Dive Show

[tucker]

Was it me or was the Dive show at LIDS sadly lacking this year. No Northern Diver, No Sunnto, No major companies etc, also the technical problems that happened during the Cousteau lecture on Saturday was highly embarrassing.

is it off to Birmingham every year now?

Tucker

[Bill Bird]

Was it me or was the Dive show at LIDS sadly lacking this year. No Northern Diver, No Sunnto, No major companies etc, also the technical problems that happened during the Cousteau lecture on Saturday was highly embarrassing.

is it off to Birmingham every year now?

Tucker

The comment was made by a few of our members that it didn't seem as big as last year, although plenty of ideas for holidays. AP Valves was there, but I agree that generally the major's players didn't seem to be there. Perhaps the organisers can give us an idea why it did seem to be more poorly attended by traders this year (is the cost putting them off)?

[Melanopterus]

:=Was it me or was the Dive show at LIDS sadly lacking this year. No Northern Diver, No Sunnto, No major companies etc, also the technical problems that happened during the Cousteau lecture on Saturday was highly embarrassing.
:=
:=is it off to Birmingham every year now?
:=
:=Tucker

The comment was made by a few of our members that it didn't seem as big as last year, although plenty of ideas for holidays. AP Valves was there, but I agree that generally the major's players didn't seem to be there. Perhaps the organisers can give us an idea why it did seem to be more poorly attended by traders this year (is the cost putting them off)?

Is it because the club magazine DIVE is promoting an alternative show to the BSAC show at more or less the same time and thereby drawing away some of the exhibitors? Northern Diver and Suunto went to Go Diving in Birmingham.
I dont know why the BSAC allows DIVE to do that because it is well known that the BSAC gets an important amount of revenue from LIDS. (It may be more than from its share of revenue from DIVE!)

[benpanter]

:=:=Was it me or was the Dive show at LIDS sadly lacking this year. No Northern Diver, No Sunnto, No major companies etc, also the technical problems that happened during the Cousteau lecture on Saturday was highly embarrassing.
:=:=
:=:=is it off to Birmingham every year now?
:=:=
:=:=Tucker
:=
:=The comment was made by a few of our members that it didn't seem as big as last year, although plenty of ideas for holidays. AP Valves was there, but I agree that generally the major's players didn't seem to be there. Perhaps the organisers can give us an idea why it did seem to be more poorly attended by traders this year (is the cost putting them off)?

Is it because the club magazine DIVE is promoting an alternative show to the BSAC show at more or less the same time and thereby drawing away some of the exhibitors? Northern Diver and Suunto went to Go Diving in Birmingham.
I dont know why the BSAC allows DIVE to do that because it is well known that the BSAC gets an important amount of revenue from LIDS. (It may be more than from its share of revenue from DIVE!)

Er... Not sure if you have the facts straight here. I don't know about the "Go Diving" show, but I'm pretty sure that the Scotland (every two years), LIDS (spring) and NEC (autumn) shows are organised by the Diver magazine. BSAC doesn't, as far as I know, make any money directly from the organisers, although we do have a stand at each event selling mailshop goods and offering information. I'm not sure if we have to pay for that stall, but I'd be a bit suprised if we didn't.

Dive and Diver are in competition, so it is hardly suprising that Dive promotes "go diving" over LIDS, NEC etc.

The rumour I heard was that Docklands is such a pain to get to with the traffic that most exhibitors decided (after spending n hours attempting to get out of London last year) not to attend.

HTH,

Ben

[Melanopterus]

Let me assure you that LIDS is owned by the BSAC and operated for the club by a company owned by the same owner as Diver magazine. As such the BSAC gets a lot of revenue from it.

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Let me assure you that LIDS is owned by the BSAC and operated for the club by a company owned by the same owner as Diver magazine. As such the BSAC gets a lot of revenue from it.

Your "assurances" are worthless. LIDS is =NOT= owned or organised in any way by the BSAC, it is owned and organised by part of the Diver group. Under a long standing agreement with Diver group the BSAC always attends and promotes this show.

Keith L

[Steve Walker]

Was it me or was the Dive show at LIDS sadly lacking this year. No Northern Diver, No Sunnto, No major companies etc, also the technical problems that happened during the Cousteau lecture on Saturday was highly embarrassing.

is it off to Birmingham every year now?

Tucker

Just my $0.02 worth...
maybe it's something to do with diving being a minority sport and with two competing events, plus the Brum and Scottish events, the marketplace is already overcrowded ?

Or maybe there's more divers who just aren't interested these days ? Having been to three Brum NEC shows, I doubt I'd ever be motivated to travel almost 250-300 miles for another dive show, waste of a potentially good diving day IMHO.

[John Bantin]

:=Let me assure you that LIDS is owned by the BSAC and operated for the club by a company owned by the same owner as Diver magazine. As such the BSAC gets a lot of revenue from it.

Your "assurances" are worthless. LIDS is =NOT= owned or organised in any way by the BSAC, it is owned and organised by part of the Diver group. Under a long standing agreement with Diver group the BSAC always attends and promotes this show.

Keith L

I do hope you are not intentionally misleading anyone Keith.

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

:=:=Let me assure you that LIDS is owned by the BSAC and operated for the club by a company owned by the same owner as Diver magazine. As such the BSAC gets a lot of revenue from it.
:=
:=Your "assurances" are worthless. LIDS is =NOT= owned or organised in any way by the BSAC, it is owned and organised by part of the Diver group. Under a long standing agreement with Diver group the BSAC always attends and promotes this show.
:=
:=Keith L

I do hope you are not intentionally misleading anyone Keith.

So do I John! I am familiar with the actual contract, I have a copy around here somewhere. If you and/or Diver group feel that my comment was in any way misleading then I would be more than happy to correct it. It is just that the comment made by the original poster was totally incorrect - the LIDS show is =NOT= owned or organised by the BSAC, it is organised by a company that is part of the Diver group, it is that company that the BSAC has a contract with.

Regards

Keith L

[Dave Leigh]

:=:=:=Let me assure you that LIDS is owned by the BSAC and operated for the club by a company owned by the same owner as Diver magazine. As such the BSAC gets a lot of revenue from it.
:=:=
:=:=Your "assurances" are worthless. LIDS is =NOT= owned or organised in any way by the BSAC, it is owned and organised by part of the Diver group. Under a long standing agreement with Diver group the BSAC always attends and promotes this show.
:=:=
:=:=Keith L
:=
:=I do hope you are not intentionally misleading anyone Keith.

So do I John! I am familiar with the actual contract, I have a copy around here somewhere. If you and/or Diver group feel that my comment was in any way misleading then I would be more than happy to correct it. It is just that the comment made by the original poster was totally incorrect - the LIDS show is =NOT= owned or organised by the BSAC, it is organised by a company that is part of the Diver group, it is that company that the BSAC has a contract with.
:

Keith, are you saying that BSAC does not recieve any money from the organisers for the London Dive Show? (A simple yes or no will do).

Dave

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Keith, are you saying that BSAC does not recieve any money from the organisers for the London Dive Show? (A simple yes or no will do).

No, I am saying that the show is =NOT= owned or organised by the BSAC as has been stated. Yes, the club does receive a sum of money from the LIDS show - that fact is very well known and I have mentioned it here myself in the past. What will not be discussed are details or figures relating to this or to any other commercial contract between the BSAC and our business partners, that information is confidential and potentially commercially sensitive and therefore will not be made public domain.

Regards

Keith L

[Dave Leigh]

:=Keith, are you saying that BSAC does not recieve any money from the organisers for the London Dive Show? (A simple yes or no will do).

No, I am saying that the show is =NOT= owned or organised by the BSAC as has been stated. Yes, the club does receive a sum of money from the LIDS show - that fact is very well known and I have mentioned it here myself in the past. What will not be discussed are details or figures relating to this or to any other commercial contract between the BSAC and our business partners, that information is confidential and potentially commercially sensitive and therefore will not be made public domain.

Oh nonesense Keith. BSAC gets about ?60k from Lids.
Pretty good pay for just having to turn up!


Regards

Keith L

[John Bantin]

I do not know exactly what BSAC gets as its share from LIDS but I would be very happy to exchange it for what I am paid to work all year for Diver Mag.!!!

I did not go to either show (I was away diving) but I would be interested to hear how they compared from someone without a vested interest who went to both.

[jp]

John
I have not seen your retraction when you implied Keith was misleading others by saying BSAC does not own LIDS.

Are you just trying to stir things up or indeed are you just misleading readers of this forum

JP



I do not know exactly what BSAC gets as its share from LIDS but I would be very happy to exchange it for what I am paid to work all year for Diver Mag.!!!

I did not go to either show (I was away diving) but I would be interested to hear how they compared from someone without a vested interest who went to both.

[Dave Leigh]

John
I have not seen your retraction when you implied Keith was misleading others by saying BSAC does not own LIDS.

I don't think anyone's owed a retraction from John, I don't think Keith has been entirly forthcoming as he failed to point out in his earlier post that the BSAC recieves a share of the revenue from LIDS. And as usual he's hiding behind pompous rubbish about commercial interests in order to avoid accountability to the membership.


Are you just trying to stir things up or indeed are you just misleading readers of this forum

I think John's being quite fair and honest.

If you want to see things stirred up, then consider this. By allowing Dive (the BSAC magazine, apparently) to promote a rival show they have taken some major exhibitors away from LIDS thus reducing the share of the revenue that BSAC gets. Is that in the interests of the membership?

Dave

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

I have not seen your retraction when you implied Keith was misleading others by saying BSAC does not own LIDS.

Are you just trying to stir things up or indeed are you just misleading readers of this forum

Woah! Steady on there, nobody is trying to mislead anybody else, the one totally incorrect statement made has been corrected, John was making a personal comment more than anything else.

If divers want to discuss the merits or otherwise of the different shows then fine, that's what these forums are for, but personally I think that the arguments about the "best" show rate alongside the boring and pointless "my agency is better than your agency" debates!

I was at LIDS as usual this year, I couldn't make it to The Outdoor Show (Go Diving was just part of a bigger show) due to being on holiday. So I would also be interested in unbiased/unopinionated comments from people who attended both. The shows are for divers after all, if we know what people go (or don't go!) for then maybe we can improve the shows.

Keith L

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

I don't think anyone's owed a retraction from John, I don't think Keith has been entirly forthcoming as he failed to point out in his earlier post that the BSAC recieves a share of the revenue from LIDS. And as usual he's hiding behind pompous rubbish about commercial interests in order to avoid accountability to the membership.

There is a one word answer to that Dave but our forum software wont let me post it and even if it would I would have to moderate my own post. Get real - there will always be commercially sensitive information, as with all commercial contracts they will not be discussed in detail in public. That's real life - it's called looking after the club on behalf of the members.

If you want to see things stirred up, then consider this. By allowing Dive (the BSAC magazine, apparently) to promote a rival show they have taken some major exhibitors away from LIDS thus reducing the share of the revenue that BSAC gets. Is that in the interests of the membership?

Real World Lesson #2 : Dive is an independant magazine contracted to provide BSAC content and magazines for our members. We do not have (and do not wish to have) editorial or contractural control over what else the Dive publishers do.

So you're off to a very shaky start by implying that we somehow "allowed", or agreed, or didn't agree, or whatever... to Dive promoting The Outdoor Show! Look, it's quite simple... both LIDS and The Outdoor Show ARE INDEPENDANT SHOWS, BY INDEPENDANT COMPANIES =AND NOTHING (apart from our LIDS contract) TO DO WITH THE BSAC=!!

So discuss the different shows by all means, but if you're searching for a BSAC/Council bashing implement then I'm affraid that I can't help you - the situation is EXACTLY as I have described with no hidden agendas or vested interests for as far as the eye can see. I do know what I'm talking about BTW, I have all of the relevant contracts and have been party to all correspondance, so unless you are party to something that even Council isn't Dave then it's you who should be retracting comments!

Regards

Keith L

[Dave Leigh]

There is a one word answer to that Dave but our forum software wont let me post it and even if it would I would have to moderate my own post. Get real - there will always be commercially sensitive information, as with all commercial contracts they will not be discussed in detail in public. That's real life - it's called looking after the club on behalf of the members.

Except that the information is now in the public domain, so I think its right a proper that we discuss it.


:=If you want to see things stirred up, then consider this.

Real World Lesson #2 : Dive is an independant magazine contracted to provide BSAC content and magazines for our members. We do not have (and do not wish to have) editorial or contractural control over what else the Dive publishers do.

So you're off to a very shaky start by implying that we somehow "allowed", or agreed, or didn't agree, or whatever... to Dive promoting The Outdoor Show! Look, it's quite simple... both LIDS and The Outdoor Show ARE INDEPENDANT SHOWS, BY INDEPENDANT COMPANIES =AND NOTHING (apart from our LIDS contract) TO DO WITH THE BSAC=!!

... apart from the fact that BSAC gets 60 grand from one and nothing from the other. Obiviously a definition of the word 'independant' that I'm not familiar with.


So discuss the different shows by all means, but if you're searching for a BSAC/Council bashing implement then I'm affraid that I can't help you - the situation is EXACTLY as I have described with no hidden agendas or vested interests for as far as the eye can see. I do know what I'm talking about BTW, I have all of the relevant contracts and have been party to all correspondance, so unless you are party to something that even Council isn't Dave then it's you who should be retracting comments!

All I was pointing out was that by promoting another show, Dive was taken revenue away from the BSAC. There are conflicting interests there so I don't see what there is to retract?

Dave


Regards

Keith L

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

All I was pointing out was that by promoting another show, Dive was taken revenue away from the BSAC. There are conflicting interests there so I don't see what there is to retract?

OK, I can see where you're coming from - but then The Outdoor Show wasn't organised by Dive magazine either!

For "conflict of interest" try saying "commercial reality" because that's exactly what I'm seeing here. The real world out here is full of such things, there's even other diving organisations "taking revenue away" from the BSAC. To make matters worse they even advertise their courses and their schools in Dive (and other) magazines!

Please try and get some perspective Dave, OK, there's another dive show organiser around, it's called competition, something that generally, in the long term, acts in the interest of the consumer - in other words, ordinary divers.

There is no conflict here, no conflict of interests either, just a commercial reality that we have to live with and manage in the best interests of the BSAC and our members. So I am at a loss to work out just what your problem with this commercial reality is and just what you think we should (even if we could!) be doing about it.

Regards

Keith L

[John Bantin]

:=I have not seen your retraction when you implied Keith was misleading others by saying BSAC does not own LIDS.

:=Are you just trying to stir things up or indeed are you just misleading readers of this forum

Woah! Steady on there, nobody is trying to mislead anybody else, the one totally incorrect statement made has been corrected, John was making a personal comment more than anything else.

I have not misled anyone. I just thought that Keith?s posting disassociating the BSAC from LIDS was misleading (intentionally or not) since I knew the BSAC got a hefty slice of income from it. I have always thought that since LIDS evolved from CPEX everyone knew that.

I am still interested to hear how both shows compared from someone who went to both.

[Dave Leigh]

:=All I was pointing out was that by promoting another show, Dive was taken revenue away from the BSAC. There are conflicting interests there so I don't see what there is to retract?

OK, I can see where you're coming from - but then The Outdoor Show wasn't organised by Dive magazine either!

No it wasn't organised by them, but as I understand it they were involved with, and promoted a diving section of the show.


For "conflict of interest" try saying "commercial reality" because that's exactly what I'm seeing here.



The real world out here is full of such things, there's even other diving organisations "taking revenue away" from the BSAC.

.. and very successfully if the drop in BSAC membership figures are anything to go by.

To make matters worse they even advertise their courses and their schools in Dive (and other) magazines!

Very true. That was the case from the start of the magazine contract (and with its predecessor for that matter). Unfortunately in the case of the outdoor show, it seems that BSAC is happy to sit back and watch it's own contracted magazine taking revenue away. That doesn't seem like 'commercial reality' to me.


Please try and get some perspective Dave, OK, there's another dive show organiser around, it's called competition, something that generally, in the long term, acts in the interest of the consumer - in other words, ordinary divers.

Whilst I don't care whether there are one, two or no dive shows at all, I wouldn't agree that having more of them is necessarily in the interests of divers. What most people want from the shows are cheap equipment and bargain holidays. There is arguably more competition (and thus cheaper prices) having all the suppliers within one show not spread across two. So your implication that all competition will benefit the consumer doesn't really hold water. Just look at the railways.


There is no conflict here, no conflict of interests either, just a commercial reality that we have to live with and manage in the best interests of the BSAC and our members. So I am at a loss to work out just what your problem with this commercial reality is and just what you think we should (even if we could!) be doing about it.

What should you be doing?
Firstly, given the recent history of the organisation, you need to be more transparent about where BSAC gets its money from and where its spent. Your arrogant refusal to give information about these matters only serves to deepend suspicions about the organisation.
Secondly, the magazine that is contracted by BSAC should not be trying working directly against the organisation's interests. The fact is that in 'the real world' magazines have contracts with advertisers and supporting organisations that insist they do not act against those interests. Go and ask any of the major publishers and you'll find out.

But ultimately, I really don't care. I gave up caring about BSAC long ago.


Regards

Keith L

[Lynn Jackson]

And for many the point of dive shows is to buy kit.

You can't get a car there (I have no intention of paying the congestion charge on top of exorbitant car park charges) andI don't fancy carry my purchases on the Tube/train. And Brum is much closer.

Quite frankly London's a non-starter for many of the population not in the South East.

[Nigel Hewitt]

Quite frankly London's a non-starter for many of the population not in the South East.

I admit one of the reasons I didn't bother this year was the way the railways messed me about last year. A dive show isn't worth that sort of agro and even that was better than driving.

Tonight I will hit the Friday traffic from Hell driving from home to Weymouth but, hey, we're going diving so that's OK.

[Andy Nye]

Hi all,

I have been reading this thread with NO intrest at all.

I don't care really how much the BSAC get from it, surely the more the better.

The DIVE SHOWS in my mind are no longer for me, because i'm not into holiday diving, which seems to make up 75 % of the exhibitors. I can't see having a day out and sitting in on any of the talks.
Years ago, divers went to the dive shows to buy cheap kit, BUT nowadays, you can buy cheaper off the net, or though someone that you know.
Having had over 100 divers on my boats since the dive show, 90 % of them say the EXCEL SHOW is utter cr*p. Which is a real crying shame really.

NOW back in Jan , I was at EXCEL buying lots of kit for the boat, NOT only was it cheaper than what bits i needed i could find on the net, but found that the day was to short.

TRANSPORT was by car, drove straight to the Dartford crossing , hang a left and within 20 minutes was there, CAR PARK was ? 5 and operated a park and ride system which was only 3/4 miles from Excel, and buses were run every 15 minutes.... which was easier running stuff back to the car. FOOD was cheaper.

So, why are divers paying charges for the London road fee's ?
why are Trains and TUBES mentioned ?


Think the 7 p's are in forced with most divers.

Andy

[PeteM]

You can't get a car there (I have no intention of paying the congestion charge on top of exorbitant car park charges) andI don't fancy carry my purchases on the Tube/train. And Brum is much closer.

LIDS has many critisms - congestion charging is not one of them as 1) its outside the zone and 2) it does not apply on Saturday or Sunday.

Do agree the car parking charges are ridiculously high being about twice what they are at the boat show

[terryh]

Was it me or was the Dive show at LIDS sadly lacking this year. No Northern Diver, No Sunnto, No major companies etc, also the technical problems that happened during the Cousteau lecture on Saturday was highly embarrassing.

is it off to Birmingham every year now?

Tucker

Putting my other hat on, I have for several years now been
involved with an overseas dive school and we have exhibited at
LIDS, NEC and Scottish Shows.

Last year we did a survey to gauge the percentages of each type
of stand and what each section of the market was trying to
acheive. We also tied that in with what sort of response we got
from each show.

The result was self-explanatory, with the NEC coming off as the
best by far in quality enquiries leading to actual confirmed
bookings.

We concluded that quality + geographical location/logistics
made the NEC vastly superior to EXCEL and so no longer exhibit
at LIDS, prefering to concentrate on the NEC.

See you in October.

TerryH

[Matt]

.. and very successfully if the drop in BSAC membership figures are anything to go by.

...

Unfortunately in the case of the outdoor show, it seems that BSAC is happy to sit back and watch it's own contracted magazine taking revenue away. That doesn't seem like 'commercial reality' to me.

AIUI The outdoor show is targeted at a wider audience who, the demographics indicate, are likely to be attracted to diving. I guess BSAC could have overriden the Dive contract and complained about the assosciation with a competeing show. However the Outdoor show will have provided a longer term marketing benefit to BSAC. As you say, membership figures have fallen in recent years, so is it really surprising that BSAC are looking outside the traditional channels to recruit members. The value of associating the BSAC name with the Outdoor show is unknown, a speculative investment perhaps. But to say that BSAC lost revenue is a grossly simplistic short-term view.

The commercial reality is that suppliers can occassionaly place their clients in awkward positions. Unless such a position is immediately threatening, the sensible course of action is to make a note and bring it up when the contract is renegotiated. Similarly, clients that continually meddle in the running of their suppliers business, by overriding contracts, are generally rewarded by increased cost.

:=Please try and get some perspective Dave, OK, there's another dive show organiser around, it's called competition, something that generally, in the long term, acts in the interest of the consumer - in other words, ordinary divers.

Whilst I don't care whether there are one, two or no dive shows at all, I wouldn't agree that having more of them is necessarily in the interests of divers.

You may have misunderstood the purpose of a trade show. Primarily a trade show is a marketing and advertising exercise for the exhibitors. The shows attractions are staged in order to provide an audience for the exhibitors. A good show leaves exhibitors and audience feeling they got value for money.

What most people want from the shows are cheap equipment and bargain holidays. There is arguably more competition (and thus cheaper prices) having all the suppliers within one show not spread across two.

Again you are making a one sided, simplistic, hence flawed assessment. The cheap equipment available at the show is a result of loss leading by suppliers. There are a number of reasons to loss lead but it is mainly a method of marketing. Customers feel they have recieved a benefit over and above what they have actually bought, so reccomend and return to the supplier for purchases which include a profit element. Loss leading is fine as long as you can afford to make the investmentnit requires.

For some years exhibitors have been drifting away from LIDS because the cost of competitive loss leading, can not be reconciled with the benefit it returns. In the case of Northern Diver and Suunto it appears they decided that exhibiting at the Outdoor show serves their interest more than LIDS. Suunto have an interest in the wider outdoor sports market. I guess geography was part of the Northern Diver decision.

I would judge that the real own goal was made by the show organisers who allowed the dates to clash. It is hard enough to be commercially viable when supply outstrips demand. When the decision was made to hold the shows on the same dates, the show organisers forced a decision onto their clients (the exhibitors), which would likely result in a reduction of revenue for the organisers, a reduction in audience for the exhibitors and a reduction in benefit to the audience. To go out of your way to impose such a situation is a commercially dangerous game.

So your implication that all competition will benefit the consumer doesn't really hold water.

Neither does seeking an ever decreasing profit margin. It makes it difficult for startups to establish themselves and forces minor players out of business. A lack of diversity in the market is generally against the longer term interest of consumers. Unfortunately the majority of people can not see further than the bottom line or think further ahead than the next pay packet.

Just look at the railways.

I am not sure what you could learn much from the railways that would apply here. One set of tracks - where is the competition?

What should you be doing?
Firstly, given the recent history of the organisation, you need to be more transparent about where BSAC gets its money from and where its spent. Your arrogant refusal to give information about these matters only serves to deepend suspicions about the organisation.

You see it as arrogant, I see it as professional. Releasing revenue information to your suppliers and competitors is a dubious practice. Not only is it unethical, it usually damages your business.

JB has also provided a wonderful example of why finances are not discussed in public. Sure 60K (which I assume is gross) sounds like a lot of money, something we would all like to see in our pay packet. In perspective how much is it? Around ?1.50 per member.

What would it cost to buy the advertising in the various specialist magazines which would be required to reach the audience that the Outdoor show attracted...possibly more than 60K. Targetted advertising is damn expensive. I certainly would not turn my nose up to the cost of a full page ad in Diver - seems a lot of money for ink and paper! I expect JB could defend the cost though.

I no more want BSAC to discuss finances in public than I want to hear company turnover discussed in front a work force. The resentment that it causes is only ever damaging...Because most people can not see further than the bottom line and their next pay packet. Of course most people do not run successful bussiness either.

BSAC members who are concerned about the financial position can of course stand for council and be privvy to the figures in an informed environment. As it is, current council have taken BSAC from teetering on the edge of bankruptcy to a postion stable enough for limited speculation. That is no small feat and has no doubt required the sort of financial control which costs a lot more than may have been lost at a dive show. As members, we got those services for free and so we can still make the choice as to whether BSAC provide value for the subscription cost. I have my complaints about BSAC but financial control is not one of them.

Secondly, the magazine that is contracted by BSAC should not be trying working directly against the organisation's interests.

It didn't. If Dive went up against anything it was a head on clash with a direct competitor. BSAC and the rest of the diving industry are merely collateral damage. BSAC came off better than most as it was associated with both shows.

The fact is that in 'the real world' magazines have contracts with advertisers and supporting organisations that insist they do not act against those interests. Go and ask any of the major publishers and you'll find out.

Quite possibly it is in BSACs interest to be associated with diving in general rather than the individual battles which go on within the arena. Certainly I believe the reversal in membership numbers will come when BSAC can appeal to all divers, whether they happened to be trained by PADI, TDI, NAUI etc.

The future is most likely co-existance, that is what the more successful branches are starting to realise. Divers are divers and a club which focuses on that commonality has every chance of success. Unfortunately diving is a very conservative sport and the transition is going to take a while, but it is already going on.

To co-exist successfully, means keeping out of the individual fights. If your going to take sides in the brawl you will disenfranchise the supporters of the winner or loser. Alternatively you can sell T-Shirts and plasters to everyone! So unless Dive start publishing headlines which directly threaten BSAC, there would appear little to gain in trying to bias the magazine. At some point the contract will be re-negotiated and any issues that have arisen will be discussed by both sides. Very similar to discussing minor misdemeanours with an employee during annual appraisal.

But ultimately, I really don't care. I gave up caring about BSAC long ago.

So Dave, what exactly are you doing here? I very much doubt you thought you were doing us a favour by bringing this to our attention. Do you have some sort of vested interest or is this purely malicious disruption?

[Steve Walker]

Think the 7 p's are in forced with most divers.

Andy

Seven ? I know a few variations on the six P's eg "Prior Preparation Prevents P*** Poor Performance", what's the seventh P ?
Cheers
Steve W

[Steve Walker]

And for many the point of dive shows is to buy kit.



speaking of which, how's it going with the new suit ? Tried it out yet?
Cheers
Steve

[Lynn Jackson]

speaking of which, how's it going with the new suit ? Tried it out yet?
Cheers
Steve


Ooohhh yes! I can get into it now and it's lovely, only slight prob is that it's a tad to long in the leg - but sparky tape has solved the problem temporarily till I get the legs shortened... :-)

[iainmsmith]

:=
:=Think the 7 p's are in forced with most divers.
:=
:=Andy

Seven ? I know a few variations on the six P's eg "Prior Preparation Prevents P*** Poor Performance", what's the seventh P ?

Planning.

As in, "Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents P--- Poor Performance."

[Matt]

The 7 Ps;
'Pretty'
Poor
Planning
Prevents
'Pretty'
Poor
Performance

[tucker]

I do not know exactly what BSAC gets as its share from LIDS but I would be very happy to exchange it for what I am paid to work all year for Diver Mag.!!!


John, You get paid to go diving and write about it in a magazine. So you get paid to do what you love. Perhaps you not so hard done by after all. Im sure that if you would like to exchange pay with BSAC Im sure their are hundreds who'd swop jobs with you.
!

[tucker]

Keith,

BSAC promotes themselves as a CLUB therefore shouldnt the members be privy to ALL financial aspect as surely it is the
members money keeping the CLUb running. This disclosure of finances has to happen at CLUB branch level so....

Could you imagine a branch chairman saying we are putting up our subs by ?50 per year but we cant tell you why cos its sensative.

[tucker]

You can't get a car there (I have no intention of paying the congestion charge on top of exorbitant car park charges) andI don't fancy carry my purchases on the Tube/train. And Brum is much closer.

No congestion charge on Weekends, but a hefty car park Fee

[tucker]

Did you buy a lift? LOL

Tucker
DagSac, I have emails you before with good luck messages and I'll be diving with you later this year

[John Bantin]

So, did anyone actually go to the Go Diving show in Birmingham and how did it compare to LIDS ?

[Andy Nye]

OHHHHHHHH your that TUCKER :-)

Was trying to get hold off you the other week, but seems your AOL account isn't working.

Now, the lift has been designed by a Swiss firm ( 8v Compressor filling a small bottle to use lift with AIR and hydrolics to run from the 12v system, will lift 1 & 1/2 ton ), sounds like it could be here and fitted in August, as it takes 2 & 1/2 days to do.

So while they are doing that, i can have a survey done ;-) fit a MAGGIE and side scan, hopefully , having both legs , fingers and eyes crossed.

Plus just getting the money together for a good DSC and Dgps thats really good ;-) .

Andy

[Matt]

BSAC promotes themselves as a CLUB therefore shouldnt the members be privy to ALL financial aspect as surely it is the
members money keeping the CLUb running.

"BSAC members who are concerned about the financial position can of course stand for council and be privvy to the figures in an informed environment."

As a BSAC member you have an opportunity to be part of the process. What you can't do is cherry pick the individual decisions. Financial decision don't make sense unless you can see the complete picture.

Could you imagine a branch chairman saying we are putting up our subs by ?50 per year but we cant tell you why cos its sensative.

Well I am a branch chairman. If any memebr has an issue with the finances the place to raise them is our AGM. I know our treasurer just loves that particular event ;-)

I am ususally prepared to spend a bit of time with concerned individuals to explain why the committee made a particular decision. However I have 100 members to look after not 38,000

Regards
Matt

[alison boler]

I only went to the LIDS show so can't help on a comparison with the other one. I thought that the show itself was as per normal - I certainly had a job to get around it in a day - but that attendance was less than in previous years. That may just have been my perception - not privy to attendance numbers, but it just seemed to be much less of a crush, particularly on Sunday which is traditionally a busy day.
For what it's worth, although Excel is a bit of a pain to get to, I think its a fab venue, far better than either Earls Court or Birmingham in terms of facilities such as range of eateries. London shows in general are more of a pain for those of us who don't live in the capital, so maybe that's why its less popular than the Birmingham show.

Also, are we moving later in the year? I thought the LIDS show used to be in the first half of March - generally mid at the latest, whilst this year it was the last weekend of - maybe people are already taking to the water at this point. My advice would be to move it back if possible to a weekend where "going diving" isn't such an attractive alternative. My comment also applies to DOC dates which seem to have moved from mid/late November to December where it conflicts with various Xmas dos deterring many from making the trip.

Allie

[tucker]

"BSAC members who are concerned about the financial position can of course stand for council and be privvy to the figures in an informed environment."

NO, please dont start that youve got to join or join that, we are paying members we should be told about our clubs finances. Some people just do not have the time that others do to be on the coucil and thats not a good excuse to keep them in the dark.

Well I am a branch chairman. If any memebr has an issue with the finances the place to raise them is our AGM. I know our treasurer just loves that particular event ;-)

And Im sure that if you as your Chairman was asked why have you put our subs up by ?50 you would tell them why yes? well then why the secracy on BSACs part?


38,000 mailshots within Dive mag. Bobs your uncle and Fanny's your aunt


Regards
Tuck

[Tom Brookes]

I stood at the Dive shows for 2 years (selling Fleeces).

The basics of standing or not standing are normally down to a couple of things.

Small Company
1)Will you make enough profit after all costs to make it worth while.

Large company
1) will we make enough profit after costs to make it worth while.
2) If answer to question 1) is no, will the company gain enough publicity etc from the show to make it worth while.

Now I am not to sure what the costs are now but when I stood it was ?153 per sq Metre of floor space to stand at the show, then you have got to have staff min of 2 or three for small stand & people like northern diver probly have 20 staff, then you have got at least 2 nights accomadation per person plus food, Then you have to build your stand.

When I stood we had a small stand aprox 4m x 2m and the costs to stand were about ?2800 ish.
The items we were selling had a profit on them of about ?11 each so we had to sell about 260 items just to break even.
I would think that some of these big stands must cost them ?50 to ?150k to stand & then every customer wants loads of discounts they probly do not make that much out of the show.

So I would think that even the big boys can only spend a certain amount of money on shows etc & to do the extra show something has to go.

[Matt]

:="BSAC members who are concerned about the financial position can of course stand for council and be privvy to the figures in an informed environment."

NO, please dont start that youve got to join or join that, we are paying members we should be told about our clubs finances.

You are told. The statement of accounts is published each year and mailed out with Dive. Actually I like freedom of information. Unfortunately though, few people can look at an organisations finances without getting upset. They can't run them any better but they still get upset

Some people just do not have the time that others do to be on the coucil and thats not a good excuse to keep them in the dark.

My point is, if you do not have the time to look at the complete picture, you should not be privvy to isolated detail. You can't make a valid financial judgement without knowing what the exact picture is. .

And Im sure that if you as your Chairman was asked why have you put our subs up by ?50 you would tell them why yes? well then why the secracy on BSACs part?

If BSAC were to raise subs by 50 quid without explanation I would have something to say at the AGM. BSAC have not raised subs by 50 quid though have they?

I did in fact have to raise our branch subs by around 60% two years ago. Despite publicising the hike for 6 months prior, we still had lots of people at our AGM asking the same questions that we had already answered. We patiently explained the decision and the reasons we reached it and the vast majority of the branch supported the decision. That's fine it was a big decision, it deserved that level of explanation. But to go through the same process for every decision simply is not reasonable.

38,000 mailshots within Dive mag. Bobs your uncle and Fanny's your aunt

Great, we end up with around 37,000 people argueing that they should be paying less.

Let me put this another way. What is it you would like to know? Maybe you can compile a list of everything you wish to see. For instance, would you like to see a breakdown of paperclip costs. How about the brand of biscuits. Or maybe a copy of every invoice and PO that goes through the books. We can then debate your list and leave HQ to get on with running the show.

Just my 43 quids worth.

Regards
Matt