AGM

[neil carter]

Sorry Chaps, couldn't make it to the AGM. Any reports upcoming, or who our new Council Members are. Nothing on the News Page yet, so I thought I'd just ask.

Neil Carter

ISIS Dvers

[bsachq]

Dear Neil

We are currently updating the website to include the new members of Council and the newly appointed NDO. There we will be full coverage in the next issue of Dive which is out in a about 3 weeks. We are also posting a short news press release onto the news section today. All presentations from the AGM are available electronically and I will ensure that these are emailed to you. If anyone else who reads this posting wishes to have their own copies, please do not hesitate to email me and I will send them out.

If you have any further queries on the AGM then please email me directly on <a href="mailto:maryt@bsac.com">maryt@bsac.com</a> and I will respond to you

Many thanks
Mary Tetley
BSAC Operations Manager

[Khaled Alwassia]

Dear Neil

We are currently updating the website to include the new members of Council and the newly appointed NDO. There we will be full coverage in the next issue of Dive which is out in a about 3 weeks. We are also posting a short news press release onto the news section today. All presentations from the AGM are available electronically and I will ensure that these are emailed to you. If anyone else who reads this posting wishes to have their own copies, please do not hesitate to email me and I will send them out.

If you have any further queries on the AGM then please email me directly on <a href="mailto:maryt@bsac.com">maryt@bsac.com</a> and I will respond to you

Many thanks
Mary Tetley
BSAC Operations Manager

Dear Mary,
Please advise me how BSAC HQ will avoid that international members are bared from voting at the next AGM.
I have raised the issue on the forum and as you can see got some like minded replies. As well i can confirm now that i am not the only member in Saudi Arabia which did get the ballot late. One of our Advanced Instructors got his on May 12.
Please find below once again my comments on the reply and explanations given by BSAC which are rather disapointing:

And i quote:

"Dear Sandra,
thank you very much for going through the trouble of checking my membership details.
On the risk of sounding obnoxious I would like to note that my delivery method was not questioned.
What was questioned was the time frame with which BSAC has send out the Ballots.

Even if everything would have went right with my mail delivery than as you rightly noted I should have received the Ballot at the end of April. Well what good would that be if I have to send the Ballot back to the UK by mail (Fax, e-mail... are not acceptable to BSAC), mailing the ballot back to the UK takes about 2-3 weeks again my vote would not reach BSAC by May 10 - 10.00 o'clock .

Considering the above you will surly agree that a more efficient international mail system would have made little difference.

Your suggestion that I should pay ?35 more to ensure that I can vote in future proceedings is rather disturbing.
I was not able to find any passage in the BSAC Constitution which said that international members have to pay extra to ensure their voting rights in BSAC Elections or general decision making process.

To avoid the impression that BSAC HQ considers the needs of overseas members to a lesser extend than UK members may i suggest that BSAC sends out future ballots with more lead time. Having used the March or even February issue to send out the Ballot would have more than avoided the situation.

Respectfully yours

Khaled Alwassia

-----Original Message-----
From: Reynolds Sandra [mailto:<a href="mailto:SandraR@BSAC.com">SandraR@BSAC.com</a>]
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 5:21 PM
To: <a href="mailto:'kalwassia@hha.com.sa">'kalwassia@hha.com.sa</a>'
Cc: Tetley Mary
Subject: Ballot Form for BSAC Council 2004/2005


Dear Khaled

Many thanks for your email of 12 May advising us that you did not receive your ballot papers in time for the voting process of BSAC Council.

I have checked your membership details and I note that you receive correspondence from the BSAC, including your Dive magazine, by surface mail.
This can take 6 weeks to arrive with you. Assuming this you should have received your magazine with the necessary ballot papers around the end of
April. I must apologise that you did not receive them earlier than this and we will ensure this will be rectified in any future important mailings.

If you wish to ensure you receive your magazine within approx one week, you could pay an extra ?35 to cover the cost of sending the magazine airmail for the 12 month duration of your annual subscription.

Having said all of the above, I cannot guarantee any hold up in the delivery of your mail with any overseas postal systems.

Sandra Reynolds
Event Organiser
Tel: 0151 350 6221"

[Bill Bird]

Khaled,

I'm puzzled! You had an indication to contact Mary directly - her direct Email address is on this response, so I cannot understand why you've posted it on the forum instead? You are perfectly right to raise this issue, but then appear to hope that somebody at HQ will read your query on the forum. Why not edit and delete the forum entry and send this direct to Mary using the Email address quoted?

Cheers.


Bill

:=Dear Neil
:=
:=We are currently updating the website to include the new members of Council and the newly appointed NDO. There we will be full coverage in the next issue of Dive which is out in a about 3 weeks. We are also posting a short news press release onto the news section today. All presentations from the AGM are available electronically and I will ensure that these are emailed to you. If anyone else who reads this posting wishes to have their own copies, please do not hesitate to email me and I will send them out.
:=
:=If you have any further queries on the AGM then please email me directly on <a href="mailto:maryt@bsac.com">maryt@bsac.com</a> and I will respond to you
:=
:=Many thanks
:=Mary Tetley
:=BSAC Operations Manager

Dear Mary,
Please advise me how BSAC HQ will avoid that international members are bared from voting at the next AGM.
I have raised the issue on the forum and as you can see got some like minded replies. As well i can confirm now that i am not the only member in Saudi Arabia which did get the ballot late. One of our Advanced Instructors got his on May 12.
Please find below once again my comments on the reply and explanations given by BSAC which are rather disapointing:

And i quote:

"Dear Sandra,
thank you very much for going through the trouble of checking my membership details.
On the risk of sounding obnoxious I would like to note that my delivery method was not questioned.
What was questioned was the time frame with which BSAC has send out the Ballots.

Even if everything would have went right with my mail delivery than as you rightly noted I should have received the Ballot at the end of April. Well what good would that be if I have to send the Ballot back to the UK by mail (Fax, e-mail... are not acceptable to BSAC), mailing the ballot back to the UK takes about 2-3 weeks again my vote would not reach BSAC by May 10 - 10.00 o'clock .

Considering the above you will surly agree that a more efficient international mail system would have made little difference.

Your suggestion that I should pay ?35 more to ensure that I can vote in future proceedings is rather disturbing.
I was not able to find any passage in the BSAC Constitution which said that international members have to pay extra to ensure their voting rights in BSAC Elections or general decision making process.

To avoid the impression that BSAC HQ considers the needs of overseas members to a lesser extend than UK members may i suggest that BSAC sends out future ballots with more lead time. Having used the March or even February issue to send out the Ballot would have more than avoided the situation.

Respectfully yours

Khaled Alwassia

-----Original Message-----
From: Reynolds Sandra [mailto:<a href="mailto:SandraR@BSAC.com">SandraR@BSAC.com</a>]
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 5:21 PM
To: <a href="mailto:'kalwassia@hha.com.sa">'kalwassia@hha.com.sa</a>'
Cc: Tetley Mary
Subject: Ballot Form for BSAC Council 2004/2005


Dear Khaled

Many thanks for your email of 12 May advising us that you did not receive your ballot papers in time for the voting process of BSAC Council.

I have checked your membership details and I note that you receive correspondence from the BSAC, including your Dive magazine, by surface mail.
This can take 6 weeks to arrive with you. Assuming this you should have received your magazine with the necessary ballot papers around the end of
April. I must apologise that you did not receive them earlier than this and we will ensure this will be rectified in any future important mailings.

If you wish to ensure you receive your magazine within approx one week, you could pay an extra ?35 to cover the cost of sending the magazine airmail for the 12 month duration of your annual subscription.

Having said all of the above, I cannot guarantee any hold up in the delivery of your mail with any overseas postal systems.

Sandra Reynolds
Event Organiser
Tel: 0151 350 6221"

[Alison Boler]

Well, Bill, I imagine that Khaled, quite rightly, feels that this is an issue that he would like to make public. Frankly, it isn't fair or right that overseas members are disadvantaged in the voting by receiving their ballots in this way. And it's not a new issue - this has been the case for a while, ever since the only method of receipt was via the magazine. How can we charge someone a fee to be a Full Member - which confers voting rights - and then not ensure they have the means to vote?
This - amongst other things - is something that we should ponder. We bemoan the loss of members year on year. We bemoan the loss of overseas branches and schools year on year. Or do we? Has Little Englandom now overtaken the BSAC? Come on. If we're serious about having members that don't reside on our sceptered isle, then we need to give them the same benefits as everyone else. Or we need to be honest, and offer them a cut down membership commensurate with the level of support we are prepared to give them.

We have a very good I.T. team within the BSAC. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to devise a method that would allow overseas - or even UK members - to vote electronically. If we want them to... If we think it is important.

BTW: This is not in ANY WAY a criticism of HQ staff who labour long and hard to implement our policies.

Frankly, if I didn't get my voting form until just before the AGM or worse, after, I would kick up a hell of a stink and not just on the website. Wouldn't you????

So, what are we going to do about it? Council?

Alison

[Dave]

We have a very good I.T. team within the BSAC. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to devise a method that would allow overseas - or even UK members - to vote electronically. If we want them to... If we think it is important.

I agree with you. It could not be difficult, imo, to provide the voting forms et al on the website to download and print out, surely. At least that way, those of us overseas would have access to vote rather than be disenfranchised


Dave

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

I agree with you. It could not be difficult, imo, to provide the voting forms et al on the website to download and print out, surely. At least that way, those of us overseas would have access to vote rather than be disenfranchised

This is not actually a decision for the BSAC! All of our elections are run on our behalf by the Electoral Reform Services as a completely independant third party, they tell us what the results are, we do not collate or count them. One fundamental problem with electronic voting and electronic forms is verification and the control of the distribution of the balot papers.

I know that HQ are very aware of this issue, the problems with the ballot papers coincided with some well reported problems with The Post Office. There is a major Council election next year, we'll look at it and see if we can improve things.

Thank you all for voting, it =IS= important to us to get backing from the members for what we are trying to do for you. The more people that vote the better, we'll try and sort things out before the main Council elections.

Regards

Keith L

[Bill Bird]

Frankly, if I didn't get my voting form until just before the AGM or worse, after, I would kick up a hell of a stink and not just on the website. Wouldn't you????

So, what are we going to do about it? Council?

Alison



Yes I'd complain. Immediately air in the pages of the Forum? No. Especially if asked - quite nicely from what I've seen - to contact an individual to follow this up. I'm a great believer in exhausting channels first and using the forum to highlight problems as a last resort.

However, I do think that Khaled's got a point, but as you'll know, from being on Council yourself, the answer's not always going to be simple.

Regards.


Bill

[Khaled Alwassia]

Hello All,
Just got back from a long dive weekend so please appoligise the late reply.
I beleave as well that channels shall be used where they are available and responsive in a reasonable manner.

I have send the emails suggested to Mary and the chairman, vice-chairman, hon.sec. and <a href="mailto:overseas@bsac.com">overseas@bsac.com</a>. and our magazine.
Well, no reply up to now, and yes i know it is only a few day since i send the email.

Questioning my and many others membership and way of magazine delivery is not a reasonable reply. By the way when i joint i was not told that i must get the magazine by air delivery if i want to participate in the votes. Did our branch secretary fergot to show me that relevant documentation?

Mr. Lawrence's reply unfortuneately falls short as it fits more a politician than a diver concerned about diving & BSAC.

I did not known that this ballot subject is not an issue which just resurfaced, if i had than i would have contacted BSAC to send me the ballot seperately. Would that have been possible, would that have been seen as taking the membership and my voteing to seriouly?
YES, I feel strongly about every BSAC member and especially us the Non UK divers using the right to infulence the desissions made by the CLUB by participating in all and every elections & votes. The first step to this is making sure that everyone can vote without taking preventive steps or being asked to pay additional fees.
I and other i have spoken to would appreciate a revision of how the way ballots and votes are handeled and processed.

The independent assistance is surely not cheap and a development on the webpage would cost just a fraction of that only once.

One the same line of thought could someone let me know how many nad what percentage of BSAC Divers are Non UK Residents.
Knowing the figures i may be confinced that i belong to a neclectable part of the membership.
But if i listen to the long time branch members up to 20 % of BSAC members have at one time been living out of the UK.
Untill the concil make the numbers public i guess i will never know (maybe i just did not find them on the website)

Wishing you all safe and exciting diving.

Khaled

[Alison Boler]

Bill,


I agree - often problems are not easy to solve, but in this case, it is. If e-voting is not possible via the ERS, then the BSAC should mail out the overseas voting forms early enough so that they can be received - and returned!! - and not rely on the magazine low rate postage mailing. They could be mailed en masse to the Branch postal address which would probably save postage over individual posting rates.

This is not a difficult problem to solve. The BSAC use a timeline in the run up to any big event like this - I know, because I used to operate it. In this case, the timeline is clearly inadequate. The mailing out of the ballot forms to overseas members needs to be seperated from the UK mailout and moved earlier in the timeline. This may mean printing the ballot papers earlier - it shouldn't be a problem. Well, frankly, it can't be a problem.

The BSAC have got a big election coming up next year. Council shouldn't be TRYING to solve this problem. They should be giving it enough priority in order to ENSURE they have solved it. Otherwise, they are not taking it seriously enough.

When the government run a general election, when a company runs an AGM, they have to ensure that they notify their members within a reasonable time in order that they can act. That's Company law (I think).

Whatever the legalities, we either want members from regions outside the UK or we don't - we cannot pay mere lip service to this. If we do, then we have to offer them credible services. If we take their money to become Full Members, they are entitled to receive ALL the benefits of Full Membership and that includes seeing their vote hit the register. If we don't then we should be honest about it.

If we ran an election and it was found that due to postal error all members in Scotland (for instance) hadn't received their voting form, I suspect we would rerun the election. What's the difference here, other than the fact that the voices are harder to hear across the miles and it's less likely that crowds of angry hairy divers are going to blockade Ellesmere Port in protest?

I'm not suggesting that the election should be rerun BTW, but if I lived overseas and this happens again next year, I would be or I'd be taking my subscription somewhere else.

Allie

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Hi All

For those with short memories I will remind you that Allie was the Honorary Secretary of the BSAC for several years, as such she has actually ?been there, done that? and her points do merit very serious consideration. I was not aware of this issue until it was raised on the forums, I don?t think anybody else on Council was aware of it either. I know that HQ will have picked up this discussion (Mary has already posted) and will have flagged up this problem.

[Thinking aloud?]

I think that this is something that we should be looking at, with the major Council election coming up we certainly don?t want a similar situation happening again. I am not sure if there are any known and trusted third party agents like ERS who have e-voting facilities, ERS may even offer such a service (I don?t know), if anybody has knowledge or experience of elections in bodies similar to the BSAC then I?m sure HQ would be interested.

I like the concept of e-voting, I think that it is something that we should investigate, the problems are numerous and it is not as secure as traditional ?X marks the spot? voting but we may have to accept that. I would hope that with the simplicity of e-voting we could get more people to participate!

An e-voting voting system that I am familiar with has been in operation for many years to decide Internet UseNet issues within the UK, see <a href="http://www.ukvoting.org.uk/" >http://www.ukvoting.org.uk/</a>. Although not immediately suitable for electing the Council of the BSAC some of the elements used might work. It works like this ?

1. People request a ballot form by email, an individually identified ballot form is returned by email.
2. The ballot form is completed and returned.
3. Only valid (individual) ballots from known email addresses are counted.

This gets around the problem of ?spare? ballot forms floating around, it is the accessibility to ballot forms that is one of the key elements of fair and valid elections. That does however have the disadvantage of identifying the voter, that is why we use the ERS, we (BSAC) have no idea who has voted for whom.

One fundamental problem within the BSAC is identifying your members, that is why we mail out ballot forms with Dive, we KNOW that goes to our members. With any form of electronic voting you have this problem of knowing who is receiving the email. There are a couple of ways around this that I can think of, if a member pre-registered an email address with HQ for the purposes of e-voting then we could supply a third party with those email addresses?

Another method is ?on demand? verification and ballot distribution. Here I must hold my hand up and say ?my fault, we should have that by now? ? I have a development version of such a system but pressure of work has prevented me from completing it and activating it at HQ. Even if we had such a system we would still need a third party vote taker, to keep things open and transparent I wouldn?t want us counting the votes ourselves. This however is possible by using BSAC HQ as an interim, as with the first idea of pre-registered email addresses. This could work as follows ?

1. We electronically verify your membership, we could add an ?out-of-band? additional verification such as manual/post/telephone if required.
2. Once we know you, and your email address, we would accept ballot requests from you.
3. On requesting a ballot the BSAC would act on your behalf and relay that request to a third party.
4. The third party would then contact you directly (just like UKVoting do) and handle the distribution, return and counting of ballots.

So what we would have is the BSAC saying ?this is a member, can you process a ballot for them please?, then you?re into standard e-voting techniques.

As I?ve said, I?m thinking aloud on this one, I?m just raising the issues for discussion. I can?t see any immediate solution to this, we probably wont have the time to set up an e-voting system for the next elections, but is this something that Council should be looking at for the future?

I will pursue the current problems, I would like to try and make sure that they don?t happen again, and for the future maybe we should look at alternative systems?

Kind Regards

Keith L

[edward haynes]

Just thinking aloud.

Before we (BSAC) go off and set up e-voting, shouldn't either the Communications or Membership Group/Team consider the options to meet the requirements for elections; and report the preferred option back to Council.

Then, if e-voting is the preferred option the IT Group/Team can then get on and deliver.

Just thinking

Edward

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Just thinking aloud.

Before we (BSAC) go off and set up e-voting, shouldn't either the Communications or Membership Group/Team consider the options to meet the requirements for elections; and report the preferred option back to Council.

I'm not even sure where it "fits" within the teams Edward :-) This is MT/HQ territory, I don't think it's Comms, it's not really MS... That's why I'm just thinking aloud, I'm just bouncing ideas around, if a few land we'll find somewhere for them.

K

[Alison Boler]

Keith,

HQ just administer the system on behalf of Council - they haven't devised it and are not responsible for its design. The Honorary Secretary is responsible for the organisation of the AGM and is directly responsible therefore for the conduct and procedure of the election.

It might help if I told you what used to happen... I hesitate because it is absolutely insufferable when people do this and kind of hark back to some "golden time" which never existed. I'm not doing that, I promise - just it might shed some light which you can use to adapt things into the 21C!

Firstly, in the 90s we had a LOT of overseas members and branches. Well over 20% of members lived outside of the UK, we had a lot more schools and branches and we had fully set up coaching schemes operating around the world, particularly throughout the Middle East. It was just like the UK, they had courses and everything. So, sizeable chunk of the BSAC - we had to make sure they got their voting forms, and we did. There were differences, some of which were important.
1. We didn't use the magazine to distribute, we mailed them seperately. Either individually but also en masse to branches, coaches, schools to distribute. Some branches are in very remote areas with hundreds if not thousands of miles between them and the next. In some places the mail could take months.
2. We held the AGM in JUNE not May. Now, I suspect that when the timeline was adjusted to bring back the closing date a month for a May AGM, it may be that the printing and mailing out dates were not similarly adjusted. That month would be crucial.
3. We allowed the forms to be faxed back. Now this was before the ERS. I don't know if they allow a faxed form, can't really see why - the membership number still has to be validated via the HQ system, they still have to be signed, the forms could still be individually numbered. It would save a lot of time.
And that's without reverting to email and modern day I.T. which is definitely the answer but may take longer to implement.
I'm not BTW saying that what we used to do was good or should be copied - it was possibly more open to abuse, but some of the ideas could be adapted. Certainly the timeline is very important.
The ERS must be experienced in these matters. If I were the Hon Sec (and thank heavens I'm not!!!) I would ring them up and ask for their advice - they run elections for a living after all, none of us do.
BTW: Think hard before you just move the mailing date for Everyone back a month. I think possibly the reason it remained where it was (unfortunately forgetting the overseas members) is that it is believed that if UK members get the form too long before the voting period, they will lose the form and not vote, reducing the low voting turnout even more. There is merit in this, particularly when it is is already now distributed as a loose sheet within the magazine. Many people simply view anything loose in the magazine as junk and tip it straight into the bin.

Medium term, voting forms should come to everyone electronically if possible. Quite apart from the major cost and time benefits I'm convinced it would result in a higher vote. Most people find answering an email, much more compulsive than actually having to get out there and post a letter.

Best wishes

Allie

[Alan Taylor]

Keith,

HQ just administer the system on behalf of Council - they haven't devised it and are not responsible for its design. The Honorary Secretary is responsible for the organisation of the AGM and is directly responsible therefore for the conduct and procedure of the election.

It might help if I told you what used to happen... I hesitate because it is absolutely insufferable when people do this and kind of hark back to some "golden time" which never existed. I'm not doing that, I promise - just it might shed some light which you can use to adapt things into the 21C!

Firstly, in the 90s we had a LOT of overseas members and branches. Well over 20% of members lived outside of the UK, we had a lot more schools and branches and we had fully set up coaching schemes operating around the world, particularly throughout the Middle East. It was just like the UK, they had courses and everything. So, sizeable chunk of the BSAC - we had to make sure they got their voting forms, and we did. There were differences, some of which were important.
1. We didn't use the magazine to distribute, we mailed them seperately. Either individually but also en masse to branches, coaches, schools to distribute. Some branches are in very remote areas with hundreds if not thousands of miles between them and the next. In some places the mail could take months.
2. We held the AGM in JUNE not May. Now, I suspect that when the timeline was adjusted to bring back the closing date a month for a May AGM, it may be that the printing and mailing out dates were not similarly adjusted. That month would be crucial.
3. We allowed the forms to be faxed back. Now this was before the ERS. I don't know if they allow a faxed form, can't really see why - the membership number still has to be validated via the HQ system, they still have to be signed, the forms could still be individually numbered. It would save a lot of time.
And that's without reverting to email and modern day I.T. which is definitely the answer but may take longer to implement.
I'm not BTW saying that what we used to do was good or should be copied - it was possibly more open to abuse, but some of the ideas could be adapted. Certainly the timeline is very important.
The ERS must be experienced in these matters. If I were the Hon Sec (and thank heavens I'm not!!!) I would ring them up and ask for their advice - they run elections for a living after all, none of us do.
BTW: Think hard before you just move the mailing date for Everyone back a month. I think possibly the reason it remained where it was (unfortunately forgetting the overseas members) is that it is believed that if UK members get the form too long before the voting period, they will lose the form and not vote, reducing the low voting turnout even more. There is merit in this, particularly when it is is already now distributed as a loose sheet within the magazine. Many people simply view anything loose in the magazine as junk and tip it straight into the bin.

Medium term, voting forms should come to everyone electronically if possible. Quite apart from the major cost and time benefits I'm convinced it would result in a higher vote. Most people find answering an email, much more compulsive than actually having to get out there and post a letter.

Best wishes

Allie

This short sighted old duffer may have missed it in the news somewhere, but how many actually bothered to vote at all this time.

Keep on Divin'
Alan

[Mike Halligan]

More thinking aloud, and (thank Council) thinking IS allowed.

I'm sure my union uses ERS for its ballots, yet I routinely vote on-line guided by ballot papers sent out with an election-specific username and password for a secure site. Perhaps ERS would if approached inform Council what (costed) alternatives they offer as a provider of ballot services.

If Keith's can-do approach on these forums would kindly convey this thought to HQ's can-do reception and there find the proper authority, then I'm sure we can get this sorted before the next round.

Mike

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

This short sighted old duffer may have missed it in the news somewhere, but how many actually bothered to vote at all this time.

The answer is 1260 returned papers with 32 blank/spoilt returns, therefore 1228 valid votes were cast. That's just over 3% of the membership.

K

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Thanks for all of the comments.

Although the Hon Sec is ultimately responsible for elections HQ are much, much more than a ?do that? resource. We all work very much as a team with HQ taking a proactive as well as a reactive role, if HQ (or anyone for that matter) can find a better way of doing things then Council tends to agree with them and do it!

I?m not as familiar with the overall process as you Allie but I can see what you mean by timelines. We moved the AGM back into May by popular demand, people didn?t like it at the height of summer/diving season. We?re limited on when due to the accounts, which are of course determined by the end of the financial year. The timelines have been squeezed of late, that?s because we try to get the AGM early and Finance need the time to produce the final accounts for distribution and need time for that, there is also the minimum notice period for the AGM as required by the M&AofA. As such we do tend to run it tight. Pulling all the AGM mail-outs back a month just isn?t possible, the accounts wouldn?t be ready.

One main reason for distribution with Dive is one of cost, we have the facility to include member information along with Dive so we use it, the cost of a separate mail-out to all members is quite high as you know ? considering the attendance at the AGM and the voting I could see it hitting several quid per vote returned! That?s money best kept in the club in my personal opinion.

Mike?s comments on the ERS are welcome, although you?ve still got the problem of sending out the secure info telling you how to access the voting system. Certainly worth a call though, I?m sure HQ will pick that one up. We?re all very much ?can do? BTW, the problems we?re having are of logistics rather than any unwillingness to change things ? it?s just a case of investigating the possibilities and finding a better way to do it.

As I?ve said I?m very much ?thinking aloud? on this, the entire process is nothing to do with me and I?ve never been personally involved in it, so don?t take what I may say as definitive as I may not know what I?m talking about ;-) But the constructive comments and ideas coming forward are very welcome, I hope that we can improve things for the next time around.

Regards

Keith L

[David Walker]

Mike?s comments on the ERS are welcome, although you?ve still got the problem of sending out the secure info telling you how to access the voting system.

Well if its currently based on the info you fill in on the annual membership form, then within a year you could get any new information from all members, such as e-mail addresses or whatever. Sure something could be easily added to the bottom of the applications to give preference for voting method, either post or e-mail based?
But even if you just send out a password or something to everyone, since with the current system sends the ballot to their address, then its no more risky to send a password or whatever to the address. Obviously someone in the same house could steal their password if they really wanted to, but as its not considered a problem by banks who send credit cards and pin codes out, I don't think a password to a voting system should be worried about too much.

David

[Khaled Alwassia]

:=This short sighted old duffer may have missed it in the news somewhere, but how many actually bothered to vote at all this time.

The answer is 1260 returned papers with 32 blank/spoilt returns, therefore 1228 valid votes were cast. That's just over 3% of the membership.

K

Dear All,
I am not sure about UK laws about club elections but in any business you would not be able to base your decission / elections results on such low voter count.

Knowing now that at one point oversea membership exceeded 20% i wonder what happened? Did the feel lke me leafed out of the family, listening to the old hounds in our branch it very much looks like that.
Like others which replied i am not an election or IT expert but it very well looks like BSAC has a serious problem. If only 3% of membership voted than that could meen serveral things:
1. Members are not interested in what is voted for, they way the issues where explained and actually worded I had difficulties to understand if i am against or for it.
2. Members are disillusioned with the process as the concil members are not known to all (i mean what they stand for - not what kind of beer they drink, especially outside the UK) the personel statements send out with the ballot where very good but did not provide a qualified bases on which i could base my vote on. The coucils hard work (i guess it is) is only reported on very rare occations. WHY WHY WHY???????? lets use a bit of marketing to make this people more visible and let members idendify with them and their point of views, ideas and plans for the future. If people know they get interested and care than there is a better chance theat they vote.
3. Overseas members, and hear i have been talking to our local lads, have the impression that their vote does not matter. Especially as their problems are seldon addressed it does not matter who is elected or what is decided.
4. UK clubs have difficulties to keep up membership. And that with all the support of the coaching scheme and HQ right by their side. How do you think we do a 1000 miles away,
not to mention the present political climate in the Middle East.
And do not tell me there are no new divers as PADI & DAN are doing extremely well.
5. The voteing process may not be the best suitable to ensure that memebers vote, a survey on the webpage and magazine could bring light to that. I agree that a final solution may take a lot of time & money but BSAC MUST ensure that voting participation is substantional higger for the next vote. If one way of voting is not sufficient than maybe a combination of 2 or 3 ways should be considered.

Having said the above i an happy that Mr. Lawrence has taken the issue to hearth and wants to get the ball rolling ensureing improvements. That is all one can ask for.

Many Thanks to you all taking the time to support me and other oversea divers in this important issue.

Khaled Alwassia

[Khaled Alwassia]

:=Mike?s comments on the ERS are welcome, although you?ve still got the problem of sending out the secure info telling you how to access the voting system.

Well if its currently based on the info you fill in on the annual membership form, then within a year you could get any new information from all members, such as e-mail addresses or whatever. Sure something could be easily added to the bottom of the applications to give preference for voting method, either post or e-mail based?
But even if you just send out a password or something to everyone, since with the current system sends the ballot to their address, then its no more risky to send a password or whatever to the address. Obviously someone in the same house could steal their password if they really wanted to, but as its not considered a problem by banks who send credit cards and pin codes out, I don't think a password to a voting system should be worried about too much.

David

Hello
I fully agree with David, As certain US Dive Organisation has a secure member area for which you need to enter Membernumber, birthday and correct spelled name, only than you can enter "No Name" Professional Member Data.
If we advertise details in the magazin or send the info with the renewed membercard than voting registing can be done in a similar way. That voting agency must know all about that but would they want to set it up for BSAC. HMMMM they would not get any fees anyloger.
On the other hand renewing the membership should be done online anyway like the other Dive organisation (No Name mentioned)

Regs.

Khaled

[Mike Halligan]

If we advertise details in the magazin or send the info with the renewed membercard than voting registing can be done in a similar way. That voting agency must know all about that but would they want to set it up for BSAC. HMMMM they would not get any fees anyloger.
Just to clarify, my experience of ERS elsewhere (trade union) comprises the receipt by Royal Mail to my home address of the full postal voting pack. However the actual ballot paper is reproduced in a secure website, operated by ERS. Access to the website for voting purposes is through a combination of username and password dedicated to THAT specific election event and constituency, not to me, my union or the sub-section of the union forming the constituency. I have no doubt that ERS charge the union for this, probably at a rate similar to that charged for the ballot paper and return-paid envelope I would otherwise use.

On the other hand renewing the membership should be done online anyway like the other Dive organisation (No Name mentioned)
Been there, looked at that, got several T shirts and brain-ache. It is not so easy as it seems in a distributed organisation where pence spent at the centre are subject to more scrutiny than hundreds of pounds spent in Branch. (There, Keith, said it for you.)

Regards,

Mike

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Hi Khaled

I am not sure about UK laws about club elections but in any business you would not be able to base your decission / elections results on such low voter count.

There is nothing in the A of A about turnout, all of our elections are on a simple first-past-the-post system. We cannot force people to vote, we would be delighted if more people did vote, but the only thing that we have to go on is those who do vote.

Knowing now that at one point oversea membership exceeded 20% i wonder what happened? Did the feel lke me leafed out of the family, listening to the old hounds in our branch it very much looks like that.

I don?t know offhand what the current figures are, I?d have to dig back in my files for the last time I calculated it. There is no one reason for membership decline either overseas or within the UK, the reasons are many, lifestyle changes and modern society being the main ones. We do a comprehensive lapsed members mail-out all of the time, we?re always looking at the figures, the ?fed up with branch/BSAC? category is always very low, less than 10% if I recall correctly.

Like others which replied i am not an election or IT expert but it very well looks like BSAC has a serious problem. If only 3% of membership voted than that could meen serveral things:

I do not accept at all that the BSAC has any ?serious problems? with this. Council, HQ, the regions and the club work very well despite the low turnout, simply increasing the turnout would not in itself solve any problems at all!

1. Members are not interested in what is voted for, they way the issues where explained and actually worded I had difficulties to understand if i am against or for it.

I disagree. On these forums, by private email and when I visit branches in person (I visit several each year) I find numerous people who are interested in what happens. They should be, it affects them and their clubs. No, the main problem is voter apathy, a problem we share with most western societies where the turnout at all kinds of elections is falling. If apathy stood as a candidate it would win by a landslide :-(

2. Members are disillusioned with the process as the concil members are not known to all (i mean what they stand for - not what kind of beer they drink, especially outside the UK) the personel statements send out with the ballot where very good but did not provide a qualified bases on which i could base my vote on. The coucils hard work (i guess it is) is only reported on very rare occations. WHY WHY WHY???????? lets use a bit of marketing to make this people more visible and let members idendify with them and their point of views, ideas and plans for the future. If people know they get interested and care than there is a better chance theat they vote.

I disagree that members are disillusioned, but I couldn?t agree more about visibility and information! We have always been rubbish at communication historically, we have been improving but it?s a slow and painful process. We?ve got a brand new Comms team under the leadership of our Vice Chair (Marcus) who have perked things up no end in the short time it?s been running with loads more in the pipeline. But yes, I agree ? we?ve got to ?blow our own trumpet? a lot more, because no other b*gger is going to blow it for us!

3. Overseas members, and hear i have been talking to our local lads, have the impression that their vote does not matter. Especially as their problems are seldom addressed it does not matter who is elected or what is decided.

I disagree with the premise that we ignore anybody, let alone our overseas members. One of our major problems is that people don?t tell us what the problems are, they just complain when we don?t recognise them telepathically and address them! Just what are these issues? Who have they been raised with? What makes you think they have been ignored?

It?s very easy to criticise the club but members can do much more for themselves if they take an interest. Let me relay to you my favourite conversation with a member at a club I visited, he was complaining about communications ?

Him : The BSAC do not communicate with their members.
Me : Do you read Dive magazine? There?s always Council, regional and branch stuff in there.
Him : No, I can?t be bothered with all of the adverts.
Me : Do you read the inserts, the occasional NDC bulletin, the letters from the Chairman etc.?
Him : No, all that rubbish goes straight in the bin.
Me : Do you use the web site, the Technical Services section, the news, the forums?
Him : No, can?t be bothered.
Me : Do you read the BSAC Talk and your club notice board?
Him : No.
Me : JUST HOW WOULD YOU LIKE THE BSAC TO COMMUNICATE THEN?
Him : I don?t know?

The point I am trying to make is that if people talk to us then we will talk to them. Communication is a TWO way process! If you?ve got specific problems, or better still if you have a solution to those problems, then we would be delighted to hear from you.

4. UK clubs have difficulties to keep up membership. And that with all the support of the coaching scheme and HQ right by their side. How do you think we do a 1000 miles away, not to mention the present political climate in the Middle East.

You face the same problems as all of our clubs but with a slightly different slant and emphasis, the problems are not that different. Sorry, but we cant do much about the political situation in the middle east, that is best left to other authorities ;-)

And do not tell me there are no new divers as PADI & DAN are doing extremely well.

Who are facing exactly the same problems of churn and acquisition as we are. It isn?t limited to diving either, as I?ve said the main challenge is the change in society.
5. The voteing process may not be the best suitable to ensure that memebers vote, a survey on the webpage and magazine could bring light to that. I agree that a final solution may take a lot of time & money but BSAC MUST ensure that voting participation is substantional higger for the next vote. If one way of voting is not sufficient than maybe a combination of 2 or 3 ways should be considered.

There is a very simple way to improve participation and it?s down to YOU, all of you out there in the branches. There?s only a handful of us on Council, we can?t do it all ourselves. Where is the ?Vote In The Elections? articles in your club magazines?, where are the reminders on your notice boards? Do you discuss your issues at branch committee level and communicate that to your members? Do your committee encourage members to vote for candidates who they feel best support their aims? Start doing that, all of you, in all of your branches, and you will improve turnout. We can?t do that for you, we can only help with things like the communications issues that you?ve already highlighted.

Having said the above i an happy that Mr. Lawrence has taken the issue to hearth and wants to get the ball rolling ensureing improvements. That is all one can ask for. Many Thanks to you all taking the time to support me and other oversea divers in this important issue.

You are more than welcome Khaled, if any member comes to me with a problem then I am always more than happy to try and help them, that?s a major part of the job. But PLEASE use us, we are a resource for you, we represent you. Work with us, it?s our club, we?ll listen to you. Unfortunately we can?t force people to talk to us any more than we can force them to participate in elections. So we have to work with what we've got, only our members can change that.

Kind Regards

Keith L

[Vic]

&gt; I am not sure if there are any known and trusted third party
&gt; agents like ERS who have e-voting facilities, ERS may even
&gt; offer such a service (I don?t know)

<a href="http://www.erbs.co.uk/services/ballots/intvote.htm" >http://www.erbs.co.uk/services/ballots/intvote.htm</a> - there's a demo there as well.

&gt; I like the concept of e-voting, I think that it is something
&gt; that we should investigate, the problems are numerous and it
&gt; is not as secure as traditional ?X marks the spot? voting

I think it can be, if we assume (yes, I know...) that our members who want internet voting can cut/paste..

There's an authenticated login at the URL I gave above. We can generate the authentication info to suit - for example, we could use the membership number for a login ID, and create a password from the same info, but GPG-sign it. Simple, cheap (free,actually), and unfeasibly difficult to circumvent. If ERS can support this, we wouldn't even need to give them an authentication list - they'd just need to check that the signature matches the membership number.

The *only* tricky bit to this is making sure that the original request for a internet vote is both authentic & sent to the right place. There's a few ways to address this, but I don't see the issue as dissimilar to those we face with paper ballot forms.

&gt; if a member pre-registered an email address with HQ for the
&gt; purposes of e-voting then we could supply a third party with
&gt; those email addresses?

Don't we already supply email addresses to HQ?

&gt; Another method is ?on demand? verification and ballot
&gt; distribution. Here I must hold my hand up and say ?my fault,
&gt; we should have that by now? ? I have a development version of
&gt; such a system

Then you've probably solved the caveats I raised above. That's good... ;-)

&gt; 3. On requesting a ballot the BSAC would act on your behalf
&gt; and relay that request to a third party.

I don't like that bit - ballot systems must not only be right, but must also be seen to be right. I'm not suggesting for one moment that anyone would try to filter e-votes to get a desired result - but I am saying that BSAC has no defence whatsoever should someone make that allegation.

HTH

Vic.

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

href="http://www.erbs.co.uk/services/ballots/intvote.htm" &gt; <a href="http://www.erbs.co.uk/services/ballots/intvote.htm" >http://www.erbs.co.uk/services/ballots/intvote.htm</a> - there's a demo there as well.

Thanks Vic - very good... but NO information! Worth looking into though.

&gt; 3. On requesting a ballot the BSAC would act on your behalf
&gt; and relay that request to a third party.

I don't like that bit - ballot systems must not only be right, but must also be seen to be right. I'm not suggesting for one moment that anyone would try to filter e-votes to get a desired result - but I am saying that BSAC has no defence whatsoever should someone make that allegation.

You misunderstand me Vic, such a system would be no different to us distributing the paper ballots as we do at present. What I was musing about was a system where we validate membership and then request an electronic ballot from the ERS on the members behalf. That ballot, and any return, would go straight to the ERS with no further involvement by the BSAC. We would need such a system to distribute authentication codes for the demo system as above.

Regards

Keith L

[Vic]

&gt; Thanks Vic - very good... but NO information!

Rather lacking... But did you try the demo? It shows how the front-end will work (which, let's face it, is the important bit). There are some simple ways for the authentication to work, and some rather less simple ones - but as long as they have a authentication solution (and I think we must assume they do), we could get it to work.

&gt; That ballot, and any return, would go straight to the ERS with
&gt; no further involvement by the BSAC.

Ah, right. As you were, then.

&gt; We would need such a system to distribute authentication codes
&gt; for the demo system as above.

Well, if ERS can accept digital signatures, then we only need send an email to the member requesting an i-vote. If they don't, then we'll need to send a full list as above.

Vic.

[Khaled Alwassia]

What I was musing about was a system where we validate membership and then request an electronic ballot from the ERS on the members behalf. That ballot, and any return, would go straight to the ERS with no further involvement by the BSAC. We would need such a system to distribute authentication codes for the demo system as above.

Regards

Keith L

Keith,
What about the following:
1. Make a "Real Member Area" with user ID & password on the BSAC Web Page.
2. Send out this id & password with the first membership renewal after the system is started others on request.
3. On the secure site a pdf of the ballot is down loadable / printable which than prints automatically security featues, like the membername & membership number of the signed in member which down loaded the PDF. Than one can send the ballot back to BSAC or however. Verification is easy and No personal details more than member name and member number need varifying. If BSAC is worried about the names on the ballot than that could be incyoted via the webpage as well. So the contractor can readit but not BSAC. Anyway the ballot should go direct to the ERBS.

That would coast BSAC less as you so not need to print anything
and still have the security features in place. But than again with just 1600 votes returned I do not think we have a problem with people trying to influence to outcome of a vote.

[Khaled Alwassia]

Keith,
Well do i look like a fool, but i guess we do not have to agree on all points.
I can only say that we would have been pushing every member to vote IF THEY WOULD HAVE GOTTEN THE BALLOTS.

Regarding communication, well here in the Middle East the whole situation may be slightly different as we have difficulties to recieve upto date information of any kind people tend to spend more time on the internet as it is the fastest and most convinient way.
I am happy to hear the the comm's team is hard at work. Looking forward to see lot of new info all around.

By the way is their a specific reason why nobody has anwsered my e-mail send to the coucil members & HQ?

Regs.

Khaled

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

By the way is their a specific reason why nobody has anwsered my e-mail send to the coucil members & HQ?

It is possible they were not received. We do suffer some "collateral damage" as a result of the anti-SPAM war, it is possible that you have been blocked. We receive some 25,000 emails per day addressed to HQ, on a normal day around 24,000 of these are SPAM, inevitably some SPAM leaks through, some legitimate emails are blocked.

Can you please send me TWO copies of an email that you have addressed to HQ. Send one to <a href="mailto:keithl@divebsac.org">keithl@divebsac.org</a>, send the other to <a href="mailto:keith.lawrence@bsac.com">keith.lawrence@bsac.com</a>, that will tell me if you're getting through.

Regards

Keith L
BSAC IT Team Leader

[BSACHQ]

Dear All

Following the suggestions of electronic voting I have been looking into this with the Electoral Reform Society, Keith Lawrence from Council and the Chairman and Honorary Secretary of the BSAC. This is something that the Electoral Reform Society can do. It is in its early stages and I have requested information on how the BSAC would do this. We will look into the options and see if this is a viable proposition for the BSAC in order to meet the needs of our overseas members for future voting. If this is not something that we can do we will ensure that we do look at how we can more efficient in the procedures for overseas voting

If you have any further thoughts on this subject please do email me directly on <a href="mailto:maryt@bsac.com">maryt@bsac.com</a>

Many thanks

Mary Tetley
BSAC Operations Manager
0151 350 6220
<a href="mailto:maryt@bsac.com">maryt@bsac.com</a>

[Alison Boler]

Brilliant news, Mary and everyone. Thanks a lot - sounds very promising. Let us know how you get on.
That's what I call a great response to members.

Allie

[Khaled Alwassia]

Brilliant news, :=That's what I call a great response to members.

Allie

Mary and Keith,
thanks for the positive attitude and can do approach.
Looking forward to hear of any developements.

Khaled