View Full Version : OD diving without support
micromouse
19-12-2009, 18:29
after reading a current thread (how long???) I just had to post as something has been niggling me for a while. We (wife & I) are currently working our way through BSAC OD. (waiting for first open water dives). We joined BSAC as opposed to PADI as we wanted to dive (curious that) on a regular basis, rather than just pay the money dive the requirements and then pay more and more and more.
However on qualifying OD, we still appear not to be able to find a free few hours, chuck our kit in the car, drive to stoney and jump in, as our qualification is for 20M with Dive marshal and surface cover requirements. so we have to drag others along which might be inconvenient and difficult.
However if we qualified PADI, we could dive to 18M with no other obvious requirements. So at the moment if we want to drive to stoney and bimble around at 10M watching the fish, we appear to have to qualify OD, and then possibly wait several months for the next SD course to appear, or spend money with PADI to transfer and qualify Advanced Open Water, and then we can dive deeper, (not a draw in itself), sooner, and without the overhead cover requirements. and we would then be diving within our qualification.
Is this true or am I missing something? I know people who have qualified OD and then dived with their OD buddy, with no dive marshal, but if the club knew this occured would we be kicked out/ticked off/have our fins burnt? (for the purists we would not be using club kit to dive)
We are pushing for experience and moving upto SD within the club enviroment, but for me the obvious solution is to dive as often as possible ... more diving=more experience
Your thoughts?
MM
Mike Halligan
19-12-2009, 18:48
after reading a current thread (how long???) I just had to post as something has been niggling me for a while. We (wife & I) are currently working our way through BSAC OD. (waiting for first open water dives). We joined BSAC as opposed to PADI as we wanted to dive (curious that) on a regular basis, rather than just pay the money dive the requirements and then pay more and more and more.
However on qualifying OD, we still appear not to be able to find a free few hours, chuck our kit in the car, drive to stoney and jump in, as our qualification is for 20M with Dive marshal and surface cover requirements. so we have to drag others along which might be inconvenient and difficult.
However if we qualified PADI, we could dive to 18M with no other obvious requirements. So at the moment if we want to drive to stoney and bimble around at 10M watching the fish, we appear to have to qualify OD, and then possibly wait several months for the next SD course to appear, or spend money with PADI to transfer and qualify Advanced Open Water, and then we can dive deeper, (not a draw in itself), sooner, and without the overhead cover requirements. and we would then be diving within our qualification.
Is this true or am I missing something? I know people who have qualified OD and then dived with their OD buddy, with no dive marshal, but if the club knew this occured would we be kicked out/ticked off/have our fins burnt? (for the purists we would not be using club kit to dive)
We are pushing for experience and moving upto SD within the club enviroment, but for me the obvious solution is to dive as often as possible ... more diving=more experience
Your thoughts?
MM
Get someone from the club to go with you and manage the dives.
Get several from the club to go with you and make a day of it.
Arrange a club trip somewhere enticing to those who are both qualified and experienced.
just go, dive safe and its not a BSAC trip. you wont be covered by BSAC insurance (or any other iirc as you are technicaly out of your qualifcation requirements)
ive been doing it for years that way BUT i would say that you should get more inwater experiance before biting the bullet
Micromouse. Can I please ask you a question before attempting to answer yours?
If yes then I must ask, Why on earth would you want to dive with the love of your life with the absolute knowlege that if anything went wrong that there would be nobody on the surface qualified/able to assist you both?
Terry
micromouse
19-12-2009, 19:52
Micromouse. Can I please ask you a question before attempting to answer yours?
If yes then I must ask, Why on earth would you want to dive with the love of your life with the absolute knowlege that if anything went wrong that there would be nobody on the surface qualified/able to assist you both?
Terry
Absolute knowlege... no... but then we were not planning to dive in our local hole non diving in the ground, but a well known and busy dive site. We could equally have an accident travelling to the site. so should we travel is different vehicles to mitigate that risk?
BSAC training is billed as being comprehensive and thorough, and from our current experiences it is, but it appears that PADI is a better option for inital training as the ability to dive autonomously as a buddy pair is present from the first qualification, not 15+ dives, 2 qualifications and 12-18 months down the line. Club diving works, but so far we have missed two oppitunities to join in with club events as we work several weekends each month, mainly on sundays, when most club trips are arranged.
MM
micromouse
19-12-2009, 19:56
just go, dive safe and its not a BSAC trip. you wont be covered by BSAC insurance (or any other iirc as you are technicaly out of your qualifcation requirements)
ive been doing it for years that way BUT i would say that you should get more inwater experiance before biting the bullet
We are planning to. We currently live in the pool, and push to join every club trip, even ones we are not yet qualified for. It just seems a bit bizzare that for £300 and 4 days with a commercial orgainisation I am then 'qualified' to do something that with BSAC could take a LOT longer.
MM
northern_diver
19-12-2009, 20:14
I would check, as im not sure in YOUR club, BUT
SOME clubs, allow, because you are at a recognised dive site (capernwray/stoney cove/eccy delph/blue lagoo etc) that you may dive at the location WITHOUT the cover of a dive marhal or dedicated surface support for your party.
This, as far as i can gather, is becasue of the level of support provided by staff, in terms of emergency support is high. This is sometimes higher than your mate sitting bored on the surface. The on site medical gear and often training is waiting to be placed in operation. Many site aso have a small boat for more rapid actions too.
Check with the DO first, but many clubs allow this. Of course, if you happened to have a more experience member of the club present for in/out water supervison/support then thats better. And certainly the better option, increase your club friendship bases.
I must admitt, it is a pain to try organise dives at times but just stick on and it will work out. I say this as OD that wanted to go diving and gain experience, a SD wanting to gain more experience and plan dives and as a TRAINEE DL wanting to organise dives and progess my diving and others.
Doesnt matter what flavour (BSAC, PADI, SSI, SSA, OD, SD,DL, OW, AOW, RD etc) you are, its difficult and hoops have to be jumped through.
Hope that help,
John
iainmsmith
19-12-2009, 20:47
BSAC training is billed as being comprehensive and thorough, and from our current experiences it is, but it appears that PADI is a better option for inital training as the ability to dive autonomously as a buddy pair is present from the first qualification, not 15+ dives, 2 qualifications and 12-18 months down the line.
It...seems a bit bizzare that for £300 and 4 days with a commercial orgainisation I am then 'qualified' to do something that with BSAC could take a LOT longer.
Micromouse,
While PADI OW may appear to give you the ability to dive autonomously, you can take it for granted that there is nothing in the OW syllabus that prepares you to do so. While the qualification may technically allow a diver to dive independently, you might consider which organisation is actually looking after its less experienced divers more responsibly.
(To be fair to PADI, regardless of wording, their model assumes that the diver will be diving in buddy pair as part of a group under the supervision of a Dive Master, rather than as an independent pair doing their own thing without support)
Iain
Micromouse,
While PADI OW may appear to give you the ability to dive autonomously, you can take it for granted that there is nothing in the OW syllabus that prepares you to do so. While the qualification may technically allow a diver to dive independently, you might consider which organisation is actually looking after its less experienced divers more responsibly.
(To be fair to PADI, regardless of wording, their model assumes that the diver will be diving in buddy pair as part of a group under the supervision of a Dive Master, rather than as an independent pair doing their own thing without support)
Iain
Therefore, you would as PADI OW be diving outside the qualifying agency guidelines. But then you wouldn't be members of PADI just qualified by them, what you do after gaining that qualification isn't of any interest, however, with your BSAC Branch you are a member and your Diving Officer (as an example) does care about your well being.
As said above get one or two others to go with you. Once you start diving on a regular basis you will find completing SD much easier. Also you can dive with people outside your Branch (Heresy - I should be burned at the stake).
Regards
Edward
Mike Halligan
20-12-2009, 10:36
(Heresy - I should be burned at the stake).
Greetings, fellow heretic. :D :D :D
Dave Whitlow
20-12-2009, 11:19
Also you can dive with people outside your Branch.
Better make sure they've not got hog loops :eek:
ChristianG
20-12-2009, 11:47
It doesn't seem, really, as if anyone has realised the proper import of this thread.
Two novice divers, and I don't really care what their "grade" is, to me they're still novices, are buddying together? Hoping to do so entirely by themselves?
Hello? The blind leading the blind perhaps? Isn't that why the BSAC is so careful in their mentoring programme yet here are a number of experienced BSACers circumventing, at least sort of, what the BSAC is about?
johnskerry
20-12-2009, 12:44
Stoney Cove is not a benign dive site the Vis can reduce dramatically without warning, and this time of year it’s cold.
I personally would not allow two OD to dive together, let alone on a un marshalled dive.
I have been there on a number of occasions over the years when I have witnessed incidents. The fact is when it all goes wrong it happens very quickly and the only safeguard you have is your training, equipment and experience.
I would recommend you take the advice of your club; they are trying to keep you safe.
John
Dave Whitlow
20-12-2009, 12:54
We are planning to. We currently live in the pool, and push to join every club trip, even ones we are not yet qualified for.
You sound keen and I'd suggest you keep pushing the instructors to further your qualifications and meanwhile get in as much diving as you can, but keeping within the limits of your qualifications.
You have many years diving ahead of you and it is worth the wait to make sure you get off to a safe start.
It just seems a bit bizzare that for £300 and 4 days with a commercial orgainisation I am then 'qualified' to do something that with BSAC could take a LOT longer.
It does seem bizzare but they are not comparable. Let me illustrate from my own experience.
I started diving with PADI and did Open Water in a puddle in Holland which qualified me to 18m. My initial sea diving was then led dives in Malta and I joined a BSAC club and started on Sports Diver. Outside the club I did a few UK dives, like you are considering, as I was keen to go diving and couldn't go on enough of the club dives.
That was a few years ago and looking back, with what I now know, many of those earlier dives should not have been done. Whilst they went OK, neither I nor those I dive with had the training, or experience, to deal with the consequences if things had gone wrong. Had their been any serious problem things might have been very different.
An Ocean Diver has a requirement for Dive Leader, or above, to oversee the diving to ensure the plan, and management of the risks, is within the capacilities of those present.
A well prepared dive site, with an excellent emergency response, is no match for having someone who knows you and your equipment and is looking out for you. If nobody is looking out for you then how will the surface cover know they are needed?
I suggest you speak to your DO/TO and explain your frustration and try to encourage other senior divers in your club to go diving with you.
Spot on from Dave - what I was going to say but worded much better :cool:
G
northern_diver
20-12-2009, 13:28
Greetings, fellow heretic.
Nothing wrong with mixing your clubs:) its not likes its spying:p
John
This is sometimes higher than your mate sitting bored on the surface.
If your surface cover is bored then get better surface support.
I have been surface cover for an instructor friend of mine on a number of occasions and I know where they descend, know where they are likely to be underwater and always on hand when they surface.
Good surface support will be the first to know if there is a problem and can alert the site safety support far sooner than taking your chances someone will notice an unsupported diver.
Having said when I dive with friends I obviously don't have surface support but I do have the knowledge and skills should something go wrong underwater, can that be said for new ocean divers - that is my only concern with new divers going off diving on their own.
Micromouse it really is your call, do you and your wife have the ability to self rescue.
We (wife & I) are currently working our way through BSAC OD. (waiting for first open water dives).
Just one question regarding the above statement:
Have you passed OD yet?
If not then you shouldn't be diving with anyone but your instructor.
Just one question regarding the above statement:
Have you passed OD yet?
If not then you shouldn't be diving with anyone but your instructor.
In view of the fact he says "However on qualifying OD, we still appear not to be able to..." I think it is pretty clear he is thinking of the future
northern_diver
20-12-2009, 18:53
If your surface cover is bored then get better surface support.
Bored doesnt not mean capable and observant, But then maybe its really fun watching someone else enjoying a dive? Surface cover is preferred to none, if anything its someone to cook you dinner while your under the surface, but i know for a fact that A) it happens B) some clubs allow it in there diving, as offical record.
Good surface support will be the first to know if there is a problem and can alert the site safety support far sooner than taking your chances someone will notice an unsupported diver.
Divers you mean? Yes, good support should know this, and sometimes do, given the often less than ideal mates we have sometimes, we all seen it, chatting or having a fag or texting or something. But most are mostly good.
Micromouse it really is your call, do you and your wife have the ability to self rescue
Very true, its all about risk managment and rish understanding. An earlier post about Blind leading the blind (ChristianG if i recall) I think is somewhat true. Every action needs to be carefully thought about and rang by your DO/TO/your mates in the club/more experience divers to check for suitability.
I've seen, in my abiet limited time, so great OD/SD's and some totally useless ones. I heard of senior grades doing silly things too (i assume the council are above SD:p ;) ) So just play it safe.
Dont let anyone break your spirit though, if you want to dive and have the ok, go for it. Dive when and what you can , but most of all, dive safely and enjoyably.
John
micromouse
20-12-2009, 21:11
Pewl!
Firstly yes we are thinking of the future as at the moment we are not qualified at any level and we are aware of our own limitations. Wether or not PADI has a surface/marshal requirement is still a question as at least two PADI instructors have told us that there is no requirement for such cover... two PADI OW can dive together within the 18M requirements.
However taking everything on board we are at the moment going to wait and see what happens within the club enviroment. If we are on training dives every couple of weeks in the next couple of months, and then can start to progress towards SD within our club we will be happy..if the club decide that the next SD course is not going to be until the summer (there is a SD course running at the moment and there have been comments about running courses too quickly after each other), then we will probably jump up to stoney and join the BSAC SD course... £300 for 3/4 days, its only slightly more than PADI but its a good progression building on what we have already learnt and experienced within BSAC, I'd rather not have to learn the PADI way of doing things when I am quite happy where my snorkel is...
Many thanks
MM
Wether or not PADI has a surface/marshal requirement is still a question as at least two PADI instructors have told us that there is no requirement for such cover... two PADI OW can dive together within the 18M requirements.
Hi MM,
This is in line with my earlier comment about PADI having no interest in you're diving, unless you are paying them. The only members of PADI are their 'active' instructors.
Regards
Edward
Nigel Hewitt
21-12-2009, 07:21
...as at least two PADI instructors have told us that there is no requirement for such cover... two PADI OW can dive together within the 18M requirements.
Get real.
This is the UK. You can dive how you like, when you like and as deep as you like with any or with no qualifications whatsoever. All qualifications are advisory.
Just recognise that OD does not attempt to train you to assess a dive site for safety and rescue considerations.
If you're prepared to make that assessment yourself so be it but don't blame your instructors if you make a bad call and it all goes wrong on you.
Ron MacRae
21-12-2009, 13:36
Micromouse,
The BSAC rules are there to protect you. I think the requirement for a DM is a very reasonable one, which you can ignore at your peril. You do not have the experience yet to judge when it is safe for someone at your current skill level to dive. Unfortunatly at OD you don't know what you don't know, yet.
A club's duty of care lasts all the time you are a member. I suspect that's a major difference between a professional and amatur training system? Did you also ask the PADI DMs if they thought it was a good idea for two recently qualified divers to go diving on their own, in the UK, in winter, with no support/cover?
Speaking as a DO I would even be unhappy with two newly qualified ODs diving together, with a DM present. Especially at this time of year with it's special risks. Yes it's allowed. Is it safe? NO, not IMO. I'd be wanting a couple of SDs or DLs to go with them on their first half dozen real dives.
Once you get through OD then badger your club to take you diving.
Most clubs can accomodate people who want to go diving all year round.
Don't be in too big a hurry to process through the grades. Once you finish OD do a summer of diving with your club before attempting SD. Try to get at least a 1 week diving holiday, diving every day. It's amazing the improvement in skills you will see with concentrated repetition. This will do you much more good than the SD course.
Happy diving,
Ron.
Ask yourself this question..
Do you really want to go diving without someone knowing exactly where and when you are underwater?
The difference between being 1minute overdue and having people out there looking and being several hours overdue before someone wonders why your car is still in the car park at closing time is quite possibly the difference between 'rescued' and 'dead'.
That is why BSAC doesn't permit newly qualified divers to go diving without surface cover and doesn't encourage anyone to do that at all really.
It is really not a big restriction in practise and as a not yet qualified diver it isn't something to worry about.
PADI might 'allow' it but I think really it is just that they as far as I can tell they never consider their paying customers going diving without a dive master in tow.
Iain.
Just recognise that OD does not attempt to train you to assess a dive site for safety and rescue considerations.
This is why I prefer the old system - two CDs diving together could do so with the DO's approval. So the DO gets to do the assessment, and the keen divers get to go diving.
I wonder why we changed that...
Vic.
ChristianG
21-12-2009, 16:26
This is why I prefer the old system - two CDs diving together could do so with the DO's approval. So the DO gets to do the assessment, and the keen divers get to go diving.
I wonder why we changed that...
I don't know what a CD is, nor could I be bothered to go and find out but, seems to me, it's one hell of a responsibility to place on a DO's shoulders to make the final decision as to whether such people get to go diving together on their own cognisance.
I know that I, for one, wouldn't want that kind of responsibility on my shoulders.
I don't know what a CD is, nor could I be bothered to go and find out.
CD's = Club divers.
When BSAC became all PC and dropped the Novice 1 and 2 qualification they introduced the Club Diver grade which were divers trained within the club environment and Ocean divers who were trained within BSAC schools, then they got all PC again and called all entry level divers Ocean Divers :D
northern_diver
21-12-2009, 18:26
This is why I prefer the old system - two CDs diving together could do so with the DO's approval. So the DO gets to do the assessment, and the keen divers get to go diving.
I wonder why we changed that...
Vic.
It shouldnt, in some form or another.
John
I don't know what a CD is, nor could I be bothered to go and find out but, seems to me, it's one hell of a responsibility to place on a DO's shoulders to make the final decision as to whether such people get to go diving together on their own cognisance.Speaking as a DO and instructor that has lived through all incarnations since the Novice course. To answer the original question my thoughts are, we (BSAC) are (currently) too precious with our ODs and not precious enough with our SDs.
Ocean Divers receive more training than any other mainstream, entry level, scuba course I know of. The final assessment is to lead an instructor on a dive to (no deeper than) 20m. So they should not really be signed off unless they are able to demonstrate they can do so safely. There is only so much trouble they might get into within a 20m no decompression (on air tables) qualification limit. Virtually all of it rectified by returning to the surface with or without a weight belt.
I would personally be quite happy for the Ocean Divers in my branch to return to the organised sites they trained at, or avail themselves of the local charter and shore diving services that cater for their own PADI OWs. I am confident of the training our Ocean Divers receive and I am confident it is superior to OW and possibly even AOW. I would prefer Ocean Divers to enter the Sport Diver course with more of yer actual diving experience acquired on shallow dives. Sadly I am not allowed to advise our ODs as such, which makes for an interesting conversation when you also have OWs within the branch ;)
I know that I, for one, wouldn't want that kind of responsibility on my shoulders.For me personally, it is nothing like the pain of watching the enthusiasm drain out of ODs fed up of not diving and instructors fed up of having to train ODs to get them diving. I think you need to put the burden of responsibility in the context of the alternatives, which are; entirely without structured support, or a Sport Diver ticket with a 35m depth limit, as much deco as you think you can do and a lot of scope for getting into trouble perfectly legitimately.
Just a thought.......
Whilst I understand that you wish to dive under the BSAC system, I know of no rules that would prevent you diving with a PADI Divemaster (I'm sure someone will let me know if I'm wrong) so far I have exclusively trained PADI and the current school I dive with has 30+ DM's we are all actively involved with training 'new recruits' and do so because we love diving.
I don't know if our 'club' is unique but if you contacted our instructor he would be only too happy to put you in touch with a competant DM to take you for a dive within your qualification.
None of us do it for money and payment is usually expenses and lunch. You could try contacting the Lds and asking if a DM is available.
Just a thought.......
Whilst I understand that you wish to dive under the BSAC system, I know of no rules that would prevent you diving with a PADI Divemaster (I'm sure someone will let me know if I'm wrong) ...............
Hi,
Whilst this may well be correct if the diving is sanctioned by thier DO, remember any diving by branch members must be sanctioned by the DO. As an example if two OD's went on holiday, they could well go diving with a DM from a local dive shop.
The important thing here is that the DM's working for the shop will have adequate third party liability insurance which will hopefully cover them should anything untoward happen.
If you were to volunteer as an individual to take two BSAC OD's diving then it is reasonable to say that you would be held responsible should anything untowards happen. So it begs the question, do you have adequate 3rd party liability insurance that covers you for such activities.
We as BSAC members are covered by BSAC 3rd party liability insurance whilst diving, provided we remain within the safe diving practices as laid down by BSAC.
regards
Hamish
Steve Walsh
23-12-2009, 07:45
Get real.
This is the UK. You can dive how you like, when you like and as deep as you like with any or with no qualifications whatsoever. All qualifications are advisory.
Just recognise that OD does not attempt to train you to assess a dive site for safety and rescue considerations.
If you're prepared to make that assessment yourself so be it but don't blame your instructors if you make a bad call and it all goes wrong on you.
this is the best advice so far.
bythesea
24-12-2009, 11:53
If you have completed the OD course you have your qualification, just go diving, if it is you and the wife going together it is not a club dive, club rules do not apply.
If it is apprehension that is stopping you then best go with people from the club until you are happy enough to do it yourself.
Breath....float...surface before the tank is empty.....job done....
Stoney has one of the best rescue teams in the country but it wont come to that, stay shallow, get on and enjoy it....Peace out
bythesea
24-12-2009, 12:02
Micromouse,
The BSAC rules are there to protect you. I think the requirement for a DM is a very reasonable one, which you can ignore at your peril. You do not have the experience yet to judge when it is safe for someone at your current skill level to dive. Unfortunatly at OD you don't know what you don't know, yet.
A club's duty of care lasts all the time you are a member. I suspect that's a major difference between a professional and amatur training system? Did you also ask the PADI DMs if they thought it was a good idea for two recently qualified divers to go diving on their own, in the UK, in winter, with no support/cover?
Speaking as a DO I would even be unhappy with two newly qualified ODs diving together, with a DM present. Especially at this time of year with it's special risks. Yes it's allowed. Is it safe? NO, not IMO. I'd be wanting a couple of SDs or DLs to go with them on their first half dozen real dives.
Once you get through OD then badger your club to take you diving.
Most clubs can accomodate people who want to go diving all year round.
Don't be in too big a hurry to process through the grades. Once you finish OD do a summer of diving with your club before attempting SD. Try to get at least a 1 week diving holiday, diving every day. It's amazing the improvement in skills you will see with concentrated repetition. This will do you much more good than the SD course.
Happy diving,
Ron.
Christ, talk about a power trip.
They are talking about going to stoney not some uncharted piece of coast line. Stoney has support and surface cover in abundance.
The problem with this approach is the OD becomes very dependant on the support and this lengthens the time it takes for the individual to become an independent diver. Am I mistaken or have they not been trained to be independent?
Ron MacRae
24-12-2009, 13:31
Christ, talk about a power trip.
I'm speaking as someone who
a) Last year had had 2 divers for whom I was DM helicoptered out of Stoney.
b) A few months ago helped recover a diver, who subsequently died, at another equally well provisioned quarry further south.
In both cases the dives were neither deep nor long.
So don't tell me things can't go wrong at Stoney or anywhere else. That sort of attitude can make people complacent. By the time you get to the surface for that good support to kick in it can be too late.
Not everyone who comes out of the OD training is a good diver, many take a bit of practice too. I'd much prefer a new OD to dive with more experienced buddies for the first few dives.
You call that a power trip. I call that trying to reduce the possibility of something going wrong. As others have said they'd probably be fine on their own, and I agree, but given the choice I'd rather have experienced support in place, under the water as a buddy, where it might do some good, just in case.
And no ODs are not trained to be independent.
Ron.
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