Rock Boots

[Owen Wichard]

Evening All,

Okay I have socks on my drysuit, with wetsuit boots.

My problem is I require 5KG's of ankle weights = 3 sets. As every time reach bottom would invert but not ascend.(these my first two open dives as trainee)

So does any one know why I can get size 15 rock boots?

As feel if able to tie up pair of boot's instead of side zipping current boots, would cure or reduce air to the socks. Or am I wrong? as they not to big and the suit fits okay.

Thanks Owen

[Gareth]

Evening All,

Okay I have socks on my drysuit, with wetsuit boots.

My problem is I require 5KG's of ankle weights = 3 sets. As every time reach bottom would invert but not ascend.(these my first two open dives as trainee)

So does any one know why I can get size 15 rock boots?

As feel if able to tie up pair of boot's instead of side zipping current boots, would cure or reduce air to the socks. Or am I wrong? as they not to big and the suit fits okay.

Thanks Owen


Owen

First off you should be able to get rock boots, or something similar in size 15.

Thats the good news. I am certain however that this won't help.

5kgs is equivelent to 5 litres of air. i.e. to lift 5kgs you need to fill a 5 litre lift bag. I am pretty certain that you don't have 5 litres of air migrating to your boots!

The first issue is to ensure you are correctly weighted, 99% of the time inversion issues relate to excessive weighting, thus to much air migrating around the drysuit.
The second issue is correct trim. Simply put, if you have all the weight behind your head you will be head down (feet up). If you put all the weight at your ankels you will be head up (feet down). Moving weight adjusts trim, don't forget that the cylinder is a weight.
However the cylinder also effects your position on the surface in an inflated BC. If you lower the cylinder it will tip you back, if you lift it, it will tip you face down.

I strongly suggest you do a weight check, prior to doing anything else. Ask your instructor to help you. When you try to descend, cross your ankels, and breath out. Most new divers fin (up) when they try to descend & take a deep breath that they then hold, funnily enough, they normally need to add weight to make them descend!

Hope that helps

Gareth

[Owen Wichard]

Owen

First off you should be able to get rock boots, or something similar in size 15.

Thats the good news. I am certain however that this won't help.

5kgs is equivelent to 5 litres of air. i.e. to lift 5kgs you need to fill a 5 litre lift bag. I am pretty certain that you don't have 5 litres of air migrating to your boots!

The first issue is to ensure you are correctly weighted, 99% of the time inversion issues relate to excessive weighting, thus to much air migrating around the drysuit.
The second issue is correct trim. Simply put, if you have all the weight behind your head you will be head down (feet up). If you put all the weight at your ankels you will be head up (feet down). Moving weight adjusts trim, don't forget that the cylinder is a weight.
However the cylinder also effects your position on the surface in an inflated BC. If you lower the cylinder it will tip you back, if you lift it, it will tip you face down.

I strongly suggest you do a weight check, prior to doing anything else. Ask your instructor to help you. When you try to descend, cross your ankels, and breath out. Most new divers fin (up) when they try to descend & take a deep breath that they then hold, funnily enough, they normally need to add weight to make them descend!

Hope that helps

Gareth

Hi Gareth,

Thanks for the advice, will do weight check when can got on next club dive. Be good to ditch some ankle weights and some of the 20KG's in the BC pouches

Thanks again Owen

[Ed Howarth]

Owen, Hi.

5 kg plus 20 kg. Wow. !!

I find fascinating the different weightings that divers need. I'm not saying that you are overweighted, well not necessarily, so don't take this as a criticism, but I am curious as to what makes you so buoyant.

I've known people who dive in the sea with drysuit on a single 12 litre without a weightbelt. They really struggle in the pool as they have oodles of air in the stab jacket and buoyancy is a pig. You sometimes can't tell just by looking at them. It's fascinating.

When you were in the pool with no suit and a single 12, what weight did you NEED on your belt?

Now you are in open water, what suit do you use and what undersuit? What height and build are you?

Ed

[Phil Laughton]

Hi Owen,
With all that amount of ballast you say you need, I must ask if you are useing your suit for bouyancy control and pumping a lot of air into it, and as Gareth has said this would be migrating to your legs when you invert.

Phil

[Owen Wichard]

Hi All

In the pool I use 8 Kg's 2 x 1KG block in the rear trim pockets and 2 x 6Kg lead shot in my BC weight pouches no belt. Wearing shorts and rash vest, and can achieve natural buoyancy.

Open water I am using Otter 4/5 mm neoprene drysuit, with fourth element Arctic leggings and top. weight 2 x 2KG's in trim pockets 8KG's in weight pouches. Then 2 x 1KG's ankle weight and 1 set of 0,5 KG ankle weight

The drysuit valve was fully open, and inserting air to take squeeze off, and using my seaquest pro BCd for buoyancy control


Thanks all Owen

[ChristianG]

Hi Owen,

Have a look at this picture (http://forum.divernet.com/album.php?albumid=2&pictureid=43), even though it's :eek: one of me.

If you look carefully you will see that I'm not wearing a BC of any type. Now trust me when I say that the tank on my back is aluminium, which floats when it's empty, that the pony you can see the bottom of at my left shoulder is also aluminium, that I am not using weights of any type and that the suit I am wearing is a skin suit, ie not made of neoprene.

Also note that I am floating neutrally in the water in spite of a decidedly heavy camera.

Us hooman beans are neutral in the water, we can quite easily float with a lungful of air and (just) sink with all air expelled from our lungs. Yes, in extreme circumstances such as significant obesity this may not be the case but if you're halfway "normal", and I suspect you are, such considerations do not enter the scheme of things.

Every fibre of my being tells me that you are experiencing the classic symptoms of being significantly overweighted particularly because you are also likely to be using a steel tank which actually is, or should be, part of your weight - steel tanks don't float when empty.

[Lanny]

Evening All,

Okay I have socks on my drysuit, with wetsuit boots.

My problem is I require 5KG's of ankle weights = 3 sets. As every time reach bottom would invert but not ascend.(these my first two open dives as trainee)

So does any one know why I can get size 15 rock boots?

As feel if able to tie up pair of boot's instead of side zipping current boots, would cure or reduce air to the socks. Or am I wrong? as they not to big and the suit fits okay.

Thanks Owen

Hi Owen,

Have you tried heavier fins such as Jet Fins or (probably more appropriately with size 15 feet) Turtle Fins. These are heavier than flimsy plastic fins and should help your weighting. You could try gaiters if your drysuit lower legs are especially baggy

You will also find that you need less weight as you become more experienced and relax.

You may be able to get some cheaper rock boots here:

http://www.predator-wetsuits.co.uk/

Regards,

Lanny

[Gareth]

Hi Owen,

Have you tried heavier fins such as Jet Fins or (probably more appropriately with size 15 feet) Turtle Fins. These are heavier than flimsy plastic fins and should help your weighting. You could try gaiters if your drysuit lower legs are especially baggy

You will also find that you need less weight as you become more experienced and relax.

You may be able to get some cheaper rock boots here:

http://www.predator-wetsuits.co.uk/

Regards,

Lanny

Lanny

I don't think I would advise adding any more weight!

Owen, when you swim normally can you sink & duckdive?

Remember, if you want to test for Neutral bouyancy;-
1. With a near empty cylinder (say 50bar).
2. Empty all bouyancy sources (BC & Drysuit).
3. Breath OUT, hard (keep the regulator in your mouth).
4. You want to sink so that your eyes are at or Just under the surface, breath in & your head should break the surface.
5. When, & only when you have achieved this add 2lb (1kg) of weight (thats equivent to removing 1 litre of air).
You should now sink when you breath out, now as you breath in you should be able to control your bouyancy on your breathing ONLY.

6. How is your breathing now, sitting at the computer. It should be relaxed, shallow & regular. You should be able to take a deep breath in.
7. To test you are truely neutral you need to repeat the breathing you have now at the computer screen, in the water. When you are on the surface, breathing out will take your head (or at least your eyes) below the surface, breathing in will bring your mouth back out of the water. Once you are neutral you only need to add weight to the equivelent of a lung full of air at the most so 1kg will suffice.

If you have 'qualified' to move to openwater, then you should be safe in the pool. If you are lucky enough to have a regular pool night, try the above in the pool (its warmer & far more comfortable than open water at the moment:)).

Once you think you've got it right (the weight). Practice using your breathing in the shallow end to float just off the bottom i.e. without adding air to the bc, you need to start by breathing out hard, & then keep your breating even & shallow, a deep breath in should bring you back to the surface, a deep breath out hold it.....hold it.....breath in a small amount, shallow breathing & ...float. If you are using your BC to bring yourself back to the surface, then you are still to heavy.
Once you can do this in the shallow end, move to the deep end, you should now need to use the BC.

Try this over a few weeks at the pool in trunks a Tee shirt & a scuba set. Ideally, you want to get to know how it 'feels' to be correctly weighted & neutral.

There are all sorts of bouyancy exercises you can do in the pool, pick a tile on the wall put your finger onit then adjust your bouyancy so you are flat in the water with your finger resting on the tile.
Swim around the pool resting your finger at this height.
When you get to one side, look across the pool, pick out a tile at the same height, swim across the pool looking at this tile.
With each of the exercsies (& there are more) once you have adjusted your bouyancy that is it, no fiddling, just use your breathing.

If you have pool time in your branch, USE IT, the more time you spend in the water the better you will get, the more comfortable you will feel. At this time of year open water is a little chilly, we tend not to concentrate as well when we are cold. So as much as possible perfect skills in the pool, where you are warm & comfortable. It isn't the same because you are not wearing the bulky kit to keep you warm, but it does help.
Exercises like mask clearing regulator retrievel etc, (in fact everything you have spent the last few weeks learning,) do them all again but with GLOOVES & HOOD. Its different with glooves, practice until its second nature, the open water dives will be easier, you will spend less time getting cold whilst you perfect the skill in open water.

Gareth

[MattS]

Open water I am using Otter 4/5 mm neoprene drysuit, with fourth element Arctic leggings and top. weight 2 x 2KG's in trim pockets 8KG's in weight pouches. Then 2 x 1KG's ankle weight and 1 set of 0,5 KG ankle weightTwo open water dives is not enough to be reaching conclusions. Unless you are confusing Lbs for Kg, it looks like your weighting needs urgent attention.

As Gareth points out, you must to relax, you must breathe out fully and you must stay as motionless as possible, to descend. It will take a few seconds to descend and you should try not to breathe in until your head is fully covered by water. The effort of kitting up and entering the water may cause you to be breathing heavily. Have a little pause between kitting up and entering the water to allow your breathing to subside, and another little pause between entering the water and attempting to descend. When you have learnt to do these things, I suspect you may be able to lose nearly half the weight you are currently carrying, although not all at once.

If you have regular access to a pool, you might want to spend some time in there polishing your descent technique, aiming to lose a few Kg. Descents don't just happen on their own. They are a diving technique that you have to learn. Splashing about trying to stay on the surface is a reflex action we all have when we start diving and we all need to train ourselves out of it.

HTH

[Lanny]

Lanny

I don't think I would advise adding any more weight!



Agreed - what I meant, and thought was obvious, was that putting heavier fins on will allow removal of ankle weights.

I also find Jet Fins more powerful, easier to back-fin with and definitely more robust than the multi-couloured plastic crap that most manufacturers are selling. I am still on my first set of Jet Fins, but used to go through a set of plastic fins every 2 years or so.

[Owen Wichard]

Hi All

Thanks for the replies, I am currently using beaver force fins. Will try all the advice and tips next time in the water, to get the weight down.

Thanks again Owen

[Mike Halligan]

Hi Owen,

Have you tried heavier fins such as Jet Fins or (probably more appropriately with size 15 feet) Turtle Fins. These are heavier than flimsy plastic fins and should help your weighting. You could try gaiters if your drysuit lower legs are especially baggy

You will also find that you need less weight as you become more experienced and relax.

You may be able to get some cheaper rock boots here:

http://www.predator-wetsuits.co.uk/

Regards,

Lanny

Owen,

Lanny's probably right, get yourself proper rock boots in preference to booties, that will reduce buoyancy in your feet slightly. However, 3 sets of ankle weights, 4 kg by my calcs 5 by yours is way too much to allow for floaty booties.

On the premise that in the pool without a suit you should need no more than 1kg on a belt, there is then buoyancy inherent in the drysuit to overcome, say 12.5kg and then the sea-water factor 1.5kg. Assuming (always dangerous) that your first OW dives are part of the OD course, then you'd need no inflation of the drysuit as max depth is only 10mtr.

I have to agree with others that the likely cause of your problem is massive overweighting - and this is not at all surprising. You see, we are keen to give you a positive experience on your first OW dive and often fall for the "this'll get him down" solution, rather than faff in the shallows getting it right.

My apologies if I am reading this entirely wrong, but I strongly suspect I am not. Hope this helps,