Post BSAC registration course recognition [Archive]

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

07-03-2004, 19:58

I'm a diver who has recently qualified with a NON BSAC organisation in Advanced Nitrox Gas Diving. Does BSAC recognise this qualification and allow me to dive within its constraints even though I completed the course post joining BSAC. Where can I get further infomation from regarding what I can and can't do from the BSAC website.

Hi Dave

You didn't say which agency but we most certainly recognise Nitrox training from the major ones. We wont actually give you an equivalent sticker but your training should be recognised within the branch and we will probably treat it as equivalent for entry into the BSAC advanced courses. See link for more details.

There are thousands of pages and documents on the BSAC web sites, the best place to start is the main www.bsac.org home page. There's a search box at the top of the page, we index all of our information via a search engine. I found your info (both HTML and PDF) with the term "Nitrox Equivalents" in the serach box.

HTH

Keith L

john kendall

08-03-2004, 17:49

Ian Wigg

09-03-2004, 13:08

:=I'm a diver who has recently qualified with a NON BSAC organisation in Advanced Nitrox Gas Diving. Does BSAC recognise this qualification and allow me to dive within its constraints even though I completed the course post joining BSAC. Where can I get further infomation from regarding what I can and can't do from the BSAC website.

Although you rqualification should be recognised, be aware that if you wish to dive with a BSAC club, then you have to dive within BSAC's SDPs. And so if the limits of your Nitrox Qual are looser than BSAC's you must stay within BSAC's guidlines.

HTH
John

Am I correct to take this to mean that whilst my TDI Basic Nitrox certifies me to 40% I can only dive to a maximum of 32% (BSAC Basic Nitrox limit) when diving on a club dive?

PeteM

09-03-2004, 14:03

:=:=I'm a diver who has recently qualified with a NON BSAC organisation in Advanced Nitrox Gas Diving. Does BSAC recognise this qualification and allow me to dive within its constraints even though I completed the course post joining BSAC. Where can I get further infomation from regarding what I can and can't do from the BSAC website.
:=
:=Although you rqualification should be recognised, be aware that if you wish to dive with a BSAC club, then you have to dive within BSAC's SDPs. And so if the limits of your Nitrox Qual are looser than BSAC's you must stay within BSAC's guidlines.
:=
:=HTH
:=John

Am I correct to take this to mean that whilst my TDI Basic Nitrox certifies me to 40% I can only dive to a maximum of 32% (BSAC Basic Nitrox limit) when diving on a club dive?

No because
1 - BSAC basic nitrox allows you to go up to 40%
2 - The external qualification is taken up to the limit of the SDP not the supposed equivalent BSAC qualifiction

Pete

Ian Wigg

10-03-2004, 13:54

:=:=:=I'm a diver who has recently qualified with a NON BSAC organisation in Advanced Nitrox Gas Diving. Does BSAC recognise this qualification and allow me to dive within its constraints even though I completed the course post joining BSAC. Where can I get further infomation from regarding what I can and can't do from the BSAC website.
:=:=
:=:=Although you rqualification should be recognised, be aware that if you wish to dive with a BSAC club, then you have to dive within BSAC's SDPs. And so if the limits of your Nitrox Qual are looser than BSAC's you must stay within BSAC's guidlines.
:=:=
:=:=HTH
:=:=John
:=
:=Am I correct to take this to mean that whilst my TDI Basic Nitrox certifies me to 40% I can only dive to a maximum of 32% (BSAC Basic Nitrox limit) when diving on a club dive?

No because
1 - BSAC basic nitrox allows you to go up to 40%
2 - The external qualification is taken up to the limit of the SDP not the supposed equivalent BSAC qualifiction

Pete

Are you certain about the 40% for BSAC basic nitrox as, looking at the sylabus, it appears to only cover up to 36%.

Your second point answers my question - thanks.

PeteM

10-03-2004, 14:39

Are you certain about the 40% for BSAC basic nitrox as, looking at the sylabus, it appears to only cover up to 36%.

It covers uop to 36% using tables but 40% when using a dive computer (both no stop only)

j Abbott

10-03-2004, 16:34

:=Are you certain about the 40% for BSAC basic nitrox as, looking at the sylabus, it appears to only cover up to 36%.

It covers uop to 36% using tables but 40% when using a dive computer (both no stop only)

I agree that your TDI Basic Nx Cse should allow you to dive within BSAC up to 40%. The depth of instruction covered on the course is somewhere between the BSAC's Basic and Advanced courses. You won't have covered the BSAC nitrox tables and should get familiar with them if you are going to use them; again, no reason why you should not dive to your 40% training/certification on tables.

I don't think the BSAC Basic Nitrox course covers anything other than the standard mixes of 32 and 36. Divers with this qualification should restrict themselves to the use of these mixes whether they are using tables or computer.

Cheers

John

TerryH

10-03-2004, 17:03

I don't think the BSAC Basic Nitrox course covers anything other than the standard mixes of 32 and 36. Divers with this qualification should restrict themselves to the use of these mixes whether they are using tables or computer.

Yep. Basic = 32% & 36%
Advanced upto 50%

I think Pete is confusing max allowed prior to O2 cleaning kit
etc, which is 40%.

TerryH

Mike Halligan

10-03-2004, 19:00

I think Pete is confusing max allowed prior to O2 cleaning kit
etc, which is 40%.

Terry,

I'd take a different line. My guess is that Ian's expecting to use his certification, and possibly DSAT tables, which run to 40% Oxygen and are specifically restricted to O2pp of 1.40.

I believe (I sure hope) the BSAC Basic Nitrox course syllabus is irrelevant to both Ian and myself.

Regards,

Mike
TDI BAsic Nitrox

PeteM

11-03-2004, 09:21

Yep. Basic = 32% & 36%
Advanced upto 50%

I think Pete is confusing max allowed prior to O2 cleaning kit
etc, which is 40%.

Nope but I accept I might be confusing it with a rival course

TerryH

11-03-2004, 10:45

I'd take a different line. My guess is that Ian's expecting to use his certification, and possibly DSAT tables, which run to 40% Oxygen and are specifically restricted to O2pp of 1.40.

I believe (I sure hope) the BSAC Basic Nitrox course syllabus is irrelevant to both Ian and myself.

Regards,

Mike
TDI BAsic Nitrox

Err not really Mike I was replying to Petes comment .....
"1 - BSAC basic nitrox allows you to go up to 40%"
Which is wrong as it only allows you to go to 36%.

We do however talk about max before O2 cleaning, which is
40%. That's the only way you may get confused IMO.

The BSAC syllabus is far from irrelevant as it that syllabus
that you will be diving to on a BSAC boat.
So although you are TDI trained and may have a higher
acceptable percentage, BSAC give you an equivilent grade and
to be ok with insurance etc. you have to dive within the BSAC
limits. So if DSAT say 40% and Ian's course equates to BSAC
Basic then he will be set at 36%.

IMO this is all political nonsense anyway. Why we cant buddy up
a TDI/DSAT 40%max with a BSAC Advanced 50% max and both do 40% I dont know. Still until they change the rules etc, you crossover and stick with the BSAC equivilents on BSAC boats.

TerryH
BSAC Nitrox Inst.

J Abbott

11-03-2004, 14:48

The BSAC syllabus is far from irrelevant as it that syllabus
that you will be diving to on a BSAC boat.
So although you are TDI trained and may have a higher
acceptable percentage, BSAC give you an equivilent grade and
to be ok with insurance etc. you have to dive within the BSAC
limits. So if DSAT say 40% and Ian's course equates to BSAC
Basic then he will be set at 36%.

BSAC do not fully recognize other agencies Nitrox training as being equivalent to the BSAC courses. They acknowledge that with the different approaches and priorities of each agency it is not possible to accurately match the different courses. The TDI Basic Nitrox is not equivalent to the BSAC Nitrox Diver qualification. The limitations of the BSAC Nitrox Diver are not applicable individuals trained with other agencies.

BSAC state ?Any BSAC member who holds a Nitrox Diver qualification issued by one of the Nitrox training agencies recognised by BSAC (these are currently ANDI, PADI, IANDT and TDI) may use Nitrox on Branch diving activities ensuring they stay within the SDP recommendations.?

Given that the SDPs simply apply a PPO2 limit of 1.4 Bar, then people diving within BSAC using an external agencies certification can dive to the limits of their training and the 1.4 Bar limit. Someone trained to TDI Basic Nitrox can use mixes to a 40% limit when diving within the BSAC.

IMO this is all political nonsense anyway. Why we cant buddy up
a TDI/DSAT 40%max with a BSAC Advanced 50% max and both do 40% I dont know.

We can.

Cheers

John

Mike Halligan

11-03-2004, 15:12

The BSAC syllabus is far from irrelevant as it that syllabus
that you will be diving to on a BSAC boat.
So although you are TDI trained and may have a higher
acceptable percentage, BSAC give you an equivilent grade and
to be ok with insurance etc. you have to dive within the BSAC
limits. So if DSAT say 40% and Ian's course equates to BSAC
Basic then he will be set at 36%.

Terry,

I'm grateful for the enlightenment you provide. I must apply serious, detailed investigation by April 1, subscription day. Of course, with qualification for life, I don't have to put up with the political nonsense you highlight so clearly. So, if the BSAC wishes to be as silly as you suggest, I can readily walk.

I fail to see as a BSAC OWI how I can dive to a BSAC syllabus I have no knowledge of. (I didn't open the BSAC Basic Nitrox course notes because I received a far better offer from a PADI Professional.)

Facts (in my perception) -
1: I'm TDI trained, certified, equipped and experienced to 40%.
2: the BSAC has given me nothing in this context.
3: the BSAC did offer to sell me equivalence, in order that it may then sell me its "AND" course.
4: the BSAC demands that I purchase a second set of course notes and tables to attend AND.
4: the BSAC's offer to treat was not taken up.
5: Ian's course and mine needs no equating, it exists of its own right.
6: You say the BSAC seeks to prevent Ian or I exceeding 36%.

If your contention (6 above) is true, then I submit "Door, OWI: OWI, Door" may become another way of putting it.

Kindest regards and thanks for the tip-off,

Mike

Ben Field

11-03-2004, 15:49

> If your contention (6 above) is true, then I submit "Door,
> OWI: OWI, Door" may become another way of putting it.

Hmm, I think this has been blown out of all proportion, I have been searching in vain, as I can't find the link on the BSAC site.
With my IANTD Adv Nitrox, TDI Extended Range and TDI Adv Trimix I simply sent a copy along with the correct form (which is what I can't find) and I was supplied with a sticker for my QRB which the DO signs to say you have that qualification. I'm sure that I examined all the options as I time and found that even as a lowly AD I could dive pretty much as I wished within the boundarys of my multiple certs.

What you are alluding to is BSAC NOT allowing you to dive certain mixes, surely the issue you are really wanting to know is wether your insurance cover will hold if you do as I'm sure you and alot of other people dive mixes above the reccomendations on club dives. IIRC 100% deco gas has appeared in the background in a picture used in DIVE to explain some worthy BSAC point! ;)

BEN

Mike Halligan

11-03-2004, 18:51

What you are alluding to is BSAC NOT allowing you to dive certain mixes, surely the issue you are really wanting to know is wether your insurance cover will hold if you do as I'm sure you and alot of other people dive mixes above the reccomendations on club dives. IIRC 100% deco gas has appeared in the background in a picture used in DIVE to explain some worthy BSAC point! ;)

No, Ben, the issue that concerns me, one that Terry has discussed and the one I suspected was exercising Ian is no more or less than whether I, as another lowly AD with no more than TDI Basic Nitrox, am to be denied the full benefit of my qualification because he (or more correctly if the BSAC) considers me a BSAC Basic Nitrox Diver, something I patently am not.

I really do not much care, but I do very much wish to know.

Mike ;-)

john kendall

11-03-2004, 20:50

:=What you are alluding to is BSAC NOT allowing you to dive certain mixes, surely the issue you are really wanting to know is wether your insurance cover will hold if you do as I'm sure you and alot of other people dive mixes above the reccomendations on club dives. IIRC 100% deco gas has appeared in the background in a picture used in DIVE to explain some worthy BSAC point! ;)

No, Ben, the issue that concerns me, one that Terry has discussed and the one I suspected was exercising Ian is no more or less than whether I, as another lowly AD with no more than TDI Basic Nitrox, am to be denied the full benefit of my qualification because he (or more correctly if the BSAC) considers me a BSAC Basic Nitrox Diver, something I patently am not.

I really do not much care, but I do very much wish to know.

<a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpubt9.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpubt9.htm</a>

Quote: Any BSAC member who holds a Nitrox Diver qualification issued by one of the Nitrox training agencies recognised by BSAC (these are currently ANDI, PADI, IANDT and TDI) may use Nitrox on Branch diving activities ensuring they stay within the safe diving practices recommendations.

John

TerryH

12-03-2004, 00:42

I'm grateful for the enlightenment you provide. I must apply serious, detailed investigation by April 1, subscription day. Of course, with qualification for life, I don't have to put up with the political nonsense you highlight so clearly. So, if the BSAC wishes to be as silly as you suggest, I can readily walk.

I fail to see as a BSAC OWI how I can dive to a BSAC syllabus I have no knowledge of. (I didn't open the BSAC Basic Nitrox course notes because I received a far better offer from a PADI Professional.)

Facts (in my perception) -
1: I'm TDI trained, certified, equipped and experienced to 40%.
2: the BSAC has given me nothing in this context.
3: the BSAC did offer to sell me equivalence, in order that it may then sell me its "AND" course.
4: the BSAC demands that I purchase a second set of course notes and tables to attend AND.
4: the BSAC's offer to treat was not taken up.
5: Ian's course and mine needs no equating, it exists of its own right.
6: You say the BSAC seeks to prevent Ian or I exceeding 36%.

If your contention (6 above) is true, then I submit "Door, OWI: OWI, Door" may become another way of putting it.

Kindest regards and thanks for the tip-off,

Mike.
I really cant see why you are getting all hot and bothered over
4%, but .....

BSAC dont know that you are an OWI or AD. As far as they are
concerned you are a TDI Nitrox diver. That's 10 dives max or
even as part of your OW course! So OW + 5 = TDI basic!

Your TDI cert does indeed (in the non-BSAC world) allow you
to do 40%. Unfortunatley as you have not got TDI deco
procedures, it will be a non-deco world. Unless of course you
use that BSAC deco training you've had since Sport diver!

So maybe that BSAC training was useful after all?

Mind you, I did PADI EaNx (40%) before BSAC Adv and was also
equated and limited to 36%. BSAC Adv? Well that gives me 50%
max. If I was TDI, I would be on 100% by now.

I am in a BSAC club diving with BSAC divers. If we get the odd
mate/guest who is TDI, then they have no qualms about diving to
BSAC limits. It really is no big deal at this level.

There does come a time of course when the demographic shifts
and the boat is populated with more BSAC + TDI/IANTD guys and
they want to do upto 100%, accelerated deco & EAD. None of
which is currently allowed by BSAC.

Now we are getting into dodgy ground and IMO you really do
have to make a choice.

Personally I'd like to go with what we actualy do now for
diving. Stick a DL with a Sport diver and they both do 35m
even though the DL is 50m rated.

Stick a TDI basic with a BSAC basic and its 36% (as now), but
with another TDI diver on a BSAC boat why not 40%?

I'm sure that many DO/DM's do this now. I cant because we are
a Uni club and have to absoulutely spot on.

Besides as and OWI/AD you should know all this anyway.

TerryH

PeteM

12-03-2004, 08:51

Mind you, I did PADI EaNx (40%) before BSAC Adv and was also
equated and limited to 36%.

Terry can you post your source for that as I can not find anything

Cheers

Pete

TerryH

12-03-2004, 12:27

:=Mind you, I did PADI EaNx (40%) before BSAC Adv and was also
:=equated and limited to 36%.

Terry can you post your source for that as I can not find anything

Cheers

Pete

Tricky one this as the water is a bit murky, but ....
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpubt9.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpubt9.htm</a>

Gives you ....
Any BSAC member who holds a Nitrox Diver qualification issued
by one of the Nitrox training agencies recognised by BSAC
(these are currently ANDI, PADI, IANDT and TDI) may use Nitrox
on Branch diving activities ensuring they stay within the safe
diving practices recommendations.

And looking at said diving practices ....
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/sdpip.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/sdpip.htm</a>

Nitrox
(snip) Properly trained and qualified BSAC members are
permitted to use Nitrox on Branch dives, with the approval of
the Dive Marshal. ........The BSAC recommends a maximum partial
pressure for oxygen exposure when diving of 1.4 bar.

and

Oxygen
(snip) The use of Nitrox mixtures containing up to 80% oxygen
is permitted for diving by properly trained and qualified BSAC
members. Mixtures containing more than 80% oxygen are NOT
recommended for use by recreational divers.

So your TDI diver is now stuck with 1.4, but what of that 100%
ruling?

To dive 80% even, you need to be BSAC ER.
TDI Adv gives you 100% and nobody (in there right mind) would
suggest that the two courses are equivilent.

But does that mean your TDI Adv can do 80% (max BSAC) over
your BSAC Adv (true equivilent) 50%?

Way too much of a minefield.

What we need is a table that sets out BSAC reccommended
equivilents, so DM's can make objective decisons.
Whoops, looks like they have one.......
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpubt9.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpubt9.htm</a>

So now we can work out who can dive with who. We know that
we have to max at 1.4 and not exceed 80%, but what of the mix?
Is it ok to have a PADI EaNx (40%) diver 4% over his BSAC
equivilent on the same boat as his BSAC mates?

BSAC say 1.4 max. They also say these are the equivilent.
They DONT say that you can dive to the max of your agencies
reccomendations. Until then we have to (we do you dont) make
the assumption that an equivilent (as per 1.4) IS an equivilent
and that includes max %. So logic says that if you are PADI
ExNx I'm stuck at 36%.

This was explained to me years a go before I became a club
officer and nothing has changed to make me do any different.

Rgds
TerryH

PS: I got knocked back from 42m (PADI Rescue) to 20m (BSAC
Sport) on joining BSAC. Didnt stop me going deeper, just didnt
do it in the club. That had to wait until I had done progression
and DL.

PeteM

12-03-2004, 12:59

[snipped lots of stuff - read the previous post]

I think you are making 2 + 2 = 5

Nothing in what you have quoted says anything other than "must dive within qualifications and SDP".

The comment about RD going to SD is a red herring because the SALT procedures make a definite point of it being a transfer of grade so you are not diving as a RD but as a SD, whereas the TDI Diver is in no way diving as a BSAC Nitrox diver.

Pete

TerryH

12-03-2004, 13:56

I think you are making 2 + 2 = 5

Probably

Nothing in what you have quoted says anything other than "must dive within qualifications and SDP".

Yep, but that leaves a black hole and it's the DO/DM that has to fill it.

The comment about RD going to SD is a red herring because the SALT procedures make a definite point of it being a transfer of grade so you are not diving as a RD but as a SD, whereas the TDI Diver is in no way diving as a BSAC Nitrox diver.

Wasnt meant to be, just pointing out that if you dive by ANY
other agency rules/regs etc. you will be downgraded.

I'm NOT trying to set out the world according to Terry here
Pete. If you (and your DO) interpret the rules/regs as saying
that you can dive upto the max of your other agency % then
fine. That's your interpretation.

As I have said so many times it's a cracked record. I cant take
that chance. BSAC have published (for whatever reason) an
equivilency table. I have to justify my planning decisions for
30 trips a year, including 2x overseas trips involving 18-22
year old students.

I can
a) Treat the BSAC table as an absolute and simply use
equivilents against a BSAC baseline.
or
b) "Fudge" (BSAC HQ term BTW) the issue and ignore that BSAC
have equated another agency grade and then supposedly allowed
this "other " grade to exceed BSAC limits!

Hmm. No Brainer. I'll go with the safe a) option.
B&W and fully ok with all the powers that be's (mine at least)
risk assessments.

TerryH

PeteM

12-03-2004, 15:55

As I have said so many times it's a cracked record. I cant take
that chance. BSAC have published (for whatever reason) an
equivilency table.

Where?

TerryH

12-03-2004, 16:14

:=As I have said so many times it's a cracked record. I cant take
:=that chance. BSAC have published (for whatever reason) an
:=equivilency table.

Where?

<a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpubt9.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpubt9.htm</a>

PeteM

12-03-2004, 17:15

:=Where?

http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpubt9.htm

Thanks

I still think you are doing 2 + 2 = 5 but understand where you are coming from

Mike Halligan

12-03-2004, 18:56

Thanks, John.

So it really is as simple as I understood a year or more ago. You've included the only paragraph of the Tech paper relevant to me and SDP endorses the same understanding.

I may use 40%.
I may use EAD to amend the RDP,
I must not exceed 1.4,
I must plan and dive no-stop,
I'm advised to keep below 1.4, and to remember '5 at 5', which I am more than competent to adapt at 6.

If a buddy is using other than 21%, we must work out a safe dive plan taking account of percentages in use. Otherwise, my mix is the limiting factor.

Very helpful and I'm grateful

Mike

TerryH

12-03-2004, 19:26

Mike Halligan

12-03-2004, 19:27

Mike.
I really cant see why you are getting all hot and bothered over
4%, but .....

Terry, I'm not. I really don't care one iota, but I did want to know. Does Kevin Wilson's logo "DILLIGAF" mean anything to you?

I was ADO when SALT was introduced and, as TO, I have dealt several times with SDC equivalence. However, whilst I have no current interest in an extension of my TDI Basic Nitrox, I do not see why I should be prevented by regulation, prejudice or politics from using my qualification to the full. At a later date, I may be persuaded to take the TDI route to its logical conclusion, but that will be when I see justification and in a sight more comfortable place than UK.

Your TDI cert does indeed (in the non-BSAC world) allow you
to do 40%. Unfortunatley as you have not got TDI deco
procedures, it will be a non-deco world. Unless of course you
use that BSAC deco training you've had since Sport diver!
No, I'm not into duplicity, but in truth I just see no appeal in hanging around interminably on a line.

There does come a time of course when the demographic shifts
and the boat is populated with more BSAC + TDI/IANTD guys and
they want to do upto 100%, accelerated deco & EAD. None of
which is currently allowed by BSAC.
Is EAD prohibited for those trained in it, then? Is this BSAC's prohibition or Terry's? Chapter & verse, please.

Now we are getting into dodgy ground and IMO you really do
have to make a choice.
My choice to remain with BSAC was made. However, you keep introducing complications that may change that choice, we shall see.

Personally I'd like to go with what we actualy do now for
diving. Stick a DL with a Sport diver and they both do 35m
even though the DL is 50m rated.

Stick a TDI basic with a BSAC basic and its 36% (as now), but
with another TDI diver on a BSAC boat why not 40%?
Well, boogaloo, but what is this BSAC boat hang-up?

Besides as and OWI/AD you should know all this anyway.
Now who's off-syllabus? I asked for clarification of your post out of personal interest. OWI and/or AD status do not imply Nx knowledge, or an obligation to learn.

Interested,

Mike

terryh

17-03-2004, 17:27

Ok let's cut to the chase. Bottom line stuff ....

You have 2x divers diving with you for the first time in YOUR
BSAC club. Both are old PADI AOW and rated to 42m max.

Diver 1 decides to join the branch.
Diver 2 decides to dive as a guest.

So diver 1 is knocked back to 20m via SALT,
but is Diver 2 ok to 42m (albeit a non-deco 42m)?

or

is Diver 2 also knocked back?

What's your awnser Mike?

TerryH

Mike Halligan

17-03-2004, 18:14

Terry,

I fail to see the relevance of your question to the substance of this thread, however since you ask .......

You have 2x divers diving with you for the first time in YOUR
BSAC club. Both are old PADI AOW and rated to 42m max.

Diver 1 decides to join the branch.
Diver 2 decides to dive as a guest.

So diver 1 is knocked back to 20m via SALT,
No, knocked back to 20m as similar to OD (via Table of Similar Qualifications)and an unknown quantity even so. Whether or not this person has embarked on SD course and would therefore hold a SALT is not relevant.

but is Diver 2 ok to 42m (albeit a non-deco 42m)?
No, this person is also similar to OD according to published guidance of the BSAC. They are another unknown quantity.

The pair, if pair they are, may be able to demonstrate currency to a depth greater than 20m and elect to divorce themselves from the BSAC DM, in which case I don't see what I could do about it. If they are IMHO adequately equipped and experienced at a suitable site, then I would not necessarily object if they chose to dispense with my advice and control.

This is just as PADI operators consider my equivalence, experience, equipment and currency when I go diving with them.

All of this in my personal opinion as putative DM and has no relation to any diver or instructor qualification or Branch office. And before you go on, I do not agree that the acceptability of TDI nitrox as entry qualification for BSAC Advanced Nitrox implies its equivalence to BSAC Basic Nitrox or that it assumes to those so qualified restrictions applying to BSAC Basic Nitrox holders.

Regards,
Mike

terryh

17-03-2004, 21:24

Two points (+ one red herring).

Firstly you accept that regardless of circumstance (BSAC member
or not) you use the recognised equivilency table (SALT) to
treat both PADI OW divers as BSAC Ocean divers.

"knocked back to 20m as similar to OD (via Table of Similar Qualifications)and an unknown quantity even so. Whether or not this person has embarked on SD course and would therefore hold a SALT is not relevant."

"this person is also similar to OD according to published guidance of the BSAC. They are another unknown quantity."

So we have a published table which equates to a standard and
it's your job as DM to ensure (as much as possible) that these
divers confine there diving to that standard. Easy fix would be
to buddy them up to another BSAC diver and maintain that OD max
depth of 20m.

No brainer right? ANY other agency diver comes along.
We compare with SALT and treat as the BSAC equivilent. Easy.

So what of other agency Nitrox qualifications. Based on the
above scenario it should be an easy case of looking at the
BSAC equivient and applying those criteria. After all in the
same way that your PADI AOW got knocked back to 20m BSAC OD,
why not TDI Basic 40% knocked back to 36%/1.4?

You cant have it both ways. Either BSAC has laid down an
equivilency (which for litigation and insurance issues we
have to follow) or the whole lot is out the window and we use
whatever criteria is the flavour of the week.

TerryH

PS: Red herring .....
"This is just as PADI operators consider my equivalence, experience, equipment and currency when I go diving with them."

Right apart from equivilence.
PADI does have an equivilent, but it is soley to calculate the
entry requirement for it's courses.
So ....
A newly qualified BSAC Sport Diver would be able to do a PADI
AOW course, but the operator would not restict the diver to the
18m PADI OW equivilent, but allow him to dive upto the max
he had done so far, which may even have included his 35m
progression. It's almost the exact opposite of how BSAC do it.

Mike Halligan

18-03-2004, 16:07

Firstly you accept that regardless of circumstance (BSAC member
or not) you use the recognised equivilency table (SALT) to
treat both PADI OW divers as BSAC Ocean divers.
No, I don't. I might rely on the same Table of Similar Qualifications if it were to hand in order to arrive at my own decision but that table is not SALT. SALT applies only after a declared intent to embark on a course of BSAC training, and it creates a different status (the diver becomes a trainee) and thereby a new basis for DM limitation. In the absence of such an intention, and therefore no SALT, the DM ought IMHO use the Table to guide as to the first BSAC grade below that held in another place. i.e. the skills you can be sure were included among others in the training certified. However, currency, experience and site suitability should IMHO also come into play.

So we have a published table which equates to a standard and
it's your job as DM to ensure (as much as possible) that these
divers confine there diving to that standard. Easy fix would be
to buddy them up to another BSAC diver and maintain that OD max
depth of 20m.
The BSAC's grades are the standard, the published table does not equate to a standard. It is guidance for understanding training regimes not commonly known to the BSAC's DOs and DMs. I have a job, I am also willing to act as a DM for the good of all, but that is definitively not a job. DM activity, as I understand it, is aimed at promoting collaboration for the safety and enjoyment of the sport in so far as the DM can persuade others to listen to reason. In my experience, an easy fix is frequently wrong and sometimes counter-productive, so I tend to avoid them.

No brainer right? ANY other agency diver comes along.
We compare with SALT and treat as the BSAC equivilent. Easy.
It is not SALT, not equivalent and not easy.

So what of other agency Nitrox qualifications. Based on the
above scenario it should be an easy case of looking at the
BSAC equivient and applying those criteria. After all in the
same way that your PADI AOW got knocked back to 20m BSAC OD,
why not TDI Basic 40% knocked back to 36%/1.4?

You cant have it both ways. Either BSAC has laid down an
equivilency (which for litigation and insurance issues we
have to follow) or the whole lot is out the window and we use
whatever criteria is the flavour of the week.
So far, I have seen nothing to persuade me of a requirement that BSAC's DMs should treat TDI Basic as other than TDI Basic, until BSAC training to Advanced Nitrox has been completed when they must be treated as BSAC ANX. There is, as in SALT, credit for earlier learning when training. That is not AFAIK an equivalence. Neither is the only alternative anarchy, there could be acceptance that the BSAC is not the only certification agency.

PS: Red herring .....
:="This is just as PADI operators consider my equivalence, experience, equipment and currency when I go diving with them."
:=
Right apart from equivilence.
PADI does have an equivilent, but it is soley to calculate the
entry requirement for it's courses.
As, I submit, has the BSAC and I see no obligation to elevate guidance to the status of regulation.

Regards,

Mike