Boat Handling and its ambiguities

[Paul Beckett]

Hi there.

Just wondering, Because there seems to be a lot of ambiguity on the subject.........

Can BSAC boathandlers/RYA Level 2 personnel conduct boat diving without necessarily needing a diver cox to be present?

Having not got round to doing my Boathandling, I got a chance via Ebay to do my RYA Level 2 instead and did it, only to be told I can`t drive the clubs boat because it did not include diver specific operations training.

The only difference it seems between Diver Cox`n and RYA 2 is this picking up divers/ shotlining training which I`m sure I already have a good knowledge of having been out many times before.

In a smallish club like mine on many occasion, a diver cox`n just isn`t available, so what happens then? Are we at the whim of them as a result?

If I were doing anything other handling a dive boat then this would be fine. But nooooo!

Your comments please people........

Paul Graham Beckett
Araes
BSAC 887

[edward haynes]

Paul

Have a read of the link, it may answer your question.

My quick read seems to suggest that if there was an incident on, say, diver pickup. Not being assessed on this aspect could make it more difficult to defend if a claim was made agenst you.

Edward

Hi there.

Just wondering, Because there seems to be a lot of ambiguity on the subject.........

Can BSAC boathandlers/RYA Level 2 personnel conduct boat diving without necessarily needing a diver cox to be present?

Having not got round to doing my Boathandling, I got a chance via Ebay to do my RYA Level 2 instead and did it, only to be told I can`t drive the clubs boat because it did not include diver specific operations training.

The only difference it seems between Diver Cox`n and RYA 2 is this picking up divers/ shotlining training which I`m sure I already have a good knowledge of having been out many times before.

In a smallish club like mine on many occasion, a diver cox`n just isn`t available, so what happens then? Are we at the whim of them as a result?

If I were doing anything other handling a dive boat then this would be fine. But nooooo!

Your comments please people........

Paul Graham Beckett
Araes
BSAC 887

[steve anderson]

The BSAC boat handling course is just that - a course aimed at powerboat handling for divers and is not an assessment of the skills learned.

Each branch has the right to set the level of qualification required to use branch equipment and many insist on the boat handling skills being assessed via the diver cox'n assessment.

If you feel you have the relevents skills either discuss it with your DO and prove to him that you are at the right standard or sit the assessment and prove to everybody that you are up to the required standard.

There are peculiar skill required over and above RYA level two, specifically relating to divers for deployment and recovery so as to not injure anybody. That is why many branches insist that you pass the diver cox'n assessment before being given the keys to the boat.

I agree that in small branches it is difficult to find a cox'n - all the more reason for you and others in your position to take the assessment.

Steve

[steve anderson]

The BSAC boat handling course is just that - a course aimed at powerboat handling for divers and is not an assessment of the skills learned.

Each branch has the right to set the level of qualification required to use branch equipment and many insist on the boat handling skills being assessed via the diver cox'n assessment.

If you feel you have the relevents skills either discuss it with your DO and prove to him that you are at the right standard or sit the assessment and prove to everybody that you are up to the required standard.

There are peculiar skill required over and above RYA level two, specifically relating to divers for deployment and recovery so as to not injure anybody. That is why many branches insist that you pass the diver cox'n assessment before being given the keys to the boat.

I agree that in small branches it is difficult to find a cox'n - all the more reason for you and others in your position to take the assessment.

Steve

[Paul Beckett]

The BSAC boat handling course is just that - a course aimed at powerboat handling for divers and is not an assessment of the skills learned.

Each branch has the right to set the level of qualification required to use branch equipment and many insist on the boat handling skills being assessed via the diver cox'n assessment.

If you feel you have the relevents skills either discuss it with your DO and prove to him that you are at the right standard or sit the assessment and prove to everybody that you are up to the required standard.

There are peculiar skill required over and above RYA level two, specifically relating to divers for deployment and recovery so as to not injure anybody. That is why many branches insist that you pass the diver cox'n assessment before being given the keys to the boat.

I agree that in small branches it is difficult to find a cox'n - all the more reason for you and others in your position to take the assessment.

Steve

Very ture Steve, but the RYA course I did is assessed, the porblem being where can I get some operational coversion training to allow me to do the D cox`n assesment and stand a fair chance of getting the feather in my cap? (All I really need is the section relevant to diving, as I can navigate well and handle the boat well enough as it is.)

The branches are fine, but unless you know what the instructor is going to be looking for exactly on the day then I don`t stand a cat in hells chance of passing.

How difficult is the assesment, and if you screw up will they generally let you try that skill again?

Paul_Beckett

[Mike Halligan]

:=Each branch has the right to set the level of qualification required to use branch equipment and many insist on the boat handling skills being assessed via the diver cox'n assessment.
:=
:=If you feel you have the relevents skills either discuss it with your DO and prove to him that you are at the right standard or sit the assessment and prove to everybody that you are up to the required standard.
:=
The branches are fine, but unless you know what the instructor is going to be looking for exactly on the day then I don`t stand a cat in hells chance of passing.

How difficult is the assesment, and if you screw up will they generally let you try that skill again?

Paul,

Here is the link to the assessment, which must be carried out by an assessor independent of the Branch.

If you have both RYA level 2 and relevant experience, then there shouldn't be a problem. If you foresee any, perhaps your Branch or a BSAC school would do a prep session with you. And if there is a problme during the assessment, then a minor mistake can be rectified by repetition.

If you're entirely unsuited to the role, I doubt you would have passed the level 2 assessment.

Hope this helps,

Mike

[Andy Wade]

:=:=Each branch has the right to set the level of qualification required to use branch equipment and many insist on the boat handling skills being assessed via the diver cox'n assessment.
:=:=
:=:=If you feel you have the relevents skills either discuss it with your DO and prove to him that you are at the right standard or sit the assessment and prove to everybody that you are up to the required standard.
:=:=
:=The branches are fine, but unless you know what the instructor is going to be looking for exactly on the day then I don`t stand a cat in hells chance of passing.
:=
:=How difficult is the assesment, and if you screw up will they generally let you try that skill again?
:=
Paul,

Here is the link to the assessment, which must be carried out by an assessor independent of the Branch.

If you have both RYA level 2 and relevant experience, then there shouldn't be a problem. If you foresee any, perhaps your Branch or a BSAC school would do a prep session with you. And if there is a problme during the assessment, then a minor mistake can be rectified by repetition.

If you're entirely unsuited to the role, I doubt you would have passed the level 2 assessment.

You might know most of this Paul, but I'll list all I can think of anyway.

Just to add to what Mike has said, IIRC there are only a few differences between the RYA and our Diver Cox'n assessments.
The diving stuff of course is the nub of it, naturally.
We place shots in as a matter of course, we also see divers going overboard and picking up people from the water as normal drills, whereas the RYA view them as man overboard emergency actions.
You shouldn't have too much trouble with them as long as you take care with people being in the water, watching out for the sharp spinny thing at the back and don't overshoot the divers.

There are 2 types of pickup, one where there are divers on the shot, and one where they are drifting. Use the wind as a brake where available, use the current if there isn't a wind.
Take great care as divers are affected by current, the boat is affected by both wind and current (in that order).
Aim to stop a few metres before them and slowly move in to pick them up, and you won't go far wrong.
If in doubt, stop 10 metres before them, then slowly move in, this way you can judge the braking action of wind and/or current.
Use your crew to pick the divers up, give clear instructions to them, tell the divers to either split and go either side of the boat, and the crew to do the same, or keep them together and make sure you kill the prop or get into neutral straight away. (I prefer killing the engine if it's a good reliable one as the prop can still spin a bit in neutral for a second or two.)
What else?
Can't think off anything else at the moment, I'm sure someone else will pipe up if I've forgotten something.

[jp]

pretty much good advice that everyone is giving you, but just a couple of things, firstly if ever you turn off an engine while you have divers in the water you are taking a huge chance whether the engine is reliable or not ( your assessor would take a dim view of this situation )as has already been mentioned divers in the water are affected by the tide but the boat has the wind to deal with as well so without power the two will become separated very quickly, then an engine that will not start creates an emergency where there should not be one

secondly,regarding what you will be asked to do is pretty obvious, it will be to drive a boat on a simulated diving trip and your assessor will brief you exactly what is involved before hand

also if the boat is strange to you, you will be given time to get to know the boat

lots of luck
jp


:=:=:=Each branch has the right to set the level of qualification required to use branch equipment and many insist on the boat handling skills being assessed via the diver cox'n assessment.



:=:=:=
:=:=:=If you feel you have the relevents skills either discuss it with your DO and prove to him that you are at the right standard or sit the assessment and prove to everybody that you are up to the required standard.
:=:=:=
:=:=The branches are fine, but unless you know what the instructor is going to be looking for exactly on the day then I don`t stand a cat in hells chance of passing.
:=:=
:=:=How difficult is the assesment, and if you screw up will they generally let you try that skill again?
:=:=
:=Paul,
:=
:=Here is the link to the assessment, which must be carried out by an assessor independent of the Branch.
:=
:=If you have both RYA level 2 and relevant experience, then there shouldn't be a problem. If you foresee any, perhaps your Branch or a BSAC school would do a prep session with you. And if there is a problme during the assessment, then a minor mistake can be rectified by repetition.
:=
:=If you're entirely unsuited to the role, I doubt you would have passed the level 2 assessment.

You might know most of this Paul, but I'll list all I can think of anyway.

Just to add to what Mike has said, IIRC there are only a few differences between the RYA and our Diver Cox'n assessments.
The diving stuff of course is the nub of it, naturally.
We place shots in as a matter of course, we also see divers going overboard and picking up people from the water as normal drills, whereas the RYA view them as man overboard emergency actions.
You shouldn't have too much trouble with them as long as you take care with people being in the water, watching out for the sharp spinny thing at the back and don't overshoot the divers.

There are 2 types of pickup, one where there are divers on the shot, and one where they are drifting. Use the wind as a brake where available, use the current if there isn't a wind.
Take great care as divers are affected by current, the boat is affected by both wind and current (in that order).
Aim to stop a few metres before them and slowly move in to pick them up, and you won't go far wrong.
If in doubt, stop 10 metres before them, then slowly move in, this way you can judge the braking action of wind and/or current.
Use your crew to pick the divers up, give clear instructions to them, tell the divers to either split and go either side of the boat, and the crew to do the same, or keep them together and make sure you kill the prop or get into neutral straight away. (I prefer killing the engine if it's a good reliable one as the prop can still spin a bit in neutral for a second or two.)
What else?
Can't think off anything else at the moment, I'm sure someone else will pipe up if I've forgotten something.

[petesmith]

In the south east region we assess a fair amount of Diver Cox'n. We brief people before coming along by providing them with a copy of the Diver Cox Assessor notes that are freely availably on the BSAC web site, along with a list of other hot topics that Diver Cox'n should now know about ie Voyage Planning

The SE are starting to offer practice days as although some people practice before the assessment often they practice the wrong things - ie often they practice the high speed stuff. DC Assessors are looking for someone who they feel has the boat under their safe control ALL of the time.
If someone fails a task 1st time we allow them to repeat it, We all cock up once in a while. The people who do not reach the standard are those who take multiple times to complete the slow speed tasks.
What we dont want - But often see / even though we state this in the assessment brief is people being throttle happy. To much power without telling crew / passengers whats about to happen - I was recently thrown to my knees due to this!
Diver Cox assessors what people to pass to raise the standard of boat handling within the bsac, if you are taking an assessment contact the diver cox assessor and have a chat - in the SE we are more that willing to go through things.

Hopefully there will be an article on Diver Cox assessments appearing in DIVE sometime over the next few months.

See you on the Water
Pete Smith
SE Coach

[clive ward]

In the south east region we assess a fair amount of Diver Cox'n. We brief people before coming along by providing them with a copy of the Diver Cox Assessor notes that are freely availably on the BSAC web site, along with a list of other hot topics that Diver Cox'n should now know about ie Voyage Planning

The SE are starting to offer practice days as although some people practice before the assessment often they practice the wrong things - ie often they practice the high speed stuff. DC Assessors are looking for someone who they feel has the boat under their safe control ALL of the time.
If someone fails a task 1st time we allow them to repeat it, We all cock up once in a while. The people who do not reach the standard are those who take multiple times to complete the slow speed tasks.
What we dont want - But often see / even though we state this in the assessment brief is people being throttle happy. To much power without telling crew / passengers whats about to happen - I was recently thrown to my knees due to this!
Diver Cox assessors what people to pass to raise the standard of boat handling within the bsac, if you are taking an assessment contact the diver cox assessor and have a chat - in the SE we are more that willing to go through things.

Hopefully there will be an article on Diver Cox assessments appearing in DIVE sometime over the next few months.

See you on the Water
Pete Smith
SE Coach

I had heard that there was to be a new diver cox assessment & this was to be launched at LIDS. Now the new guidelines for club boat ops have been published (though not exactly well publisised)what is the new cox syllabus & where/when is it available for viewing/when will it be implemented?

cheers
Clive

[petesmith]

I had heard that there was to be a new diver cox assessment & this was to be launched at LIDS. Now the new guidelines for club boat ops have been published (though not exactly well publisised)what is the new cox syllabus & where/when is it available for viewing/when will it be implemented?

cheers
Clive

The new guidelines for the safe operation of dive boats by clubs / individuals did come out at LIDS - however these were supposed to be launched by the RNLI who were to bring 3000 copies to the show. However they only brought 6 copies!

The SE region (and other regions I expect) will be visiting clubs to tell they about these new guidelines over the coming months.
The info is on the BSACwebite at <a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/diveboat.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/diveboat.htm</a>
or type "CDA" into the BSAC seach engine

As for the new BH and Diver Cox courses, I do not know the launch date. Speak to HQ / Trevor Davis.

Pete Smith

[mark allen]

The powerpoint VF are still undergoing some work and are awaiting approval from the MCA. As soon as they have been approved then we will launch then. Sorry But its a case of being patient
Mark Allen
BSAC Council



:=I had heard that there was to be a new diver cox assessment & this was to be launched at LIDS. Now the new guidelines for club boat ops have been published (though not exactly well publisised)what is the new cox syllabus & where/when is it available for viewing/when will it be implemented?
:=
:=cheers
:=Clive

The new guidelines for the safe operation of dive boats by clubs / individuals did come out at LIDS - however these were supposed to be launched by the RNLI who were to bring 3000 copies to the show. However they only brought 6 copies!

The SE region (and other regions I expect) will be visiting clubs to tell they about these new guidelines over the coming months.
The info is on the BSACwebite at <a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/diveboat.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/diveboat.htm</a>
or type "CDA" into the BSAC seach engine

As for the new BH and Diver Cox courses, I do not know the launch date. Speak to HQ / Trevor Davis.

Pete Smith

[David Walker]

The powerpoint VF are still undergoing some work and are awaiting approval from the MCA. As soon as they have been approved then we will launch then. Sorry But its a case of being patient

Just curious, are both BH and Cox assessment changing, and if i've done the current BH (which i'm halfway through doing) will I be able to do the new Cox assessment? I'd have thought that they must be assessing the same skills more or less, but then if they were then there'd be no point in changing the course.
Any clues?

David

[Andy Nye]

I have in front of me , 2 copies of the

" THE COMBINED DIVING ASSOCIATIONS " BSAC - SAA - SCOTSAC - PADI "

Guidelines for the safe operation of member club dive boats .

Got them this morning ;-)


What do ya wanna know ?

[Thumper Rider]

What I really want to know is... why can't the RYA level 2 *and* safety boat certificates be accepted for diver cox in the case of a BSAC qualified diver?
As far as I can see from all the publications/links etc the only additional "diver" skills are using transits (basic seamanship) dropping a shot (similar skills to deploying an anchor if you anchor properly!) and dropping off/picking up divers, now I would hope that dropping divers onto a shot should be within the skill levels of a competent boat handler who has dived themselves, and I can assure you that picking up dinghy sailors as a rescue/safety boat cox is *every* bit as difficult as picking up divers(divers don't dangle lots of line in the water whilst simultaneously trapping themselves under performance dinghies and trying to drown!!)
I plan on doing my own diver cox assessment as soon as an assessment session co-incides with my free time... but it galls somewhat having to pay for another assessment of skills which I am qualified to teach and assess within another recognised UK association!
GS
(RYA level 2/Safety boat instructor)

I have in front of me , 2 copies of the

" THE COMBINED DIVING ASSOCIATIONS " BSAC - SAA - SCOTSAC - PADI "

Guidelines for the safe operation of member club dive boats .

Got them this morning ;-)


What do ya wanna know ?

[Paul Beckett]

What I really want to know is... why can't the RYA level 2 *and* safety boat certificates be accepted for diver cox in the case of a BSAC qualified diver?
As far as I can see from all the publications/links etc the only additional "diver" skills are using transits (basic seamanship) dropping a shot (similar skills to deploying an anchor if you anchor properly!) and dropping off/picking up divers, now I would hope that dropping divers onto a shot should be within the skill levels of a competent boat handler who has dived themselves, and I can assure you that picking up dinghy sailors as a rescue/safety boat cox is *every* bit as difficult as picking up divers(divers don't dangle lots of line in the water whilst simultaneously trapping themselves under performance dinghies and trying to drown!!)
I plan on doing my own diver cox assessment as soon as an assessment session co-incides with my free time... but it galls somewhat having to pay for another assessment of skills which I am qualified to teach and assess within another recognised UK association!
GS
(RYA level 2/Safety boat instructor)

:=I have in front of me , 2 copies of the
:=
:=" THE COMBINED DIVING ASSOCIATIONS " BSAC - SAA - SCOTSAC - PADI "
:=
:=Guidelines for the safe operation of member club dive boats .
:=
:=Got them this morning ;-)
:=
:=
:=What do ya wanna know ?

Thanks for the feedback. Folks

It sounds as if this course should be okay then to do with even my limited time aloft in boats.

I must admit though in many cases BSAC are being just a little bit nitpicking with regards to the blok who answered last (GS), as he sounds just like the guy who taught me. (Although the bloke who taught me isn`t a diver). As it does sound far from rocket science, and more to do with the common sense aspect.

Ultimately: -
"Alas Britain is becoming a far more litigious country and not being certified to scratch your own arse may incur sueing"

I do believe this has a large measure of why there is so much red tape with this aspect of diving.

Adios amigo`s

Paul Graham Beckett
BSAC 887

[Mark R Sims]

If the new course is being accessed by the MCA, does that now mean that the BSAC boat handler and dive cox courses are 'officially' recognised? What I mean by that is does the RYA recognise them, as it is the RYA who issue international endorsements and whose licence is the one you have to have if you want to drive a powercraft around most of Europe.

regards,
Mark