who am i allowed to dive with???qualification

[totterfield]

Hi, i am an ocean diver at present,going by what BSACsay can i dive with another ocean diver or does it have to be of someone with higher qualification?? thanks

[Adrian Kelland]

Hi, i am an ocean diver at present,going by what BSACsay can i dive with another ocean diver or does it have to be of someone with higher qualification?? thanks

Quote from <a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpuba1.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpuba1.htm</a>

"OCEAN DIVER (known as CLUB Diver prior to September 2002) (Minimum age 14 years) **
A diver who is competent to dive with another Ocean Diver or Sports, within restriction of conditions already encountered during training and can dive with a Dive Leader (or higher) to expand experience beyond conditions encountered during training. Ocean Divers will not have sufficient experience or knowledge to be partnered with trainee divers or take part in stage decompression stop dives. BSAC Ocean Divers are restricted to the maximum depth experienced during training (15-20m), which can be extended to max. of 20m. Due to the limitations on their rescue skills Ocean Divers can only conduct dives where other suitably qualified divers who can act as surface support are present and the dive is properly Marshalled to ensure that dives are conducted within BSAC Safe Diving Practice recommendations.
BSAC considers this qualification to be of a similar standard to CMAS One Star Diver."

So you can dive with another OD, inconditions you have both experienced before, planning done by the DIve Marshall. In practice I think most clubs would want to buddy you up with someone more experienced.

HTH

Adrian

[edward haynes]

Not forgetting the surface support requirements which means two Ocean Divers can't just go off on their own. Well they can, but then would be diving outside BSAC recommendations.

Edward

:=Hi, i am an ocean diver at present,going by what BSACsay can i dive with another ocean diver or does it have to be of someone with higher qualification?? thanks

Quote from <a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpuba1.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpuba1.htm</a>

"OCEAN DIVER (known as CLUB Diver prior to September 2002) (Minimum age 14 years) **
A diver who is competent to dive with another Ocean Diver or Sports, within restriction of conditions already encountered during training and can dive with a Dive Leader (or higher) to expand experience beyond conditions encountered during training. Ocean Divers will not have sufficient experience or knowledge to be partnered with trainee divers or take part in stage decompression stop dives. BSAC Ocean Divers are restricted to the maximum depth experienced during training (15-20m), which can be extended to max. of 20m. Due to the limitations on their rescue skills Ocean Divers can only conduct dives where other suitably qualified divers who can act as surface support are present and the dive is properly Marshalled to ensure that dives are conducted within BSAC Safe Diving Practice recommendations.
BSAC considers this qualification to be of a similar standard to CMAS One Star Diver."

So you can dive with another OD, inconditions you have both experienced before, planning done by the DIve Marshall. In practice I think most clubs would want to buddy you up with someone more experienced.

HTH

Adrian

[Adrian Kelland]

Not forgetting the surface support requirements which means two Ocean Divers can't just go off on their own. Well they can, but then would be diving outside BSAC recommendations.

Edward

Edward

It does day that in the quote, but it does no harm to mention it separately. Perhaps the source could be re-written to emphasize what the OD can.has to do, and a new paragraph for the duties of the DM/club.

Adrian


:=:=Hi, i am an ocean diver at present,going by what BSACsay can i dive with another ocean diver or does it have to be of someone with higher qualification?? thanks
:=
:=Quote from <a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpuba1.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpuba1.htm</a>
:=
:="OCEAN DIVER (known as CLUB Diver prior to September 2002) (Minimum age 14 years) **
:=A diver who is competent to dive with another Ocean Diver or Sports, within restriction of conditions already encountered during training and can dive with a Dive Leader (or higher) to expand experience beyond conditions encountered during training. Ocean Divers will not have sufficient experience or knowledge to be partnered with trainee divers or take part in stage decompression stop dives. BSAC Ocean Divers are restricted to the maximum depth experienced during training (15-20m), which can be extended to max. of 20m. Due to the limitations on their rescue skills Ocean Divers can only conduct dives where other suitably qualified divers who can act as surface support are present and the dive is properly Marshalled to ensure that dives are conducted within BSAC Safe Diving Practice recommendations.
:=BSAC considers this qualification to be of a similar standard to CMAS One Star Diver."
:=
:=So you can dive with another OD, inconditions you have both experienced before, planning done by the DIve Marshall. In practice I think most clubs would want to buddy you up with someone more experienced.
:=
:=HTH
:=
:=Adrian

[Matt]

Not forgetting the surface support requirements which means two Ocean Divers can't just go off on their own. Well they can, but then would be diving outside BSAC recommendations.

I am sure the surface support requirement was made with good intentions. Unfortunately it means two ODs can no longer dive together at Horsea Lake unless it is a full branch outing.

Attempting to dive the BSAC way seems to become more difficult with each new reccomendation (IMVHO). Shame really.

[David Walker]

I am sure the surface support requirement was made with good intentions. Unfortunately it means two ODs can no longer dive together at Horsea Lake unless it is a full branch outing.

I may be missing the point, but why? Is Horsea mentioned for a particular reason (I don't know they old system)? I think its much better they are safe that just letting people who remember may have done just 5 dives.
All you need is one experienced DM to make sure they're OK before they go in, so its hardly a full branch trip (unless your branch consists of one OWI and 2 ODs...) You could easily have two experienced divers going to do a 60m dive while two ODs go and do a 6m dive, just as long as the experienced ones are around for the probably half an hour the ODs are in the water.

Attempting to dive the BSAC way seems to become more difficult with each new reccomendation (IMVHO). Shame really.

Never found any difficulty with it - maybe we're more active within the branch than others, but rarely do just a couple of divers, let alone ODs, go off and do a dive on their own.

But like I said, I don't know about the old system but this current way seems to make it safe for them, and I have no objection to that.

David

[Dave]

I am sure the surface support requirement was made with good intentions. Unfortunately it means two ODs can no longer dive together at Horsea Lake unless it is a full branch outing.

Nothing to stop them doing that. Horsea is one location they can easily go to without breaking recommendations. Horsea has trained staff on shore at the diving area to deal with incidents.

Dabe

[Philip Smith]

Nothing to stop them doing that. Horsea is one location they can easily go to without breaking recommendations. Horsea has trained staff on shore at the diving area to deal with incidents.

The staff provide additional safety cover, but they do not marshall individual dives, in respect of, for example, risk assessments, pairing divers, giving a safety briefing, supervising buddy checks, logging divers in and out, record-keeping, and debriefing. I don't think the Horsea staff fulfill BSACs requirements for "proper marshalling" of ODs diving together.

Philip Smith

[iainmsmith]

:=Not forgetting the surface support requirements which means two Ocean Divers can't just go off on their own. Well they can, but then would be diving outside BSAC recommendations.

I am sure the surface support requirement was made with good intentions. Unfortunately it means two ODs can no longer dive together at Horsea Lake unless it is a full branch outing.

I didn't think that it was ever possible for a pair of CD/ODs to dive without surface cover?

Iain

[Matt]

:=I am sure the surface support requirement was made with good intentions. Unfortunately it means two ODs can no longer dive together at Horsea Lake unless it is a full branch outing.

Sorry for the delay, been away diving.

I may be missing the point, but why?

Because, when asked by Horsea management BSAC HQ stated in writting that ODs require surface cover. By comparison PADI OWs are free to dive at Horsea unassisted as long as it is within the bounds of the conditions in which they trained. Which leaves a rather absurd situation whereby a PADI OW that joins our BSAC branch can pop into Horsea with a DL under their PADI badge but an OD we trained in branch can not.

Is Horsea mentioned for a particular reason

Horsea is a 6m to 9m, tightly controlled, salt water lake owned by the military. It is quite possibly the safest open water dive site in the UK. It has been our traditional training ground for many years, since well before the current management were awarded the contract to oversee civilian diving. I admit to a somewhat practical outlook but IMVHO a diver qualification which precludes diving as a buddy pair in Horsea lake is no qualification at all. I guess that a pair of ODs planning a guided shore diving holiday in Malta or Spain would also find themselves in trouble as generally there is no additional surface cover.

(I don't know they old system)?

The Novice Diver system allowed a Novice to dive with a DL, AD or Instructor. The Club Diver system allowed CDs to dive with another CD (or higher) with permission from the branch DO. The Ocean Diver system expressly states that ODs can only dive when surface cover is present. Horsea has it's own surface staff but they do not accept responsibility or presumably liability for divers using the lake.

I think its much better they are safe that just letting people who remember may have done just 5 dives.

Who is safer 2 PADI OWs, or a BSAC OD and an AD, or two ODs diving with the DOs permission? IMVHO this is a liability dodging exercise.

All you need is one experienced DM to make sure they're OK before they go in, so its hardly a full branch trip (unless your branch consists of one OWI and 2 ODs...)

The way it tends to work in our branch is that if an experienced Dive Marshal (someone willing, qualified and able) gets involved, it will be a full branch outing as we simply do not have enough willling, qualified and able people to go around those wishing to dive. Unfortunately for our ODs, during the better weather our DMs are more likely to be found offshore than hanging around Horsea lake, as our DMs tend to be our most active branch members.

You could easily have two experienced divers going to do a 60m dive while two ODs go and do a 6m dive, just as long as the experienced ones are around for the probably half an hour the ODs are in the water.

Lets just go back to diver safety. I would far rather have the ODs diving with experienced SDs and the DOs permission, in Horsea (a controlled and relatively safe site), than tagging along on a Trimix outing.

:=Attempting to dive the BSAC way seems to become more difficult with each new reccomendation (IMVHO). Shame really.

Never found any difficulty with it - maybe we're more active within the branch than others, but rarely do just a couple of divers, let alone ODs, go off and do a dive on their own.

As a branch we have some 300 weekend charter spaces booked and filled. Three branch expeds. The club RIB booked for midweek evening dives through to July. Organised training outings once a month...and it is only May! I reckon that makes us a pretty active branch. We are at our organisational limit, in fact a little beyond. Possibly being over capacity makes us a little more sensitive to each increase in the administrative load.

Lets say the branch has 1000 dives organised. Over half our hundred members routinely log 50+ dives a year, which leaves me 1500 dives short...before we even think about our other 50 members or the half dozen logging 100+ dives year in, year out!!! The majority of our members will at some point go off and dive on their own, or in small groups and we positively encourage it. ATEOTD enabling trained divers to go diving safely is the essence of a dive club such as BSAC (YMMV).

But like I said, I don't know about the old system but this current way seems to make it safe for them, and I have no objection to that.

If you mean safe as in allowing BSAC members to dive at sites within their limits, with experienced people from which they can learn, with the agreement of the DO; then I am all for it. If you mean safe as in insurance being valid because the right administrative boxes happen to be ticked; then I object strongly.

I would dearly love to see some statistics which showed the old system to be unsafe. One statistic we do have is a tumbling of membership numbers and I do think it is about time BSAC seriously considered how easy it is to go diving when you are not a BSAC member. From where I am standing that is the real competition that dive clubs face.

[David Walker]

:=I may be missing the point, but why?

Because, when asked by Horsea management BSAC HQ stated in writting that ODs require surface cover. By comparison PADI

Ahhhhh - I've found the point i've been missing! Although I have to admit I thought the 'surface cover for ODs' was just if it was 2 ODs together, but thinking about it it does tend to suggest not...
So yeah, I fully agree that it is a stupid system! I wouldn't want 2 ODs to go diving on their own particularly (depending on who they were), but an OD with a DL or AD obviously seems stupid not to let them. I've never really thought about it before, but I don't think we break the rule very often just through luck more than anything else. But does that mean that one instructor can never go and teach say two new ODs without someone else there to marshall it?
I suppose the justification would be to do with the the lack of rescue skills with no one able to help the DL/AD if they were in trouble, which probably has some relevance, although places like Horsea etc obviously there are people who would help...

David