA. As I understand it, WASAC was an association of diving clubs from different 'governing bodies' (i.e. BSAC and SAA), rather than a unitary governing body in itself, although the Sports Council for Wales seems to have designated WASAC a 'recognised national governing body' for the purposes of allocating lottery funding. Each of the national sports funding bodies in England, Scotland and Wales recognises more than one governing body for some sports, but for some reason the English and Welsh sports councils only recognise one governing body for sub-aqua (BSAC and WASAC, respectively).
Life would be simpler if the sports councils recognised each of the extant bona fide governing bodies of the sport in the UK.

That's not quite the point I was making.
My point was that it doesn't do anyone any good coming on to the forums and shouting the odds, as all it does it divert the argument elsewhere.
I'm well aware of the political situation as I used to be in a Welsh club.
I think that if I went to SCOTSAC's website and complained that BSAC had folded and demanded that they do something about it 'cos I couldn't get a lottery grant, I would get shouted down as a bl**dy sassenach upstart or similar.
I invite these chaps to write it all down in another thread in this vein but without the complaining, then we can get on with sensibly discussing a solution if it's possible. Please chaps, stop slinging mud at BSAC and ask for help in a reasonable manner, you'll get at least my support anyway. (For what it's worth)

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

If no Welshmen can be found to do this job that probably shows that the Welsh are smarter than Keith. 8-)

Oi! You may have a point there... ;-)

K

[Marka]

Err, most of the 'clubs' in WASAC will have been BSAC branches, so this forum is a perfectly valid place to discuss this issue. Presumably most of the other clubs in WASAC were SAA. As I understand it, WASAC was an association of diving clubs from different 'governing bodies' (i.e. BSAC and SAA), rather than a unitary governing body in itself, although the Sports Council for Wales seems to have designated WASAC a 'recognised national governing body' for the purposes of allocating lottery funding. Each of the national sports funding bodies in England, Scotland and Wales recognises more than one governing body for some sports, but for some reason the English and Welsh sports councils only recognise one governing body for sub-aqua (BSAC and WASAC, respectively).
Life would be simpler if the sports councils recognised each of the extant bona fide governing bodies of the sport in the UK.

Philip Smith

Phillip
A bit of sense at last
A nice change from the "Stuff you I'm alright Jack" attitude from Andy.

Mark

[Marka]

Mark, I know that you have spoken to and corresponded with our Chairman at some length about this quite recently. I also believe that our Chairman has spoken to existing executive members of WASAC very recently.
Keith. You are right Phil has spoken to the nominal Chaiaman of WASAC. But this chairman will not speak to anyone else within Wales.
My information is that there are executive positions available within WASAC that they would dearly love to be filled by Welsh divers to assist them
If has he claims there are executive positions to be filled in WASAC , surely the best way to fill these would be let people know at their meetings. Sorry I forgot they do not have any meetings anymore the last one being the begining of April 2003. Another way of letting people know could be writing to thier member clubs, sorry I forgot they do not have any member clubs anymore. Another way could be to talk to people, Sorry I forgot they do not talk to people anymore

in their work,
Work???

but despite various protestations about the problems within WASAC nobody is actually prepeared to stand for these positions and help resolve the situation!

You cannot stand for positions in an organisation who has no correspondance, No members and no meeting or for that matter does not exist
Is that true or not Mark? Because if the people complaining about this are not prepeared to help and support WASAC and resolve this themselves then there is very little that an English GB can do to help you with your Welsh problems.

Keith
people were prepared to help and support WASAC until its commitee went into a self imposed exile
Our club has always supported its events and has always attended its meetings and have always had the highest attendance figure of any club at their annual conference and for the majority of its history(Until recent years) provided at least one commitee member

My information is that WASAC =DOES= exist and needs some help but nobody is offering any.

Sorry but that is so ill informed

The BSAC supports WASAC and their position as the GB of the sport in Wales, it is not our place to interfer in Welsh matters. I also note that it is only one club who seem to be vocal on this matter.

You want names of clubs who are disatisfied with the situation and all you have to do is listen on any slipway in Wales on any weekend. but if you want we can provide names of clubs but that could take a few days as I would not want to name clubs or individuals without their permission.
Not heard from WASAC on this one yet either. perhaps if we did it would make it all worthwhile
Cheers Keith

Mark (off diving now for the rest of the weekend)


Regards

Keith L

[Marka]

Nigel
Most of the clubs concerned are still BSAC clubs and pay the same subscriptions as you and every other UK clubs members.
WAsac DOES NOT EXIST.
We do not want handouts what we would like is help and advice in sorting this matter from an organisation who deals with governing bodies and sports councils on a day to day basis. Thwe BSAC are the proffesionals but the only help we have had until now is to tell us to getoff our [REMOVED:KL] and do something or talk to someone. Thats what we are trying to do but nobody wants to listen.

[John Williams]

Phillip
A bit of sense at last
A nice change from the "Stuff you I'm alright Jack" attitude from Andy.

Mark

Actually Andy generally makes a lot of sense - AND goes out of his way, giving up his time, energy and effort to make sure that "Jack" is just as OK as Andy is!.

Please listen to what he has to say. Both Andy and I sympathise with your predicament - but asking for helpm in a sensible, constructive and conciliatory fashion will get you much more support than shouting and screaming insults at those who might be able to help you get what you want. Remember that all of BSAC Council are volunteers and they give their time because they enjoy helping. The minute that you make the experience of helping you unenjoyable then they are well within their rights to completely ignore you in favour of helping others who ask nicely and appreciate the help that they receive.

John

[John Williams]

"WASAC was an association of diving clubs from different 'governing bodies' (i.e. BSAC and SAA), rather than a unitary governing body in itself, although the Sports Council for Wales seems to have designated WASAC a 'recognised national governing body' for the purposes of allocating lottery funding."

So - whilst WASAC was in existence all diving clubs (regardless of affiliation to specific training codes) were treated equally?

All had equal access to lottery funding?

That sounds much fairer than the system imposed upon us by the politicians in the other kingdoms that make up the UK.

Your beef seems to be with the polititians in the Principality. They are still recognising the defunct WASAC as the Governing Body - and without a functioning Governing Body you cannot gain access to Lottery Funding. (am I right so far?)

The BSAC cannot force your polititians to accept them as Governing Body - and even if it did then you'd only inherit the unfair system that we have in England (one that excludes clubs that are not BSAC - or that have an agreement/association throught he BSAC).

Why did WASAC fail? Did you put as much effort into making WASAC work as you are now putting into "pestering" the BSAC to do something about a political situation over which it clearly has no control?

Don't get me wrong - every member of the BSAC (and especially those that have VOLUNTEERED to serve on Council) is keen for all divers to be treated fairly. Your situation is clearly unfair (so we all want to help) - BUT...and it's a BIG but...

How do you think slagging off those who might help you is going to support your goals?

You are showing the polititians that you beleive that the BSAC is a means to an end - you are demonstrating by your actions that YOU don't beleive BSAC is representative of the divers in the Principality... how do you think that this will encourage the polititians to beleive that the BSAC can unify and represent divers there?

Please allow us (all UK divers) to work with you and to support your goals - without all the counter-productive rhetoric.

John

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

You want names of clubs who are disatisfied with the situation and all you have to do is listen on any slipway in Wales on any weekend. but if you want we can provide names of clubs but that could take a few days as I would not want to name clubs or individuals without their permission.
Not heard from WASAC on this one yet either. perhaps if we did it would make it all worthwhile

Hi Mark

I am seeking clarification on the current status of WASAC, that may take me a few days.

A list of clubs/members who want to complain about the situation isn't going to progress things very far. However, a list of clubs/members who are willing to get together and put in the time and effort to resolve the issues between SCFW and WASAC would be a very positive move indeed.

If, as I claim, WASAC exists then people willing to help them and run a national GB would I'm sure be very welcome. If, as you claim, WASAC doesn't exist then you are going to need a new core of people to create a new GB for Wales.

Either way I am sure that the BSAC would give you whatever support that you need, but both ways require the Welsh divers to assist in the sorting out of any local problems. The BSAC =CANNOT= do this for you.

You know the structure of the various Sports Councils and national GB's Mark, it is simply not possible for an English GB to go marching in and take over the GB status for Welsh sport! We of course support WASAC just as we support SSAC, but we can't run them and we wouldn't want to as the local knowledge and interfaces with local politicians and assembly members just wouldn't be there.

I say again - the solution is in the hands of the Welsh divers.

Keith L

[David G]

:=You want names of clubs who are disatisfied with the situation and all you have to do is listen on any slipway in Wales on any weekend. but if you want we can provide names of clubs but that could take a few days as I would not want to name clubs or individuals without their permission.
:=Not heard from WASAC on this one yet either. perhaps if we did it would make it all worthwhile

Hi Mark

I am seeking clarification on the current status of WASAC, that may take me a few days.

A list of clubs/members who want to complain about the situation isn't going to progress things very far. However, a list of clubs/members who are willing to get together and put in the time and effort to resolve the issues between SCFW and WASAC would be a very positive move indeed.

If, as I claim, WASAC exists then people willing to help them and run a national GB would I'm sure be very welcome. If, as you claim, WASAC doesn't exist then you are going to need a new core of people to create a new GB for Wales.

Either way I am sure that the BSAC would give you whatever support that you need, but both ways require the Welsh divers to assist in the sorting out of any local problems. The BSAC =CANNOT= do this for you.

You know the structure of the various Sports Councils and national GB's Mark, it is simply not possible for an English GB to go marching in and take over the GB status for Welsh sport! We of course support WASAC just as we support SSAC, but we can't run them and we wouldn't want to as the local knowledge and interfaces with local politicians and assembly members just wouldn't be there.

I say again - the solution is in the hands of the Welsh divers.

Keith L
Here is my twopenneth worth....

I have stayed out of this emotive debate for the last few days because I now live in England but I was for a while a member of a Welsh BSAC branch (and it wasn't Mark, Phill or Howard's!).

My impression over this time was that WASAC was much more like WESSFED or one of the other regional groups of diving clubs that exist all around the UK...not an organisation which could easily take on the mantle of a Governing Body like BSAC does in England.

During my time in Wales the main members of the WASAC committee tended to be active BSAC members, often husband and wife teams. In the mid 1990s (and before) there was an exhilarating annual riding the rapids run, an annual conference with some great speakers and an annual water gala and in latter years a website, www.wasac.org but it doesn't appear to exist anymore and I fear none of the other activities do either.

I was treasurer of the welsh club for a while and WASAC were, unfortunately, very bad at cashing membership subscription cheques. They were also unable to update their database with who was our Club Chairman and who was our WASAC representative. This was probably because the people running WASAC were also running their local BSAC branch, were also trying to go diving and were also trying to work and live with their families!!

I can imagine that these current threads have come about because these Guys at Cynon Valley have been pulling their hair out (Mark hasn't got much as it is ;-) ) trying to move things on, not to stir up trouble with the Sports people in Wales or BSAC. In fact, if my memory serves me right, Phill was Equipment Officer for WASAC for a number of years, responsible for several resusci-annes, several O2 kits, several sets of pool kit and other valuable equipment that could be hired by clubs that couldn't afford it themselves. Phill, certainly, has already been standing up and has been counted within the remit of helping WASAC.

So what is the way forward, solutions are required!

Why can not the "powers that be" in Wales have the British Sub-Aqua Club (not English) as their governing body? Who has to make representations to whom for this to happen?

Why can not WASAC (if the welsh clubs actually want it) be a regional association of diving clubs (multi-agency) helping each other out just like WESSFED or NORFED do?

What am I missing?.......

regards,

David
ex-member of a different club in Wales!

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Thnak you very much for that brief history David, very informative and it gives some of the background.

So what is the way forward, solutions are required!

Why can not the "powers that be" in Wales have the British Sub-Aqua Club (not English) as their governing body? Who has to make representations to whom for this to happen?

This would be a matter for the SCFW and the Welsh National Assembly. It is the SCFW that make the rules and administer the GB scheme - you have to fit in whith their rules to be a GB. I suspect that there is a presumption against hiving off to England such Welsh matters, having had a successful GB in the past the preference must be to have one again.

We all know what politicians are like if you want to change something, it is always much easier/quicker to work with what you have. So, in order of preference I would suggest -

1. Fix the existing WASAC, it already has GB status and a good history to fall back upon.

2. Replace WASAC with another body of Welsh divers.

3. Look at alternatives such as an English GB.

Now, until you have completely exhausted the first two I suspect that there is absolutely no point in pursuing the third option - you will be told to go away and try the first two first! If WASAC still exists as I believe that it does (although it may be inactive) then you'll be shown the door pretty quickly.

Why can not WASAC (if the welsh clubs actually want it) be a regional association of diving clubs (multi-agency) helping each other out just like WESSFED or NORFED do?

A very good suggestion for consideration, this fits in with the prefered option 1. above.

What am I missing?.......

I don't think that you're missing anything David, I feel that you understand the situation very well, probably better than me as this is well outside of my normal areas.

But as I =KEEP= on saying the running with this has got to be with the Welsh divers and dive clubs. Shouting at the BSAC "do something" and then claiming that we're not doing anything (despite the time that Phil H has personally put into it) because we cannot does not feature on anybodies list of preferred solutions and gets us nowhere.

Keith L

[Philip Smith]

Your beef seems to be with the polititians in the Principality. They are still recognising the defunct WASAC as the Governing Body - and without a functioning Governing Body you cannot gain access to Lottery Funding. (am I right so far?)

Not my beef, John. I am a neutral third party (although a long time ago I was a member of a BSAC branch in Wales).

Philip Smith

[Philip Smith]

You know the structure of the various Sports Councils and national GB's Mark, it is simply not possible for an English GB to go marching in and take over the GB status for Welsh sport!

BSAC has a dual role in this context. In England, BSAC is the recognised national governing body for the sport of sub-aqua. However, it also the governing body of all of the BSAC branches throughout the UK and the rest of the world which are affiliated to it. It sounds as though WASAC was not really a governing body in the normal sense (WASAC did not "govern" Welsh BSAC branches), but it was a convenient multi-agency umbrella with which to obtain funding. It is reasonable for BSAC to lobby on behalf of BSAC branches in Wales, e.g. for BSAC to be recognised as one of a number of bona fide governing bodies of sub-aqua, particularly if it was done in conjunction with the SAA and any others with a claim.

Philip Smith

[Philip Smith]

I think that if I went to SCOTSAC's website and complained that BSAC had folded and demanded that they do something about it 'cos I couldn't get a lottery grant, I would get shouted down as a bl**dy sassenach upstart or similar.

Andy, that is not a relevant comparison and it shows that you're still missing the point. SSAC is an independent governing body (older than BSAC and the main one recognised by Sport Scotland). WASAC was not really a "governing body" as such, but a multi-agency association of clubs, including BSAC branches. Whether or not WASAC still exists, BSAC should be looking after the interests of BSAC branches in Wales as much as in England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, or overseas. BSAC is not an "English governing body" (ask the new NDO!); it is the governing body for all BSAC branches everywhere. It so happens that it is also the only national governing body for sub-aqua recognised by Sport England.

I agree with you that the bitter tone used initially was not guaranteed to elicit universal support, but it seems as though it was borne out of deep frustration. If WASAC cannot be resurrected, this issue needs to be resolved at a high level. My suggestion is that the chairmen of BSAC, the SAA and any other organisations who came under the WASAC umbrella jointly lobby the Sports Council for Wales to have their respective agencies recognised as bona fide national governing bodies for funding purposes (as is the case in Scotland, I believe).

Philip Smith

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Hi Phillip

The reality of the situation is that the various Sports Councils normally only deal with ONE governing body, which is normally a GB within the geographical area that they administer. Have you TRIED to get the multi-GB approach? We have, we tried to get it in England so that the SAA would be recognised alongside us. We were told to go away and sort it all out amongst ourselves as they only wanted to deal with one GB. It took Phil H and the then SAA chair nearly two years to come up with a scheme, that scheme itself required Sport England approval, we eventually got it sorted.

The reality of the situation is that you?re dealing with bureaucrats here and amateur sports like diving are way down on their lists of priorities, they like it nice and simple, they want to deal with one GB and leave that GB to sort out the structures under that.

In England we are the GB, we work very closely with all of the UK diving agencies and they support us in our role as GB just as we represent their interests to Sport England. In Scotland it is SSAC, we are affiliated to SSAC, we support them in their role as GB, they represent our interests and that of all of our Scottish branches. In Wales we recognise and support WASAC.

So although the ?let?s lobby for loads and loads of non Welsh GB?s? sounds like a nice idea I have a pretty good idea just how far we would get with it. The real solution is for Welsh divers to stand up and be counted as to just how much effort THEY are prepared to put in to sort this out themselves, we will give them every assistance that we can to help them do it, but we can?t do it for them.

Keith L

[Andy Wade]

:=I think that if I went to SCOTSAC's website and complained that BSAC had folded and demanded that they do something about it 'cos I couldn't get a lottery grant, I would get shouted down as a bl**dy sassenach upstart or similar.

Andy, that is not a relevant comparison and it shows that you're still missing the point. SSAC is an independent governing body (older than BSAC and the main one recognised by Sport Scotland). WASAC was not really a "governing body" as such, but a multi-agency association of clubs, including BSAC branches. Whether or not WASAC still exists, BSAC should be looking after the interests of BSAC branches in Wales as much as in England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, or overseas. BSAC is not an "English governing body" (ask the new NDO!); it is the governing body for all BSAC branches everywhere. It so happens that it is also the only national governing body for sub-aqua recognised by Sport England.

I have no problem with what you're saying Philip, but it's as relevant a comparison as I could think of at the time.
I don't disagree with any of the original posts or subsequent ones for that matter, I was disagreeing with their tone.

I agree with you that the bitter tone used initially was not guaranteed to elicit universal support, but it seems as though it was borne out of deep frustration. If WASAC cannot be resurrected, this issue needs to be resolved at a high level. My suggestion is that the chairmen of BSAC, the SAA and any other organisations who came under the WASAC umbrella jointly lobby the Sports Council for Wales to have their respective agencies recognised as bona fide national governing bodies for funding purposes (as is the case in Scotland, I believe).

I agree, the problem with using a bitter tone is that the people reading this thread have to filter through the bitter tone to get to the real issues.
I sympathise with their frustrations but it shouldn't be frustration with the readers of this forum, but WASAC and possibly even BSAC's hierarchy, although we readers have had to bear it.
I always remember WASAC as a small federation of dive clubs like NORFED for example, I've been a member of both over the years, I was extremely surprised to see that it was the GB for Wales, I wouldn't have thought that a small organisation such as that would be the GB.
Seeing that it has folded or is at least very low key at the moment, it underlines what I had thought about it.

[Philip Smith]

Hi Keith,

The reality of the situation is that the various Sports Councils normally only deal with ONE governing body, which is normally a GB within the geographical area that they administer.

This is not completely true. Several sports have more than one recognised governing body.

Have you TRIED to get the multi-GB approach? We have, we tried to get it in England so that the SAA would be recognised alongside us. We were told to go away and sort it all out amongst ourselves as they only wanted to deal with one GB.

I know that BSAC officers have worked hard at this in England. Sport England seems to have the most restrictive approach of the various sports councils.

In England we are the GB, we work very closely with all of the UK diving agencies and they support us in our role as GB just as we represent their interests to Sport England.

Understood.

In Scotland it is SSAC, we are affiliated to SSAC, we support them in their role as GB, they represent our interests and that of all of our Scottish branches.

That is not correct. BSAC (ScotFed) is recognised as a governing body by SportScotland, in addition to SSAC. To my mind, that is the model required in Wales and England. I was not aware that BSAC was affiliated to SSAC in any way.

So although the ?let?s lobby for loads and loads of non Welsh GB?s? sounds like a nice idea

Now Keith, noone said "loads and loads of non Welsh GB's". The reality is that there is no such thing as a Welsh GB for sub-aqua: most if not all of the diving clubs in Wales are affiliated to UK-wide governing bodies. Those bodies should explain that to the Sports Council for Wales.

The real solution is for Welsh divers to stand up and be counted as to just how much effort THEY are prepared to put in to sort this out themselves, we will give them every assistance that we can to help them do it, but we can?t do it for them.

I don't like the "them" and "us" distinction. They are members of our club, the British Sub-Aqua Club. They need representation. They could form a WalesFed of BSAC branches, with the support of the Region and HQ, but IIRC that was how WASAC started out in the first place.

Philip Smith

[edward haynes]

Hi Philip

:=The reality of the situation is that the various Sports Councils normally only deal with ONE governing body, which is normally a GB within the geographical area that they administer.

This is not completely true. Several sports have more than one recognised governing body.

There might have more than on GB, but the rub is the body(ies) responsible for allocating grants will only deal with one.


:=In Scotland it is SSAC, we are affiliated to SSAC, we support them in their role as GB, they represent our interests and that of all of our Scottish branches.

That is not correct. BSAC (ScotFed) is recognised as a governing body by SportScotland, in addition to SSAC. To my mind, that is the model required in Wales and England. I was not aware that BSAC was affiliated to SSAC in any way.

To get funding in Scotland SSAC have to confirm to the funding body that the branch is an affiliate. Being a member of Scotfed (which I've never heard of) could just be a nicety.

And the added complication is each funding body can operate to a different set of standards, as set by their "political" masters.

Some questions (Not for Philip):

1. Who (the individual) in the Welsh Assembly is responsible for the conduct of the Sports Council for Wales?

2. Has this individual been contacted by people who live in his/her electoral area?

Edward

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Hi Phillip

Thanks for that, don't quote me on the SSAC thing BTW, I may have got that wrong as this is not my area as you know. I suspect that you are right as you obviously know a lot more about this than me! But the point is that we work WITH other organisations outside of England and within, Edward may well also have a point in that only one GB is recognised for lottery funding, that is certainly the situation in England.

It's not a "them" and "us" situation at all, it's an "all of us" situation as we are all in the same club. But it is a matter of fact that there is nobody within Council or HQ with the knowledge, time and background of Welsh diving who can take this on. We need somebody (or a group of people) to take this on, look at all these issues and options, come up with some solutions. We'll give them all of the help that we can, but we can't do it for them. Until we get that help this problem is not going to be solved.

Keith L

[Philip Smith]

:=This is not completely true. Several sports have more than one recognised governing body.

There might have more than on GB, but the rub is the body(ies) responsible for allocating grants will only deal with one.

Sport England _recognise_ (and therefore presumably deal with) more than governing body for the following sports: Angling, Atheltics, Bowls, Boxing, Equestrian, Golf, Ice hockey, Movement and dance, Rambling, Shooting, Skiing.
[ <a href="http://www.sportengland.org/index/get_resources/resource_ul.htm#governing" >http://www.sportengland.org/index/get_resources/resource_ul.htm#governing</a>]

To get funding in Scotland SSAC have to confirm to the funding body that the branch is an affiliate. Being a member of Scotfed (which I've never heard of) could just be a nicety.

No, BSAC is a recognised governing body in Scotland according to:
[ <a href="http://www.sportscotland.org.uk/contents/partnerslinks/dirofgbs/dirofgovbodiess.htm" >http://www.sportscotland.org.uk/contents/partnerslinks/dirofgbs/dirofgovbodiess.htm</a>]
ScotFed used to be a federation of BSAC branches in Scotland. I see that it is now (similar to WASAC) a multi-agency association. Clare Peddie was the ScotFed DO at one time.
[ <a href="http://www.arcl.ed.ac.uk/scotfed/" >http://www.arcl.ed.ac.uk/scotfed/</a>]

What do you mean by an "affiliate" exactly? Are any BSAC branches in Scotland "affiliated" to the Scottish Sub-Aqua Club without actually being an SSAC branch? Have any Scottish BSAC branches had to become SSAC branches to obtain lottery funding? I have been the DO of two BSAC branches in Scotland and I have never heard of an SSAC affiliation scheme for BSAC branches. As it happens, one of the branches was both an SSAC and a BSAC branch, but that is different from a BSAC branch gaining recognition from Sport Scotland through some sort of affiliation with the SSAC. Both SSAC and BSAC are "recognised".

Philip Smith

[Marka]

:=
:=Andy
:=the point about Sport Wales and the Sports Council for Wales thing because if people are putting the time into this problem problem that they say they are surely they would by now know the names of the organisations that they have been dealing with

Indeed, and we call them 'Sport England', so it follows that it would be Sport Wales. No big deal surely?

http://www.sportengland.org/

Thanks for the link anyway, I see that WASAC isn't listed on their website as the governing body for Wales.
Have you contacted them to ask why?
Does this mean that the situation is vacant?

Andy
You have not been listening
They are not listed because they do not exist anymore
No the situation is not vacant because like you people will not accept this plain fact. WASAC has gone
Cheers
Mark

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Thanks once again Phillip

I can see what yo mean about the English side of things, most of them seem to be distinct "areas" though such as indoor/outdoor or amateur/professional. Unfortunately we're not dealing with England here, if we were it would be MUCH easier :-)

I note that in Scotland the BSAC entry is via a 'Scottish Federation' tag with a contact address in Scotand, it looks like you were right and we deal via ScotFed. But again, this isn't a Scottish issue.

Now Wales... the closest I could find was <a href="http://www.sports-council-wales.co.uk/access/links.cfm?cat_id=3&cat_title=Governing%20Bodies%20of%20Sport%20in%20W ales" >http://www.sports-council-wales.co.uk/access/links.cfm?cat_id=3&cat_title=Governing%20Bodies%20of%20Sport%20in%20W ales</a>
(errr... try it via Google if that don't work).

Of note there is that they're ALL Welsh and there's ONLY one of them for each sport, it looks to me as though most sports have a specific Welsh element/federation. We need somebody in Wales with local knowledge to look at this, which is roughy where I came in IIRC :-)

Keith L

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Andy
You have not been listening
They are not listed because they do not exist anymore
No the situation is not vacant because like you people will not accept this plain fact. WASAC has gone

With all due respect Mark you cannot categorically state that as fact, you could be making an assumption. The jury is still out on that one and our chairman is currently checking with our WASAC contacts, I'll get back to you as soon as I know for certain and I know the facts.

In the event that it has folded we look forward to supporting the team of Welsh divers and enthusiasts who will be required to build a new GB for Wales, we will support them fully as we have done with WASAC in the past.

Kind Regards

Keith L

[MarkA]

:=Andy
:=You have not been listening
:=They are not listed because they do not exist anymore
:=No the situation is not vacant because like you people will not accept this plain fact. WASAC has gone

With all due respect Mark you cannot categorically state that as fact, you could be making an assumption. The jury is still out on that one and our chairman is currently checking with our WASAC contacts, I'll get back to you as soon as I know for certain and I know the facts.

In the event that it has folded we look forward to supporting the team of Welsh divers and enthusiasts who will be required to build a new GB for Wales, we will support them fully as we have done with WASAC in the past.

Kind Regards

Keith L


Keith

OK
Cheers

Mark

[MarkA]

To quote the above

The objects for which BSAC is established are:

To promote underwater sport exploration science and related studies to promote safety in these activities and by co-operation with other organisations with related objects to provide the widest exchange of knowledge and experience therein and by setting and maintaining the highest standards to sustain recognition as the governing body for all such amateur activity.

[Andy Wade]

:=:=Andy
:=:=You have not been listening
:=:=They are not listed because they do not exist anymore
:=:=No the situation is not vacant because like you people will not accept this plain fact. WASAC has gone
:=
:=With all due respect Mark you cannot categorically state that as fact, you could be making an assumption. The jury is still out on that one and our chairman is currently checking with our WASAC contacts, I'll get back to you as soon as I know for certain and I know the facts.
:=
:=In the event that it has folded we look forward to supporting the team of Welsh divers and enthusiasts who will be required to build a new GB for Wales, we will support them fully as we have done with WASAC in the past.
:=
:=Kind Regards
:=
:=Keith L


Keith

OK
Cheers

Mark

How about an "I'm sorry Andy, maybe I'm not correct here?"

Mark, your problem is that you are so frustrated with everyone who dares to ask questions that you've forgotten basic manners.

I have heard that some of the WASAC members are operating but they are having such trouble finding support that they can't do very much for anyone at the moment.
WASAC seems to be suffering from apathy, no-one wants to take up the vacant positions, so they are in danger of folding completely.
Have you thought about offering to help them?
If you and your friends helped WASAC by taking up some of the vacant positions then maybe you could solve everyone's problems at the same time?
Just a thought.

[Marka]

:=:=:=Andy
:=:=:=You have not been listening
:=:=:=They are not listed because they do not exist anymore
:=:=:=No the situation is not vacant because like you people will not accept this plain fact. WASAC has gone
:=:=
:=:=With all due respect Mark you cannot categorically state that as fact, you could be making an assumption. The jury is still out on that one and our chairman is currently checking with our WASAC contacts, I'll get back to you as soon as I know for certain and I know the facts.
:=:=
:=:=In the event that it has folded we look forward to supporting the team of Welsh divers and enthusiasts who will be required to build a new GB for Wales, we will support them fully as we have done with WASAC in the past.
:=:=
:=:=Kind Regards
:=:=
:=:=Keith L
:=
:=
:=Keith
:=
:=OK
:=Cheers
:=
:=Mark

How about an "I'm sorry Andy, maybe I'm not correct here?"

Mark, your problem is that you are so frustrated with everyone who dares to ask questions that you've forgotten basic manners.

I have heard that some of the WASAC members are operating but they are having such trouble finding support that they can't do very much for anyone at the moment.
WASAC seems to be suffering from apathy, no-one wants to take up the vacant positions, so they are in danger of folding completely.
Have you thought about offering to help them?
If you and your friends helped WASAC by taking up some of the vacant positions then maybe you could solve everyone's problems at the same time?
Just a thought.

You just don't get it do you
There is no WASAC
There are more loch ness monsters than member clubs of WASAC
Mulder and Scully failed to find them
You may of heard that Wasac are trying to help but I have also heard that the moon is made of Cheese.
Where did you hear this from I wonder
Of Course we have offered to help and at the last WASAC meeting ever held in April 2003 the commitee asked if one of the members of our club would be willing to be co-opted on to the commitee and help deal with the Sports Council of Wales and the Lottery situation.
We of course agreed but since then WASAC have gone by the wayside. I don't know if this was minuted though as no minutes have ever been published or any subsequent meetings taken place. As far as taking up vacant positions are concerned. I will only say this once more and hope it sinks in this time.
There are no Vacant positions because there is no WASAC

Andy
I don't meen to be offensive but your attitude is that we have just sat on our [REMOVED : KL] and let this situation arise is so far from the truth that we can not be anything else other than insulted.
Have a nice day
Mark

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Guys, guys...

This is developing into some kind of ?oh yes he did, oh no he didn?t? pantomime. OK, we?re not absolutely sure about WASAC, but I?m working on it and will have an answer soon I hope. But does that matter? The key ingredient is that people are willing to help out, be that with WASAC or A.N.Other. Get those people together, the BSAC will fully support them and do everything that it can to help, we get it sorted.

That?s always been the case, that?s how the club is supposed to work, now can we please stop throwing things at each other at least until ?

a) We know what it is that needs doing
b) We?ve established a Welsh ?working group? to do it

So come on, truce? Let?s work towards getting it sorted.

Keith L

[edward haynes]

Keith

Here is a new slant.

The United Kingdom Sports Council. Was allocated 9.2 per cent of Lottery Funds on 1 July 1999. At the same time the monies to the English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland sports councils was reduced.

Extract:
***********
The National Lottery etc. Act 1993 (Amendment of Section 23) Order 1999

(6) After paragraph (d) there shall be inserted-
" and

(e) as to 9.2 per cent., for distribution by the United Kingdom Sports Council.".

**************

The question that comes to mind is "BSAC registered as the GB with this Lottery Fund distributor"?

Edward

[Philip Smith]

Now Wales... the closest I could find was <a href="http://www.sports-council-wales.co.uk/access/links.cfm?cat_id=3&cat_title=Governing%20Bodies%20of%20Sport%20in%20W ales" >http://www.sports-council-wales.co.uk/access/links.cfm?cat_id=3&cat_title=Governing%20Bodies%20of%20Sport%20in%20W ales</a>
(errr... try it via Google if that don't work).

Of note there is that they're ALL Welsh and there's ONLY one of them for each sport, it looks to me as though most sports have a specific Welsh element/federation.

Yes, that seems to be mostly the case. Some are Welsh branches of British organisations, e.g. Surf Life Saving Association of Wales (SLSA-UK) and Welsh Judo Association (BJA). The following pamphlet lists several out-and-out British governing bodies:
<a href="http://www.sports-council-wales.co.uk/images_client/ACFE732.pdf" >http://www.sports-council-wales.co.uk/images_client/ACFE732.pdf</a>
But yes, there is an obvious preference for Welsh-named GBs.

We need somebody in Wales with local knowledge to look at this, which is roughy where I came in IIRC :-)

Is it within the remit of the Regional Coach? Nevertheless, if WASAC cannot be resuscitated, approaches to the Sports Council may be facilitated by some gravitas from (the British!) HQs of the two main de facto GBs.

Anyway, just the view of an innocent bystander,
Philip Smith

[Philip Smith]

The United Kingdom Sports Council. Was allocated 9.2 per cent of Lottery Funds on 1 July 1999. At the same time the monies to the English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland sports councils was reduced.

Ed, the UK Sports Council is mainly responsible for international competitive sport and they distribute their 9.2% of the Lottery Sports Fund through the "World Class Performance" and "World Class Events" programmes. While sub-aqua is one of their "partner sports", I doubt very much whether BSAC branches would be eligible for either of these elite funding schemes.

Philip

[markA]

Guys, guys...

This is developing into some kind of ?oh yes he did, oh no he didn?t? pantomime. OK, we?re not absolutely sure about WASAC, but I?m working on it and will have an answer soon I hope. But does that matter? The key ingredient is that people are willing to help out, be that with WASAC or A.N.Other. Get those people together, the BSAC will fully support them and do everything that it can to help, we get it sorted.

That?s always been the case, that?s how the club is supposed to work, now can we please stop throwing things at each other at least until ?

a) We know what it is that needs doing
b) We?ve established a Welsh ?working group? to do it

So come on, truce? Let?s work towards getting it sorted.

Keith L

Yes
Please

Mark

[Ken Twat]

To quote the above

The objects for which BSAC is established are:

To promote underwater sport exploration science and related studies to promote safety in these activities and by co-operation with other organisations with related objects to provide the widest exchange of knowledge and experience therein and by setting and maintaining the highest standards to sustain recognition as the governing body for all such amateur activity.

Looks like it gone all quiet on this subject Mark

Ken

[MarkA]

:=To quote the above
:=
:=The objects for which BSAC is established are:
:=
:=To promote underwater sport exploration science and related studies to promote safety in these activities and by co-operation with other organisations with related objects to provide the widest exchange of knowledge and experience therein and by setting and maintaining the highest standards to sustain recognition as the governing body for all such amateur activity.

Looks like it gone all quiet on this subject Mark

Ken

Nothing new there then Ken