BSAC CLUB COSTS [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

Edward

10-12-2009, 07:01

Hi,

This question probably is asked many times. What is the average club cost and what does this include?

Hi Tommy,

First off there is no standard Branch therefore there is no standard Branch fee.

Some offer little in the way of assets as they are just a group of friends who dive together. Other Branches may have boats, club-house, SCUBA kets, etc, hence Branch fees can range from around £7 to £200 a year.

If you want to know how your own Branch's fees are made up ask your Committee to explain and/or look at the Branch's Annual Accounts (which all members should get a copy of at the AGM).

Also, have a read of Section 3.6 Branch Finances (http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=2030&sectionTitle=Branch+Officers%27+Handbook+-+Branch+Finances) of the BOH.

Regards

Edward

PeteM

10-12-2009, 07:39

Also, have a read of Section 3.6 Branch Finances (http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=2030&sectionTitle=Branch+Officers%27+Handbook+-+Branch+Finances) of the BOH.

He won't be able to - if he is asking about costs he is 99.9% certain not to be a member, if he is not a member then he will not be able to access the BOH.

Yet another unintended consequence trying to lock things down

bootneck

10-12-2009, 08:33

I can only answer for our one club, newly formed this year.

we decided that on top of the £50.00 bsac subs we would ask for £50.00 as club fees, it was set at this to allow us to build up some funds for pool hirer training materials ect.

On top of this we ask for what ever the price of the training pack would be for a particular grade i.e OD £35.00.

After talking to club members, once the club was set up and training organised we also decided that we would have to charge for the pool on an evenings training as £45.00 per hour we would have depleted any funds raised by the end of a OD course.

Like all clubs we would love to have funds to spare, but look at it as we are amature diving club diving for pleasure and do not need the hassle of worrying constantly about costs.

davebarber

10-12-2009, 10:23

Thurrock 608

We charge £30 per qtr.
Includes weekly pool, free use of training kit/air.

Use of 2 ribs (£10 per day + fuel) one based at Newhaven

Grangewaters £5 per day.

We have use of a club house/bar & training room

Training paks are extra

Ron MacRae

10-12-2009, 12:15

Andover BSAC charge £12 per month, £23 for families.

This pays for -
Use of a pool for an hour every Tuesday night.
Subsidises diving on up to 24 club dives by £18 per head per day.
Lectures & meetings in a nice hired environment every Tuesday.
Cheap/free kit hire.

We charge for Ocean Diver training, to cover kit maint and instructor expenses, but everything later is just the cost of the pack.

N.B. We made a loss in 2009....

Ron.

johnohuk

10-12-2009, 16:38

Chesham Sub Aqua Club ( Based in Amersham, Bucks ;)

Annual Cost is £110 per individual ( excludes BSAC)

All training is at cost Sport/Ocean/DL/Nitrox/O2/FirstAid whatever ...i.e. the BSAC packs + any petrol money for the instructor.

Full sets of kit for trainees only are £30 per month.

Club RIB dives (Out of Newhaven) are £20 per person.

We hire a diving pool and any member is allowed to use it, free of charge from 8.30 to 10pm each Wednesday.

Talks are free but we ask for a donation to the speaker's charity.

Social events are charged at slightly over cost to cover expenses.

We break even (just) each year with a membership of around 40... Subsidised by the RIB dives/try dives/fund raising.. which I know.. without these we would go negative like we did last yr by a few hundred.

We don't have any storage so a compressor is out of the question ;(

The cost doesn't seem to hit us in terms of membership but we are looking at different types of membership such as a student one... like BSAC... to give us a little more flexibility when recruiting younger members.. They don't make up the majority but its nice to have new faces!

www.cheshamsubaqua.com

JohnOH (Membership & Marketing Sec)

MattS

10-12-2009, 17:46

We set up Spinnaker Divers in Portsmouth last year to offer a low stress, low commitment, low overheads, low subs alternative to the other local branches.

We charge £25 pa (excluding BSAC) which includes membership of the angling club where we meet each week. Everything else is charged at the shared cost of participating. No subsidies and no favouritism. We are a small and friendly club and that is how we are trying to keep it. We train, we dive and we have a good time.

Anyone interested feel free to PM.

Edward

11-12-2009, 11:20

Yet another unintended consequence trying to lock things down

There is nothing unintended about the BOH being for members only. In the past SSAC, SSA and independents were using it without contributing to its maintenance or development. If they want a copy they can approach HQ and buy one, (this may sound un-PC) but "why should BSAC fund unlimited advice for the diving community as a whole?" which is aimed specifically at BSAC Branches.

Regards

Edward

Nigel Hewitt

11-12-2009, 11:24

...but "why should BSAC fund unlimited advice for the diving community as a whole?" which is aimed specifically at BSAC Branches.
Because it doesn't actually cost us anything and we're the good guys.

PeteM

11-12-2009, 13:12

There is nothing unintended about the BOH being for members only. In the past SSAC, SSA and independents were using it without contributing to its maintenance or development. If they want a copy they can approach HQ and buy one, (this may sound un-PC) but "why should BSAC fund unlimited advice for the diving community as a whole?" which is aimed specifically at BSAC Branches.

Regards

Edward

Because you felt it necessary to point someone from outside BSAC at it as a point of reference, therefore you must feel it has some use to people outside of BSAC and in this instance not be a problem. Unfortunately that was a waste of time because it is tied down. It has also kept me out when I legitimately needed to get in and did not have my membership number on me and did not have time to get hold of the information from another source.

So we have identified that there is a benefit to some people from it being freely available and a detriment to at least the OP from not being so.

Now lets look at it from the POV of the bad guys from the SAA. In real life how long do you honestly think it is going to take for one of the bad guys to get hold of a full copy of the BOH? I reckon the majority could do it in less than twenty minutes. I could get hold of a full set of SAA teaching materials in about that time.

So we have a system that fails to prevent the bad guys getting hold of our IP but keeps out people that we would like to by able to make use of it. How is that useful to anyone?

You only need to look at the music industry to see how broken your logic is in the twenty-first century

Vic

11-12-2009, 13:43

"why should BSAC fund unlimited advice for the diving community as a whole?" which is aimed specifically at BSAC Branches.

Aside from the points raised elsewhere, because BSAC is the UK Governing Body. This gives us responsibilities to divers outside our own organisation.

Given the immeasurably small additional cost of giving others access to our materials, given the beneficial PR we get from having others display our branding, and given the futility of trying to control access in the way we do, it really is an own-goal...

Vic.

Vic

11-12-2009, 13:49

Because it doesn't actually cost us anything and we're the good guys.

Absolutely true - but it wouldn't matter if it weren't.

We *gain* by others using our materials. BSAC is not the worldwide giant of the diving industry; we are somewhat closer to the brink of irrelevancy. Everyone coming into diving has heard of PADI, but most only find out about BSAC quite a bit later. Having BSAC logos all over documents that people *want* to read gives us much better visibility - and we need that badly.

So even if it cost us a bit to allow other organisations to use the BIOH - that would be money well spent. Even if we weren't the good guys - this sort of exposure is good for us, so it would still be the sort of thing we should be doing.

The fact that is is also free and we are the good guys is reason enough of itself - but not actually necessary.

Vic.

Vic

11-12-2009, 13:53

Now lets look at it from the POV of the bad guys from the SAA. In real life how long do you honestly think it is going to take for one of the bad guys to get hold of a full copy of the BOH? I reckon the majority could do it in less than twenty minutes.

Less than sixty seconds. Even Google has links to full versions readily downloadable...

Locking the BOH behind this sort of paywall is no protection whatsoever.

Vic.

Edward

11-12-2009, 13:55

Because you felt it necessary to point someone from outside BSAC at it as a point of reference, therefore you must feel it has some use to people outside of BSAC and in this instance not be a problem. Unfortunately that was a waste of time because it is tied down. It has also kept me out when I legitimately needed to get in and did not have my membership number on me and did not have time to get hold of the information from another source.

I’m sorry my crystal ball isn’t as good as yours, but how do you know the individual isn’t a BSAC member?

So we have identified that there is a benefit to some people from it being freely available and a detriment to at least the OP from not being so.

Your assumption, not mine.

Now lets look at it from the POV of the bad guys from the SAA. In real life how long do you honestly think it is going to take for one of the bad guys to get hold of a full copy of the BOH? I reckon the majority could do it in less than twenty minutes. I could get hold of a full set of SAA teaching materials in about that time.

So we have a system that fails to prevent the bad guys getting hold of our IP but keeps out people that we would like to by able to make use of it. How is that useful to anyone?

Its got nothing to do with good/bad (that’s your assumption), the BSAC Branch Officers’ Handbook is for BSAC Branches and members.

You only need to look at the music industry to see how broken your logic is in the twenty-first century

My future son-in-law is in the music industry I see first hand what the impact of downloading music without the payment of Royalty fees has. For BSAC, Council could decide to provide all BSAC material free and unrestricted, but its development still has to be paid for – that’s OK the members will fund through higher BSAC subscriptions. The idea of everything being free over the Internet is, IMHO, wrong.

Regards

Edward

Vic

11-12-2009, 14:18

My future son-in-law is in the music industry I see first hand what the impact of downloading music without the payment of Royalty fees has.

I doubt that. For a start, that would be second-hand...

But to more substantive issues: a recent Ipsos Mori poll showed that people illegally downloading music are actually the ones paying for it - it would appear that it is the illegal downloads that stimulate interest (because, let's face it, the banality of the current factory-produced moise isn't going to).

Whilst I do not condone copyright infringement under any circumstances (as you can see from what I had to do with the bsac.org CMS), it is clear that the music industry's assertion that every copy downloaded is a sale lost is cleary bogus; the SABIP report, for example, claimed an annual cost of £12 billion - that's roughly £200 for every man, woman, and child in the country. Count the number of people in your household and multiply by £200 - is there really that much spare cash around that could be funnelled to the music industry? Can everyone in your street say the same?

None of this will stop the plutocrats currently getting legislation ramrodded through, of course. But suing your own customers is always a mistake; all this fury from the music industry will only accelerate its own demise - but at what cost to civil liberties along the way?

For BSAC, Council could decide to provide all BSAC material free and unrestricted, but its development still has to be paid for – that’s OK the members will fund through higher BSAC subscriptions.

Why should this mean higher subscriptions? The cost does not go up just because more people read it. Internet publishing isn't like dead-tree publishing; we don't pay by the copy unless we have signed up to some silly contractual terms.

We pay for the development. Increasing the number of people using our materials does not increase that development cost. Thus subscriptions need not increase unless we are haemorrhaging members - and if other organisations getting a look at our materials does that, then we have more fundamental problems to sort out first.

The idea of everything being free over the Internet is, IMHO, wrong.

There's no need for *everything* to be free - but the idea that anything that has cost money to produce cannot be free is simply counterproductive; people - potential customers - will go elsewhere. We lose.

Vic.

PeteM

11-12-2009, 14:23

I’m sorry my crystal ball isn’t as good as yours, but how do you know the individual isn’t a BSAC member?

Because a BSAC member would 99.9% certain know that every branch is not going to charge the same.

Your assumption, not mine.

I've identified a definite case where I could not get access easily which ended up being a detriment to my branch and to a degree to BSAC as a whole.

Its got nothing to do with good/bad (that’s your assumption), the BSAC Branch Officers’ Handbook is for BSAC Branches and members.

You identified that you wanted to keep the SAA people out. Bad guys is a fairly standard IT industry term for those you are trying to restrict in some way

My future son-in-law is in the music industry I see first hand what the impact of downloading music without the payment of Royalty fees has. For BSAC, Council could decide to provide all BSAC material free and unrestricted, but its development still has to be paid for – that’s OK the members will fund through higher BSAC subscriptions. The idea of everything being free over the Internet is, IMHO, wrong.

Yep the music industry has killed the cash cow by trying to tie everything down, did not work for them, will not work for us.

Development cost is identical whether we tie things down or not, actually it is HIGHER if we tie it down because there is a cost implication of tying it down. The marginal cost of distribution to each bad guy is immeasurably small. So I have no idea where you get the idea that this would lead to higher BSAC subscriptions.

Adrian Kelland

11-12-2009, 19:58

There is nothing unintended about the BOH being for members only. In the past SSAC, SSA and independents were using it without contributing to its maintenance or development. If they want a copy they can approach HQ and buy one, (this may sound un-PC) but "why should BSAC fund unlimited advice for the diving community as a whole?" which is aimed specifically at BSAC Branches.

Regards

Edward Because it wasn't. However it would have been an unintended bonus and a responsible thing for a national governing body to do.

At the DOC it was mentioned that some of the expedition reports were in the members only section. How daft is that? Why on earth would you place what could be a great advert to non-members in a restricted area? It can't be searched for by Google etc, the rest of the world will hardly know the expeditions took place.

The Ordnance Survey and Post Office have been trying to use this kind of argument for years. Apparently Tax Payers don't pay for the OS or PO, so they can't have the data. Completely missing the point of all the added extra benefit UK plc would have got from having wider use of a high quality dataset (planning apps, where is 'whatever' tools, even data based on a map background). The PO has threatened some free, useful websites. So instead others have been developed, freely and commercially in competition. OS is losing market share. Some of the data may now be released for free, but we don't yet know the details of that and thus how useful it may be.

Hiding good quality information away will also lead to some using poor quality information or others setting up in competition. So potentially some poorly trained divers (what will the governing bodies do?) or potential members going elsewhere. Which is already easy enough.

Can anybody put a value on the paper copies that BSAC was never going to sell in the first place? I would bet a fiver that BSAC has lost more in unsold print runs. Anyone want a copy of "The Club"? Anyone?

How much harder will the BSAC make it for non-members to find good reasons to join BSAC I wonder? On the one hand branches are supposed to be more welcoming, yet we have a website that is anything but.

Adrian

Mike Halligan

11-12-2009, 20:23

There is nothing unintended about the BOH being for members only. In the past SSAC, SSA and independents were using it without contributing to its maintenance or development. If they want a copy they can approach HQ and buy one, (this may sound un-PC) but "why should BSAC fund unlimited advice for the diving community as a whole?" which is aimed specifically at BSAC Branches.

Regards

Edward

Edward,

I appreciate the immense voluntary effort that is sunk into the BOH, but I fear we fail to recognise that it is then sunk, i.e. irretrievable. Once that effort has been made we have a resource, the BOH, but nothing more. Our USP is collaboration and mutual support. We claim to be the UK NGB for underwater swimming. If we mean what we say, I believe we must challenge robustly every occasion we think of keeping something to ourselves. :o

In the past, the BOH was sold to members and we had to be absolutely desperate before we'd buy a copy. This led to Branches having out-of-date BOHs, preventing full information of Officers. Now, it is accessible to members through our web-site and we pay for our own paper/ink if we want hard copy. Seems fair to me.

However, the justification for denying other divers the benefit of our institutional knowledge, skill and experience put together with well-informed judgement strikes me as needlessly insular and counter-productive. How does a diver find out how we (should) organise ourselves when the BOH mentioned widely across BSAC resources is hidden to him? What does he think of us when this happens? (Blazers, cravats, moustaches necking pink gins in our psuedo ward-rooms, perhaps?) :mad:

R.Burgess

11-12-2009, 22:23

Our club is more than nation wide, my guesses and my experiences of dive clubs is a snapshot of a small area where most clubs are not BSAC. Perhaps its all the same, or like a blind man describing one aspect of an elephant.
The average branch is based at a local swimming pool, where they have a dive equipment storage facility. Many of them have a rib and a limited amount of training equipment. Subs vary quite a bit but its about local costs and whats included, its not profit. The average branch tends to include pool rental and club equipmdent servicing cost in the subs. My local town pool charges £67 an hour for pool time the dive branch subs there was £12.50 a month + £48 a year central. Some clubs in other towns pay less for their pool and charge less. I'd guess average branch subs would be the same as the annual central subs. Its hard some branch subs can also include air fills and boat costs and a club house.
The distribution of subs is often a cause for contention. Silly really, but thats us.

I think most branches are best suited for intermediate training and development.
Fact or fiction: The average new member does not renew, or is often thought of that way. The most active experienced branch members usually spend a lot more than their subs self funding themselves as volunteers to give new members training. The average branch spends a large proportion of its subs providing and maintaining the training infrastructure. :confused: It's passion not logic. At times we meet new people with great aptitude and no passion and others with passion and little aptitude. Those that love diving renew.

Some experienced divers break away and join direct or free branches. Its still passion not logic. :D

bootneck

12-12-2009, 09:35

The BOH has been an invaluable resource whilst we have been forming a new BSAC club and as such, I would like to think that, as we are the NGB we should have with the BOH, set an example to other organisation and make it available to them as a down load.

In that way we have had an impact on safe and effective management of a diving club, what ever organisation.

I have thought for quite a while that whilst we are a amature diving club we getting to much into the "corporate" mind set.

As for cost, this first year and first years training as other have said before, has taken most of our subs, not that I object to the cost of the packs and membership cost as I think that we do get value for money from our training material.

I honestly do not know if BSAC does this, but would it not be a idea, if we are the NGB and promoting club diving in the UK for BSAC to petition for cheaper pool access to local authority pools therefore making training cheaper for clubs.

I know the council has limited time and put lot of time in, but this would be something to benefit clubs directly and where for some it really matters the pocket.

paul_c

12-12-2009, 14:08

to the OP

my old uni club was 50 BSAC fees, plus 30 a term, and 30 flat fee, this covered club fees, Union insurance and pool fees (ever other week)
any dives were on top but we could get a fill from the compressor once a week, air only not O2 clean.

so £120 club fees a year for nothing much realy.

my new club, torbay BSAC chargers £250 plus Bsac fees for

unlimited hard boat diving, ive dived 4 times a week over the summer
unlimited any time access fills inc o2 clean
access to the Rib, for a nominal fee to cover the fuel
access if required to club kit
a lockup room where in my kit lives

Gasgow

13-12-2009, 16:44

Well guys,

As Ive said in several posts in the past I'm a Padi DM, always dove Padi as my 'Open Water' was a gift after a try dive a few years back in Egypt.

I am a bit obsessive with anything I get involved in and diving is no exception, so whatever organisation if there is a publication, web site or forum and it involves diving, I'll read and it and try to learn from it.

I'm now at the stage in my diving life where I need more than I get from Padi, I want regular involvment with a group of like minded divers, I want to get wet! in a pool, a quarry, the sea - 'Whatever'

I have read and been involved with this forum for about 18months and have to say I've have mixed reaction (as you would expect from any forum) and whilst I always thought of BSAC as too traditional and maybe a bit clicky, I'm begining to change my opinion greatly.

BSAC should be (IMO) try to be the leaders, the main agency, the industry standard, the governing body in the UK, and to do that they must be more commercial, a bit more approachable and in some cases a bit more encouraging.

Probably a bit more PADI (I'm gonna get it for that comment)

For me and, I would imagine a lot of new divers, BSAC is an unknown but in time is where you end up wanting to be.

If I want to learn to dive or continue my development I can walk into hundereds of dive shops give them some money and just do it. The Padi way works and makes money.

I still crave for club senario, you don't get this from Padi, but I'm still hesitant to call the local BSAC clubs because I'm Padi trained and may BSAC divers I've met think that means your sub-standard.

What I'm trying to get to is that BSAC has some great members, it is very encouraging to see that its members are looking at things in a different light, BSAC has to be more open, it has to get its name out there, it has to be accessable and approachable.

allen

13-12-2009, 17:20

Well guys,

As Ive said in several posts in the past I'm a Padi DM, always dove Padi as my 'Open Water' was a gift after a try dive a few years back in Egypt.

I still crave for club senario, you don't get this from Padi, but I'm still hesitant to call the local BSAC clubs because I'm Padi trained and may BSAC divers I've met think that means your sub-standard.

What I'm trying to get to is that BSAC has some great members, it is very encouraging to see that its members are looking at things in a different light, BSAC has to be more open, it has to get its name out there, it has to be accessable and approachable.

I think you might find your local clubs more accommodating than you expect - certainly mine (Totnes) gets far more new members from PADI each year than we train BSAC Ocean Divers, and a good proportion (at least 25% I would think) of the current membership did their first dive with a PADI centre.

Gasgow

13-12-2009, 17:48

I think you might find your local clubs more accommodating than you expect - certainly mine (Totnes) gets far more new members from PADI each year than we train BSAC Ocean Divers, and a good proportion (at least 25% I would think) of the current membership did their first dive with a PADI centre.

I live in Torquay, and work in Exeter. I'll look you up.
As I said I want to be in a club, and think that most divers eventually get to that stage. What I was saying is that in the past BSAC has been a bit of a unknown and unless you really want it its a scary and worrying prospect to go from a Padi system to BSAC.

May be you can help with a few questions? (Please)

If I move across to BSAC, where do i stand on crossover from Padi DM?
My enjoyment in diving comes from learning an I really want to teach, is there any chance of being able to teach, or even lead (not interested in any personal gain just enjoy giving others experiences?
What BSAC courses would I have to undertake?
I've been told (maybe wrongly) that to progress through the grades in BSAC clubs can take a lifetime - do clubs run regular training sessions.

Gareth

13-12-2009, 18:50

I live in Torquay, and work in Exeter. I'll look you up.
As I said I want to be in a club, and think that most divers eventually get to that stage. What I was saying is that in the past BSAC has been a bit of a unknown and unless you really want it its a scary and worrying prospect to go from a Padi system to BSAC.

May be you can help with a few questions? (Please)

If I move across to BSAC, where do i stand on crossover from Padi DM?
My enjoyment in diving comes from learning an I really want to teach, is there any chance of being able to teach, or even lead (not interested in any personal gain just enjoy giving others experiences?
What BSAC courses would I have to undertake?
I've been told (maybe wrongly) that to progress through the grades in BSAC clubs can take a lifetime - do clubs run regular training sessions.

If you where to join a BSAC branch, initially you dive on your exisiting PADI diving qualification. i.e. the restrictions are those placed on you by PADI.

If I move across to BSAC, where do i stand on crossover from Padi DM?
Follow the link (http://www.bsac.com/core/core_picker/download.asp?id=10131) to see the BSAC crossover.
Basically, this is the starting point to continue your training with the BSAC, it is not an equivelent. In this case Diveleader. There would be some 'fill in lessons' to complete prior to starting the next qualification. Things like the BSAC 88 decompression tables.

Actually AD is a very hard qualification to achieve in most branches, personally, I would suggest that you complete the Diveleader qualification, for most branches this is reletively straight forward.

My enjoyment in diving comes from learning an I really want to teach, is there any chance of being able to teach, or even lead (not interested in any personal gain just enjoy giving others experiences?
What BSAC courses would I have to undertake?
The way to instructor in the BSAC is via the IFC (instructor Foundation Course) (http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=606&sectionTitle=Become+an+Instructor).
The entry requirement is Sports Diver. This teaches the basic skills that a diving instructor needs. It is a course, not an assessment, on completion you can teach in branch under supervision of an NQI (Nationally Qualified Instructor).
To progress, you need to have completed Dive leader. In truth, you have the equivelence of Diveleader, so could attend & progress without further training. Although, being familier with the BSAC 'way' wouldprobably be helpful (this could be achieved by sitting in on theory lessonsif you get the opportunity).
To progress further you need to complete the Theory instructor exam (TIE), the Openwater Instructor course (OWIC) & the Practical Instructor exam (PIE) (& a theory multi guess paper).

Theory Instructor (TI) = IFC + TIE + Theory paper
Practical Instructor (PI)= IFC +OWIC + PIE + Theory paper
Open Water Instructor (OWI) = IFC + OWIC + PIE +TIE + theory paper.

The first full instructor grade (NQI) is OWIC, the other two TI or PI are steps toward this qualification, which can be taken in any order.

I've been told (maybe wrongly) that to progress through the grades in BSAC clubs can take a lifetime - do clubs run regular training sessions
This is very dependent on the branch. Some branch have very active training programs & are well resourced with active instructors. Others don't. They prehaps only go diving. Similarly, the higher diving grades become harder for branches. Advanced diver, requires an Advanced Instructor to teach elements of it.
Don't join the first bracnh you see, talk to them about your asperations & how they can help, then do the same to the branch down the road. Basically interview the branches, until you find theone that best suits your requirements, don't forget the personalities, you want people you can spend time with.

Hope this helps

Gareth

Gasgow

13-12-2009, 19:09

If you where to join a BSAC branch, initially you dive on your exisiting PADI diving qualification. i.e. the restrictions are those placed on you by PADI.

If I move across to BSAC, where do i stand on crossover from Padi DM?
Follow the link (http://www.bsac.com/core/core_picker/download.asp?id=10131) to see the BSAC crossover.
Basically, this is the starting point to continue your training with the BSAC, it is not an equivelent. In this case Diveleader. There would be some 'fill in lessons' to complete prior to starting the next qualification. Things like the BSAC 88 decompression tables.

Actually AD is a very hard qualification to achieve in most branches, personally, I would suggest that you complete the Diveleader qualification, for most branches this is reletively straight forward.

My enjoyment in diving comes from learning an I really want to teach, is there any chance of being able to teach, or even lead (not interested in any personal gain just enjoy giving others experiences?
What BSAC courses would I have to undertake?
The way to instructor in the BSAC is via the IFC (instructor Foundation Course) (http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=606&sectionTitle=Become+an+Instructor).
The entry requirement is Sports Diver. This teaches the basic skills that a diving instructor needs. It is a course, not an assessment, on completion you can teach in branch under supervision of an NQI (Nationally Qualified Instructor).
To progress, you need to have completed Dive leader. In truth, you have the equivelence of Diveleader, so could attend & progress without further training. Although, being familier with the BSAC 'way' wouldprobably be helpful (this could be achieved by sitting in on theory lessonsif you get the opportunity).
To progress further you need to complete the Theory instructor exam (TIE), the Openwater Instructor course (OWIC) & the Practical Instructor exam (PIE) (& a theory multi guess paper).

Theory Instructor (TI) = IFC + TIE + Theory paper
Practical Instructor (PI)= IFC +OWIC + PIE + Theory paper
Open Water Instructor (OWI) = IFC + OWIC + PIE +TIE + theory paper.

The first full instructor grade (NQI) is OWIC, the other two TI or PI are steps toward this qualification, which can be taken in any order.

I've been told (maybe wrongly) that to progress through the grades in BSAC clubs can take a lifetime - do clubs run regular training sessions
This is very dependent on the branch. Some branch have very active training programs & are well resourced with active instructors. Others don't. They prehaps only go diving. Similarly, the higher diving grades become harder for branches. Advanced diver, requires an Advanced Instructor to teach elements of it.
Don't join the first bracnh you see, talk to them about your asperations & how they can help, then do the same to the branch down the road. Basically interview the branches, until you find theone that best suits your requirements, don't forget the personalities, you want people you can spend time with.

Hope this helps

Gareth

Gareth,

Thank you for your very informative post, I'll start to look for local clubs.

Gareth

13-12-2009, 19:26

Gareth,

Thank you for your very informative post, I'll start to look for local clubs.

Gasgow.

No two BSAC branches are the same. We all teach the same core training program, but our interests, resources, members & location give each individual branch its own identity.
You may find your 'perfect branch', if you move to another part of the country it is unlikely that you will find a branch that is the same, however, the differences may well make this new branch perfect too, but in a different way.

There will certainly there will be branches that won't suit you, a candidate for your worst branch ever, however, they may be the perfect branch for someone else.

The terror stories are normally because expectation doesn't meet reallity. I would prefer 20 people not to join my branch, than them join & be dissatisfied. We always send them to visit the local branches, sometimes they comeback, sometimes they don't, I hope they are happy where they finally settle.

Gareth

Edward

13-12-2009, 20:02

Dave Whitlow

13-12-2009, 21:27

A clarification/correction here there is NO crossover. As a PADI DM you have three choices:

1. Dive with a BSAC Branch on your PADI DM qualification and continue training with PADI.
2. Dive with a BSAC Branch on your PADI DM qualification and commence BSAC Advanced Diver diver training; and/or BSAC Instructor Training (the Instructor Foundation Course).
3. Dive with a BSAC Branch on your PADI DM qualification and don’t do any training.

Is it not reasonable to:

4. Dive with a BSAC Branch on your PADI DM qualification and complete BSAC Dive Leader training?

This would enable inclusion in the full range of BSAC branch diving and provide a start on the instruction track when not all branches can support AD qualification.

allen

13-12-2009, 22:22

Gareth

13-12-2009, 23:24

A clarification/correction here there is NO crossover. As a PADI DM you have three choices:

1. Dive with a BSAC Branch on your PADI DM qualification and continue training with PADI.
2. Dive with a BSAC Branch on your PADI DM qualification and commence BSAC Advanced Diver diver training; and/or BSAC Instructor Training (the Instructor Foundation Course).
3. Dive with a BSAC Branch on your PADI DM qualification and don’t do any training.

Its entirely up to you.

Regards

Edward

I thought I was clear that the Salt provides equivelence as a starting point for further training rather than a crossover qualification. Edwards clarification is accurate & more detailed.

Edward

14-12-2009, 09:19

Is it not reasonable to:

4. Dive with a BSAC Branch on your PADI DM qualification and complete BSAC Dive Leader training?

This would enable inclusion in the full range of BSAC branch diving and provide a start on the instruction track when not all branches can support AD qualification.

It can be done, but why?

One of the criticisms I keep getting of BSAC is our none recognition of other agency qualifications by Branches. Asking a PADI DM to undertake Dive Leader training, when our website is clear that a PADI DM can (if they so wish) commence Advance Diver training. The other agency AD training pack will cover the bits they would not have done from OC, SD and DL.

We were discussing this aspect of Branch attitudes yesterday, after diving, at the South Scotland Regional training session.

Regards

Edward

Dave Whitlow

14-12-2009, 09:38

It can be done, but why?

As noted elsewhere, not all branches can support AD training and progression to AD might remain incomplete for some time.

DL can be done in most branches and would provide the DM, should they want it, with a BSAC qualification with more depth, deco, nitrox and aspects of dive planning not previously done.

One of the criticisms I keep getting of BSAC is our none recognition of other agency qualifications by Branches.

Recognition is fine and they can dive to their existing qualification but should they want to start instructing the sooner they have have a BSAC grade the better.

Asking a PADI DM to undertake Dive Leader training, when our website is clear that a PADI DM can (if they so wish) commence Advance Diver training. The other agency AD training pack will cover the bits they would not have done from OC, SD and DL.

We were discussing this aspect of Branch attitudes yesterday, after diving, at the South Scotland Regional training session.

I see it not so much as what they might be asked to do, or what the website says, it is about the choices they can be offered. They, like many who have reached DL, may decide they do not wish proceed to AD. In that case their is a benefit in completing DL.

Nigel Hewitt

14-12-2009, 09:38

It can be done, but why?
A 50 meter, deco card with built in nitrox?

DM is 30m with rescue stuff and added nurse-maid skills.

Gareth

14-12-2009, 11:15

It can be done, but why?

Regards

Edward

Prior to closing, my local dive shop offered PADI/BSAC courses. They used to run one DL course every year, which was predominently attended by PADI DM's, it was always extremely popular, at commercial rates!.

Gareth

Gasgow

14-12-2009, 11:43

Prior to closing, my local dive shop offered PADI/BSAC courses. They used to run one DL course every year, which was predominently attended by PADI DM's, it was always extremely popular, at commercial rates!.

Gareth

Hi As I started this I thought I'd just give my point of view.....

I'd like to go on to AD and then hopefully some instructors courses, Having said that if a DL course came up before hand I would certainly do it as I want to know 'the BSAC way'.

I'm not a 'badge collector' I would do it because I like to learn and believe in education.

Attending a DL course may open my eyes to a different way of thinking, it may not, but untill I do it I wouldn't know.

The reason for crossing over to BSAC is for the club atmosphere and the fact that I have a desire to teach. I do not need nor want any financial gain I just enjoy it. I could carry on down the PADI route but again as there is no commercial wants I'd rather not step on My previous Padi LDS instructors toes and would preffer to offer training within a club environment FOC.

Whilst teaching in the future is important to me, I also want to DIVE and the club would provide that support - at the moment I have 5 or 6 regular dive buddies but struggle to get any of them in the water when I want to go.

In the mean time I just wanted an assurance that in joining a BSAC club the chance to progress to instructor levels would be available without starting again from scratch.

I agree with Gareth, weather or not the club felt I need to take DL - I would do it anyway, getting down the pool or training cetre on a tuesday night beats eastenders any time. :p

Gareth

14-12-2009, 12:11

In the mean time I just wanted an assurance that in joining a BSAC club the chance to progress to instructor levels would be available without starting again from scratch.

. :p

Snipped the relevent bit.

I think the last few post should confirm that there is no impediment to you becoming a BSAC instrcutor with you existing qualifications, basically two instructor courses (IFC & OWIC) & two exams (the theory paper is normally done on a TI but can be done on a PI if you so request).

One other thing, as a general rule, BSAC is not prescriptive in its teaching, so as an example, there isn't a BSAC way of teaching mask clearing, just that it must be safe & effective, if so its valid.
There are certain things that are obviously different, like the BSAC 88's compared with the PADI RDP.
There are less obvious, BSAC instructors 'tend' to use BAR (Bouyancy, Air, Releases) for buddy checks, SEEDS (Safety, Equipment, Exercise, Discipline, Signals), for briefings, but even these aren't cast in stone.
There is often a blurring becaise many of us are multi agency, PADI, BSAC, NAUI, GUE, TDI etc. We have a tendancey to bring the best of each agency with us into our branches, our diving & our teaching. IN fact you will find the good instructors are always on the look out for a new way of teaching something or a new skill to teach, the biggest thieves are the NI's:D .

Best I can say is find yourself a branch. If you were in my part of the country I would be very keen to get you to join the branch.... then I could put you to work:) .

Gareth